Discussion Locked

lock him up & throw away the keys

0 helpful
39 replies
Closed to new repliesThis discussion is closed. It stays readable, but it takes no new replies.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060329/D8GL0BKO7.html

Z. Moussaoui seems willing to die, eager to be remembered as a martyr. I'm for forcing him to endure a long, mundane stay in prison, and eventually dying of old age, not of religious fanaticism as he wishes. What do you think is a more appropriate punishment?

39 replies

by mjwx

Personally I am sick of govt (mostly US) fear mongering. I'm more worried about 1. Australian IR reforms 2. Getting some original and entertaining programs on the television. Seriously they?ve moved Stargate so late that I can?t get through an episode without a "call me now" add, but law and bloody order is on 4 times a bloody week. The sheep will watch whatever, at least give the rest of us something decent like a good britcom (not little Brittan, I can?t stand that show).

by Member 25348569

Agreed. We have reached the depths of "catchphrase comedy". Kill 'em all. Now! "Computer says no" aagh!

As for this particular terrorist, who cares? There are millions more where he came from and making this one a martyr will change no ones mind.

by absolutely

neilb@: "There are millions more where he came from and making this one a martyr will change no ones mind."

I agree, in a population where "a message" can just as well mean decapitation or a piece of paper with writing on it, one lethal injection of a guy planning to help kill hundreds or thousands is not very impressive. The most profound statement we in the United States can make is that when we go to war, it is because we [b]do[/b] value life, and when we catch a rascal, we don't end its life to "send a message", we civilly prevent it from doing more mischief. Except in Texas, which I think we should trade to Mexico in exchange for one of their beach resorts & the Jose Cuervo distilleries, if Mexico is gullible enough to take such a swindle. I'd throw in the whole Bush family for free, but I'm afraid dumping them on anybody would start a war.

by jardinier

I will agree strongly with you Mike that the Industrial Relations so-called "Reforms" are possibly the nastiest legislation that Howard has introduced during his entire term as PM, and definitely the most important issue in Australia at this time.

However this Muslim thing is not going to go away, and hopefully the more we discuss it the better judgements will be made in how to deal with it.

by neil higgins

Here in the UK we are half way through season two of Battlestar Galactica,and last week,my stupid cousin (who's already seen the lot),"accidently" told me the ending of the season finale.I could not get him to shut up,as he's here in the UK for a few weeks on holiday.Now that is what I call treason!!
As for terrorists,if one dies,two more will spring up out of the woodwork.

by mjwx

Coincidentally NGIS Australia are looking for a new pre-sales engineer :) .

by rob mekel

in favor of death penalty. The right thing to do is lock him up forever.
[i] That is; if found guilty, but can't imagen that being not the case. [/i]

Rob

by Member 25348569

If you ever seriously upset Mexico and Mexicans, they have so many potential terrorists within your borders that you would be toast. I fear that you will have to offer Texas [b]without[/b] George W.

Seriously, though, I fully agree with you and the stance I have been taking in other discussions is that you (and we!) have to be conspicuously better than the opposition - whatever it costs.

by absolutely

neilb: "Seriously, though, I fully agree with you and the stance I have been taking in other discussions is that you (and we!) have to be conspicuously better than the opposition - whatever it costs."

Better in what way? Besides being right, of course.

by Member 25348569

That was one issue that I tried to address - unsuccesfully, I think - in other posts. How we define "better" is measured against Western moral codes so the comparisons are subjective and rarely absolute but I think we can satisfactorily define "better" in this case in not executing people.

It's a start, at least.

by jardinier

Of course I am in the wrong company here, but if you can step outside your personal non-beliefs and look at the matter pragmatically, it should be quite possible to convert the guy to Christianity.

The two religions have a common heritate reaching back to Abraham, and the main theological difference that I can see is that, as stated in the Koran, Muhammud did not believe that Jesus Christ the Messiah, as God, would have subjected himself to crucifixion.

Check the easy search Koran website:

http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran

And THEN, allow him to make VOLUNTARY statements denouncing the terrorist extremists especially, but also the violence towards infidels in general.

(Well they don't call me Julian "Goebbels" Hancock for nothing !) ]:)

by john.a.wills

Isn't it a disgrace that French Christians live their lives so unChristianly that the Muslim immigrants haven't mostly become Christians anyway? I say this because Mussawi/Moussaoui is French, but the same goes for Britain and other Christian countries with much Muslim immigration.

by mjwx

First things first, don?t compare France to the UK/Australia. We are nothing alike. You would be lynched had you blurted out such blasphemy in London.

People exerting religious freedom away from orthodoxy is not anything to be ashamed from. If anything this is the kind of behaviour we want the Muslim immigrants to emulate. To care less about the church and just get on with their lives.

Christian countries, whatever happened to not being judged by colour, sex and creed which is supposed to be a mainstay of modern western civilization? Ask any Aussie on the street and they will tell you this is not a Christian country, only polly?s and Churchie?s will tell you otherwise. I find that the surrender of one freedom is too much tyranny to bear.

But I guess freedom of religion is another essential freedom the yanks are prepared to give up for a little temporary security.

by jardinier

It's a disgrace that so many atheists are bigots, and overly defensive of their viewpoint which makes me wonder just how comfortable they are in their non-belief.

[b]bigot:[/b] A person who is intolerant of any ideas other than his own, esp. on religion, politics and race. [Collins Dictionary]

Since you have quite unnecessarily introduced your "belief" to the discussion, I will point out that I take it as obvious that Muslims (moderate or extremist) would find atheism more offensive than Christianity.

So that, in the scenario I have presented for the purpose of propaganda, as a Christian, his ideas might carry some weight, but as an atheist he would merely reaffirm in the minds of Muslims that Western society is decadent.

by absolutely

My next question, then, is whom did you mean by "we"?

I haven't seen your name in many of the discussions in which I've edified the less rational & less self-interested members of society over the past few weeks, so your explanation of what you've been saying recently didn't make any sense to me.

by Member 25348569

The Western countries who are judging the Islamic states by our standards, pronouncing them guilty and punishing them.

by absolutely

Although I consider religion a sick joke on the minds of all affected by these various afflictions, "just in case" there is a harem awaiting all martyrs, I say keep Z. Moussaoui alive, don't martyr him, and don't award him a team of virgins in the afterlife, just a long, boring sit in the klink in this life.

by mjwx

But this guy is just the lowest rung of the rotten ladder. You need a leader, but the unfortunate reality is that the US will never capture one dead or alive.

There was a joke amongst the Vietnamese, they didn?t need spy's they could hear you easily enough. I understand it lost a lot in the translation but my point is that it's far to easy for one man to hide from a large military machine.

So about Zac, he's not my prisoner so he's not my responsibility but because he's just a foot soldier his life or death will mean little in the long run.

by absolutely

I have no interest in what anything "would merely reaffirm in the minds of Muslims". Where I live, I have the right to worship, or not, according to my beliefs, not yours. I have the right to treat your religion, and everybody else's, as a farce if I want. Whether Muslim, Jew, Satanist, or Christian, anybody who imposes on my 1st Amendment right to believe in reality and not in myth will receive a crash course in my 2nd Amendment rights.

http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?news_iv_ctrl=-1&page=NewsArticle&id=11361

by john.a.wills

Conversion to rationality isn't the same as conversion to atheism. And conversion to atheism might mean conversion to Communism as much as to Objectivism (and there are at least two sects of Objectivism, come to think of it). My point was that Christians are taught in primary school that if they live according to Xn theory others will be attracted to Christianity without overt preaching. But Christians do not live according to Xn theory, which for current purposes is much the same across all sects. It is a disgrace to Christians that they are not living by their theory. Is living by any of the multitudinous atheist theories supposed to attract non-atheists?

by absolutely

john.a.wills: "Is living by any of the multitudinous atheist theories supposed to attract non-atheists?"

Atheism is a by-product of my core belief: realism. Other atheists may speak for themselves, but I know of no way of attracting the self-crippled minds of religionists. Those that wish to subscribe to a make-believe perspective have destroyed their ability to recognize or to benefit from realism, and I have no interest in finding a way to "attract" or even to communicate with them.

by john.a.wills

do you think it a disgrace that the world is not yet a motley group of atheists? To whom is it a disgrace?

by oneamazingwriter

to have known athiests who simply didn't believe that God exists, but in other areas were very mature human beings who allowed respect for those who believed differently. (Since I do believe that God exists I don't put His existence in the past tense.)
People are people is all I have come up with so far. Live and let live works really well for me. I'm going to form my own opinion about every person I encounter because I am human. Bigotry has come at me so often that I look to myself to see where my own deficiencies lie. ICK! I have them! But as a believer I can pray to change and grin each time I see any improvement. I'd make a lousy athiest. Worshipping my own ego would bore me to death!

by absolutely

oneamazingwriter: "I'd make a lousy athiest. Worshipping my own ego would bore me to death!"

I bet you can sell snake oil to a cobra. I however, am smarter than [b]any[/b] snake!

by oneamazingwriter

Any human is smarter than a snake, Absolutely. But a Native human learns from all of life. Snake bites can build up anti-bodies and cause a human to be able to deal with them without fear. It's known as transmutation...but it's a spiritual concept that a closed mind would not allow room for.
And if a cobra has dry skin and wants to buy some snake oil, who am I to deny it? LOL

by oneamazingwriter

live long even if he is only given a life sentence unless he's kept in solitary confinement. Whether he dies or not he'll be considered a hero for those who believe as he believes, but he's small change in the overall picture and he will be quickly forgotten other than by his family.

I don't go along with the death penalty, for I don't see how killing someone does anyone any good.

edited twice..the first time to correct what I thought was an error and the second time to remove the correction! Oops!

by absolutely

I also don't support irrevocable actions (such as death) based on anything less than absolute certainty, which is as fictitious as the Easter Bunny [b]except when "defendants" admit their guilt, as Z.M. did[/b]. Based on the premise that people do not falsely claim guilt, I support executing [b]admitted[/b] murderers, but not convicted ones who maintain a claim of innocence. I also consider myself an opponent of the death penalty itself, in general, but that isn't exactly the question I posed.

I won't argue about the moral right to kill Moussaoui, as I believe admitting to a conspiracy to murder me is sufficient grounds for execution. You can agree or disagree about killing in self-defense, but my mind is made and the topic of this discussion is: I think in this case an even harsher punishment exists. Who agrees? Why? Who disagrees? Why?

This is why I believe life in prison is a better punishment for Zacarias Moussaoui than death:
He and those who believe as he does expect to enjoy eternal bliss [b]if they die as martyrs[/b]. We the People, via the courts, can rob him of a martyr's death, possibly dissuading a few would-be martyrs, whilst simultaneously demonstrating to the intelligent people of the world, many of whom we hope will help us find the crack-pot martyrs in their midst, that we are above killing, except as a last resort and in true self-defense. Someone who is apprehended and goes peacefully through the court system according to its rules does not pose an "immediate & unavoidable danger", thus does not qualify to be justly killed with legal amnesty for self-defense, according to common law & precedent. Although the same legal tradition has allowed execution, there have been local disagreements about the justice of execution.

It so happens that the Koran says something similar about killing in self-defense. Not that the Koran is any part of my standard, but in this case the coincidence is convenient, and probably strategically important to the long-term conduct of the war on terror.

If we do not demonstrate, at every step, that life is our primary value, we will tend increasingly toward an unarguable theological debate about when it is acceptable to kill. This nation of mostly Chritians cannot decide amongst ourselves, thus it is ludicrous to expect to be able to precisely and effectively convery "our beliefs" on such a subtle point. The premise that all life is sacred, and its logical consequence that [b]the[/b] condition for the use of force is self-defense is simple, easily understandable, and nearly universally accepted by intelligent people, when we are calm enough to think at all.

Therefore, [b]the[/b] intelligent thing to do in war is to take prisoners whenever possible, and to kill none of those prisoners, ever, nor deny any Geneva Convention protections to any combatants of any war, regardless of their nation, or claimed allegiance to a non-government agency. If we don't play by what we call "The Rules", it is unlikely that any of our claims will be taken seriously, and quibbling over the fact that terrorists have not signed the Geneva Convention is disingenuous.

It is implicit in all acts of violence, whether between or among individuals, nations, or any other collectives, that there is an aggressor, whose aggression is immoral by definition, and a wronged party, for whom self-defense, [b]but nothing more[/b], is a right. It helps to understand principles. Somebody, please, explain this principle to everybody in the White House.

Edit: I put the word "defendant" in quotes above because Moussaoui's performance in court cannot accurately be called a "defense" according to the premises and traditions of the modern justice system. His goal is obviously not to contest his guilt, nor to preserve his life, thus he is not using the court system to [b]defend[/b] the one thing that is every person's most valuable possession: life.

by oneamazingwriter

the answer I gave, Absolutely. I outgrew answering demands a long time ago. Requests are fine with me, though. My respect for life includes my own, and my respect for intelligence includes my own. "So What?" isn't a phrase that allows for that respect.

by absolutely

Response to experience as you described it is called "learning", not "transmutation", and is an intellectual process, not the realm of your "spiritual" delusions.

by absolutely

the answer you gave. If you wish, substitution of the phrase "Therefore, what?" denotes [b]precisely[/b] the same question, and may also connote the respect for which you wish. Your wishes, however, are not my commands.

I myself made no demands, and if you are such an "amazingwriter" you know what the symbol "?" denotes: inquiry, not demand. You're free to refuse to answer me, but if you do answer me, you are constrained to abide by the rules of TechRepublic regarding "off-topic" posts. If the staff of TechRepublic will not remove such posts, and my experience is that they usually do not remove anything but the worst profanity, then I will clarify for the record how your answers are unresponsive to the question as asked. I am as free to do so as you are to either to answer my questions, or to withhold your responses. Being addressed with phrases that [b]imply[/b] personal respect beyond your rights to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, are not among your rights. As I did not threaten your life or right to do with your life as you wish, your complaint is entirely invalid. Deal with it. [b]That[/b] was a demand, and one that the law makes of you, not me. If you don't like it, write to your representatives, or better yet, move to Iran or China, where you can learn what it is really like to be required to speak according to somebody else's wish for "respect".

by oneamazingwriter

at TR that said you had to like any answer that I give to any subject we all discuss. I simply liked my answer. Liking is a matter of taste, Absolutely. You and I have different tastes. That's OK with me. If people always agreed there would be little conversation in life. :)

by absolutely

I never implied that there is "anything at TR that said you [b]had[/b] to like any answer that I give to any subject we all discuss."

I only pointed out that you hadn't addressed [b]the[/b] topic of this thread and invited you to do so. For the record, you [b]were & are[/b] off-topic: the subject is Zacarias Moussaoui's sentence, not your views on the death penalty or Z.M.'s importance in "in the overall picture," whatever you consider that to mean.

oneamazingwanker: "Liking is a matter of taste, Absolutely. You and I have different tastes. That's OK with me. If people always agreed there would be little conversation in life."

You're drifting further off-topic. Bad 'netiquette, troll.

by absolutely

I don't support irrevocable actions (such as death) based on anything less than absolute certainty, which is as fictitious as the Easter Bunny except when "defendants" admit their guilt, as Z.M. did. Based on the premise that people do not falsely claim guilt, I support executing admitted murderers, but not convicted ones who maintain a claim of innocence. Some of those people are found later to have been convicted incorrectly, and some of those people are executed first. If you don't support abolishing the death penalty because of that, I consider you a murderer.

I won't argue about the moral right to kill Moussaoui, as I believe admitting to a conspiracy to murder me is sufficient grounds for execution. You can agree or disagree about killing in self-defense, but my mind is made and the topic of this discussion is: I think in this case an even harsher punishment exists. Who agrees? Why? Who disagrees? Why?

This is why I believe life in prison is a better punishment for Zacarias Moussaoui than death:
He and those who believe as he does expect to enjoy eternal bliss if they die as martyrs. We the People, via the courts, can rob him of a martyr's death, possibly dissuading a few would-be martyrs, whilst simultaneously demonstrating to the intelligent people of the world, many of whom we hope will help us find the crack-pot martyrs in their midst, that we are above killing, except as a last resort and in true self-defense. Someone who is apprehended and goes peacefully through the court system according to its rules, as Moussaoi did, does not pose an "immediate & unavoidable danger", thus does not qualify to be justly killed with legal amnesty for self-defense, according to common law & precedent. Although the same legal tradition has allowed execution, there have been local disagreements about the justice of execution.

It so happens that the Koran says something similar about killing in self-defense. Not that the Koran is any part of my standard, but in this case the coincidence is convenient, and probably strategically important to the long-term conduct of the war on terror.

If we do not demonstrate, at every step, that life is our primary value, we will tend increasingly toward an unarguable, theologically tangled debate about when it is acceptable to kill. This nation of mostly Chritians cannot decide amongst ourselves, thus it is ludicrous to expect to be able to precisely and effectively convery "our beliefs" on such a subtle point. The premise that all life is sacred, and its logical consequence that the condition for the use of force is self-defense is simple, easily understandable, and nearly universally accepted by intelligent people, when we are calm enough to think at all.

Therefore, [b]the[/b] intelligent way to conduct war is to take prisoners whenever possible, and to kill none of those prisoners while they remain captive, ever, nor deny any Geneva Convention protections to any combatants of any war, regardless of their nation, or claimed allegiance to a non-government agency. If we don't play by what we call "The Rules", it is unlikely that any of our claims will be taken seriously, and quibbling over the fact that terrorists have not signed the Geneva Convention is disingenuous.

It is implicit in all acts of violence, whether between or among individuals, nations, or any other collectives, that there is an aggressor, whose aggression is immoral by definition, and a wronged party, for whom self-defense, but nothing more, is a right. It helps to understand principles. Somebody, please, explain this principle to everybody in the White House.

Edit: I put the word "defendant" in quotes above because Moussaoui's performance in court cannot accurately be called a "defense" according to the premises and traditions of the modern justice system. His goal is obviously not to contest his guilt, nor to preserve his life, thus he is not using the court system to defend the one thing that is every person's most valuable possession: life. His conduct is only comprehensible to me as an attempt to die as a martyr, which is much more dangerous than a live, well-treated prisoner.

by absolutely

john.a.wills: "then why...do you think it a disgrace that the world is not yet a motley group of atheists?"

In the spirit of public service, and motivated by self-interest in an [b]honest[/b] dialogue, I won't answer any more of your questions until you identify the false premise implicit in the above question, and disavow it.

by oneamazingwriter

in joining TR was to learn more of the language, so I looked up wanker, since it wasn't in my vocabulary. While I was at it I looked up troll to make certain your inference was clear. I came here to learn, and I am learning. I don't drift, Absolutely. I make decisions and pursue avenues. I was very aware that this part of the thread was off topic. If that's bad 'netiquette, I offer my apologies to those who stayed on topic, and I acknowledge that you see me as a detestable woman.
I still like my response to the original question and am greatly enjoying my other experiences here at TR.

edited for typo(s)

by absolutely

And I don't see you "as a detestable woman" or anything else. I am skeptical that you are a woman at all, to be accurate, and the only purpose of the substitution for "writer" in your silly nickname is to tell you that whatever you think of yourself as a writer, I'm not impressed.

by rob mekel

so what's absolute about your nickname Absolutely?
Your: wrong being, bad taste, calling names, ... :0 ;)

Did see some nice post of you as well, what happend?

Rob

by absolutely

"Did see some nice post of you as well, what happend?"

I think I had a flu. I've recovered, thank you.

This discussion is closed to new replies.