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    • #3148670

      What else could you expect

      by old guy ·

      In reply to Love all humans, was it?

      from them? Hopefully this will be a catalast to bring the majority of the Muslim people to their senses and destroy the radicals who are causing all the problems!

      • #3148660

        Unfortunately, it happened four years ago

        by neilb@uk ·

        In reply to What else could you expect

        and the governments of both our countries want to buy oil from and sell arms to the Saudis…

        • #3148649

          Oh. I didn’t look at the date.

          by old guy ·

          In reply to Unfortunately, it happened four years ago

          Well, since it was that long ago then I don’t guess anyting good will come of it. That makes it even more abysmal!

          Sometimes I do think the whole world is worthless but then I know it’s not because of the people in the world. I know there are a lot of people who are trying to live right but as you pointed out the governments are really screwy.

        • #3148559

          Besides,

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Unfortunately, it happened four years ago

          who really cares if the women are treated like dogs? Oh wait. I forgot, I treat my dog better than that.

          I think we see who the real dogs are. May they die in a stampede of pigs and be sent to whatever version of hell they believe in. X-(

          Why are not more womens rights groups in the USA/Canada standing up in outrage of the muslim world? Because politics is more important to them.

        • #3148555

          Recently in Ontario

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to Besides,

          There was a committee in Ontario looking at implementing a form of Sharia aribtration in Ontario. It would only be for family court type of matters – divorce, child custody etc. There already was such a thing for Jewish people, and there was some pressure for something similar for Muslims.

          A number of women’s groups and even moderate muslim groups opposed this, and were successful at persauding the government to not implement the recommendation to have sharia aribtration. What happened instead was a lawa was passed that eliminated the right to religious arbitration for everyone, including the Jews who already had this right.

          Not every muslim thinks of women this way, and its wrong to generalize like that.

          James

        • #3148539

          To generalize

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Recently in Ontario

          I did not generalize, and had specifically said so in a different post. The last post was aimed directly and SPECIFIC people, so again, no generalization.

          But, the muslims that do NOT think that way about women don’t seem to be going out of their way to do anything about it.

          If you allow a crime to be committed, how much are you responsible for the continued crimes?

          And no, your religious beliefs do not trump the laws of the land you have chosen to live in, and “you” know that coming into that country.

          We had a case in Florida where a woman was trying to claim religous persicution because you HAVE to have your picture on your drivers liscense. She claimed this was a violation of her religous beliefs. I say, don’t become involved in it if it violates your beliefs. If you want to drive, here are the rules. You don’t like the rules, go to some other country that has rules you like. Of course the FACT that in her home land she wouldn’t be ALLOWED to drive under ANY situation is completely besides the point, huh?

          Some people just make me sick.

          Muslims having arranged marriages to 12 year old girls is also quite a reason to have disgust for them. If you do that in North America, you are labeled at the pervert you are and sent to jail.

          I just read a way they are catching pedaphiles is by keeping track of who goes to thailand. It really is a sick world, and amazes me that all these countries that are so much older than the US and Canada are still the most uncivlized.

        • #3148523

          Not restricted to Muslims

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to To generalize

          We had a similar example just today in Toronto. A coalition of Jewish religious groups representing Reform (liberal), Conservative and Orthodox had planned a Holocaust memorial event in a city park. A choir, made up of teenage jewish kids, was invited to participate. A group of Orthodox Jewish rabbis argued that the choir should not participate because according to them, their religious belief is that the singing of women should not be heard by men. So the coalition withdrew its support because they supported the choir. Another example of a minority perspective (within the jewish faith) dictating to the majority. But in this case the majority did something about it.

          I would also suggest there are some so-called Christian groups in North America who promote bigamy and have had marriages of 13 and 14 year old girls/women. Despite our moral outrage they still exist.

          Don’t get smug over Thailand – the sex trade there would not be so strong if it wasn’t for the North American and European customers coming in. Canada passed a law that they could and would prosecute anyone from Canada who visited there on a sex tour.

          James

        • #3148500

          Did not intend it as “smug”

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Not restricted to Muslims

          They condone and allow the sex trade and SHOULD be looked down upon for it.

          My point was that we are looking at steming the flow from civilized nations as a method of identifying and taking care of this known problem with people that live here. These people as well are to be looked down upon and dealt with accordingly. To have a country prosecute you for something you do in another country is pretty revolutionairy and is a first step in resolving this major issue. Of course we won’t hear our politicians ever say anything, nor will the grand UN about Thailand actually doing something about it. Sad.

          I believe JCK said there are some states in the south that do allow underage marriages if the parent signes off on it, but I am not formiliar with them myself. Not generally accepted.

          Yes, generalizations are a bad thing, but so is looking the other way while others in your “group” run wild.

        • #3148507

          Child Marriages

          by stargazerr ·

          In reply to To generalize

          were very prevalent in India too, 50 years ago.

          There still exist some very small pockets of population that practice child marriages. These are the illiterate people who have no regard for laws and consider traditions like child marriages and Sati (burning the wife alive at the pyre when the husband dies) above petty laws.

        • #3150286

          When talking about civilized nations

          by mjwx ·

          In reply to To generalize

          Age is irrelivent. It is a nations ability to change and respond to change which makes the most difference in how civilized a nation is.

        • #3150202

          Age is always relivent

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to When talking about civilized nations

          when it comes to state sanctioned child molestation.

          You CAN judge a society by the way they treat their children.

          A savage nation will say anything goes.

          Muslim states are savage nations.

          The people are intentionally kept uneducated and stupid, because it makes controlling the mindless masses easier.

    • #3148654

      Wrong emoicon, completely wrong

      by jdclyde ·

      In reply to Love all humans, was it?

      X-( is the only thing fitting of the scum of the earth that caused the girls to be killed in the fire.

      I was disgusted when it happened, and am equally disgusted years later reading about it again.

      It is people like this that are directly responsible for the intense HATE that many feel towards Muslims. When the masses don’t stand up and publicly execute any scum that would do this, they are just as much a part of the problem and get painted with the same brush stroke.

      I am trying to remember who it was that posted last summer about the increases in rape cases in Europe, with the majority of the new cases being commited by muslim men on women not wearing the “proper” clothing, and so were “asking for it”.

      It does get hard sometimes for me to remember that this isn’t all muslims, but I do step back and remind myself that this is a glamorized/notorized section, not the whole.

      I wish it were possible to make the punishment fit the crime.

      Although, I HAVE sometimes wished I could follow the traditional Islamic method of dealing with an adulterous wife….. :0

    • #3148653

      SG – look at the dateline. This is old news.

      by sleepin’dawg ·

      In reply to Love all humans, was it?

      Thisis over four years old and guess what??? Nothing has changed and nothing will change until civilized nations stop dealing with these people and make them realize that we are in the 21st century, not the 7th of that idiot Mohammed.

      [b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

      • #3148619

        Dawg, you’re in big trouble now

        by m_a_r_k ·

        In reply to SG – look at the dateline. This is old news.

        You called Muhammed an idiot. I’m sure that’s a “crime” that carries the death sentence. At the very least it will cause massive rioting, looting and chants of “Death to America” among the Middle East’s 500,000 million unemployed Muslims.

      • #3148598

        Yeah Dawg

        by stargazerr ·

        In reply to SG – look at the dateline. This is old news.

        I missed the date. My hometown has a separate Muslim community that we avoid going to, if possible. I never knew how they lived untill I actually had to go there one day.

        I had a muslim colluegue. Well dressed and educated. He had borrowed my book … and wasnt returning it … so i decided to go to his house and get it .. His house was deep in the muslim territory of my town .. so i asked my dad to come along.

        He met us at the road corner and took us to his house which was padlocked from outside ..

        I just assumed he lives alone.He unlocked it and we went and sat down in his office. After 5 minutes of chatting he asked me if i want to meet his wife .. I was kinda surprised but said yeah sure ..

        He led me (alone .. dad stayed at the office since he didnt invite him) across the house .. which was very dark (I tripped twice) to a room at the very end … which was lighted. His wife was there and his 2 toddler daughters (asleep)

        I went in and sat down and started chatting to her … he left us .. After about 10 minutes another girl in ragged looking clothes showed up … I wasnt sure how to greet her since i wasnt sure if she is a daughter of the house or a maid. She came and sat down next to me and i started talking to her too. In the next 15 minutes 10-11 more girls showed up. All between 15 and 20 years of age.

        Talking to them i realised that they have only studied till 10th (O levels) and have no ambition to study anymore … they just wanted to get married

        Only one girl was interested in studying more. That girl was wearing glasses similar to those of one of the actresses in a very popular bollywood movie. I started teasing her …

        Turns out .. she had never heard of the movie … in fact they didnt have TV in the house or a radio or stereo of some sort.

        I asked her how was Eid (since it had just been). I found out that all they saw was a bit of fireworks through the window. They werent allowed out …

        Meanwhile .. my dad was chatting to my friend … and was asked if he wants tea. my family doesnt drink tea so he declined. My friend started sulking and apparently thought we thought of him as beneath us or something.

        So when he asked for sweets dad said yes. His wife came with the dish of sweets but didnt come in the room .. she kept trying to get her husband’s attention till he got up and took the plate from her ..

        Same was happening with me …

        The girls told me that they had been waiting for days for me to come ..

        They talked like they had known me for years ..

        I guess i was their only contact outside that house.

        When i went back to the office .. my friend said he will drop us to the car … we came out … he padlocked the door again with 15 women inside

        • #3148576

          And the big question about you

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Yeah Dawg

          is this “person” STILL someone you consider a [b]friend[/b]? I really hope you say “no”.

        • #3148572

          No jd

          by stargazerr ·

          In reply to And the big question about you

          After what happened, I realised he was never my friend.

          Now I just like to think of him as an aquaintance.

        • #3148565

          I do NOT envy you

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to No jd

          having to live so close to that situation, knowing full well how ugly it could turn on YOU, being an unworth female that has forgotten her place.

          Stay safe, and always be aware of your surroundings. You are living in a battle zone.

          Yes, people like that take all the fun out of telling ex-wife jokes, because it really is a way of life for scum like that. cockroaches, that need to be exterminated.

        • #3148542

          Was

          by stargazerr ·

          In reply to I do NOT envy you

          I am in the UK now, remember? :p

          I have a few muslim friends who come from decent families. People who are normal in every which way. Except of course, that they have at least 5 or six kids, each. :0

          ]:)

        • #3150268

          It did turn ugly,

          by mjwx ·

          In reply to I do NOT envy you

          Well in Sydney at least, Racial tensions reached boiling point earlier this year between bogans (lower class white aussies) and Lebanese (Muslims). Riots for a number of days but it did calm down pretty quickly (compared to France). I’m sure Jules knows more than me it’s around his neck of the woods.

          I think it was only racial not religious. But racism is still ugly.

        • #3150193

          I thought there was a religious aspect

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to It did turn ugly,

          To it, from the interviews I heard.

          Some Muslims were offended by the women on the beach dressing immodestly. So don’t go fown to the beach.

          James

        • #3150062

          James

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to It did turn ugly,

          your going to classify that as a religious dispute?

          So the Muslims that are behind the greatly increased rate of rapes on women that are “asking for it” based on their dress, have a religious standing for their actions?

        • #3150053

          JD, Talk about a logical leap

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to It did turn ugly,

          You must be a kangaroo today.

          The interviews I heard from australians who were there, stated that the reasons the muslims were rioting were because they thought the (non muslim) women were dressed too immodestly, based on their religious principles.

          I don’t agree that they have any right to dictate to anyone what the dress code should be. And its a pretty fair leap to say that this principle justifies rape in their religion.

          Those acceused of the violence and rapes were in lebanese gangs, thugs, who happened to be of the muslim faith. They will use whatever they can in court.

          Don’t tell me you have never heard of American thugs claiming she asked for it by the way she was dressed. I am sure you didn’t buy it then, and you shouldnt buy it now.

          By reading wikipedia, I see there was potentially a lot more to the issue than what I heard on the radio. Some lifeguards kicked some muslims off the beach for playing soccer, but were kinda racist about it, this sparked a later attack by muslims on lifeguards and it all escalated.

          So I stand by the fact there was a religious element to it. But not all the people demonstrating on either side were the thugs. Are you telling me that because skin heads were protesting on the “white” side that all the white protestors were skin heads?

          James

        • #3149908

          Racially motivated to begin with

          by mjwx ·

          In reply to It did turn ugly,

          Then religion was used as an excuse after the fact if I remember correctly. The media loves stuff like that, I find it’s a good idea to put the BS goggles on before reading the paper in this day and age.

        • #3148535

          Old City…

          by onbliss ·

          In reply to Yeah Dawg

          ..I can imagine your reservations in trekking to some parts of the city. I had similar feelings when I had to go through some parts of the Old City in Hyderabad. Felt like it was “another” country.

        • #3148510

          Yes, Hyderabad

          by stargazerr ·

          In reply to Old City…

          is the same. I have lived in Muzaffarnagar (my hometown) most of my life but entering the muslim area is like I have just stepped into a new world.

          They have Pakistan flags up. They scream and shout for joy when pakistan wins the cricket match. I know it is a free country .. but this is a bit over the limit.

          ]:)

      • #3148924

        Idiot ???

        by rob mekel ·

        In reply to SG – look at the dateline. This is old news.

        Why on earth would you call Mohammed an idiot, because of what Imams make of today’s Islamic rules or what else? It is the same as calling Jesus an idiot because the Pope isn’t condemning the use of condoms to prevent STD’s. (altho he is changing his mind as he is endorsing the use of condoms to prevent AIDS.)

        So maybe there is hope for us all as it took the RC-church more than 2000 year to change .

        Rob

    • #3148621

      Muslims are hypocrites

      by m_a_r_k ·

      In reply to Love all humans, was it?

      They constantly accuse the West of wanting to wipe out Muslims. They are hypocrites. This story about the schoolgirls is a case in point. Another occurred recently in Afghanistan when a man was sentenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity. Imagine the riots that would occur all over if the Middle East if a western country let a Muslim school burn down. Or if we sentenced someone to death for converting to Islam.

      • #3148600

        Didn’t they let him go?

        by jdclyde ·

        In reply to Muslims are hypocrites

        While he would be a marked man for the psychos following that “religion”, I thought they did cave into presure from all of the CIVILIZED nations?

        • #3148533

          It was in news…

          by onbliss ·

          In reply to Didn’t they let him go?

          ..partly because he had converted to Christianity. It is doubtful if there would have been so much attention, if say, he had converted to any other religion.

        • #3148522

          How did it end?

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to It was in news…

          or has it?

          I thought I had heard they were going to let him go?

          Too many allies that will be pissed off if someone gets persicuted for the crime of being Catholic. Not even the Cahtolic haters out there would stand for that.

        • #3148517

          Itlay

          by onbliss ·

          In reply to How did it end?

          I read something about him flying to Italy. Can’t say for sure if that is what transpired.

        • #3148521

          Maybe, onbliss

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to It was in news…

          But don’t the Muslims in India hate the Hindis in India? What if a Muslim in India tried to convert to Hinduism?

        • #3148516

          Trust and mistrust

          by onbliss ·

          In reply to Maybe, onbliss

          …both exists in the communities. If a Muslim tried to convert to Hinduism, the issue would be in news mostly locally within the community and maybe regionally. In the modern days, when the media is craving for news, maybe it would have caught the national attention.

          But I doubt if it would have caught the World-wide attention.

          I would not go far as saying that the “common” man would hate any body because of the religion, as long as nobody interfers in their practices and way of life.

          ps: By the way the religion is Hindu. Hindi is a language.

        • #3148515

          Depends on what community he is from

          by stargazerr ·

          In reply to Maybe, onbliss

          The muslims would be outraged, of course. But then, not all muslims in India think that they should be living in pakistan. Many of them think of themselves as Indians and would not be as opposed to it as the ones who think of themselves as pakistanis.

          ]:)

        • #3148498

          Mark a history lesson

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Maybe, onbliss

          When the British Empire Ruled India it actually covered both what is now currently known as India & Pakistan. When they where forced to withdraw they drew a line on the Map with one side being called Pakistan for the Muslims and the other side being called India for the predominately Hindu population.

          The date was set and people of the wrong faith tried desperately to get to the right side of the line but many failed and once the Date for Liberation came most of those on the wrong side of the line where killed because they where the wrong religion and this happened on both sides so it wasn’t just the Muslim’s responsible for a massive number of deaths.

          That country has never recovered from the forced separation along Religious Lines and now they both have Fission Weapons Scary Thought Hey?

          Col

        • #3149186

          Reading

          by stargazerr ·

          In reply to Mark a history lesson

          the word [b]They[/b] seems wierd to me since I am an Indian 😀

          Yes, people were killed from both sides while they were moving to the “right” country.

          We have been on tenterhooks ever since. Specially over Kashmir. During the partition of India and Pakistan and the 1971 war, pakistan occupied a portion of kashmir they now call Azad(Free) kashmir and we call POK (Pakistan Occupied Kashmir).

          There are small shakeups in kashmir all the time and terrorist infiltration is an everyday issue. Terrorists attacked our parliament 2 years ago. Car Bomb. They blast a bomb in one of the popular Malls in Delhi. There was a huge shootout between police and terrorists in one of the biggest temples (Akshardham).

          Sometimes I wonder, if we (India) are a bit too soft and shouldnt really take all this standing down. Maybe do a George Bush ?? :p

        • #3149166

          Which is better

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Reading

          Defend yourself and remove a known threat, or sit around like sheep waiting to see who the next one of your friends/family will be taken away in a meat wagon?

          In whitebread middle america, it really is hard to even imagine what this is like, having never had to face it myself.

          But then, I am still amazed in the racism from both blacks and whites in the US today.

          I was TRULY shocked when Neil clued us in on the way the French were treating the “Third generation imigratants”. Here in America, if you are born here, you are not considered an imigrant and your children definately are not. To see that the cultured French are more racist than most of what is currently going on in the US really was an eye opener for me.

          They don’t teach you that in US schools. Not politically correct, dont you know?

        • #3149160

          jdclyde: Pre-emptive can be righteous

          by onbliss ·

          In reply to Reading

          But when both sides start taking pre-emptive actions, then it just becomes messier.

        • #3150265

          I think a GWB is a little extreme

          by mjwx ·

          In reply to Reading

          but if this was my home I’d understand why they were calling for blood. India and Pakistan have already been to war and blood is not an unlimited resource. I think the Indian and Pakistani governments understand this to a degree. And then there is the issue of MAD (Mutual Assured Destruction) the are both nuclear armed countries.

          In a situation where the civilian population is both the threat and the target to defend it’s hard to tell when a good defence turns into a bad offence.

        • #3148520

          They DID let him go

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to Didn’t they let him go?

          But just the idea that the entire religion first deemed it a death sentence says something about their hypocritical prejudice.

        • #3148514

          Entire Religion?

          by onbliss ·

          In reply to They DID let him go

          It is questionable if it is the entire religion. The world has more than a billion muslims, I am sure there are lot of level-headed folks in that religion who do not support such intentions.

        • #3149152

          It’s in the Koran

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to Entire Religion?

          Or at least some interpret the Koran to say that all infidels (non-Muslims) should be eradicated and anyone who converts to another religion should be put to death. Since the Koran tells Muslims how to do everything from how to pick their nose to how to blow up a bulding, that’s why I said the entire religion. It’a amazing that Muslims, Christians and Jews all supposedly have the same God, yet Muslims don’t follow the Ten Commandments. I guess God didn’t exist until Muhammad flew to heaven on his horse.

        • #3149142

          That is one common accusation

          by onbliss ·

          In reply to It’s in the Koran

          …that Koran sanctions some of these killings and stupidities. I know some real stupid things have been said in other religious scriptures as well. By stupid, I mean by the standards of the 21st century.
          But, have’nt several millions weaned away from some of the distasteful passages in the scriptures?

          It is like, the Design document says one thing, but the software behaves differently 🙂 Do we judge the software based on the Design or based on the current behavior?

        • #3149072

          Their mistake is…

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to That is one common accusation

          that they take the Koran, a 1500-year old document literally and try to apply it to the 21st century. There are hundreds of things that can easily be taken out of context in the Bible, too, or any literary work that guides a religion or philosophy.

      • #3148502

        A different yardstick

        by onbliss ·

        In reply to Muslims are hypocrites

        Yes, there would have been quite a furore if it was caused by a Western nation or Israel. But cultures tend to apply a different yardstick. Many cultures in the world, would tolerate some suffering dished out from within, and react differently when alien (read different/outside) cultures interfer or influence.
        Hence, cultures do not see the destruction or changes from within, but are highly cognizant when the change is supported from the outside.

        I also believe if we, the World, support the moderates within the Muslim communities to be more forceful and reject the radicalism; it would be easier for us, again the World, to deal with menaces.

        When pushed to a corner, some people can accept and change, but there are some that will react violently. Do we want to push 1.2 billion people to the corner? There is good chance that there are some nut-cracks in that kind of population.

        • #3149149

          And on the other hand…

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to A different yardstick

          if the few nutcrack Muslims continue to push all non-Muslims into a corner, there is a good chance that the non-Muslims have a few nutcracks too. Muslims don’t hold a monopoly on wild-eyed violence and fighting against perceived injustice. If someone comes into my home and tries to take away my rights and tells me I have to grow a beard and wear funny clothes, I’m not going to give in lightly.

        • #3149140

          You have a point.

          by onbliss ·

          In reply to And on the other hand…

          …and you are right.

          ps: If I only had solution to all the problems of the world……………..(fill up the blanks) 🙂

        • #3149105

          Mark if you lived in AU

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to And on the other hand…

          That [i]someone comes into my home and tries to take away my rights and tells me I have to grow a beard and wear funny clothes, I’m not going to give in lightly.[/i] Would be your Doctor and he would be telling you to grow a beard and wear funny cloths to prevent or at the very least diminish Skin Cancers. :^0

          I’m supposing that the people who live in any Sun Drenched Area would do the same thing for the same reasons although their cloths might look different they would still do the same thing keep the sun away. :p

          Col ]:)

        • #3149086

          You have never been to Arizona

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Mark if you lived in AU

          People get up between 5 and 6 am, get all their running around done and are back under shelter by 10 am as it is just too hot.

          You do not see Americans in Arizona, Texas, New Mexico dress in funny clothing. We turn on the air conditioning and put on some sun screen! B-)

          doctor shmoctor! :p

        • #3149070

          Lack of Melanin?

          by onbliss ·

          In reply to You have never been to Arizona

          Read somewhere that cutaneous melanin can act as a natural sun screen. So maybe some don’t need the external lotions/creams.

        • #3149067

          Huh?

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to Lack of Melanin?

          [i]”Read somewhere that cutaneous melanin can act as a natural sun screen”[/i]

          What kind of cute watermelon prevents skin cancer? 😀

        • #3149066

          Sorry Mark, I did not get it.

          by onbliss ·

          In reply to Lack of Melanin?

          .

        • #3149058

          onbliss

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to Lack of Melanin?

          My sense of humor gets out of control some times. I was twisting the words “cutaneous melanin” into “cute watermelon”…. er..that’s the first thing that popped into my mind when I saw cutaneous melanin… never mind ;\

        • #3149074

          Actually, Hal

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to Mark if you lived in AU

          I do live in a sun-drenched area. I live in Texas. But nobody tells us what to wear or what to do. Can’t do that to a Texan. 😀

        • #3149060

          Yes, but

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Actually, Hal

          You have a complete Ozone Layer and the Aussies don’t.

          The Aussies have the highest rate of skin cancer in the world. This is because they’re a light-skinned population in a tropical latitude with a thin Ozone Layer and spend all of their time on the beach, playing sports or at the barbie.

        • #3149056

          The Aussies should move to Texas

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to Yes, but

          We’ll toughen up their lily white hide. I guess Texas, New Mexico and Arizona are so close to Mexico that some of the Mexicans’ darker skin pigment has gotten into our genes.

        • #3149044

          Talking about Sun screens

          by onbliss ·

          In reply to Yes, but

          On my recent trip to Cancun, Mexico. My wife and I werelittle careless about applying sun block cream. We ensured that our kids had tonnes of sun block.
          Imagine our surprise when, what appears to be two cases of sun burn, we saw our skin peeling off from the shoulders and arms 🙂 Never ocurred that it could happen to [b]even[/b] us.

        • #3149043

          How’d you get sunburned?

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to Yes, but

          You’re from India, right? So I’m gonna go out on a limb and assume you have dark skin. I didn’t know that dark skinned people get sunburned. Though, I suppose not getting burned is NOT the same as not getting skin cancer from the sun’s rays. You still should use sun screen.

        • #3149041

          Just an arrogant Indian

          by onbliss ·

          In reply to Yes, but

          Yes, I have a darker skin. And the temperatures were not even above 95F. In India, the temps used to go above 100F in the parts I have lived.
          I guess it was because, we were just in the beach and/or pool most of the time. The salinity and sun rays must have done something 🙂

          For the first few days, we could feel piercing pain, and just touching the shoulders seem to burn them. Then the skin just started peeling. I feel like a reptile now 🙂 Is this being sunburnt? I do not know.

        • #3149011

          Doesn’t have to be hot temperature

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to Yes, but

          You can get sunburned even on a cold day. I’ve gotten sunburned when snow skiing. The bright sunlight bouncing off the white snow, and being winter, my skin (face) wasn’t tan like it would be in summer, so I was more susceptible to getting burned. Maybe part of it was windburn because I sorta ski out of control, zipping down the slope at breakneck speed. LOL

          People also get sunburned on cloudy days. The UV rays plow right on through clouds and people don’t wear sun screen on cloudy days, making them more likely to get burned.

          And another thing, that damn sun burns bright down near the equator. An 85 deg day still has a hot sun and you probably get burned quicker there.

        • #3148975

          Yes Onbliss that is what is called SUN BURN

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Yes, but

          Although if you didn’t blister you didn’t get a bad case of it. I’ve seen sunburn occur in under 15 minutes on a cloudy day that was down right cold for this part of the world.

          When I was a kid my parents used to take us to the Beach for Holidays and back then it was considered as [b]Healthy[/b] to get sun burnt on the first day as you would stop the sun doing any more damage to your skin latter on. It’s all rubbish and after only 28 years I had my first Skin Cancer cut out.

          Back then what was considered as Sun Screens where useless as well, today they wouldn’t be approved as any form of Sun Screen maybe a moisturizer but nothing more. Coconut oil was all the rage back then and about the only thing that actually worked was the Zinc Cream that was applied to the nose to stop it burning back then it was just plain white now it comes in different colors but it was useless for anything else as you couldn’t cover your body in it as you stuck to everything and left stains on everything that you touched that proved very hard to remove.

          Back then we all wore piratically nothing at the beach as well so you tended to get Sun Burnt all over as the swim ware had no sun protection either.

          But it’s a great way to make a Quack sit up and take notice when I insisted that a mole be removed he only did it under sufferance and even as he was cutting it out he was insisting that it was unnecessary. Then he got the Pathology Results back and [b]Wet Himself[/b] as he realized that he didn’t cut anywhere near enough out. 😀

          I just laughed it off and asked a friend who is a surgeon what he thought about the results and I had an appointment with him 2 days latter where he did the job properly and then started looking all over my body to find more to cut out. 😉

          Then he started to [b]Blackmail[/b] me by after making the first cut he would then say something along the lines of [b]I’m terribly worried about the computer outside I hope my hand doesn’t slip and I cut off something that I wanted to leave there.[/b] It’s hard or actually impossible to say no when you are in that position. :_|

          Good thing that he’s a great friend otherwise I wouldn’t put up with that but with this guy I can’t help but laugh when he tries this on. Other times he rings me up at home and tells me that it’s time for another appointment for a checkup with a date & time. So I just ring the surgery and find out what has gone wrong with the computer and then arrange to fix it as required. :^0

          The down side is that all the staff there know me very well so I get special treatment and instead of having to wait months for an appointment for any of the Doctors working there I get in within days, because it’s a Specialist Clinic the doctors only visit there from 1 day per week to a couple of days per week and I get pushed in the next time that any of them are there, not something that I want but I have to live with it. ?:|

          The Surgeon in question insists that he has to keep me alive so he can ring me at unreasonable hours to get his computer fixed or ask questions on why something isn’t working properly but I can always get a good laugh out of him. 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3148974

          Mark just how many times have I told you

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Yes, but

          That I’ve been to Texas? It’s nothing more than a [b]HOLE[/b] that you avoid at every opportunity. :p

          But further north you can not get a barber to cut your hair above your collar they all refuse as that is one of the first places that the Skin Cancer hits and none of them want to run the risk of being sued. They will explain why they cut your hair they way that they do but you have absolutely no control over how long it’s cut as they have to cover the back of your neck and at the very least the top of your ears and forehead. Then they encourage you to grow a beard. 😉

          I carry a beard but only because I’m lazy and can’t be bothered shaving every day. I used to shave part of it off when I was going Motor Racing but I’ve worn a full beard since I could grow one and that has protected my face from the sun thankfully. 😀

          Now would you like me to explain again why I never go neat Texas again? B-)

          Col ]:)

        • #3148938

          Yeah OnBliss

          by stargazerr ·

          In reply to Yes, but

          I reckon, [b]that is[/b] called being sunburnt. I was asking one of my colleuegues for a description only yesterday 😀

          My home is in UP and the temperatures go up to 40 degree celsius sometimes (sorry, I am a farenheit illiterate) but I have never been sunburnt. Even though I used to play volleyball tournaments through July and August :p

          ]:)

        • #3150450

          They must not have been paying attention

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Yes, but

          when evolution was converting them from fish to monkeys to what passes for humans! :p 😀

          B-)

    • #3148496

      Okay just to avoid any ambiguity and hypocracy. Mohammed was……………

      by sleepin’dawg ·

      In reply to Love all humans, was it?

      a mamipulative degenerate SOB, tripping on halucinogenics, who in a moment of lucidity decided to establish his own religion. For what it is/was worth, the moron could neither read nor write and he was probably a tool of someone else who sought to bring order out of the conflicts of that time. The fact that the “religion”, which was a combination of Judaism and Old Testament Christianity, gained anykind of a foothold speaks much of the discord and conflicts that existed in the region in those times.

      I have nothing but digust for any institution that treats people with such contemptuous inequity and lack of tolerance. I have said it before and to insure nobody mistakes me I will say it again, “The only Muslim that can be trusted is a dead one.” I restate this so nobody can be in error of what my opinion is; these people are the scum of the earth and any more efforts of appeasement will only result in futher tragedies such as the WTC; and the London and the Madrid bombings. These people consider any signs of peace and appeasement signs of weakness and hold us in contempt for making them. My attitude is enough and it is time we retaliate with maximum prejudice in our efforts. These people need to be taught the penalties of being and acting as the uncivilized animals that they are.

      [b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

      • #3149180

        Okay…

        by onbliss ·

        In reply to Okay just to avoid any ambiguity and hypocracy. Mohammed was……………

        …I agree with your portrayal of Mohammed, based on what I have read. Centuries have passed since Mohammed lived and preached/killed/converted people in that region.
        Now the world has more than a billion Muslims. Even if one was to accept that some of the concepts in Islam are pretty old and need to be modernized, don’t you think out of the 1+ billion there are some good Muslims too?
        I have seen countless Muslims, who are just pretty much just like a normal human being. They just worry about their day-to-day problems, and engage in the rats’ race that most of us are equally involved.
        So do we just wipe out a billion plus people just like that?

        • #3149094

          I lived right in the midst of them for two years.

          by sleepin’dawg ·

          In reply to Okay…

          No, just those who insist upon being reactionary, fanatical, fundementalists. By all means preserve the peaceful forward looking ones, if you can find any. They immigrate to our nations and then moan, puke and cry about being discriminated against but they make no effort whatsoever to adapt to our ways; in fact they expect us to adapt to theirs. In my view if they persist we should return them to where they came from. They have no intention of ever adapting and blending in to our culture. Try moving to a Muslim nation and insist upon living and maintaining a Christian lifestyle and see how far you would get.

          Make no mistake about it; the Judeo-Christian culture of the western nations are under attack by fanatical, fundamentalist, Islam and if they can not convert us to their ideology, they intend our destruction. Pick up a copy of the Qu’ran and show me one instance where it calls for peaceful toleration and co-existence. BTW Judeo-Christian culture is not the only one being attacked; Islam is on the attack against every other religion.

          There may be 1+ billion of them and the majority seek the destruction of our way of life barring that they will settle for destroying us. In two years of living in Egypt, I learned the hard way you cannot turn your back on Muslims without running serious risks of injury. When I went there I had no preconceived notions of what to expect but when I left, I freely admit to being prejudiced against them. As I say, the only ones I trust are dead ones or to paraphrase what white men used to say about North American Indians, the only good one is a dead one. You may not agree with what I say but I learned the hard way and it was the Muslims who taught me; I have the scars to prove it. You can try approaching them peacefully if you want to but my experiece has shown me you will not be appreciated for your efforts; in fact you will be viewed as weak and degenerate for evening making the effort.

          For my view; we should have no dealings with them and definitely permit no immigrants from there.

          Islam is a poisonous chancre that all precautions must be taken against.

          Don’t forget you’ve only observed them from the outside, I lived amongst them for almost two years. I learned my lessons the hard way.

          [b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

        • #3149075

          Wait a second please

          by onbliss ·

          In reply to I lived right in the midst of them for two years.

          I come from India, where the population of Muslims is just huge. Next only to Indonesia – which has the largest muslim population in the world. I have seen cities being affected by communal riots (fortunately never happened when I lived in a city). It is not pretty. I know the cross-border terrorism that India has been undergoing. Millions of Hindu Pundits have been ethinically cleansed from Jammu, region next to Kashmir.

          I know the appeasement policies of some of the Political parties and also have seen the resulting backlash from certain quarters of Hindus. India has a ***separate Personal Law*** (I think from Sharia) for Muslims. So, I know how it feels to be a majority and perceive the society to dance to the tunes of the minority.

          So my observation is not from outside, but has been living with many of them side-by-side. You are right, they just don’t affect Juedo-Christianity, but affect all religions (and regions) where their count raises above a ***critical number***.

          I have seen Muslims supporting our neighboring country just because of the “faith” factor. And some of the supporting the ****Ulema***.

          [b]Yet I have seen several Muslims who lead their life just normal, like the average Joe.[/b]
          The challenge is to extract the venom from a poisonous snake. If one is able to defang them, then the snakes become pets 🙂 Awww. maybe the analogy is not correct.

          ps: You mention you have been scarred by your exprience, hopefully you get the time to heal. And , I can understand your stance after you having gone thorough a rough experience.

        • #3149040

          Fortunately for you and unfortunatly for me you will never have any idea.

          by sleepin’dawg ·

          In reply to Wait a second please

          My time of living in Egypt was over forty years ago. I wake up everyday with the reminder of what I incurred while trying to protect Arab school children form the excesses of thir own people.

          BTW I know of the huge Muslim populations of India, Indonesia and Malaysia but do you know or realize how radicalized these populations are becoming since the exporting of violence from the home origins of Islam. The blowing up of the three Buddha statues is one thing but random explosions and violence in Bali??? Or East Timor??? Or the Philippines??? Add to that the conflicts in Chechnya and Kosovo and all of it to be laid at the doorstep of Islamic fundamentalism and then tell me once again how peaceful the majority of muslims are.

          I do not believe it because if they were they could and would put a stop to the terrorism and violence. Look at what happened when Hitler took to slaughtering Jews!!! It took some time and effort but the western democracies put an end to that. However, there was another incidence of genocide predating the Holocaust and that was the genocide of two million Armenians which coincidentally was carried out by those wonderfully peaceful Muslims. The world chooses to forget that but as someone once said if we ignore or forget the lessons of history, we will be doomed to repeat them.

          That seems to me precisely what is happening now and with the prospect of Iran acquiring a nuclear capability, one that has suddenly accelerated forward recently and I ask, what the hell more do we, as civilized human beings, have to put up with before we put an end to it.

          I know the kind of mindset these people have and I can tell you now that any and all efforts at diplomatic appeasement and discussion are perceived as weakness and degeneracy and are doomed to failure. The only way you will achieve the ground work for a posssible diplomatic solution is when you have ground their faces into the dirt. That is all they respect and all they will accept.

          The analogy of extracting the venom from a poisonous snake is apt. You grasp it tight by the neck and place its fangs on the edge of a receptacle and milk the venom from it. You cannot defang it because to do so would kill it. So everyday you must extract the venom from the snake being carefu not to be bitten. You will never be able to trust the snake, nor make it a pet but you will get he snake to recognize its place in things and if it become too troublesome, you can cut off its head, taking care to note that the head may well stay alive and biting viciously for hours afterward. Legend claims until sundown. I should write my stepdaughter living at McLeod Gange near Dharmsala to ask her opinion, as she has studied more about Indian medicine and snakes than I am aware of.

          I equate my experience with Muslims to that of the man whose hand is bitten while feeding a dog. Like the proverbial dog, Muslims need to learn it isn’t wise to bite the hand that feeds you. In token of which, why do you think western civilization is now bound and determined to end their dependence on the oil and petroleum products of the Muslim nations; all Muslim nations. Right now the Ulema of Turkey are being rather well behaved because they know which side of the bread their butter is on and are seeking admittance to the ECU.

          The backlash is only getting started, once underway and western reliance on Arab oil is ended, the war in Iraq will be as a slap on the wrist in comparison. Western civilization is becoming increasingly fed up with Islamic Arab terrorist fundamentalism.

          For what it’s worth, I healed a long time ago but I have not, nor will not, ever forget and as for forgiveness, well maybe another day.

          [b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

        • #3148839

          Not on the opposite side of the spectrum

          by onbliss ·

          In reply to Fortunately for you and unfortunatly for me you will never have any idea.

          Though I have not been affected directly, say like you, I do have some idea of what it is. Glad to note that you have healed a long time ago.
          I know some Hindus who are pretty much vexed with the entire situation, and are calling out for the annihilation of Muslims.
          Like the British, one way to conquer is Divide and Rule. As Islam advances it suppresses the native culture, and replaces it with more or less Arabic culture. One way to curtail the negative aspects of Islam is allow the native culture to flourish even under Islam. I am not sure how that is possible, but if we work on it I am sure we will make some progress.

        • #3150384

          Divide and rule?

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Not on the opposite side of the spectrum

          No, but taking a firm stance against every Islamic invasion into new countries is required.

          Flat out and tell them, you intigrate into the society you are moving to, fully following the rules of that new society, or you are NOT WELCOME in this country.

          If they want to live by islamic laws, stay in the GODFORSAKEN lands they came from. They want to enter a CIVILIZED nation, they can not live like rabid dogs that feel they can bite anytime they get their feelings hurt.

          The French deserved everything that happened in the Riots because they didn’t call out the riot police and the military and shut the riots down after the first day. You condone it, you get whatever is handed you.

        • #3150378

          Jdclyde: Yes D & R

          by onbliss ·

          In reply to Not on the opposite side of the spectrum

          [i]umma wahida[/i] is key point that I was thinking of as I wrote about Divide & Rule. It is tough to force 1.2 billion people. But if you divide :-), it gets darn easier.

        • #3150373

          Well Bliss

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Not on the opposite side of the spectrum

          would that be LONG division? ;\

          Again, making them and ALL imigrants conform the the society they are moving to instead of the politically correct BS you hear all the time that we need to change to accomidate them.

          Learn the language if you want to live somewhere.
          Follow the laws, ALL of them.
          Do NOT expect exemption from ANY of the laws based on your religion. You want a drivers license? There are rules for that, including your picture. Don’t want your picture taken? No problem! You just can’t have the license if you make that choice. THAT is your freedom of choice.

          Hate the lifestyle? then don’t move someplace that has a lifestyle that you don’t approve with.

        • #3150260

          JD, something I agree with

          by mjwx ·

          In reply to Not on the opposite side of the spectrum

          We can stop the spread of [b]destructive[/b] Islam into our nations. This is why Australia can?t open the floodgates and let all the asylum seekers in. Yes, to the bleeding harts they have escaped hell, I want to make sure they don?t bring hell with them. It is my opinion that any asylum seeker who sows their own mouth shut should have their application instantly denied on mental health grounds

          Australia, Canada, England, US != Arabia and Persia. We can respect our differences us much as the other side can, that?s why we see all this belligerence from both sides. I believe on fixing our own countries.

          Now being a prime conscription candidate age 23, non core industry, I don?t want to have to fight a war I (Being an atheist) don?t support. This makes me think that my life and millions of other young lives will be wasted to sate the paranoia of the previous generation. Its fine for the old men to go on about how a war will make the world better but I have to fight it.

        • #3150141

          No longer works…

          by onbliss ·

          In reply to Not on the opposite side of the spectrum

          …to keep them separate or isolate. With the globe every shrinking, it is only a matter of fact that we would constantly interact with them.

          When Bush visited India, the communists party protested his visit citing USA’s arm twisting of India on the Iran issue. The muslim’s also protested because what they considered was Bush attitude towards Islam and the middle-east. To me that is utter stupidity to protest on such grounds (religion, Umma being the root). But being a democratic country India had to allow such protests.

          In the next 30yrs or so, when the World further weans away from Oil, the middle-east could experience an Exodus.

          It is imperative and beneficial for the World to educate them, carry out a hug PR exercise and help the moderate muslims.

      • #3149167

        Intolerence breeds intolerence

        by jamesrl ·

        In reply to Okay just to avoid any ambiguity and hypocracy. Mohammed was……………

        I’ve said it before and I will say it again…

        There are over a billion muslims in the world, and it is a very small fraction indeed that are radical terrorists and actively anti-west.

        The Muslim religion is not one institution, and neither is the Christian Church, or the Jewish Religion etc. There are great differences between the groups within each of these religion.

        I have great disgust for the stand of the Roman Catholic church on the role of women in the church, but that doesn’t mean all Roman Catholics are bad. Some feel as I do and try to work for change within the church. And that doesn’t mean everything the church does is tainted. Similarly I feel the same way about how Orthodox Jews treat women, but I know that not all Jews feel that way and that the Orthodox are in the minority.

        In advocating such a one sided view of Muslims, are you not playing right into the hands of the radical muslims, who try to teach their children in the Madrases that all Westerners are evil and hate them. They could take your quote and win over a bunch of moderates.

        I am not a fan of appeasement, I think it is right to take on terrorists of any political stripe or religious origin. But 1 billion muslims are not terrorists. The muslims I know were embarassed and ashamed that someone who professes the same faith would pervert the tenents of their faith so much as to justify the insane acts.

        James

        • #3149134

          Then ask your friends

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Intolerence breeds intolerence

          especially ones that grew up in the middle east, if that isn’t exactly what they were brought up to believe all along, BEFORE the rest of the CIVILIZED world started to stand up to these savage animals?

          We can sit here and twiddle our thumbs hoping that if we leave them alone they will leave us alone. The many attacks around the world over the last three decades have taught us very differently.

          There are even dense and dishonest people out there that try to blame the current hate towards the West on Bush, dispite the fact that the 911 scum was here training for that very day before he even took office.

          Do we say that the 911 attack was Clintons fault? Or are we honest enough to see that this goes back way beyond the last few decades and will only end with a global muslim state. Once the non-believers are dead, then they can work on the cleansing of the believers that are of the wrong flavor.

          When MUSLIMS rise up and START to do something about the terrorists, they are showing that they are willing to go along for the ride, and are guilty by association.

          Embarrased and ashamed? Enough to stand up and say that they are not represented by these animals?

          The world has been too tolerant of too much for too long. Too much tolerance has emboldend the rabid dogs, and that is why OBL thought he could get away with 911, and the Talaban thought they could try to protect him. They were both wrong, and it is our fault that allowed them to think we WOULD take these attacks and run away like Clinton did. Zero tolerance.

          I by no means am saying to take action against muslims in the streets, but I am saying if you have a known member of a terrorist group, they are to be exterminated like the rabid dogs they are. So not wait till they have blown themselves up and then make a show of trying to do a law enforcement action.

        • #3149100

          JD does that apply to members

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Then ask your friends

          of the IRA as well?

          Or how about the Leaders of the Croat Action where so many people where killed in the name of one religion over another?

          How about the Tamil Tigers should they all be hunted down and exterminated?

          Even in Chechen the so called Rebels are only fighting for their Freedom and to be left alone by the Government who does nothing for them but takes their money and other assets so they can be used elsewhere for others benefit.

          Col

        • #3149088

          yes

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to JD does that apply to members

          If people today are attacking US,(us, not U.S) then they are a threat that should be removed with extreme perjudice.

          I do not advocate getting involved in every dispute other people have with their OWN governments. Getting involved in others civil wars has always been a bad thing for us.

          Siding with one evil country against another evil country has always worked against us as well.

          “My enemies enemy is my friend” has always been a recipe for failure. I don’t care how many times it happened in the past, is must stop NOW.

        • #3149076

          What they would tell you

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to Then ask your friends

          Is that they were not taught that non Muslims are evil. They were taught the golden rule. They were taught forgiveness, and charity, including towards others of different faiths.

          One of my muslim friends was brought up in a well to do house in Egypt. Another in South Africa. I’ve met others from other parts of the middle east – many Lebanese, some Iranian. The madrasses are generally aimed at the poor and uneducated.

          Right after 9/11 the church I was at had a visit from a local Imam. He came to tell us why he condemned the terrorist acts and how they were against the teaching in the Koran as he knew them, and how he believed that Jesus was a great teacher and prophet in his religion as well. He wished us peace, and hoped for understanding. He wished justice for those who were killed. And I don’t think he meant in a court.

          I’m not suggesting we leave the terrorists alone. Never have I said that. And I have on many occasions mentioned my support for the Canadians in Afghanistan. The fact that the death toll is rising does not deter me.

          Guilt by association….are we guilty by association because Roman Catholic priests in Rwanda encouraged genocide? Do we condemn all Christians because Germany, a predominantly Christian country committed genocide? I would argue its not that simple. I believe that Christians have learned from the Holocaust and would not take the same stand(hence the support for intervention in Kosovo).

          Clinton btw did not run away- he chose to hit the camps with Tomahawk missles. It wasn’t enough, but it was before 9/11.

          James

        • #3150526

          I remember a time….

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to What they would tell you

          when a few Rangers were killed and drug through the streets. We DID pack up and run for the hills because it was would have been unpopular to stay.

          Hmmm, I don’t recall priests encouraging genocide in Rwanda. I do know that it was a long time building after decades of oppression. I also remember the UN pulling out and leaving all the local staff to be slaughtered, and I would hold them more accountable than anyone (besides the Rwandan’s themselves) because while many nations did not come in to help, the UN was ALREADY THERE and knew first hand what was going on and did not care.

          German Christians or NAZI Christians? I am VERY German, with my grandfather coming over as a boy (before the war). If someone was a NAZI, they HAVE been hunted and prosocuted for their actions, even though it was a “long time ago”, as it well should be. If someone goes to a camp to learn to be a terrorist, they are then a part of that group and should be held accountable as a whole for what that group does, regardless if they are the individual that blew them selves up or if they are still waiting their turn.

          The list that we hear they have in Iran of the 10,000 wannabee maryrs. Get that list, and exterminate them like the dogs they are BEFORE someone that matters is killed. Suicide bombers do not matter.

          I don’t think everyone that is muslim is evil, but the Islamics have shown that they are quite insane and a direct threat to all non-islamic people through out the world. A threat that must be delt with.

        • #3150515

          Rwanda et al

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to I remember a time….

          As for Rwanada, and I risk repeating myself, there was a UN commander on the ground, Romeo D’allaire, from Canada with a multinational UN force on the ground. The Beligians packed up and left, but D’allaire told the UN his plans for a pre-emptive raid on a warehouse full of machete’s axes and other wepaons being gathered. Madeline Albright and Bill Clinton told him in no uncertain terms that he was not to continue. This despite the fact that no US lives were at risk. Kofi Annan did what Clinton told him to. I am not suggesting that Clinton is reposnsible for killing 800,000, but he does have to face some responsibility for making the wrong decision.

          As for the priests, more here;
          http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3671464.stm

          My point about German Christians is that if you blame moderate Muslims for not stopping their radical brethern, then how do you assess German Christians, most of whom did nothing. There is one noteable exception; a lutheran pastor named Diedrich Boenhoffer who was killed by the Nazis for continually standing up for the truth. The RC church of the day, both in German and in Rome remained silent.

          There are over a billion Muslims in the world, and even the worst estimates would show the vast majority are not evil. Yet they are tarred with this brush, over and over again.

          James

        • #3150379

          If there really were so many that are “not evil”

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Rwanda et al

          they they should be able themselves to best stamp out once and for all the evil in their myst, instead of condoning it and standing up for the psyco’s.

          When there is an action against the “evil ones”, it seems like more than just a small minority comes out to stand up for who ever had actions against them.

          The global rioting over something as trivial as a cartoon shows exactly what more than just a select few muslims are like.

          I am sure you have good friends and they are good people. I don’t believe that they are the majoity though, or world events would not be like they are now.

          The good that refuse to do anything about the problem will continue to be seen as part of the same problem. THEY could resolve this better than anyone, but they CHOOSE not to. When they CHOOSE not to, yes hey WILL get tarred with the same stroke.

        • #3150371

          I would repeat

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to Rwanda et al

          If you hold Christians to the same standard you are tyring to apply to Muslims, then you must be very angry at Christians for the Holocaust, Rwanada, Bosnia, Kosovo etc.

          The Roman Catholic Church said nothing against Hitler until after he was dead. Pope John Paul II apologised for the silence of the church some 40 years after the war. Do you hold them to the same standard as you are holding Muslims? Alot more people died in the Holocaust than in all the Islamic terrorist acts in the last 40 years.

          I don’t condone terrorist or genocidal acts of anyone. And I don’t believe you can condemn a whole religion for tha acts of a few nutcases. Blame the terrorists, not the religion. Every religion has had adherents who have done some nasty brutish terroristic type behaviour. I don’t blame Bhuddism or Shintoism for what the Japanese did in WWII, I don’t blame Hinduism for the Muslims in India killed at partition in 1948 (nor do I blame the Muslim religion for the Hindus killed). I don’t blame Christianity for Hitler, or for Milosovich. Its too easy to blame a whole group, but the whole group is not responsible.

          James

        • #3150363

          Well James like it or not they shelter and abet the muslim terrorists …..

          by sleepin’dawg ·

          In reply to Rwanda et al

          amongst them. All it would take is for these supposedly non evil Muslims is to stand forth and identify the perpetraitors amongst them; but it will never happen because the majority of them sympathize with the terrorists. Do not kid yourself about that.

          [b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

        • #3150304

          Dawg and James

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Rwanda et al

          First, Dawg you said right on what I had been trying to say.

          James, when at the core of the religion they advocate death for the horrible crime of converting to Christianity, you can (or at least should be able to) see that the religion is evil down to its core. People that reject that religion are rejecting evil.

        • #3150525

          I remember a time….

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to What they would tell you

          when a few Rangers were killed and drug through the streets. We DID pack up and run for the hills because it was would have been unpopular to stay.

          Hmmm, I don’t recall priests encouraging genocide in Rwanda. I do know that it was a long time building after decades of oppression. I also remember the UN pulling out and leaving all the local staff to be slaughtered, and I would hold them more accountable than anyone (besides the Rwandan’s themselves) because while many nations did not come in to help, the UN was ALREADY THERE and knew first hand what was going on and did not care.

          German Christians or NAZI Christians? I am VERY German, with my grandfather coming over as a boy (before the war). If someone was a NAZI, they HAVE been hunted and prosocuted for their actions, even though it was a “long time ago”, as it well should be. If someone goes to a camp to learn to be a terrorist, they are then a part of that group and should be held accountable as a whole for what that group does, regardless if they are the individual that blew them selves up or if they are still waiting their turn.

          The list that we hear they have in Iran of the 10,000 wannabee maryrs. Get that list, and exterminate them like the dogs they are BEFORE someone that matters is killed. Suicide bombers do not matter.

          I don’t think everyone that is muslim is evil, but the Fundamentalist Islamics have shown that they are quite insane and a direct threat to all non-islamic people through out the world. A threat that must be delt with.

        • #3149073

          James you are free to believe as you will but……………….

          by sleepin’dawg ·

          In reply to Intolerence breeds intolerence

          I haven’t seen the Roman Catholic Church or Orthodox Judaism flying aeroplanes into buildings or sending out children as suicide bombers to detonate themselves among unsuspecting civilians. Oh yes the Muslims claim that they are primarily peaceful but I have yet to see one Islamic leader take any concrete steps to end the onslaught of terror against [b]all other religions[/b]. We tend to forget it isn’t solely the Judeo -Christian culture that is under attack but also that of Hinduism and Buddhism, as witness the blowing up of the three Buddhist statues that had been declared a World Heritage sight and the explosions in Bali.

          Muslims love to point at the Crusades as evidence of the western cultures attacking them but they conveniently forget that the Crusades were only in response to the incurrsions of Islam into Europe. France did not get clear of Islamic forces until the reign of Charlemagne and Spain; not until the year Columbus sailed on his voyages of discovery. Suleiman the Magnificent was assaulting Central Europe well into the middle of the sixteenth century and perhaps longer. At one point of time Islamic cuture was far more advanced than that of Europe but somewhere towards the seventeenth century it went into decline and has been there ever since. The main reason for its decline was the encroaching powers of its imans and ayatollahs and a refusal to look at the power of education and learning which it had once been at the forefront of throughout the early middle ages. In fact what leadership Islam has today would like to turn the clock back to those times of the tenth to twelth centuries.

          I will become more tolerant of Muslims when they stop detonating children and learn to be more tolerant. They must learn to reign themselves in and to date not one Muslim has given any indication of doing so. Maybe peaceful Muslims were ashamed and embarassed but I have yet to see any of them making any efforts to curb the violence. Saying, “Oh dear me, not all Muslims are violent. We are ashamed and embarassed by these people.” does not cut it. If any one group is in an ideal position to stop the violence it is these so called [b]”peaceful Muslims”[/b] but to date they have yet to display any efforts int his regard.

          [b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

        • #3148983

          Dawg the Irish Catholics are just as bad

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to James you are free to believe as you will but……………….

          Although they have maintained their arms and currently have stopped bombing London and other parts of the UK they did manage to nearly kill the then British Prime Minister. They did however manage to kill several of the Cabinet of Maggi Thatcher at that episode.

          London is known for being bombed by the IRA and they are anything but peaceful people they are downright scary as they treat something that happened 400 years ago as if it happened yesterday and seek vengeance for it today. The Pope while asking them to stop never did anything positive about their actions all of which where sanctioned by the Catholic Church in Ireland.

          About 15 years or so ago I meet a recruiter here who was on a Fund Raising Mission for the IRA and the way he spoke about the British was well to say the least astounding and while totally correct the actions being talked about and wanting to be acted upon happened hundreds of years ago.

          At the very least that part of the Catholic Church should be wiped of the face of the planet and I don’t say that lightly either they are one of the very few organizations who really scared me and I don’t scare that easily.

          Col

        • #3148897

          Sadly

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to Dawg the Irish Catholics are just as bad

          Sadly many of the Protestants in Northern Ireland were just as bad. Hence my “Intolerence breeds Intolerence” remarks.

          Both sides in Northern Ireland have been guilty of attrocities, in the forms of bombings, assasinations and provocations. One of the reasons that the IRA (whom I do not defend in any way) are scared to hand in their weapons is they know that there are Protestant terrorists who are more eager to settle scores than to keep the fragile peace. The RUC and the British Army had been guilty in the past of looking the other way, but more recently have cracked down on the protestant groups as much as the IRA and associated groups, and that has contributed much to the peace process.

          James

        • #3148853

          The Irish are pretty bad either the micks or the prods but…………..

          by sleepin’dawg ·

          In reply to Dawg the Irish Catholics are just as bad

          neither of them has taken to wiring up their children as IEDs to be detonated among innocent civilians. They keep focused on their supposed enemy and do not practice random acts of terror upon the uninvolved nations.

          [b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

        • #3150545

          Bombing

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to The Irish are pretty bad either the micks or the prods but…………..

          The pub bombs, bombing at Omagh, these are events designed to kill civilians. They may target one faction or another, but are likely to kill civilians of both sides.

          James

        • #3150441

          James you are missing the point. Nobody but Muslims uses……………….

          by sleepin’dawg ·

          In reply to Bombing

          their children as bombs. Yes, the Irish extremists of either brand blow things and themselves up but only Muslims are so uncivilized as to have taken to turning children into bombs. This in my estimation makes them the scum of the earth and fully justifies any form of retaliation taken against them. Extermination seems to be an appropriate response or solution in light of this.

          [b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

        • #3150414

          Well actually Suicide bombing was invented

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to Bombing

          by the Tamil Tigers – not Muslims. They have been using it for decades.

          So what is your solution – kill every Muslim? Kill every family member of a suicide bomber? Do you think that would bring anyone closer to peace? An eye for an eye and pretty soon the whole world goes blind.

          James

        • #3150364

          Damn James but do you bother reading??? Suicide bombings and……………

          by sleepin’dawg ·

          In reply to Bombing

          self immolation was being practiced long before the Tigers but I keep mentioning the sacrificing of children. What is so difficult about that to grasp???

          Iran had a nifty little practice of barely arming hoardes of children and marching them forward into the gunfire of the Iraqui army. Palestinians would send hundreds of stone throwing children against Israeli controlled check points in what was called the Intafada. These contol points might have held by as many as ten or twelve young Israeli soldiers. When you are only 18 or 19 and you and a few friends are surrounded by [b]hundreds[/b] of stone throwing children I think you might be excused if you became scared witless, because those stones hurt like hell and the only way to stop them is to fire a few shots, supposedly in the air. When that doesn’t work and I can assure you it doesn’t, then you might fire a few shots into the crowd. You are meant to fire low, just to inflict wounds but it is hard to control that when you are young and frightened. Don’t forget the personnel in the check points are barely older than the stone throwers and they are being vastly out numbered.

          But that is the least of it. How do you respond to a child of anywhere from 9-14 years of age, who comes among people going about their day to day living and who has been whipped into a fanatical frenzy by his elders to blow himself up in the name of Allah. The only animals who are doing this are Muslims and as a consequence maybe the appropriate response is, to hunt down the families of these victims and exterminate each and every one of them. Maybe then they might view this sort of act as being counterproductive to whatever claims they may have. BTW they were doing similar things back when I was posted there. The first shots I ever fired in self defence were into a 14 or 15 year old. I shouldn’t have had to do that but his brave courageous elders, gave him a defective AK-47 and sent him against us. Did I regret shooting him??? Yes, but not as much as I would have regretted him shooting me. Until you’ve been up against a similar situation, you have no right to judge me or anyone else for that matter.

          People keep saying not all Muslims are like that and I will keep saying, prove it. If there was any one group who could halt Islamic Terrorism in its tracks, it would be this supposed majority of peaceful Muslims. So far they’ve done nothing and the rate of attacks are increasing. Does that mean that maybe your “peaceful” Muslims aren’t so peaceful after all??? I will restate my viewpoint, [b]”The only Muslim that you can trust, is a dead one.”[/b]

          [b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

        • #3150257

          Yes Dawg

          by mjwx ·

          In reply to Bombing

          Let?s just kill their children and save them the money they would have spent on explosives.

          This is FUD, Fear mongering for which I have little patience

        • #3150165

          Mjwx – Australia still has conscription???

          by sleepin’dawg ·

          In reply to Bombing

          Before I go any further, I must admit to being surprised that Australia still has conscription. Canada hasn’t had conscription since WW II, Britain has given it up quite some time ago and the US has also ended it. I’m not too sure of the European nations but I do know for a fact that Germany no longer has it.

          Why does Australia still have conscription??? Does New Zealand have it as well???

          I don’t quite know what to think about conscription. I can see certain advantages but also many disadvantages for it. Are there ways to avoid conscription??? On what grounds???

          During the Vietnam War many Americans received deferments, usually on the basis of continuing education. Since this usually applied to people with sufficient money to afford an education, it created a situation which cut across race and class lines. It was this inequity which tended to motivate the US into ending conscription.

          I have heard the argument that some form of military service would be “good” for instilling discipline upon the youth of a nation. Perhaps it might but I would think it could also have the oposite effect, if the youth were resentful for having the service imposed upon them. As a former officer, I think I would prefer leading a force of willing volunteers rather than one of sullen, resentful, conscripts but then I’ve got no standard of comparison to justify that opinion, as I never had to deal with any conscripts during my term of service.

          I know Israel has compulsory military service but they are one of the few nations wherein I can see the necessity of conscription. Israel is also the nation whose conscript forces have an esprit du corps which most conscript forces seem to lack.

          I can understand the necessity of conscription under certain circumstances; I’m not sure sufficient cicumstances exist today, to justify it. It certainly doesn’t seem to inspire patriotism or loyalty, if your reactions are anything to go by; in fact I would say it achieves the complete opposite of that desired effect.

          When freedom to choose is removed from your list of options, I can understand the feelings of resentment but as I have never had to face it, I have a hard time grasping or comprehending the idea of it. As I said I can see both pros and cons for it but can’t reach any conclusions. I’m just surprised, that in this day and age, Australia still has conscription.

          [b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

        • #3150139

          James: Not Tamil Tigers

          by onbliss ·

          In reply to Bombing

          I read somewhere that the Tamil Tigers grasped it – suicide bombing – from somewhere else. They were not the pioneers. I do not have the references, hopefull I get them sometime today or tomorrow for you.

        • #3150131

          Conscription in Canada

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to Bombing

          Canada never really had conscription – let me explain.

          In the first “overseas” war that Canada officially fought in, the Boer war, there was no conscription.

          There was talk of conscription during WWI as Canada sent masses of troops and the need for replacements grew. But it caused riots in Quebec and was never implmented.

          In WWII, initially there was no consription, primarily to appease Quebec. But as time went on and the needs grew, conscription did take place, but those drafted were only to be used in Canada for home defense. Eventually this too broke down late in 1944 and some few thousands were sent to the front. They were called Zombies and they arrived too late and in too few numbers to actually make any difference. But they did stir up riots in Quebec again.

          My point is that the vast majority (over 99%) of those Canadians who served overseas were volunteers. Though we did have some level of conscription it didn’t really have a major impact on the war – though it had a political impact long after the war.

          James
          There has not been conscription since.

          James

        • #3149906

          Conscription can easily be re-introduced during a time of war

          by mjwx ·

          In reply to Bombing

          or a time of impending war, like Vietnam. There were peacetime conscriptions before we entered. We are a constitutional monarchy, not quiet a US style democracy but we are still a free people. Its more or less the same in Canada isn?t it?

          We currently don?t have it any mandatory service at the moment. In fact the armed forces are redoubling their recruiting efforts because of both a drop in enlistment and increasing capacity in our armies.

          I was merely trying to point out that I was a good candidate, smart enough to fire a weapon and dumb enough to get killed.

        • #3150375

          My first exposure to radical Islam

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to James you are free to believe as you will but……………….

          was on a trip to Toronto for Unix training.

          Some younger guys had got in a taxi, and the driver had some religious chant music playing.

          The young guys, being disrespectful as young guys can be, told him to “turn that sh!t off”.

          He pulled over right there and told them to get out of his cab. They did. As they did, one guy had to run his mouth one last time and said “Alah sucks!”.

          The cabbie ran him over.

          This was either in 1999 or 2000.

          Guess not everyone that lives in Canada is a peaceful tree hugger, huh? Yes, the young guys were canadians too.

        • #3150366

          Thats hardly radical islam

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to My first exposure to radical Islam

          That is street cred. If you walked into a ghetto in Detroit, you walked up to a bunch of young toughs on the corner, and someone was playing 50 cent and you hollered, “turn that sh!t off”, what do you think would happen to you?

          I think if you were in a Greek cab in Toronto and someone was playing greek music, and you did the same thing, you might stand a pretty good chance of getting run over.

          I never said that we were all tree huggers here – you did. Lower crime does not equal no crime. I still lock my doors at night. And if you think all Canadians are tree huggers, try reading some Canadian military history.

          James

        • #3150302

          I know

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Thats hardly radical islam

          but do I really have to remain serious all the time? ;\

        • #3150157

          Of course not

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to I know

          I was having a good chuckle imagining sending you into a few neighbourhoods in Toronto. I envisioned you going to a neighbourhood with Korean restaurants and yelling something nasty about them cooking dogs, and having them stuff kim chee down your throat.

          Why that came to mind is I was watching a food network program on hot sauces, and they had one sauce with a heat rating (some term named after the guy who invented it) of 7.1 million, versus Tobasco at 5000 and really hot habenero and scotch bonnet sauces at 30,000.

          This sauce is a concentrate meant to be used as an additive – one drop to 10 gallons of chili.

          Anyway there was a competition and they had this sauce for the bravest tasters to try. They had special handlers for it with rubber bloves and masks(they still teared up just taking a tiny amount out of the bottle and putting it in small plastic cups.

          They dispensed the cups with a very small portion and the tasters were advised to take just a pin drop amount. One guy decided to take a little more and really paid the price. The cameraman captured the guy turning red, sweating and losing equilibrium. All the water, bread, yoghurt, milk and whipped cream that they had on the table could not cool this guy and they were close to calling the paramedics.

          Of course I would never wish that for you, my friend…..

          James

        • #3150059

          “The Source”

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to I know

          http://www.hotsauceworld.com/source.html

          I saw that one.

          “The Source” was so far out of the realm of everything else, it was not even part of the competition.

          On a volunteer basis, a few brave (stupid?) souls tried this, a tip of a tooth pick dabbed in it was all they got.

          This is the one I like and use twice a week.
          http://www.hotsauceworld.com/davgourinsau.html
          51,000 scoville units

          Yeah, it isn’t in the 7.5 mill range, but it does the job and DOESN’T cost $90 a bottle!.

          You take my chili out of the fridge and take a bite and you will start to sweat. mmmmmmm! 😀

          (hey GG, add a “licking your chops” emoicon to the wish list!)

        • #3150133

          Talking about Cab experiences.

          by onbliss ·

          In reply to My first exposure to radical Islam

          Once when I had taken a cab to work. I pointed to the driver, using my finger, the exact door entrance I preferred him to stop. The building had two door entrances.
          The driver just got upset and asked me to NEVER point finger. I was just new to USA, and this behavior kind of scared me out. I did not know if I had offended him or what.

        • #3149903

          I think this guy was just a prick

          by mjwx ·

          In reply to Talking about Cab experiences.

          They exist everywhere and for the most part drive taxi’s

        • #3150258

          Know your enemy

          by mjwx ·

          In reply to Intolerence breeds intolerence

          Know yourself and victory will always be yours. As I have said before I’m a bit of a fan of Sun Tzu.

          The terrorists. A small group who are extremely dedicated to their cause, not very well trained but possess more than enough training for their task. Adept at hiding and striking an enemy from their exposed side. Their other main weapon is propaganda, effectiveness depends on the level of desperation (poverty, low education). Support needed is minimal

          The WOT forces (War On Terror). Multiple large armies operating far from their homeland. Adept at destroying other armies. Easy to spot, slow moving, high firepower, relatively undedicated compared to their enemies. Little in the way of propaganda, Population control is necessary and achieved by force. Requires a significant amount of support to be delivered from a distance.

          The US trying to perform surgery with a broadsword. What you need is a scalpel. A small force of [b]highly trained[/b] individuals to combat a small force of [b]highly dedicated[/b] individuals. Using the snake analogy, if you cut off its head.

        • #3150130

          Book suggestion.

          by onbliss ·

          In reply to Know your enemy

          Sorry for the unsolicited suggestion :-). If my memory serves me right, this might be the second time I see you mentioning Sun Tzu. I was wondering if you had heard or read “Arthasaastra”, an Indian treatise that dwells on economics, government and WARFARE. If not you might find it interesting as well.

          I knew companies that used “Art of War” as their Sales training material 🙂

        • #3149910

          Not yet

          by mjwx ·

          In reply to Book suggestion.

          But its now on the list. Is there an english translation I can read.

      • #3150263

        It sounds like you want

        by mjwx ·

        In reply to Okay just to avoid any ambiguity and hypocracy. Mohammed was……………

        A crusade. Number 7 this time as I understand it.

        Politics? aside and lets talk practical strategy. Mind if I ask you how you would do things.

        Which regions need to be attacked, from where will the attack be launched, in what order, where does the campaign end?

        How do you intend to keep the populations subdued? First whilst continuing the campaign and later after the campaign is finished?

        Conventional or NBC (Nuclear Biological Chemical)?

        Every war since WWI, the US (I know your a Canadian but lets look at the US for population, military strength etc..) has had a cap on the amount of casualties it can take before the army collapses so a cap was set lower than this to prevent a quagmire. What would this number be?

        How do you intend to combat dissent from back home? Wars are not popular, I don?t know about the US and Canada but AU is fairly non-religious and pretty multicultural, for us at least, the minorities could become a problem in a religious war?

        What about allies? what input will you take from your allies, will they act as separate entities (WWI) will there be a SAC (Supreme allied command) and if so will the SAC decide where the nations go and leave the strategies up to them or will it maintain control over armies separate from their individual governments.

        I’m a bit of a fan of Sun Tzu so here are the 5 keys to victory. Straight from the book (translated).

        (1) The Moral Law; (2) Heaven; (3) Earth; (4) The Commander; (5) Method and discipline.

        1. The Moral Law causes the people to be in complete accord with their ruler, so that they will follow him regardless of their lives, undismayed by any danger.

        2. Heaven signifies night and day, cold and heat, times and seasons.

        3. Earth comprises distances, great and small; danger and security; open ground and narrow passes; the chances of life and death.

        4. The Commander stands for the virtues of wisdom, sincerely, benevolence, courage and strictness.

        5. By method and discipline are to be understood the marshalling of the army in its proper subdivisions, the graduations of rank among the officers, the maintenance of roads by which supplies may reach the army, and the control of military expenditure.

        Here’s my interpretation
        1. The moral law. On whose side are the people.
        2. Heaven. Weather patterns, seasons and luck.
        3. Earth. The terrain that must be fought on, distances from your base of power (homeland).
        4. The Commander. Who has the better general. Who can create the better battle plan.
        5. Method and discipline. What state is the army in. which one is more dedicated.

        Looking forward to your answers

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