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Maybe not appropriate - but IMPORTANT

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by mrafrohead

Closed to new repliesThis discussion is closed. It stays readable, but it takes no new replies.

I honestly don't know if this is the place to post this type of thing, but I feel that all involved in the computer world should read this. I am refraining from making any personal opinion on this one as I feel that the message speaks for itself. This is a letter I got from Bugtraq in it's entirety.

_____ Begin message below _____

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

___ ___ ___ ___ _ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ _ _ ___ ___ _______
/ __|/ _ \| _ ) _ ) | | __/ __| / __| __/ __| | | | _ \_ _|_ _\ \ / /
| (_ | (_) | _ \ _ \ |__| _|\__ \ \__ \ _| (__| |_| | /| | | | \ V /
\___|\___/|___/___/____|___|___/ |___/___\___|\___/|_|_\___| |_| |_|
"Putting the honey in honeynet since '98."

Introduction:
Several months ago, GOBBLES Security was recruited by the RIAA (riaa.org)
to invent, create, and finally deploy the future of antipiracy tools. We
focused on creating virii/worm hybrids to infect and spread over p2p nets.
Until we became RIAA contracters, the best they could do was to passively
monitor traffic. Our contributions to the RIAA have given them the power
to actively control the majority of hosts using these networks.

We focused our research on vulnerabilities in audio and video players.
The idea was to comeup with holes in various programs, so that we could
spread malicious media through the p2p networks, and gain access to the
host when the media was viewed.

During our research, we auditted and developed our hydra for the following
media tools:
mplayer (www.mplayerhq.org)
WinAMP (www.winamp.com)
Windows Media Player (www.microsoft.com)
xine (xine.sourceforge.net)
mpg123 (www.mpg123.de)
xmms (www.xmms.org)

After developing robust exploits for each, we presented this first part of
our research to the RIAA. They were pleased, and approved us to continue
to phase two of the project -- development of the mechanism by which the
infection will spread.

It took

54 replies

by mrafrohead

Our system works by first infecting a single host. It then fingerprints a
connecting host on the p2p network via passive traffic analysis, and
determines what the best possible method of infection for that host would
be. Then, the proper search results are sent back to the "victim" (not the
hard-working artists who p2p technology rapes, and the RIAA protects). The
user will then (hopefully) download the infected media file off the RIAA
server, and later play it on their own machine.

When the player is exploited, a few things happen. First, all p2p-serving
software on the machine is infected, which will allow it to infect other
hosts on the p2p network. Next, all media on the machine is cataloged, and
the full list is sent back to the RIAA headquarters (through specially
crafted requests over the p2p networks), where it is added to their records
and stored until a later time, when it can be used as evidence in criminal
proceedings against those criminals who think it's OK to break the law.

Our software worked better than even we hoped, and current reports indicate
that nearly 95% of all p2p-participating hosts are now infected with the
software that we developed for the RIAA.

Things to keep in mind:
1) If you participate in illegal file-sharing networks, your
computer now belongs to the RIAA.
2) Your BlackIce Defender(tm) firewall will not help you.
3) Snort, RealSecure, Dragon, NFR, and all that other crap
cannot detect this attack, or this type of attack.
4) Don't fuck with the RIAA again, scriptkids.
5) We have our own private version of this hydra actively
infecting p2p users, and building one giant ddosnet.

by mrafrohead

Due to our NDA with the RIAA, we are unable to give out any other details
concerning the technology that we developed for them, or the details on any
of the bugs that are exploited in our hydra.

However, as a demonstration of how this system works, we're providing the
academic security community with a single example exploit, for a mpg123 bug
that was found independantly of our work for the RIAA, and is not covered
under our agreement with the establishment.

Affected Software:
mpg123 (pre0.59s)
http://www.mpg123.de

Problem Type:
Local && Remote

Vendor Notification Status:
The professional staff of GOBBLES Security believe that by releasing our
advisories without vendor notification of any sort is cute and humorous, so
this is also the first time the vendor has been made aware of this problem.
We hope that you're as amused with our maturity as we are. ;PpPppPpPpPPPpP

Exploit Available:
Yes, attached below.

Technical Description of Problem:
Readthe source.

Credits:
Special thanks to stran9er@openwall.com for the ethnic-cleansing shellcode.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: Hush 2.2 (Java)
Note: This signature can be verified at https://www.hushtools.com/verify

wlwEARECABwFAj4jBA0VHGdvYmJsZXNAaHVzaG1haWwuY29tAAoJEBzRp5chmbAP4gwA
oKmMyRIxA74KZfAVv3MsEBKCZxRMAJsFFhywKWzMoiT/Qiy4FV+r1inukA==
=OjMp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

by mrafrohead

Somehow, my cut and paste abilities just suck;\

Where section one ends and section two begins, this paragraph below should have been there. I apologize for any inconvenience.

_____ Missing Paragraph Start _____

It took us about a month to develop the complex hydra, and another month to
bring it up to the standards of excellence that the RIAA demanded of us. In
the end, we submitted them what is perhaps the most sophisticated tool for
compromising millions of computers in moments.

_____ End Missing Paragraph _____

by thechas

Assuming this is true, and I have no reason to doubt it is, I will stop all support of the recording industry.

I am not an active P2P file sharer. My son does download some music and other files on one of the networks.

That said, it is Fascist tactics and philosophies such as those pointed out that are at the root of the recording industries problems.

While I have no doubt that the P2P networks have cut into profits, the RIAA needs to understand that they are now near the bottom of the entertainment dollar spending list. Without file sharing, the average teen will just stop listening to a lot of music.

If the RIAA succeeds in it's quest to stop MP3's and file sharing, all they will do is hasten the end of the recording industry.

Why?
Since the dawn of the cassette recorder, teens have been recording and sharing some of their music. Not to rip-off the industry, but because they could not afford all the music they desired. If and when they have extra money, many teenswent ahead and bought the records they liked. Without the ability to share the music, untold numbers of records may not have been sold.

By shutting down the file sharing systems, the RIAA will not be protecting profits, but will instead be shutting down a form of FREE advertising.

Further, by using the fascist draconian measures outlined, the RIAA will draw the ire of it's consumer base.

The RIAA has to be shown that every blank tape or blank CD is NOT a lost sale.

I have no sympathy for the RIAA or the recording industry. They have been ripping off the artists and the public since the 1930's.

If the RIAA genuinely wants to stop file sharing, they need to reduce the industry overhead and reduce the cost of CD's to a reasonable level. If the average CD had a retail price of $5, file sharing would all but cease.

Chas

by mrafrohead

I can definately agree with that. I normally will only purchase a CD of quality from an artist that is good. Most of the garbage that is released from the music industry is lame premixed crap. I can not rationalize spending more money on a CD than on a DVD for nothing but total CRAP! Hence my MP3 collection. But I will say this. If the price for the disks were five bucks each. I would honestly rather have the CD's then. As you can't be that with a bat;)

That's the reason I bought the new Korn CD when it was released. It was eight bucks. I feel that that was a fair price for a cd. And the group it came from has talent, versus these boy bands and hot chicks with crappy voices.

Mrafrohead

by fandv

I can say that this seems to me very similar to what nowadays excellent people name "terrorist attack".

With a bad new.

Under attack are our sons.

by grail

As I read this through, a point occurred to me relating to this group's slogan ("putting the honey in the honeynet since '98").

If the hydra gains access to the host when the media are viewed, it does rather suggest that you can neutralise it entirely using a separate machine. For example, I have two Macs and a PC at home; if I were to use the PC for filesharing with Kazaa, and to preview the files, then I can be certain whether or not they're infected before copying them to the Mac (even assuming the hydra can infect Macs, which seems unlikely). If your downloading box gets poisoned, therefore, toast it. People with one machine can use multiple installations on one hard drive.

The main point of that explanation, however, is this: what one person can lock, another can unlock. Banning or attacking something drives it underground; it doesn't tackle the root causes of a problem. That's what the RIAA and this group ought to be doing; otherwise, they'll never succeed. New media players and filesharing networks will pop up, and the hydra gets defanged again. Yawn. Give us a real initiative so we can use something that is both legal and of value.

by admin

is quite similar to this. A box that is disposible and takes the fall for the real destination.

Also you could check file sizes etc. for before\after infection and find out what it's putting in and develop and distribute a scanner\cleaner. Someone here wanted to get started in the industry.... well if you do this first you will get some attention.

:)

by madroxxx

Isn't this illegal? I am pretty sure that unauthorized use of a private computer is considered hacking. Even more the suggestion that they are building a slew of zombie hosts for a DOS attack. I suggest you forward this to the FBI.

by mallardtooxx

Call in the surfs and flog the gentry we are at war man! first the RIAA next the government of cuba! HA. This is the resounding line that tells me that this is a bunch of hooey. And I quote "So don't F**K with us scriptkids" that tells me that any 13 year old with the time and inclenation, could defeat this. I am afraid we are entering the dark ages now kids. Where the tired and belecose record industry tries one last desperate time to claw back into the main stream just before it dies.From the sounds of this post I would say the "Inquisition" is just around the corner though. Let these fools into my commputer, let them see just what I have, let them wiggle and die when they tap into "dark" sectors of my system. I just can't seem to think this is anything but a ploy. Please oh please we can't afford to put or mistresses up in style anymore. I know what we'll do, lets make a new virus that targets windows. That is a good Idea, then not only can we choke on our own fat andbloated tongues, but we can pull microsoft down with us. Maybe P2P is the magic bullet linux has been waiting for. For now I wcan say I agree with the Chas, I will never purchase another record again as long as I live. I will only "Steal" my musicfrom limewire and Kazaa, Screw the record execs because they are nothing but crooks to begin with.

by mrafrohead

Mallard - stay off of Limewire and Kazaa

Use WinMX. I know some of the people that wrote it and there are no "ill-intentions" coded into it.

Another thing. The RIAA has been petitioning our government recently for rights to be able to hackour computers and see what they have on them. They want it to be legal for them to come after us, and also not be held responsible if they mess up our machines.

As for the comments above regarding the "dont f**k with us scriptkiddies" I know it makes them sound like something to not worry about, but I have heard of this group before. I have read that they're able to back up what they claim. I know that there is always someone faster and better, but these guys are good. Probably not to bemessed with.

As for forwarding this to the FBI. I honestly don't know if they would do anything with it, or if it's something that is right to do. I believe more in leaving the law out of it and just "fighting back".

Here's a little educational reading for you guys though, if you're interested:

www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/28842.html

Mrafrohead

by tomsal

I can believe that this technology exists and I wouldn't be all that surprised if everything said in that post is genuine and is actually be done.

I also think the RIAA is shooting itself in the foot. They are making the "Microsoft Mistake" - which is basically they do zero to improve their image, all the while acting like *all* their users (or in this case "customers") are complete idiots devoid of any rational thought or logic.

And the RIAA wonders why so many MILLIONS of people loathe them?

At any rate, I've always been a very casual buyer of audio CDs. In the last 10 years I probably bought less than three dozen audio CDs (and about a dozen of those I bought for like $12 through one of those Columbia House deals).

So no bigdeal for me to not buy any audio CDs, its not like a huge temptation issue for me or something. lol.

I agree in the notion that sales would much improve for the RIAA if it chopped all costs down by about 50%, if CD's were like $5-7 consistently for new releases, I bet you sales volume would go through the roof.

Right now its too easy to justify burning your own CD. Cost of a CD $0.89 + time to find songs and burn cd -vs- Buying the CD for $15 to $18 = WORTH THE TIME TO BURN THE CD.

Ofcourse that's what I *think* is the mentality of most.

And you have to admit, with the volumes of sales in the past -- is it really needed to have such HUGE overhead on each CD?

(Poor music artists and executives will have to settle for the $10 million mansion instead of the $20 million mansion...poor folks..how do you survive?)

by oldefar

My gut feeling is that this is a hoax. I don't find any reference to the hydra on any virus postings, but I also don't find any reference yet to this as being one.

I do find it interesting that on a tech site there is a expectation that such an approach can be done and that a legitimate business entity (RIAA) would be willing to fund and initiate such an action. Our ethical expectation of businesses sure has dropped. How sad.

I also find it interesting that the response is to boycott or fight back at an individual level. Do we also have a low expectation of our legal system to address such issues?

I am not a lawyer, but it seems to me that the email indicates a choice to violate wire tap laws, to ignore innocence until proven guilty, to engage in illegal search and siezure, and to destroy personal property. I believe all goverments in the world are opposed to some if not most of these.

A most troubling posting whether hoax or real.

by krm

"I also find it interesting that the response is to boycott or fight back at an individual level. Do we also have a low expectation of our legal system to address such issues?"

Yes. Our legal system is bought and paid for by the rich, to benefit only the rich. The rich buy the people who make the laws. The rich make the contributions that influence teh judges as well, and the law in this country is so mired in obscure, convuluted language that no one but a lawyer could understand...

Ihave very low expectations of our courts and government, they belong to the rich corporations, we the people mean nothing to them...

by maxwell edison

Man, talk about class envy.

I do agree, however, that the "justice" in the "system" sometimes takes a back seat to "legal" double-talk, back-talk, and other mumbojumbo.

by mrafrohead

Oldefar, unfortunately with this type of issue. The RIAA has our Government in their pocket. The legal system will be of no help to us. They haven't done anything yet, I'm next to positive that they won't do anything in the future. Between the RIAA and MPAA we have no rights what so ever. I honestly don't even think a boycott will help as they will only blame the loss of sales to pirating and not that they just plain suck you know what... That way the politicians feel bad for them.

If you have ever noticed, when using the P2P programs. There are a lot of "corrupt" and 5Meg files with "nothing" in them??? That would be our friends hard at work at the RIAA trying to make things more difficult than it's worth.

To the RIAA: You may shut down some of our P2P, but you can't touch our FTP;)

The only way to handle this particular situation would be to fight back on our own terms. Remember, they have been lobbying the government to make it legal to hack our pc's and see whatwe do and don't have on them and any damage that's done when that happens they can't be held responsible for. They have no scruples and are not afraid to "bend" the law if it is in their favor.

In our fine country, the "little" person has reallyno say in any matter. Hence the reason we need to do it ourselves. If they truly do do this. I can almost guarentee that there will be a swift and steadfast retaliation that will more than likely affect much more than their pocketbooks.

Another thing to say to show you the raw greed the RIAA posesses. Did you know that they are trying to pass law that states if you purchase an album from a second hand store. You have to pay royalties back to the RIAA for it. Even though they have already been paid for once previously???

Mrafrohead

by oldefar

I read a lot of intelligent comments in these discussions, but I also see emotionalism clouding judgement. The RIAA issue over digital recordings is not something I can get excited about. The idea of mailicious code getting corporate or goverment sponsorship is.

What really bothers me, though, is the widespread belief that the "little guy" is powerless. That is a myth I would like to see die. History is full of little guys taking a stand for their values and changing society. It is never easy, and some pay the ultimate price.

What are we are really saying when we claim the rich, or the powerful, or the employer, or the government, or the legal system will always have power over us little guys? We are saying that the issue is not big enough, or we aren't brave enough, to stand up for our values. That is what it really boils down to.

Guess this comes off as an emotional outburst clouding judgement? Oh well, we all have our windmills.

by thechas

If I did not know that the RIAA is lobbying the US Congress to allow it to "Legally" invade any computer that it suspects contains illegitimate copies of copyrighted music, I too would think this is a hoax.

The RIAA is convinced that EVERY blank audio tape video tape, CD ROM and DVD ROM is ONLY used to make illegitimate copies of copyrighted works.

Only now, does the technology exist so that the RIAA can make an Orwellian scan of our PCs.

Chas

by cactus pete

OK, I'm giving it 50/50 as to whether it's a hoax. As others have said, how sad that there is even the possibility...

But, if you assume this is true, then the RIAA has to take measures not to infect my legitimate files. There are a few legit mp3s out there that are totally free. Don't touch them. Here's my reasoning:

I can have mp3s of all my work, not shared at all. I d/l others' legit mp3s that are legally free for all. But one of them has downloaded an illegal one and become infected, so the legit file I got from them infected my totally legit box and sent this info back to the RIAA.

Class action, bring them to their knees kinda lawsuit just waiting for them. No more RIAA. In fact, as someone else pointed out a certainresemblance to MS, the RIAA is acting like a monopoly... I wonder if they can be 'investigated' or something...

by ahriman

All that has been said, none of it is proved until it happens. History has always been the greatest teacher, and the record industry will be no exemption. The computer sharers of the world will find way around any and all hacks, cracks, and viruses that may affect peoples files or programs. That in its self will teach them a lesson just like MS. Tomorrow will always be better and worse. Everyone knows that privacy is non-existant on a P2P network. But everyone wants to believe it and keeps trying to make it better. Plus, since the days of BBB, and and all information on the information superhighway can be explotied for better or worse. Just keep on sharing, and time will tell. The wheel keeps turning and chaos will always win.

by thechas

If nothing else, this concept should give all corporate and school IT managers all the ammunition that they need to force all users to remove and not use any file sharing software on any PC that connects to their network.

Imagine the fun the RIAAcould have if it obtained access to your companies or schools network!!

Chas

by mrafrohead

Like the (whatever it's called;)) thought it'd be funny to include one in a different thread.

Anyhow... You know Chas - I ONLY have been thinking of this from a home user point of view. The truth that you have spoken above isn't just an eye opener, but downright scary. Never had I ever considered this angle with this type of thing. And to think that I was concerned before...

Mrafrohead

by oldefar

Chas is right - such an action would not only impact home users. Schools and corporations would be affected. That means there is a high probability of goverment systems being impacted as well - either through their links to universities or throughbusinesses with goverment contracts.

How does this play with the idea that the US government would not fight this? Keep in mind this same government went after MS to play nice.

by mrafrohead

Alright, immediately after I read this message that I posted in the beginning. I started threads in all major forums that I belong to. I wanted to make sure to get this information out to all as fast as possible, just in case there is validity to the claims.

In a thread on http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=242220#post242220 Doom9 - this link was posted.

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,827970,00.asp

This above link states that the whole thing is a fraud per RIAA.
My opinion still stands as it is a very real and possible threat. In the world of computers just about anything is possible. And just because we haven't seen it yet, doesn't mean that it's not possible. I would say that the RIAA is just trying to cover their arse's on this one. They are pursuing this in the court systems to make what was stated in the above thread a reality and legal. So I wouldn't be surprised if they have started to tinker with the actual creation of something of the sort.

But, for arguments sake, I wanted to make sure to include any downplay on the possibilities of the above statements so everyone here that cares or is new to this topic has a chance to hear from both sides of the story and not just one of them.

Mrafrohead

by thechas

Thanks for the information mrafrohead.

I followed along to some of the links in the article.

Perhaps we'll never know if this was a hoax, or if the RIAA decided to cut their losses in the light of public outcry.

Either way, we need to keep a vigilant eye on ANY legislation that may impact our PCs and networks.

Chas

by mrafrohead

Here are a few things to watch then.

DRM
RIAA
MPAA
Fair Use
Palladium
DMCA

These few things above are all tied together and will be instrumental in the future rights or lack thereof within the pc world.

The Register and Wired News are some great sources of information.

Also the Doom9 forums.

Mrafrohead

by mrafrohead

What you say makes a lot of sense and does not sound like an emotional outburst.

Where I am coming from is this. I don't forsee the Government stepping in to help us on this issue as we are the little guy's. We don't have pockets as deep as theRIAA and the Government isn't going to listen to us.

BUT - I am NOT saying lay down and let them rape us all. Personally, I'm more into taking things into my own hands.

I had written a lot of stuff where the text you're now reading is, but think that it's out of line. I'm just going to leave it at this. I believe in standing up for yourself. On the net, you're pockets no longer matter as they do in real life. It's your smarts. I can tell you if the RIAA truly does try to pull this off. They will never find a true home on the net again. This is in direct violation of our rights and freedoms and if they want to try to take it away from us, we'll be more than happy to return the favor.

So I hope that this makes some sense. Never compromise yourself. And when the law won't help you, take things into your own hands and you'll get better results, faster anyhow;)

Mrafrohead

by oldefar

I wonder if the RIAA could make the same claim -

"Never compromise yourself. And when the law won't help you, take things into your own hands and you'll get better results..."

There are sound business and technical challanges to the RIAA position on file copying. These have nothing to do with whether an individual should or should not have a right to copy music or video files.

by mrafrohead

When the RIAA is trying to make it so you can't make MP3's of your CD's that you have purchased there's something wrong there. There's a law called Fair Use. And the DMCA is in direct conflict with that.

The RIAA claims that ALL blank media is used strictly for pirating their products, which is downright BS. I've got to put my pr0n somewhere ;)

In all seriousness though. If I buy a disk, I should be able to copy it to other blank media and according to Fair Use, it is legal to do anda RIGHT of ours!!! I always make Mp3's and stick them on my computer so I can keep my fat butt in the chair and not go hunting down the disk. I make a CD for my car and another for my bedroom and keep the original in the living room.

Only ones playing at the same time as it's damned near impossible to synch them all up at the same time.

I honestly think they need to reevaluation their business tactics and realize. If it wasn't for us, they wouldn't be here. So it's time to start standing up for those who made them what they are and stop trying to shaft us.

Mrafrohead

by mrafrohead

Maxwell...

I'm really dissapointed in the statement that you just made. I have always held what you post in very high regard until just now. That was very tactless and disapointing. Not to mention just plain rude.

And I'm not rich either.
Mrafrohead

by maxwell edison

I think you misunderstood my intention, but you're right. I brought it on myself by the way it was stated. I should have known that such an abrupt comment could be taken the wrong way. So in that regard, I failed to communicate my thoughts effectively. But it was certainly not my intention to be rude. (I'm not rich either, by the way.) The post to which I replied was just dripping with "blame the rich" for everything that's wrong with anything. To those who make $20k a year, people who make $40k are rich, and to them, those who make $80k are rich, and to them, those who make 200k are rich, and to them - and on it goes. And it's not just the rich (whoever they are) who are being blamed. Blame the rich. Blame the right. Blame the left. Blamethe schools. Blame big business. Blame the restaurant for making the coffee too hot. It's everywhere. It's permeating every aspect of society. How can that be constructive?

I do honestly believe that a culture of "class envy" - or more accurately, "class blame" - is being fostered by the mainstream media and by politicians who are out to get votes. "Vote for me”, they say, “ and I'll take from the rich and give to you, and I’ll solve all your problems”. (Suggesting that people are incapable of solving their own.) What ever happened to self-responsibility? What ever happened to self-determination? It may not be easy, and it may not seem fair. But where is it written that accomplishments are easy and that life is fair? Efforts to attempt to make it easy and fair are, in my opinion, the very thing that’s holding people back from realizing their true potential.

It would take a lot more time and dialogue to fully discuss this, and it’s not the topic of the discussion. So I should have taken a pass on saying anything. If you can believe that my intention was not to insult, then there you have it.

by mallardtooxx

I gotta say maxwell that was a nice recovery=) However upon reading your post I did not think of you in any different light. You are right in a way on this that has been left untapped. It is all about envy, too bad people are misplacing it. According to Websters the definition of rich is and I quote "Possessing great material wealth: ?Now that he was rich he was not thought ignorant any more, but simply eccentric? (Mavis Gallant). To me that sums up the whole class envy debate. If you are "Rich" you are not thought of in the same light as the average joe. But in all truth, what is all the money in the world without support and love? Nothin but a tool. To me it is the richness of family worth striving for and the money just helps togrease the wheels and keep things on track. I did not see your post as a "I am better than you so suck eggs" post, I saw it as a short concise statement of fact. The fact that you took the time to explain yourself and clear it up proves you are anempathetic individual. I agree with your statement, to a point, I however am rich =) I have a wife two great kids and a Job I love, that makes me at least feel rich even if monatarily I am not =) Good post, no blood, no foul.
-duck

by mrafrohead

I appreciate you taking the time to claify the previous post. I see where you were going now as I didnt' see this before.

I do agree with the blame part. Most people do blame everything but themselves as it's the easy way out. Again falling out of the courage pool. Because it's easier to blame someone and save face than it is to suck it up and endure the consequences.

In my opinion. Where I am talking about the rich. I'm talking about the filthy stinking rich. At the very least seven to eight digit income. From what I see, those are the people that tend to step on the rest of us as if it's nothing and then get disgusted that we're stuck on the bottom of their shoes. Complete disregard for our humanity, as we're treated as objects. Just look at Corporate America and you'll easily see what I'm talking about.

The self determination. I think that it's beginning to be a thing of the past if you're from this country. It's sickening to me. We have foreigners that willcome here to live the American dream. Start with nothing but a nickel in their pocket and start a business and raise a family with VALUES and ETHICS and MORALS. While the rest of us fat, lazy Americans sit on our asses with our hands out whining because we want what they have, but don't want to WORK for it.

I think the RIAA is acting as a fat lazy american. They are holding out their hands crying for a hand out. They are not putting work into their products, at least not hard work, andexpecting mass compensation for it. Shame on them.

by mrafrohead

For self-responsibility. What's that anymore??? Why be responsible for yourself when there's a lawyer to place blame on someone else for you. Like P2P software makers/users that are being blamed for profit loss's when it's actually due to inferior products.

Personally, I wish life was easy, but it isn't. But it SHOULD be fair!!!

Last thing. Maxwell or anyone else. If no one else objects, I invite you to take this discussion this way and not worry about the topic. It's an open forum - I would love to hear what you all have to say.

Mrafrohead

by jkaras

LOL, yes I agree he is very well informed individual but his attitude shows at times. We are in the same age bracket whereas he is from a different time frame. It doesnt make him a bad person, just thinks he's seen it all. Then again... we being younger think we know everything most of the time, LOL. It's all good.

by maxwell edison

jkaras, some things you said:

"...his attitude shows at times."

Couldn't that be said of everyone? And that's not necessarily a bad thing, is it?

"...he is from a different time frame."

Time is relative.

"...just thinks he's seen it all."

No, not even close. In fact, the more I live and learn, the more I realize how little I know and how much there is to learn.

"...we being younger think we know everything..."

If you think I have an "attitude" now, you should have been around me then - WOW.

"It's all good."

Yes indeed. It is all good.

by mrafrohead

Probably for the same reason that the US government is considering passing that type of thing into law for the RIAA. They're getting paid.

As for MS, we probably went after them because there were too many other high profile companies whining that they couldn't compete because their products weren't as good to make such an impact in the market. And don't get me wrong here. I do NOT like MS and what they stand for, but right now, they are the leader and a lot of people don't like that. It's hard to knock number one off the top, but someone will come along and offer a product that will hands down smoke MS's. People will switch and the whole process will start all over again. Instead of whining about MS's success people should have been doing something to build a better product instead. It was a waste of energy and tax dollars all around.

mrafrohead

PS - I find it funny that the goverment went after a software vendor as a monopoly when there are other business's out that produce the same types of software. Hence it NOT being a monopoly. But now - look at our utility companies. Normally, you have one choice and that's it and they can gouge you to their hearts content.

Mrafrohead

by maxwell edison

Thank you, duck, for the kind comments and observation.

By the way, I (again) stand corrected, for I too am rich (not monetarily). You have your "riches" (your wife two great kids and a job you love) and I have mine. Thanks for the reminder.

You know, I think it’s all how a person looks at it and approaches life. Have you ever met anyone who had a genuine and burning desire to achieve something or have something, but yet fell short? Me neither.

by thechas

I don't think that this has been a waste of time.

If nothing else, it has alerted us to be alert for ANY company lobbying for the right to access PCs at will.

It also may give the RIAA pause should it decide to pursue a similar tact in the future.

Thank you for starting this interesting discussion.

Chas

by oldefar

"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." Sorry, I don't remember the source.

by generalist

While it may be a hoax, it does raise some interesting possibilities.

I can certainly see where a variation of this could be done at some level for a variety of reasons. In fact it could be a 'great' way for unscrupulous groups to wreck havoc with lots of personal computers, especially if they have 'insiders' in critical areas.

Imagine if core elements of a destructive suite of viruses were spread by P2P contacts AND hidden modules in legitimate software. The suite waits until it has evidence that it has reached critical mass and then, on a signal from a central source, it activates.

If the profile is low enough, we wouldn't know there was a problem until it was too late.

by mallardtooxx

There is truly no undertaking in life that is a waste of time save one, sleep. You should never, ever, apologize for starting a thread, no matter how obscure or unsubstantiated. If you allow yourself the luxury of self doubt in any aspect than youwill second guess yourself for life. I myself am glad you posted this, not that it will change the world or feed the hungry but it makes you take pause and think. We live in a world where people do before they think a lot of the time. This causespeople who think before they do much heartburn. I applaud you for your worry in this matter, even if it does turn out to be a hoax who cares? I once told you you are on the cusp of a great discovery, never apologize for something you believe in oryou'll always be on the cusp and never reflecting (make sense?) I for one Applaud you for your alarm, if nothing else it made me look a little deeper at the current climate of the world. to steal the venacular It's all good.
-duck

by mrafrohead

Mallard, Maxwell, Chas, Oldefar

I appreciate y'alls input.

Also, glad I didn't "waste" too much of your time;)

Mrafrohead

btw - sorry about the delay in my reply... been out sick... ;\

by maxwell edison

"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance", is often credited to Winston Churchill.

However, "The price of liberty is eternal vigilance", has been credited to Thomas Jefferson.

However (again), as quoted in Bartlett's Familiar Quotations, they are all probably paraphrasing John Philpot Curran who, in a speech upon the Right of Election in 1790 said:

"It is the common fate of the indolent to see their rights become a prey to the active. The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance; which condition if he break, servitude is at once the consequence of his crime and the punishment of his guilt."

It just goes to show you, a good idea never dies.

Thanks for prolonging its life.

If you're interested:

http://www.freedomkeys.com/vigil.htm

by dukebytes

What the RIAA is doing it wrong - in fact everything that they do in general is wrong in one way or another. BUT - if you steal - you are also wrong. Period.

If you choose to not buy CD's anymore that is your choice - but if you steal the music- you are as wrong as they are.

I have bought and paid for every bit of music I have - unless it was actually FREE/open source etc...

Don't sneak around the problem - FIX the problem! If any of mrafroheads post is true - you should be at the www.eff.org right now writing your congressmen etc... to put a stop to it before it starts.

I am going to go there today and see if I can find anything about this - if I do - I will be sending yet another letter to the man. Hopefully something will get done about it. And hopefully they are doing something about the homeland security act, and the patriot act, etc... - there are more important things going on out there than the RIAA hacking your computer.

Don't let them take you to their level. Don't fuel thier fire for them... Do it the right way - this is still our country - believe it or not.

Duke

by mrafrohead

Yeah, I was reading about this last week.

Scary stuff. I hope that Verizon stands their ground against this crap and defends their paying Customer!!!! Verizon actually is a company that has enough resource to fight this all of the way and I hope they keep their balls and don't give in. There's actually a chance here that they will stand up for us.

Mrafrohead

by mrafrohead

i had come across other stuff this weekend where they are discussing doing formats of hard drives. Making Windoze no longer boot and all kinds of nice stuff like that.

I recommend watching the disks that you purchase. If you notice it's released by a manufactuere that's a part of the RIAA - don't support it. There are plenty of companies that aren't in the RIAA, and they actually release real "music" instead of these boy/girl bands crap...

Mrafrohead

by generalist

While I don't mind organizations fighting to protect their intellectual property, they had better be sure that the people they attack are pirates. And they had better make sure that their actions fit the crime.

If the RIAA makes one little mistake and destroys an innocent person's hard drive just because that person fit a rough profile, that person could nail the RIAA's hide to the wall. If that person happens to be a lawyer or high level law enforcement officer, the nails are going to be big ones.

It is going to make for some interesting times, whatever happens.

by hal 9000

If true this would in all probability be legal in the US where it was writen and first deployed but as the internet is a world wide structure it may very well be illegial in other countries and when the RIAA started proscutions in the US they would have to admit the existance of this tool which would either require legislation change in other countries to make it legal or may even result in the RIAA being sued by interested parties from other countries in those Countries Courts and the cost would far outweigh any short term benifits that they where to gain.

Even if the RIAA was capable of getting every other country that was connected to the internet to change their Legislation it would not be retrospective so there would still be a window of oportinuty to instigate Legal actian against the RIAA.

This would surely outweigh any perceived benifits that the RIAA could hope to recoup from the US.

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