Discussion Locked

Netspeak: The New Grammar

0 helpful
34 replies
Closed to new repliesThis discussion is closed. It stays readable, but it takes no new replies.

Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that many youngsters (under 30), these days--and even many professional "techies" who post to the message boards of this site--can't spell or put together good sentences.

What has happened? Are these people simply products of government-run schools, or is this just some kind of new fad?

Instead of "you," a lot of people are simply typing "u," and failing to capitalize, when necessary. Also, "can't" and "don't" have become "cant" and "dont."

Speaking as a manager, I would NEVER hire/recommend someone who did not exercise decent grammar and writing skills. I feel that communication skills are extremely important, especially in technical areas.

Am I the only one who has a problem with this?

34 replies

by lvn

Apparently, some people feel it's okay to ignore traditional writing standards (that's presupposing they have knowledge of any to begin with) when they create e-mails, informal memos, etc. As far as I'm concerned, when you are communicating with someone, regardless of the vehicle you use, proper spelling, grammar, etc. is essential. The way you communicate, whether it's verbal or written in nature, is a reflection not only of how much you respect the audience you are communicating with but also how much you care about the message you are trying to convey. If you are sloppy, then I personally am not going to put much credence in your message.

by jamesrl

It all depends on context. In messages here, I give a little latitude. This is not Time Magazine.

I have some techs who can't spell or write well. I also have tech writers who polish any technical documentation.

I feel that communications are very important but that some roles require it more than others. Some techs don't need great grammar. Your average business analyst or project manager on the other hand must be a great communicator.

James

by tomsal

Because of the Internet being such a great tool for saving money on your communications needs to friends/family located all over the world -- I rely on it to keep in touch with friends who live (literally) 5,000 miles away. So what do I do, I use a chat program to keep in touch. My friend uses chat 10 times as much as I do, she has a click of people so we wind up talking.

The point being -- in casual conversations over a chat program its very VERY common to see abbreviated text. People want to shortened their keystrokes and communicate as fast as possible their thoughts. In casual (ie. "recreational") contexts I think it is fine and does not automatically deem someone as uneducated or as having poor writing skills.

Now in forums like this, I see more importance in exacting detail to accuracy and content meanwhile maintaining good grammar. That said, I am one of the WORSE offenders of mangling my words or making typos you'll ever see. Yet, believe it or not I've earned awards for writing from HS through College. I am fine when I take the time to apply myself.

I think this applies to most folks. They don't intentionally write poorly, online its all about SPEED. How fast can I throw this idea at you? How fast can I answer your question?

Most folks have the common sense to deem when presentation is critical. I'll care less about fumbling a few typos and more about speed when I'm posting on TR -- as long as my writing is good enough to communicate my thought/idea/position.

On the flip side, I care less about speed and more about presentation if I'm writing an article for a magazine, writing my resume, writing a term paper for school, etc.

To automatically judge someone flat out for making some errors on a forum or a chat room is ludicrous to me.

That all said, if the person writes consistently poorly time and again -- well yes, that is pretty sad.

by maxwell edison

.
Many people use these kinds of forums in a very informal manner. I would also think that many people posting a message in a discussion group or in a live-chat window think of it differently than something more formal -- a cover letter for a resume, for instance. I think speed is the primary motivator, as people can speak faster than they can type, so they try to find ways to expedite the delivery of their message. Personally speaking, in the context of many Internet applications, I'd give such practice a free-pass and I generally don't get bothered by it -- unless, of course, it becomes so incoherent that I lose all sense of what the writer may be attempting to say. But in such cases I usually just stop trying to decipher the gibberish, and I move on to other things.

In all fairness, however, I have run across quite a few people who literally have trouble typing, perhaps because of arthritis or something similar, or because of a problem with their sight, or perhaps because they are just slow or haven't developed adequate typing skills. So I usually give a person the benefit of the doubt, and I try not to judge or criticize them for it. (Besides, as soon as I point out a person's grammatical error, someone will respond by pointing out one of mine.)

However, I tend to agree that the development of good writing skills is fast becoming a lost art. People don't write letters anymore, but instead make a phone call. Fewer people read for their information gathering, opting instead to rely on television and radio. And, I must admit, that the public school system doesn't place the same emphasis on proper writing skills as they did in the days of past. All you have to do is look at the curriculum of 1940 versus 2004, and you'll see less emphasis on such things -- much less. Moreover, holding a student back for failing to grasp a subject is almost unheard of today.

A long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, the public school system actually used to teach a person how to write properly. (This is one of the many reasons why I've made the decision to send my son to a private school that places its emphasis on academic excellence.) I have a sister who used to teach in the public school system, and she was literally fired from her position as a High School English teacher because she refused to give a passing grade to several students in her class because they couldn't read or write at even an elementary level. Yes, she threw down the gauntlet to make a point, and she was ready to face the consequences. But the bottom line was that the school system continually passed students who failed to comprehend the subject at hand. She left the teaching profession for good after that dismissal.

I'm in a position where I hire people for my company, and I'm amazed at the number of unprofessional written communications that come across my desk. Whether it be a resume and cover letter or an email from a client, the number of poor examples far outweighs the number of good ones. Generally speaking, is this a good thing or a bad thing? Well, on one hand I could look at it as a sad example of too many people lacking the necessary writing skills to make a good impression (or to even get their point across). On the other hand, since I try to maintain reasonably proficient writing skills myself -- regardless of the particular medium -- it becomes obvious that I have a huge advantage over most of the people against whom I may be in competition.

So do I really care about it? Well.....................

(Just kidding, of course I care about it. But on the Internet - probably not as much.)

by gralfus

I run a website where people tend to request things of me, and when they use that kind of intentional baby talk, it really causes me to look down on them. "y dont my puter play yur disk." I want to reply "Get a life you freaking drop-out! Is your keyboard broken or are you just stupid?"

I can understand doing this if you are text-messaging, but not in an email to someone you don't even know.

by tomsal

My god, if you ever used Paltalk your head would pop! lol.

So many "kiddies" (at least they seem like kids for all I know they could be older than me)...that talk either like a gangster or like they are 4.

by montgomery gator

One of my pet peeves is when people use numbers for words that are not numeric - 2 when they mean to or too, 4 when they mean for. People who do that seem semi-literate to me. Similar to using single letters for whole words. Seeing someone type "R U meeting me 4 lunch? Or U 8 already?" makes me want to scream "You Moron!!!". Another problem is confusing words, using "their" when "there" is meant, and switching "effect" with "affect". I suffer from a boss that does this but, surprisingly, is otherwise competent and educated. However, his e-mails make him look barely literate.

Thanks for letting me vent. "C U l8tr!!" (Don't that look horrible?)

by mlandis

Most of those who have responded to this discussion learned to write in a manner that presumed there was time for composition and arrangement of the thoughts and ideas to be set forth on paper. We were taught to recognize that we would be measured by our writing. We wrote essays, we wrote papers and we wrote letters that were composed and planned over time.

The shorthand the kids use is a new type of writing, and is more similar to spoken language which is always changing. I agree that it is uncomfortable to my eye, but I find it ingenious. This is a written speech/code, and a new form of communication which evolved because a new means of communication is used.

Like sign language, I am sure it will also develop its own syntax and grammar. For chat rooms and IM I think it is appropriate.

For posting messages on boards and which are not instant - there is a blur. I would not use this speech/code where there is (presumably) time to think about the message being posted.

I doubt this type of writing will fully replace what we are accustomed to, because it is not meant for writing contracts, books, theses etc.

Much as I would not use it myself, I compare it to my daily vernacular speech:

Hi! Houyadoin'? Watcha doin'laytah?

to the speech I would use in a more formal environment:

Hello. How are you? What will you be doing later?

What would they write?

Hi! How r u doin' What r u doin' l8r?

Many of us speak one way, but write in a more formal style. I prefer seeing the formal/normal style, and in posting on boards, I give my age (and education) away.

I haven't seen much blurring in recognizing which kind of writing is appropriate to use for what purpose yet.

Maureen

by dmambo

I heard a commericial on the radio the mentioned a web site. The announcer spelled the first few letters of the site, then said "the numeral 4", proceded through a few more letters, said "the numeral 2", blah, blah "dot com". In other words, the URL used 4 and 2 for what would have been "for" and "to" in speech. It made the URL sound crazy when spoken. I hope it results in lots of lost business for them.

I should register the URL for the spoken version of the site.

by av .

I think this forum is stress relief for overstressed, overworked tech people and anything goes. If you want to use u instead of you, go ahead. That is your online personality.

by garion11

I know some of us make spelling mistakes and grammatical errors...that is an accident more often than not and it is not intended. This "lewt" speak however has mysterious origins. Whence it came from, I cannot say...but in my "YOUT" I was known to be quite into online RPG games. Everquest, Diablo, Diablo 2, Unreal Tournament just to name a few. There I found some mysterious species of humans, aged 13-19 who used such language. Some infamous words from these sub human species include "phat lewtz" (Fat Loots, yes that means treasure or money) "noob" "newb" (noobie, new person etc), "y" (why), "u" "youz" (you), "lolz" (lol, laughing out loud), "da" (the) and the list continues I am afraid.

Now I can easily add politics to this and call them the Bill Clinton generation as they have heavy influences of Eminem and Britany Spears but that would be too easy. I can assure you though that these so called humans have complete confidence that their "english" language is "KOOL" (Cool).

by roddierod

I'm mean the meaning of leet is really quite different from elite.

But, then again I was to busying 'hacking' to figure out why anyone thought this was cool in the first place...

And how the heck is 4 an A...

by techierob

The irony I see nowadays is the fact that though many professionals such as doctors; dentits and even support techs have excellent educational skills behind them; they still cannot manage to write a legible report on work that they do.
Is it just me that notices this?

I have spent upto several hours trying to decipher a server's work report to figure out exaclty happened so I could explain it to my CEO. One statement stood out from the dribble that said "DHCP BUSTED". Guess that's the explanation I'll hand on :)

What's worse is the fact that when I studied english literature in high school - my teacher's writing was so bad that half of the class dropped out due to the fact that they could not understand what was being written. I guess it does not get much more ironic than that

by mlandis

and I am old enough to remember kids getting a quick rap with a ruler for trying to use their 'natural' left hand, or for being badly graded whan they probably had dysgraphia, and the prosthetics (such as pencil grips) weren't available to them.

Penmanship is not the same thing as the kind of writing being discussed here. There is the mechanics of writing, and then there is the skill of writing.

I have worked with lawyers for most of my working life - so I am no stranger to poor penmanship; some of the lawyers were great wordsmiths and were marvels at their craft.

Maureen

by montgomery gator

Maureen, we actually found a point of agreement here. I prefer typing, because I sometimes have trouble reading even my own handwriting. I can type faster than I can write. However, I refuse to use "cute" abbreviations as discussed in other parts of this discussion when I type, except an occasional emoticon :-)

by bfilmfan

I will agree that I have seen a severe drop in writing skills in both technical and non-technical employees. When I attended elementary and high school (which my children believe was prior to the invention of paper and everyone used rocks, chisels and hammers ala Freddy Flintsone), it was expected that you would be taught to read and write in full sentences.

While I admit breaking the rule on run on sentences frequently (Knowing how to break the rule means you do know the rule), I am amazed at the poorly written architectural documentation that I see in client facilities. I believe that well over 50% of my clients hire me based upon my documentation skills first and my technical and interpersonal skills secondary.

While I was in college, I took 2 years of technical writing courses. I sent my English professor a new rose bush last year for Christmas as a thank you for preparing me so well for this career field.

by gralfus

I cringe regularly when reading many postings. The top three errors I see are:

loose vs. lose (loose means to set free or "not tied up any more", lose is related to lost. Yes, it is weird to pronounce a single O as though it were two O's)

your vs. you're (your is possessive, you're is used as a contraction of "you are")

to vs. too (to implies direction, too means excessive)

Bad spelling: "If you lean over to far, your going to loose your balance."
Good spelling: "If you lean over too far, you're going to lose your balance."

by house

I understand what you are saying. I don't claim to be a language expert, but I'm always correcting my spelling and structure.

I can't handle reading a post ful of dis kinda stuf. Once in a while, I will use a few acronyms and a bit of slang, but it is more along the lines of - MS; sec; port (brought to another os); OS; info sec (information security); etc. They are only used if their meaning is in context of my post.

I think that this is a "chat" fad that has carried over into the posts here. Younger techs probably grew up with their MSN, ICQ, Mirc, etc. Even though I'm only twenty five, these chat programs have never been a lifestyle for me. Some of my friends will answer in their "lewt-speak" and I will have to ask them what they mean.

There are too many acronyms. The only one I use is LOL (laugh out loud), but it is more common and more widely known to the general IT population.

by mlandis

would drive me crazy too, even though it is probably a better reflection of my speech pattern (grew up in Manhattan NYC- now live in northern NJ) than the way I write.

Jargon is the speech used by a profession, most jargon remains specific to the profession, some worms its way into everyday vocabulary.

Language is a tool used by all, and many fads have become used in common speech over time. It would be interesting to know what American English will not only sound like, but be written like in 100 years.

Maureen

by djwhite

I'm sure pop culture influences speech (and informal writing?): Before hip-hop (bling, bling), rap ('yo' has just entered the Oxford English Dictionary), and grunge, we had the valley-girl phenomenon, hippies (hey, man), beatniks (cool, daddio), and the Forties (Say, Mugsy's gonna squeal), probably right back to the roaring Twenties and the creation of mass media.

There's a popular way of talking now that may've come from the TV show 'Friends' that I think sounds particularly hollow-brained: "You are SO not nice!" or "That would be a good thing."

I like 'Friends' and many other shows, but repeating stock TV phrases quickly goes from clever to annoying: "Not that there's anything wrong with it.", "...and now for something completely different", "The b**tards! They killed Kenny!"

Now that I've adequately annoyed you, a final thought: Speaking of grammar, consider the generation that came of age with "all your base are belong to us".

by wordworker

You nailed it DJ - and add "There you go" to the list. Go to any drive-through restaurant and, after the person throws the bag at you through the window, you're lucky if you get "There you go." I guess saying "thank you" to customers has gone out of style.

by tomsal

Of course I suppose it can have a vary meaning throughout the world, but as a very long time gamer who has been apart of dozens upon dozens of game "clans" or "groups" (one even called it a "legion"), in the hardcore gaming community l33t is common to see and personally, I think its all silly stuff.

You'll hear (literally, because in many games people use their mics to talk in-game now) "I owned you" or "you've been pawned!".

The folks who use these phrases (and many many more) are usually the ones that type the little "l33t" code subsituting numbers for letters, and letters for implied meanings.

To me its funny, because I come from a school of thought if you are so "bad", "tough", "macho" or "good" at something....why do you speak your words in coded form to make it harder to understand by the common joe -- do I detect fear? LOL.

by thechas

I have a teenager in my house so perhaps I am a bit more "aware" of this trend.

The root is not the education system, but our evolving technological society.

Much of this is as you suggest, the result of IM and text messaging.

When you have 15 chat windows open, or are using the keypad on a cell phone, you strive to find ways to abbreviate.

I myself have installed a web form spell checker to compensate for my poor typing and spelling skills.

IE Spell for Internet Explorer,
SpellBound for Mozilla.

I have a VERY difficult time proof reading as my local paper has trained me to automatically add in a, and, the and related words in order to make a sentence make any sense at all.

If it is of any consolation, take a look at other forums and you will see much more of this "chat" speak than you see here.

Chas

by mlandis

Tom,

I am sure we agree on much more than you think we do.

In the meantime, if you don't tell, I won't tell.

I don't know which of us would get picked on more, and we don't need to find out!

Maureen (with an n)

by tkasya

not to sound like a total bag or anything but did anyone take into consideration that mabye some and this is just some people have learning disabilities?? and that not everyone in this world can spell properly? and yes i do agree that some and yet again this is just some people are getting lazy in their typing

by anarchocapitalist

I can accept that some people have learning disabilities and difficulty with spelling, but should we hire those people to hold positions where good writing skills are necessary? I don't think so.

As for the lazy typists, don't get me started on slackers!

By the way, do you have a learning disability, or are you simply lazy?

by infoaaa19

You are really serious...I am happy someone is. It comes from education or lack of...when I check a note from my niece's teacher, I usually send a note back telling her how many spelling or grammatical mistakes she made...

This discussion is closed to new replies.