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New Discussion Group - Rumour Mill

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by hockeyist

Closed to new repliesThis discussion is closed. It stays readable, but it takes no new replies.

This is a great site with a lot of useful information and helpful peers - thanks.
How about a new group for those of us who have heard something in the wind regarding new IT related technology/business news and have an urge to let people know about it or to get more information/clarification. A Group such as Rumour Mill would do nicely.
Here's a couple of rumours to get the group started
1/.I heard, on the grapevine, that the IT industry unemployment rate (11%) in Australia is double the national unemployment rate (5.5%)". I wonder if it's the same ratio in other countries.
2/. Manufacturing companies within India are looking to outsource their IT to other countries due to poor performance.

43 replies

by jaqui

that's extremely rich concidering there was someone posting to get it outsourced to idia here on tr the other day.

think I'm gonna have to bookmark this to poke fun ad the advertisiers with this one.

by oz_media

I see what you're saying, that way people would have an avenue to post these specific discussions, outside of miscellaneous.

But when you think about it, how far will it go?
As it is, I find there are too many different topic subjects here already. I just use new and My Discussions.

There are a thousand issues that crop up in Miscellaneous that could warrant a separate section as they are very popular topics.

Win vs ?
NOS comparissons
Political Discussions
Jokes and Fun Topics

the list is endless.

In your case, the topic IS IT specific, but so are many others I suppose. TR would endup looking like craiglist.org. Just a nightmare of links, they have don it before on mock-ups that are just a maze of links. Personally I HATE sites like that, too many links, just point me in the right direction with some simple NAV bar and let me surf.

by hockeyist

Point taken about messy sites...anyway...
What does it say about the state of affairs when Indian outsourcing companies win work from the U.S. then outsource their work back to the U.S. Sounds like U.S. IT will become knavvies to some rich Indian dude/s.
I Googled some and found these links...
http://www.techspot.com/vb/archive/index/t-12265.html
Here's an old one from May2004
http://us.rediff.com/money/2004/may/12bpo.htm

Here's an example of India taking advantage of cheap Chinese labour
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/business/10076407.htm?1c

by smorty71

As some of you know, we're planning to implement a new tagging system to the discussions and tq&a areas that will allow you to classify your threads in a more granular way than the current categories. Think of it as user-defined subcategories.

So in this case, you could use Miscellaneous as the category and then tag your thread with "rumor" (or "rumour").

Then users could simply search for (or click on) that tag to see all threads tagged with "rumor."

What do you all think?
sm

by oz_media

So what? Even if the company in Turkey outsourced that work BACK to Canada, I couldn't care less. I am the one who gets to live here and enjoy it, I can do something else. People in other countries often don't have that luxury. They can have my old job at a lower pay scale, then they can lose that job back to another Canadian, it's really not my concern.

I just go and do something else, 99% of the time for a lOT more money than I used to. I don't think I've ever taken a step back in pay, since I was a teenager raking in a LOT of dough anyway.

Let em have it, let us have it back, who cares I'll be keeping too busy to notice.

by hockeyist

And the point that I'm trying to make is that you will ultimately be competing for very few high paying jobs (outside of IT?) with everyone else (who are equally skilled) We will all be chasing the buck$ to pay the mortgage. What happens when there is an over supply of skilled labour and very few jobs? Wages will fall...
This is exactly what happened in Australia. The magic carpet ride into the country (work visa) was some sort of IT certification.
Our government didn't help (what government does? Ours is pretty useless and fairly arrogant)they continued to flood the country with minimal-skilled IT people who work for peanuts (dodgy work was performed of course...I know of plenty of examples). I (and every other contractor/employee I knew) asked many a recruiter why we didn't get the job applied for and it always came back to rates (rate not cheap enough...take a pay cut and you'll get plenty of jobs). We had skilled MCSE's and CNE's working for AUD$18/hr (that's USD$14) when previously it was paying AUD$45/hr to AUD$60/hr.
It wasn't uncommon for highly skilled IT people to be out of work for a year until they realised why...work for peanuts of course. Most of us sold our houses and went back to work for peanuts. Peanuts pay the bills anyway. There is not much outside of IT that pays what we are used to receiving for our efforts. Now it may be argued that IT Professionals are paid too much. I can counteract that argument quickly by saying what other profession consumes a very large amount of personal time to keep at a "professional" standard? The pay should reflect the effort.
Anyway, IT is picking up and visas are running out, IT will eventually be a viable profession again. That's my rant on the subject.

by amcol

And ignoring Economics 101 in the process.

First, to one of your original questions...I have no idea what the relative unemployment rates are in Australia, but here in the US the IT unemployment rate is about the same as that for the general working public. There are at least a half dozen sources, both in and outside the industry, to corroborate that.

You're complaining that lower priced workers doing the same work get the jobs before the higher priced workers. Wow, what a surprise. What are companies supposed to do...employ you at the expense of their own bottom lines?

To your comment about dodgy work by the lower priced resources, I personally have no argument on that having seen the same thing myself. But quality is in the eye of the beholder. As IT professionals you and I can judge the quality of the work at a low level of detail. You can't expect that anyone else, even the person responsible for paying the bills, can apply the same rigorous analysis to that assessment. When you drive your car, unless you're a qualified mechanic you can judge whether or not the car is a good ride but do you really have any idea if one particular component is working right?

You've missed Oz Media's point entirely. You're competing against lower priced workers doing the same job, so you sold your house in order to keep competing. YOU MADE A WRONG DECISION. You've decided to limit yourself to just what you know, just what you do, just what you're comfortable with. Why not move up, out, sideways, any which way? You're treading water and you're complaining about drowning.

Your argument that we'll all be competing for fewer and fewer high paying jobs is preposterous. It assumes that the future is the same as the present. When I started in this industry, in the late 60's, literally NOTHING that exists today existed back then. The opportunities available to me, and you, and everyone else, today as opposed to yesterday are limited only by your own imagination.

I'm not holding myself up as an example of what to do or not do, but just for the sake of information...in a career spanning more than 35 years I've worked for six companies and had about two dozen different jobs. And I do mean DIFFERENT. Always in IT, but always something new and exciting with learning and growth potential. I've been promoted, I've been laid off, I've gotten awards and accolades, I've been fired, I've been published, I've been shunted aside. That's life...you pick yourself up, you dust yourself off, you find a new gig and join a new band. Dance to the music that's playing, and if they're not playing your song learn a new dance.

Step out of your comfort zone. You'll drown.

by oz_media

IN fact I did see your point the first time. These forums have been FUL of people complaining that they can't find work, that they have recently graduacted inIT and there's nobody handin them the work they 'deserve' etc.

Being someonewho has built a life OUSIDE of IT for so many years, I have no issues with IT jobs losing their pat scale, being competetive etc.

In fact I have often said that once IT becomes JUST ANOTHER job, which is inevitable with the amount of people literally growing up in the IT field, most positions will be just low hourly wage positions like warehousing, fast food joints etc.

A skill is only a SKILL when others find it unique, when I look at my 18 year old neice and 12 year old nephew who just FLY through compter technology it is a reminder of a changing world where EVERYONE will know what I know now by the time they hit grade 10. I suppose what I ma saying, is IT is rapidly becoming a run of the mill skill that most kids are learning in high school, even elementary schools teah basic computing skills. We didn't have 'PONG' class when I was in school, LOL.

I am a licenced mechanic, air care and alternate fuel cetified, an experienced sales manager and market developer. So IT has been a NEW field for me over the last 7 or 8 years.

I am not worried if IT hits the level of a MacDonalds job next week, I will just do something else. It's just the way I was raised in England. Everyone there is a skilled and hardworking tradesman it seems, these skills are always in demand as not everyone is cut out for it nor is willing or able to do it.

So while I do enjoy the easy life of fixing computers, managing networks or planning overhauls of existing networks, I just look at is as a bit of experience and not something I intend to do forever. I get too bored of any specific line of work to continue with it as a life focus.

So as I said, I cocmpletely see your point, and yes you do have a valid complaint, yet I do not choose to dwell on such issue as I have never planned iT as a career, just fell into it.

Best of luck with your future endeavors, I am sure the industry will be ever changig and will see itself through many more hurdles yet.

by pmpsicle

Aka unstated assumptions (or in this case perhaps a better word would be unshared)... would still be presumptions since they miss 1/2 of the definition (must be stated).

This situation is also known as "Man it's cold back there -- and why is it so wet?"

Sorry for the delay -- I actually was working :< (or maybe that should be :> since I'm getting paid for a change)

Glen Ford

by oz_media

Whe you mentioned it before I think I saw a different animal.

But would tagging be limited to a preset list of 'subtopics'/tags? If so, how will it not turn into a mixed up batch any different than just reading titles to see what may interest you?

Would I KNOW to search for RUMOUR when it is created by the user? Or will there be a set of predefined tags so that I can browse subtopics and pick those that interest me?

What if I tagged a post as XYZ? How wil people know to search for XYZ?

Probably a dumb question, and perhaps I should just wait for a mock up to see what you mean. Maybe I am just being thick and can't see the obvious that you are trying to describe, sorry, it's just a new concept and I can't really see how it fits or helps.

by house

...into the [i]enforced[/i] search idea. Sneaky. (not that I thought it was a bad idea in the first place) :)

The use of tags would promote the 'keyword' based search that I had mentioned a while back.

by smorty71

Oz:
The tagging would be totally freeform. The idea is that it is another way to categorize things.

For example, there may be a ton of threads started every day that have something to do with Windows XP; however, some are in Windows, some may be in Security and some may be in General Technology. There is no easy way to get those items quickly and easily.

Tagging allows you to be able to pull all of these discussions together (by clicking on or subscribing to a tag).

As for the question of placement, tags will be displayed underneath the thread title just about everywhere the thread title is displayed. So at the top of each discussion post page (where you currently see the thread title), you would see the tags associated with that thread. Clicking on that tag would show you all threads that share that tag.

As for searching, I would like to have a simple page that allowed someone to search for a tag (or maybe it is just another function of the existing search box).

To see a really good example of tags in action, check out http://del.icio.us. Note the list of items on the left. Each has tags under the title and description that are clickable. Also, check out the list of popular tags on the right.

Of course, our implementation will be much different; however, it shows how the basic tag concept can work.

Let me know if you have more questions,
sm

by oz_media

Will the user have to MAKE UP a tag or will it be from a predefined LIST of tags?

Example:
I could write an article about an issue that PO'd me on a client PC.
I could CHOOSE to tag it as 'WinXP' or 'Dorky Client' unless the tags were predefined.

Obviously WinXP would be more appropriate and who the heck is going to search for Dorky Client.

So I was thinking that IF it was truly freeform, there would just be a mess of tags nobody could find. You would end up just wading through discussions again.

by oz_media

Okay from your post I am gonna say you are Autralian, and yes Sydeny is in Australia, but you profile shows Sydney, NS.

I went to Colby School when we first moved to Canada, my dad worked for CabotCraft. And you play hockey so I am beginning to think you are one of those Maritimers I am always bragging about.

I LOVED NS, despite the snow, but I was quite a bit younger so snow was still fun.

LAUGH: You should see what they consider lobster out here in BC, wouldn't even pass as bait in NS. :)

Get this, there is a fine dining restaurant in Vancouver where you can buy 1/2lb NS lobsters. $75 per TAIL!!! FOR A HALF POUND!?!

I ALMOST took a job in Halifax a few months ago but the employer didn't come through with what I had asked so I passed. Certainly miss the east and it's nice to see someone from NS posting here!

NOO DOOOT ABOOOT IT, YOU'S GUYS ROCK! :D

by hereinoz

I think he meant Sydney NSW oz, but perhaps missed out on the "W".

That is the way Sydneysiders are - they never finish anything :-)

Cheers,

Alan

by hockeyist

Let me guess, you must be either a Melbournite or Brisbanite...
Looks like the state field isn't setup for state tla's. To avoid the confusion (or to add more) I have added NSW to the City Field (so now it looks like this Location: Sydney, NSW, NS).
Hopefully it will be fixed soon.

by hockeyist

The TR system dropped the W. I don't know why. I have reset to another city in NSW but TR always drops the W. I have updated my profile with my website to counteract this problem. I used to play defense for the Sydney Icemen (I weigh 100KG, built like a brick and was strategically placed in the more intelligant position in the game), now I play drop-in whenever I can. I'm still looking for a good team to join.
All of my hockey experience has been in Australia. I had plans to visit the home of hockey but got distracted by IT in my youth (spent all my money on pc gear, back then 16K of ram cost a months pay). A good percentage of our teams are made up of expat Canadians, Americans and Northern Europeans. We play Canadians when they are out here visiting (sometimes they let us win).
I have toured part of Canada although not as much as I'd like to.
Those lobsters must taste nice to pay that much for them.

by oz_media

I thought MAYBE it's NSW but then there IS a Sydney, NS. So I gave you the benfit of the doubt.

Oh well, not such a small world after all. :)

Mind if we just call you Bruce then, to avoid any further confusion? ;)

by hockeyist

Sounds like these Atlantic Canadians are held in high esteem in Canada.

Talking about Bruce...
...You know, I have never met a Bruce in my entire life...I suppose it's like certain brands of software, you know it's being used out there, but by who.

by oz_media

As for Atlantic Canadians, Newfies (Newfoundlanders) are the brunt of all the typical racist jokes, kust like polak jokes. As people, they are some of the warmest and most accepting people I have ever met.

Maritimers are always joked about being backward or a little behind the rest, but as for attitude and community, I have yet to see them topped anywhere.

I have VERY fond memories of the great people I met on the East Coast and couldn't say a bad word if I tried.

As for Bruce, well you know how that goes. Everyone in England sips tea with a pinky pointing up. All Canadians love hockey and say 'EH' all the time. All Americans live in trailers and are classless. All Chinese people are called Wong. Just another generalization that is the brunt of all jokes.

by Jay Garmon

There are two ways to tackle the "random tagging" problem.

One, we build an open thesaurus that can be taught that "Windows XP", "WinXP", "Win XP", and "XP" are all the same thing. We'd make this open to members (or at least high-ranking members), so you'd get everything you were asking for. The "Dorky client" tag would exist, but I doubt many people would use it, and it likely wouldn't map to any larger topics.

The second option would be a Most Popular Tags list, that you could select from. Odds are, Windows XP will be near the top, but Dorky Client won't. You don't have to select or subscribe from this list, but it will be easier, and should mitigate the signal to noise ratio.

by oz_media

The popular tag would be an incentive to have your discussion found by selecting a more popular tag over an obscure one.

Okay, make it so number one, you have my blessing! :D

I know that really is what you wanted right? LOL !

(that's why C-Net Employs you and not me, well that and a whole host of reasons, such as; only Green M&M's on my desk, women can't wear pants [or skirts] in the office, undergarments must be exciting, etc.)

Yeah okay I get the picture, I'll never get a job with CNet.

Thanks for the detailed explanation, Jay.

by kenfromcville

I agree that we in the IT industry must be able to adapt to survive. However, I do not feel that IT management places the necessary value on experience. If you ran an auto repair shop would you hire all first-year mechanics because they are cheaper? Ignorance is no excuse for management. The idea that anyone with an eye for the bottom line can manage at any level of any industry seems to be the prevalent belief. This is why we are trading cost for quality.

by afhavemann9

I have to go along with this. I?m 61 and I?ve been around the block with jobs. Had I limited myself to any one profession, I?d be broke by now. I mean, look? here?s a list of just the major jobs I?ve had in the last 40+ years:

Tractor Trailer Driver ? 15 years
Airline pilot ? freight
Helicopter pilot - charter
Professional photographer
Programmer
Project manager
Data processing manager
Data Center manager
Computer Forensics expert
Contract Expert Witness ? Computer Forensics (Current)
Systems Administrator (Current)

And I?ve had plenty of other jobs, little and big. Sometimes I still go and drive a dump truck for a couple of weeks, take a load cross country just for a change, or maybe go out and run a snow plow all night and pick up an extra grand.

I have to tell you, I?m not even necessarily a fan of a college degree!. I didn?t graduate high school, never went to college yet I hold just about ever cert, MS Novell, Linux, etc. Maybe it helps, but since I never went to college, I was never locked in to one career so I never had a career to lose.

That?s just the way it is, you lose one, you put your head down, see where the money is and plow ahead. There will never be a time when I can?t find a way to earn a good living. I just can?t go along with whining about pay, get out there and try something new, find a way, don?t just sit on a single profession and hope for the best, make the best happen.

Al

by esdaniel

I agree entirely with the above post but had wanted to comment on another comment below, max leveling reached excuse me replying here...

"However, I do not feel that IT management places the necessary value on experience"

Aha! So how much experience will a .NET programmer have considering it only just arrived?

How much experience will a CIO of ESB architecture have if the concept originated out of market needs around 2001?

Experience is valuable in that you're only as good as your last deal these days. The last deal should demonstrate what you know, what you found, and how you made it profitable and of bottom-line value.

For example my metric is Return on Intelligence, that goal post moves every second.

This is the most aggressive industry in the world, it is the most disruptive and for me - the most fascinating.

by the admiral

It is not a rumor. One news story stated that people who are attempting to go to Universities in Austrialia for Information Systems are being told that the programs are closed, and that others are available. This came out about a year ago.

Second, our outsource partner in India has outsourced to China, which is a growing trend since now they can no longer outsource in India cheaply (in other words, it ain't cheap no more there) so they are sending it to China.

Sooner or Later, America will be the cheapest provider of the services, so they will outsource it back to the US.

by hockeyist

...that they have accepted a very high percentage of full-fee paying students from overseas (predominately Asia) at the expense of local students who can't pay upfront. "Full-fee" is not really "full-fee", it's subsidized by the taxpayer.
In Australia we have a system where we can enrol in any undergraduate or postgraduate course and defer payment until we can afford to pay. Payment is made voluntarily or once a salary threshhold is past then 1% of salary is submitted with tax weekly or at the end of the year. So a complete degree or MBA programme can be completed and then repaid once employment commences.
The problem is shortsighted management of bottom line again.
Once the full-fee students return back to Asia we lose that training to overseas companies. All at the expense of our local citizens and local industry.

by the admiral

The problem in the US is that grants and scholarships set aside for minorities are being won by people who are here, then taking the skills back to their perspective countries.

See the 9/11/2001 footage, and you see a long strain of engineers and other skills that were done here, then moved overseas.

So now, we have all the educational monies going into persons who will not assist the economy, and we don't even flash an eyeball as to why things are outsourced. The people who went and got educated took it. There is no other way of looking at the problem.

Now we have executives buying into that crap.

by a.techno.geek

Most of the students going to school (I can only speak for the 2 year Community Colleges, I work at one) are foreigners, which if they are D.P. (Displaced People/Persons) get a free ride for school. In this case it is middle east peoples (I live in the Detroit Michigan Metro area, which has the highest percentage of anywhere in the U.S. of middle east people, now I guess it is the chinese) But the tax paying public has to pay for the same schooling out of their pockets. Now do you think that is fair? The quality for elementary, middle and high school has went way down. One of the bad things is that they don't teach critical thinking anymore. They no longer teach the 3 R's, read'in, writ'in and rithmetic same basic course of study through out the students schooling, now it is whatever feels good. Does our Representatives and Senate care, nope just the bottom line for companies. For me to get a work visa for Canada, a company would have to search all of Canada for a Canadian that can do the job, then and only then I might be able to work in Canada. Does the same thing apply here in the U.S. when it comes to Canadians (Windsor Ontario is our neighbor to the south of Detroit) working in the U.S.? Nope. Instead of the government making companies hiring taxpayers first, no just go a head and hire a non-taxpaying HB-1 visa holders, they are cheaper. When people here can no longer afford to buy what the companies are selling here (in the U.S, may be they will wake up and realize that people here have to work to buy). what happens then? I like the example of the doctor being laid off/fired and told that they are now outsourcing his job to India, Russia, china, where ever, were diagnosis is cheaper. And now surgical nurse's will preform surgery because they know the technique of surgery. How does that grab ya? People invest money into their education to get higher paying work, not to work for peanuts. If they do that, they might just as well have not finished their high schooling because, what the hell why do that, ya ain't gonna get anywhere anyways. Sad thing is that education has gotten so watered down, that to do what you used to be able to do with a High School diploma, now requires an Associates Degree, what required an Associates Degree, now requires a Bachelors Degree, What required a Bachelors now requires a Masters Degree, what required a Masters now requires a Doctorate Degree, where does it end? I agree with Slapshots peeve.

by hockeyist

...and we all know what happens when you assume.
I started out not in IT but as a welder. Here's my career for those of you who assume (by the way, hidden assumptions kill projects but that's another topic).
We'll ignore the hard work I did to from age 10 to 16 to help support my mother and little brother, we'll pick it up when I am 16.
McDonalds Restaurant Worker
Welder
Car Courier
Motor Spare Parts Warehouse Manager
Motorcycle Courier
Computer Engineer (board level repairs, not your board jockeys)
LAN/WAN support up to present day (check out my profile for additional info.
Intersperse the above with commitment to IT related study and a stint at commercial pilot training and you have my career history.
Anyway...I don't sit on my ar5e and just rollover and accept what life throws at me, I fight for what I believe in. The difference between myself and some others is that I like IT and everything about it including the "intelligent" people it attracts. I don't want to work outside my chosen profession. Tell a doctor that he is to find another job like truck driving because management found some cheap offshore labour.
Your Economics 101 comment is referring to what...?? It doesn't make economic sense for companies to shoot themselves in the foot for short term gain at the bottom line. In fact they will be losing competitive advantage by getting rid of valuable experience, which, in the end, will be at the "expense of their own bottom lines". The point that you are missing is that companies are replacing experienced workers with inexperienced workers. Let's replace all of the doctors in your hospital with first year students, it amounts to the same thing; Cheap labour, very good bottom line in the short term (by short we are talking two to three months)... I don't know if you have worked with VAR's but in my experience recently (the past five years) the cowboy "managers" are only interested in cheap labour with certs so that they can maintain their "Partner Level". I have seen so many dodgy "Solution Architect" designed "Solutions" out there.
My selling the house was the RIGHT decision (here you go assuming again). It gave me funds to spend ten grand on current Cisco training courses. The current WAN knowledge allowed me to go for an IT Management position (hands on). Also, I lived 100Kms North of Sydney. I had to get closer to the work, I made a decision to stay in IT because I love it, not because it's another job that I can choose to leave and come back when the pickings are good. I have had to move into management to stay in IT because of the "opportunistic" attitude to cheap labour. I have interviewed a lot of this "cheap labour" and was not at all impressed with them. For one particular role I interviewed twenty people and I had to reject all of them because of lack of knowledge, experience, and common sense (that's IT sense I'm refering to). Their CV's spoke very highly of them as most advertisements do. It's amazing how many people didn't know what pathping was or what any of the reserved ip address ranges were.
You are correct when you stated that I assume that the future will be the same as the present...wait five seconds...there, point proven, nothing much has changed. What you are assuming is that everything will be "hunky-dory" in the future and everyone who abandoned IT for other pursuits without a fight can come strolling back to assume their normal positions (head down, butt in the air, ready for another hiding). Once you leave IT (like any profession that requires regular upgrading of skills) it is very hard to pick up where you left off, skillwise. I have decided to move into executive management and am completing a MBusIT. I don't have a uni degree and am finding the course extremely challenging. I will be on the board of some company in the near future and IT representation will be the better for it.
Add the stress of losing a wife to cancer in amongst all the Bu115h1t that started in IT five years ago and it's a wonder that I am still sane and working at all. A nice hippy commune on the North Cost looked very tempting to me on several occasions.
And no, I don't want to learn a new dance, I've just chosen a new song.

by pmpsicle

The problem is that people tend to believe the marketing hype. (The term used to be Management by FAD -- now they just call it management).

What's old is new again. Many of the modern "IT WONDERS" are old techniques trotted out again. BI - did that back in '80. In fact, had a heck of a time convincing programmers it wasn't the best design technique for all uses.

Most of the new tools are 1) solving old problems on new equipment and 2) rediscovery of old tools. To stick with the BI example, operational databases and integration are just the result of an architecture that embraced what we called legacy architecture 25 years ago (i.e 60's design techniques). No big deal. Figured that out in the mid-70's ...

.Net, JAVA, J2EE, JSP, PHP are just one more tool ... after the 10th language/tool/development platform one more just isn't a big deal. A couple weeks and an experienced senior can be as good or better than any new programmer. Yes, it'll still take 2 years to become an "expert" in that language but how many inexperienced "experts" are there ? And an experienced senior will get there faster.

That's the advantage of being experienced - the knowledge to draw comparisons/parallels and learn from them.

I'm trying to finish a project right now ... my client was badmouthed for hiring me when I didn't know the desired package ... it took me all of 2 hours to learn it. I've been badmouthed because I didn't ask any questions (except where the programmers' English was so bad that I didn't know what the ***l they were trying to say). Reason - it took me all of 1/2 hour to learn the package. Meanwhile the programmers took 10 times the original schedule to finish (they tried to do it using XP without having lived through pre-Waterfall -- silly sods).

That's the advantage of experience ... shorter learning times and a critical eye for spotting weaknesses and therefore avoiding the fallout.

And by the way I've been in three industries (IS/Accounting/Construction) and have worked for nine companies directly and ten indirectly in sixteen different industries. Changing jobs doesn't bother me.

The thing is I like IS (not IT - IS), and don't really want to leave. I like helping people to do their job better. I like helping them make the "brain-dead" part of their job easier. I don't want to leave a profession I'm good at and enjoy. Improve on, add to - yes; leave - no.

But by focusing on cost, the latest fad, and believing in the inability to teach old dogs new tricks (bow wow??? I thought I was a cat person), the industry is forcing people like me out.

My rant for the day ... back to my documentation writing.

Glen Ford, PMP
Can Da Software
IS Project Management
Business Systems & Process Improvement

by pmpsicle

I really hate doing this but you hit a hot button so ...

I once had a boss who's favourite saying was that assume makes an a** of u and me.

Problem is that the only thing that can do that is not knowing the difference between assume and presume ...

Assumptions have NEVER killed a project ... presumptions have killed projects, and not-assumptions have killed projects. Assumptions have only ever killed projects when someone reads the proof and realizes it contradicts one of the assumptions and therefore kills the project on the planning board.

Huh???

To be an assumption requires two things 1) the statement must be previously proven and 2) must be stated. If either of those conditions are missing then what you have is a presumption. (By definition only presumptions can be false - what I called a not-assumption).

Sorry but as I said, hot-button.:P

Okay, the language police are going back to work (really this time). If this had been a real English lesson you would have been told ...

Glen Ford

by hockeyist

From my understanding, when I refer to "hidden" assumptions, what I am refering to is the following.
A project meeting.
Several parties (who each have their frame of reference)
Within each party discussions have taken place and each party knows and assumes what has to be done, but do not communicate their assumptions to the other parties thereby creating a situation where you have these hidden assumptions. Statements are proven and stated within each party but not included in the contract for the other parties to view. A project will kick off and grind to a screaming halt when the first problem is encountered.
Now, pick that apart please...

by oz_media

[b]KEN[/b]Well YES most automitive shops DO hire new JOURNEYMEN, not 1st year apprentices unles sthay are looking fo rgovernment supported labout. 1st year mechanice BY law are not allowed to perform SOME duties that a journeyman can due to safety regulations. But a company will very often hire a new journeyman (4th year grad) over a journeyman with 10 years experience due to cost.

[b]afhavemann[/b] Well done, that exactly what I mean! My dad was a multi skilled tradesman, having one occupation choice is NOT an option if you are his son. Will you actually hang up your gloves in a few years? I seem to think someone like you will always need to work and owuld get very little enjoyment out of retirement. I was just talking to my mum, she's 64 now and is getting REALLY bored of retirement, just 5 months after saying how it was fantastic to no longer work. But I do agree their is a difference between HAVING to work and WANTING to work, the latter will kill me eventually I'm sure.

by hockeyist

...If you and I worked for one client and stated a set of assumptions but didn't communicate them to the other party, would they not be assumptions in our frame of reference? Maybe I should call them "our assumptions that are hidden from the other party?"

by david_heath

Rob,

I'm interested in finding where you saw the 11% unemployment rate in IT. I googled frantically but coundn't find a connection.

I too am in Sydney and am part of the 11% !!

by hockeyist

Hi David,
IT in Sydney really suffered in the last 5 years. I didn't think it was as bad as I thought until I saw the figures. I caught up with IT people I hadn't seen in years and it wasn't unusual for them to have been out of work for 12 months (around 2001-2002). The U.S. economy is much larger and may take a while to show the same affects.
I found the information on the Unions NSW site. Here's an extract followed by the link.

10. From The Association of Professional Engineers, Scientists and Managers, Australia (NSW Branch): - advising Labor Council of the welcomed news that the Department of Immigration, Multicultural and Indigenous Affairs (DIMIA) had prohibited recruitment agents from placing temporary visa holders in employment contracts from 1st November 2003. The Union said DIMIA had given recruitment agents 90 days from 1st November 2003 to comply with the new visa regulations. The Union said enforcement of regulations concerning temporary visa holders would mean that recruiters would be forced to turn to Australian labour, a positive thing for Australian IT workers who were having difficulty finding work. The Union said a survey of IT professionals in early 2003 by the Australian Computer Society found an unemployment rate of 11.0 per cent, almost double the national unemployment rate. The Union said the enforcement of the regulations would mean an increase of 2000 more jobs for Australian IT workers from February 2004. Further, the Union said the enforcement of the regulations would also ensure that the abuses of temporary visas by recruitment agents, who pay these temporary visa holders sub-standard wages, would no longer occur. The Union said the IT Contractors and Recruiters Association were seeking a meeting with DIMIA to have its decision reversed. The Union requested Labor Council seek a meeting with DIMIA to convey support of its current position.
http://council.labor.net.au/minutes/9220031127.html

Also some info in the 8th paragraph here.
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/04/19/1082326135400.html?oneclick=true

This is an interesting read.
US tech workers help companies export their jobs
"Tata employees received $US12,000" annual salary- Working for peanuts...
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/02/06/1075854051433.html?from=storyrhs&oneclick=true

by david_heath

Rob,

thanks for the links. I'm trying to collect evidence of just how bad things are in Australia for IT - show yet more evidence that we're still the lucky country, not the clever country.

by hockeyist

...that uni places are being filled with full fee paying students from overseas, particularly Asia, at the expense of Australian residents (HECS and PELS students). Once their student visa runs out they take the knowledge back to their country and sell it back to us via our imports etc...

by david_heath

like I keep telling everyone - we're still the lucky country, not the clever country... and our luck's about to run out!

what will we have left??

by oz_media

And if that's not good enough for you, go cuddle a bunny you heartless bastard. LOL

Sorry, I just COULDN'T resist. :D

But I'd still move to Autralia in a heartbeat if the opportunity arose, England's Home, Canada's a giant playground, but Australia...that's the party that doesn't end...and the women can party really hard too! What a fun bunch you all are!

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