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New Discussion Group - Rumour Mill

By Hockeyist ·
This is a great site with a lot of useful information and helpful peers - thanks.
How about a new group for those of us who have heard something in the wind regarding new IT related technology/business news and have an urge to let people know about it or to get more information/clarification. A Group such as Rumour Mill would do nicely.
Here's a couple of rumours to get the group started
1/.I heard, on the grapevine, that the IT industry unemployment rate (11%) in Australia is double the national unemployment rate (5.5%)". I wonder if it's the same ratio in other countries.
2/. Manufacturing companies within India are looking to outsource their IT to other countries due to poor performance.

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oh my

by Jaqui In reply to New Discussion Group - Ru ...

that's extremely rich concidering there was someone posting to get it outsourced to idia here on tr the other day.

think I'm gonna have to bookmark this to poke fun ad the advertisiers with this one.

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Those are usually miscellaneous

by Oz_Media In reply to oh my

I see what you're saying, that way people would have an avenue to post these specific discussions, outside of miscellaneous.

But when you think about it, how far will it go?
As it is, I find there are too many different topic subjects here already. I just use new and My Discussions.

There are a thousand issues that crop up in Miscellaneous that could warrant a separate section as they are very popular topics.

Win vs ?
NOS comparissons
Political Discussions
Jokes and Fun Topics

the list is endless.

In your case, the topic IS IT specific, but so are many others I suppose. TR would endup looking like Just a nightmare of links, they have don it before on mock-ups that are just a maze of links. Personally I HATE sites like that, too many links, just point me in the right direction with some simple NAV bar and let me surf.

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U.S. outsources IT to India outsources IT to U.S.?!?!

by Hockeyist In reply to Those are usually miscell ...

Point taken about messy sites...anyway...
What does it say about the state of affairs when Indian outsourcing companies win work from the U.S. then outsource their work back to the U.S. Sounds like U.S. IT will become knavvies to some rich Indian dude/s.
I Googled some and found these links...
Here's an old one from May2004

Here's an example of India taking advantage of cheap Chinese labour

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My client outsourced to Turkey

by Oz_Media In reply to U.S. outsources IT to Ind ...

So what? Even if the company in Turkey outsourced that work BACK to Canada, I couldn't care less. I am the one who gets to live here and enjoy it, I can do something else. People in other countries often don't have that luxury. They can have my old job at a lower pay scale, then they can lose that job back to another Canadian, it's really not my concern.

I just go and do something else, 99% of the time for a lOT more money than I used to. I don't think I've ever taken a step back in pay, since I was a teenager raking in a LOT of dough anyway.

Let em have it, let us have it back, who cares I'll be keeping too busy to notice.

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Lets work for peanuts.

by Hockeyist In reply to My client outsourced to T ...

And the point that I'm trying to make is that you will ultimately be competing for very few high paying jobs (outside of IT?) with everyone else (who are equally skilled) We will all be chasing the buck$ to pay the mortgage. What happens when there is an over supply of skilled labour and very few jobs? Wages will fall...
This is exactly what happened in Australia. The magic carpet ride into the country (work visa) was some sort of IT certification.
Our government didn't help (what government does? Ours is pretty useless and fairly arrogant)they continued to flood the country with minimal-skilled IT people who work for peanuts (dodgy work was performed of course...I know of plenty of examples). I (and every other contractor/employee I knew) asked many a recruiter why we didn't get the job applied for and it always came back to rates (rate not cheap enough...take a pay cut and you'll get plenty of jobs). We had skilled MCSE's and CNE's working for AUD$18/hr (that's USD$14) when previously it was paying AUD$45/hr to AUD$60/hr.
It wasn't uncommon for highly skilled IT people to be out of work for a year until they realised for peanuts of course. Most of us sold our houses and went back to work for peanuts. Peanuts pay the bills anyway. There is not much outside of IT that pays what we are used to receiving for our efforts. Now it may be argued that IT Professionals are paid too much. I can counteract that argument quickly by saying what other profession consumes a very large amount of personal time to keep at a "professional" standard? The pay should reflect the effort.
Anyway, IT is picking up and visas are running out, IT will eventually be a viable profession again. That's my rant on the subject.

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You're missing the point

by amcol In reply to Lets work for peanuts.

And ignoring Economics 101 in the process.

First, to one of your original questions...I have no idea what the relative unemployment rates are in Australia, but here in the US the IT unemployment rate is about the same as that for the general working public. There are at least a half dozen sources, both in and outside the industry, to corroborate that.

You're complaining that lower priced workers doing the same work get the jobs before the higher priced workers. Wow, what a surprise. What are companies supposed to do...employ you at the expense of their own bottom lines?

To your comment about dodgy work by the lower priced resources, I personally have no argument on that having seen the same thing myself. But quality is in the eye of the beholder. As IT professionals you and I can judge the quality of the work at a low level of detail. You can't expect that anyone else, even the person responsible for paying the bills, can apply the same rigorous analysis to that assessment. When you drive your car, unless you're a qualified mechanic you can judge whether or not the car is a good ride but do you really have any idea if one particular component is working right?

You've missed Oz Media's point entirely. You're competing against lower priced workers doing the same job, so you sold your house in order to keep competing. YOU MADE A WRONG DECISION. You've decided to limit yourself to just what you know, just what you do, just what you're comfortable with. Why not move up, out, sideways, any which way? You're treading water and you're complaining about drowning.

Your argument that we'll all be competing for fewer and fewer high paying jobs is preposterous. It assumes that the future is the same as the present. When I started in this industry, in the late 60's, literally NOTHING that exists today existed back then. The opportunities available to me, and you, and everyone else, today as opposed to yesterday are limited only by your own imagination.

I'm not holding myself up as an example of what to do or not do, but just for the sake of a career spanning more than 35 years I've worked for six companies and had about two dozen different jobs. And I do mean DIFFERENT. Always in IT, but always something new and exciting with learning and growth potential. I've been promoted, I've been laid off, I've gotten awards and accolades, I've been fired, I've been published, I've been shunted aside. That's pick yourself up, you dust yourself off, you find a new gig and join a new band. Dance to the music that's playing, and if they're not playing your song learn a new dance.

Step out of your comfort zone. You'll drown.

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Whatever Happened to the Value of Experience

by KenFromCville In reply to You're missing the point

I agree that we in the IT industry must be able to adapt to survive. However, I do not feel that IT management places the necessary value on experience. If you ran an auto repair shop would you hire all first-year mechanics because they are cheaper? Ignorance is no excuse for management. The idea that anyone with an eye for the bottom line can manage at any level of any industry seems to be the prevalent belief. This is why we are trading cost for quality.

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I have to agree...

by afhavemann In reply to You're missing the point

I have to go along with this. I?m 61 and I?ve been around the block with jobs. Had I limited myself to any one profession, I?d be broke by now. I mean, look? here?s a list of just the major jobs I?ve had in the last 40+ years:

Tractor Trailer Driver ? 15 years
Airline pilot ? freight
Helicopter pilot - charter
Professional photographer
Project manager
Data processing manager
Data Center manager
Computer Forensics expert
Contract Expert Witness ? Computer Forensics (Current)
Systems Administrator (Current)

And I?ve had plenty of other jobs, little and big. Sometimes I still go and drive a dump truck for a couple of weeks, take a load cross country just for a change, or maybe go out and run a snow plow all night and pick up an extra grand.

I have to tell you, I?m not even necessarily a fan of a college degree!. I didn?t graduate high school, never went to college yet I hold just about ever cert, MS Novell, Linux, etc. Maybe it helps, but since I never went to college, I was never locked in to one career so I never had a career to lose.

That?s just the way it is, you lose one, you put your head down, see where the money is and plow ahead. There will never be a time when I can?t find a way to earn a good living. I just can?t go along with whining about pay, get out there and try something new, find a way, don?t just sit on a single profession and hope for the best, make the best happen.


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by esdaniel In reply to You're missing the point

I agree entirely with the above post but had wanted to comment on another comment below, max leveling reached excuse me replying here...

"However, I do not feel that IT management places the necessary value on experience"

Aha! So how much experience will a .NET programmer have considering it only just arrived?

How much experience will a CIO of ESB architecture have if the concept originated out of market needs around 2001?

Experience is valuable in that you're only as good as your last deal these days. The last deal should demonstrate what you know, what you found, and how you made it profitable and of bottom-line value.

For example my metric is Return on Intelligence, that goal post moves every second.

This is the most aggressive industry in the world, it is the most disruptive and for me - the most fascinating.

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You are assuming too much...

by Hockeyist In reply to You're missing the point

...and we all know what happens when you assume.
I started out not in IT but as a welder. Here's my career for those of you who assume (by the way, hidden assumptions kill projects but that's another topic).
We'll ignore the hard work I did to from age 10 to 16 to help support my mother and little brother, we'll pick it up when I am 16.
McDonalds Restaurant Worker
Car Courier
Motor Spare Parts Warehouse Manager
Motorcycle Courier
Computer Engineer (board level repairs, not your board jockeys)
LAN/WAN support up to present day (check out my profile for additional info.
Intersperse the above with commitment to IT related study and a stint at commercial pilot training and you have my career history.
Anyway...I don't sit on my ar5e and just rollover and accept what life throws at me, I fight for what I believe in. The difference between myself and some others is that I like IT and everything about it including the "intelligent" people it attracts. I don't want to work outside my chosen profession. Tell a doctor that he is to find another job like truck driving because management found some cheap offshore labour.
Your Economics 101 comment is referring to what...?? It doesn't make economic sense for companies to shoot themselves in the foot for short term gain at the bottom line. In fact they will be losing competitive advantage by getting rid of valuable experience, which, in the end, will be at the "expense of their own bottom lines". The point that you are missing is that companies are replacing experienced workers with inexperienced workers. Let's replace all of the doctors in your hospital with first year students, it amounts to the same thing; Cheap labour, very good bottom line in the short term (by short we are talking two to three months)... I don't know if you have worked with VAR's but in my experience recently (the past five years) the cowboy "managers" are only interested in cheap labour with certs so that they can maintain their "Partner Level". I have seen so many dodgy "Solution Architect" designed "Solutions" out there.
My selling the house was the RIGHT decision (here you go assuming again). It gave me funds to spend ten grand on current Cisco training courses. The current WAN knowledge allowed me to go for an IT Management position (hands on). Also, I lived 100Kms North of Sydney. I had to get closer to the work, I made a decision to stay in IT because I love it, not because it's another job that I can choose to leave and come back when the pickings are good. I have had to move into management to stay in IT because of the "opportunistic" attitude to cheap labour. I have interviewed a lot of this "cheap labour" and was not at all impressed with them. For one particular role I interviewed twenty people and I had to reject all of them because of lack of knowledge, experience, and common sense (that's IT sense I'm refering to). Their CV's spoke very highly of them as most advertisements do. It's amazing how many people didn't know what pathping was or what any of the reserved ip address ranges were.
You are correct when you stated that I assume that the future will be the same as the present...wait five seconds...there, point proven, nothing much has changed. What you are assuming is that everything will be "hunky-dory" in the future and everyone who abandoned IT for other pursuits without a fight can come strolling back to assume their normal positions (head down, butt in the air, ready for another hiding). Once you leave IT (like any profession that requires regular upgrading of skills) it is very hard to pick up where you left off, skillwise. I have decided to move into executive management and am completing a MBusIT. I don't have a uni degree and am finding the course extremely challenging. I will be on the board of some company in the near future and IT representation will be the better for it.
Add the stress of losing a wife to cancer in amongst all the Bu115h1t that started in IT five years ago and it's a wonder that I am still sane and working at all. A nice hippy commune on the North Cost looked very tempting to me on several occasions.
And no, I don't want to learn a new dance, I've just chosen a new song.

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