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Newbies and Non-Techs

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by 1stladytech

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I audit this forum quite frequently, but I don't always have time to answer or contribute. Recently I have noticed (along with the rest of you) that the types of questions and the level of expertise displayed by some of the users has taken a significant nose dive. Maybe we should ask TechRepublic to filter all content in questions and discussions areas to remove all requests for information of how to get Kazaa or other file sharing software running into a new area - shall we call it 10t area?

I have gotten some very good hints at this site from many of you about valid tech problems encountered at work. But no real tech would be trying to get p2p networks running on the office lan setup. I like this site as it is a community of peers, I get to talk to enough newbie users every day at work (repair shop - store front).

Let me know what you think,

Vickie

37 replies

by jackofalltech

I spent more than enough time talking to (L)users when I did desktop support years (and years) ago, I don't want to do it here. Please don't anyone get the impression I think I know it all - far from it! I just don't want to talk about getting printers to work or how to change color schemes anymore.

Ralph

by guruofdos

Ralph, I agree entirely! There are more than enough sites, web pages, chat rooms and forums for newbies and 'home' users. Every newsagent has at least a dozen magazines out every month with articles and features aimed at new users.

It suprises me that there isn't any 'vetting' for membership. I suppose the 'best' and most effective deterrent for keeping 'weeners' out would be a subscription so that only 'professionals' would pay and the 'weeners' would have to go elsewhere for 'free support'.

Making TR subscription based would then defeat the point of TR in my opinion. It would no longer be a forum for free exchange of ideas and opinions, more of a forum for 'chargeable' exchange of ideas!

On the other hand, in the UK at least, membership fees for professional or trade bodies is tax deductable!

by hal 9000

That it would reduce the world content has anyone seen the value of the Aussie Dollar lattely?

I recently bought a crash helmet in the US for $185.00US including air freight {dosen't matter that it is illegial over here as it doesn't have the right sticker on the outside} but I paid $325.85AU for this item.

Sorry mate but it would be just too expensive for some of us who treat this as relaxation and sometimes a bit of help both ways and would limit this site back to mainly as US dominated site with only a few "outsiders."

It wouldn't be very good for different opinions to get a look in then would it?

by hal 9000

I must take exception to your peer to peer coments. Sure this system is mainly used for "Home Networks" which are becoming very common now days but by the same token I recently went into a new small business with only 4 computers setup on a LAN and nobody would consider any other network as necessary for an installation like this. You ould never consider setting up a Domain in this sisutation would you?

Buy the way they sell heavy earthmoving equipment so they have a little over $1,000,000.00 AU turn over per month sure they will get bigger and things will change then but for now a peer to peer is the best for their needs.

But it was even better when I first went in there as the "Professional" who has set it up had set it up in such a way that the only communication between the computers in the building was via e-mail so they had the position of sending an e-mail through their ISP who leases bandwidth from a US site from one desk to the US and back again to another desk that was only 10 feet away.

Now to me that was a tad wasteful to say the least but I suspose it was very profitiable for their ISP. They now have a peer to peer network and their ISP bills have less that 25% of what they once where and they are now paying for their Web Site so I would hate to think what their bills would be now if I had of left things the way that they where.

by guruofdos

when she's referring to 'not setting up peer to peer networks on the office LAN' she's referring to file sharing networks like Kazaa, Napster and WinMX, not workgroup connectivity!

by 1stladytech

I have many client set up in a peer to peer in the office environment, but not for music sharing across the internet. I guess I have a hard time helping someone set up software that causes me to spend at least 45 minutes per machine extra in order to reverse and remove the problems that the software causes. If I never saw another spyware or virus program again, it would be to soon.

Vic

by jellimonsta

I personally do like to help out newbies when I can or offer my 2 cents. I also like to gather as much knowledge as possible. It seems as of late though I have been participating in more non technical posts than technical.
Maybe subconsciously I am tired of all of the P2P questions too?!? :)

by aronya1

How about a seperate discussion area, clearly designated as being for newbies? Administrators could move posts that get wrongly posted in other areas to the new area...

by guruofdos

Have levels of access related to techpoints...that way we could use the damn things!

A newbie would have to be a member of TR for (say) two months before his or her membership became 'active' i.e. allowed to post in discussions. This would allow them to post in a 'newbies' area. Us old hands could still access their areas so we could give the benefit of our collective wisdom.

Only when a member reached 5k techpoints could they advance to the forums proper. I see many 'weeners' join TR and then jump right in asking their Kazaa questions. Some have no profiles whatsoever and when you look at their activity they have none at all!!!

Techrepublic is renowned for it's helpfullness within 'the trade' and I guess news travels fast. Unfortunately, we are attracting all comers, but many are 'weeners' that want a quick fix for zero effort!

by aronya1

If you forced people to wait 2 months before they could post, they'd never join in the first place.

by guruofdos

What nonsense! I didn't say couldn't join, and they'd be able to READ the posts and join in Q&A. By earning Techpoints in Q&A, they'd then earn the priviledge of posting in the 'grown-up' debates...from day one of joining they can post in 'weeners' or 'newbies' forums. That's the idea! Besides, the impatient ones would piss off elsewhere if they couldn't wait that long. By imposing restrictions on newbies and allowing people access to 'big' debate only after a time limit or accruing techpoint's, we'd lose the weeners straight away. Only the serious people would bother to hang around, and that's what we're angling for....retaining the good members, and losing the 'my Kazaa has fucked up again - how do I fix it?' crowd.

by aronya1

Easy, man. I didn't put any words in your mouth. Here's what I was referring to:
"A newbie would have to be a member of TR for (say) two months before his or her membership became 'active' i.e. allowed to post in discussions." That's all. I apologize for overlooking your next line, where you said they could post in their own area. Actually, I like your idea. Even if it does just expand on mine! Sorry. I couldn't help pulling your chain a little.

by aronya1

I've been a member for several years, but haven't been to the forums for a long time. I was assuming there was SOMEbody monitoring things, but honestly don't remember.

by jardinier

Perhaps the "Miscellaneous" category could be split into two entirely different categories: "Non-Technical Discussions" and "Miscellaneous Technical Discussions." I'm not keen on the idea of charging a fee, other than a nominal one. You might just lock out some of the best brains on the site (e.g. people who are paying maintenance for the children of a previous marriage.) I doubt that there is a formula which says "Extensive IT knowledge assumes personal wealth."

Now some comments on TechRepublic's "New look -- no look" website. Whenever I accessed the site in the past I would see my Tech Points score. Now I cannot find it anywhere. To see if it was included in my Peer Profile, I typed in my surname and found that no-one of that name is a member. So I clicked on My Peer Listing, and found that the rotten bludgers had removed my stunningly handsome photograph. But still I could not find my tech points.

As for "newbies" versus "Pros," where exactly do you draw the line? I have never worked in the industry as an employee, and yet I have acquired a working knowledge these d*******d devices.

I sometimes contribute to the Technical Q & A, although usually TheChas has got there first and answered the question. Nevertheless I have received emails from a couple of people, thanking me for providing a solution to their problem.

In any area of knowledge which I have usually learnt the hard way by trial and error, I am happy to pass on what I have learnt to novices.

I would not like to see TechRepublic become "The USA IT Pros' MENSA."

by guruofdos

I agree with the idea that we don't want 'TechRepublic2003 (non-US residents need not apply!)'

Just a way of weeding out the 'BUSH IS A WANKER' and 'I can't play pirate movies I downloaded in Kazaa' postings from the main body of TR.

Even AOL has a 'New Members Lobby'. When you sign up an AOL account, and try to access chat, you are initially (for 30 days) directed to the New Members Lobby, where any chat or postings are 'moderated' by an online 'Guide' or 'Host' and newbies can get a feel for the 'rules of engagement' without upsetting the 'grown-ups'.

That's all I'm suggesting, a 'subscription' based on an initial 'probationary period' and perhaps being able to 'skip' some of this period by actively earning TechPoints by participating in Q&A. Many new members WILL be IT professionals, in which case, they will stick out a 'wait time' and 'participate' in a positive manner.

Others will be like you and me. We don't have MCSE certs or degrees (necessarily) in IT related subjects, but we do what we do based on inherent ability, acquired knowledge and proper application of our 'grey matter' and 'time and effort' to earning a living in the computer field.

You run Killara Computers. I run Honeybear Computers. I also work for a larger company as IT manager. You indulge in other activities too, I'm sure (freelance writing possibly?) so in our own way, we have every right to 'mix it' with the 'big cert players' because whatever it says on paper,we both earn our crust doing what we do. That is the definition of 'professional' in my book. I PROFESS to earn a living in IT!

As for paying child support...you and I both know that the system discriminates against the father...even if it WAS the mother's fault that it all went pear shaped. We just DON'T get a fair suck of the sav, eh?

by hal 9000

But whats far worse you're running the risk of getting me started on one of my pet hates and that s the Family Court here in Australia. While I've never been personally involved in any cases in this court I was present when it was setup an did know the person responsible and what he wanted for it.

I can also see what we got and there is nothing similar other than the word Court in the Title otherwise nothing is as it was envisiged.

Actually I lie I was once called against my will as a witness into this court and treated as a hostile witness into the bargin because they had to surpena me so I wasn't likely to be helpful to the person in question. If they knew that then why bother surpening me? As they where certian that I would not say what they wnated said. But it got even better as I left the lift was held up by security and the Judge in question got in and I was the only other person in the lift so he had to ask me if I thought that he got things right in there? Well he didn't like my answer either but more to the point he tried to have me charged with Contempt of Court not a hard case to prove when the Court is already in Contempt of the Law anyway but I had to point out that we where in a lift an dhis court was several floors up and in a different area and I was no longer under oath but better still he had asked me and I had volintared nothing until he approched me so I told him he could shove his beloved Court where the Sun Don't Shine and enjoy the feeling as I was certian no one else would. Actually I don't know what made him more upset my responce to his stupitidy or his body guards laughing at my responce and their insistance that I had posed no threat to the Judge so they could do nothing to confine me. Actually I think they thought that I was right but where unable to say anything. The one thing that I'm certain of is that no one had ever spoken to this guy like this previously.

What I have found very interesting however is that I know a few retired Judges all from the Criminal Courts where they are responsible for detaining people and taking them out of society for some very long periods of time and one remarkd to me that he had personally been responsible for locking up thousands of people for all kinds of things and had often been threatned but never actually attacked at Work and certianly never been approched at home but people in his position from "That Other Court" where often subject to threats and had on numerious ocasions been atacked and on one occasion even killed while at home.

Now maybe I'm just stupid but I think that shows some very basic problems within this Court and I know for certian I'm not the only one who feels this way. Currently you would be better off killing your wife rather than face a amicable divorce let alone a contested one as you wouldn't suffer the same degree of punishment for the same period as you do in a divorce. Why is it that murder has a lower punishment rate?

by guruofdos

We're all guilty of missing a pertinent phrase or point...even us 'old crusties'.

Pass me the Prozac, someone?

by pgm554

Having a waiting period to post would exclude somebody that needs a question answered ASAP.
It took me a couple of months to get 5K+ points(sooner if these posters would quit posting and never award points).

I have helped folks immediatly(from day one)
when I first started checking these forums out.

If I had to wait to post(as suggested by some),then I probably wouldn't bother to stick around and help out .

Yeah ,there are other forums for the kid stuff,but if we don't answer,maybe they will go away.(here's hoping for an MTV attention span for the little huffers)

by hal 9000

I particuarly like the one about people not awarding Tech Points and just closing off the question without even having the decency of telling the people interested enough to try to help them.

But my question of the week was from a customer on the phone demending to know "Is the off white Computer the newest one available?" No other description just the colour of the box and I'm susposed to be able to answer that.

by dnvrtechgrrl

I come here to participate in the only intelligent conversation I'm going to receive in my day. I choose not to answer questions in the Q&A because I'm smart enough to know that there are people out there who can answer them much better and have more experience than I. I choose not to participate in many debates because I know on the age spectrum I'm on the lower rungs, though not a teen or young adult having problems with Kazaa or some hideous chat client, I am still young and inexperienced in this field. I've only been supporting networks and users for about five years.

I still need to benefit from the more refined members. I'd also like to think at some point I might offer a valuable contribution.

What I am hearing is that newbies and weeners and young people should no longer be allowed to post questions, partake of discussion or engage in debate. That's rediculous. Age or time in the field should have nothing to do with the ability to learn from each other. Putting yourself out in the open as an experienced member of the community is going to follow a natural progression where more inexperienced people seek you out for help and advice. There is no rule that says "only intelligent, IT related people will seek you out." You make yourself available, and ANYONE can find you. Trust me.

Granted, this brings about the redundant and irritating questions of AOL'ers that don't understand that this is a technical forum for people in the field. But a "forum wide" lockout on those who are young, inexperienced or those who don't accrue a mass amount of points is only going to defeat the original purpose of this site.

Education. Community. Knowlege. Sharing.

Creating a sepratist community is only going to diminish the value that this place holds.

by hal 9000

But there are some good points raised about some of the time wasting people who can't be bothered getting off their arses to help themselves and expect instant help free of charge from us when they screw up with stupid things.

If you keep to the halfway decent sections of this forum and try to avoid the political and religious discussions you won't really go wrong.

Then there are the ones that are so far removed from our day to day work that you justhave to get involved if only to get your mind off the days cockup's.

by hal 9000

What I really love is the staff memeber who installs something like those listed above unknown to the System Admin. Then claims to have no idea of exactly how it got on their computer when the problems start and after you have spent hours tracking down the offending unit.

But on the other hand I still get a good laugh on e-mailing a invoice from Brisbane to the US back to Brisbane to another workstation 10 feet away just so it can be printed on a laser printer. You have to admit thatis a hard one to beat particuarly since a so called professional set up the system and they where not connected with the ISP involved. But I think they must have been on a commision from someone for doing this.

Actually currently my son is pestering me to setup a peer to peer network at his home so he can play games across the network and he can't understand exactly why I'm not interested. But he comes from a different generation where computers are no longer tools but play toys.

Now if anyone has an idea of how to get this idea out of his head I would be eternally gratefull.

OK back on topic again when I come across someone who has installed some of these file sharing programsd on a work computer I limit their e-mail access to e-mail attachments to under 1.5 MEG and stop them from downloading anything new off the either inter or intra net and I also remove all external drives. While this is only punishment for a few weeks for a first offence the discrase that is heaped on them by their fellow work mates seems to prevent them from repeating the same thing in the future.

Luckly I live in an area where people just don't run to their nearest Lawer or I may be in trouble but it certianly saves a lot of problems.

by hal 9000

A 14 year old kid whos one goal in life is to convert everyone to using AMD CPU's no matter what. When reason willnot get the point across he reverts to first dismissing you because of the country you live in {you know the US is the centre of the world} and then he starts throwing personal insults at you. Well I was silly enough to see some potential in him when I first ran across him so I attempted to give him some help from time to time and provided I never mentioned Intel there was no problem.

Then someone {a complete newby asked how to build a proper enginers box} there where the normal complment of high end game units suggested buy these so called experts and there where two other people beside myself who posted something like the required specs and then went on to say these where dependant on what he planed to run {I'm sure you know the rest.}

Well as I never approched this particular kid directly I was unprepared for his responce to say it was well over the top would be one of the understatments of this century and that is being very fair. He started off withinsisting that AMD made better CPU's than INtel so it was only a waste of money suggesting a Dual Xeon based unit and that SCSI HDD's where not at all fast so this was nothing but an attempt to waste even more money from this person and that I was attempting to get work through a public forum. {Exactly how that would have worked I'm not quite sure as the person in question lives in the US and I live in AU so I can't see anyone being intersted in buying something here and then freighting it to the US.}

But when I very correctly spelt out all the advantages and disadvantages of each paltform he behaved as if I had personally attacked him with something red hot and inserted it in a very painful place, better still the posting wasn't even addressed to him so how he took offence I'm not quite sure. But what made me see red was when he insisted that the only place where computers where made was in the US and everyone else had to make do with the left overs that the good people in the US didn't want and where dumping on the world markets. Well Silly me actually asked him exactly how an item made in Tiawian for a US company and sold world wide was second rate compared to what was available in the US but unfortantly I went a bit further and suggested he actually look at a map of the world and he just might see that the US was not in the centre and that Tiawian was closer to AU than the US so we got things faster. I listed several US companies who all manafcture off shore and al in the Asis Pacific Area.

Well to put it mildly if I had of been Sadam Hussain or BenLaden I would have got a better responce from most of the people there as I was obviously lying and attempting to bring the US into disrepute well in their eyes anyway and then to make matters worse this 14 YO actually had the gall to make an official complaint against me for critising the US. Well at tleast the Admin there was fair and advised me not to post in such a provocitive manner again but he laid into this kid for starting the whole thing in the first place.

Now pardom me but I'm still smarting from that attack and I would want to avoid all newbies as much as possible particuarly if they have some hidden agenda in an attempt to convert us to their way of thinking when they are not legally responsible for their actions like the rest of us are.

by don_c

Yes i'm a newbie but not a weener. This newbie needs to learn form the more wiser IT pro's. This newbie knows when to shut up and listen and when to insert foot. This will nebie will sit back an watch and learn an to stay away from riverfreight. There are some of us newbie's that understand it works both ways. When the IT pro's can't understand one IT pro you begain to ask yourself question's on if this IT pro is for real. Its hard to find good help these.

I'm studying for my MCSE and need to have all the resources that I can get. and as far as aol'kazzaa and ect. if they can't solve those question on there own well

by guruofdos

We were all newbies once!

Kazaa and it's ilk can take their own chances. AOL on the other hand is a different story! More people worldwide use AOL than virtually any other ISP. For a start, it is available in at least 14 countries. We may not all 'like' AOL, but it IS a mainstream application for home users, and independent computer techs like me need to know it's ins and outs (and problems!). So yes...ask me AOL questions if you need to, I won't bite your ears off. Just don't mention Kazaa in my presence!

Isn't it Australian? Jules, Col...it's all your bloody fault!

by hal 9000

I have exactly the same opinionas you do G.O.D. about both of these things.

But I'll go further as some of my clients expect me to perform all their leg work for them as well. As a complimentary service I e-mail all of my clients when a new M$ Patch/Hot Fix or whatever becomes available {but only after I've first tested them} and let them know if it is alright to install these things.

Now just before that nice friendly Blaster thing hit I was called out to 5 clients to install all the necessary patches as they just couldn't get off their fat arses to do it themselves, {Funny how a bit of TV coverage (panic) gets people to listen isn't it?}

by koz365

yes I am a neewbie and I do understant what it is you are saying and toattly agree (want p2p go to kazza'z faq). The one post I put up was more for the benifit of trying to convince my boss not to deal with a certant indulvidual. I have a home network that I use for learning how to configure and apply permissinos and user rights to each PC I have (a win98 and xp in their own workgroup and i have a NT 4.0 domain server,a workstation a win98 and wfw3.11 and w2k pro in my domain that I user for learning) I also take care of the office PCs at my job and take care of my churchs PC lab. I finish tech school in Dec. and will get my A+ in Jan. But back to your point as I said before I agree use the FAQs. But remember the only stuipd question is the one you don't ask...

by 1stladytech

What if we ask TR to set up a separate area for the types of questions or programs that everyone is reacting to (kazza, etc). That way they could all post in there, we would never visit it and then they would go back to the support areas of the programs themselves where they belong. I don't agree that all newbies are weeners nor that all weeners are newbies. It is more the content and intent of the posting that gives you the label. I started in the field very young, and have several high school and college aged friends that I ask programing questions of, so it is not the age - it's the attitude.

Vic

by guruofdos

And then the TR discussions 'By Topic/By Republic' list would look like:

Security (1021)
Client Support (1497)
Certification (605)
Career (1096)
Management (958)
Miscellaneous (2752)
General Technology (2766)
Contentious Issues (47028)

Home Republic (113)
NetAdmin Republic (1319)
Support Republic (1463)
CIO Republic (964)
IT Manager Republic (1232)
IT Consultant Republic (939)
TechProGuild (788)
Weener Republic (2359302)

or something. Any topics in 'New Discussions' or 'Hot Discussions' could be highlighted in a different colour to indicate they came from either Weener Republic or Contentious Issues.

This would tie in well with the 'probationary period' I suggested. People within their first month or two who hadn't earned 5k+ techpoints could also be highlighted in a different colour.

Vic...I think we've cracked it! I wonder if TR are watching?

by don_c

What about use nonweener nebies that sit back and read the theads to learn more an only ask question once in a while we newbies get look down on because are tech pionts are very low i understand how to get more points by opening and closing question but im not here for points im here to learn

by hal 9000

That with all the outsourceing to offshore suppliers we are now seeing the result and only seeing the first line of tech's who are the predomant people present rapidly taking over this forum as they are the only ones still working and the rest of the experienced people have either lost their jobs and their interest or moved to other fields.

While I'm joking here it is a posibility and could very easily happen. What I have noticed over time and more so recently is that there are a lot of questions from nontechnical people on the discussion pages and I'm begining to think that this is now becoming a forum for all perhaps this is a sigh of suscess being a bad thing as TR is now attracting more first time computer users and the real techs are being drowned in the rush to get a word in.

by 1stladytech

As with our business, it goes with the ebb and flow of business. When times are good, we get less calls for free tech support (can you walk me through installing my printer over the phone at no charge?) than we do in this type of economy. This goes for business users as well as home users. It does seem that we have more end users and students that are trying to get into the field lately. Everyone needs to learn somewhere, but I wish that the time was taken to research existing answered questions before a post is made. The other thing that gets to me is the obvious test questions that you see in the Q&A section from time to time. I really can't beleive that anyone would answer this type of question. When I was in school, that was considered cheating, but maybe I'm just old fashioned, now it is considered good research if you can get someone else to do it for you.

Vickie

by hal 9000

Or so th esong goes but you're totally correct particuarly about what I would also consider as cheating I can still remember being accused of cheating because I carried a slide rule into a Uni Exam {now that shows my age doesn't it?} Now I not only see scientific calculators but LT's and Tablets being considered as necessary for the very same exam that I was almost thrown out of because I forgot to put down something that I always carried on me.

I know the courses aren't any harder so has the standard of education slipped or is it just acceptiable for these things now most of which are wireless or bluetooth enabled I might add.

Then there is the other side of the coin at a private Uni over here last year a question was put to the Law section and as it was very similar to one asked a few years previously some bright indivual got the idea to get a copy of the old question and sell it to anyone who wanted it. Naturaly they got caught but what I found totally offensive was that only the AU students involved who bought the thing got expelled and the ringleaders where allowed to continue without any form of punishment.

Now while I don't for one monent condone this activity I stillthink that if it isd good enough to get some expelled from the Uni it should apply to all involved particuarly the ones selling the paper as I still consider this a far more serrious breach of trust than those who where silly enough to buy copies. But unfortantly because there was a lot of money involved it was expident to make an exapmle of a few natives and leave the reat alone. They didn't even have to do a different paper they where allowed to submoit blatant plagurised work with the full knoledge of the Dean of the Uni and the teachers.

To me this is just plain wrong but as they where foregin students we can't say that because we will be called racist.

I honestly don't know what the world is comming to when you have to guard what you say about indivual people and their actions and in no way refer to special interest groups. I had the same conversation with a friend who comes from Veitnam and he was the first to point out the stupidy of the position as if he was white I could say whatever I though about him but because of his race I can't say anything else than he's a really nice guy which he is but if he was no better than a thief and was robbing people blind I couldn't say anything about his actions.

Anyway I strayed off topic enough for one night so have a good day/night or whatever it is when you read this.

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