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No titles in replies?

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I would like to remove the TITLE field from replying to threads. What do you all think?

We would still have titles on starting a thread; however, when you reply, you could just type your reply.

I always find myself having to stop and think of a title, even though I know exactly what I want to say in the MESSAGE field.

In the thread tree, we would show the first 47 characters of the MESSAGE field (which is what we do now if there is no title).

So what are your thoughts?

99 replies

by jaqui

then why in replying to a post the other day did I get an error requiring me to put a title in?

Actually, if you need a title for the thread display of the posts, then you might as well leave them in.
I agree it's a pain to have to think of a post title, which is why a serious reply I usually use the first couple of words for the reply as the title.

by smorty71

Don't I feel stupid! The form is requiring a title.

I still think we should get rid of it.

by apotheon

I don't think we should get rid of it. In fact, what bothers me is the notion of just using the first n characters of the post as the title. This has been default behavior at TR for some time, as far as I can tell, and the end result is a mess: we end up with linebreaks being amongst those first n characters, italics, and other things -- which wouldn't really be a problem, if italics didn't break editing capability (at least temporarily) when I forget to add a title and linebreaks in the title didn't completely screw up the thread display.

Also, I like having the option of adding a post title and I like others providing useful titles. A title like "OS vs. application platform" is a lot more descriptive than "Well, I think that what you're saying is . . .". It's also worth considering the fact that it's easier to use a browser's search functionality to find posts by title when those titles are named according to content rather than whatever babbling comes out of the poster's fingers as a clumsy means of leading into a counterpoint.

I say keep it as an option rather than eliminating it or requiring it, and fix the autofill so that it strips all markup from those first 47 characters, including linebreaks -- or perhaps cuts off at 47 characters or the first linebreak, whichever comes first (while still stripping markup so we don't get the broken-editing thing with italics).

by jaqui

Since that requirement is a change with the last alteration in the script, you aren't that stupid.

1) emoticons are now rendering in post titles [ chnged in last couple of weeks ]

2) titles are now required, the first x charachters of the post won't do any more.

3) change the term to Subject of Post rather than title

4) mouseover gives the first 47 characters of the post. [ vbulliten does this on Linuxquestions.org very handy feature as you can see if the post has content you want / need to read before clicking on it.]

by rob mekel

I put the title in the first 47 positions of my text. Right?

Seriously, altho titles can be a pain in the a$$ sometimes and they will take time if making up a nice one. I think it is worthwhile doing.

Rob

by charliespencer

At first I thought, "Ditch 'em. Most posters don't enter effective titles that give a reader any idea what's inside their message."

Then I thought, "Keep 'em. That occasional user who does enter a relevant title should be encouraged."

Then I thought, "Keep 'em but make them optional. Those who use titles effectively can continue to do so, and those who don't like to enter a title can let the first 47 characters speak for themselves."

Then I -decided- it doesn't matter to me either way.

by apotheon

That 47 characters thing, if it's going to be used, needs to be FIXED. TR has allowed the whole n characters thing in the past as an alternative to post titles, but its implementation was horribly broken because of the way it handled markup and the fact that linebreaks mangled display of post titles in the thread. That's bad. I'd rather keep forcing use of titles than have to deal with that crap any longer.

by jdclyde

keep them.

it sometimes takes people a minute or two to get to the point in a discussion.

The title helps to identify what the post is about, and depending on my time that day, if I will open it or not.

This is like saying "Lets get rid of the subject line for emails".

I don't open emails without a subject line unless they are from my boss.

Keep the title line.

by cactus pete

But if you insist, perhaps make it populated with a default of some sort so it's not such an issue.

by apotheon

I think a better option than using the first n characters of a post would be checking the previous post's title to see if it starts with "RE: ". If it does, just repeat the previous posts title. If not, prefix "RE: " to it, then use that. Make it more like email. This would even work for responses to the very first post -- and for the very first post, the title should be mandatory.

by cactus pete

Since TR is in the mood, lately, for scrapping things... Just forget all this discussion layout and move to a linear format.

by wayne m.

I would say it is worth a try. I am assume we could always revert back to titles if need be.

I can probably come up with a lot of quibbles ahead of time, but I think this is one of those "you gotta try it to understand it" changes. Titles may be helpful or may not be missed at all; I really can't tell.

Lastly, I would like to note that so far everyone has gone ahead and typed in descriptive titles. Who knows what that means!

by apotheon

1. I wish they'd get rid of emoticons in post titles. It's bad enough when they're in the body of a post. Now I have to see them in the titles. Someone must pay!

4. I thought you didn't like Javascript.

by jaqui

it's the second biggest piece of exploitware out there.
[ activex, MS's proprietary JAVASCRIPT is the biggest ]

but mouseover isn't limted to javascript you know, it works with css as well ~l~

by apotheon

Your implication is correct: the same effect could be achieved with CSS. On the other hand, that would be a really nasty hack, and I would mericlessly mock anyone that used it.

by dc guy

When a thread gets beyond a couple of dozen postings, as most do, it's not easy to find your way if you're trying to go back to something interesting that you saw a few minutes ago. The titles make an informal map.

It would be nice to have something better, but for now this works.

Many BBSs simply give you a scroll of the entire text of all messages rather than a directory like TR. You can only fit so many on a page and you'll end up having ten or twelve pages on some of these long threads, but that would be easier to navigate--fewer clicks--than this directory architecture.

What I would really like to see is shorter threads. Nobody can possibly read fifty messages more than a few times a week, so they end up writing replies that duplicate information or opinions that have already been posted twelve times in the same thread.

I wonder whether scrolling the text of the messages rather than a directory, and actually seeing what other people have written instead of meaningless titles like "I agree," would help curtail this.

by jdclyde

is to use the PRINT option.

You can VERY quickly read the entire discussion, (until it gets over, say, 200?)

the only problem is it doesnt mark them as "read".

by sleepin'dawg

I read your post and said yup, JD is right, the print option lets you read all of a discussion; as to why you would want to or need to is another matter entirely. Some time ago when that was first brought up, I tried it. It took me a moment or two before realizing that what was meant by using the the print option, was really a reference to using the print preview portion of the print option. I didn't think anything of it at the time except shortly thereafter several people complained they couldn't make the print option work for them. I even had someone send me a pm asking how the print option was to be used and what surprised me about that, was the question came from someone who I thought was more or better informed on the subject than I was.

How many times have you seen someone who has been a TR member for quite some time, ask how to make and use emoticons or manipulate text. We direct them to the appropriate post, which by the way, [b][i]needs to be updated[/i][/b] as regards the change from O to 0, but as time goes by you might see one or two abortive attempts and then nothing else. It is fairly clear that, that particular individual did not or could not comprehend the instruction. You have to wonder sometimes, especially if the member has been around for four or five years and has a 10 - 25K Q&A rating, what the hell is going on or is wrong.

If these were isolated incidents involving only one or two members you might assign it to being a lack within a particular individual but since it is totally random in character and it can't be defined or isolated based on experience and/or intelligence, then maybe, the problem lies within the instructions being inaccurate, imprecise or ambiguous and it is the latter, I think which is probably at the root of a lot of the problems.

Too often statements are made with the assumption being made that the subject, in its entirety, is understood by the reader or listener. Most of the time, you would be right but every now and then you will encounter a subject that you take for granted but is unknown to someone else. It isn't that they are stupid and you are brilliant; it more than likely means you learned whatever, in a different manner or context.

Anyone who has ever read an instruction book written for the military is imediately struck by the seemingly repetitive and redundant nature of the writing. Many with a military background would agree with your assessment except they will remind you that the military accepts people of diverse educational and background experience and in deference to this they make sure there can be no possible ambiguity to their instructions. As I once heard it expressed the books were, "Written by geniouses for execution by idiots." Sometimes I think we forget that all of us come to IT from an assortment of backgrounds and experience.

We are all, or mostly all, techno-freaks. Technology amuses and amazes us but sometimes we forget that just because we can do something, it does not mean we should do something. I think that is an idea that needs to be kept in mind regarding whatever changes are going to be made to TR. I understand the problems and frustrations that TR faces but understand that the natural tendancy of people is to resist change. No matter what is done or how well it is implemented, it will not meet the approval of all and you will lose some members. Hopefully the changes will attract new and interesting members to replace them. Lately I myself have noticed a shift in the membership and while this is interesting, TR is not as familiar as it once was. Whether this is good or bad, remains to be seen but it would be a shame if TR fizzled out due to boredom and apathy.

[b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

by apotheon

Hah. I couldn't help myself. I had to title a post that way.

Okay, here's the thing:

I like having a hierarchical view of the discussion structure. For one thing, it (like discussion on a mailing list) provides a way for discussion branches to occur -- which I think is actually one of the strengths of TR as compared with websites that only provide a linear discussion structure. Even if some of you don't like it, the hierarchical structure seems well suited to TR's business model, which relies on greater participation by greater numbers of people to generate ad impressions.

Linear discussion structures limit the potential scope and depth of a discussion by making it more difficult to pursue specific subthreads of discussion in a meaningful way without derailing the entire discussion. If you think off-topicness is a problem with a hierarchical discussion structure, just wait until an off-topic branch to a discussion occurs in a linear discussion and derails the entire friggin' thing with no hope of getting back on track because there have been thirty posts in the last six hours devoted to a tangent.

Switching to a linear discussion structure would absolutely kill TR's current community involvement, and TR would basically have to rebuild that entire aspect of the website's customer base back up from scratch -- and I don't think it would ever recover, in part because it would have chased off many of the long-time regulars and because it would have instituted functional policy that limits the ability of others to get involved past very minor limits.

If something's going to be changed, perhaps TR should look more to the example of http://perlmonks.org rather than that of a linear discussion forum, where each post is its own "node" from which further discussion can branch if it needs to.

by hal 9000

Linear defiantly is not the way to go it just gets impossible to read someones reply to something that you've posted and even worse it prevents others joining in as they most likely will miss the original post so they misunderstand what is happening and go even further [b]Off Topic![/b] Confusing everyone and making the entire thing a mess. Can you imagine something like the EL thread being Linear? :p

By the way apotheon the emotions where just for you. :^0

Col

by charliespencer

That make navigating a discussion too much like the incoherent format of comments on a blog. It would become impossible to tell who each response was addressed to and which message threads went together.

by sleepin'dawg

Just for the hell of it, I decided to try it to see what would happen. I also wonder what will happen when the maximum number of posts is reached?

by Jay Garmon

We've tossed around a linear format as an optional toggle (no, we're not counting the print view). There are some concerns:

1) Some of our threads get so large that browsers choke on the data dump, and don't render the full page (Firefox, I'm looking in your direction). We could probably solve this by paginating--say, 10 message per page--but that kind of defeats the point.

2) We lose ad impressions, because you don't have to turn pages to read the thread (Meaning the bosses are reluctant; we'd have to keep pageviews flat or better to keep the feature long term)

3) We can't link directly to individual posts. We have this problem now when citing comments in blogs. It might be solvable with anchor tags.

Of course, there ar ethose who say linear is a bad solution to teh problem. The issue is making trheads easier to evaluate and surf. Maybe something like Digg.com's individual post rating system is the answer. I've not been a big fan, but there is something to be said for the low overhead of an "Agree" button on every post, so passing users can "weight" posts without cluttering up the conversation with quick "I agree" posts. The counterargument is that the quick posts do add to the conversation, but I'm not sure I agree.

Any thoughts?

by apotheon

1. Minimize the cruft on the screen when presenting a huge linear-format display. Get as close to plain text as possible. That should help significantly. It'll also help if there's less Flash on the screen. It's also a good idea to limit the number of posts on the screen at one time -- it doesn't need to be ten per screen, but making it thirty posts at a time is by no means unreasonable. On the other hand, this is beginning to sound a lot like the Print display plus pagebreaks.

2. I can fully understand the ad impressions concern. I actually agree with your bosses to some extent on this one. You need to keep those ad impressions coming in so the site will pay for itself (and for you).

3. Whatever you do, [b]do not eliminate the ability to link to individual posts[/b]. Please, fertheluvvagawdanalldatswholly, keep the ability to link to individual posts.

Linear layouts would be a huge problem here. I don't think it's anywhere near the right solution to your problems. A wider display area and greater allowable post depth would be nice, though. In fact, I recommend an unlimited post depth with some kind of visual trickery (such as "and fifteen posts beyond maximum viewed post depth") to keep additional posts from screwing up the view.

I'm not a huge fan of a post rating system for a discussion forum, either. The discussion is the point of the threads here, not focus on popularity, and using a rating system will I think prove counterproductive. Rather than improving on the system you're using, it would change the system to put you in direct competition with other sites that'd cream you in their market niches for a number of unavoidable business reasons (greater specialization, longer history in the niche, et cetera).

I'm also not a van of an "agree" button in addition to a "reply" button because making it easier to lodge a "metoo" will encourage that in favor of encouraging actual contributions to the discussion. The truth of the matter is that simple "I agree" comments are not an issue right now: they just don't happen enough to worry about trying to stem the tide with an "agree" button. Don't divert people from feeling like they should say something substantive, because once they start thinking about what they can say to make their comments more than merely "I agree", they sometimes come up with worthwhile statements that provoke thought and more discussion.

by cactus pete

I think some "linearity" is OK, but to wholly switch, no, I wasn't really suggesting that. It was more of a poke at you for the Q&A changes, and a reference back to the old debate about the discussions...

BUT...

If you could make collapsable threads, that'd be cool. Someone just needs to make a way of enumerating the numbers for unread or new messages inder the tree's branches. This would also allow you more room for subthreads.

Of course, asking you to keep track of which messages I've actually read is a huge deal.

But here's where it helps me - I don't have to worry about where I left off when I switch computers, or when I've been away from the thread for more than a day.

But perhaps I can suggest that we make the thread sortable. Sorting by date added or author would be nice, and you can reload the page again to boot! Then, clicking on the link you pick can either load the page in the standard layout with focus on the selected message, or just load the post in a drop down... (to make the bosses happy, reload the whole page to accomplish this)

Long discussions are good, but unweildy. Collapsable threads would help us out a lot and it beats the tar out of 10 messages per page...

by wayne m.

TR may want to consider a Wiki format for linear response. This would let users self organize responses into sections. It doesn't solve the linking problem, so it would have to be a trade-off.

A good trial might be to use a wiki for responses to blogs. This would provide a side-by-side comparison of the mechanisms.

by apotheon

Wikis aren't really optimal for discussions. Forum scripts and the like are better suited for that. A wiki's strength is in collaborative document development. I don't think a wiki would be at all appropriate for providing a linear discussion mechanism or blog commenting.

by deepsand

1) [i]Why[/i] do you want to do this.

2) If you do do it, how can I then control [i]precisely[/i] what is displayed as a Title?

I do [b]not[/b] want to have to count the number of characters in my desired Title & pad it to make up the default number of 47 characters preparatory to beginning the Body of post!

by thechas

Titles help me find new postings that interest me.

Without the title field I am not apt to look at what someone has posted to a thread.

Especially when it comes to the "water-cooler" threads, there are a lot of postings that I purposely skip over.

In a discussion on an article, the titles help me skip off topic sub-threads, and may eliminate duplicate postings.

Keep the titles.

If you need a title prompt, have a default of the posting number within the thread.

Chas

by gadgetgirl

Yours?

Mine?

TR's?

O..........k - and add a global clock to the site, too, please, in that case! :p

GG

by hal 9000

One way or the other as I tend to just start off what I'm going to type in as the Title and treat it as a Header.

But [b]The Chas[/b] is right if you allow this to be skipped and just place the first 47 characters of the post as a Title you'll end up with breaks in words and the like or even worse Formating options will be broken as it's possible to have something like [b][/i[/b] and then the remainder on the next line as the first charter of the text like [b]][/b] so everything will be in [i]Italics.[/i]

If you where to do this you would have to write a subroutine to strip out any formatting and emoticons as well from the Title or at least the first 47 characters which would then prevent people using the emotions in the title when they want to as well as [i]Italics.[/i]

Col.

by deepsand

I'm so confused.

Even [b]with nesting,[/b] it can very quickly become confusing as to which post any other one refers.

Besides, the present structure very quickly becomes linear owing to the very shallow depth of nesting currently implemented.

I vote for [b]more depth[/b], not less.

by apotheon

I think that pretty much sums it up. We just need more depth.

(Effectively) unlimited depth, actually.

by jardinier

I wouldn't bother reading a discussion if I didn't have some idea of how it was progressing and the DIRECTION in which it was turning, which can more often than not be determined from the post titles.

What I WOULD like to see are titles that give an indication of the content of the thread. Otherwise it is just like a lucky dip.

If the title were eliminated, I presume the name (alias) of the poster would still be visible, because again this indicates the direction that the discussion is taking, by seeing who is participating.

The mouse-over suggestion would be OK IF the full title was shown in the print format.

Quite frankly I cannot see any reason whatsoever to change the situation from what it is, other than to encourage people to indicate the content of the post by the title.

by smorty71

it would just be the first characters of the body of the reply. So if you are looking at the thread tree, you would still see a title, the person who posted it, the date, etc.

The only real difference would be in the process of replying.

It sounds like there are a lot of options/opinions for us to kick around before we make a decision, though.

by sleepin'dawg

47 characters can be too many or not enough. If you wish to make a point and you wish to employ four to ten characters as a title, would that mean I would have to pad my reply with spaces or........... well what?

[b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

by stargazerr

I would rather like to keep the titles. They give us an idea of what to expect in the corrosponding post. Sometimes it also adds an element of surprise.

Putting in the first 47 characters will look very messy. :x

]:)

by gadgetgirl

Some of the wittiest titles are what makes people read the post in the first place!

Also, if you're "aiming" a reply at a particular poster, it ensure the other peers know who it's in reply to.

Personally, I like the new function of emoticons in the title - you at least know if the post is funny/serious/angry before you go any further.

Considering how many times a day jd posts here, I think you'd have to give him an automatic character counter to keep him on track, anyway!

(Or were you going to combine that with his spoolcheeker???!! :p )

Smorty, please keep 'em. Like a previous poster (ohmygod, am I agreeing with jd here?) stated, it's like receiving an email without a subject line, and we all know they go straight in the trash.

Keep up the good work, though, guys, we all really do appreciate you, honestly! :x

GG

by rob mekel

As the title of the previous post gives me quite a punch line on what is to be expected.

Rob

by dmambo

Smorty has to pause to think about a title??? When you're superficial and borderline moron like me, that's the easiest part. The post is the difficult thing to come up with.

Personally, I think removing titles from posts would have the same impact on my reading as removing the user ID from the post title. I use it as a quick screen to determine what I'll read and what I'll skip. Keep 'em.

by rob mekel

Or was it the level of mind you meant? :D
I won't be the judge on that.

If there is no level-depth end some discussions will go on forever. Altho so is it now sometimes as well.

Rob

by jaqui

why not just remind everyone that all post date / time stamps are on server time, which is Pacific time

gmt - 7 during the daylight stupid time right now.
gmt - 8 when it's standard time.

when you post, look at the date / time stamp on it, that will time sequence the entire site for you :p

by cactus pete

When I logged in, TR started tracking me, and it gives me a little feedback specific to me. Why not have us set our global clock for our login ID?

This would also be good to see timezones of other posters (should they chose to reveal it, much like location).

by jaqui

to know where I am, I'm in the same time zone as the server. :p

In the best City in North America to live in. :D

mountains, oceans, beaches, beautiful women scantily clad. [ topless is legal even ]

by gadgetgirl

location?

I'd love to! It won't bloodywell let me! It doesn't take UK addresses in any shape, form or variety - both NeilB and I have tried, believe me!

Would be nice to know if other TR peeps are going to the same conferences etc. that I am! (I'd feel a darn site safer then, too!) Just peer mail the UK-ites and see who is going where - see, easy. Now, to email all 4 million members here would take me just a little tooooooo long!

As for times and global clocks - please don't go there....my Einstein syndrome has kicked in.....should I be eating my breakfast now?

:D

GG

by apotheon

If we're going to do something like that, Jaqui, we should definitely use Greenwich Mean Time instead of server-local time or a mish-mash of times from members. This is an international community, which means we should use something that's basically location-neutral (or about as close to it as possible) and -- this is [b]very important[/b] -- doesn't screw around with Daylight Stupid Time, especially since different time zones employ DST at different dates.

by sleepin'dawg

sort of have a lock on GMT have instituted BST a couple of weeks ago. This stands for [b]B[/b]ritish [b]S[/b]ummer [b]T[/b]ime and what with the usual stubborn intransigence of Brits, they will expect us to follow suit seeing as how they feel they own the standard, which of course they do; sort of. :^0 ;)

[b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

by the admiral

The title doesn't bother me as much as those darned tags as a requirement. Besides, what ever happened to RE: TITLE of original post?

However, it is annoying that the Title of the reply is a REQUIREMENT, rather than the software taking the original and putting a RE in front of it.

by jaqui

my commonly used protest for the required tag thing..

mandatory tags suck

theres a few discussions tagged with that phrase. ]:)

by sleepin'dawg

Now there's a thought; non-sucking tags. The mind boggles.

Frankly I have never understood the need for tags anyway. Who uses them??? Not me and I suspect not too many others either. Likewise, the [i]my workspace[/i] idea, cute but really unnecessary.

However, something that is really needed and has been repeatedly asked for, ever since I've been on TR, is a spell checker and to date, that wish has been completely ignored. How many flame wars have arisen out of typos and spelling errors changing the meaning or intent of a post???

I sometimes wonder if the TR guys would have been the sort to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic. They provide us with all sorts of bells and whistles, that few or nobody asked for and have lost sight of the idea of missing the iceberg. They have identified the problem areas that need fixing such as Tech Q&A but seem to avoid the simplest of approaches. First, just try scrapping the points. Second drop any question that has be responded to but has been neither accepted nor rejected 30 days after the last response. Drop all questions that haven't been responded to after 14 days. Eliminate at least half of the headings under which A question can be asked; there are too many at the moment. Frankly I think they can be narrowed to two : Hardware and Software are more than enough; all the rest are really unnecessary.

Another feature I am dubious about is the need for the blog section. If people really feel a need for a blog there are many places other than TR they could post them and link to them from here. Other than Jay's blog and perhaps Smorty's, I've felt no pressing need to look at anyone elses blog and see no reason to put one of my own up. Like I want to go wading through the trash cans of peoples minds??? And that is precisely what most blogs are and I could care less. Work it out people, if your idle musings were worth anything you would be rich. It's bad enough we waste time posting to TR but blogs??? Get real.

Ooops!!! Slipped into a bit of a rant there and I promised someone I would wait a day before I did that again.

[b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

by deepsand

Once the max. nesting depth has been reached, one might be responding to one or more of any number of posts. How would the "software" know which you are mementarily addressing?

And, why be redundant? That's as good as no Title at all!

by jdclyde

Country
time zone

People new to TR will make the mistake of just assuming this is a AMERICAN board, because it is based in America.

When there isn't even a way to acknowledge living anywhere BUT the US, it is understandable.

by jdclyde

Yes, people tend to forget that not everyone has that same baseline of knowledge to start from.

As for new members, I have to wonder about the advertising practices TR is taking to get exposure in order to bring new members in.

it seems for every one valid user that will stay around, there are ten trolls that are completely useless and only stay around as long as they can get some shock value out of people.

It really would be nice if TR would take note of some of the "posting tips for new users" guides that several people have done over the last year or so (including me). A list of the ideas should be in either a how-to or a FAQ section that all new users will have easy access to.

Some people get alienated just because they don't know HOW to properly post a question. they get ridiculed instead of helped because they just didn't KNOW simple net etique rules. But being uninformed is no excuse and if you make a stupid post, expect to have people point and laugh. :D

by sleepin'dawg

establish an individuals skill level. It would also give some indication of how serious the individual was in interfacing with others. This needn't be an overt item but something left running in the background and could be reviewed as the need arose. A certain number of complaints from regulars could serve as a cut off point for banning any truly objectionable individual. The only trouble I can foresee with this, would probably result in you an I being banned but more likely you, because everyone knows how mild mannered and what a swell guy that I am. LOL :^0

[b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

by jdclyde

It is hard, but I am trying to be more soft spoken, LIKE YOU ARE, in an effort to better interact with my peers. ;\

by charliespencer

Yes, you should be eating breakfast now. Since you're awake I'd like bangers and mash, and some breakfast for me too.

by deepsand

Did you really think that I would wade into this swamp with my own toes?

Nope, these are borrowed ones, so step where you like.

by apotheon

Lay off the crank, pal. It's making you paranoid.

I don't have any use for Usenet, but some people do. I don't have any use for World of Warcraft, but some people do. I don't have any use for VMS, but some people do. I don't have any use for onions or pickles, but some people do. I wouldn't ban the use of any of the above just because I don't use them. Likewise, you should not impose your preferences on the community at large and demand the removal of weblogs. Many people make use of them, both for posting and for reading.

by sleepin'dawg

you can always link to them anyway. If it's matter of streamlining and making TR more functional, why not drop the blogs and people can still link to them if they are so hot to trot for them.

What did people do before the blog capability was added to TR??? Sure many people use them but more don't. It's not a case of my preferences here but a case of whether CNet is going to keep TR running. The more complicated it is and the more demands on the infrastructure, the more CNet is going to be looking at its ROI.

Losing Q&A, points and blogs is just the tip of the iceberg. They seem to be having problems generating sufficient revenue to warrant maintaining the site; anything that reduces demand on resources, has to help. My preferences are meaningless next to that.

Everybody has a wish list of what they like; blogs just don't happen to be on mine but I don't particularly want to deny them to anyone; I just think that for now TR is trying to reorganize, streamline and reduce infrastructure loads to improve the bottom line. Look at CNet's other offerings and then take another look at TR.

TR is fairly resource hungry in comparison, it must exist within the regular server structure and it must yield comparable returns on its investment. I've had this feeling for quite sometime and have been wondering how long TR was going to be allowed to exist without a serious overhaul to its format and the sevices being offered.

You worry about something like blogs??? Some of the guys are maybe wondering in what division of CNet they will be working at next. Jay and Smorty are doing there best to give us all what we want but they are going to have to chop some features, whether we like it or not. If you're a blog fan, sorry about that but in my estimation less than 20% have a blog and a lot of them haven't been posted to for quite sometime despite the fact that that you can tie them to outside blogs. If you don't use 'em you're going to lose 'em. You shpould be able to understand that.

TR is not being overhauled just because Jay And Smorty woke up one morning and said,"What the hell, we've got nothing better to do today. Let's see how many people we can piss off by rearranging TR."

[b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

by jaqui

I mean that is as likely a reason for the changes as any..seeing how many people can be pissed off ;)

by charliespencer

I'm not opposed to web logs, but I don't see how they differ from discussions as they are implemented here at TR.

What advantages do web logs have over discussions, and how do they outweigh the disadvantages (linear comment structure makes conversations difficult to follow, inability to subscribe without RSS, etc.)
Perhaps I'm the only one who sees RSS as inferior to the e-mailed updates received when subscribed to a discussion.

by apotheon

Weblogs are about the people posting them and their interests. That's why a linear discussion format makes sense for a weblog: it keeps the focus on the original post more than the hierarchical, subthreading methods used for the discussions area. Whereas discussions need the hierarchical structure, weblogs are better off with a linear structure for comments.

I agree with you as regards subscription, by the way. RSS feeds are often painful to deal with, and RSS is kind of a heinous kludge that is so widely hailed only because there isn't really anything better to fill its niche. I'd much prefer the ability to subscribe to weblogs on a per-post and per-weblog basis over RSS feeds. That doesn't mean we should get rid of the feed, only that email alert subscriptions should be added to the weblogs.

In fact, that would be a major reason to keep weblogs separate from discussions: if you could get email subscriptions to a weblog as a whole, that would give you notifications when someone whose writing you like posts something to his weblog. That's not really as relevant to the general discussions area. After all, discussions are about provoking discussions in which everyone participates: weblogs are about one person posting an impression, description, or analysis of something, and getting feedback.

by deepsand

The only difference from our perspective is the placement of replies relative to the post to which one is replying.

Linearity [b]destroys[/b] reference points.

by hal 9000

I got my place listing quite easily and it's been shown as QL for quite some time now even though it should be QLD but the Field only supports 2 letters so I'm not complaining.

Unless of course QL is a US Sate that then that could be confusing for many people.

Col

by gadgetgirl

I know of only one UK address that has turned up on someones' profile, and that seems to have been a technical hitch at the same time we were all getting hit by lost pages.

I know both Neil and I tried not so long ago to re-enter the location side of our profiles, but to no avail. I think it must be the fact that they tend to work on part Zip codes.

But, hey, if they just let me put in "UK" up there, I'd be happy! North East UK would make me happier, and I'd be downright ecstatic if it would actually let me put in Newcastle, too!!

But, as long as it's not just picking on me, I'm content.....at least it proves that it's not just my dippy tart syndrome re-emerging again!!

:D

GG

by jaqui

The tagging has been happening enough to have a good list of tags. So lets have those sorted into groupings that make sense, like ms, open source, water cooler, servers, software applications, programming as group sections then you select a section from a list, and all tags from that section are available in a list. with the option of adding more individual tags afterwards [ like jdclyde's jdclyde tag ]

I have three tags in the all popular tags listing, oddly enough, humour and mandatory tagging sucks.
[ yup that is in the list..the mandatory tagging sucks tag. ]

While tags are meant to be user specific search keys, with the fact that we can use any tag kills a lot of associations of content, so by adding some structure it would improve the usability of tags.

editing to add:

with some structure impsed, tag search results would actually become more tuned to what you are looking for, rather than anything at all.
search for linux and get dozens of hits that are explicitly for windows xp... useless results on a linux search. why wade through results that are completely irrelevant? [ the biggest problem with the current tagging system. ]

as well, if the tags I have used are going to be used in a suggestions area of the workspace, why not have the ability to exclude specific tags from the suggestions?
I've very rarely used a ms or windows tag, yet 95% of suggestions in my workspace are about microsoft products. 95% for 1% of tag use?
50% of tag use is linux, yet that is only 2% of suggestions?

see why I would like to exclude all microsoft related tags from the suggestions? :D

by rob mekel

will eventualy run right off of the screen. For sure as some subthreads do go on for ever. Then we have to scroll up/down AND left/right. :(

Some of us braves will want to check howdeep endless will be :0 :D ;)

Rob

by jaqui

the db schema to support unlimited depth is very simple, only 3 fields in the row.
Discussion topic group id
Discussion id
Post id

with the fields set to an unsigned integer, that would allow for as large a number as can be stred in the field for each id..talk about getting unlimited depth of threading. ]:)

by rob mekel

and often it will make the [b]subthread[/b] run off the screen on the right-side. Ergo, scrolling from left to right AND up and down as result. That is what is bothering me.

It's not a technical prob, mere a use/format prob. That is ... to me, as I don't like scrolling left to right as for sure the up and down scrolling will be/is in every thread.

Rob

edited for format ([ b ][ /b ])

by jaqui

a conditional nav link like the next previous post, that allows for the posts to be viewed only 10 to 20 at a time, no matter how long the thread is.
it's not hard to have the script even show number of pages in the entire discussion so you can jump around a discussion...

~grumble~

I know I have a functoin to do the offset navigation around here somewhere.. I'll find it

editing to add:

here it is:
[pre]
$limit = 2;

// void nav ([int offset [, string this_script]])
// Print out navigational links for moving through entries in the guestbook.
// The first argument indicates where to start - the default value is zero,
// meaning the first (most recent) record. The second argument is the name
// of the script to use in the link - if empty, the value of the predefined
// global variable PHP_SELF will be used - this will be the name of the file
// being displayed to the user (i.e., if bla.php includes display.php, which
// includes bottom.php, which calls this function, PHP_SELF will be "bla.php").
function nav ($offset=0,$this_script="")
{
global $limit;
global $PHP_SELF;

if (empty($this_script)) { $this_script = $PHP_SELF; }
if (empty($offset)) { $offset = 0; }

// get the total number of entries in the guest book -
// we need this to know if we can go forward from where we are
$result = safe_query("select count(*) from guestbook");
list($total_rows) = mysql_fetch_array($result);

print "

\n";
if ($offset > 0)
{
// if we're not on the first record, we can always go backwards
print "<<Previous Entries   ";
}
if ($offset+$limit < $total_rows)
{
// offset + limit gives us the maximum record number
// that we could have displayed on this page. if it's
// less than the total number of entries, that means
// there are more entries to see, and we can go forward
print "Next Entries>>   ";
}
print "

\n";
}
[/pre]

by apotheon

Horizontal scrolling is one of the seven deadly sins of web development!

There are ways to avoid horizontal scrolling with unlimited thread depth, and they all involve how you design your presentation/view component of your web application. For instance, you could use a "thread depth threshhold" that sets a limit on how much depth is visible at any one time, with an indicator of how much more there is to see and links to get there. Another option is an interactive draggable interface like Google Maps uses. My favorite idea for how to implement it at TR is to use a collapsing subthread presentation, so that heading links for additional depth are collapsed to a single link for subthreads you're not currently perusing -- this could be accomplished using an AJAX interface to make it really whiz-bang, and degrade gracefully to a simple static markup page defined by server-side view scripts for clients that aren't allowing Javascript. It could even be done entirely with CSS if you like.

I'm sure there are more ways to get around horizontal scrolling while still allowing unlimited post hierarchy depth that have simply not yet occurred to me. It's a problem to be solved, not a matter of throwing up your hands and deciding it's impossible to do right.

by charliespencer

Now that you mention it, I'd prefer subscribing to a Contact. That way you know if that person posts to either a blog or a discussion.

"... discussions are about provoking discussions ... weblogs are about one person ... getting feedback."

I do feel the distinction between web log and discussion as you define it is a very fine line here at TR. Staffers have begun asking opinions of new features in their blogs, something I think clearly belongs in a discussion format.

I've always felt a web log was the tool to use when you think you're right and don't give a rodent's posterior what the other guys think :-)

by apotheon

That's funny. I completely forgot about the fact that Windows defaults to Redmond Egocentric Time. Debian GNU/Linux actually checks local time when it's installing. It's like magic.

by deepsand

As mentioned by apotheon, an elegant solution is to collapse sub-levels that are not being viewed into a single display line. Individual levels can be expanded or collapsed at will, just like folder views are in Windows Explorer.

This is the technique that is used by Outlook Express when viewing newsnet posts, as well as by RegEdit.

In fact, it is a very commonly used technique.

I see no reason why TR could not use it for Discussions.

by charliespencer

How does it know where I'm located? Does it work backwards from the ISP-assigned IP address? What if I install it stand-alone and don't connect it to anything?

Talk about Big Brother!

by apotheon

I haven't done a non-broadband install of Linux in years, so I couldn't tell you whether it works without a network connection. My guess is that it does not set to local time by default if you're not doing a network install. When doing a network install, though, I think it just gets the time from NTP or the software package repository servers.

by apotheon

GMT doesn't comply with BS Time's BS. For half the year, British time diverges from GMT. Tough titties.

by rob mekel

That's what it comes to.

I know there are way's to avoid horizontal-scrolling, what is a deadly sin in web-design. However you gonna mis the overview on who is saying what or reacting to whome, where.
You will have to open all the sub-threads. Or collapse the sub-thread to reviel where it is at in the original thread.

I don't think it will make discussions more clearer then they are now (may be 1 to 3 levels deeper :) (please :) ) if TR is gonna collapse sub-threads.

Rob

by deepsand

It [b]preserves[/b] context.

Linearity [b]destroys[/b] context.

Context is [b]necessary[/b] for understanding.

by sleepin'dawg

The world tells time based on GMT and Sandy as a superannuated swabjockey, you will remember that as time being referenced in ZULU.

Like the rest of the world the Brits have climbed aboard the daylight savings time bandwagon and with the rest of Europe, advanced their clocks one hour precisely one week ahead of North America. They now refer to their time as British Summer Time and aside from the wording it is now daylight savings time in their time zone which, the Prime Meridian runs through making GMT their standard time. This is an improvement on when the Brits, going their own way as usual, had their on peculiar version of daylight savings time wherein they advanced their clocks not [b]one[/b] hour but [b]two[/b] hours and called it something like Double Standard Time. Well the Brits can be somewhat eccentric, which is a polite way of saying crazy or daft. I'm going to catch it for that one.

It would be a pain in the ass to run the civilian world on ZULU but it would be nice if the world could adjust to using the 24 hour clock as does the military thus eliminating any confusion between times such as 8AM and 8PM.

Personally force of habit from my army days makes me use the 24 hour clock and their is never any confusion between my saying a meeting is at 0900 as opposed to 2100. Socially I may refer to 9AM or 9PM but if I forget to add "morning" or "evening" to the number, the 24 hour clock eliminates any ambiguity. One side comment here: Do not expect this to catch on with women. They're always going to be late no matter what method of time keeping you use.

[b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

by rob mekel

Actually GMT is a 24-clock (ZULU) time frame as it is + or -(1 to 12).
Mainland Europe does use, that is since WO-II due to the US/Canadian army, a 24-hour clock. That is in writing. In conversation there is still the 2 o'clock at night or afternoon stuff, what is, in my opinion, the better conversationly like then the two o'clock or fourteen hundred hours stuff.

Rob

ps do like your side comment :D :^0

by sleepin'dawg

That can bring a heap of trouble down on your head. I'm used to the European method of telling time but have found German and French [b]men[/b] refering to the 24 hour clock for expressing time while the women steadfastly stick with the 12 hour method. I don't know about the other nations like Holland,Spain or Italy but in those two, that's what I've found and have come to expect.

Using the 24 hour clock does eliminate any ambiguities but I will admit it takes some getting used to, especially on the conversational front and mking it especially difficult when talking with women. I don't know why but they seem to have a problem grasping the idea and running with it.

[b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

by rob mekel

I agree with you that nesting gives more clearness then linearity. That is untill the horizontal scrolling comes in. Then linearity is a good alternative to it.
And there the correct titling(???) becomes more important to keep context; ergo no titles in replies would be killing for context ergo understanding.

Rob

by gadgetgirl

Dawg.

Are you trying to imply something here?

Are you really trying to say that ALL we Brits are eccentric?

As for the 24 hour clock, you know fine well I can handle that (oh! DE!), it's just this damn time shifting bit that gets me. That's when the Einstein syndrome kicks in big style. [b] [i] I never know if you're in front or behind me.......[/b] [/i]

You didn't duck quick enough, my darling, I spotted the [duck] on the post instantly!!!

oh and ducks. Dawgs duck is now daddy duck! - three duckles and three ducklets arrived yesterday, MayDay. So - the three duckles are Mae (have to, really, don't we?) MayBe and Mebs, and naming the ducklets is your job.

Eccentric? Moi?

.............never............

:p

GG

by rob mekel

it weren't true. And I must say that, in my opinion, isn't the case as I do have that experience. And not to women not understanding a 24 hour clock, that is Dutch, nor Belgian, nor Norwegian, Swedish, German, Spanish, ... not even the Swiss don't understand it. The Brits however do have a problem with that, I don't know why but the ones I talk to do [i](oh my, am I bringing a rave on me?)[/i]

So will I be in your soliloquy trouble? ?:| ;)

Rob

by rob mekel

"Rob, I think it's safe to say you probably will be." to the latter or prior one or both :D

Mmm, better stop now. Before hitting real trouble. :D ;)

Rob

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