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Happy thanksgiving.
today, october 10 is Thanksgiving.
so, for all those who celebrate the destruction of millions of people's way of life, the mass slaughter of billions of living creature.
go ahead, celebrate the harvest from your stolen lands, watered with spilled blood.
by gralfus
So how is it different than the British taking the lands of the Scots and other Gaelic folks? Nearly all the present gov't systems around the world got there by squashing others and taking what they had. Throughout history, this has been the way things are. Only in recent history have the world powers questioned themselves seriously about conquest. Our approach with the American Indians was also one of conquest. They lost, we have the land. Now they have casinos and some are becoming millionaires.
We also kill and eat lots of other creatures to stay alive. We even have cooking shows on TV that "glorify" the carcasses. Then again, there are lots of other carnivores and bugs that kill and eat the creatures around them. So what?
Life goes on, but it rarely stays the same for long. It is not reasonable to assume that our culture, sucessful as it is, will remain viable and in control. Those who overthrow us may not even be technologically advanced, just lucky. The face of the world will change as a result, but that is the way of things. The Persians, Assyrians, Egyptians, Romans, Greeks, etc, all held world power at one time. Now they don't. We shouldn't assume that we will continue to lead the pack, despite our current freedoms, culture, and technology.
'So how is it different than the British taking the lands of the Scots and other Gaelic folks? '
Simple - we dont celebrate it!
by jdclyde
"Thanks Giving" is not a celebration of the overthrow of the "Indian" nations.
While it is funny and distorted as to what our part really was in the hunting and gathering, it is MEANT to have people stop and look around themselves. To be happy with what you have, instead of always wishing for what you don't have.
As for feeling sorry for the "poor Indian", the bleeding hearts often neglect that they got where they were primarily by warring with other tribes as many were NOT peaceful farmers.
"We" did to them what they did to the people before them.
I personally will completely enjoy my turkey dinner, with mashed potatos, corn, dressing and pie!
by zlitocook
You need to review history, stop reading the stuff you are reading and look at what is going on now! Please reduce in take of Caffeine and walk in the shoes of other people. This has been going on for well, for ever. Look at the people who blow them selfs up with babies and women who have nothing to do woith the problem. Will this fix the problem? No it just gives the people who plan those things a big laugh because they do not blow them selfs up!
You need to research this in more detail and please ask if you need more info.
I would be happy to help you, I am more then half indian and would be happy to help you find reasions to help others and help your self!
by puppybreath
by jrod86
My grandfather grew up on a reservation and worked for years to get himself off of it. Why not take on a better issue such as obesity or something more relevant. Or why not mention Christmas, a holiday that is meant to celebrate the life of a guy that was probably born in June, but the Christians didn't want the Romans 180 day orgy to suck in there followers and decided to plant their holiest of days right in the middle of it...
How about we make a decision to celebrate the ideals behind these holidays rather than remembering the pain that the events brought?
As I was reading puppybreath's posting, Lee Greenwood's "Proud to be an American" came on the radio.
jaqui, I'm so glad you're able to post what you want without fear of government reprisal. That's what we'll be celebrating down here in six or seven weeks.
I've got no control over what others did in the past, and feeling guilty about their actions will not accomplish anything. If you'd like to suggest constructive ways to resolve the problems you perceive, please let us know what they are.
by itgirli
up there you can enjoy your thanksgiving, but we still have a month and two weeks to go. I personally will be celebrating the mass slaughter of potatoes, as my family eats a lot of them. I myself will not be wringing the turkey's neck, but maybe the neck's of annoying family members in keeping with the tradition of slaughter.
Many happy holidays to you and yours and keep up that warm and toasty feeling you so expressed.
by john.a.wills
by m_a_r_k
There have been a few times that I've written something here and later become embarrassed about it. I know. It's hard to believe. Generally it is related to being overly harsh toward another TR member. Although I still feel bad about some of my posts I realize that other TR members have made similarly regretable posts. Some of Jaqui's recent contributions have helped me to put my own mistakes into perspective. Maybe I'm not such a bad fellow after all. So thank you Jaqui for embarrassing yourself so badly that you have made me feel better about myself. :D
(hahahahahahahahahahahahaha...)
Don't worry. Since many of us are in the same boat we'll still be your buddies when you come to your senses.
by dc guy
I understand how you feel.
In the U.S. we have a neat way of avoiding conundrums like this: As a people we have absolutely no sense of history. Anything that happened before our grandparents were alive, meaning we never heard about it first-hand, is irrelevant. Most of us never even heard of it all, especially if we went to school any time since about 1964.
No guilt, no angst, no problem!
Of course that makes us look incredibly stupid when we get a leader who combines our national ignorance with his own personal hubris. Thinks he can stomp into the Middle East in his cowboy boots and resolve conflicts that are older than our COUNTRY? People who had been killing each other for a thousand years or more before his ancestors started giving the Indians smallpox?
We tell the Palestinians that the Israelis have first claim to the land because after all it is their ancestral home and we have to honor that... and the Palestinians can tell us, "Okay Mister Cowboy, then you have to give Arizona back to the Navajo."
No wait, I've thought some more about it and I was wrong. Possession is nine points of the law, that's an abiding principle of our legal system. The Palestinians are there, it's not fair to take the land away from them... and the Israelis walk over and say, "Okay Dude, in that case you have to give Arizona back to MEXICO."
We should stay out of things we're culturally incapable of understanding.
The people who call themselves Britons are actually Anglo-Saxons. Their ancestors stole the land from the true Britons, whose descendants only survive in Wales, Cornwall, and Brittany. But then of course the Britons and other Celtic people stole the British Isles from the people who were already living there, the ones who built Stonehenge.
And who knows how many previous waves of migration wiped out other cultures on "Albion"? Humans have been building seaworthy boats for at least 40,000 years.
by m_a_r_k
Uh...Jaqui is a she?? :O Hell, I've always thought "Jaqui" is short for Jacques and that he/she/it is a he. Jaqui, reveal yourself! What are you? I wish we'd have to denote our gender in our profile. These freakin' un-Englishified names. Why can't everyone have regular names like Tom, Sue or M_a_r_k? Next subject, for DC Dude....
[i]"We tell the Palestinians that the Israelis have first claim to the land because after all it is their ancestral home"[/i]
This isn't the US' rule. This was a United Nations mandate sometime around 1947 AD. It's just that no other country in the world is man enough to stand behind what the UN says. We got ourselves in the middle of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict because our trustworthy friends in Paris backed out on Israel days before the Six-Day War in 1967. At that time Israel was militarily weak. Or so everyone thought until they kicked the crap out of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq in a mere six days. After the French and the Brits left Israel high and dry, the US had to step as peace-broker and power-player and we've been stuck in the middle of it ever since.
That's what the doctor said when Jaqui was born. Jacqui is a male, married, children, etc.
Like a boy named Sue, except this one is named Jacqueline. :D Ha ha. Jacqueline. How do I manage to be so hilarious? It's a gift. Come to think of it I hope that isn't really his name.
Actually I made the same mistake about Jaqui's gender when I first started reading TR.
by john.a.wills
by jamesrl
In the Suez Crisis(1957), Egypt was in the process of nationalizing the canal that Britain had built and France had supported. Britain and France, with Isreal's active military support, invaded the canal zone. The US intervened (through its dominance of the UN, and through economic threats to a vulnerable Britain)and forced Britain and France to withdraw.
So if you claim that Britain and France left Isreal high and dry, you should consider that the US forced its way into that situation by sidelining Britain and France. If there was a vacuum that the US fell into, it was one of their own creation.
James
by m_a_r_k
by john.a.wills
by dmambo
And Happy Columbus Day to you.
BTW, my ancestors were busy harvesting grapes in Italy and doing whatever Swedes do in Sweden while Americans 5 or 6 generations ago were out stealing the land. We just rode in on the coattails and enjoyed the spoils, so I'm innocent - innocent I tell ya.
DMambo wrote:
"...doing whatever Swedes do.."
......
I believe the Swedes were conquering the Finnish and the Estonians. Got them involved in a real big war with Russia and Peter the Great.
by dmambo
I hereby formally apologize for whatever part my relatives had in the destruction of Greenland and Iceland before about 1895. The Finns, however, can kiss my butt!!!
( ;) )
by jdclyde
Most of my relatives came over within the last century as well.
Lets just leave it as "blameless" in this endevor, thus feel as much to blame as for Rome in its days of conquest. None.
by john.a.wills
by surflover
Isn't Switzerland the only country in the world not created by conquest?
My father's ancestors were Swiss engineers who immigrated to Canada in the late 1800's... and migrated to the US around 1900... My mother's ancestors were English Canadian Furtraders who came to the US around the same time and although my parents and I were born in the US... I don't feel guilty for celbrating the bountiful gifts that God provided the settlers allowing them to survive the hrash winter the experienced WITH the indians who were their friends... Thanksgiving is just what it's name implies...
We (Americans) didn't begin the genocide of the native American Indians until our government had grown sufficiently large to act without the direct consent of the people... quite a while after the tradition of Thanksgiving was established.
But you certainly know you American holidays :^O
by jamesrl
Norway was actually at one time part of Sweden, who was not always a neutral country. The wars between Sweden and Russia would fill many history books. But Norway peacefully broke away from Sweden in the 1800s.
As to the American Indians, I knew alot of the history, and Spielbergs latest "Into the West" confirms that things were relatively peaceful between the tribes and the white fur traders until a) the massive migrations from the east, b) the mass slaughter of the buffalo and c)the endless number of broken treaties from the US feds. Sitting Bull, Red Cloud, Crazy Horse all had made peace and signed treaties, all of which were broken, before they made war on the settlers.
Canada had much fewer problems as our western boom happened decades later. The Riel rebellion was a minor skirmish and we never had anything on the scale of Little Big Horn or as horrific as Wounded Knee. But at the end of the day, though they generally had better conditions, our natives like Americans were forced onto reservations and denied their traditional way of life.
During the American revolution and the War of 1812, many tribes, particularly the Iroquois were allies of the British against the Americans, and they were responsible for keep Canada British.
In 1812, many of the western tribes formed an alliance and were lead by Tecumseh. This is the force that scared the defenders of Fort Detroit into surrender. They were promised upper Michigan (hi JD) but that promise died when Tecumseh was killed and the great Indian alliance faded away.
I am always curious about how Tecumseh became an American folk hero when he fought against the US. In one of those ironic twists, American school kids probably are more familiar with the name that Canadians.
James
by john.a.wills
"This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker and argue over who killed who!"
(a little quoting from Monty Python) :-)
by surflover
by itgirli
it's actually, "Go away or I shall taunt you a second time."
"your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries"
by jdclyde
three days since I have seen that movie!
Now that I have my boys ADDICTED to python, I will be getting the NEW BOX SET that is coming out of ALL of the python. Suppose to be between $140 and $200 US.
I can't wait!
"What are you going to do, bleed on me?"
Anybody else notice how jaqui tossed out this little grenade but hasn't followed up? If he didn't want to discuss it, why didn't he blog it?
by itgirli
by surflover
It was a rather ill thought post in the first place... but anyone who likes Thanksgiving with the settling of America and the genocide like goernment policy towards the native Americans and some strange perspective on murdering turkeys, doesn't know much about history in the first place (and remember, there was no one but indians in HIS country before it was settled as well)
:^O
by jck
Canada is no better...they treated their natives no better and ran them off their lands and shunned their culture out of "civilised" Canadian society. Here's a website that documents it all.
http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/ch/rcap/sg/sgmm_e.html
Happy Thanksgiving, hok-si (that's Chickasaw... I'll let you go find the translation ;) )
by jamesrl
As far back as the American revolution, there were tribes living in America, who chose the British over the Americans, and after the revolution they moved north to Canada.
What happened after the American civil war, with the "war" against the natives, didn't happen in Canada. The Riel Rebellion (metis were the product of marriages between the natives and french fur traders) was brief. The settlement of the Canadian West was relatively peaceful.
While the record isn't perfect, Canada was generally better at keeping its treaty obligations. There were occasions where the US federal government was starving natives on the plains reservations, and those natives came north to Canada, where they were fed.
Sitting Bull was well treated in Canada - he came in peace and promised to be peaceable.
http://www.mysteriesofcanada.com/Saskatchewan/sitting_bull.htm
I would agree that the Indian Act and the residential schools were flawed endevours - but frankly the ideas for the residential schools came from America.
I grew up near the largest reserve in Canada, went to school with many natives. My uncle taught high school across the arctic for 15 years.
I'm not proud of how Canada treated the native peoples, but the record isn't as bad as America's record.
James
by m_a_r_k
by jdclyde
I love that.
If we compare ourselves to someone else, we don't seem as bad?
Too funny.
by john.a.wills
by puppybreath
by jdclyde
to make yourself look grand by knocking someone else down than to actually be grand in the first place?
Now here is a biscuit for that breath, puppy! :D
by surflover
Wandering in and nicking our Solar Temple! We sweat blood building Stonehenge and we'd only had the damn thing for 4,000 years - loads of use left in it - before the damned Druids claimed it as theirs.
Still, at least the Romans sorted [b]them[/b] out! Though we now get the "modern" Druids acting like right pratts during the summer solstice at Stonehenge.
Nice people, you Druids. The Druids' idea of a good night out was to staple the belly-button of an unbeliever to the sacred oak tree and whip him around it until his intestines had been pulled out...
by puppybreath
So, how did the Druids cope with the Spaceballs stealing all the air from planet Druidia? Good thing Lonestar (who used the Schwartz, taught to him by Yogurt), Barf, and Princess Vespa were able to defeat the Spaceballs and return your air.
"Your Schwartz is as big as mine!!" - Dark Helmet
:-)
by jdclyde
had a wild hair up his a$$ lately, not sure exactly what has set it off.
Maybe he will explain at the end of the firestarter series he is setting off?
Oh yeah you RACIST surflover! They are NOT "Indians", but "Native Americans"! (j/k) Although technically so is EVERYONE who was born in one of the many Americas. :D
by surflover
I haven't been called a racist in a long time... Come to think of it... I thin this is a first... I dated a black girl when I was in HS in Detroit... which at the time, could've cost me my life :-)...
but at the time I never thought about it... She was REALLY Hot ;-)... Halle Berry has nothing on her :-)
by surflover
by surflover
I will feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals and fruit bats.
Lot better than last year, when I had spam sausage spam spam bacon spam tomato and spam.
by itgirli
by jdclyde
you didn't try to pick "him" up? :O
"Your not a sheila!" (as he grabs the package)
by tonythetiger
by jdclyde
you can use it as a center piece! After all, you don't want to waste part of it!
If we weren't suppose to eat animals, they wouldn't be made of meat!
by jamesrl
According to this official website, Norway was made part of Sweden in 1814, having been taken away from Denmark as a result of the Napoleonic wars.
http://www.norway.org/1905-2005/separation/
In 1905, Norway peacefully separated from Sweden and they chose the son of a Danish King to become King of Norway.
James
by itgirli
by jdclyde
RUN AWAY, RUN AWAY!
"You made me soil myself for nothing!"
by surflover
by puppybreath
by jdclyde
although you HAVE to say it twice.
I just recently bought the "box set" and it comes with the entire script. It is as funny to just sit and read as to watch the show.
And now that my twin boys are addicted to it, they FINALLY understand and "get it" when I have been saying monty quotes as long as they can remember. They finally realize just how funny the crazy old man is! :D
Oh yeah, now THEY are quoting it is well. So cool to hear from 13 year olds!
http://www.buycostumes.com/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=19104&PCatID=&ccatid=
Check this costume out! Right on theme. B-)
Are you having to evacuate because of Wilma? Or is it a Killer Rabbit this time?
Remember, if you get short on supplies, you can eat Sir Robin's minstrels.
by itgirli
by itgirli
by jdclyde
if he found out his firestater post turned into the discussing or religious artifacts, followed by a hearty amen? :^O
"I did it again"
by surflover
I think we should (a bit at a time, taking turns), recite the grail from beginning to end... to show how "relevant" his original was to begin with...
Or maybe I'll start another post at the beginning, and see who chimes in :^O
PS: Great minds think alike... I posted my "run away" to girlies post before I read yours...
by jamesrl
If it gets to the point where people are calling each other Nazis, end the discussion.
James
by jdclyde
does that include when wingnuts do the same thing to compare Bush to Hitler? Or is that an exception around here?
It does work to completely remove all credibility for any and everything else they will say, but that doesn't seem to stop them? It also shows people with no knowledge of history.
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