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by maxwell edison

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I've been travelling quite a bit lately, and have thought a lot about it. There are only a few options.

1. Screen nobody. (Already deemed a bad idea.)

2. Screen everybody. (Obviously very intrusive and inconvenient, oftentimes down-right insulting.)

3. Profile those who will be screened. Neil's mum, for example, might always be waved on; but that 25 year old "Arab looking" guy would always be pulled over. Yep, that smacks of being unfair, and will result in charges of racism (baseless charges, most likely), but the only other options are one and two. Or is there another option?

4. Okay, another option that I've been thinking of. Create some sort of pre-screening process. Let Neil, his mum, my mum (yes, I really DO have one), and others who are not homicidal terrorists, go through some sort of process only once, the first time, and be issued some sort of documentation that allows them to bypass the security process. If I owned a private airline, for example, couldn't I demand that all of my customers agree to background checks and such to get on my list, but once approved, it's clear sailing to get on-board? There are private clubs, for example, that require "membership" cards. Why not airlines? Is flying on a private airline a right that must be extended to anyone and everyone on demand? I think not. Personally speaking, I'd have no problem if I had to become a "United Airlines member" before I could fly on their airplanes. And practically speaking, most major airlines could even share memberships. Once you're a "member" of one, you could gain "security clearance free" access to many others. (Just like my health club membership will get me into many others clubs.)

Possible objection: People might suggest that since the airlines are SO competitive and SO consumer-driven, that they would hesitate to turn away customers who aren't members. However, on the other hand, customers just might flock to such airlines, even to the point of paying more for the privilege.

Another possible objection: We actually have airport screening, not airline screening. Well, since most airports (at least the major ones) are designed with multiple concourses, there could be a redesign of how those are actually managed.

There has to be a way better than what's being done right now.

P.S. Thank you, Neil, for the idea that compelled me to start this discussion. I intended to post it as an answer to this message .....

https://www.techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=8&threadID=196088&messageID=2034845

...... but I thought it might make an interesting discussion itself.

Edited to add the following:

And actually, I think this might even be an issue that transcends political divides!

39 replies

by Member 25348569

was wearing paper-thin slip-ons that could not have concealed a paper-clip whereas I - a shifty, glowering sort if ever there was - was wearing size twelves that would easily have hidden a Panzer Division. I was waved through.

I like your idea. It will be easier to apply when we all have our biometric passports and maybe we can get stamped as "OK. Not an insurgent". At the moment, I believe, we poor foreigners have our innnermost secrets (including credit card numbers) provided to your government every time we fly in.

I will answer with a little more though later as I actually have to do some work today as our SAN has been bouncing up and down since the weekend when our building power supply overheated.

Neil :D

p.s. You [b]are[/b] allowed to refer to your mother as "mom". I will understand.

by old guy

are supposed to have a little common sense about them. Hmmm, is that possible? ?:|

by tig2

A friend of mine was a senior recruiter after 9/11 charged with hiring additional screeners. As I recall, she said she didn't get much to work with- the pay and hours were just not terribly attractive.

Until there is some level of standardisation in screening proceedure, the problem will continue and worsen. The requirements when I fly our of Chicago are different from the standards in Minneapolis which are different from LA.

As a woman, I am always required to remove my shoes whether they are boots or sandals, I am ALWAYS wanded- the wand picks up the metal in my bra. While that is going on, my handbag- containing my ID, cash, etc- has been passed through the scanner and is laying on the end of the machine- where ANYONE can pick it up.

ARRRGH!

If I can, I don't fly. Not always an option. When I do fly I try to reduce the aggravation. Unfortunately, there is a limit to what I can do- there is no one set of requirements to manage to.

by old guy

However, how many "sleepers" would be able to get in on this membership type? I mean I could certainly bide my time if that is what I had in mind.

I do think the concept is good but I don't know how feasible it would be. Besides, as the "Baby Boomers" are aging now you don't really know how many little old ladies really are packing. :)

by oz_media

Max, you shocke dthe hel outr of me by referring to you rmum as mUm and not mOm. Is it regional? Many Americans say mOm, as do many Canadians, and others mUm? I see mUm from towns with more of a British population here (Victoria for example) bu for the most part, canadian's spel it with an O.

Sorry, just a little oddments that caught my eye.

As for screening, they use a form of 'screening' for British Football matches, which I am sure they have a similar system for airports. People are on camera al teh time and watched/profiled as they walk through the parking lot, stadium etc.

Now this works for known offenders but I am sure is far less effective for those not known.

Here's what played my head a couple of flights ago.

I had a Swiss Army knife, the little keychain one, that i had found camping a while back. It was a good find so I had it on my keyring for opening boxes, emergency fingernail trims etc.

They recently passed legislation allowing small pocket knives to be carried on flights, so when I was headed to Eastern Canada I left it on my keyring. The security spotted it instantly and said to remove it and donate it to the airports 'buckets of neat stuff collected each day'.

I obviously agreed without hesitation and gave up th eknife, while doing so I asked; 'Didn't they just pass a new law allowing these on airplanes onw?" but was told, ONLY on international flights, not domestic.....???Whaaaat?

I can bring a knife into teh country, I can fly to the USA with one, but not from Vancouver to Toronto, Montreal or even Calgary?!?

I don't know what is worse, the Canadians for banning these little Weapons of No Destruction or the USA for allowing them on International flights? I think it's a Canadian restriction and an American allowance butting heads that makes it odd, but really it doesn't make much sense, does it?

by oz_media

You were simply patrnizing Neil (just kidding).

Not too much glue for Oz afterall, I thought I was going mad, seeing an American type 'mum'. !

by gralfus

The no-fly list is simply a bunch of names of people who may somehow be connected to terrorists. It is regularly used to stop babies, Catholic nuns, US Congressmen, and other nasties from boarding planes. No known terrorists have ever been stopped by it. But we keep it anyway, just in case.

by oz_media

They had to stop a few nuns, they can't tell the difference between a habit and a burqa. They generally just stop anyone without a camouflage cap on and mirrored aviation shades, driving an SUV with a rebel licence plate.

by mjd420nova

With the technology today, anyone can buy counterfeit documents that will allow them to walk thru any security setup without fear of being detained. Yes, even prescreened and approved terrorists would have a field day. With the openborders that we have, they can and will get into this country regardless of any type of security used at the airports. This only prevents the hijacking of airplanes, but doesn't stop the infiltration of those bent on making themselves a bomb and getting close to masses of people. I think the biggest thing we can do is secure the borders, using fences, UAV's and if neccesary, a new passport procedure. Once the borders are closed, then set up an amnesty program and document the immigrants. Line them up, photograph them and any distinquishing features(tattoos), fingerprint them, and do a background check. Kick out those we don't want and sign the rest up with SSN's and get them paying into the system they have been sucking from for so long. If you don't have the proper papers, out you go. Don't isssue an amnesty until the borders are secure or there'll be the biggest rush in history to get into this country.

by Member 25348569

is that quite often we don't know where to send them back to. It's quite common for individuals and whole families to arrive at Heathrow airport and burn their passports. They hang around a bit before going through Immigration so that there is sufficient uncertainty about what plane they came in on.

You will have the same problem. I'm sure that Mexico will be rightly p:ssed if you dump a couple of thousand Cubans over the border.

by jamesrl

I travel a fair amount, both domestically and to the US. Been doing it for a decade or so.

Last trip I was in Birmingham, and my friends at Homeland Security singled me out for special attention. The screener at the front of the line dropped my ID (Ontario drivers license) and I didn't bend down to pick it up for her because I was balancing my bags - computer bag, suitcase and coat. I think she expected me to pick it up even though she dropped it behind her.

So I went to the special line. There I had to take off my shoes and my belt, untuck my shirt, was patted down very thoroughly, and my entire luggage was picked apart. All this in full view of those waiting to go through the metal detector/Xray line. I had to sit and wait for the analysis too be done on my luggages - they used a wand with a cloth on it to check for explosives residue, and they had to put it in a machine to wait for the results.

Now I don't look like a terrorist (who does?). I am always polite, never pushy at security - they have a job to do. I don't even mind unbuckling my belt and taking off my shoes as often as I do at many airports (Toronto especially). I'd would be happier if they would look up my name on a database somewhere.

But I wonder about the efficacy of random checks. Clearly they made sure I didn't get on the plane with anything, but what about the 120 others.

I'd be happy to do whatever paperwork to get in to the club. I have a top level security clearance from CSIS (the Canadian CIA).

James

by oz_media

Last year, I needed to renew my immigration papers (now a secured card) they took so much info, had SO much screening and SO many restrictions it was a real circus to get it and it took nearly 4 months for screenming and approval. Just picking it up was an issue, regardless of what ID I held, my mother had to go with me and also be fingerprinted etc. just to pick up teh finished cared, I would have thought the card itself would have idenified me pretty well.

The card itself is a miracle in card security (I also work in the security card and secured ID field). The card has my name, birthdate, sin# and address on it. This is also printed on AND embedded in the mag stripe, printed on the photo itself, raised print in varying sizes scrolled across like handwriting, there is a mirror image that only shows with a blacklight...and a mirror, and it is repeated everywhere, in raised print, resized print, miniature print, mirror print it is just so reduncant and has so many overlapping security features it would be virtually impossible to recreate with an over the counter ID card printer. It was from a custom designed card printer that ONLY the immigration folk are allowed to order and all are tacked. Much like a high-end colour laser copier is, but even moreso.

AMAZING security, no biometrics, but a couple of years selling various biometric security systems shows you just how esily it can be fooled/foiled.

I can travel anywhere with no problems at all, except the USA, I am taken aside, treated like a Mexican fence jumper. Retina scans, fingerprints, photos, 20 questions and then a card to state that I am not here to harm The President I am not transporting any WMD or other biological arms, bombs etc. Tht get's me a 60 day Visa anyway, well that and $6.00 US for thier troubles. they are also the biggest bunch of a**holes you have ever dealt with, but you just nee dto smile and thank them and wait for your screenign to finish. Meanwhile, a bus load of 'Iraqi insurgent lookalikes' can cross without any issues as they are going to pick berries just south of the border. Everyone looks the same or similar, so ID's can be shared or passed on as needed.

It was like the movie Airplane, where they are hassling an old lady (a nun I believe) while Palestinians are walking by with rocket launchers and granades in the background.

Oh well, paranioa, security, whatever makes you feel safe I suppose. Unfortunately they STILL dont feel safe even with all the added BS. What are they planning to do about the Al-Qaida sects residing IN America or Canada? They just don't talk about those guys, people would flip if they knew terrorist cells existed within their own borders even though they are blowing up a country half way around the world.

Shhhh, lets just pretend they can't get into the country and forget the fact that they are already IN teh country.

by mjwx

Does Canada really track how many sins you?ve committed. I'm sure you would have put the kids of three sin analysts through collage OZ.

Correct me if I am wrong but to get into Canada all I have to do is walk north from Michigan.

by oz_media

While I think your having a laff, you may not be familiar wit teh SIN number. Social Insurance Number, everything you ever do is tracked back to a SIN number, work, taxes, cetizenship etc.

YEs, I had a long bout with many sins over quite a few years. But I havesince cleaned my act up quite a bit, well I got older anyway. Funny enough though,I saw more SINS committed by mainstream rock acts I worked with than the hardest heavy metal bands. It's all sterotypes and images, but I feel much better now. :)

Canada, yes walk north, but unlike the Mexico/USA border, you'll have to have proper documentation in order to enter the coutry, we don't have a big fence you can cheat.

I know Americans who have had such a very hard time visiting Canada, due to lack of documentation. In most cases it's easier to just stay home, and Canadians don't like crowds anyway. We enjoy our endless unfettered terrain, it's bad enough that you log and now own most of our old growth/now new growth forests.

by jdmercha

I was on a contract job in NY and decided to go to Canada for the weekend. I happend to be sharing a rental car with a coworker. He flew home that weekend so I went up to Canada on my own. Well, they stopped me at the border to check things out.

Problem #1
The car had NY plates but my drivers license was from NJ. They did a quick search and found the rental agreement in the glove box.

Problem #2
The car was rented to my coworker who's name is obvioulsy spanish in origin. He was from the Dominican Republic. And I, being of French descent did not look anything like a Juan. So they looked further.

Problem #3
We had gotten our paychecks earlier that day. Juan wanted to cash his check at a local bank, but didn't know where to find one. One of our local coworkers drew a map to the bank for him. So he grabbed his lunch at noon time and went off to cash his check. For some reason he did not finish his lunch and left his half-eaten sandwich in a brown paper bag in the trunk. And left the map to the bank right next to it.

Well the Canandian border guard found the map to the bank and the brown paper bag. He looked ready to slap the cuffs on me right then and there. They looked closer at the wheel wells, under the seats and the carpeting. They spent an hour going through the car before they finally bought my story and let me in.

by oz_media

That's to be expected though, as you duly noted the little clues yourself.

Gotta love them bad days.

I was heading to the border for gas with a friend, his car, just when we were about 10' from the booth, he jumped into the back (Volvo sedan) and curled up on the floor. I just reacted and jumped in the drivers seat and stoped the damn car before we hit something.

I am sure the look on my face was as stunned as the guard who had seen the whole 'switcheroo' take place. I pulled up with a smile and he asked WHO was on th efloor in back. It had mirroed tinted windows that you could still see shapes through and my friend thought he was invisible (I say 'friend' very loosely).

So not wanting to appear to be as dense myself, I looked back and say 'Hey man, what the f**k are you doing?!?!"

As it turns out, he had gone for gas a week earlier, and when returning he said he had nothing to declare, they asked him to pull in for inspection and he just drove home. When he had arrived home, lo and behold, the mounties were waiting for him (no, not in a red serge and on horseback). They too had POLITELY asked him to voluntarily go back for inspection and clearance.

He never did, his excuse "I was too tired and didn't want to waste gas."

Needless to say, we didn't go across the line that night. For some odd reason nothing ever came of it nor his border hopping. I don't think we would have been afforded the same luxury these days though.

by jdmercha

Option 4 already exists. It it more commonly known as a private jet. Many private jets are shared by a group of members. So if you can afford about $2mil per year, you can be a member too.

by mjwx

most of whom would be as smart as or smarter than you or I would have made a career out of airport security solutions. But security is a question that transcends political and cultural divides.

Well here's what I think.

1. We need to screen everybody. We already do with metal detectors and bag checks. Here in Australia security is only one of our major customs concerns. The other is quarantine, we have more to fear from foreign pests and diseases than from terrorists because these turn up every day. Customs regularly finds biological items (fruit, vegetables, meat, plants and the like) that can carry a new pest that is foreign to our ecosystem and can cause great damage to wildlife and agriculture alike, as well as stopping people with human diseases (H5N1 bird flu for example). So the current level of examination at least is necessary.

2. Racial profiling. I don?t like it but it does help identify those who have a greater potential to cause damage. Racial profiling only works when combined with background checks. I don?t like racial profiling but it seems to be to be a necessary evil.

3. Any kind of "get out of jail free" card will be forged. We are yet to develop a form of identification that can not be copied or in any other way subverted. even if it proves difficult to copy those who have an interest in selling forged documents (stereotypically the mafia) will either steal or get fake ID's entered into the system rendering such a system flawed and leaving flights open to attack.

Just remember that airport/airplane security has been an issue long before 9/11. Terrorism's favourite weapon has long been in the air, remember Lockerby back in 74.

by stephencairns

The only problem i see with option 4 is that you are only as good as your last security check.

Over the years how many people with high security passes have turned out to be spies?

I think that the only true security measure that I've heard of being added to airport security is locking the cabin door.
Just after 9 11, I was in Sydney airport. Just before check in they had an armed security guard hand checking passports. Was this so the terrorist would be scared away? I mean having their passport checked 3 times rather than just twice must be terrifying.

One of the other security measures that have been added is giving you a plastic knife and fork rather than the usual blunt metal ones. You can still of course get your glass and handy fist sized wine bottle with your meal.

Most of these measures are there only to reassure you that its safe to fly.

"Locks are for keeping Honest people out"

by mjwx

but thanks for explaining it. It's like your TFN (Tax File Number) over here.

I thought showing papers to get into Canada from the south was voluntary but I guess my info is out of date (or just wrong in the first place).

What if I swim across the great lakes?

If making bad music was a sin, damn few of those mainstream music acts would be innocent.

:)

by oz_media

In fact I was JUST watchign som evideo of the VH1 honour Rocks show. They honoured several pioneers of hard rock, Judas Priest, Kiss, Queen, Def Leppard. Before each OLD act (sorry, they all still tour), they had some new rock act do a medley. They had the clowns from Greenday do a Judas Priest medley, they couldn't play the music, the vocalist was absolutely hideous, no tone or projection at all, and he couldn't even hit the same notes the 55 year old Rob Halford could. Priest took the stage and literally tore it up, there was ssuch a MASSIVE difference in showmanship, musicianship and talent it wasn't even remotely comparable.

The new US mainstream is 110% created, designed and manufactured by four main companies in teh USA. There is no hope for a talented band that does not fit the mold to make it, that;s what I do. I get European record deals for north americans bands struggling to be found in the wrong marketplace.

The SIN I was referring to was the sex drugs and backstage partying. The bands assumed to be the most rowdy and wild are actually usually teh bands that do NO drugs, strictly enforced within the band, they are al married with grown children, they are too old to party so it's usually a quick handshake and off to the hotel for a good nights sleep.

That's the sin I was referring to, it used to be wild but as they have grown it has really mellowed out.

by jamesrl

I wonder if his SIN number is longer than mine?

For all of my life, and I think I am as old as Oz, you have needed papers on both sides of the border. But the border guards have had the option in the past of not asking for them. And you didn't/don't (yet) need a passport, just a birth certificate/citizenship card to establish citizenship and something like a drivers license or other photo ID to establish your residence.

Now while Oz says will always be stopped, truth is the border is very long. There are villages on the border where no one stops anyone, and they expect you to check in. Same idea with boating on the great lakes, you are expected to stop in at the local office, but it doesn't always happen. There could never be enough boats to monitor all the traffic. Thats how all the illegal cigarettes come into Canada - by boat.

By the way you ahve to be a pretty good athlete to swim across any of the lakes....it is 32 miles at the common point to cross at Toronto, which is wider than the narrow part of the English Channel (Dover/Calais). We can't see across without binoculars unless you go up the CN Tower.

James

by mjwx

I shouldnt imagine there would be any great tidal forces as opposed to the english channel which should even up the competition a bit.

And theres always the kayak.

by oz_media

you will always need SOME form of ID, it used to be that a drivers licence was cool, even for myself.

As for being as OLD as me, HA!!!
Don't you mean as YOUNG as me?

by x-marcap

Pity the terrorist with a box cutter on a flight with 10 old guys loaded up with .32 caliber glasers. All that is required is pass the eye test, and the shooting test 250 or better.

Man would that make flights safer...

by tig2

How about one old broad that shoots every month? And I personally prefer the Taurus 85 CH in stainless (.38 cal) but the Glasers are a MUST HAVE. Don't want to be putting holes in anything but the target after all...

by x-marcap

I personally think all adults should be required to carry a gun at all times. Those who go unarmed can't vote. Those who carry guns can vote, and take participation in the body politic.

Bring back duels, legally. ;-)

The society would become downright polite. If you'd be packing heat, the guy who gives you the finger in traffic would either be careful, or he'd eventually find someone who was faster on the draw...

I am very partial to 1911A1s. My daughter and sons go shooting about that often, or perhaps a bit more.

I specified the .32 because they are about the smallest useable round. I'd prefer .457 but some people would complain of hearing damage. You'd save their lives and they'd sue you for deafening them...

by mjwx

MAD: Mutual Assured Destruction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction

In a MAD enviroment you are only as safe as the craziest person wants you to be. because as soon as one person opens up they all open up and I dont trust the acuracy of 200 odd shooters in a panic.

Besides I have a very strict definition of a "responsable adult" which ensures that very few weapons will make it onto a plane anyway.

200 armed yanks are nothing to few Australian/British SAS commando's.

by x-marcap

I used to drink with a couple ex-SAS officers at the old Globe and Anchor(Marine symbol & bar name) near Pensacola. They seemed to have fun with the snake eaters (greenie beanies,er Berets) and the Lurps(Long Range Reconnaisance Patrols). The LRRPS and Greenie Beanies were the only people they really considered their equals.

Seals were not that widely known at the time. (Why'd they get the stupid tattoos if they wanted to remain covert?)

By the way I disagree that you are only as safe as the craziest person. I suspect you aren't a responsible concealed carry type...

by tig2

A little hearing damage might be a good thing. Of course for some people, a little speaking damage might be better!

I was thinking more on the lines of level of horsepower required to neutralise the target vs. ability to punch a hole in the side of the plane, thus causing that rapid decompression thing that gets so annoying. In all honesty, it is possible that a .38 is too heavy as well.

I used to target shoot, my partner is a hunter- deer and partridge mostly. He is intent on getting me out shooting tasty animals this Fall. I don't know- I learned from a bunch of cops and focused on urban defense and shoot/don't shoot scenario shooting. I have never hunted for tasty animals before so I may be WAY out of element. But it's worth a try!

Duels? There would be many dead people. (57005 if you read that in hex!)I have a list...

While I can't find a reference for it, there was rumoured to be a town in Arizona that required its citizens to be armed at all times. Very quiet town so the story goes. No crime. Go figure...

by Member 25348569

The whole "explosive decompression" things was shown up as a Hollywood myth by "Mythbusters". The only way they actually got their crash dummy to even move was to blow the whole area around the window out - from floor to ceiling - with a plastic explosive charge.

If one of your stray bullets punches a hole in the fuselage, just plug it with the dead hijacker's finger.

What a trigger-happy lot you are, though. I've never fired anything bigger than a catapult in my life and don't anticipate ever shooting anything or anybody.

:D

by x-marcap

That is the desired goal, much less profanity, Bank robberies would be suicide. (Much like saying Go Oakies in Dallas) Other crimes would decrease also.

I think Heinlein may have suggested something of the same, I am never above stealing a great idea...

:-0

by jamesrl

It would be suicidal to work in a bank.

I live in a big city and see how poorly people drive. And as someone who has shot target pistol, hunted with a rifle and been to way too many tuekry shoots (shotgun), I beleive it takes more skill to be accurate with a handgun than to parrallel park.

I can just imagine what happens in a bank robbery. Both robbers are killed and a couple of innocents are killed in the cross fire.

Yes there is that town in Georgia I think where every one is armed and there is little to no serious crime. I wonder how much crime there is in similar sized towns in Georgia without the mandatory ownership law.

I did notice an interesting stat. Murders are going up in Toronto and there is an influx of illegal guns being imported into the city, higher than previous (though its hard to track since the majority of illegal guns are never discovered).

But the actual rate didn't leap up, it did rise but not as much as you migh suspect if you only read the headlines. I think some of the murders done with guns would have been done with knives or other weapons previously.

James

by x-marcap

All adult citizens are required to carry a gun.

No rapes, no murders by gun, (occasional bar fights, and a strangulation of a lawyer with hi own tie) and very polite people...

You get 50 rounds a day for practice at the local range until you get to take your test... Everybody gets to practice for free at the pistol range...

by x-marcap

It was only about 100 people in 1978. It may not be a city anymore... I googled it and there is no such city found...

by mjwx

A herd of cattle are only as fast as the slowest member.

MAD dictates that whenever one party fires a weapon all parties fire their weapons. It's a natural reaction when you're attacked to attack back. If shot at (or around as most people cant tell if they are being targeted in a panic) you shoot back. I would, you would, everybody would. So when everybody is armed you are only as safe as the most trigger happy (who IMO is the craziest).

MAD IMO doesent make everyone feel safe, but serves to make everyone so afraid of each other that they wont risk conflict (cold war mentality). It doesnt remove any cause(s) of conflict.

I have seen cattle stampede when frightened (I used to live in the north west of Western Australia where there are a lot of cattle stations). the ones at the front dont survive as they are trampled by the herd behind it. I'd hate to see this hapen with people.

I used to do a bit of roo shooting up north so I am quiet responsable with firearms, Gun safety is taught to us as kids. I show respect for the gun and I have never felt the need to carry.

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