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papal quotations

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by john.a.wills

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Benedict XVI quoted a Byzantine emperor as saying something unkind about Muhammed's teaching; great offence is taken from Morocco to Indonesia. In the same speech the Pope quoted someone else as saying that God does not exist; no-one seems to care. From the context it is obvious that he did not agree with either quotation. Why the difference in reaction?

180 replies

by maevinn

Are NEVER provided within full context. A quote saying the pope thinks there isn't a God? Clearly ridiculous, not even newsworthy. A sound bit of him bashing another religion? Well, that's news! Blood, guts and gory--manufactured if not found.

by old guy

might have misread the first post. It said "In the same speech the Pope quoted someone else as saying that God does not exist;" He quoted someone saying that God does not exist.

Just to clarify.

by maevinn

That's my point. Take that comment out of context (as him quoting someone else) and it's clearly absurd. The other comment--as a quote or not--can easily be taken out of context to tick people off. They'll believe it because they WANT to believe.

by maxwell edison

...demand an apology from all Muslims for failing to both denounce and take proactive steps to eliminate the murderous tactics employed by their Muslim brothers in the name of Islam.

by delbertpgh

How these Islamist wingnuts can burn down churches and shoot a nun and call themselves righteously idignant because somebody suggested Islam was "intolerant"... just eludes me.

I think the Pope could fairly apologize for being careless with the impressions he creates. It's not like he's having a private talk with the boys in the Vatican locker room; the whole world is listening, and crackpots are out there, ready to explode. If you're going to be a leader, you need some discretion.

But I think he ought to also say, in the same breath, that every Muslim church man owes the world a condemnation of his own people's intolerance, and an apology for the violence and lack of respect they offer the rest of us.

by jdclyde

If the pope of all people won't take a stand on something like this, who will?

We hear all the time about how it is just extremists, and I WANT to believe that. But when I don't see the NON-extremists rise up to do ANYTHING about what is done in THEIR name, it takes a lot away from their arguement.

At least the "righteously idignant" response isn't about cartoons?

by techexec2

[i]"I think the Pope could fairly apologize for being careless with the impressions he creates."[/i]

The Pope did apologize yesterday (from article, link below):

[i]"The pope on Sunday said he was "deeply sorry" about the angry reaction to his speech last week in which he cited the words of a Byzantine emperor who characterized some of the teachings of Islam's Prophet Muhammad as "evil and inhuman" and referred to spreading Islam "by the sword.""[/i]

Some Islamic leaders accepted it. Others said it was "not enough". And, that is all you need to know about where the problem is. Sort of sounds like "You either agree that Islam is not violent or we'll f*ckin' kill you".

REFERENCES

Al Qaeda threat over Pope speech
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/09/18/pope.islam.ap/index.html

by absolutely

"I think the Pope could fairly apologize for being careless with the impressions he creates. It's not like he's having a private talk with the boys in the Vatican locker room; the whole world is listening, and crackpots are out there, ready to explode. If you're going to be a leader, you need some discretion."

The way I hear it, at least, all that is needed is clarification and the Pope only needs to tell the truth: the quote causing offense is not one with which the current Pope agrees, and the purpose of his lecture was to advance a goal opposite to the offensive words quoted: peace. I suspect the Pope is having trouble articulating that simple fact because he is in the habit of being unnecessarily verbose, probably because he believes it helps project the impression of erudition.

by protiusx

Yeah! I wonder what the likelihood of Adinawannawackjob apologizing to anyone let alone the Pope would be? When pigs fly!

by absolutely

" ...demand an apology from all Muslims for failing to both denounce and take proactive steps to eliminate the murderous tactics employed by their Muslim brothers in the name of Islam."

What do you really think would happen if the Pope did this? Why do you think this is a desirable outcome?

If I were to criticize your professional specialty (which is not mine, making me unqualified to so criticize), wouldn't you tell me to stick to what I know? (or worse!) Why, then should a chieftain of one religion be expected to speak with analogous arrogance to followers of another?

by maxwell edison

.....I'm sure I don't see things like a Pope.

Whether we're discussing Popes, Presidents, or any other news-maker position, I can only speak on how I see something and what I might do, all based on the prism through which I see the world.

Unlike you, I'm neither pompous enough or presumptuous enough to presume my view and my opinion is the last and only word on anything. If you couldn't determine my intent for yourself, you've been inhaling too much of that smoke you continually blow.

by m_a_r_k

...of Islam. In their mind, it is acceptable to denigrate other religions and other people's beliefs. It is laughable how they childishly overreact. How many times in the last five years have you heard a Muslim cleric/iman/whatever, or leader of a Muslim nation (the Iranian president with name that is impossible to spell) say something offensive about Western religions and our beliefs? Dozens of times.

by maevinn

How many times have you been in the room listening to these statements--versus 5000 miles away from the speaker, hearing it on TV? Believe what you want, but the extremists get the coverage, the moderates who don't condone terrorism don't make appearnaces on our nightly news. Do some research--there are tons of websites showing how many Muslims feel about the violence and destruction.

by jdclyde

how many show what the moderates are doing to STOP the extremists?

Feel? What do they DO about the problem?

by m_a_r_k

In other words, the people who scream the loudest get all the attention. And more times than not,the people who scream the loudest feel most strongly about something. If all these millions of moderates truly were against violence committed in the name of their religion, they could very easily create a helluva lot more noise than the few thousand extremists.

And you are the one who is claiming there are "tons" of websites on moderation in Islam. Do you care to provide links to a few of these? But still, a couple of websites won't generate nearly as much attention as a bunch of bloodthirsty lunatics screaming "Allahu Akbar!" whenever their feelings are hurt by some Westerner's opinion or outlandish statement. Did the Jews scream and yell and call for the Iranian president's death when he said the Holocaust never happened? Or when he said Israel should be wiped off the map? Nope. And he said it not once, but countless times.

by absolutely

Hilarious, how you denigrate Muslims as childish, while arrogantly asserting your own ignorance ("the Iranian president with name that is impossible to spell") as superiority. Hilarious, except that this phenomenon is responsible for the continuation of tribal warfare in the modern world with tools invented by your intellectual superiors.

I challenge you to answer honestly: if an Imam were cited in the newspaper you read, criticizing the founder of your superstition, would you react any better? Suppose the Imam were only repeating a quote, and not agreeing with it. Will you claim that you would research the exact meaning of that quote before voting for more military spending? Or, would you accept on faith that the news reported to you is not distorted to sell copy, or for any other purpose we may not be able to guess?

I agree that violence is childish. The only way to end it is to use our own brains more effectively, to convince would-be enemies that their interests are best pursued by dealing with us as traders, with rights equal to theirs, freely exchanging value for value, or not dealing with one another at all.

by maxwell edison

Your enemy wants you dead, not to trade with you. The only compromise he would accept is if you were willing to kill yourself -- perceived intellect and all.

You're a real nut-case, dude. (Okay, this is where you go off on that "anti name-calling" tangent, ignoring the fact that the "name-calling" is for EMPHASIS.) You think you're such a high-brow intellectual? What a joke! You are too full of yourself -- definitely full of something.

by m_a_r_k

I was being tongue-in-cheek about that Iranian dude's impossible to spell last name. Ahmejanidanamijihad or something like that.

Tribal warfare in the modern world? hah! The only places that tribal warfare still exists is in the un-modern world: Afghanistan, Iraq, Rwanda, Somalia, Sudan, etc.

I would have no problem at all if an iman would criticize the founder of my so-called superstition. There have been many, many quotes over the centuries about my "superstition". Ever read the wildly popular "Da Vinci Code"? I read it. It was an interesting tome and very thought-provoking. Was I upset by it? Not at all. I think that any true believer in any supreme being will harbor some doubts as to the validity of their beliefs. None of us personally knew Moses, Jesus, Mohammed or any of the others. We have no tangible proof. So our belief is based on faith alone. So how could I be upset if anyone criticizes the pinnacle of my religion? I would be upset if anyone criticizes my personal beliefs because it is just that: a personal decision not meant to interfere with anyone or to be interfered with by anyone.

by danlm

that's the point. Disagree with my religion, I try to prove you wrong through conversation.

They want to burn the church, shoot the nuns, and bring the war of Islam to the Vatican to kill all Christians. there is a huge difference in how I would react to the same type of statement.

Dan

by jdclyde

as the riots and violence continue over something the Pope said. Churchs set on fire, nuns shot in the street. Yeah, Islam is the religion of peace all right. Peace of the grave.

Why do these idiots even CARE what someone from a religious structure they don't follow thinks? Because they are not the religion of peace they claim, they are the religion of peace they SHOW us.

World wide, they are proving the Pope right.

("they" being the rioters, violent protesters, and so on, before someone starts to cry that it is only a "select few". If it really IS just a select few, the masses should get them under control.)

by albertg

"If it really IS just a select few, the masses should get them under control"

Touch?

by maevinn

How is this any different than rioting sports fans?

I don't think riots or violence like this are the solution to any problem. I don't understand the mentality that says this will help anything...But this behavior is prevalent the world over. I guess I'd rather see it happening because of religious beliefs than because some team lost some game.

by jdclyde

The last sports riot lasted a few hours, was only in one city, churches didn't get burned down and nuns didn't get shot.

Bad example to compare it to.

by protiusx

The terrorist group known as Al Qaeda of Iraq posted a statement to the Internet today putting the Pope and the western world on notice that there are only two alternatives once they have taken over the world and that is death or conversion.
Nice.
And to think that Bush is so wrong when he says that Iraq is a part of the Global War on Terror. Perhaps we should just disregard what the poor terrorists say. They are just oppressed freedom loving Muslims anyway right?

by Member 25348569

And these are - what? How many? What resources do they have other than a frightening name?

What they have on their side is the Western Press which prints this crap and, alas, people like you who pick it up and run with it. If you think that this group has the numbers and weapons such that they [b]are[/b] going to take over the world then you have reason to worry.

If they frighten you that much then Nuke Mecca. A cruise-delivered ten MegaTon Hydrogen air burst over the al-Masjid al-Haram would certainly shut their yap for while. Get the wind right for the fallout pattern and Iran gets a taste of what Nuclear really means.

Given that the US has sufficient nuclear weapons to do - well, anything then why the fear. All you have to do is to wean yourselves off ME oil and you can stick the finger up at their "religion of love". Oh bugger; I've just spotted the flaw in my suggestion - wean yourselves off the oil.

Neil (Al Qaeda of Purely - Purley? Say no [b]more[/b]!)

by m_a_r_k

A quote from the Associated Press today:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060918/ap_on_re_mi_ea/muslims_pope_8
[i]"Al-Qaida in Iraq warned Pope Benedict XVI on Monday that its war against Christianity and the West will go on until Islam takes over the world, and Iran's supreme leader called for more protests over the pontiff's remarks on Islam. 'You infidels and despots, we will continue our jihad (holy war) and never stop until God avails us to chop your necks and raise the fluttering banner of monotheism, when God's rule is established governing all people and nations', said the statement by the Mujahedeen Shura Council, an umbrella organization of Sunni Arab extremist groups in Iraq.

Extremists said the pope's comments proved that the West was in a war against Islam."[/i]

As if the pope speaks for EVERYONE in the West. Even Protestants, Jews and atheists.

by absolutely

I heard about [b]one[/b] nun shot, in the entire world, in which 1,000,000,000 practicing Muslims live. How many nuns died of gunshot wounds on other days? Did somebody, somewhere, say something offensive on those other days, when some other nun was killed for some other reason? That nun was entitled to her life, just like every other person and her murder was tragic, but the "news" is still a small number of deaths, by a small minority of a religion of 1 Billion people. Do you care to run some statistical analysis comparing the number of terrorist murders committed by Muslim terrorists to all deaths caused by United States citizens, including the military, then weigh according to the total number of Muslims on Earth and the total number of Americans? We might not look so good, statistically speaking.

"Why do these idiots even CARE what someone from a religious structure they don't follow thinks? Because they are not the religion of peace they claim, they are the religion of peace they SHOW us.

World wide, they are proving the Pope right."

What are you talking about? Most of the worst the news media could find were purely symbolic acts of protest such as burning effigies. When you bring up the murder(s), I'll just repeat, there are 1 Billion Muslims, and a statistically minute minority of those Muslims has [b]ever[/b] committed murder.

Why do YOU care what [b]they[/b] burn in [b]their[/b] streets? What is your motive for portraying the murder of one nun as indicating the collective opinion of all 1 Billion Muslims? If 1 Billion people were monolithically as dedicated as the 10,000 or so in Al Qaida, I'm sure the entire Earth could be annihilated inside of one week. (Just calculate the average number of deaths per suicide bomb!) Obviously, that is not the case.

by onbliss

... in gleaning the temperament of the mass?

One or two violent incident could be deemed as stray incidents, don't you see there is disquiet among the Muslims and growing tension & agitation? Irrespective of their reasons being valid or invalid.

If one were to take the shape of a pyramid as an analogy, one might argue that it is the tip - miniscule amount of people - representing the violence. But if the massive base aids the top; how is the world going to handle the situation?

by jdclyde

even less done.

If you have some links on positive things that the Muslim world is doing to STOP the extremists, either to stop bombing attacks, or to stop riots, I would be interested to see them.

The only thing I have seen or heard was "don't profile because we don't all feel that way".

by maevinn

http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/july-dec05/islam_8-04.html

http://www.islam101.com/terror/mythViolence.htm (very biased, but an interesting read none the less)

http://www.wam.umd.edu/~stwright/rel/islam/fiqh-council-fatwa.html

http://wap.usatoday.com/detail.jsp?key=495101 --Just last month.

http://islam.about.com/cs/currentevents/a/9_11statements.htm

That's just a small sample. This is a topic I've discussed with a number of people, including one who is is vehement in his attacks against Muslims. This doesn't get the news coverage because it's a) not what most people want to hear, and b) not flashy.

by old guy

were getting to now. I thought you had mistakely thought he did say that. You're right that would be absurd.

by old guy

the squeaky wheel do you think we could also light that oil so it burns them to a crisp?

You are absolutely correct in the voices of the majority is seldom heard and I agree it's because they don't do anything about it.

by av .

He had to know he would fan the flames of hatred for the West and himself in the Muslim world by saying that. I think he wanted to do that to create a dialog between Christians and Muslims. Maybe it might not be the dialog he expected. It was a bold move, but it doesn't take much to incite the Muslim extremists anyway.

by maxwell edison

As an exercise in critical thinking, why don't you read and post the entire context of what the Pope said (easy to find), and then let us know why he might have said it and/or what you think he intended.

by absolutely

Do you really mean that he [b]had[/b] to know that he would be quoted out of context? He was, you know, quoted [b]out of context[/b]. I'm no apologist for Catholicism and I sincerely believe the title of this Pope's lecture to be oxymoronic ("Faith & Reason"). However, if [b]anybody[/b] may be required to know which incorrect context will be attributed to their words ("He [b]had[/b] to know he would fan the flames of hatred") I have insufficient incentive to risk communicating with [b]any[/b] of you dweebs.

by onbliss

Islam itself supports, directly and indirectly, such hatred and violence from its followers.

Every time thw World calls a spade a spade, violence was thrown at it by Islamists.

Irrespective of several sects in Islam, there is great unity among them, that makes them believe that they can surmount any challenge. Be it other religions or be it modern times.

So each time the world gets cowed down by the Islamists, the world engages in proxy wars. The Islamists see this and get further enraged.

As long as we all keep supporting - overtly and covertly - the powers in the middle-east and certain pockets in South East Asia, there really is not much going to happen.

Even if a miracle happens, it would take atleast two generations for things to settle down.

And also, the Pope could have watched himself. But like many here and around the net, I think he knew what he was doing and getting into.

Religious conversions by coercion, violence or by other means exist. And, Islam and Chrisitianity have just perfected this art little too much.

by jdclyde

in their heads, they would have seen this as the perfect time to show how caring and tolerant they are.

Instead they have stood up and made what the pope said a self-fullfilling prophosy. They proved him right beyond a shadow of a doubt.

How sad.

by onbliss

For the records there are some groups who have accepted the apology and are ready to move forward.

It is always a problem when religious leaders make comments on other religions. Instead of reaching out to others, I wish they would just reach within their followers.

by maxwell edison

...to chime-in on this discussion. Considering the areas of study in your background and your interests, I'd love to hear what you have to say on the matter.

by jardinier

As someone has already mentioned, the options are: "Convert or be killed."

Here is a recent statement by the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Sydney: [i][Please note that although this statement is relevant to this discussion, it was delivered prior to the Pope's controversial speech][/i]

AUSTRALIA'S most influential Catholic has said the Koran is riddled with "invocations to violence" and the central challenge of Islam lies in the struggle between moderate and extremist forces as the faith spreads into a "childless Europe."

The Archbishop of Sydney, Cardinal George Pell, said reading the Koran, the sacred text of Islam, was vital "because the challenge of Islam will be with us for the remainder of our lives - at least."

Dr Pell said the September 11 terrorist attacks had been his personal wake-up call to understand Islam better. He had tried to reconcile claims that Islam was a faith of peace with those that suggested the Koran legitimised the killings of non-Muslims. While there was room for optimism in fruitful dialogue between faiths and the common human desire for peace, a pessimistic response began "with the Koran itself."

Errors of facts, inconsistencies, anachronisms and other defects were not unknown to scholars but difficult for Muslims to debate openly, he said.

[b]"In my own reading of the Koran, I began to note down invocations to violence. There are so many of them, however, that I abandoned this exercise after 50 or 60 or 70 pages."[/b]

Dr Pell said every nation and every religion, including Catholicism, had "crimes in their histories". In the same way, Islam could not airbrush its "shadows." Claims of Muslim tolerance of Christian and Jewish minorities were largely mythical and he wondered about the possibility of theological development in Islam when the Koran was said to come directly from God.

[b]"Considered strictly on its own terms, Islam is not a tolerant religion and its capacity for far-reaching renovation is severely limited," he said.[/b]

However, like Christianity, Islam was a living religion and the existence of moderate Islam in Indonesia was proof of the softening impact of human intervention.

Democracy and moderation did not always go hand in hand and an "anorexic vision of democracy and the human person was no match for Islam", he said.

by tony hopkinson

After all you can't read a lot of the old testament without bumping into one or two bits of violence.

Old and new were used as a vehicle for intolerance, in fact they still are. Non christians not this-secret sect, no hetros, no....

In fact to hear anyone claim christianity as the religion of tolerance is enough to make me scream, the facts most definitely give lie to the claim. Perhaps not on an individual basis, but mobs have a mentality all of their own.

This is in no way an apology for the reaction to papal incompetence. But if I see the outright hyprocrisy in these attitudes, what do think someone who feels their faith is being threatened will come up with ?

by absolutely

Unfortunately, I haven't learned Arabic yet, so I'm not qualified to critique the translation directly. However, given the obvious absence of any rational self-interest that we can reasonably posit on behalf of the protesters, the most logical assumption is that they have been presented with words implying some kind of threat, which does not match the words that were quoted to me on public television just now. Since I don't yet know Italian either, I am very likely as much misled as the protesting Muslims, if not moreso. When people act irrationally instead of toward their own best interest, two basic responses are possible. One can either label them "enemies", or question in whose interests they [b]are[/b] acting, how they were convinced, coerced or tricked to put another's interests before their own, and attempt to reason with them.

(I'm not studying or planning to study Arabic or Italian, at least not in the foreseeable future. But I describe all things I don't presently know as things I don't know "yet" as a reminder that all knowledge is acquired by effort, and all ignorance is curable, by effort.)

by absolutely

In the United States, we are assured that freedom to dissent is guaranteed, but anti-war protesters suffer illegal wiretapping and this country's extremists ignore the Constitution, and assert that spying is a valid substitute for a search warrant. If, in "the freest country on Earth", such abuse is permitted by the majority while a state of war makes a convenient excuse, why should "NON-extremists [b]rise up[/b] to do ANYTHING" in nations without the guarantees of personal liberty our Constitution promises us?

by jdclyde

that want us to believe that muslims are peaceful and tolerant, then they need to keep the insane people from making them all look like the crazy death worshipers they are.

The people that tell us it is just a minority of the muslims that are insane, they should be able to do something about a minority.

Good thing our government isn't shooting nuns in the streets, huh? Lucky for them Reno isn't still the sherif in town.....

by absolutely

to recognize that 19 highjackers, 10,000 Al Qaida, and a couple thousand terrorists in groups with other names do not represent a consensus opinion of all Muslims toward the United States. Even Iran is only one country. Get some perspective.

"If these are the same people that want us to believe that muslims are peaceful and tolerant, then they need to keep the insane people from making them all look like the crazy death worshipers they are."

They, like I, most likely don't "want us (you) to believe" [b]anything[/b], only to be free to pursue our own happiness without interference from our government/their government, and especially in uninteresting disputes over the "correct" name of the imaginary friend that everybody knows is fiction anyway.

by absolutely

I'm talking about a Billion or more Muslims. You seem to be talking about the 10,000 or so card-carrying Al Qaida.

"Your enemy wants you dead, not to trade with you. The only compromise he would accept is if you were willing to kill yourself -- perceived intellect and all."

Please read [i]The Prince[/i] by Machiavelli, with emphasis on passages about cultivating allies and refraining from making enemies. I know, I'm one to talk about making enemies, right? But, this is all just blowing off steam. When the figurehead of any of the three religions of the descendants of Abraham speaks about violence, real people are likely to really blow up and be blown up if those figureheads speak provocatively. I think what you recommended the Pope should say would be provocative enough to blow up a large number of people.

by absolutely

Anybody who presumes to deal with me on any basis other than freely, for mutual benefit, has another thing coming. But I think that when large numbers of people [b]appear[/b] to behave irrationally, it is logical to question whether we, or they, or both, hold premises contrary to reality. When such a condition appears to exist, I check my premises. You?

by local support

The honorable prophet Mohammed of Medina and the
honorable prophet Jesus of Nasareth had very much in common:

Treat other people the way you want others to treat you.

He who is totally innocent may throw the first stone.

Watch your language. Let 'yes' be yes, and 'no' be no.

Be honest, you need not lay your hand on ANY holy book.

\Local support

by jdclyde

I don't recall Jesus of Nasareth (son of god) calling to behead anyone, or converting with the sword.

One said no to violence, the other embraces it.

There have been people running around for a while now very vocal against Christians and in most cases life to tell the tale. Again, we start to see differences.

Salman Rushdie anyone?

by jardinier

At the announcement of his election as the new Pope, many people commented that Benedict XVI was considerably more conservative than his predecessor, Pope John Paul II.

What I am suggesting therefore is that he knew and MEANT what he was saying.

At the American Christian website to which I have been posting intensely during my vacation from TR, there is a strong body of opinion that the "end times" -- Armageddon and the return of Christ -- are imminent.

While I do not agree with this view myself, I mention it because any inflammatory remarks by Christians to Muslims will HASTEN any major jihad which may be pending.

What I see happening in the world today is a return to fundamentalism in both Islam and Christianity, and of course the infiltration of Muslims into certain Western countries.

Will a global conflict originate in the Middle East? Who knows? But the tension is obviously increasing rather than decreasing.

While moderate Muslims are for the most part not prepared to speak out against extremists, fundamentalist Christians do their damnedest to tar ALL Muslims with the same brush as they do the extremists.

Although I have said this over and over, I will say it again. The moderate Muslims who do not speak out against, or dissociate themselves from the extremists, are not exacerbating the situation.

However Christians who insist that the extremist Muslims represent the true face of Islam are obviously inflaming the situation.

I think it would be nice if the Christians took the initiative and actually spoke loudly in favour of peace between all peoples on earth.

by Member 25348569

It's my personal opinion that these guys are potentially far more trouble to the world in general that all of the Islamists put together.

I've seen it reported in several different places that over 50 percent of Americans believe the prophecies in Revelation will come to pass. That frightens me far, far more than "Al Qaeda in Iraq" because this gang of religious nutters have political clout in the White House.

Some of them seem to believe that Israel will fight a nuclear war with the Islamic world and that the Secretary General of the UN is the Antichrist. That would be OK - you can believe what you want - but these nutters are actively pushing because they believe that the world will end and they will be drawn to Heaven during The Rapture.

I worry that the End Timers' agenda is to pour petrol on the flames of Middle East politics - as seen in the approval shown for the recent Israeli trashing of Lebanon and the general US stance toward any Islamic country. I also have a sneaky feeling that the USA's lack of will to combat global warming is partly down to them and I'm pretty sure that the anti-UN feeling is similarly fostered.

Just my 2ps worth

:)

by maecuff

that is precisely the thing that frightens my husband. I just stick my head in the sand. I don't want to worry about it.

by jdclyde

Who cares about global warming and what it means thousands of years from now, if the end is near?

Oh sure, that is a comforting thought...... :|

by onbliss

For the moment ignoring the past....

There are still large efforts going on in the third world where Chrisitian missionaries work in converting people into Christianity.

Such acts necessarily do not speak in favor of peace between people.

by jdclyde

that is what all religions do. Assimilation. I mean converting people to your flavor of spirituality.

The main difference between this and "peaceful" religions like Islam, is the Christian missionaries aren't killing non-believers anymore.

by Member 25348569

Was "Spawn of the Antichrist" in a bar somewhere in Arizona. My father and I were reciting Rugby songs in sinister Welsh voices and drawing pentagrams on the bar (the barkeep and all but one guy was in on the joke but this one guy went ballistic).

"My Little Saucepan"

Mae bys Mari Ann wedi gwywo,
A Dafydd y gwas ddim yn iach;
Mae'r Baban yn y crud yn crio,
A'r gath wedi scrapo Johnny bach
Sospan fach yn berwi ar y t?n
Sosban fawr yn berwi ar y llawr
A'r gath wedi scrapo Johnny bach.
Dai bach yn sowldiwr,
Dai bach yn sowldiwr,
A chwt i grys e' mas.

Just as an example "A'r gath wedi scrapo Johnny bach" means "And the cat has scratched little Johnny".

I guess that made my Dad the Antichrist and my Mum Bride of the Antichrist.

Neil :D

by Member 25348569

Go on using all of the oil that you want! The End is coming and the oil will easily last until then.

The latest "pointer" to THE END is RFI. The Mark of the Beast was a little unclear until Barcodes arrived and we were all going to be stamped. Now, we'll all have to have RFI chips to get food from The Antichrist between the Tribulations and The End.

Strangely, no-one seems to have picked up on the fact that The Rapture - hundreds of thousands of the God-fearing popping instantly off to Heaven - won't cause even [b]me[/b] to say "Oh, oh! Better get to a church PDQ - there seems to be something in this religion!". Get the chip, go to Hell. Don't get the chip - starve but go to Heaven. Bit of a no-brainer!

Just my thoughts...

]:)

by delbertpgh

He didn't issue an apology for what he said. He said he was sorry about Muslim reaction to what he said.

The reasoning behind the violent Muslim response, and the demands for apologies, seems to be a willful misinterpretation of what the Pope actually said. Sort of, "if you had said it slightly differently, it would be insulting to my religious principles, so I'm going to get all pissed about what you nearly said."

He did make it clear in his that the historical quotes he repeated were not his own opinion. Maybe he should have been more careful to state that loudly in his original speech. However, given the way these Islamist wack jobs are ready to set fire to the world if somebody sneezes when they mention the Prophet, careful phrasing might not make a difference.

by Member 25348569

It would seem, however, that US fundamentalist missionaries and Christians in Africa are killing people indirectly. The example that I saw very recently concerned Uganda where US fundamentalist - mostly End Times - missionaries are there in force.

Uganda receives significant amounts of funding from America, and much of that money is being channelled through fundamentalist groups who are pro-abstinence, and which would like sexual abstinence to be the central pillar of the fight against HIV.

Some Ugandan teachers report being instructed by US contractors not to discuss condoms in schools because the new policy is "abstinence only". There are some prominent people in government, and some outside, who with the help of conservative agents in the US are stigmatising AIDS, saying that only sinners use a condom and putting out the message that health workers are lying about how condoms can stop AIDS.

The result? The incidence of AIDS in Uganda rose in the last couple of years after falling steadily since the early 1990s.

Dead is dead, however it happens.

Neil

by onbliss

..to the use of the word "All" :-) Kidding apart, I don't think all religions have it in their agenda to go about converting others. When I say religion it includes the various books of the religion and its followers.

Killing or non-killing, conversion does not make people of other faiths much happy about the act :-)

by jdclyde

that any religion does not want you to "go forth" and bring others to your faith.

Can you give me an example of a religion that does not try to get others to see the "great truth" of their religion, and want you to join?

by onbliss

..now. I can speak of some of the Indian religions. Unfortunately I do not have information on all the religions of the world. So hope you keep that in perspective.

Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism and Hinduism for the most part do not expect its followers to bring others to its faith. Though being a Hindu, I place Hinduism in the last because there is one new sect that is just doing a horrible job. The group is popularly called "Hare Krishnas". And man I find some of their activities disgusting.

The religions I listed above might claim in different books that they are the best or have the "greatest truth", but does not emphasize on urging others to join.

by onbliss

.. in me, but unfortunately I might just let you down :-( That is just me.

Common sense tells me that there are good people in all religions. It also tells me that it is just possible that there are more good people on this planet than bad people. It also tells me that if people are just left to themselves and their religion, without impacting others, then there would be little less problems in this world.

Also I have read and heard stories where Missionaries truly cared about the people and went out to help them. Missionaries, Maulwis, Monks, or Guru are there out in the world who work only for the good of mankind.

But, I have also heard and read Missionaries whose aim is to convert. And I have experienced an incident, right in front of my eyes, a condition that did not show case them highly. There was this family in which a person was just going to die because of an accident. We were all crying and consoling each other. Somebody brought a Nun, who comes and tells the mother of the person, that if she accepted Jesus, then her son would be saved. The word "saved" might have a connotation of saving the soul.

So yes there are good Missionaries, but in the 10-40 window region, many of them that you meet have their agenda. And I can cite several incidents to show how they do cause some disquiet among the locals.

by onbliss

:-) But I can cite statistics that will lend modicum of credibility to my points. The North-East India for the most part has become Chrisitian, and there are rumblings of insurgency and separitism.

by onbliss

Jdclyde:
I am sure you must have heard about the 10-40 Window opportunity. If not just google; you will encounter many websites.

Looking at the money and energy being spent does not bolster the inter-religious peace much.

by jdclyde

I still think all religions are trying to do this, just some are better at it than others.

some again are more violent than others in their methods.

If you really believe that you know the way to salvation, how could you NOT try to share that with as many people as possible? SHARE, not force.

by onbliss

Based on what I know of history (which is far less), I do not agree that all religions work towards "sharing" the secret to salvation.

Won't it be fun, if we have cheat sheets for salvation on the internet. My son keeps pestering me to get him his pokemon cheat sheets. I resist; I tell him he has to try a little more hard. But he tells me he has done his part. Being not a gamer myself, I often wonder if cheat sheets are part of the gamin experience. I know there are so many websties giving walkthroughs and what not.

Argh, sorry for the digression, if you are loosely using the word "salvation" then fine. But if one gets into nuances things vary. Here is a link that discusses some of it: http://www.evangelical.us/hinduism.html

by Member 25348569

I will have to give it my earnest attention when I get home. I didn't really know where she came from as I just stumbled across God Warrior on YouTube. I was just frightened that it might be typical of Southern US women with me coming over and all...

:)

by old guy

small (very small) pockets in certain areas of the U.S. but not typical of mainstream. I would rather not state my personal opinion of some of these but she seems to be of he same vein as the TV evangelists that slaps people in the head and then takes their money. Quite obvious where their motives seem to lie. IMPO.

by jardinier

Some members of [b]meetchristians.com[/b] assert that EVERYONE who is not FOR Christ is part of the Antichrist.

And by FOR CHRIST is meant of course that you agree with the same interpretation of the Bible as that person.

And yes they are looking forward to the Rapture enthusiastically. Some assert that it will occur in seven years time.

However I started a discussion: "What if Jesus doesn't return?" That drew a variety of answers, and did bring a semblance of reality into the scene.

by jardinier

having been written some 600 years after the Christian New Testament.

However Judaism, Christianity and Islam all trace their roots back to Abraham.

[b]Genesis 17:17-21 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?

And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!

And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.[/b]

Now in a recent discussion people have pointed out that Ishmael did in fact produce a great and wealthy nation -- all the Arabic peoples and their oil money.

Here is a marvellous example of deceit (or stupidity, I am not sure which) that a member of meetchristians made only yesterday. He said he had given a Muslim a copy of the Bible, and the Muslim had given him a copy of the Koran.

This person said he had looked up "love" in the index in the Koran and it did not appear at all.

I have just done a search of the Koran at this excellent website:

[url]http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran[/url]

and found dozens of references to love.

by onbliss

Well if you talking about them, I don't know. I once visited a temple related to ISKON. Wow... it was anything but spiritual experience. Raw display of money, power and evangelism. I try to put as much distance from them and me. There are several more Hindu cults like them. So you see every religion has its own problems :-)

by danlm

Basically your saying, if their belief isn't strong enough to deal with the unbelievers. Then they really have no faith at all, just want to be faith.

And I felt the same way about the DaVinci code. Reading the book didn't shake my faith one bit and I felt the ones that were having a bird were questioning nobody else's faith but their own.

Dan

by m_a_r_k

Having one's beliefs questioned or asked about only causes one to think about their own faith in different terms and, more often than not, to become more committed to one's beliefs. The "Da Vinci Code" made me think about things that I hadn't ever thought of before. Same with the move "The Passion". That movie was in many ways similar to the quote the Pope referred to because the movie caused a reaction among Jews who felt they were blamed for crucifying Jesus without merit or legal basis. Putting that movie into the context of today's laws and ways of life, that would be true. But, if you believe in Mr. Absolutely's "superstitions", the incident happened 2000 years ago. It's like comparing strawberries to peanuts. The difference between the ramifications of "The Passion" and the pope's quotes from that long-dead Emperor are pretty stark. Jews responded peacefully and with open dialogue. Muslims are reacting like spoiled children and are only proving the pope's words correct in that Islam is a religion of intolerance and violence.

by onbliss

...somewhere along your lines.

[i]But if I see the outright hyprocrisy in these attitudes, what do think someone who feels their faith is being threatened will come up with ?[/i]

For many Islamists they perceive the Western society itself as a threat to their way of life. Anything US does is seen as imperialism. Anything the global companies do they think it as spread of imperialism. Anything the IMF or World Bank does, they feel the world bodies are acting as stooges of the Western governemnts. After 9/11 they have been pushed on their back foot. So some view even one incident as a one among a series of incidents or agenda to throttle them.

by absolutely

You may choose to use statistics all you like, but another part of your argument is the assertion that "the massive base aids the top" (see pyramid analogy above). I challenge that assertion. I know of aid provided by some national governments to terrorists, specifically Palestinian ones, but I have heard no allegations, even from George Walker Bush and his bloodthirsty coterie, of any [b]popular[/b] practical support of terrorism, financial or otherwise. As I understand the biography, Osama bin Laden is the disowned son of a very successful business professional, who specializes in construction and/or real estate. Bad luck for the world that such wealth was inherited by a psychopath. [b]Nothing[/b] more profound or complicated than simple, obnoxious bad luck. That sissy girl is not worth a global religious war. Please, let's not give him one.

by jdclyde

as some see starting over and over till you get it right, some see pearly gates, some see an orgy of virgins (where do the women go? No "heaven" for muslim women?).

My boys do the games. They beat the games. THEN they go for the "cheat codes" that mortals are not able to know by just playing the games. Locked sections and special characters.

Just keep in mind that most cheat code sites are just as dangerous to your computer as any porn site is, if not more so. There is only one computer I allow them to use to look up codes.