Please Please Please Dont leave us

Why do we have to buy yet another copy of Windows if we are replacing an old computer with a new one? If you're discarding the old computer, you can use the Windows from that one to load on the new computer. It would be a big waste of money to discard all the software that was installed on the old computer. The trouble is that most people don't know a thing about computers and they seem to think that hardware and software are inexplicably tied together as one inseparable unit.

I've bought all my desktop PCs from local shops that custom build to customer specs. The customer pays for everything they put on the machine. They won't arbitrarily load a "free" OS and I sure as hell won't pay for it, so it has a totally empty hard drive when I take it home. And therefore it doesn't have all the other useless crap like desktop icons for a free 30-days of AOL, an almost free credit report, an almost free divorce attorney, etc etc

want to have a comfortable life and love pre-installed software and OS. Of course, most of that comes from the fact that they dont know the first thing about software. Windows is the only thing they have ever heard of.

But M$ has nerve saying that hardware vendors should not hand out naked PCs .... I would never buy a computer if it comes pre-installed with windows. Its just that much more work for me to uninstall the peice of crap and install Linux.

]:)

The pre-installed configuration is not going to be exactly the configuration I want. How in the world does some guy in China getting paid 2 cents a day have any clue how I am going to use my PC? What components of Windows that you do want did not get installed? And vice versa, what components that you do not want did get installed? Even if I would want to keep Windows, rather than taking the time and risk of uninstalling/installing various components, I'd still reformat the disk and start over from scratch and install everything the way I want.

Er...I thought you have Windows on your PC, not Linux. ?:|

BTW, who in the world made up the phrase "vice versa"? "Versa" isn't even a word in the English language.

by onbliss Apr 6, 2006

...you are technical guy. I agree it is queasy to buy the "OS" again when one is trashing the old computer.

But for many people out there, when they buy a PC they would like it to just work like several of the electronic equipment that they buy - which is some basic settings and connections, then they start using them. Example: VCR, TV, Dishwasher, Washing machine, DVD, Radio etcetra.

I think as long as people are able to buy the hardware with their choice of OS installed, then it is a fair game. In the same breadth, they should be able to buy a piece of hardware without any OS isntalled (for the technically savvy like you and me :) )

Microsoft is just trying to protect its business, which a business should do, right?

have jurisdiction over what state a PC should be in when we go buy it.

If a user wants to tell his hardware vendor to install an OS before he takes the PC home, that's his business. Similarily, if we want to ask a hardware vendor to give us a naked PC, M$ is no one to tell us or the vendor otherwise.

]:)

by rknrlkid Apr 7, 2006

Unfortunately, there is a flaw in comparing a computer with an appliance.

How would you react if, when purchasing a television, the licensing on the television permitted you to only watch CBS, and no other stations? The television set is the hardware, and the programming is the software. The idea of a consumer television that only picked up one station or major network would be preposterous. Buyers want choice when they purchase a television.

The same applies to computers. People want choices. For a software manufacturer to dictate to the hardware manufacturer is silly. Protect your business? Yes, it does that, but at the same time doesn't pass the common sense test.

Bare-bone computers have been on the market since before the begining of IT time. No Mid or Large firm buys their computers pre-loaded with all that krap. Isn't that why MicroSoft sells bulk licences? And Soft-Ware packs with 5, or 10, or 25, or 100 licences? That's just plain mouth-brain disconnect.

Mouth Brain disconnect :D

M$ has just begun realising why people (individuals) buy bare-bone PCs. If Individuals start installing Linux on their computers by the dozen ... the practice will soon spread and then someday (cross your toes), Bill Gates' mansion might be in jeopardy ... ;\

]:)

this isn't aimed at these two examples. This is for joe shmoe on the street being able to get a laptop or pc one at a time without paying for windoze.

everyone has heard of the many attempts to make good on the return of the windows OS where it clearly says if you don't agree with the licencing to return it to the vendor. They make you return the whole package because they won't/can't unbundle it because they will lose the discount MS gives them on the OS if they agree to the extortion of HAVING to put MS on every complete system that goes out the door.

Barebones typically don't have a hard drive.

They ruined everything (except trouble calls levels) Most of their computers end up in the trash in 2 years anyway. (That's a BIG problem over here in Europe) (BTW you can get bare bones over here w/HDs, but you have to ask for one, as most of us actually want it our way)

by jaqui Apr 6, 2006

they do here.
no monitor or printer, but they have the drive, cpu, keyboard, mouse, power supply, cables and ram.
the only things required for use that they don't come with are the monitor and the os.

but you can only get a bare bones system from the small local shops here, any "chain" store won't sell it without winders.

Vice versa is Latin. I figured you would know that living so close to Latin America.

Well, you probably know this already but the people in Latin America don't speak Latin. They mostly speak Spanish. A few countries speak something else, like Portugese. Damn Europeans' influence was felt all over the New World. I dunno why South/Central America is called "Latin America", though. Nobody anywhere even speaks Latin anymore. Except the Pope.

BTW, what is the origin of Latin? And where is Latte?

I saw a 'Latte' in a coffee cup just the other day. :-)

by jhultberg Apr 6, 2006

The orgin of Latin was from the Roman's in the Roman Empire. Latte is in Italy if I remember correctly...

The geek formerly known as us_geeks_rule is right. In the US, this could be looked at as an infringement of fair trade practices and could lead to anti-trust investigation.

I would venture to guess that at today's prices, Windows accounts for about 1/3 of the cost of a new PC. I think there would be a pretty big (10%?) market for machines from major vendors with no OS.

I am trying to shed the us_geeks_rule because it associates me with the Impure Brigade. Dont you see?? I am turning over a Mambo Leaf ... ;\

]:)

If us_geeks_rule was a member of the Impure Brigade and stargazerr is pure of soul, then gazerr it is! Welcome to the Land of Driven Snow. Just leave my leaf alone. :)

at least in Europe, they're called 'bare-bones' and computer dealers have trouble keeping them in stock.

by onbliss Apr 6, 2006

...MS (it is not M$ :-) ) should have a jurisdiction over what a vendor is selling or a buyer is buying.

Infact I have said that the buyer should have the ability to buy a PC with whatever "OS" pre-installed or a naked PC.

My point is that not all people are like Mark, who can install the OS that they want. There are plenty of folks who like to buy a device and just use it with by just a few settings.

If MS (or M$ as I say :p ) manages to persuade hardware vendors not to sell naked PCs, people like you and Me and Mark will have to re-format and install what we want ....

For a lazy bum like me ... Thats too much work :D

]:)

by onbliss Apr 7, 2006

...there will be always ways to get hold of a good naked pc without any pre-installed OS.

Did he speak Latin? More importantly, was there also coffee in the cup? If so, I hope the Latte guy could swim.

I guess that makes me a Latte-no (buh dum buh)

Flash drives not have the capcity of HDD's a few years ago. We should just set up generic boxes to boot to USB, then we can take our computers on the keychain in our pockets to any public library or computer cafe and boot to our own desktop. Gateway, Dell and Lenovo would HATE that.

You're close. It was spoken in Latium, not Latte.

"Latin is an ancient Indo-European language originally spoken in the [b]region around Rome called Latium[/b]. It gained wide usage as the formal language of the Roman Republic and Roman Empire. Latin is a member of the family of Italic languages, and its alphabet, the Latin alphabet, is based on the Old Italic alphabet, which is in turn derived from the Greek alphabet...Latin was first brought to the Italian peninsula in the 9th or 8th century BC by migrants from the north, who settled in the Latium region, specifically around the River Tiber, where the Roman civilization first developed."
- source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin

They are offered both ways, but the $150 barebones are a case/power supply/motherboard/cpu and sometimes memory.

once you start talking $400, where is the advantage over a dell package that comes WITH an os/scanner/printer/monitor and handjob?

No, department stores don't sell barebones.

The ones that all catch my eye don't have the hard drive, and are marketed as the poormans upgrade. take your existing hard drive and dump it in the new system instead of trying to add new parts to an old system.

by unclerob Apr 6, 2006

... my dell dimension package never included a handjob - I feel cheated! (or maybe it's included with the 1 year "on-site" support)

hmmm.... No wonder Dell sells more pc's than anyone else.

it took me awhile, but I caught that too. Started laughing too hard, now I'm going have to run & tank-up the coffe cup.

if people actually read anything I post! :D

too many people just scan anything over instead of looking at the details.

Qupie doll for the both of you! B-)

by jaqui Apr 6, 2006

with the zip for support I got from dell for an ispiron notebook I used to own, I'll never buy dell again.
and nope, no hand jobs from them either. My wife is the only one I let do that. ]:)

but they aren't the dirt cheap system anymore. or at least not the ones I have seen, and it kind of defeats the purpose of a barebones IMHO.

Fast turnover of computers is good for everyone though. a lot of my side jobs are setting up an new system and transfering data to the new system. often I don't even charge the customer to "dispose" of that old thing...... :D

me too :-) but now, would want a printer? or two? or three? It's those things too. The cartriges cost as much as the printers, so those silly consumers just go out buy a new printer. The computers it set up for school kids, so them can get smarter than me. (now I have a shortage of those) But the printers a starting to take up space.

you do know that the cartrige that comes with a printer is typically only half full, right?

by jamesrl Apr 6, 2006

There is one major retailler here, Tigerdirect(Online and two stores in Toronto area) who sell barebones. But I went shopping and took my calculator. I was going to buy Windows XP anyway. I found a like new refurbished PC with XP home included for less than I would have paid for barebones + HD + OS. I used to build my own, but the refurb comes with the Win XP at the large OEM rate which has to be much cheaper than the retail box price.

I do know a few small places which will sell a basic barebones with or without HD and/or OS and you can do what you will with it. Tigerdirect's pricing beats them. I have seen $150 Cdn for a MB, Case w/PSU, CPU Fan and RAM and 3 Ghz Celeron processor. I can't buy the processor for less than 90 and the fan is 15$.

James

and that was with a gig of ram.

I almost got that to replace my pII400.

by mc_user Apr 7, 2006

Walmart made news some time ago when they first offered PC's with no OS installed. Micotel with everything except a monitor and OS.

They seem to more stocked with HP's these days but the bare bones systems are still available.

I saw her turning your leaf! :0

pure indeed!

B-)

The average snufy consumer doesn't

by Member 25348569 Apr 6, 2006

Die dulci fruere :D

by jmgarvin Apr 6, 2006

With Vista looking like a flop (if it ever comes out) and all the "bad" news about security (two consecutive zero day IE flaws anyone?)...MS just isn't as attractive to corporations or consumers.

Consumers are fed up with the lack of support, security, and usability outside typical tasks.

Corporations are fed up with the security holes and craptastic corporate support.

So, now users are looking towards different OSes...The city of Munich is the first to jump ship, but not the last. The government of China officially is using Linux because MS dropped the ball.

It all comes down to:
MS needs to go back to what it should be doing...creating an easy to use OS that is also secure!

MS doing that ... Creating an easy to use OS (check) that is secure ?? ( If we are talking about MS, I dont think thats possible) :D

But yes, instead of butting their noses into everyone's business (pun intended) they should just do what people expect of them.

]:)

by dmambo Apr 7, 2006

Remember, the lion's share of PC consumers are the unwashed masses. Most users just want to go home, power up, get their e-mail, and see some internet porn. The very idea of slicking a machine to install an OS is crazy talk to them.

Couple this with their memory of a new PC priced at $2000 a few years ago, and they're happy to shell out $800 - $1000 for a new machine with that monster Celeron processor, a flat screen and as much RAM as their first hard drive had. Also, when Vista rolls out, XP machines will see another discount.

MS might collapse some day, but it'll be a slow death, not likely to happen anytime soon.

by jmgarvin Apr 7, 2006

I don't think they'll die any time soon (much like IBM), but I do think they are traveling the same path and will find that consumers will just go elsewhere (including major distributors)

by nighthawk808 Apr 6, 2006

I have a box full of Windows CD's that I don't use. They all are legal copies that I own, but I don't use them and didn't want them in the first place. Why do I have them? Because they came with the computers. So M$ has sold half-a-dozen copies of Windows and added to their sales by that number, but zero of the six copies are actually being used. All of these computers were immediately reformatted once I got them in my paws and had various flavors of Linux installed.

Try to find a brand-new Toshiba laptop that doesn't have Windows preinstalled. Mine did and it currently runs Kubuntu, not Windows--but M$ got their slice anyway.

If you can suggest to me a laptop that both does not come with Windows AND is better than a Toshiba, I'll consider them the next time I'm in the market. Those thinking of suggesting Dell, Gateway, Acer, Compaq, or Sony need not bother. Of those five Sony is the only one I'd look twice at, but you can get a better Toshiba for less money than a decent Sony. Thinkpads are also nice, but they have approximately the price/performance ratio of a Jaguar (i.e., a whole lot of price for a fair amount of performance), so they're not particularly interesting to me.

So, anyone got any suggestions for all those people who want a laptop but don't want to pay the M$ tax?

We are moving office, and I am currently in the process of trashing all the copies of windows that came with the 18 laptops we have bought over time.

But windows is not all ... we have also got MS-Office CDs (I cant see me using any more than 3 (and that's to be safe)) and XP help booklets (what in th world?? )

]:)

by tony hopkinson Apr 8, 2006

But it came with XP on it.
bugger

Just set it up to dual boot with Mandrake 10.1, but having power management problems. Did Toshiba play fair with Kubuntu on this front ?

Problems are if power management is on. Fan is coming on early, indicating over heat, sometimes does not shut down after a halt or reboot.

With it off, no warning when it's going to go off LOL

It's Toshiba Equium EA60 -181

Excellent machine though, looked at sony but I didn't want the free root kit.

by dawgit Apr 8, 2006

Tony, check out this link: ( http://linux.toshiba-dme.co.jp/linux/index.htm ) when you have a chance. I've talked to the folks at Toshiba, and when ever I have a project with a Toshiba & Linux, they were more than helpful. They support Linux 100%. (but have to advertise as a MicroSoft Supporter, which they also do)

Note: I'm not sure with Ubuntu / Kubuntu, they're still new and kind of buggie. (Red-Hat & SuSE should not be a problem though)

by nighthawk808 Apr 9, 2006

with my old Gateway 400SD4 that also has Kubuntu. That may just be a coincidence, though, because propping up the side with the air intake for the CPU seems to have solved it. I can't be certain that that was the real problem because I haven't had time to go though the logfiles to see if anything out of the ordinary is happening right before it dies. Since this old heap is used mainly for surfing the web while relaxing in front of the fireplace, it hasn't been a big priority. The only reason it doesn't have SuSE on it is because I like having a different flavor on the laptop than what I have on my desktop.

Nevertheless, dawgit is correct when he says that Kubuntu's KDE is still buggy. For me, at least, they're mostly annoying instead of critical bugs, but the Kubuntu team already knows this and they've even delayed the release of Dapper Drake to give them more time to work them out. This is in contrast to Microsoft's "Just ship it and we'll fix it in SP4" attitude toward release schedules.

And, for all you Microsheep who say that we never say anything bad about Linux, I am explicitly admitting that there are bugs in my favorite OS too! The difference is that I know that they will eventually be fixed and, if I had the time and inclination, I have the source code so I could go and fix them myself and actually get thanked for it, instead of Microsoft's "We don't approve of anything we don't release on Patch Tuesday" scorn, which they've given recently to people who released patches for Windows so admins who didn't want their machines sitting around vulnerable to B1ff the Script Kiddie for another two weeks could put a Band-Aid on it.

by tony hopkinson Apr 11, 2006

I'll have another scout about. You know how it is with google ask the wrong question and you get an IQ test, three chances to get spammed, the opportunity to buy slimming bread along with a technical article that says I tried this and it didn't work.

If I drop on to something useful (that f'ing works !) I'll post it back.

I had to go in and scan your post a bit more carefully after UncleRob screamed :D

]:)

You walked into that one .... :D

]:)

by m_a_r_k Apr 7, 2006

when people pick up on some of the quirky little things I casually, off-handedly (not a reference to jd's aforementioned hand job), discreetly and covertly slip into my posts. By golly, people actually read and digest the crap I write.

Neil, what did you just say to Marcus?

I saw her too, but she was turning it back down (not that I was looking). But, you should be thanking her.

by Member 25348569 Apr 7, 2006

Have a nice day

Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam. Vah! Denuone Latine loquebar? Me ineptum. Interdum modo elabitur.

I didn't understand a word you said, but you're kinda cute.

Where have you been ??

]:)

by m_a_r_k Apr 7, 2006

Where in the world have you been? And my name isn't Marcus, Ms. Firestarter. It's M_a_r_k. Damn, those underscores are hard to type. And yeah, I am kinda cute, huh? :D Oh... were you talking about Neil? Hmmph! BTW, don't disregard this post. ;)

by onbliss Apr 7, 2006

When we buy the OS pre-installed with any OS, the license does not say that the computer can be used only with that particular OS. Also, the Intel machines, which Microsoft relies on has the capability to load other OS. So it is not like the consumer TV picking up just one network. If it did, then your analogy of the television license would hold good.

Microsoft does not say that the PC should be used only with its OS. It is arm-twisting (which I accept, and which was not my point of discussion) the vendors to load its OS. If Microsoft went about saying that Intel should support only MS and ignore the rest of the other OS, then your analogy would be valid.

I am all for buyers choice: I had said the buyer should have the option to buy a PC with and without his/her choice of OS.

Hence it passes the common sense test.