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Pope John Paul II

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by oz_media

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"[i]"Have you been a diligent and vigilant master of the church?"[/i] he asked himself. [i]"Have you tried to satisfy the expectations of the faithful of the church and also the hunger for truth that we feel in the world outside the church?"[/i]

The pope offered no answers to the questions, but he did ask for prayers to help him carry on [i]"right to the end."[/i]"

"[i][b]John Paul II[/b][/i]

1920: Born near Krakow, Poland

1946: Ordained a priest

1964: Appointed Archbishop of Krakow

1978: Elected Pope

During the Nazi occupation in World War II he studied theology - in hiding for part of the time - and was eventually ordained a priest in 1946.

He was quickly promoted, becoming archbishop in 1964 and cardinal in 1967.

An outside candidate, his approach to the papacy was dynamic. John Paul II has never been a man to remain shrouded behind the walls of the Vatican.

He has travelled constantly. After his appointment, he quickly established himself as an instantly recognisable figurehead to the world's largest Christian community.

He has visited more than 100 countries and is estimated to have effectively circled the globe 27 times.

However his desire for closeness with people almost led to his death. In 1981 he was shot and seriously wounded by a Mehmet al-Agca, a Turkish fanatic, in St Peter's square.

After a long recovery he visited and forgave his would-be assassin."

No, Pope John Paul II didn't support war, ANY war.

Yes, Pope John Paul II had his share of critics for his views on contraception, divorce and aborton.

There is no doubt though, that this man's dedication to the betterment of mankind left an indellible mark in history. The world gained great benefit from him, and he shall me missed by all.

We know you will rest in peace, Pope John Paul II 1920 - 2005

50 replies

by deepsand

His ascension to the Papacy was engineered by Philadelphia's John Cardinal Krol, the king-maker of the Catholic Church during his tenure.

Krol was quite comfortably esconced in his Main Line estate, and had no desire to take on the responsibilites of being Pope, while simultaneously giving up the great freedom he so enjoyed to come and go as was his want. So, like many politicians, he choose to excercise his powers behind the scenes.

As a fellow Pole, the future John Paul II was a natural candidate for him to back.

by thechas

I had the good fortune to attend Mass presided over by John Paul twice.

Both are events etched in my memory.

May other religious and political leaders learn from John Paul's example and give selflessly to their respective flocks.

Chas

by jellimonsta

During a visit to Rome in 99, my wife and I attempted to go to mass (which was being held by John Paul II). Unfortunately, we ended up getting stuck in the Rome train station, and never made it to mass. My wife is still upset about that :(

by tbragsda

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I will keep it down. I do offer my best wishes.

John Paul II was generally conservative on issues like abortion, gay rights, women and married people in the priesthood. And sure, he doesn't want HIV positive Catholics in aids ravaged coutries using condoms. I have a little to like about him, but I will offer my best wishes to Catholic TR members, and leave it at that.

Peace to all.
TBR

by thechas

I have started a thread for those who wish to discuss the teachings of Pope John Paul and the Catholic faith.

https://www.techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=8&threadID=171244&start=0

Yes, Pope John Paul followed the long standing teachings of the Catholic Church.

The church is not a democracy and should not be expected to change it's teachings to follow the whims of current social norms.

The Pope deserves accolades for holding fast to the teachings of the Church.

One is not required to join a specific faith. However, one should embrace the teachings of that faith once they decide to become a member.

Chas

by jellimonsta

As rife as rape is in the African countries, I doubt Catholics wearing condoms would do too much to curb the spread of aids. IMHO.

by jaqui

aids = auto immune definciency syndrome

what you are reffering to is hiv
a viral infection that causes an aids-like state by destroying the immune system

had to learn about it, spent a year working in downtown east side, the highest incedence of hiv and hepititis c infection in north america ( by percentage of population infected )
also the poorest area in canada.

there are also 2 things to remember:
1) if you are possible accidentally exposed there is a cure. run to local hospital and demand to be tested for and given the accidental exposure treatment as defined by the Dr. Perter Centre for Excellence in HIV treatment.
( basically, the cocktail until test results back, if negative that's it, if positive, continure for 30 days. get tested again at end, at 6 months and 1 and 2 years.

2) it doesn't mean your life is over anymore I know people that have lived with it for over 20 years now, still going strong.

by maxwell edison

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Your comment is, without a doubt, the most mean-spirited message I've ever seen on TechRepublic - ever. It's also possibly the most ignorant.

The Pope was neither "conservative" or "liberal", but rather a moralist. He lived how he believed and encouraged others to follow the teaching of Christ. Just because you disagree with his views, he doesn't force them on anyone.

You don't respect anything except your own ignorant views. What an ass.

by oz_media

When I read it I was taken aback somewhat by te undertone of the supposedly appreciative message.

IN my original post i had mentioned that he had his share of critics of his views, but really no human can deny that this man was a great benefit to mankind ona whole. I suppose I spoke too soo, SOME humans would have a clouded vision and not see what good he brought to us all.

I am not Roman Catholic either, I never followed the Pope's messages and desires as a devout Roman Catholic, yet there is no way I can not recognize what faith he did bring to millions/billions of people and how he left such a positive mark during his life.

Not to worry, some of us can appreciate what good people have to offer that FAR outweighs what we dont believe in ourselves.

by jck

Hm...ok...being as I'm not Catholic nor ever have been, I'm reluctant to post on this topic, as well as many other politically/religiously-oriented topics. But, here it goes anyways:

The Pope was a representative of the Catholic Church. He's the highest representation on Earth of the Catholic faith.

Did The Pope believe that no one should use condoms so that AIDS or any other medical infirmity should ravage the Earth? I'd certainly hope not.

I think that because Pope John Paul II was the highest represenatative of the Catholic Church, he made decrees of faith based on what he felt was best for The Catholic Church and not based on personal beliefs and desires. Were those *his* beliefs? Only he could tell us that.

Did he want people dying? I think not. However, I think he believed more that people could follow a more humble and chaste path. Albeit that in itself is a teaching of Catholic religion, I think he thought it possible of all mankind to better themselves whether they were followers of the Catholic faith or not. That included abstinence rather than the use of condoms.

Nonetheless, I can't believe he was a barbarian who cast down a curse of plagues on the masses. Rather, I think he was a man who in his tenure went to men such as Fidel Castro to speak to him. Ya know, how many times have you seen leaders from the USA, Australia, England, France or Canada meet with Castro? To me, a guy like Pope John Paul doing that reminded me of someone who would go to the poor and ostracized and speak to them. That guy was Jesus, who went to those that others would not go to.

As for whose comment is ignorant...what John Paul II personal beliefs are...who is an ass...personally, I think the disdain and anger you projected toward someone with (in your own words) such an "ignorant" comment...well...1) I think it takes away from the praise of John Paul II's life to give time to something you consider of such poor taste, and 2) if you think someone and their comments are of such little value, why pay them any creedence?

Personally, I tend to remember John Paul II fondly, as he's been Pope since I was a child. I've seen a man who went to the poor and the affluent alike to spread not only the faith he followed, but to spread humanity. If he'd have read the comments above that upset you, I'd like to think he'd simply have felt sad because someone thought so little of him...then asked God to help him and to help reach those people with love from his heart.

I can't get angry at anything said...I didn't know John Paul II personally. I can only go by what other men say. Some say he was perfect...some say he wasn't. But, I'll leave it to God to decide what was in the man's heart. I can only see what his actions were and know that they were all entirely commendable.

by tbragsda

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I think describing him a ?conservative" is more than fair game. He is a political player as well as religious figurehead. While I meant to describe his ?conservative? policies as they relate to the church, I?m sure you read that as our right/left argument. That?s OK with me. It works for both.

I?m a moralist, and live by what I believe and encourage others to as well. We all should live by our set of morals. My problems with the Pope are, I don?t agree with everything he preached, and don?t fear pointing out where I disagree. It would be wrong of my NOT to say when I think he is wrong.

OK, as for my ass. Let me be serious. I don?t want to offend ?the fateful?. I?m sorry if I have. We can talk about this Pope, or any other subject without offending each other personally. I don?t like him, he had little real effect on my life, and for the most part I didn?t spend much time thinking about him. If you though him a great leader, spiritually or otherwise, I respect your views enough to read what you have to say about him. Don?t expect me to agree.

TBR

by sleepin'dawg

"No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friends or of thine own were; any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."

I am not Roman Catholic nor particularly a believer but I do believe he worked hard to see an end to strife in the world. He did much to encourage the youth of the world but he wasn't without fault. As great were his achievements so too were his faults especially his stance on contraception. His oposition to condoms did much to hinder the halting of aids in Africa but he was a man and what man is perfect or without fault. His contributions outweigh his errors. He will be remembered. He was not an island and tonight we know who the bell tolls for.

Dawg :(

by jaqui

better than resting in pieces?
(which was next option for getting rid of the senile old coot.) ;)

the real issue is, what type of rabid lunatic are they going to replace this dynamic person with?

I'm not christian, but I know that John Paul II wasn't as bad as most of the Catholic Hierarchy are, and we are very likely going to regret his passing as the new pope will incite even more religous disputes than already plague the world.

by thechas

As I am sure you are aware, there is a great deal of speculation about the next Pope.

At least in the area of social and religious doctrine, it is fairly safe to assume that the next Pope will have very similar positions as those of John Paul. After all, John Paul appointed 102 out of the 107 Cardinals who will elect the next Pope.

John Paul II was one of the youngest men to be elected as Pope. In part because the Papacy of John Paul I lasted less than 1 year.

The big question is will we have another young energetic Pope, or an older more sedate Pope.

I don't expect any kind of radical Pope who will incite religious unrest. Most likely, the new Pope will continue to reach out to those of all faiths.

I do expect a continued emphasis on traditional Catholic teachings on sexuality and human rights.

Chas

by tony hopkinson

Those human rights the hierocracy chooses to allow.
You don't have the right to be gay, for instance, still making progress at least they've stopped burning and drowning people. I suppose he was a good pope compared to earlier ones, but that wasn't too difficult in my opinion. His apologies to the jews went down well with me, but I still firmly believe they would make the same decision again, if it came too it.
May be the next one will do something a bit more drastic about pederasts, still got some matches about somewhere.

by tbragsda

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I get bashed for offering my condolences, you call him an old-coot!!!

WELL...

I have hope for his replacement. The Pope means a lot to a lot of people, and can change many minds. I hope for a sane and thoughtful new Pope.

by maxwell edison

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I believe that's called adding insult to injury. You offered no "condolences" whatsoever. You only offered insults. Get real.

by maxwell edison

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You, too, are showing crass behavior. And how stupid is it to show such contempt for a person who has absolutely no effect on your life?

There ya' go, tbragsda@...; you now have some company.

by hal 9000

AIDS really stands for "Alcohol Induced Dizzy Spells" plain and simple. :D

It is a common occurrence over here with just about every adult is affected by it to some degree. :p

Col ]:)

by prana7

i respect him so much. he had been battle with bad thing in world, priest had some problem with children molester, and alot of things. he shows very inspired.

sad to see that he passed away. bless him.

by tbragsda

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Is the Pope off limits to any criticisms?

My wish for peace and my condolences to those that feel a loss were genuine, but I will not revise my feelings about this man because of his death.

TBR

by Member 25348569

was intended to be a thread solely for tributes to the man - whether from Catholics or not.

As Head of the Catholic Church, he was consistent in his beliefs and teachings so you have to reckon that he did his job well from any perspective. He visited every country that he could lay a foot on until his health gave out.

If you don't agree with Catholic policy - whether in general or in those aspects of policy set down by JPII - there is a separate thread.

by tbragsda

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And I saw nothing that said, "don't mention any disagreements with the Pope."

TBR

by oz_media

In this case it wasn't a topic for discussing the good or bad of the Pope's efforts, merely to pay respects.

Perhaps your post is better off in Chas's thread where it is open to more suggestive or controversial ideas. This was merely a way to pay respects, your two sided post seems a little out of place and in poor taste for this thread anyway.

by tbragsda

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I saw nothing in your original post to imply that I must only offer a tribute. What I did offer came from a place with out malice. If others see it otherwise, I do, and already have apologized. I will reply to any direct attacks based on anything others read-into my post.

I do offer my concondolences to all Catholics and others that share a love for this Pope.

TBR

by maxwell edison

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...was dripping with contempt for a very fine person. And to insult others by saying (I'm paraphrasing) something like, with all due respect to......and then to disrespect them by disrespecting the Pope, is the epitome of crass behavior.

I don't agree with all the Pope's views either. Heck, I don't agree with all of anyone's views. But I sure give them the courtesy of respecting their rights to their views. My resect stops for a person when his views are forced on others, something the Pope, unlike politicians, simply doesn't do.

And to call the Pope a "conservative" is the epitome of ignorance. Sure, he disapproves of abortion, but he approves of the transfer of wealth. Sure, he's against homosexual behavior, but he's also a pacifist. He fits neither the conservative or liberal label, and to try to label him in a political context is just down-right ignorant.

You said that you just don?t like him. But you also said that you didn?t spend much time thinking about him and that he had little real effect on your life. (My guess is that he had absolutely no effect on your life.) Gee, how stupid does that sound. You claim to "not like" a person that you neither think about nor are effected by. Or do you simply "dislike" people because they think differently than you.

What a foolish little schmuck you are.

by tbragsda

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You start your reply consolatory, and ends with more personal attacks. You read contempt into the post, I didn?t intend it. Read it again. I offer condolences to those that though well of this man, and offer a little of my feeling of him. Nothin more.

Calling him "conservative" as I stated, is fair. It is opinion. I believe he could have changed the rolls of woman within the church, but held ?conservative? views of the church he headed. That is valid, and in no way simply ignorant.

You change "didn't spend much time thinking about him" to "neither think about or are effected by." Thats a big move. I though enough about him to form a opinion. He has enough of a effect on my life to have some concern for him, and those that follow him. Don't move to extremes to try to make me look thoughtless.

I have never simply done much of an anything, let alone dislike some because they think differentley then me.

I am truley sorry that I have offended you, but will not change MY dislike based on your ad-hominem attacks. Discuss, or stop insulting just to prompt a reply.

TBR

by maxwell edison

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....I just think you're a jerk.

And I changed nothing. You said, "I don?t like him, he had little real effect on my life, and for the most part I didn?t spend much time thinking about him."

You said it. I didn't change it.

Yep, you're a jerk - and a back-peddling one at that.

by maxwell edison

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...who has lived during my lifetime, who showed a true love for absolutely every person on the face of the earth; and he not only showed it, but he lived it.

by jellimonsta

Not saying she showed a greater love, by any means. I just thought I would mention the fact that she too was a good and faithful servant.

by maxwell edison

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Of course, you are correct.

Mother Theresa and Pope John Paul were indeed cut from the same mold.

I suppose that means, however, that those people critical of Pope John Paul because of his beliefs, are equally as critical of Mother Theresa for hers, since they were, in essence, identical in every way.

Thanks for pointing out my oversight.

by oz_media

But in Max's defense I know that in a similar converstaion we have both agreed that Mother Theresa has been one of the most valued assets to society.

I think he probably just missed the mention this time around.

I am just put off by people who can't accept people for what they have done and instead hold their personal beliefs as an issue. I amnot Roman Ctholic nor follow th ereligion as my own, yet I would have to be deaf, dumb, and blind (shut up Max :) )to not appreciate what he has done for the betterment of millions if not billions in the world.

I could only dream of impacting the world as positively in my lifetime and certainly am in no position to judge him. God will judge Pope John Paul II, not me, and I am sure HE will see him continue to lead those who share his faith.

by oz_media

Nobody asked you to agree.

As others have noted, this thread was clearly a tribute to a man's life work, therefore if you do not feel that you should pay tribute, then simply don't. Nobody is offended if you don't reply to what doesn't interest you. There is no need to offer a half-assed sentiment if you do not feel it worthy of your praise.

You are almost like a guy who stands up at the back of a Eulogy and says, "Well he was okay but he was a bum too!"
Sometimes, those ocmments are just out of place and not considered respectful. This thread was meant simply to pay respects.

I am not a Roman Catholic either, I don't live my life by the virtues of the Catholic religion, but I cannot simply ignore the great efforts that this man went through for decades in order to spread hope, happiness and peace to all men, regardless of faith. He helped more people personally in his life than most could HOPE to help in several lifetimes.

Lets just respect what he did and leave personal religious or political views for another topic. His 'good' toward mankind far outweighed the controversy.

by tbragsda

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Spending little time thinking about someone is differnt than not thinking about them. You spend less time thinking about ME than the Pope, but you have formed a opinion that Im a jerk. No "back-peddling".

I think I did offend you. You can say otherwise, but I think I did. I did not intend to. I have offered a apology you simpley cant take. Its like me saying Im not hurt by name calling. I am. I don't like it, but I think I can take it just fine. I think you hold such high esteem for this man that you jumped on me for offering even a little criticism of him.

OK, thats about enough. Want to talk about him, his life, his faults, Im willing. But I can see the loss is too fresh right now, and will try to leave it for another day.

TBR

by tbragsda

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I offered no insults, only MY small critique. Get real yourself. You obviously are too close to the subject to offer rational discussion.

Take my apology in the sprit it was offered, stop insulting me, or, if you like, discuss how you feel my original critique was wrong.

TBR

by oz_media

Yet this little session has been dragged out by both of you. I am sure exactly what PJPII's wishes for mankind really were. A fight over whether he was right or not.

Lets not forget the focus of the original post Max, leave it be.

by oz_media

I may not agree with all the teachings of the Roman Catholic church either, but this isn't the place to say so, I wanted to pay respect for the man's endless devotion and dedication to his life's work, regardless of the religion behind it.

by thechas

I am amazed at the vitriol that has found it's way into this thread.

So some do not agree with the positions Pope John Paul stated. Who are you to say that your position on a social or religious issue has more merit, or is better than that of Pope John Paul?

Can you name anyone in our lifetimes who has had an equally positive impact on as many people throughout the world as Pope John Paul II had?

Are you as willing to give of yourself to others as he was?

Do you have a "better" path to eternal salvation?

Are you as willing to listen to Pope John Paul's point of view as he would have been willing to listen to yours?

If you measure a man by the good he has done for his fellow man, how few of us can even come close to the stature of Pope John Paul II.

Please post any derogatory comments in the thread I started.

https://www.techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=8&threadID=171244&start=0

Let us keep this thread as a tribute to a great holy man.

Chas

by maxwell edison

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Very few messages have ever gotten under my skin like that one did. And while I've always admired Pope John Paul II, and have even mentioned him as worthy of being awarded the Nobel Peace Prize, I'm not what you would call a "practicing Catholic", nor do I agree with much of the Catholic doctrine and/or track-record.

But there's no denying, at least in my opinion, the greatness of Pope John Paul II and his dedication to loving and serving mankind.

What are those old sayings?

- Discretion is the better part of valor.

- If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.

- Just because you have a right to an opinion, that doesn't make it an obligation to voice it.

- There's a time and a place for everything.

In my opinion, and in this case, that guy should have kept his opinions to himself. (And he's not the only one.) It was in extreme poor taste - the worst example of crassness I've ever seen in these threads.

And you know what else? A lot of people around here are showing themselves to be people I just don't want to associate with. I probably wouldn't associate with some of them in person, I often wonder why I do here.

by hal 9000

The Dali Lama as well he is also cut from the same cloth as JP11 was and both have had a lasting effect on millions if not billions of people with exactly the same end in mind.

Col ]:)

by jellimonsta

I thought you were being facetious at first. I guess I should have clarified between HIV and AIDS. I know of people who are 'living strong' with AIDS too. Regardless, I still would not want to wish the disease on anybody.

by oz_media

My best friend's father had some problems after a divorce. He ended up losin ghis job as an acocuntant for a major airline, having no support from teh outside (as he had made it that way by shutting people out) and ended up living in Vernon Apartments, and the Brandiz (You MUST be familiar with that hole in life).

In no time, he was using herione, coke, etc intravenously and contrated Hep C and was diagnosed as HIV positive.

Being quite ill form previous issues, it took him very hard and he finally began to reach out for help.

Over tha last few years he has recovered somewhet, has been hospitalized several times but now stands quite strong, as strong as can be expected at his age and with his physical issues.

He actually came camping for a few days over here last week with my friend. He's not strong, has a broken hip and has broken his legs several times (earlier in his life) he is gettign older but he had great spirits about him and HIV has not become ful bloen aids yet, the Hep C is under wraps and he has a new lease on life.

You're right Jaqui, too many people know FAR too little about these issues. I see a good awareness in Vancouver because of Hastings street being focused on. But on the Island, there are still a great deal of people who would run screaming at the thought of being near someone with HIV or HEP C. I can only imagine what it must be like in even less effected areas or areas where it is kept quiet.

by maxwell edison

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....go back and read your own posts, compare them to mine - word for word - and you're not only a jerk, but an idiot as well.

by tbragsda

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I have, and you did. I said I would drop out of this conversation, only replying to direct attacks. Well, yours sounds like just that.

What about what I said set you off? Why such nasty attacking language? I?m offering a sincere apology, you still feel like fighting. I offered nothing that I feel deserves this level of nastiness. Take the apology or not, I don?t care, but I don?t understand your level of hostility.

TBR

by av .

I think he tried to touch people all over the world. I don't agree with all of his views, but he is the only Pope I can remember that was a real person. He made an effort to reach out to everyone.

I hope his successor will take it even further.

by oz_media

This could have been a three or four post segue and back onto the topic of the post. Instead it has become the dominant argument of the thread.

Your comments were out of line, you apologized and refrained from taking it further.

It seems to have been dragged out as the focus now ad has completely detracted form the intent of the original post, oh wel, happens al the time and I have done it too I suppose, I just try not to anymore.

This discussion is closed to new replies.