Right-wing extremists - R - us

wasn't that far right himself. "Right-wingers" are a target of both parties.

Do you have any idea why Leviticus is so universally ignored? It seems to me that even those who believe the Bible is the absolute Word Of God ignore that part of the Pentateuch. I've been trying to understand it for years and still can't.

Personally, I consider the Bible more history and guide to living than literal word of God. I do my best to live by "Love thy neighbor as thyself," but know that I fail more often than not.

[i]American politics is everything to Americans, we see the proof over and over again day in and day out. [/i]

What you see is the proof that American politics is everything to American news editors.

If you don't like what you're seeing, hearing, or reading, Oz, you have merely to change the channel/station/paper. Most of these sources are only noise anyway.

[i]Take GW for example, not all Canadians buy into GW, some think its the only way to survive.
This doesn't mean we must purposely oppose the idea and blatantly waste energy while others conserve it (simply to oppose/spite them), as the recent GW awareness hour recently showed US citizens do.

Instead, most people regardless of belief, understand that we must be more responsible with our resources and will do what they can personally to conserve energy. Its a common goal without the need for political agreement on GW (we just don't care about politics enough to let it blind our sight).[/i]

If you think most people in the US are purposely wasting energy based on what you saw on television, you're a fool. If you think people in the US aren't doing their best to conserve energy no matter the truth or fiction of GW, you're even more the fool.

[i]Political preference, does not play an important part in people's judgement of each other or each other's goals and objectives...[/i]

And, if you think I'm not laughing uproariously at the explicit hypocrisy in this statement, I'll give you the benefit of either CRS or blinders.

Broadcast media is a ratings game. Without people tuning in to hear the latest political gossip, they would change the format.

I tried to explain it to another peer here, who commented that politics don't run his life. He replied by using "an old joke"; within the first two lines, both 'characters' in the joke were clearly defined as republican and democrat, it was a political joke. I'd never heard it before, it was far from an OLD joke in any other nation expect one which places importance on politics.

ANY time I spend in America I find the people are great, but ALL they talk about is politics. Even subjects they don't think are political are all about politics.

Face it, Americans live and breathe politics. I live in a nation where just mentioning the words 'Prime Minister' will see you sitting alone in a heartbeat.

You even utter the words American, Bush, Obama, Iraq etc. and you will clear the room while people walk away while rolling their eyes and mumbling obscenities under their breath...I kid you not, this is a reality in the Canadian west. In central and eastern Canada you will find more people that accept political discussion as they feel they are close to the capitol and feel that they actually have an opinion that matters to anyone, but nothing compared to the US where it is the forefront of any meeting, any conversation and any relationship I have ever encountered there.

When I'm in the US, I have heard people talking about gun laws, US politics, 'fight, fight, fight, rah, rah, rah' etc. As soon as they find out I'm Canadian, the topic changes ot more passive political speech, more understanding and accepting, which cracks me up really.
It's like they have vociferous, local politics or "globally friendly" politics.

Americans all seem to know what party their family members, friends, employer etc supports. We've had peers here who have faked their political affiliation to be accepted at work. AT WORK!!!!

I don't know ANYONE'S political affiliation I work with, nobody would even admit to voting for a politician here, yet alone be proud of it. I don't know what party my mother voted for, brother sister, in-laws or even best friend. Nobody knows who each other supports, nor does it matter in the least.

The ONLY place I see so much political infatuation, amongst the PEOPLE, is in America. Anywhere else in the world no go. IN the UK you get some political speech but it is never pride of a leader, just disdain for the elected loser at any given time.

American politicians are so important they are given a house that is palacial with grounds and high tech helicopter service.

In Canada politicians live in modest homes, often in regular neighbourhoods where they grew up. In the UK its is #10 downing street, smaller than most North American condos.

In the US, it is pedestal, blind following and faith etc. The last time the world saw so much adoration and fanfare over a politician was Germany between 1939-1944.

The media spins it, true, but the only reason they CAN spin it is because people live and breathe it; the media feeds the public lead too, if its not considered newsworthy, it doesn't make the news.

In Canada they could broadcast political news all day on all stations too, just as all the US networks we get like to do, but nobody would tune in so they would lose ratings.

Face it, compared to the rest of the world, Americans make politics their lives. To me it just seems to be an all encompassing ,pathetic way to live.

To Americans, how would you know life any other way? It's how you are raised and seems normal to you.

You've never had any other way of looking at life than through political glasses.

The government could take 99.999% of my income, IF I took home what i needed to live my life the same as I do today, with the same amount of work put in.

Example, lets say i took home $5K/month, if they raised taxes another 40%, I would ensure I STILL take home $5K month, so it is my employer that pays teh inflation.

I still work 7hrs day/5 days week for the exact same amount of money, I couldn't care less what the government thinks, does , says, etc. until it directly effects ME.

Now if I was working for $5K net each month and the government made that $4K or even $4.9K, I'd stand up and be counted, NOW they are involved in my way of life.

Get it, unless it effects ME, I don't give a toss what they do on paper.

First of all, your constant bitching and whining about taxes has got the American people NOWHERE.

While I am accuse dot sitting down and letting them fleece me, I pay less taxes than you do and our taxes have gone down twice in three years, not up, as you seem to imply they do unless I get on my soapbox or riot.

I don't control the Canadian economy, I don't set taxes. If the government raises costs, I demand more pay, my boss raises prices or loses out of HIS pocket. I lose nothing therefore I don't care.

YOU have to pay more? So what? Earn more then, so it doesn't matter.

We have to raise prices? I do it several times a week, in fact today we either raise prices of lose another point and a half due to the dollar. Our pricing and economy is 100% directly based on the US dollar.

Your dollar dropping 3 cents has a FAR greater inpact on our daily lives and expenses than our government raising taxes 2%.

So don't even bother coming to me about moral issues surrounding taxation and how I let the government walk over me, I don't have any concern because no matter what THEY do, we are still better off than you guys and all you do is bitch and whine about your politicians. Lot of good that does you!

Max I often find you knowledgeable on a subject but your comments reduce you to a child, Tony I find you childish about a subject but your comments sidle around a completely different issue than you are adressing.
Often this means a three day debate until you finally get out what's really bothering you and it is irrelevant to the subject you started in about.

Both of you, face it, you claim that because I don't bitch and whine about politics all day that my government will simply walk on me and continue taking more and more until I get nothing, that is what happens when you don't stand up and shout.

In reality, our government has lowered taxes twice in the last few years, and removed federal tax altogether before that, I didn't bitch to anyone at all before all that took place automatically. Well, other than the typical, "damn taxes" part of life.

Federal tax (11%-13%) used to be hidden in the cost of all goods, they removed hidden federal tax and imposed a 5% Goods and services tax instead (now down from 6%). Our provincial tax is 7% and they are looking to reduce that to 6%(yay, you go guys!). I don't need to complain and protest, they are doing better without me whining, now I can live MY life, enjoy the sun, ladies, beers and racetrack, while you all bitch and whine about politics.

My annual income tax, is a single form to a single revenue agency and taxed about 2% lower than US taxes and far lower than the UK.
Still not sure what you guys feel I should protest here yet.

What is it I am supposed to be standing up against? Politicians reducing taxes? Paying lower income tax than others?

Or is it just for the fact that they are the government that I am supposed to expend my time and effort protesting them?

What am I supposed to protest?

"Stop lowering taxes!"

"Charge us more!"
Not very clever picket signs!

I don't get it. You both seem to think that if I don't protest the government they will keep taking more and more from me, however truth is they actually work to take less without my intervention.

So where do you come up with it?
Where are Canadians missing the boat by not complaining?

[i]I have ALWAYS said that Americans take their politics too seriously, they will openly ignore what they really feel is right simply to spite the opposing parties suggestion.[/i]

You've been hanging around with the wrong Americans. Most of us just want to be left alone to make a living. Have you considered that the common factor in all those political conversations with Americans was you?

[i]methinks your reading comprehension skills lack, if not you'd have seen this displayed countless times on TR and would have understood the full context of what I had said about Canadians not being politically driven the way you are.[/i]

Actually, Oz, there's no lack at all. I usually only read the first couple of paragraphs of your lengthier posts. If (or more usually when) I don't find a point there, I leave.

Political preference has no effect on my judgment of somebody's opinion. I'm more interested in whether it's reasonably well-thought and rational. Political opinions are by their very nature irrational...not unlike this thread, eh?

"If (or more usually when) I don't find a point there, I leave."

That is the problem, you get part of the picture. I write with afterthoughts and segues, the key point sometimes lands in the last sentence.

But I am not asking you to read my posts, if it doesn't interest you, don't read, however that does leave you unqualified to comment on my character and beliefs unless you understand my full viewpoints.

as for Americans and broad brushes, I have also said that, countless times, that the 'Americans' whom I speak of know exactly who they are and there are many peers here who see it too. In order to be more finite with such comments, my posts would grow even longer, thus pushing your interest and attention span to the limits.

It's not just me as the common factor though, having worked and stayed in the US for extended periods of time, having traveled more than 50-60% of the US states (more than most Americans for sure), I have seen heard and experienced the mindset of many Americans.

Americans, in general , and with the obvious exception of yourself and other like minds, thrive on politics.

While you may not see it,havign lived in and grown up with it, look at the political focus in other nations, it simply doesn't exist in contrast to America.

Ever news item, every forum (even unrelated ones) you name it, if politics is mentioned, Americans come flocking to the forum and the war begins. Americans here judge people based on political belief each and every day.

So, you are an exception to the average and there are many more just like you but it certainly isn't the norm.

then it's no skin off you nose if someone else does, is it? So why are you so concerned about what other people care about?

That "America" and "American" are in themselves political expressions?

And, that so long as you sit on those two, as opposed to, say, "being", that the experience can only be political?

As no one cares about Canadian politics, if he wants to argue with someone, he has to do it about American politics.

This is made clear because he doesn't discuss ideas, he berates others for not agreeing with him. The topic is irrelevant.

Simple, really.

Tony, all Canadians, and most other citizens around the world, look at US politics as Us politics effect the global economy. Most nations still trade in Petrodollars, therefore YOUR government's decisions have more of an effect on the global economy than ours do on our own economy.

The point I am debating here is that you feel that I don't complain about my tax levels, therefore I am getting walked on, Max even offered it up in greater detail

But you spend ALL of your time complaining abut taxation and how the government is ripping you off in order to support others. All my stand is, is that if you don't make enough money earn more. Simple solution.

YOu have NO control over taxes, you will always pay taxes, SOMETIMES, they will be used for what you support, other times they will not, leaving you to feel ripped off.

You pretend to have core values about who should get help and who shouldn't, but that is based on YOUR view of who warrants equal support. I know, those who earn it should not have to have it taken and given to those who did not, but who's to say how earned it and who didn't, is it set by your standards of 'earning' or someone else who did more work for their share than someone else did?

Your theory is simple theory, with no definitive structure (as are Max's) just basic outlining principal. You just want to decide on an individual level who warrants support and who does not, this whole concept of broad brush strokes does not fit the system you are suggesting as you will always be able to find reason to deny some funding and permit others based on your personal beliefs and loose definition.

As I've said, I DON'T care about taxes, but in this forum I am being called a lay down that will be walked on. You have BOTH asked me how much it will take before I become concerned, in which case I have offered my answer more than once, which you both seem to have issue with.
In my last post I detailed WHY I don't care about taxes, and while you suggest it leaves me open to be walked on and that I am laying down and letting them screw me, I STILL pay less than you do and without fighting against the system, they have worked to lower taxes further.

In short, both yours and Maxwell's 'theory' is proven incorrect.

As fr JD, while you think you are being clever, while only offering some typical BS comments, I was asked why I didn't care about taxes and accused of laying down and taking it from Canada. If you were involved in this portion of the discussion you might have had a better idea of what you were talking about.

Bottom line, YOU think I should care more about taxation, or else I am laying down, "when will I draw the line?" you ask?

My answer: Without any efforts or consideration on my part, my taxes go DOWN, when SHOULD I draw the line and start complaining?

From Maxwell:

[i]"In terms of percentages, what percentage would be too much? If the government takes 40 percent, you're content? What about 50 percent? What about 60 percent? What about 80 percent?

Where does your threshold of tolerance end?

The way it is now, you probably work three or four months for free - all for the benefit of giving the fruits of your labor to others. Hell, Oz, with your attitude, why not 100 percent to others ? I mean to the government?"[/i]

how about 26% and that's it, without my fighting and complaining, it has come down twice now.

From Tony:
[i]It doesn't, Max
Where does your threshold of tolerance end?
If they increase his tax, he'll demand his customers/employers pay more to make sure his take-home is what he wants.[/i]

You see, you feel that unless i fight, I will be taken advantage of until they take my entire income. As I have said, I base my net income goals based on what I need, if I need more because taxes go up, I get more and yes the trickle down effect does apply, as it always has done. Things are taxed more, they cost the end user more. That's commerce not a horror show.

But the bottom line is that BOTH of your theories are proven to be flawed.

You BOTH feel that I will lay down and let the government take ore and more. Well I laid down and enjoyed the sunshine, I went on holiday and didn't think twice about government, taxes or anything else to do with 'our system'.

I ignored them completely, and the result of not fighting and arguing and expending my efforts on such a nonsensical effort was that my taxes were reduced.

So much for your ideas and fruitless efforts.

Man, what a way to waste your life away!

Now I see the light!

These common Americans that I speak off, which I thought i had encountered over the last 30 years, who I thought I had read and heard for decades, are all in my head.

You talk as if I am living in some far off country and learning about America by the newspapers and CNN. I've travelled America and met more varied Americans than many if not most Americans have.

I have traveled other parts of the world too so I have a pretty good understanding of cultural differences, I am there every few weeks even these days (which costs a bundle in killed passport pages).

Whether I say America, Americans, USA, or even ocne upon a time an individual American....you will still argue the point.

If I had said all Muslims, or Iraqi', it would have been hoo-rah and that's that, full agreement with Oz as I am talking about someone else, who you all lump into one pile anyway.

Give your 'kin head a shake, Santee, the world sees you for who you really are even if you see otherwise.

All Americans? Nope.
A popular American mindset, yes

All of America? nope.
Common in America? Yes.

So if splitting hairs is your game, stick your head in the sand and pretend reality is false.

how did the taxes get high enough they NEEDED to be cut?

Must not have been paying attention then either, huh?

So, you and the world watch what goes on in the US because it effects you, but then think WE shouldn't be watching what goes on the the US because it effects us......

Clue, he knew you not....

[i]You pretend to have core values about who should get help and who shouldn't, but that is based on YOUR view of who warrants equal support.[/i]

EVERYBODY does! Exactly equal! In fact, a strict reading of our constitution requires exactly that!

[i]You just want to decide on an individual level who warrants support and who does not, this whole concept of broad brush strokes does not fit the system you are suggesting as you will always be able to find reason to deny some funding and permit others based on your personal beliefs and loose definition.[/i]

If you're asking me to give you something that belongs to me, you can bet your sweet ass I'm going to do everything in my power to determine for myself whether you're worthy or not! Sometimes I can't... that's why I don't give money to panhandlers.

[i]In short, both yours and Maxwell's 'theory' is proven incorrect.[/i]

You've proven nothing of the sort. You're claiming a higher moral ground when all you're doing is shirking your pretended responsibility to your fellow countrymen by demanding an increase in wages whenever you like to offset your costs (including taxes). All THAT is doing is increasing the burden on those who can't make such demands.

That's exactly what's happening in this country, The government lowers everybody's taxes except the wealthy, who have their raised. Seems sweet, doesn't it? Well, those wealthy, like you, have the ability to demand increases from the source of their income. The result is that every single price in every single store in my town has gone up by an amount EXCEEDING the amount that the "non wealthy's" tax went down by.

[i]So much for your ideas and fruitless efforts[/i]

You'd like to think that I (and others think so... But I (and an increasing number of others) can see your vested interest. You're on the top of the hill... and see fit to throw boulders down at anyone who dares try to climb, while "forcing" your "care" on them.

Excuse me while I throw up!

[back from the puke-fest]

[i]Man, what a way to waste your life away! [/i]

Nah, the waste would be if I didn't do everything in my power, meager though it be, to expose the pretenders of the world who would use subterfuge to throttle the opportunities of others.

You come up with this ridiculous assumption based on what I said, and yuo know FULL WELL that isn't what i meant or was trying to say, you just troll along with your games as always.

As far as our taxes being too high, our taxes were inline with yours, which was not an issue of debate for most people. Then we heard that the government was lowering the existing provincial tax and GST too.
it was a bonus, that we didn't have to fight for or argue about each day, in fact I don't ever remembering it being a topic of discussion beyond a simple "wow, double taxes on purchases!" when buying a larger ticket item.

People misunderstood GST too, which is why some complained. They never saw FST, which at 11% was automatically added to all good in Canada.I remember being in a sales job in the 80's where I always had to add 11% FST if they didn't have a tax number for it. But it was invisible to the buyer, whereas the 6% GST was added at the point of sale, making it more noticeable, even though there was less tax in the long run anyway.

Either way, a few people whined about GST the rest realized we were paying less but the end result is that every new elected party offers tax cuts on PST and GST, it's just what they do, as they can't really campaign on safety concerns and war promises.

So YOU suggest that taxes went down because we were irresponsible enough, and not active enough, thus letting them get too high to begin with. In actuality they were lowered with GST, then lowered again.

Somehow we won and didn't fight for it. I guess you'd have to live outside of America to comprehend such things though, oh AND we get subsidized medical. But one day we'll learn how to do it your way and pay more, while running up greater debts.

As for you paying attention to the government, I didn't say you shouldn't at all, those were again your false words based on your false assumptions.

I said that too many Americans spend too much time focused on politics. It seems to consume many lives, such as yours, and takes up way too much of people's time. There are FAR more important issues for Americans to focus on, pushing for resolve in Iraq, getting back to finish fixing Afghanistan again, sorting out your banks loans etc.

Instead, all we hear form America is how everyone else is causing the problem, how the government steals money form your pockets when you are not looking and starts giving it to people who didn't earn it, and how the government shouldn't be involved in sorting out companies that it gives tens of millions to in order to help them stay afloat and try to change the horrific state your nation has ended up in.

In Canada, people stick together, left or right makes no difference, we all have the same focus but with small differences that are easily ignored in the grand scheme of things.

We don't bash Democrats for being tree huggers or trying to steal out money form us, we don't blame the government for helping out our fellowman that can't support himself. we just wake up, enjoy the day as best we can and live our lives in peace.

People around the world say Canadians have a reputation for being nice and kind, softhearted, as a whole.

Why? We face taxes like you do, but lower taxes than you do.

We face budget and economic issue, just as you do.

We face trade issues as you do.

We address terrorism and take new precautionary measures, just as you do.

We just do it all as a whole and not as two independent sides set on opposition regardless of if we actually agree or not.

You live in a different world, one that looks worse and worse each day and all you do is sit behind your PC's and bitch and whine about the government doping this or that and pandering to 'the other side'.

Every 4-8 years this board changes focus, if Republicans are in office, we hear how fantastic the government is and how nobody else could possibly understand their motives and abilities.

When the Democrats are in power, we hear about how the government is to be scared of, avoid and fight against, they steal from people, they give your money away, they over charge you because everything they do imparts a new tax on you etc.

Face it, you're just never happy, what a way to live, god bless America!

Again in circles until you realize you make no sense and then backpeddle to imply you meant something else.

[i]"EVERYBODY does! Exactly equal! In fact, a strict reading of our constitution requires exactly that![/i]

So as per your Constitution, and your own core beliefs, EVERYONE gets treated equally, which includes, homeless, jobless, sick etc. EVERYONE, as outlined in your Constitution, the only document Americans treat with as much faith as the bible, if not more.

My comment was that OBVIOUSLY you don't feel EVERYONE should be treated equally, ie: support, housing, food, welfare, tax relief, medical you name it EVERYONE gets the same.

But now you suggest that EVERYONE SHOULD be treated equally, "In fact, a strict reading of our [your] constitution requires exactly that!"

So, you proved me wrong; I thought you were in it for yourself and all others who work and pay into the system but nobody else.

And then you say, [i]"I'm going to do everything in my power to determine for myself whether you're worthy or not![/i]

Okay, so now YOU decide who gets it and who doesn't, based on YOUR beliefs and YOUR interpretation of a 200 year old document.
(now it IS starting to sound like the bible!)

SO what is it, everyone gets treated equally, EVERYONE as your Constutution outlines, except: Those who do not work or pay into the system AND those who are unemployed or disabled (within reason ask Tony for advice on specific cases)AND those who YOU think shouldn't be covered by such a system.

Now back to my original point, why are YOU the one who decides what is right and what is wrong? Why not your neighbour? Because he may feel differently or have a different impression of what the Constitution and government's responsibility is?

your theory is flawed form the onset. "Everyone, but....."

Now someoen else will say "Everyone, but...." and have a different list of exceptions.

That's my point, what YOU feel is right, others will feel is wrong. What others feel is right, you will feel is wrong.

Bottom line nobody is happy and everyone will continue to fight withing your own borders, creating more problems for Americans and the global economy than foreign nations or terrorism can ever cause you.

And you think this is the most important part of being American to focus your efforts on. No wonder everyone doubts the American educational system, you guys are all over the place and trying to sort out a government instead of worrying about each other and sorting out yourselves.

and for someone who feels the government should play a much smaller part in your life, you sure like to point fingers at the government and expect THEM to change in order to fix things.

"Only in America"; that goes a long way even today.

[i]My comment was that OBVIOUSLY you don't feel EVERYONE should be treated equally, ie: support, housing, food, welfare, tax relief, medical you name it EVERYONE gets the same.
[/i]

Everyone should be treated equally BY THE GOVERNMENT.

[i]Okay, so now YOU decide who gets it and who doesn't, based on YOUR beliefs and YOUR interpretation of a 200 year old

Blast music all all hours of the night. Turn their house into a medical marijuana dispensary. Turn it into a 7-11.

How about if ALL your neighbors decided to let their houses become completely decrepit. So much so that the value of your own home plummeted.

Yes, I'm sure that if this happened that you would be completely happy that the value of your house fell and would not complain a bit about the hippies next door not mowing their lawn, or the neighbors parking broken down cars on their lawns. Breeding chickens that annoy you at all hours of the day.

I'm quite sure you would support them with all your might. That's their right, isn't it? To bring down the value of your home by exercising their freedom? A man's home is his castle, right?

Painting one's home the color he wants just PALES in comparison of the right of one to do what they want on their own property.

Right?

Damn...I'm glad you agree about a man's right to do with his property which he will.

Good on you!

How do you get this rant from "These groups are a bane of my existence..."? Are you trying to tell us that the neighborhood association has more authority than the law? Or do you just wish they did?

Neighborhood associations are gathering places for the small-minded, obsessive-compulsive, and anal-retentive. They add nothing of value and attempt to take away much.

As long as what I do on my property does not break the law, [u]you have no right[/u] to tell me what I can and cannot do.

[i]So you agree that your neighbors should be able to do what they wish Blast music all all hours of the night. Turn their house into a medical marijuana dispensary. Turn it into a 7-11.
[/i]

Anything that does not harm another, asshole.

Why don't you go punch yourself in the mouth... My treat!

I should learn to read better, I thought you were talking to me and now I have a fat lip and a broken nose! :D

My slave...and I'll paint him any colour I want! :D

straight back to the start again, didn't even get to enjoy Community Chest, or Free Parking.

So your government must see to all people equally.

You feel that you SHOULD pay some taxes, I assume those that YOU personally agree to paying, whether or not they are taxes others feel THEY should pay. You get the say in that I suppose, there's no other way to do it unless you feel people should be given a list of optional taxes and just pay those that they deem suitable as individuals.

So the government is allowed to take you tax money, they have to afterall, but they should have to spend it on all people equally. Meaning some people that paid more will get less and others paid less but everyone gets equal treatment, the government can't play favorites.

So now you are saying that you'll pay taxes, if YOU get to decide where they are spent, but the government is obligated to spend that money on every individual citizen equally.

And that doesn't hurt your brain?

... I like you more :)

solving disputes between/among states. Anything else the states, or the people themselves can do better/cheaper/faster.

How does it feel, when the shoes on the other foot.

Hypocrite.

"Love thy neighbor as thyself" is a pretty good guide for behavior, providing your techniques of love are not vain, overindulgent, strangling, or exploitative. Lots of people are lousy at love. If my neighbor were a complete self-loathing neurotic with suicidal overtones, I wouldn't want him loving me as he loved himself.

Likewise, you have to pick your neighbors with some discretion before you offer your openhanded love, and withdraw as much of it as safety requires. Could you love Osama Bin Laden as yourself? Could you help his sad, anguished nephew get that scholarship to pilot's school that he's been dreaming about ever since he was a cute little boy at the madrassa?

Jesus and all the other wise fellows in the Bible have plenty to tell us. It's useful to our moral lives; the truth of it shakes us up and reminds us to re-examine the justice of our actions when we take so much for granted. However, the relationship between man and god is necessarily different from that of man and man, and that is different from the relationships of man to community and man to state. Human affairs do not glide frictionlessly over moral surfaces; they encounter bumps and involve compromises, and evolve as the complexities of social relationships increase.

I don't scorn the Bible. I have to ignore it when life demands. Knowing how to honor God and morals while running a successful society on the surface of the actual earth is a balancing act of high difficulty.

You accomplish in four paragraphs -- written well and tightly reasoned -- an unassailable deduction from a fatally assailable premise.

[i]Likewise, you have to pick your neighbors with some discretion before you offer your openhanded love, and withdraw as much of it as safety requires. Could you love Osama Bin Laden as yourself? Could you help his sad, anguished nephew get that scholarship to pilot's school that he's been dreaming about ever since he was a cute little boy at the madrassa?[/i]

Love without a large view, isn't love.
I don't allow myself to intentionally harm others, allowing others to intentionally harm others isn't loving them as I love myself.

I can love bin Laden without helping him in his nefarious schemes.

The Biblical concept of love is not what we in America appear to understand as love (paltry, self-absorbed pretense at something small).

Love is not just flowers and candy. It is to seek out and promote that which is in the best interest of the object of your love. That can at times involve acts or words that others might see as "pushy". It can also at times involve not condoning an action, or not protecting the loved one from the consequences of an action.

That's where I am.... I love a lot of people... most of whom I don't even know.