Discussion Locked

Should D. Rumsfeld resign -

0 helpful
43 replies
Closed to new repliesThis discussion is closed. It stays readable, but it takes no new replies.

After Rumsfeld address to the committee today do you feel he should resign or continue to try and clean up the mess left behind by Clintons 8 years as the commander.

First - He must Stay - finish cleaning up the mess left in the Pentigon by the Clintons -

Second - What these men did was understandable but shouldn't of been done. We (the members of the coalation) are better than the Iraqi's that do that to our men and women. The damage these 10 or 12 men did to the hundreds of thousands men and women who are doing good - demands a court martial with a dishonorable discharge.

Third - to all those that would vote for John Kerry - he has confessed to committing war crimes against the Vietnam people in his 4 months of duty there. Hum - Mr. Kerry, I think you should resign from being the Democratic Presidentail Canidate don't you! How can foriegn powers trust you when you have already committee crimes against humanity!

Interesting - Most Democratics don't care - it was OK to do that in Vietnam, because there leaders did it. Kerry was one of the leaders!

43 replies

by jamesrl

I will leave the issue of Rumsfeld's resignation to other wags, except to say - where does the buck stop?

As for the use of torture and humiliation being "understandable"(your word), what are you nuts? Since when? If the roles were reversed, would you think it understandable for american capitves to be treated in a similar manner? Add to that the message from most intelligency agencies that its fairly unreliable in terms of getting information - someone who is being tortured could have a psychotic break and essentially lose coherance altogether. You can't get good intel from someone who has lost their mind.

Enlighten me - what war crimes did Kerry admit to? As to Kerry having been a leader in Vietnam, he lead a platoon, not an army - he can only be responsible for what he did. He didn't make policies, strategies or battle plans.

James

by jimhm

Lets see - you see your bothers and sister (doesn't matter which country - if you are on the same side) - burnt and hanging from a bridge while those that did it dance and fire guns.

I guess - you wouldn't want a little revenge? I guess if you seen your daughter raped - you wouldn't want something nasty to happen to the person that did it.

I guess - you don't understand - Understandable - I guess you don't understand what it takes to see you friend killed when he was next to you - I guess you just don't understand - war - and what happens in it..

A leader of a Platoon - Isn't a leader - you are a liberal aren't you. I guess you manager or supervisor at the office (who may only have 5 or 6 reporting to them) isn't a leader then also. So how high up do you want it to go? And I guess you missed his discussion about his war crimes of touching villages - firing on civilians - I will have to dig up that link again.

Bud turn off those video games - they will rote your brain James -

by oz_media

Well Jim you Do have some form of a point here but it unfortunately shows the same mentality that must be stopped as it leads to such horrors.

"I guess - you wouldn't want a little revenge?"
Of course you would WANT revenge, but can you have it? Only in the form of letting the government deal with them. To lose your 'cool' and mimick the same atrocities is simply unprofessional and unwarrented. If we killed everyone who ruined our lives or caused us pain, the world woulf be a quiet place with plenty of room ni no time. These are SOLDIERS, TRAINED military personnel, arguably the best in the world, they hare said to have the BEST training, the best weapons, the best intelligence, the best leadership, the best support etc.

These are not children or thugs on a revenge mission, or are they?

There is NO excuse whatsoever, to claim they have been subjected to atrocities is irrelevant, they are SUPPOSED to be trained Military Police. Now I know it is commonly known that the US soldiers cannot police but this is simply going WAY too far.

I hope that this comes out exactly as predicted with every TV channel airing these people as they face judgement, this should ruin their chances at leading ordinary lives, they should be publically placed on trial no different than OJ, and I am quite sure they will be. In fact this is supposed to be the first Court Marshall televised, get the popcorn.

"I guess - you don't understand"

Well nobody will inderstand war unless they are directly in a war. As for having a friend die beside you, I have, not in war but laying in the middle of the street at 3AM with everyone just crossing and walking away so as not to be involved.

This doesn't make it acceptable or even undersatdnable for people to react this way. If they are not able to muster the mental strentgth to conduct themselves accordingly in a war, then why the hell were they given a gun or the authority to POLICE in the first place, what is it, ANYONE can join the army if you're fit enough to kill? Lets find at least a few that are MENTALLY fit enough to kill insted.

by nd_it

I just read today that Bremer knew about the abuses back in January, before the murder of the four contractors. Could have the abuse increased after the murder of the contractors? Sure. But that doesn't make it right, and these soldiers should be punished for it. We are no better than the thugs that did this to these fine people who wanted to help the Iraqi people. The US needs to show the Iraqi people that we won't stand for this behavior and show that we are not barbarians.

by cactus pete

Abuses like those committed against the detainees were reported over a year ago. The complaint that many Iragi have is that no one is doing a thing about the mistreatment of the prisoners.

I guess you can understand their need for revenge and stringing up those burnt contractor bodies then.

I can't understand either side, myself.

by jardinier

"Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the
Lord" (Romans 12:19 and many other
references in the Bible.)

I have found this a very useful maxim to live by,
because if you seek revenge, you start a new
instance of bad karma for yourself.

I ABSOLUTELY think Brumsfield should
resign; he has withheld information from the
President as well as keeping the public in the
dark.

As he has said that he accepts full
responsibility for the atrocities, then perhaps
charges should be laid against him.

by jamesrl

No, I have never served in war. I have a minor physical ailment which prevents me, though I did try to sign up for the militia when I was younger. I always dreamed of being a fighter pilot. I do have alot of friends in the military. My father in law is a retired Colonel. Many in my family served in both World wars. I also have family in police departments and in Fire stations.

I reject such simple labels as liberal. I am fiscally conservative, but not a social conservative in any sense. I had been a member of Canada's Progressive Conservative party for years, but not currently. The best US president that never was, was John Anderson.

I am well aware of what goes on in war. I am also aware that the whole point of boot camp is to instill some discipline so that troops will follow(legal) orders.

I highly doubt that members of the military police battalion charged with guarding the prison saw action, or saw their buddies killed. They were perhaps affected by the deaths of others, but surely no more so than the front line units involved in the action. And frankly, the fact that they were poorly trained - didn't know the rules of the geneva convention, didn't know the policies of the army towards prisoners - is a fault of their officers and leadership. Even if they didn't know what they were doing was wrong, they should have known, and that lack of training is a serious deficiency - they were military police, thats the kind of training they need.

I am a leader. I have managed as many as thirty staff and managed multi million dollar projects. Both in business and in other areas of life, someone has to be held accountable. It wasn't one person who acted out, it was systematic, so the leadership either knew or ought to have known.

James

by maecuff

There is a world of difference between seeking revenge because some 'contractors' got killed and your daughter being raped. First of all, I'd be willing to bet that none of the people who abused the iraqi prisoners even KNEW the hired hands, that is quite a far cry from wanting revenge against someone who harmed your child. And really, what does video games have to do with anything?

by wordworker

If Rummie doesn't resign or get fired, SOMEONE should... I find it hard to believe the President didn't know anything about the pictures until he heard about them on TV. This is tantamount to no one "connecting the dots" about the terrorists taking flying lessons. Gee, nobody thought the abuses in the prison were important enough to funnel it up to the top of the chain of command? Somebody's either lying or is really really stupid.

I have to admit I agree with the senator(?) who suggested tearing down the one prison where most of prisoner abuse (and before that, Saddam's abuses) took place. It would be a great symbol of change for the better, in my mind anyway.

I also find it notable all the Iraqis gathering and protesting outside that prison. Who says they can't learn democracy??? They're exercising their rights to free speech by protesting, a right they didn't enjoy at all during 35 years under Saddam.

by oz_media

I think demolishing the prison would be a greater show of the removal of terror than pulling down Saddam's statue was.

That would be something for T-Shirts and bumper stickers all over the middle east (no I'm not looking at marketing opportunities already, I'll let the US corporate giants do that).

It reminds me so much of the Death Camps during WWII, except on a MUCH MUCH MUCH smaller scale.

These places WILL be destroyed eventually, so why not do it now and show some true turning of the tides.

by jimhm

Yea - you can't understand Bush didn't know these 12 men/women were doing this. Hum - that would be like saying - I don't understand why the CEO doesn't know what I do every day, as a low level employee.

They have bigger things to worry about than the daily activity of a foot solders - No lets take on the firing of Rump - that would be like if you screwed up and lost a miltimillion dollar account - the CEO fired the CFO for it. Get real - the ones in charge are accountable - the Lt - the Capt - the Lt Col - Col - General ... I would say up to the Lt Col...

So get real - compare it to your office - use that thing God put in between your ears and think - don't just parrott the liberal media..

by mrbill-

Yes they do have to be concerned with the daily activity of foot soldiers, they are responsible for laying down the rules of engagement those troops have to adhere to. They knew about those actions months ago and the Prez never found out. Give me a break.

If you blow a multimillion-dollar account and the CFO was involved with covering it up so the stockholders don?t find out and then it gets leaked what does the CEO do then? What if the loss of funds causes your stock to fall on the world market? Is the CFO not accountable? We have civilian leadership of the Military so it can be held accountable to the US citizens. If that leadership fails in its duty then it MUST go. Just throwing the lower troops to the wolves is not enough, though they do need to face trial for their actions, leadership needs to show its true colours. Rumsfeld will lose what little confidence the GIs have in him if he does not do something. He needs to be a man and not a politician.

by dc_guy

One of the main purposes served by an organized society with rules (whether it's a modern civilization or a Neolithic tribal group) is to break the "cycle of revenge." No one and nothing can prevent you from having the feeling of outrage and hatred that comes from seeing a loved one killed willfully. It's genetically programmed in all social species, and in ALL warm-blooded animals when it concerns their own family.

If you catch someone killing your kin and you react violently out of instinct, most of us would cut you some slack. But if due to circumstances you get past those first moments and society is able to intervene, it's their duty to prevent you from exacting revenge.

Because what happens if you kill someone because of what they did to you? That person has friends and family, and regardless of what he did to you, they will feel the sense of instinctive outrage and they will want to seek revenge against you. It's the "Hatfields and McCoys," where ten generations later people are still killing each other and nobody knows or cares how it started.

Society -- whether an industrial civilization or a tribe of pastoral nomads -- must step in and apply the rule of law to the situation, to ensure that a culture of violence does not overwhelm their attempts to create a peaceful environment where people in neighboring societies can live safely.

If society abdicates that responsibility -- if the people who are supposed to be enforcing the rules engage in acts of revenge -- the whole system breaks down.

People who are entrusted with the care of prisoners -- the care of people who are suspected of committing acts of evil -- have the key responsibility to break the cycle of revenge. They must be stoic and neutral and wait for their society to rule on the guilt of the suspects and on their punishment. If jailers indulge in vengeance-taking -- even if, as in this case, it is less than lethal vengeance -- they are literally destroying society.

Yes, I'm sensitive to the argument that they saw their own brethren treated like livestock, something that one doesn't expect to see in a human settlement that dares to call itself a "city." Yes, I understand that these people are soldiers who were deliberately trained to be less sickened by violence and quicker to commit acts of violence than most of us would be expected or permitted to be. Yes, I know that jails are supposed to be run by people who are trained to run jails, not by MPs who are trained to break up bar fights and drag home drunken soldiers.

So I'm not prepared to sit in judgment on the individuals who perpetrated these atrocities. Let a court martial deal with it. Let the facts and extentuating circumstances be known and let some people who failed abysmally to execute their responsibilities and thereby humiliated our country be judged by people who are qualified to make that judgment. I won't second-guess them.

After all, as a nearly unwavering pacifist and foe of capital punishment, I can't help whispering, "yeah, but they didn't kill them."

What I do sit in judgment of is a society that allowed this to happen. We knew long ago that the US was going to have to administer Iraq in the role of an occupying force, not just a friendly bunch of helpers. We knew that would include having to administer jails located in places where the local population might be hostile to us and the inmates might raise the ire of even a trained and disciplined soldier. Why, therefore, in an operation so well organized that it provides hot meals, e-mail, and first-class medical service, didn't anybody foresee the need to provide trained jailers?

Whoever is responsible for that screw-up has a lot of explaining to do. It gives the impression that this occupation is run so as to only satisfy the needs of the occupiers, and that the people being occupied are, indeed, regarded as mere livestock. I don't want my country run by people who think that way.

by oz_media

The very first thing I would do is kill the bastard that killed my buddy. Then again, I'm not charged with ensuring their safety nor am I a trained military officer.

Even as a security forman, I saw LOTS of security guys who would put the boots to someone who may have hurt another security member. They lasted about 4 minutes after I saw it happen, enough time to place their radio back in the charger on the way out.

This isn't, or at least shouldn't be, an issue of people acting instinctively. The whole idea of breaking a man down in basic and building him to be a marine, airman or whatever the career choice is, is the entire reason that soldiers are inexcusable for these acts. They are SUPPOSED to be mentally and physically different than mainstream society. Part of this training is focused on reactionary issues. Just because someone is firing a gun at you, you still need to wait for the order to return fire, this is training. Something the US spends countless billions of your dollars on.

If these peolpe are accepted when they act inapropriately like a common citizen, then why the need for training beyond how to fire a gun?

Whatever happened to an elite force with a higher ability to work under such stresses than ordinary street folk?

Let's not equate them to the guy down the road, they are supposed to be far beyond that mentality, whether or not they are your brothers or sisters, they are trained military police, or at least we thought they were.

The public stoning they will receive is going to make for some interesting TR discussions I'm sure.

by jardinier

as US soldiers have committed these
atrocities, then obviously at least some
Americans are barbarians.

Please let me be the first to know if you hear of
any atrocites committed by Australlian
personnel in Iraq.

Unfortunately -- and I have started a separate
discussion on this issue -- the credibility of
America rests on these actions, and how they
are dealt with.

by thechas

If Donald Rumsfeld were to resign, it would show that the Bush Administration has some integrity and is willing to take responsibility for the actions that they precipitate.

If Rumsfeld were to resign, it would defuse the prisoner mis-treatment issue both internationally and domestically.

If Rumsfeld were to resign, it would result in reduced US news coverage of the prisoner mis-treatment.

Finally, perhaps the best reason for Donald Rumsfeld to not resign, is that his resignation would improve the chance that George W. Bush might be re-elected in November.

Chas

by antipodes

At least Clinton didn't start an unwinnable war which has brought world-wide shame and disgrace upon America.

by zlitocook

Well Mr. Noodle, sorry G.Bush is suppost to know every thing to do with the military. He has alot of people telling him whats going on. Should Rumsfeld be the scape goat. Well its an election year, lets get rid of as many people as we can. And what did we do about the people who were killed and pulled through the streets naked or beheaded?

by worker bee

But not because of what happened at the prison.

Before the war the Army chief told Congress that it would take at least 250,000 troops to occupy Iraq, twice what Rumsfeld was saying we would need. Rumsfeld responded by driving the Army general out of the service. Because he ignored the best advice of his own experts it is likely that hundreds of soldiers have needlessly died because of Rumsfeld's arrogance, stupidity, and incompetence of command.

by jimhm

You know I wish these liberals would use that thing God put between there ears and think - rather than just parrotting the liberal media.

First - they are estimates - and I guess all your estimates at work (oh thats right your a worker bee - never had that responsibility safest in the hole than on the ground hum) - have been 100% on the money. Never over estimated or underestimated - and I guess they fired every one of your managers that missed an estimate.

Yea - OK - Sure - Right - And I got ocean front properity for sale in Az.

by mlayton

...nobody is saying he should be fired because his estimates are off, but the arrogance of not listening to an Army chief with recent in-field experience makes you wonder why ever bring in experts to testify if all you want to hear is someone to support your own suppositions? What a waste of taxpayers money if you aren't going to take their input under advisement.

by worker bee

My estimates are based on the best information I have available. If I am fortunate enough to have access to the advice of an expert I listen to it. If I ignore that advice and a fiasco is the result then I expect to be fired.

Rumsfeld reminds me of many managers I have had to deal with. He came up with an impossibly low budget in both people and money and then expected his staff to do the impossible. When some of his staff tried to tell him it could not be done he fired them and listened only to the people who told him what he wanted to hear. Now when it all goes bad he wants to dodge responsibility. Of course the difference here is that when a manager of an IT department does this nobody dies. Even now Rumsfeld claims that if his commanders in the field need more troops all they have to do is ask, when in fact these commanders know what happened to the last general who said he needed more troops.

Rumsfeld and his gang of yes-men should be fired and replaced with someone who is willing to listen to their commanders and is willing to admit that they don't know every dammned thing.

by jimhm

If you read the first post - I said what happened was understandable but should of never happened. Got a response back that they didn't understand the understandable part - I explained it -

I didn't say we had a right to do it ... please read Oz

by mlayton

...by what has happened here.

"What these men did was understandable but shouldn't of been done. We (the members of the coalation) are better than the Iraqi's that do that to our men and women. The damage these 10 or 12 men did to the hundreds of thousands men and women who are doing good - demands a court martial with a dishonorable discharge. "

So "it was understandable" for these men means it is equally as "understandable" for the Iraqis who hear of these atrocities and likewise seek revenge on Americans...

Through the actions of these few men, ee have entered a cycle that has no end, and yet has the potential to affect generations to come. How sad.

by jimhm

You are correct about the Iraqies - if you look at it from their point of view - from their up bringing - from their way of life - from their education. Americans are the devil - What they did is understandable - Not Right.

Same with the solders in control of the prison - understandable, they see their bro's and sis's - burnt bodies hung over a bridge - while those that did it celbrate like someone on a hunting trip - they want a little pay back - Understandable - not right.

We are a civilized group of nations - but the problem is we are human - and emotional beings. And when you see your brothers and sisters like that - your first instinces are PAY BACK - later you calm down and think ... Look what the US did when Japan bombed Perl to the American Japaneese citizens - Wrong - did they do it to Germans (only to the Nazi party members) to the Italians - No -

Not Right - understandable - look at the way they made the Japanees out - the Jap - the lowest form of life - kill the Jap - Not Right but understandable.

Same with the Japaneese - they were rased that those that surrendered were lowest form of life. So they treated POW's that way. Wrong - not right - understandable.

Every ones nations value system is different - religons are different - understandable - and some times Wrong ...

by maxwell edison

.
Despite the huge and powerful military machine we maintain, I believe that our ideals is our strongest weapon. That's what won the Cold War against the Soviets, and that's a vital component of winning the war on terrorism. And regardless of whether you think the action in Iraq is against a tyrant dictator or is an extension of the war on terrorism, I don't think anyone will deny that the middle-east is largely void of peace and tranquility, equal and civil rights, and hope for a future where people live with freedom and personal liberty. And while it might take our military to plant the seeds of Liberty, it's the dedication to our very own ideals that will ultimately win over the people of the middle-east. Without that, it's a lost cause.

This has certainly dealt a severe blow to the efforts that would make our ideals clearer to many who may not have understood them. If one of those soldiers had blown up one of our very own installations, it would have had less of an impact than one little photo. This makes the USA look no better than those against whom we're fighting. All the justification in the world is not good enough for us to violate our own ideals. We just don't do that. Our military has established a precedent for helping our defeated enemy, such as Germany and Japan in the 40s, not beating him down. And although this certainly is a setback, it's not a "deal-breaker", so to speak. It's usually not the problems that derail an effort, but the ineffective dealing with the problem that does. If we handle this problem honestly, and in a manner consistent with our ideals, we'll weather this problem.

Who should be held responsible? The place to start is the highest ranking officer, either military or civilian - or both, who either approved the actions or turned a blind-eye to it. Start at the top of that particular chain of command and work down to evaluate who else may be culpable. (We may, however, have to start at the bottom and work up to see how high it goes.) My guess is that it would be a either an over-zealous high ranking civilian intelligence officer and/or a field grade Army officer, a Major,Lt. Colonel, or full bird Colonel, looking to make a name for him/her self by uncovering some valuable intelligence information. I can't imagine a Brigadier General or higher knowing about this, considering the potential damage it could cause.

As far as Rumsfeld taking the heat for this, that's just silly. What's the worst thing he did? Well, from my perspective the only thing Rumsfeld did was try to do some damage control and/or fail to notify the President the minute he found out about it. In the case of the former, what would you expect him to do? Damage control in cases like this is not only understandable, but should be expected. In the case of the latter, it's up to the President to determine if Rumsfeld should go because he didn't share the information as soon as the President thought he should have. The only people calling for Rumsfeld's resignation are either politically motivated or are unaware of the purpose of the President's Cabinet. IF GWB felt betrayed or otherwise let-down by his Secretary of Defense for keeping him in the dark, then that's his call, and only one he can make. Any President has a right to keep whomever he or she pleases in the various cabinet positions. They serve as advisors to the President, and as a go-between for various government agencies and departments. Rumsfeld occupies a cabinet position, and he serves at the pleasure of the President, not the electorate.

Personally, my guess is that Rumsfeld might be one of the best people to get to the bottom of this. He's determined; he's focused; he can be very tenacious; and, I would venture to surmise, that he also feels betrayed by those who approved the infractions. If he gets fired, the best person to deal with it may not be in a position to do so. If I were one of the White House Spin Misters (long I), I would coin the term, the wrath of Rummy, to describe how he's going to deal with it. And heaven help the field-grade officer (or whomever) who let this happen.

That's my take on it.

by maxwell edison

.
There are many cases in history when the political machine did not listen to the Army experts. General George S. Patton, after all, advised the politicians to continue fighting eastward in 1945, but changing the enemy from the Nazis to the Communists.

Moreover, the "worker bee" who suggested that the Bush administration did not listen to the Army chief who suggested an occupying force of 250,000 would be necessary in Iraq, did not tell the "rest of the story". He's referring to Gen. Eric Shinseki, the sitting Army chief when Bush was elected. It was another military expert, Gen. Pete Schoomaker, who disagreed with General Shinseki, not Bush and Rumsfeld, necessarily.

One General says one thing, another General suggests another. Who's right? I suppose "worker bee" is the real expert, and everyone should listen to him.

by oz_media

Now I am not accusing YOU of blame shifting here but it seems ALL too easy for the one person responsible for key decisions regarding the entire free world is not expected to accept blame for ANY decisions in the White House?!?

When we were discussing WMD, Bush was off the hook. "He never said that" his advisors may have but NOT GWB. Blame the advisors, not GWB.

Now when it comes to the estimated troop strength needed to effectively occupy Iraq, that is also not GWB's fault, he was just misinformed, talk to the generals not the President.

So I must ask, WHAT if anything, IS the president responsible for.
It seems that unless he makes decisions and comments directly, anything can be said to be someone else's fault. Is it not the President's JOB to ensure his sources are accurate and working in the best interests of the American people? Do these people not WORK for the president and the country also, are these people so far off the main beaten path of the administration that the President simply bows to them and meets all their requests and demands?

Why is you r president never held accountable for actions that HE is supposed to be in charge of?

Before we remove the president from ALL blame of anything America does, should we not ask ourselves, what IS his job if he isn't held accountable for anything to begin with?

If that's the case, sign me up, I'm running for president. If it is found out after I'm elected that I'm not even American, no problem, nobody told me and it's not my fault.

by maxwell edison

.
I'm no military expert, nor are you, nor is our "worker bee" friend. None of us knows what troop strength is necessary to carry out the desired mission.

I was only "sugesting" that one military expert disagreed with another. Therefore what? (One of my favorite questions.) Therefore the president has a tough job knowing which expert's advice to follow. And as far as what the president is responsible for, I'm sure if you were to ask him where the buck stops, he'd say right in his own lap - and I agree.

by mrbill-

Gen Schoomaker is from the Special Ops background while Gen Shinseki is from the mechanized world. What kind of action was Iraq? It was a maneuver or mechanized war, something Shinseki knew more about. Who had more expertise on the subject? Who do you listen to? So what kind of deal did Gen. Schoomaker make with the Bush administration? He is the 35th Army chief who happens to have taken over after he disagreed with Gen. Shinseki his predecessor causing his dismissal. I may not be an expert on the US Military, I only spent 21 years in uniform, but this whole affair smells fishy to me.

by maxwell edison

.
This administration will not allow itself to lose focus of what it's trying to achieve in Iraq and the middle-east.

This administration will find the opportunity that presents itself as a result of this problem.

This administration will not allow the dishonorable actions of a few tarnish the noble and honorable efforts of the many.

by jimhm

After the beheading of a non-combatent can you imagin what has been happening to Military POWs - why do you think Jessica has been so quit - doesn't want to get he fellow solders killer.

These brave young Islmic fundamentisl cover their faces - now there are some real hero's -

And you now wonder why some military (>.001 percent - thats less than 1/1000's of a percent for you non-math types)put it on a little harder - oh yea they where humlitated - oh but what about the family of the guy beheaded - the LIBERAL F'ing media are saying its his fault he was told to leave Iraqi - Go figure our Liberal Folks ... let them walk the walk before they know what they are talking about...

by maxwell edison

.
After 9-11 it would have been "understandable" to have dropped a dozen nukes over various targets in the middle-east. Of course, that's an extreme analogy, but revenge and vengeance is not among the ideals on which America is based. We don't subscribe to revenge and vengeance, but rather fairly applied justice. We're engaged in a war of defense and justice, there's no question about it. But we're also engaged in a war of ideas. We have to change the minds of millions of Muslims around the world. We have to show them that we're not the daemons that they've been raised to believe we are. We don't want to fuel their fire of contempt, but rather plant the seeds of liberty and goodwill.

In my opinion, whoever ordered that these photos be taken, should be tried for extreme stupidity. In today's day and age, and considering that this war is being waged under the microscope of world-wide scrutiny, whoever took these photos is an idiot of the highest degree. "What's the worst thing that can happen?" is a question that should have been asked. And the answer would have dictated - no photos.

Okay, I'll admit that interrogating certain people in a certain way might lead to the gathering of some useful intelligence information. But when we start using the ends to justify the means, we're treading on some dangerous territory. And after all, you know as well as I do, that the "liberals" are always using their desired ends to justify their underhanded means. Conservatives don't do that.

Somebody screwed up, pure and simple. Somebody screwed up by resorting to tactics that are contrary to how we would like to be perceived; and somebody screwed up by documenting it. We should admit it; we should do whatever we can to fix it; and we then move on.

Acting and behaving on a core set of principles, not wavering from those principles, and just letting the chips fall where they may will always result in better ends - always.

By the way, I agree with you 100 percent that the belittling of some "war criminal" prisoners pales in comparison to the beheading of an innocent civilian. The former is an error in judgement. The latter is a down-right atrocity.

by thechas

Max,

While you and I both consider murder to be a much higher atrocity than humiliation, do the devout "radical" Muslims feel the same way?

From what I have heard and read, many of the Muslim sects consider dishonor to be worse than death.

One might compare some present day Muslims to Christians at the time of the Crusades.
While the goal is to vanquish the foe.
It is much better to die with honer than to return home with dishonor.

Any terrorist who has studied late 20th century US history knows that grisly deaths are the best way to stir US public opinion toward demanding troop withdrawal.

I think that this particular group has gone far past what could aid their cause.
Instead of moving public opinion toward withdrawal, this act looks to be galvanizing people to keep the war effort going until the job is done.

I myself wonder just what value there is in continuing to interrogate our Afghan and Iraqi prisoners?

Information gathered in the first 48 hours may have value and be "action-able".

After weeks and months, all we can hope to get is where weapons caches and bases used to be.

Chas

by jimhm

Have you seen or heard any (I mean Any) Islamic Cleric anywhere in the world - or even one person of Islam appologize for what happened to that man. "NO" - But they all whined and cried about what happened in the prison now didn't they. The President of the US appologized - Where is the great Islamic leader ship - They are all cowards - afraid of there own.

Now you got the F'ing liberal CNN media putting the beheading with the events in the prison like they are the same thing. "With all the violance going on over there, with the prison and beheading" - When do womens underware over the head equate to Beheading. What would of you said about the Japanees beheading thousands of US POW's for samari sword practice.

The way to piss off American is keep doing what they are doing - beheading and showing it. Another World Trade center - Get America standing without these Liberal Media crying about it - and hang on, it will be a fun ride.

by thechas

Yes Jim, I heard a number of stories about apologies today.
Iraqis in the street.
The Saudi government.
The Iraqi clerics who are working to form the new government.

While I have not had time to look up the details, I did hear that one of the members of the group who did the beheading has ties to Osama Bin'Laden.

As I stated, they went too far, or mis-judged the US people.

But, keep in mind these terrorists are radical fundamentalists. They DO consider the humiliations that the Iraqi prisoners were subjected to to be WORSE than death.

Chas

by jimhm

I haven't heard or read anything - CNN / FOX / CBS / ABC / NBC - no articles yet - will keep checking.

But most men would love to wear a panties over their face (ok so there are some strange people) - which is better than being beheaded.

I know - different cultures - different beliefs - different religon - different world - different upbringing -

by jimhm

I hear now that Berg's father is blaming Bush for his sons death? - There's more going on here than is being reported.

This aint over - They have gone to far again - and I don't think the US will stand for a 3rd time.

by onbliss

There are so many other ethnic people, around the world, who value honor more than life. Not just the moslems.

by thechas

Berg's father was opposed to Bush and the war in Iraq long before his son was killed.

Mr Bergs anti-war activities may be part of the explanation of why his son was arrested and questioned while in Iraq.

The reports I heard on apologies from Arabic people and rulers were on NPR.

Chas

This discussion is closed to new replies.