General discussion


Should the FBI seek indictments?

By maxwell edison ·
Should the FBI seek indictments?

Should the FBI seek the person - or the people - who created, perpetrated, and/or were willing accomplices in this fraud, seek arrests and incitements, and prosecute this person - or these people - to the full extent allowed by law?

(Or perhaps a better question, will they?)**404.html

Also, other than the obvious fraud and forgery, not to mention the various election laws that may have been broken (trying to illegally influence the outcome of an election), what other laws may have been violated?**0_162202_cbsd.htm

(By the way, Rather never "corrected" the record.)

For reference (if you're unfamiliar with the story):**4-114023-3708r.htm**2-125608-4609r.htm

And from another "unbiased" source:

And why isn't this huge - ABSOLUTELY HUGE - front page news? Where's the pubic outcry? Do Democrats really want to win this way? Have they really fallen this low?

One individual's opinion:


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A couple of opinions

by maxwell edison In reply to Should the FBI seek indic ...

From the right:**7.shtml**5.shtml


From the left:

"....or did the right-wing conspiracy set up CBS?"

"....speculation among Democrats that the efforts to discredit the CBS memos were engineered by Republicans eager to undermine....."

- From the "Democratic Underground" (some people's "favorite" source.)


Message to the left: "Denial" ain't a river in Egypt.

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Feeling bold and obnoxious

by TheChas In reply to Should the FBI seek indic ...


Before I start, I have to tell you that I am feeling a bit bold and obnoxious this morning.

As you are aware, I took an instant dislike to GWB when he first entered the national political scene.

NOTHING that he has done, or has happened over the past 5 years has improved my impression of GWB.
In fact, every speech from GWB or his administration only strengthens my negative opinion of him.

IMHO, ANYONE who does anything to discredit GWB or his administration deserves the Congressional Medal of Honer.

The sooner we get the Bush administration out of office, the better of the ENTIRE WORLD will be!!!!!

I truly believe that the US economy and the middle class American cannot survive another 4 years of GWB and his help the rich policies.


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Illegal and unethical - to what degree?

by maxwell edison In reply to Feeling bold and obnoxiou ...

How many times have you, in other areas of your life, suggested that the ends don't justify the means? If you have indeed suggested that before, why is this different? Or do some "ends" really justify some "means" - even illegal means?

That begs the next question - to what degree would you tolerate illegal and unethical "means", only to justify your desired "ends"? If fraud and forgery is "acceptable", where would it stop?

By the way, Chas, if you have the time or inclination, I'd love to see a reply to this:


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Legal and Ethical

by TheChas In reply to Illegal and unethical - t ...

You're right Max, I do not support using ends to justify the means.

While I want GWB out of office badly, using unethical tactics to do so is just stooping to the level of Karl Rove.

I'm worked up about a number of things today, and your discussion just provided an opportunity to vent.

As to the budget issues in the other thread;
I went back and looked for the information on the numbers and could not find the page on the White House web site that I had seen the budget information on.

I don't like to respond to your well researched posts unless I have similar research to present.


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One should be careful what one wishes for because one might just get it!!!

by sleepin'dawg In reply to Legal and Ethical

GWB many not be the sharpest knife in the drawer or the brightest bulb on the chandelier but even if he were at the bottom of a cess pool or the lowest pit in **** he would still be standing higher than Kerry. I do not know why in the last thirty years or so that the US media, as a whole, has swung so violently to the left and while in a feeding frenzy of sensationalism it seeks to destroy the lives of some of your finer and more qualified citizens. Both parties have better people to put forth but these people will not expose themselves or their families to this nonsense. Also as an outsider I still cannot understand how your politics have become so agressively polarized and downright nasty. It's a shame to see in such a great nation as the USA.

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Can't do worse

by TheChas In reply to One should be careful wha ...

I know that I will take some flak for this, but I believe that GWB will be judged by history to be one of, if not the worst President in US history.

Here comes the Zinger:

While I can't see myself voting for either one of them, IMHO, either Ted Kennedy or Hillary Clinton would be 10 times the President that GWB has been.

I don't know that I will vote for John Kerry. But, I know that I cannot vote for GWB.

As to the political polarization of US society, I think the biggest blame has to go to the primary election system.
As we switched from smoke filled rooms and political bosses to public primary elections, both parties moved from moderate candidates to extreme candidates.

In a closed primary or caucus, the candidate MUST attract the party faithful. As our political process continues to devolve, candidates are required to take stances farther and farther to the extreme in order to win the primaries. This leaves us with candidates that disgust the majority of voters. Leaving the decision at the general election more to which party can entice more of it's voters to show up at the poles than to the merits of the individual candidates.


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Differences of opinion is what makes horse races and you've listed a team!!

by sleepin'dawg In reply to Can't do worse

They're both Democrats and Hilary has already been in office(remember the bumper stickers that said "Recall Clinton and Her Husband Too) while Teddy will never be able to dry off after Chapaquidik . Both parties have better candidates. How about Lieberman vs McCain. I don't know enough about Lieberman but from what I've seen I'd be willing to learn more but I will not deny McCain would probably be my selection. **** I even liked Barry Goldwater even if he did scare the crap out of people with his bomb rattling. He would have been a better, more palatable choice than Tricky ****. I still like Dole but he's a little over the hill for the stress of the job.
In the past Canada has usually fared better under a Domocratic administration but since NAFTA Democrats have become much more protectionist than the Republicans. The major debate between Canada and the US is the softwood lumber issue and under Slick Willie stiff penalties were imposed which the WTO and the treaty review board has since said are illegal. These penalties were put in place to supposedly defend the jobs of about 3500 loggers. What has subsequently happened is that approximately 800 of those jobs disappeared anyway due to a lack of harvestable trees in the US, unemployment amongst Canadian loggers went up about 20% (1000-1200 loggers) and the price of the average American home has been increased by 23-25%. Talk about biting yourself in the butt. Protectionism is usually counter productive and based on the above figures about 20,000 first time home buyers have been forced to defer their purchase of a new home not to speak of the increased costs to the renovation market. You do have about 2500 loggers who are quite content to screw their fellow citizens and you can bet they probably vote Democrat to a man. What the home buyers are thinking; no one seems to give a damn.

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by highlander718 In reply to Can't do worse

Exactly the case. I used to be a liberal, (actually I think I still am) I think the Democratic party is going way too much to the left.
More than the Conservatives are going to the right, if you ask me.

Anyway, you have a good point about the political polarisation.

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No FBI but the FCC should review their broadcast license and issue fines!!!

by sleepin'dawg In reply to Should the FBI seek indic ...

The CBS, Dan Rather fiasco is just another example of the depths of sleaze and slander the news media is prepared to probe in its search for ratings and its efforts to control the American psyche. Since the Watergate scandal it seems the US media will halt at nothing in its efforts to destroy the reputations of anyone who has had the temerity to seek public office and serve their nation; while viewers sit idly by, as if watching the aftermath of a train wreck. It seems that a super market tabloid mentality has grasped the public and it can't wait to see what new scandal will be fabricated to titillate and sensationalize their tiny little minds. Unlike the rest of the English speaking world America's government apparatus is peculiarly vulnerable to these attacks and to the dismay of many, honest and capable men step back from the fray rather than expose themselves and their families to the media feeding frenzy for sensation over truth. Thus we are presented with the choice of mediocrities that is now prevalent. I do not know when it happened but the American Media took a violent swerve to the left and we are now presented with the Rather incident. Should the FBI get involved? No, because this unfortunately is the mud of electioneering politics. Frankly it should be the FCC examining the broadcast licenses of any news group with such obvious bias, contrary to truth and the public benefit. The news should be above such things and in Canada it is against the law to present such a biased view of the news. Perhaps this explains the growing popularity of PBS news broadcasts from the BBC and CBC which put forth largely unbiased news broadcasts. It seems America can no longer trust its news media, as if any thinking person ever did.

Dan Rather, if he had any honor at all, should immediately resign and never again be permitted in front of a camera and microphone in any role of a news person. Unfortunately the days of Cronkite, Huntley, Brinkley and Wallace are long past, when you felt their was some semblance of veracity to news reporting. I am not in favor of censorship but I do believe the media needs to be held to account as regards truth. The only good thing that can be said of this is that it has now become obvious that there is no depth to which Kerry won't stoop in his pursuit of office. Regardless of ones view of Bush's qualities as a leader, they do not encompass a sleaze factor of this magnitude. If there were any semblance of balance in the media Kerry would never have gotten as far as he has. Hopefully this puts an end to this slime-sucking pig. The more I see of this character the more nauseated I become.

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by maxwell edison In reply to No FBI but the FCC should ...

I agree with everything you said, and CBS President, Les Moonves, should fire Dan Rather. However, CBS and their biased reporting aside - make that extremely biased reporting that even suggests political activism, consider this.

Someone fabricated an official U.S. Air National Guard document; someone forged the signature of a deceased U.S. Air National Guard officer; and someone presented it with the intention of damaging a sitting U.S. President while, at the same time, attempting to influence the outcome of a national election. And consider that there was a "mastermind" behind this and, most likely, a long string of willing accomplices.

And the FBI won't get involved? They better get involved. Personally speaking, I want someone's head to roll for this.

And you know what? If any Republican activist, in the 1990s, created and presented forged documents, including forged signatures - especially ones to misrepresent "official" U.S. business - and presented them to further damage President Clinton in an attempt to influence that election, I'd be just as outraged, and I'd be the first in line to call for his head as well.

I want to win, absolutely. But I want to win in the arena of ideas without compromising my principles to do so. And to both the Republicans and Democrats who believe otherwise, they make me want to throw-up - and they're equally as disgusting.

But I'll tell you what, where the Republicans were, perhaps, once perceived as the kings of "dirty tricks" when Richard Nixon was president, the Democrats of today easily out-shine the Republicans in the "dirty tricks" department. They've become the very thing they've professed to abhor, and that makes them scum in my eyes - the whole lot of them - they're sickening.

Karl Rove, indeed. Comparing to Democrats' antics to Karl Rove is like comparing Charles Manson to a parking meter violator.

Where's the outrage - and where's the principle?

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