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Spam article by JimHM

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by rsiccs

Closed to new repliesThis discussion is closed. It stays readable, but it takes no new replies.

Although Jim has a POSSIBLE point concerning how e-mail address could be aquired by Spammers, it is obvious from his letter that this guy has the brains of someone who has eatten one to many mushrooms from the cow pasture. IF he is a computer tech or god forbid a network administrator I have complete compassion for his coworkers who must rack their brains in order to digest his inability to format a simple letter.
Jim.. try using spell/grammer checker prior to sending out a letter trying to show off your intelligence.

Spammers can aquire e-mail in a hundred different ways. Microsoft is not ALWAYS the villian. Issues such as this are a easy way for some idiot to flap his lips and solve nothing, except force a CEO like myself breakdown and send in this reply and thank my Human Resources department that he doesn't work for this corporation.

82 replies

by maxwell edison

...for the articles mentioned here, especially since this discussion was started by a person who targeted one of the more recent discussion regulars, namely JimHM.

I haven't conversed too much directly with Jim, but I find that I usually agree with his take on many things, although I usually try to refrain from the type of bluntness he displays. (But I do, at times, find similar outbursts flowing from my own fingertips, so I have no room to judge another, which I'm not doing.) Nonetheless, I do understand the emotion that can be stirred up when people try to knock you off the soapbox you climbed upon, and JimHM is just like the rest of us - we do get on a soapbox once in a while, and we do try to knock others off theirs.

But what were the sequence of events that led up to this particular thread? I think I found the article and discussion in question, and the links are provided below. (Since articles are often recycled by TechRepublic, the dates may be a little misleading.)

Original article:

http://tinyurl.com/kqhx

JimHM's reply to the article:

http://tinyurl.com/kqi2

And, of course, the above comments by newcomer, rsiccs@hotmail.com, the message that started this thread.

(Please correct me if I am mistaken about the article/discussion for which I posted links.)

I must say, this has the makings of a very interesting discussion. I'll be sure to add some additional comments later.

by cactus pete

Hell, yeah, Jim, I can hardly believe we agree on something - That SChandler is at least missing the point here.

He wants to fine the user? Why the hell did the IT department allow an infected message get to the desktop of the user in the first place?

Can someone find SChandler and get this person to respond? I see no S.Chandler alias in the perr directory, and I saw nothing from this person in the [alleged] discussion - just the article.

I don't even see this user in the discussion that the article itself was referencing...

by lordinfidel

And I fully agree with jimh....

It is ludricrous to make the end user pay a fine.

What's next, fines for the people who get paid to protect the systems?

In reality, the end user should *Never* see a actual virus via e-mail. At least that is the principal I go on.

Even with the latest rounds of blaster and pif wars. Not a single end user on any of my networks ever saw the virus. Alerts yes, but the actual virus, no. And that was even before the virus definitions were updated.

If a virus -did- get thru via e-mail, I am going to blame myself, not the end user. End users are by nature unable to control their urge to open attachments.

It is up to us, to stop the virus from ever reachine the end user.

And the easiest way to do that is via extension blocking at the mail gateway. By blocking pifs, vbs, scr, exe, whs, com etc . You will save yourself and your networks alot of heartache and worrying about the next wave of viri.

Just my 3 cents.

But as I digressed, jimh is right, this guy is wrong. And if I hear 1 more person blast another for typo's, I am going to rip them a new one...... get a life folks!

by mlayton

Which is that perhaps fining the user if they are checking their personal mail accounts on company time (which therefore can infect your network without going through the mail server), and executing "fun" attachments from those accounts instead of actually working may encourage people to abide by the IT Policy (assuming one exists). Perhaps this is what the article intended, although the writer did not express it at all clearly.

by vida

I take full accountability for any security issues. A system or computer, in regards to the end user, is just another piece of equipment, another tool that is required for them to carry out their job for about 8 hours a day. How it got their and where it goes when it dies is most often of little/no concern to them. Just make it work, fast, big and (Fun if you don?t mind). My users are a little fearful of ?wrath?, very informed (my monthly tips/tricks/and DON?T DOs letter), and curious ? but always protected and monitored ? by Me.
I even feel a little responsible if close friends and family aren't updated/protected. Security is a fundamental component in Sys/Net Admin - it's what we get paid to do - keep up to date and informed on industry change and growth, with one end result ? optimally functioning systems. Taking Proactive/Protective steps at the forefront ? and ahead of time ? i.e. implementing firewalls, blocking ports (knowing port assignments http://www.iana.org/assignments/port-numbers), knowing which extensions to block for e-mail/attachments (thanks for the link LInfidel), incorporated with regimented maintenance and surveillance of the systems? performance are the baseboards and cornerstones for defense in this volatile/malicious environment. Being informed and reading and learning are imperative. The only problem that anyone really has with Jim is that if you step in not having a clue as to the BS you?re spewing about or hoping for the ?quick and easy version? without ever having glanced at a white page or done a search on the web for tech tips and/or notes ? then you?re going to get smacked ? and quite honestly ? I think it?s good for the forum.

by mrbill-

Ludicrous + ridicules = ludricrous. Makes sense to me, it is a new word and not a typo

by jimhm

Cool I wrote an Article for TechRepublic - and I didn't know it ... Cool - Let me go read it and get back to this discussion..

by lordinfidel

POP e-mail, tcp 110, should NEVER EVER be allowed outbound.

As long as your firewall is set up correctly, then you do not have to worry about them checking personal e-mail via their e-mail client.

<--But LI, what about web-mail--> Well you can't block everything, and that is why you have anti-virus software on the desktop. Unless you are going to be a nazi and block all web access.

Now if your e-mail is hosted by an outside company, then simply put a rule in your firewall that says in/out 110 to the IP of the remote mailserver.

The crux is, fining passes the repsoniblity on to people who can not make intelligent decisions about their e-mail to begin with. Simply take away their ability to harm themselves, others and your network.

by lordinfidel

(-8=

I thought it looked funny (ludricous, i do that sometimes, misplace a letter)

I am really bad at inconvenience (msp)..... I actually have inconvenience (correct) taped to my laptop screen so I can type it correctly. Since spell check never can figure out the word for me.

by maxwell edison

....this was supposed to be a joke, you know, kind of like a double negative making a positive, not intended to point out any error. (Which I make enough of msyelf.) Because the word you said was misspelled was actualy spelled correctly, and you said.......oh, never mind.

by jardinier

my most common typing error is to transpose two adjacent letters. I was reassured by someone who specialises in how different peoples' brains work, that this was caused by my brain (thoughts) racing ahead of my fingers.

by jimhm

It is also scientifically termed Dislexia (very mild form of it) - There are a number of levels of it - from transposing one or two letters - to entire words and numbers, some people it only happens with letters - others it happens with numbers..

Thank God for spell checkers - as everyone likes to point out on my posts... we need a Java spell checker for the Forum body ...

by lumberjack

i agree - My brain works so fast that I can have absolutely brilliant ideas on many things, but then forget before I can do anything about them
some recent examples were
world peace; clean renewable energy; and how to handle pop idol winners. I am sure there were more - but I forget!

by lordinfidel

you asked a question regarding upgrading your kernel. Check the thread again.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

by vida

There is kernel and kernel-source, does it matter which update I do first? I am going to install the quota 3.06-9.7 first, per up2date advisory, then do my kernel updates.

At the rpm site, there is also a kernel-BOOT.rpm, is that a patch for what you told me to do? I'd rather do it the way you suggested - just curious.
Thank you - you're SUPER!

by lordinfidel

Stay away from anything that says source!!!!

You want the .rpm only..... If you do the search on rpmfind.net.

When you click on the package, you will see a link at the top of the page. And you will see a src link. You want the link at the top of the page to the rpm.

The difference is this. Source is exactly the way it sounds. It is the raw source code of the kernel. It allows you to go in thru the "make" interface and add/remove kernel modules. While this is ok for someone who really knows what they are doing. For the person who is not quite sure, can really mess things up.

The safest way is just to install the rpm using the command I gave you. rpm -ivh

Or just use up2date kernel (i forget the syntax, but if you do up2date --help it will show you.

While I am never a big fan of automtic dowloads. The up2date system will let you choose what packages you want to check for updates. And when you manually run it (which is the reccomended way, never let anything except AV software automatically update). It will install in the correct procedure and check for dependencies.

I have yet to have a RH machine crash because of up2date. I trust it more then I trus windows update, which I NEVER even think of running. Not only do I not run it, but i turn it off and manually remove the 2 services it installs. Not just disable them.

Again.... stay away from the souce (tar .gz same thing) You want just the rpm ie kernel-2.4.20-8.i686.rpm

ftp://speakeasy.rpmfind.net/linux/redhat/9/en/os/i386/RedHat/RPMS/

by jimhm

Sir or Madame - Are you speaking of the Article "TechRepublic members offer battle plan for spam
May 31, 2002". Correction I did not write that article - I was the first poster in it.

Are you speaking of the facts - that Mr. S. Chandler wished to fine his employees for opening emails.

If this isn't the article - please post a link to the post of which you find troubling and I will gladly defend my position - without commenting on your grammar or on your spelling.

Looking forward to the battle ...

by timwalsh

Don't know if everyone has missed this or whether it was considered to be too obvious:

S.Chandler's recommendations have absolutely nothing to do with fighting spam. To have submitted such suggestions, S.Chandler must be so technically-challenged (or totally unaware of the real issues) as to think one or more of the following:
1. All spam contains viruses.
2. Viruses are only spread through spam.
3. Viruses only arrive as an attachment from an unknown sender.

As for rsiccs, he is obviously so new to this forum as to not realize there is no spell/ grammar checker available directly form the forum. Nor has he read enough hot threads to realize that once one of our hot buttons has been pushed, all (or most) of us tend to blast out a scathing reply without wasting time on such things as proof-reading. In fact he should take his own advice -- "to many mushrooms" vs. "too many mushrooms"????

Glad he's not my boss!!

by cactus pete

I had seen the disconnect about virus/spam in there, too, but since I wasn't about to read the whole thing, I let that one go.

There are too many tiny errors for me to recognize all of them. I'm still stuck on the identity of S.Chandler or syspop...

by vida

rsiccs made only 2 statements that weren't jimHM bashing - "Spammers can aquire e-mail in a hundred different ways." "Microsoft is not ALWAYS the villian."

I think rsiccs IS S. Chandler who IS a Microsoft hugging scout placed in the position of Deflecting Microsoft's inadequacies, (MS's method of defense when times are hot). I'm not a microsoft hater, it's the easy GUI way i got into the industry to begin with - but when i see someone Defending MS - the big looming self-evolved societal wallpaper of daily life as we know it
I tend to wonder...
but back to the point at hand - JIM NEVER WROTE THE FREAKIN' ARTICLE!

by jimhm

One of our sub's - plays by their own standards and not corporate standards which ended today by order of the CEO/CIO & CTO. Our sub uses Outlook - corporate standard is Notes, corporate standard to renew and install anti-virus on all equipment (mcaffee), they stop renewals 2 years ago to save capital. All Internet access through corporate DMZ and firewalls - they setup a back door with their own Firewall (nothing configured - except what came out of the box).

Well, this week in walked the GOBIG, MSBlast and another virus through their firewall and anti-virus. Attakced Outlook address book, and zippo all hell has broken loose - Corporate was saved by intelligent software, trained personal, correctly configured firewalls, and Lotus (the address book is secure from those nasty email viruses that attack Outlook).. It just goes to show who is responsible ... I think.

It is the corporations responsibility to protect its resources - The VP of our sub (maybe on the streets), wanted to make his bottomline look better and did things cheap.

Now, you were the person that accidently opened that virus package - would you want to pay for this infection because your VP wanted the bottomline to look good so he got a bigger bonus!

As other posters have said - With End-User training - Solid Anti-Virus software (up-to-date definitions) - Firewalls which are configured by trained and experence staff - will protect 99.8% of all attacks...

This is no BS story - our Desktop and Network people are working until the infection is clean. Over 300 desktops, 34 servers to dis-infect and install the latest Anti-Virus. (McAffee love our subs purchase)...

PS - Thanks all for the support ... on the post - sometimes I do go off of stupidity - and get my dander up when - they pick on spelling and grammar...

by hal 9000

That the end user be fined for opening this attachment. After all how else can the VP keep the bottom line looking great?
We are rapidly approching the position of where every enduser has to have a degre in computer sciences just to keep their jobs so even the humble Data Entry personal should be held responsible for their VP's negelience cost cutting shouldn't they.

Sorry for the sarcasum but these stories just get under my skin where some one who knows no better is balmed for the incompendence of some accounting type who's only goal in life is to save a few cents and then blame others for their short sightness.

by jimhm

Col Luck - you got me thinking with a load of sarcasum..

1) Space Shuttle blowing up - blame the crew should of know about the solid fuel blow-by and refused to fly. Their families owe the government 1.5 bilion for a new craft.

2) Second shuttle vaporised on reentry: Blame crew they should of know that would happen after being hit with the foam. Their families owe 2.5 billion for a new Craft.

Remember it wasn't the fault of NASA Management and cutting budgets - "Wasn't ME" -

3) Girl attacked on street: blame the women for wearing that dress and fine her for the cost of the police to come to her aid.

Yea - they are about the same ... someone that has no power to control what has been given to them - but is blamed for the results..

by hal 9000

It's always proper to blame the victim and it is particuarly good if they managed to kill themselves in the event because that can't answer can they?

I particuarly liked both the ideas about NASA charging the people concerned with the Space Shuttle but I don't think that you whent far
enough on the first one wasn't there a teacher?

That problem was obviously her fault as all the rest where highly trained by NASA so they couldn't be responsible. Right?

And on ther second one wasn't there a foreign national? Again blame him as it must have been his fault. Right?

But we could go further and not only hold them responsible for the loss of the craft in question but the shutting down of the program for the period that it was/has been shut down so the cost is actually higher.

And they say sarcasum is the lowest form of wit.

But on a more serious note over here we had a runaway girl some 3-4 years ago and she only turned up when some guy was on trial for her murder and a few others the Police raided a house and found her hiding in a cupboard so that murder charged was rapidly droped {for some strange reason that I can't quite fully understand it is a bit hard to get a murder conviction against someone when the susposed victim is alive and well.} Now the Police want to charge her for all their investigations in the murder charge. Seems that she must have rung up the Police and told them that she had been murdered so they launched a full scale investigation which they want their cost paid for by this girl. It would be laughable if it wasn't so serious.

by maxwell edison

He misread the article, thinking Jim wrote it when, in fact, it was written by someone else.

And/Or

He wasn't able to read Jim's obvious sarcasm.

And/Or

He read way too fast missing the point entirely.

And/Or

All of the above.

But he did mention the words breakdown and CEO in his message. Maybe that's a clue.

by jimhm

Interesting point - you make there - he is a CEO and uses a HOTMAIL? account and has bad grammar and misspelling - my I just wonder how big his corporation is - 2 or 3 people ... Hum

Oops - should of flow that Sarcasum Flag before this ..

Well I am just waiting for the wonder boy or girl to post back - maybe he is S. Chandler - that sounds like a CEO name ...

by vida

src/source - it makes sense. THAT was what got me so freaked out about kernel updates - someone must have just rattled something off and I didn't have the time to get clarification.
Thank you so much for clearing that up for me! You don't install windows updates? Or you do it manually? You know - I have some old "boxes" at home - I'm going to install redhat on and practice platform upgrades etc. I can't wait to NOT be so stifling-ly GUI-dependant!

by generalist

Perhaps this thread should have been titled "Spam article with JimHM as a reference" as opposed to what it was titled. That would be a heck of a lot more accurate.

Anyway, while Chandler's idea of fining those people who open spam containing viruses would be tempting, it wouldn't work in a lot of environments. Various HR and union regulations would limit it and you would have to make sure that it applies to everybody equally.

At best you might be able to have notes put into an employee's personnel record. But you had better provide the employee with training on what to look for when dealing with spam and attachments.

You had also better set policies for what to do when an employee clicks on attachments that look like they are from legitimate sources. Those can do the same damage as spam based attachments.

by maxwell edison

I've seen a lot of spam, and I've seen a lot of viruses. But I usually see one or the other, not both together. Spam is trying to sell you something, and they certainly wouldn't attach a virus to it. And a virus is usually a stealthy attachment, presumably from someone you know.

I'm sure it's happened, but personally, I've never seen a virus infested spam email.

by drew17

I had about 15 messages in my excite.com web mail account the other morning, they all looked like spam to me at first glance.

An ever growing percentage of spam seem to be using 'tricky' subject lines to lure you in to clicking and opening their messages thinking that it may actually be something from someone you know.

For instance, I've seen subject lines lately that say something like "The server is down!" or "re: Our Conversation yesterday".

These sobig.f infected messages contained similar subject lines to some spam messages I've recieved. I didn't recognize any of the "sender" addresses on the sobig.f messages so I initally assumed they were just more spam messages.

Either way, it shouldn't be too hard to spot a spam/virus message even if you're not an IT Manager.

And answer me this: Have you ever in your life purchased anything that was sent to you in a spam e-mail message?

Someone must believe that people will respond because they spend a lot of money, time and effort sending out billions of bullshit messages every day.

by lordinfidel

I'm on the MS security notification list.

<-side track->
(one thing about lists, you can never belong to too many, i subscribe to the 3 major virus vendors , plus cert, of course there are the security focus lists , then there is vuln-watch. I'm sure I am forgetting some.

The point of the digression was, when I get a new notification from M$ about a hotfix. I typically will read it, thoroughly, and make a classification of how critical it really is. If it is a critical patch, let's say for a web server or sql server. I will first load up my image of the server that is identical to what I have in production, and install the hot fix.

I then verify it has been installed and look to see if it breaks anything.

Then, depending on how severe the hole is, I will monitor the various lists and see if anyone has had some bizarre side effects.

I always install them manually. I know it would seem like a chore when I first build a machine. But I have a local repository that I burn off onto cd. And it is scripted via a bat file and qchains so all I have to do is run the bat file and it will install all of the hotfixes.

Another side note- Service Packs, never install them the second they are released. Always wait at least 2 months. Odd advice I know. but make sure that it is stable first. I actually waited longer with sp3.

by lordinfidel

I for one really enjoy the posts from people complaining about mispelled words.

I think that everytime one of us mispells a word that it should go up on the mispelled wall of shame. So all can see how bad of typists and spellers we all really are.

by maxwell edison

...that only about one-tenth of one percent of all spam messages are ever read, much less acted upon. (That may not be a real accurate percentage, but it is an extremely low number. Maybe someone knows for sure the real numbers.)

However, if it wasn't profitable, spammers wouldn't do it. I would imagine that a spammer could send about a million spam emails at the same cost of a handfull of junk snail mail.

Personally, I've never bought anything advertized in spam. I don't want to be rich, I'm happy with my current home mortgage, I don't want any of those little remote controlled cars, I don't want a deck of Iraq's most 52 wanted cards, I like being fat, I don't need to find a date, and my.......well, nevermind.

by cactus pete

Given : one tenth of one percent of spam is read.

Ok, my firm got about 500 spam message per hour yesterday. [According to the filter. This does not include A) non-filtered mail, messages that the filter missed, "bulk mail" which is basically solicited spam and B) messages incorrectly identified as spam, but were legitimate. In the end, the number is likely higher.]

600*24*.01=144

That means my firm read 144 of those message. Let's round down to 100, since the wording was "less than one tenth of one percent".

General soliciting expects about a 1.5% response rate. That's 1.5 messages acted on, let's round down to 1.

This means that SOME IDIOT IN MY FIRM BOUGHT JUNK FROM SPAM YESTERDAY!!!!

...and is solely responsible for all of the UCE we got. "It takes just one rotten apple..."

by hal 9000

I'm sure that my name would be at the top of the list rightly so as I totally rely on spell checkers now days.

A few months ago I was subjest to "Crule and Inhumane Punishment" I had to use a typewritter for some reason.

All I can say is Thank God for Word Processors, but then again maybe I've been using these things for too long.

by oz_media

Actally Jim, although in many ways you have a point, in others you have misunderstood the post.

The article stated:
?You can make users, who disobey company policy regarding the opening of e-mail from unknown sources, pay for part of the damage,?

You then said: "Lets see I get an Email from Joe Smo and I know Joe from doing business with him ..."

>>This section of the article was aimed at "opening email from UNKNOWN sources"

The article also said:
"Even with the Outlook preview screen turned off, if you delete one message, Outlook, by default, will automatically open the next message,?

>>Does this not also say that the problems are mainly related to how OUTLOOK handles mail? Why even use OUTLOOK in a business environment?

"Yea - Now this is an intelligent manager I would want working for my company ... (Only when hell freezes over)."

Unfortunately, I think you probably got your certificationand job based on your ability to read, learn and comprehend technical manuals and instructions. If this is how you comprehend a written article (not just someone's oral interpretation)I fear for your company.

It seems to be quite common for you to read someone's post, or at least a small portion of it and draw your own conclusions without a full understanding of the intent. Let me guess, you're an army boy too.

by oz_media

SPAM is a numbers game, like telemarketing or bulk mail except MUCH more efficient and cost effective. I expect SPAM, there are so many people without a clue as to how to make money, they figure this will provide a solid income.
Amway made a few people rich, now look at all the losers who jumped on the bandwagon, oooops, just a little too late in an inundated market. I know of two people who have made millions selling Anmway (yes they really do exist). They also created thier own methods of building thier business and not those taught to the masses of wannabe richies. One person makes a few bucks sending bulk email and now we have a bad rash of losers who figure they'll be telling thier boss to F-O in a week of spamming this GREAT NEW IDEA!

Unfortunately, as one person realizes he/she has wasted time with this crap, another sparkly eyed and disillusioned idiot jumps on the bandwagon.

Segue:

Do the unemployment figures take into account that self employed people may be spammers and not really employed but on some crusade to make millions that don't exist? Perhapse the true rate is much higher than reported and we should focus on creating REAL jobs for people instead.

OM

by cactus pete

It IS underestimated. By definition, the unemployment rate is only counting those who don't have a job [that they admit to] and are ACTIVELY seeking one.

All of those who have given up, for whatever reason, are no longer counted.

by cactus pete

Is that it is some people's jobs to open emails from people they don't know.

A twist on that is that if I get a new email address [Let's pretend I went from AOL to MSN] and send an email out stating the address change, then by following the rule of not opening unknown sources, no one would ever know I did it.

So the rule of never opening mail from unknown sources [and if there happens to be a mistake and you get nailed with a virus...], in just these two quick examples I culled from the top of my head, would be out of line with practical needs.

Oh, hear's another one: You know several administrative people at, say, the University of New Mexico... Well, the Blaster would have sent you lots of email from people there you didn't necessarily KNOW, but thiese wouldn't necessarily be from unknown sources, either.

But let's get back on track with the fact that this isn't about virus emails, it's about spam...

I can't imagine why someone hasn't written a virus like this, but instead of doing damage to the PC, it's payload is one of the get rich quick schemes, or the bank accounts scams...

by oz_media

But i still feel that if you aren't EXPECTING email from a trusted source, delet or sheck with the source before opening it.

I've had a few sketchy looking emails come in from "trusted sources" I emailed THEM to see if they had sent mail and asked for a specific subject line in thier response.

The point I was making was that Jim had assumed the article was implying that one should fine a user for opening mail from a trusted source. It wasn't, the article CLEARLY erad to fine for opening UNKNOWN email.

If I sent you mail from Ozmedia@excite.com and two weeks later you got mail from Ozmedia@NWOBHM.com would you not at least out two and two togethr? or Perhapse send an email to my old address to see if it was active?

There are many other ways to communicate without email, phone, fax, SMail etc.

Nowe if your email is REALLY important and I must address it right away and you've JUST changed your addy, would it not be logical to call me and say, I just sent you the contract I need signed, did you receive it, I have a new address. Or perhapse just like in th eolden days, you could send out notification of change to users in your addy book BEFORE changing your domain or email name?

by hal 9000

As these bulk mailing Viurs/Worms and spyware and the like can send back details about what is actually stored on a HDD are you sure that some bright spark hasn't already hacked into Bank Accounts and removed money?

I know bloody well you would never hear of this from the banks as they are unwilling to let anyone know just how lax their security actually is

{By the way how is that Case going in Britian where a PhD student has started his thesis on breaking Bank Security in under 14 Attempts? Did the Banks get the injunction preventing him from giving evidence in a criminal trial? And can he actually finish his PhD thesis?}

AS this might just put off some {if not all} their customers from doing business with them.

I know it's off the disussion but it is interesting anyway and you did ask the question.

by jimhm

Oh where oh where is our rsiccs boy/girl oh where oh where could the coward be - post a flame and run away - oh where oh where could it be.

Yo - dude or Dudett - where ar'th tho - you had toss down the challegen and ran from the field of battle ...

I say - Boy you hear me talking to you - I say Boy can you hear me ... (if your a female - my appologies) ..

Come on - I am ready - I am willing - I am Able - I even will write responses in Word then cut and paste over - so you don't have to spell check my work..

Come - On - Dang-nab-it ... where is ya boy ...

by oz_media

Ah, say, ah, say, listen up boy.. you might learn somthin'

Damn I miss those old Foghorn Leghorn cartoons, as Bugs would say, "What a maroon!".
Have a bunch of ancient Tom and Jerry's on disc now though.

Maybe he's our friend Riverfrieght.
Some people just can't fight for themselves, even worse, some people are even intimidated by words. People THAT intimidated by words, should hide in a box until we give up the English language for French, could be a long wait, better pack a lunch.

by jimhm

Your alright bro - no matter how much we disagree, argue, yell, scream and flame each other ... not many would of picked up the foghorn leghorn - sarc ...

by cactus pete

That's all good practice, but we're talking about the lowest common denominator - the user.

[And I wasn't commenting on Jim's alleged assumptions, just getting the other data out of my head]

by oz_media

A user had a responsibility to his/her organization to take all necessary measures to ensure that office equipment and procedures are followed to the best of their ability.

If a user can't learn how to use email, don't let the use it. If you start a fire every time you pick up matches, don't pick them up. If you HAVE to use email, then it should be the company's responsibility to properly train the user and then the users responsibility to apply this knowledge accordingly. Most of this is just common sense, why has common sense gone out the window these days? Do people get fed information from a computer so much these days that they've forgotten how to think for themselves?

by hal 9000

That Connon Sence has gone out the window but that most people aren't properly trained in the security aspects of computer ussage. This costs money and provided that they can do their jobs without any training so much the better.

I can remember when Word Perfect was the Universal Word Processor at least twice a year all the staff who entered data in WP attended training courses just how often does thsi happen nowdays?

Then there is also the fact that more staff are using computers than ever before and most of these arn't qualified to even know how to turn them on let alone have e-mail access but it is now a requirment so they just get their own e-mail account for the business that they work in and without any trainig are expected to know what to do.

Sorry but it just doesn't work out all that well and even last week while I was visiting one company that I do work for {giving them a bill actually} I was asked about an e-mail that had been recieved from a "known source." They where suspicious because the person in question was in hospital but it turned out to be an infected e-mail with Blaster attached again no AV software on that computer so ther would have been a problem if it had of been opened.

And before you blame me for that one I walked in on this job after all the equipment had been bought and setup by so called professionals and I spent weeks of my time fixing things up because rather than having a network to transfer data around the business they had been told just to e-mail it to each other. Great for their ISP but not so good for the business. Now as they had already exhausted their budget for IT that year I had limited funds to work with and did the best that I could with no new software let alone new hardware which is sorely needed. There where 25 computers in that business that only had an OS installed with no software whatsoever. But the best one was a Compag desktop system with no software and a second TFT monitor so that the customer could look at pictures of equipment that the sdalesman had brought up on their monitor, only problem no connection for the second monitor and when a PCI video card was fitted the computer wouldn't work because it exceded the power supplys capacity.

But it was supplied by so called professionals so it must have been right. I blew their budget just on required business software so there was nothing left over for security and no matter how much I've tried to warn them about just how vunerable they are they just don't have the money right at the moment. I'm betting that they will find some once they have suffered an attack but by then it's too late from my point of view.

by cactus pete

Sorry, I've been away most of the month at various times...

I can see the idea of training the users, and to an extent yes, I agree.

But I don't recall any employer training anyone on the finer points [all puns intended] of using pens and paper and stamps on envelopes.

Too much emphasis is placed on dealing with the lowest common denominator, instead of just hiring people with common sense.

by oz_media

I'm just an idiot at heart.

I grew up on Monty Pythons, Fawlty Towers, then all the cool North American cartoons. if flicking channels, I will still stop and watch a good(OLD) WB cartoon or the war-time Merry Melodies. If you can't laugh, what can you do?
getting old is boring, kids have way more fun.
I have the Peter Pan syndrome, I'll NEVER GROW UP!! just ask anyone here ;-)

by hal 9000

But fails miserably in real life as these e-mails would be coming from a user who isn't all that savy about what the IT section is doing and provided that they can get and send their e-mails they don't really care what ISp they are using this week or last week. And then in business there are normally hundreds of people/companies listed in your address books so just sending out an e-mail even a form one with CC's just isn't going to happen.

The best that you could hope for is a bulk mail out from the system admin informing all listed people/business in the company address book of the change and this should be rejected by the firewall before it even reaches the users. After all isn't this what the thing is there for in the first place?

by oz_media

But I expect this kind of heads up attitude from anyone who I support. So far, I have two companies who call me once or twice a week because they question an email's validity. I usually get them to send it to me, I'll open it after my box is offline (I can always clean my box and only remote network so the main networks are not jeopardized).

If the mail is OK, I'll send it back to the recipient, but the users are ALL able to use discretion that works most of the time.

NOTE: these are far from power users, some don't even know they HAVE email installed.

by hal 9000

But you know that you're getting old when some young girl comes up to you and asks you that did you know that Paul McCarthy was in a band before he was in Wings?

It only took me about 30 minutes to realise that she was refering to the Beatles and the fact that I had never thought of things in that order just might have had some bearing on my seemingly stupid responce.

by hal 9000

But they where never that big outside of Germany so they didn't really count because it was only after they returned to England and with the new lineup made it big and everyone heard of them.

The Quarrymen where a great Pub Band and I honestly think that those four would have been far better off it they had never gone past that stage, they would at least been happier and could walk down a street withot being reconised or shot.

by oz_media

I'm at the ferry terminal, there are a TONNE of really cute (and quite young 20-28) year old girls from UVIC.

I'm thinking, "she's not THAT much younger than me". I smile and mouth Hi, with a little wave as she looks at me. She gets up and walks over to me, I shuffle down the bench a little to make more room for my new visitor.

She says, excuse me "SIR", do you have the time?
I look at the hands on my watch, she probably doesn't even know how to tell time from the hands.

After giving her the time, she once again says.Thank you "SIR" and walks over to sit with her green haired skater boyfriend.

At this time, I check my Depends are still keeping me dry and line up for the seniors specials in the Cafe.

I mean REALLY!!! SIR ??? That was my dad's name, not mine, have some respect!

I don't let ANY of my customers or prospects call me sir. I know the army guys will not understand this as they've been taught SIR is a title of respect. In my eyes, SIR is best used for those who you do not see as an equal or those that are OLD !!!

by mrbill-

Maybe she was trying to make your day. You know, flirt with the old geezer kind of thing. `;]

Unfortunately there are only two choices, get old or DIE! We can act as young as we want, I do, but we are still getting older. How?s that old saying go? Something like: There are two absolutes - death and taxes.

I will use Sir when talking to others I don?t know, even if they are younger. It comes from military and my mom.

by jardinier

[Sorry for the position, but the relevant thread reached its limit]

So are you trying to say that you are a bad speller? And all this time I thought you were trying to communicate in an alien language which was programmed into you when you were taken for a trip on a UFO.

by maxwell edison

Better off as far as escaping the excruciating limelight, perhaps, as none of them really cared for it. However, as far as growing as singers, songwriters and composers, and making their mark in musical history, they couldn't have had one without the other. Many of their musical scores will live on as great works of art for many generations to come. That would not have been possible if they remained a small and local pub band.

Yesterday
Imagine
Here There and Everywhere (Celine Dion has a great rendition)
In My Life
Here Comes The Sun
Let It Be

and on and on and on...

and, of course, we can't forget Maxwell's Silver Hammer

by maxwell edison

.... were not part of the Quarrymen - only Paul and John. George came later (with the original Beatles) and Ringo shortly after that - replacing Pete Best on the drums.

by oz_media

I often say thank you sir, also regardless of age. It is just polite, I guess. But if I was in a ferry terminal or bus depot, whatever, I'd see someone close to my age and say "hey man, do you have the time?" I may then say, "thank, you sir".

The whole "Excuse me sir..." just pisses me off. I'm 34 not 64. Especially because they always accent the SIR. I prefer the Yo Dudes, hey man's, 'allo mate's and the "eet eez, how you say, nice to meet you's" I get in Europe.

Like I said, SIR is my dad's name. I'm just a dude.

by oz_media

Well I think I'll get bored of this long before we run out of phrases.

Whle golfing yesterday we were talking about who said "heaven's to mergatroid" (snagglepuss or huckleberry hound, or Jabberjaw).
I picked Snaggltooth.

We were then trying to decide which was better.
Laff Olympics or Wacky races.
Laff olympics was cool because it put characters in situations they wouldn't normally be in.
I picked Wacky Races as my favorite though becaus ei loved the cool enineering to get those freaky cars to do their tricks.

Good d-, g-d, good de, ahhhh that's all folks.

by oz_media

sorry I couldn'tresist winding out the discussion with that one.

oh, oh , oh

captain, CAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVE MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!

by hal 9000

In actual fact they are not saying "Please Sir" but actually "Please Cur" a slight difference in spelling but radicly different meanigs.

by oz_media

But I think expecting someone to know how to use pens, paper and stamps, that have been a way of life for MANY years is not the same as expecting someone to understand new technology.

I guarantee that the next generation of children would not need such training, they have been born into a computer era, whereas many of us weren't.

As for the next generation of children, I think they will need help with writing or reading written literature because those skills are assumed by us (we grew up with pen and paper not email)but not younger generations.

I can't wait to read my first novel that starts with 'OUAT'.. instead of "Once upon a time"
or newspaper articles that are started with 'IMHO'
...LOL! ;-)

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