Supporting our replacements?

I am based in the Vancouver, BC, Canada region. In the past few years I have seen many unqualified individuals and companies moving into the service/support area as hardware has become increasingly less profitable.

This is hurting me in the short term but ultimately people do learn where good value is. I will continue to help people by answering single issue questions. When I get calls that are obviously multiple issue or layered then they are told to get the neccesary technical material or pay for services. To answer would be doing a disservice to all.

Tech forums work best for those seeking answers to specific questions. They are not a replacement for a solid base of experience and knowledge. "Newbies" have to start building their own foundation somewhere, forums are one such resource. We can and should help.

Those people using the forums to cheat and give the appearance of skill will fail because they do not have the ability to put a specific answer in context with an understanding of interactions and consequences.

My best source of new customers are those that have been hosed by incompetent people pretending to be technicians where their only interest is making money and not gaining reliable technical skills. This includes people working for companies with the same attitude. This problem is exacerbated by the prevalent "I want it now and I want it cheap" attitude existing today in far too many countries, not just the self appointed "developed nations".

I see many countries where greed is not paramount and the citizens have happy productive lives. It almost seems as if technology feeds the greed which feeds the technology..... A self feeding cycle. With many disastrous side effects. Look at many of todays jobs and the requirements, not much difference from them and sweat house jobs of the early industrial era. The more things change the more they stay the same. If we don't learn from our mistakes we are doomed to repeat them. Only technology allows us to repeat them in faster and ever shorter cycles.

I agree with you!. It does matter with support. Experience and education go hand in hand. More IT people are needed, It's time for IT professionals to accept that this is part of business. This problem is one of expectations. Here's a three stage review of the problems. I have been on the front lines in tech support in the retail industry.

First: There must be standards, MCSE,Novell CNE, or open source. There must be a standard of excellence to adhere to and a code of professional conduct that everybody must adhere to.
Second : Customers this applies to you to. We professionals are just as human as you are . Just becasue we're certified and experienced, doesn't mean we can't make mistakes. Also don't expect us to remember you personally, do you know how many people we work with?

Thirdly: Once again expectations of management at all levels; Respect is a two way street! don't give us conflicting assignments and don't set us up to fail. This means both salary and professional respect. This also means respecting our certifications and the time it takes to get them.

Funny we are all human desiring the best pay and paying the least amount for goods and services. I think I understand now what a college professor once termed "the nature of the beast". Despite the comment it seems our corporate structure has grown way out of hand...in some cases down right illegal.
A lot of folks are concerned about the evolution of outsourcing in IT. How about the impact the Wally Worlds in this country have on local economies? Wally comes in and offers the "lowest price". Everyone jumps on the wagon for the sake of "saving money". The local Joe goes out of business but in the end Wally sneaks its price back up without anyone realizing it happens.
I still think in-house IT provides the best service. In-house can hire the best personnel rather than simply someone with a heartbeat. Cheap labor begets poor service.

When I complained to an Indian customer service rep for AT&T, she just did not understand what my complaint really was. Neither did her manager. Culturally they just did not get it. All they could do was repeat the script AT&T gave them.

Still, I did not cause AT&T customer service to come back to the U.S.

Look for opportunity WHEREVER it is. That may NOT be in I.T. I am pursuing a different career altogether after two years of looking for my "next" I.T. job. There are still THOUSANDS of people around Raleigh, NC who are looking for THEIR next I.T. job. I don't want to move away. So I am changing careers to something I am better suited for anyway. (It's about time.)

If YOUR job can be outsourced. . .start looking for a job that CANNOT. If you must get different training. . .get it now. NOT when you're unemployed. And do not get more training in what everyone else has; like MCSE, or A+, OR SQL.

Learn how to network with PEOPLE. A voice over the phone can never replace someone who looks you in the eye.

The world has changed from the 1990's. Change yourself to match. Don't waste this time trying to pretend it is still the 1990's.

You cannot lose with God's help. I would not want to try, without.

About the only way to say NO to overseas outsourcing is to not buy products where that is their mode of operation.
If we continue to support the companys bottom line, whats the motivation for them stop.

What ever happens the public will vote with their dollar, if -BIG IF - they have a choose. I'm not but are you happy to have your credit history in a third world country? What about your medical history?

Well it's probability there already. As to out sourcing -- programing -- Tech support or anything for that matter. It's happened or will happen.

The quality and security of it is still to be determined.

The main question of the post, does the free posting of tech tips and tricks, best practices add to outsourcing?

No I can't see it as any real or gross threat.

Even with step by step instruction and 3 x 5 color glossies and Cliff notes there has to be a basic knowledge and infrastructure available.

A little knowledge is dangerous, a lot of knowledge and no skill, wisdom to use it is deadly.

Short term.

Hence the fact that scripted help-desks, cut--copy and paste programing may work for simple things in a quick and dirty manner, but in the long run it will not prove out to be a good value.

However -- BIG HOWEVER.

As resource's and technology changes that may not stay the case.

SO post what your feel like, even that super cool back handed over under tweak for printer services in Windows 2003,4 5, what ever server. I don't think it will hurt.

On the other hand if you post something proprietary or marketable.....Well..Was it really a bump on the head that gave us the flux capacitor or was a news group post?

BradW

I assume you meant 'what is a redneck', not 'who is a redneck'.

I grew up on a farm until age 16, so I understand it a little, but never heard the termmuch, someone explained it to me as being derived from a farmer, who is out in the fields all day long, usually wearing a baseball cap to protect his head from the sun, and the only part of him that ever gets a suntan is the back of his neck, hence the term 'redneck'.

I don't know how to verify this, but it makes sense. This leads to the common idea that most farmers and country 'fishin', huntin', beer drinkin' country boys (rednecks) usually don't have a clue about global issues but that doesn't stop them from sounding off with their opinion about any and all things. after all, they heard it on the television, so it MUST be true.

A lot of Americans think they know a lot about the world even though they have never traveled more than 200 miles from their birthplace simply because they have seen everything via their satellite/cable equipped televisions.

Like I said, I don't know how to verify this, if someone out there can correct me or provide more info on this, feel free.

I agree with junkie on this matter, as in most areas of our open society we are trusting and cooperative with others to beneifit the overall good and to help others. We and including the corprate heads need to understand that most of the world does not have even similar standards that we in the west have. We give so much away to those who have an ultimate objective of bringing down western civilazation.

This true in the tech world were countries are undercutting American workers pay because they know that by eroding our base employment in the advanced fields we are slowly becoming weaker while we freely dispense critical knowledge to other parts of the world in hope of open and fare trade.

The question is is there a real desire to put up a wall saying enough is enough. For once putting ourselves first. The need is there but is the will there?

Companies going "off shore" for there employment and services may save a buck or 2 now but ultimately it will cost as they are pumping money into those wishing us harm.

Exactly.
You may guess from an id where the question or answer comes from but that is the only geographic hint that is normally given - and it maybe false.
I work internationally so although my id maybe country based it's not where I'm working.

I think the real answer to this one is the viewing perspective.
You have to look at your glass and believe that it's half full, not half empty. i.e. be positive.

Your chosen monika is apt - stress junkie - I guess you've labelled yourself that because of your lifestyle.

Ever considered that you suffer from stress because you are letting fear and paranoia rule your thinking?

The world has always progressed forwards and will continue to do so whether you, I or anyone else elects to help the less knowledgeable. We all need that help initially and what does it matter if it is here (Western world) or India that the help is given or gleaned from?

The fact is that the world's bosses have elected to go to India and the like to save money - us bleating in here will not resolve that. The way to resolve it, I believe, is for us to make ourselves irreplaceable without some major effort on behalf of the bosses. Train yourself up, become indispensible, make yourself everybodies right hand person (PC rules!!!!!) and so on.

I also firmly believe that these things go in cycles. End users want "good customer support" and I think if we address that first then "our jobs" will stop going abroad. Over my few (20) years in the trade the number one complaint is that of poor customer support - little things like a phone call when a job is dragging on, or to say you are running a little late .... it doesn't take much effort but IME I don't see a lot of it going on in the places I have worked.

Just my 2p.

There have been so many discussions on this topic in various shades and in various times of history. I want to make one point on companies' behalf or rather the state of things as they actually are. This is the truth and has been repeating in this world history, so many times.

Companies outsource not just to improve bottomlines, but in an effort to survive. If company A does not reduce costs, company B will, and company A may be wiped out totally, making all employees of company A to lose jobs. (This is the simplest way of putting it, though it is actually not so simple.)

When you weigh the options of few lost jobs against the company closing out, you would definitely appreciate the first choice. As Oz has posted, we all should do what we want to do and need to do, so do these companies.

We can elaborate on this topic and end up discussing so many things like equal sharing, care for fellow humans, etc. But the survival instinct always wins and this is what has been keeping the earth rotating.

All this discussion is because we are bothered about survival, like these companies have done.

Why blame only these companies..

I'm not going to go on for long about this, but it very easy to get angry about overseas people "taking" US jobs. HOWEVER - You would do the same thing they're doing if you were in thier shoes - and it would be okay, because we're "Muricans "!

I think that our economy is becoming more and more Global. This problem is not exclusive to IT.

The sooner we get used to that concept and the sooner we all learn how to react to it positively, the happier we'll all be.

I agree with Oz up there. I've done a lot of crappy jobs in my time to get the bills paid. I thank God every day that I have a decent job now - and I realize that I may not have it tomorrow.
I feel the same way about "doing what you have to do" - in fact, I may just plagiarize that little blurb at the end - about not doing something because you can't do something else - Hope ya don't mind Oz.

I think you got to the root of the employment issue. We as individuals can't control world, national, or regional trends that affect the employment picture. But by remaining proactive, creative, and positive, we'll be a lot more able to handle these changes. (I'm not especially religious, but I do believe that when God closes a door, He opens a window.)

If at all possible, it's best to live "below" one's means. You want to have some "go-to-hell" money in the bank, or at least not be up to your derriere in debt. This will make a huge difference in your stress level, should you become unemployed or underemployed.

Good luck to all!

We are all in this together, and helping hands across political borders is what helps make the world a better place. The US is not the only repository of knowledge on the planet, what if technicians in other countries keep their knowledge secret?
The idea that somehow sharing your knowledge will lead to a loss of your job to someone in India (horrors!) is a sad reminder of the 'fear account' which all too many strive to pay into. Remember when Japan was the evil economic empire that threatened your job? Stop living in fear and get organized.
Your job walked because the globalist economy is based on rip-off capitalism. As wages go down rates of traded goods fall off and wages have to be cut again (and again and again). Nobody on the top side of the economy cares as long as their stock prices and salaries stay high. There is a moral to the story, in the end nobody can buy goods except at Christmas when the 'tax rebate' comes. That is extreme capitalism's dilemma and dumping on your colleagues overseas isn't going to help you fix that problem. Working with them might.

Most of my newer customers have fallen victim to this type of assault. Over here we have hardware salesmen/women selling you exactly what they have in stock rather than what is required by a business. While this may prove usefully to their bottom line I've seen cases where there is no software at all other than Windows on a business computer and even then it's mostly the "Home" version sold as a complete package.

Unfortunately this is on the increase with sales people selling the goods and then getting the cheapest person around to pull some cable in a business. There was one really bad case recently where I was asked to install a CD reader in a machine and when I walked into the place I ended up with 4 weeks work fixing and supplying what wasn't sold in the first place. But what made it even better was when I finished the guy who was supposed to pull the cable return {only 14 weeks after leaving and never calling to say when he would be back} to finish off his work by that time I'd fitted all the network points into wall plates where previously they had just been hanging out of the wall installed all required software and fitted everything that they had bought.

Of course the person who was supposed to perform the work was a bit miffed particularly when he learnt that I had sold them software and his only comment was "I could have supplied that!" When I walked into the place they only had e-mail so if they needed to transfer a file between workstations they e-mailed it to the person who required the file. Now their ISP rented space on a US server so the e-mail went from one desk to their local server then to the US then back to the local ISP server then to the workstation 10 feet from the original sending point.

Of course they where unaware that with a network they could just transfer files across their own cables without leaving the building or running up large ISP bills for all the downloaded stuff that they had previously been sending. But they did get a professional salesperson to sell them what they needed and supply a person to setup the network. When I run across things like this happening it only makes it harder for the honest IT people out there to work as when you have been ripped off by these shonky people they then think everyone's out to take as much of their money as possible and not offer a service. Interestingly enough one of their complaints was that the spell checker wasn't working on their new computers and all they had installed was XP nothing else. How anybody expected them to function was beyond me.

Col

Even though it isn't what they need and quite often works out far more expensive to get working in the way that they need it to go.

I've seen far too many cases where a company who doesn't really understand IT just gets a quote form someone who thinks they know what is required sells the hardware and maybe even organize a person to come in and setup the network and then they find that they need a whole bunch of new hardware & software to get the system working. Recently I saw one company who had fallen into this trap by buying cheap rubbish computers and set them up on a peer to peer network all 15 workstations and without any server and XP Home installed 5 of the computers where locked out of the system at a time.

But the so called profession who sold them the computers told them that it would work. I just love things like this as the sales person gets their commission and then walks away from the mess that they have created.

Col

What is going on? What has happened to the camaraderie of the IT industry, the sharing of information is something that helped myself and many people grow in this profession. You cannot blame an IT person from another country because they might be working as an outsourced solution. THEY did not take your job away; a free global economy possibly took your job away.

Living with the fact that you are possibly training your replacement is something that we all live with on a daily basis, when the new IT kid comes into the office and asks how to add permissions you cold be training him/her to replace you. IT is IT no matter where you reside, and I used to pride myself on the level of information sharing that took place. Your comments scare the hell out of me, as do the posters that agree with you.

This mindset is becoming more and more prevalent in today?s society; it encompasses many industries in the US/Can/UK/Aus. IT, Movies, Auto, Steel, Beef, Dairy and the list goes on. We all have to remember that we cannot be everything to everybody. Don?t blame the person sitting at a desk in India making a living, blame the consumer for demanding lower prices VS. buying locally.

My 2 cents?..

If you look back in history, many of the manufacturing jobs went to Mexico and Asia. Why? Cost and the fact that the job could be done somewhere else. And an even more pointed question, why are we surprised now that Operations and Support job are leaving? As soon as the US-based companies tap the Indian market, India will outsourse their contracts as well. In fact, some of their work is already starting to end up in Mexico. Honestly, the quality of help-desk support has never been good, even when it was based in the US, so why not outsource it? This is an issue with the Operations department of the company. Who's at fault? Look at your upper management. How is a company to remain competitve and viable? And I guess more importantly, what can be done about outsourcing?

We are a consumer-based nation. We pay our entertainers (athletes and movie personae), but not our service people (teachers, police officers, fire fighters, etc) and yell at our waiters when the bread is too cold, and the water is too hot. And with a global economy, doesn't that point to moving jobs that can be done elsewhere to those places?

What did those steel and automobile manufacturers do? What can any person do other than reorganize yourself, retrain yourself and retool yourself into a new position. They didn't stick around the mills and plants waiting for the lights to come back on. It might suck at first, but I'm not saying it's easy. What "can't" a company outsource. Start there and figure out what you like to do.

All in all, this a result of our culture, not of a single company / industry. Many of the companies that outsource have done so for years. Support and helpdesk are just extensions of that outsourcing; software development started going first. I mean who cares if the Java code was written by the Indian Andy from Souix City, Iowa or the Indian Rajesh from New Delhi? example. Additionally, most companies aren't sending their entire operations and support functions overseas willy-nilly. Most are doing it smartly, and some are even pulling those jobs back to the US.

I guess the job that I would do if they started outsourcing Information Security is either building custom motorcycles, start playing professional poker or pick up a Government job.

Hello,
While I was 1st level tech support for WIN9x, the majority of the people in my group could not troubleshoot problems. We spent the majority of the time asking mentors what to do. As I was proficient in troubleshooting, I was able to solve problems, but the time to complete diagnosis was more than allowed. I quit because many of my co-workers worked while under drugs. I did not trust the group for my life. This cost money that international companies are not willing to spend.

When one company reported success in the wilderness, many followed.

Greatly appreciate the ellegant response.
LOL, maybe I should go back to being a data analyst and get paid for the same kind of reference work. - At least for me, that paid more regularly than my switch over to IT, about when the dot com bubble burst, has since then.

:) IT is more fun though. :)

I can't blame outsourcing very much for my current woes, but I can beat up on the general economic situation which has caused slowdowns in IT infrastructure investment. And some overextended outsourcing was a componet of that breakdown.

If you try to artificially inflate prices, the market will make you pay, usually alot worse than you bargain for.

You can't stop the free market.

Even M$ is outsourcing their development ISA is made in Israel and M$ boast about this at their Partner meetings as well as numerous other products that they develop. Buying Genuine M$ by no means means that you are buying US made or developed.

Col

I've been saying exactly the same thing for a very long time now with almost no one even thinking "Could it Actually Happen!"

But what no one is willing to accept is that we no longer produce enough of the goods that we need to even defend ourselves if hostilities where to break out on a larger front than they currently are.

With the US President always using the word "God" in a lot of his statements it can be a very real possibility that the current conflict could escalate into a full blown war between the Christian and Islamic worlds. Now I realize that GWB statements are for domestic consumption but they are exactly what the radical Islamic factions want as what is quite rightly a "War on Terror" can very easily be turned into what is perceived as a "War on Islam."

Now if that was to occur most of the manufactured electronic components would no longer be available for the Western world to use in weapons to at the very least in that event occurring defend themselves let along go on an all out offensive.

Col

Of course we are all consumers. That was my point.

I'll take your "points" one at a time:

"...1 million jobs have been lost and millions have been thrown into poverty"

Just because you lose your job does not meen you are automatically thrown into "poverty". According to the US Labor Department the US economy "lost" 7 Million + jobs in 4th qtr 2003 and "gained" 7 Million + jobs in the same qtr. The economy is a dynamic thing, it is not a "zero-sum" game.

The unemployment rate is at 5.4 % as of the end of August. That is not bad when compared to other countries or when compared to other years in the US Economy. Again, according the US Labor Dept, from 1990 to 2003 the unemployed rate has fluctuated from a high in 1992 of 7.5% and a low of 4.0% in 2001, with an average in those years of 5.6%. By contrast countries like Canada (7.3%), Germany (8.0%), France (9.1%!), and Italy (9.3%!!), we are not doing badly.

--Of course the world is not a "stable" place thats why the US has to remain strong militarily and economicaly, which it has under George Bush (although the "peace dividend" caused our military to shrink, but that is another subject and the tech boom crash affected the economy). One thing I'd like you remember is that the extremely low, by historical standards, unemployment rates of the 1990s where anomolies when compared to the unemployment rates of other years and periods.

"What is going to happen when the **** hits the fan finally and countries like China (who aren't exactly are friends despite appearances) no longer sends us our cheap electronics and other goods?" as you so eloquently put it.

Well I'll tell you. Their economy is going to implode. They need our "market" as much if not more than we need their products. We can always find other producers willing to make the products we need. China cannot find a more rich and more "consumer" (that word again) oriented society on the planet.

I'm going to try to be gentle...
You need to study some history and economics (I've mentioned some books you can start with in other post on this discussion) and then really think through what are the real FACTS and not rely solely on "gut" feelings and propaganda that you've heard.

I think it was Samuel Clements who said there are "Lies, Bloody Lies and Statistics!"

What you need to back up your figures with is exactly what the 7 Million + jobs that where created where. Did they pay as much? More? Less? where they Part Time? Casual?

It's all well and good saying that there where as many jobs created as those lost but there is a new class emerging which we call the "Working Poor" who work in a position that actually ends up costing them money to work as compared to sitting at home collecting Unemployment Benefits.

Oh by the way China isn't really a problem to us but the Islamic world is as they are not concerned by loss of their populations lives or economy only destroying what they consider as the "Infidel!" Unfortunately the Islamic world isn't confined to the Middle East but to a lot of those countries who supply the cheap labor and lack of safety precautions that we demand in our countries.

If you honestly believe for a single minute that these people are more concerned by their countries economy rather than destroying their perceived enemies I have several real estate investments that may interest you. The first is commonly called the "Golden Gate Bridge" then there is the "Sydney Harbor Bridge" and the longest unsupported bridge in the world for sale are you interested in any or all of these investments?

Col

As always, there are some great posts here and the discussion is lively. As some members have mentioned, it's not our charitable willingness to help that is the problem. Rather, it's our governments (both Reps and Dems) self-destructive habit of pushing these ill-conceived "Free trade" agreements.

Whatever evil we blame on corporations, it must be understood that the regulations, taxes, off-shoring incentives and elimination of tariffs by our own government are what encourage and enable this trend.

Excellent coverage of free trade and its sister subject of illegal immigration and how it impacts our jobs and economy is available in a current special issue of the New American (www.TheNewAmerican.com) magazine. Also, get up to speed on, and activate Congress to stand against these NAFTA expansions at: www.StopTheFTAA.org

- Dave

The reply to everyone of you is simple, you are being outmatched and overrun by your competitors and now you are really frustrated. The comments from you people reflect the agony and frustration that is with in you.

But the answer to all this is simple. You all "out of work" techs have to live with this truth that you have been overtaken by the people who demand less fortune for the same skills that you people have got, perhaps better. And I dont see this process of outsourcing revercing because techs in south asia are learning and improving their skills in much faster pace than you people living in the so called first world countries, so the quality maybe not upto the mark now but it will be soon. Becuase what you people have achieved in 50 years, people in outsourced countries have achieved in 5. So buckle yourself up techies, rough ride ahead. And be ready for the competition.

Outsourcing isn't an issue. But I do have some problems with the M$ activation line when I ring up to activate a product after a reload as the accents are so thick that it is sometimes very hard to understand the person on the other end of the phone line.

But I do have to disagree with what you've claimed that SE Asia has got in 5 years what the Western World took 50 years to develop after all it was that 50 years of development that the people in South East Asia are using now to develop their skills and without it they would not be in the running. It is another case of people being bought by Big Business who's only concern is their bottom line and to hell with the people who produce their sales no matter if it be technical support or product example code writing or whatever else. The only constant here is the continued use and abuse of the people who are responsible for creating the product while those that sit on their bums doing very little get massive pay increases and benefits.

This is something that Japan has learn that hard way about 10 years ago when they where producing a lot of manufactured product they eventually priced themselves out of the market and the manufacturing positions where moved offshore to countries where there where cheaper labor rates but even then the companies continued to increase their profits at the workers expense.

It's about time that you wake up to the fact that you're being used and abused and the company who employees workers in SE Asia at the moment will be only too happy to move their current operations from those countries when something cheaper becomes available.

Anyway the original poster was asking the question "Should We Support those who are Replacing Us" and by your response I get the impression that we should willingly support those workers in SE Asia with our expertise so they can improve their qualifications with out actually doing the required work. Maybe you think that this is OK but to me it smacks of cheating just like the exam or assignment questions that we regularly see posted here. Are you implying that we should willingly answer these questions? When we know full well that the person asking them is only after a quick fix and is not willing to perform the work required to do the job properly. Personally I really don't give a dam who asks questions I'll answer them if I can provided that I don't get the impression that I'm being used. After all if our experience is what is really required shouldn't we be getting compensation for our knowledge instead of making someone else look better than what they actually are?

Col

I complained to Dell about the level of service that I got when my call for support landed me in a call center in Bangladore.

The indian gentleman that I spoke with was very polite and patient, but all he could do was read documentation to me. Since I pay an annual fee for this support, I felt cheated enough that I called my Dell sales rep to complain.

Since then, Dell has dropped overseas support for servers on support contracts although the home and desktop support still goes to India.

Complain and boycott -- it helps !!

...I think it is obnoxiously filthy rich. Indians who work in IT are getting loaded so much with money that they do not know what to do with the money. They squander it away.
In terms of dollars it might be low, but for the lifestyle and culture of India, Indians IT workers get paid remarkably well. You have to compare the money they make with the money non-IT Indian workers make. It is pathetic.

The lifestyle of an Indian IT worker is far better than non-IT Indian worker.

re:
Now left-wing, we're talking USSR, China, East Germany - they're the ones that wanted to cut ties. They built the walls to "protect" their economies.
------ -----

At the risk of getting off topic, while those were indeed leftist nations - the policy of isolationism is, indeed, right-wing. But I agree with your point - isolationism is not a good way to grow a business.

re:
John Kerry (a right-winger??? lol!) has made the issue of off-shoring a campaign issue: no tax credits to companies off-shoring. Bush is opposed to such measures.
----- -----

That's simply not true. Kerry didn't make offshoring an issue - the fact that so many millions of jobs were sent overseas is what made it an issue.

Furthermore, Bush has indeed been giving credits to companies that send their jobs overseas, and openly says that it's a good thing.

In fact, on the $86B that Kerry "flip-flopped" on, when he voted FOR the bill it was written one way - but when he voted AGAINST it, one reason was that the Bush Republicans attached riders that would have given ADDITIONAL tax breaks and credits to companies that send jobs overseas.

Also, in passing the PATRIOT ACT, Bush Republicans did the same thing with regards to off-shoring. The draft that was passed around and reviewed was straight-forward. But when it passed, it included provisions for allowing companies that moved their operations overseas to avoid US taxes to continue to do business with the US government.

You can argue all day and night if off-shoring is a good thing or not - but don't think for a minute that Bush is "opposed to such measures".

But when people have to sell their bones just to get some form of medical treatment I do get concerned. India like a lot of the countries in that area have some really advanced equipment and then a few miles away total hovels. I just think there should be a better way of dealing with the population that's all.

When my sister was at Uni she had to buy a Skeleton for her studies and it was cheaper to buy the real thing from India than a plastic one made locally. Now currently we have Australian Aboriginals trying to recover parts of their ancestors form various paces around the world and at the same time the medical suppliers are importing real skeletons into AU for medical students.

I've worked in some of these places and what brought it home to me a long time ago was when I was approached to oversee a "Medical Cyclotron" he in AU that was being projected and when I went down to see the people responsible for this project I was told that this was the latest technology that would be "World Class" and lead the world in what we would be capable of doing. My response was that India already had 3 of these things and had had them for over 30 years so I couldn't actually see how they where going to make AU into the leading country in that area. Granted we would have had a better technology only because it was newer but there where quite a few issues that where never overcome and the project at this stage has not been proceeded with but it was envisaged that we would be producing medical Isotopes for PET scanners. Currently we are still importing these from the USA and as such they have to have very long "Half Life's" to be usable here {they must have a far longer shelf life as they need to remain usable during transport and storage} than what they would if they where produced locally. It is things like this that need addressing in India as they currently have a vast technology but very few of the people get any benefit from it.

Col

My biggest pet hate is GOVERNMENT WASTE and I've seen quite a lot of it from my years dealing with them. Now I don't do any government or medical work but I'm old enough and ugly enough not to want most of them allowing me near their places as I always cause havoc and throw the rules out the window and implement something better. You should have been at that meeting that I mentioned previously it was hilarious when I pointed out to them I could create a fission reaction without breaking one of their safety rules. Apparently the Bureaucrats had spent something like 5 years writing the safety manual and it took me less than 5 minutes to tear it apart. Luckily all the industry people knew me or I most likely would have been arrested as a terrorist by the way the bureaucrats thought about me.

Col

"To maximize profits." kind of sums it up. There used to be a concept in this country to charge a fair market value for goods and services. However, in this day of corporate greed, that has changed to a whatever the market will bear mentality. But it's still all about supply and demand. If corporate America can get away with it, they will. The options are simple, buy from companies whose policies you agree with and enact change via the political system.

My 2 cents.

Sorry, guys, but having recently left a large overseas telco, I'll tell you where the problem lies: American corporate culture.
Sorry about that, but our telco had a very mature attitude toward IT spend and service-delivery. Then our gov't, under pressure from the IMF, sold company shares to SBC. SBC considered this an open door, and flooded our top management with a bunch of MBA wannabe's that then turned the whole system on its head. The IT dept started spouting all the management double-speak that gets companies into crap:instead of focussing in the customer, we now focus on profits for the shareholder, reducing costs at the expense of excellence, and dumbing-down the worker so that management can rule unopposed. So now we buy hardware and software based on cost-out-the-box, and ignore long-term expenses, because that appears to be either a) the problem for next year's budget b) the problem of the next management team when we dump our shares and move on......
End of rant.

I to have seem many cases of accountants taking over good companies and ruining them in very short order but at the same time giving themselves large bonuses on top of their already over priced payments.

They without a single exception never consider anything further down the track than the current years PROFITS! Even if they do stay on they then set about blaming the staff for failing to carry out their directives when the next years profits fail to meet expectations. But at the same time award themselves horrendous bonuses again.

These people are good for about 2 years and after that they leave as they can see the writing on the wall and in most cases the company just falls into disrepair and eventually fails or if it is a necessary corporation ends up by being a drain on the Public Purse. Either way they trash what was a perfectly good company with a tremendous reputation with the public in general so the company is doomed after they get their grubby hands on the books.

Col

While it sounds like a good idea to buy your countries products it is not always easy. You have to find a product that your country still makes as apposed to just selling an overseas import.

I ran across a very good example of this last year when I bought a Bell Crash Helmet they are the only ones I ever wear as well as being considered as the INDUSTRY STANDARD and I was horrified when it arrived as I found a "Made in Italy" sticker on the inside. Now I've only been using Bel crash helmets for a little over 25 years now and that was the first one that I had ever seen that was not American Made.

Col

By buying American you will make American businesses less competitive because they do not have to compete with low cost countries.
Knowledge is power. US companies that use low cost countries to compete will survive and keep higher paying jobs in the US instead of going to Europe or Japan.
If you would just buy American, you are actually slowly killing US Businesses. You will be taking purchasing power out of your paycheck, prompting you to request a payraise, making US services and products more expensive=less competitive and your job will go overseas.
Outsourcing has existed for decades and we are only doing better. Don't worry and buy what you want to buy.

I do not see any point in fretting and fuming that "others" are doing your job. That way you are only hitting the symptom, while the actual reason you lost your job is because the companies whose products their customers purchased are the ones who decide who should support their customers. If you do not like the Customer service, call the company and tell them so. No point beating your chests over the Tech. Support people. You must remember, just like you, they have also been trained by the same company, to do the same job. How does it matter, who hosts their email addresses ? Whether yahoo or hotmail or any body else?

You lost a job? Go find another one; or follow the jobs. Do you know how many people from "USA, Canada, Australia and Britain" are following their jobs? By scolding those who got your job, you are only wasting your time, because they are not going to give it back to you, because they did not take it from you; they took it from their employer. As long as you continue to do that, you are making yourselves the butt of their jokes. Would that help you in any way? Would that change things in any way?

Be creative and help yourselves.

God Bless the World!

Last week I had my local Snapon Dealer come around and supply a specialist tool. Now it has been a few years since I've actually been inside one of their trucks as I don't tend to loose to many tools and being Snapon they just do not break or wear out. But occasionally I do need to by something new as new things come out with different screws and other things that are required to pull things apart.

Well we all know that Snapon is a USA company which sells the tools that GOD prefers to use they are really that good.

But to my horror when I walked into the van there where the usual assortment of Snapon tools there where also a very large number of the Blue Point range as well. These are the cheap knock offs that are sold by Snapon but while supposedly being good do not meet Snapon's exacting standards. Now I do not know exactly where this brand is made but by the quality they sure as hell are not USA made but an ever increasing range is now being supplied by the Snapon agents.

Col