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The Chicken Hawk Parade

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by peter warren 1 view

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Take a look at this list of those who served in the military and those who didn?t. In a strikingly inverse relationship, neo-con Republicans who advocate war avoided military service when it was their turn. Although they have no problem sending other people to war, it looks like most neo-con Republicans had no stomach for it themselves. I propose a new holiday to honor these neo-con blowhards: national hypocrisy day. You can find more information about the Chicken Hawks at http://www.angelfire.com/ok5/pearly/htmls/gop-chickens.html.

Prominent Democrats
? Representative Jack Murtha (D-PA) - distinguished 37-year career in the U.S. Marine Corps, Bronze Star and two Purple Hearts, retired from the Marine Corps Reserve as a colonel in 1990. (1)
? Representative Richard Gephardt, former House Minority Leader - Missouri Air National Guard, 1965-71. (1, 2)
? Representative David Bonior - Staff Sgt., United States Air Force 1968-72 (1, 2)
? Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle - 1st Lt., U.S. Air Force SAC 1969-72 (1, 2)
? Former Vice President Al Gore - enlisted August 1969; sent to Vietnam January 1971 as an army journalist, assigned to the 20th Engineer Brigade headquartered at Bien Hoa, an airbase twenty miles northeast of Saigon. More facts about Gore's Service
? Former Senator Bob Kerrey... Democrat... Lt. j.g., U.S. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam (1, 2)
? Senator Daniel Inouye, US Army 1943-'47; Medal of Honor, World War Two (1, 2)
? Senator John Kerry, Lt., U.S. Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V, and three awards of the Purple Heart for his service in combat (1)
? Representative Charles Rangel, Staff Sgt., U.S. Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea (1, 2)
? Former Senator Max Cleland, Captain, U.S. Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam (1, 2)
? Senator Ted Kennedy (D-MA) - U.S. Army, 1951-1953. (1)
? Senator Tom Harkin (D-IA) - Lt., U.S. Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74. (1, 2)
? Senator Jack Reed (D-RI) - U.S. Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91 (1)
? Senator Fritz Hollings (D-SC) - served as a U.S. Army officer in World War II, receiving the Bronze Star and seven campaign ribbons. (1)
? Representative Leonard Boswell (D-IA) - Lt. Col., U.S. Army 1956-76; two tours in Vietnam, two Distinguished Flying Crosses as a helicopter pilot, two Bronze Stars, and the Soldier's Medal. (1, 2)
? Former Representative "Pete" Peterson, Air Force Captain, POW, Ambassador to Viet Nam, and recipient of the Purple Heart, the Silver Star and the Legion of Merit. (1, 2)
? Rep. Mike Thompson, D-CA: Staff sergeant/platoon leader with the 173rd Airborne Brigade, U.S. Army; was wounded and received a Purple Heart. (1, 2)
? Bill McBride, Democratic Candidate for Florida Governor - volunteered and served as a U.S. Marine in Vietnam; awarded Bronze Star with a combat "V." (1)
? Gray Davis, former California Governor, Army Captain in Vietnam; received Bronze Star. (1)
? Pete Stark, D-CA, served in the Air Force 1955-57
? Wesley Clark, Democratic Presidential Candidate - lengthy military career.

Prominent Republicans
? Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert - avoided the draft, did not serve.
? Former House Majority Leader Dick Armey - avoided the draft, did not serve.
? House Majority Leader Tom Delay - avoided the draft, did not serve (1). "So many minority youths had volunteered ... that there was literally no room for patriotic folks like himself."
? House Majority Whip Roy Blunt - did not serve
? Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist - did not serve. (An impressive medical resume, but not such a friend to cats in Boston.)
? Majority Whip Mitch McConnell, R-KY - did not serve (1)
? Rick Santorum, R-PA, third ranking Republican in the Senate - did not serve. (1)
? Former Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott - avoided the draft, did not serve.
? Secretary of Defense Don Rumsfeld - served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as an aviator and flight instructor. (1) Served as President Reagan's Special Envoy to the Middle East and met with Saddam Hussein twice in 1983 and 1984.
? GW Bush - decided that a six-year Nat'l Guard commitment really means four years. Still says that he's "been to war." Huh?
? VP Cheney - several deferments (1, 2), the last by marriage (in his own words, "had other priorities than military service") (1)
? Former Att'y Gen. John Ashcroft - did not serve (1, 2); received seven deferment to teach business ed at SW Missouri State
? Jeb Bush, Florida Governor - did not serve. (1)
? Karl Rove - avoided the draft, did not serve (1), too busy being a Republican.
? Former Speaker Newt Gingrich - avoided the draft, did not serve (1, 2)
? Former President Ronald Reagan - due to poor eyesight, served in a noncombat role making movies for the Army in southern California during WWII. He later seems to have confused his role as an actor playing a tail gunner with the real thing.
? "B-1" Bob Dornan - avoided Korean War combat duty by enrolling in college acting classes (Orange County Weekly article). Enlisted only after the fighting was over in Korea.
? Phil Gramm - avoided the draft, did not serve, four (?) student deferments
? Senator John McCain - McCain's naval honors include the Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross. Why did the Bush campaign smear him so? At least Senators Cleland (D-GA), Kerry (D-MA), Kerrey (D-NE), Robb (D-VA) and Hagel (R-NE) defended him.
? Former Senator Bob Dole - an honorable man. http://www.bobdole.org/bio/wwII.php
? Chuck Hagel - two Purple Hearts and a Bronze Star, Vietnam. http://www.senate.gov/~hagel/Information/bio.htm
? Duke Cunningham - nominated for the Medal of Honor, received the Navy Cross, two Silver Stars, fifteen Air Medals, the Purple Heart, and several other decorations Recently entered plea bargain on felony charges of bribery, etc. etc.
? Senator Jeff Sessions U.S. Army Reserves, 1973-1986
? Colin Powell. What are we to make of Powell? On the one hand, a long career as a military manager. On the other hand, accused of covering up the My Lai massacre. Back on that first hand, one of the seemingly sane voices in this administration when it comes to Iraq (or at least he used to be). On the other hand, a clear hypocrite ("I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units...")
? Representative Wayne Gilchrest (R-MD), served in USMC in Vietnam; wounded in action.
Here are a few more...
Democrats
? Chuck Robb, US Senator from Virginia, served in Vietnam
? Howell Heflin... Democrat... Silver Star
? George McGovern, famous liberal, awarded Silver Star & DFC, dozens of missions during WWII.
? Former President Bill Clinton - avoided the draft through student deferments; in the autumn of 1969, Clinton entered the draft but received a high number (311) and was never called to serve. (CNN article.) "...it was his doubts about the morality of the war and the Selective Service system that led him to abandon the ROTC idea and to subject himself to a draft lottery. Only the luck of the draw - a high lottery number - kept him out. " (Jeff Greenfield, ABC News, quoting Gov. Clinton.)
? Former President Jimmy Carter, most recent recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize, seven years in the Navy. "Except for his fellow service-academy graduate Dwight Eisenhower, no President of the twentieth century spent more years in uniform than Carter." (New Yorker Magazine)
? Former Vice President Walter Mondale, U.S. Army 1951-1953
? Former Senator John Glenn, D-OH (1974-1999) - Served in WWII and Korea; extensive military commendations include the Distinguished Flying Cross on six occasions, and the Air Medal with 18 Clusters.
? Congressman Tom Lantos, D-CA - Did not serve in the US military; did serve in the Hungarian anti-Nazi underground in WWII. Saved by Raoul Wallenberg, is the only Holocaust survivor to serve in Congress.
Republicans/Conservatives
Political
? Senator Richard Shelby, did not serve (1)
? Senator Jon Kyl, R-AZ - did not serve (1, 2)
? Senator John Cornyn, R-TX - did not serve. (1)
? Senator Tim Hutchison, R-AR - did not serve (1, 2)
? Rep. Christopher Cox, R-CA, (formerly) fifth-ranking Republican in the House - did not serve. (1)
? Rep. John T. Doolittle, R-CA, sixth-ranking Republican in the House - did not serve.
? Representative Saxby Chambliss, Georgia - did not serve (1, 2), had a "bad knee" (yet somehow feels he has a right to attack Max Cleland's patriotism)
? Former Representative JC Watts - did not serve (1, 2)
? Jack Kemp, did not serve (1, 2) (was unfit because of a knee injury, though he heroically continued as a National Football League quarterback for another eight years - source)
? Former Vice President Dan Quayle, avoided Vietnam service, got a slot in the journalism unit of the Indiana National Guard when the unit was at 150% capacity (at least he showed up for his duty, unlike GW) (1, 2)
? Eliot Abrams, did not serve (1, 2) (however, played a key role in subverting democracy in South America)
? Paul Wolfowitz, did not serve (1, 2)
? Former Representative Vin Weber, did not serve (1, 2)
? Richard Perle, did not serve (1, 2) (is the current bloodshed in the Middle East a direct result of his treasonous meddling in Clinton Administrstion foreign policy?)
? Douglas Feith, Undersecretary of Defense for Policy - did not serve. (1)
? Rudy Giuliani, did not serve (1, 2)
? Michael Bloomberg, did not serve (1, 2)
? George Pataki, did not serve (1, 2)
? Spencer Abraham, did not serve
? John Engler, did not serve (1, 2)
? Senator Lindsey Graham (R-SC) - website used to claim service as a "Operation Desert Shield and Desert Storm veteran." A current biographical website makes no such claim. In reality, was a National Guard lawyer who never left South Carolina during the Gulf War.
? Rep. Dana Rohrabacher, R-CA, did not serve (1)
? Rep. Darrell Issa, R-CA/49th, there were some problems with his service.
? Rep. John M. McHugh, R-NY - avoided the draft, did not serve (1)
? Rep. Todd Platts, R-PA - did not serve (1)
? Arnold Schwarzenegger, CA Republican Governor - went AWOL from his Austrian army base to enter a bodybuilding competition
? George Herbert Walker Bush, pilot in WWII. Awarded Navy Cross. Shot down by the Japanese; was lone survivor out of airplane (link).
? Representative Sam R. Johnson, combat missions in both Korea and Vietnam, POW in Hanoi from April 1966 to February 1973 (1)
(don't ever run for president Sam, they'll spread rumors that you're crazy)
? Senator Ted Stevens, R-AK, WW II pilot, two Distinguished Flying Crosses, two Air Medals, and the Yuan Hai medal awarded by the Republic of China.
? Sen. John Warner, R-VA - Served in the Navy 1945-1946 as a RM3; reenlisted in the USMC 1950, 10 years service in Marine Corps Reserve, retired as Captain.
? Congresswoman Heather Wilson, R-NM, served in the Air Force 1978-1989
? Former President Gerald Ford, served in the Navy, WWII
? Former Senator Strom Thurmond - apparently believes, along with Trent Lott, that America should have been a segregated society. Still, he served.
________________________________________
Fighting Democrats
Back from the front lines, and headed for Congress in 2006. Why are almost all the veterans coming home from Iraq running as Democrats?
? Paul Hackett - U.S. Senate - Ohio
Website: www.hackettforohio.com
? Charles Brown - California 4th District - 26-year career in USAF; jet and helicopter pilot; recently retired as Lt. Colonel
Website: http://www.charliebrownforcongress.org
? Patrick Murphy - Pennsylvania's 8th Congressional District
Website: www.murphy06.com
? Bryan Lentz - Pennslyvania's 7th Congressional District
Website: www.lentzforcongress.com
? David Harris - Texas 6th Congressional District
Website: http://followmetodc.com/
? David Ashe - Virginia's 2nd Congressional District
Website: http://www.davidasheforcongress.com/
? Andrew Duck - Maryland 6th Congressional District
Website at http://duckforcongress.org
? Eric Massa - New York?s 29th District
Website: www.massaforcongress.com
? Tim Dunn - North Carolina's 8th Congressional District
Website: www.dunnforcongress.com
Check out the Band of Brothers 2006, as well their candidates page, for a good list of veterans running for Congress in 2006, such as:
? Karen Marie Otter, US Army 1983-1985, California's 52nd District
www.otterforcongress.com
? Phil Avillo, lengthy career as a US Marine, Pennsylvania's 19th District
www.avilloforcongress.com
________________________________________
Punditocracy and Preacher-types (See also Media Whores Online)
? George Will, did not serve
? Chris Matthews, Mediawhore, did not serve.
? Bill O'Reilly, did not serve
? Paul Gigot, did not serve.
? Bill Bennett, Did not serve
? Pat Buchanan, did not serve
? Rush Limbaugh, did not serve (4-F with a 'pilonidal cyst' [see "The Rush Limbaugh Story" by Paul D. Colford, St. Martin's Press, 1993, Chapter 2: Beating the Draft.])
? Michael Savage (aka Michael Alan Weiner) - did not serve, too busy chasing herbs and botany degrees in Hawaii and Fiji
? John Wayne, did not serve
? Pat Robertson - claimed during 1986 campaign to be a "combat veteran." In reality, was a "Liquor Officer."
? Bill Kristol, did not serve
? Sean Hannity, did not serve.
? Kenneth Starr, did not serve
? Antonin Scalia, did not serve
? Clarence Thomas, did not serve
? Ralph Reed, did not serve
? Michael Medved, did not serve
? Charlie Daniels, did not serve
? Ted Nugent, did not serve
? Country Singer Toby Keith, did not serve. (1)
? Radio Host Phil Hendrie, did not serve.
? Ollie North - Convicted in the Iran-Contra scandal, at least he served.
? Charlton Heston - served in WWII, but went AWOL when Michael Moore asked him some tough questions.
? James Carville, a.k.a. "Corporal Cueball" - Served in the United States Marine Corps, 1966-'68. (1)
? Markos Moulitsas, a.k.a. "Kos" (leading liberal blogger) - Served in the United States Army, 1989-'92. (1)
Independents
? Gov. Jesse Ventura, U.S. Navy SEAL training, did UDT work
? Senator Jim Jeffords, U.S. Navy 1956-1959

48 replies

by jkaras

To tell you the truth I dont think you have to serve in the military to be a political official, but I do agree that one holding those particular positions understand what happens to the soldiers when they commit their lives to a supposed solution. Some of these politicians served with honor sticking their necks out for others and you and me. What they did in the past is defintely appreciated, but I dont equate politicians as heros or patriots. My justification is they dont put the country's or people's need infront of their own career or their party's agenda. If they were the patriot they claim to be then they would passs laws and adjust those accordingly to benefit the masses working with the other party. I just dont see that happeing today, yesterday, or tomorrow for that matter. It all comes down to which party is going to get the credit, backing a fellow party member when they screw up and diffuse blame to the opposing side, back door money schemes, adultry, drug use, supporting any side that has the demographics, and failure to respect the laws getting away with everything while pointing fingers at other criminals like they are a pillar to society. To me they are ALL hypocrites and liars. We allow them to destroy our country for their gain acting like the cattle we have been bred and told to be. What I find funny is we expect more from minimum wage employees for perfection then we do our leaders, now that is truly sad.

by peter warren

Why do you think we expect more from employees than political leaders? It's puzzling that we tolerate such mediocrity, hypocrisy and corruption because we don?t have to.

by jkaras

It is due to laziness. We as Americans expect others to shoulder the burden citing we paid our taxes/other persons job, what can I do I'm nobody, I have work to do, and so forth. I too am in this group of wants a change but does nothing about it. There is just a level of futility that all politics are corrupt and I'll have a more effective time bailing out the Titanic with a dixie cup then trying to talk sense to a politician. The only way we as Americans will be able to take back our country is if everyone refuses to go to work. Only then will regain control of our country, and I just dont see that happening anytime soon. Something has to give and I think it will happen sooner than later.

by dawgit

While I'm proud of those did......
The rest make me sick.!.
But, remember, the American People put them there. That's the sad part.
I think that I'll just stay living in Germany. -d

by peter warren

Unfortunately too many of the American People have been very slow on the uptake when it comes to neo-conservative bs. But pass on the chicken hawk list to your friends. Sooner or later, we will put these hypocrites back in the crapper where they belong.

by x-marcap

Do you think that is fair also?

Let's give votes by paygrade! e1-10, 1-10 votes O1-O-10 11-20 votes.

85% of those who serve currently aren't liberal. The officer Corps is strongly Republican.

I'd bet that 75% of the local VFW (Canton,OH) wouldn't ever vote for a Democrat after Kerry ran, if the world would end for them.

You complain about Chicken Hawks. How about Colin Powell, Tommy Franks, and George Bush our 41st President. The same BS came out during the first Gulf war.

Why don't you stick your commie-loving, terrorist appeasing, head back up your rear end where it recently was until you had to read this post.

by peter warren

I appreciate how you feel. The work we need to refuse is to continue allowing the likes of our politicians to get away with their bs. We can overcome our laziness a little at at time and what a difference an energized electorate will make. Remember, our "leaders" are counting on us remaining lazy.

by oneamazingwriter

and was waiting for more people to reply. I've been very surprised that they haven't. Thanks for making the post epw. Perhaps few replies means that those who like to debate know that there isn't much sense trying to deny this truth.

Again...thanks. Every male member of my family served in the armed forces. "Put your money where your mouth is" means a lot to me. Those who don't walk what they talk would bless the world by shutting up.

by jdclyde

something that agrees with what you think doesn't always register as an intentionally bias paper.

Dems that didn't server, just didn't serve.
Reps that didn't server, well lets just go into detail about that and intentionaly be as venomous as possible. Hate is never a pretty thing.

I didn't see YOUR senator Clinton on the list. hmmm.

Had this been just a list of ALL current members of Congress and a simple but factual listing of service records or N/A, there would be something to discuss.

The poster was not looking for an open, honest discussion, thus a waste of time for those of us that do. Been too many political hate posts for me to care about trying to set stupid people straight, and this was just one more example of that. Let the poster live in their hateful world alone, I don't have the time for it.

I also missed here the poster listed their own service records? hmmmmm.

by oneamazingwriter

I'm not a Democrat, jd. I don't vote in primaries, so that I can remain independent and choose whichever candidate I want at the time of election. I say that because you capitalized the word your when you refered to Senator Clinton. I don't believe Clinton ran in New Jersey, and that's where I live.

I do believe that those holding office deciding what military people are to do would do well to have first served in the military in some fashion.

You may be right, just as I may be right as to why people didn't choose to reply to this post. We won't know if people don't reply. But now, at least, you and I have replied :D (You taught me to do that so that you would know my tone) and maybe others will.

edited: because I can't use my reading glasses at the computer...it just doesn't work! LOL

by mjwx

both intent to prove that they are right by destroying each other. In my mind, eliminating the competition doesn?t make you any better.

I agree with JD, epw wasn?t looking for an open debate, just someone to stroke his ego. I?ve seen plenty of these kind of discussions from the right (Fascism) but this is the first I've seen from the left (Communism).

by puppybreath

pew just cut and pasted a page from AWOLBUSH.COM. Now there's an unbiased group of citizens if I've ever seen one. You don't actually believe that people like that could have an agenda, do you?

by maxwell edison

epw is nothing but a mouthpiece for the extreme wing of the Democrat Party. He/She does nothing but repeat the same, tired old MoveOn.org stuff. Engaging in any meaningful debate with epw is not possible. Just keep an eye on the [i]"3 kids die every second"[/i] thread to see my point. Or take a look at his/her past discussions. I've learned that epw is a waste of time. It has nothing to do with, as you suggested, "[i]know(ing) that there isn't much sense trying to deny this truth[/i]". Besides, if you can't see this [i]"truth"[/i] as nothing but partisan spin, you are just as uninformed as you have claimed to be.

Moreover, I've noticed several times when you chose not to engage me in debate. Perhaps you should follow your own advice: [i]"Those who don't walk what they talk would bless the world by shutting up.[/i].

by oneamazingwriter

Debate? :D I get in enough trouble just repling to people in discussions!! I'm just going to keep being Beth, Maxwell. That's controversial enough for now. I said I was a ditz. I walk what I talk. I stumble all over the place :D My blog is entitled The Blunders of Beth for good reason! :^0
:x
OAW

by deepsand

While I am not impressed with the current administration's ability to effectively conduct foreign affairs, be they diplomatic or military, I must concur that selective winnowing can be used by anyone to "prove" anything of their choosing.

By carefully choosing those who appeared in which portion of the list, the originator of this discussion would have us accept that the absence of proof is proof of absence.

by peter warren

Isn't amazing how the chickenhawk neo-con Republicans howl when anyone points out just how hypocritical they really are?

by maxwell edison

Cutting to the chase, AND addressing what both you and epw are implying, I challenge both you AND epw to a debate on the merits of President Bush having his position as Commander-in-Chief and the role he served with his own military service. In fact, you can expand the scope of the debate however you'd like.

Do you accept my challenge?

If not, I repeat my suggestion that you follow your own advice.

And if epw does not accept my challenge, I think you might want to reconsider you initial comments. They did nothing but display your unfamiliarity with both the issue and epw.

by maxwell edison

...and who stumbles all over the place, not savvy to the ways of the political world, and incapable of engaging in meaningful discussion, you certainly seem able to throw out the occasional pointed comment, judgement and insinuation.

I think I'm beginning to understand you a little better.

And when I deem responding to your comments a waste of my time, perhaps "AnotherAmazingWriter" will suggest that it's interesting how the "usual suspects" don't reply to your message, therefore what you say must be undeniably true. But no, that, too, will just be a waste of time.

I find it quite telling that you write such critical things, but are unwilling to back them up or discuss them.

Kinda' like a hit-and-run driver. You make an initial hit that inflicts harm or damage onto others (in the form of judgement or insinuation), but you won't stick around to explain yourself.

by maxwell edison

But first of all, I never said that you were "incapable of meaningful conversation" either!

(And before anyone claims that I took anything "out of context", just read the silly discussion messages yourself!)

---- The flow of our conversation (somewhat condensed) as follows:

"I read this two weeks ago when you (addressed to epw) posted it and was waiting for more people to reply. I've been very surprised that they haven't ..... Perhaps few replies means that those who like to debate know that there isn't much sense trying to deny this truth.....'Put your money where your mouth is' means a lot to me (serving in the armed forces, I presume) ..... Those who don't walk what they talk would bless the world by shutting up."

- oneamazingwriter

"Engaging in any meaningful debate with epw is not possible. Just keep an eye on the '3 kids die every second' thread to see my point. Or take a look at his/her past discussions. I've learned that epw is a waste of time. It has nothing to do with, as you suggested, 'know(ing) that there isn't much sense trying to deny this truth'. Besides, if you can't see this 'truth' as nothing but partisan spin, you are just as uninformed as you have claimed to be.....Moreover, I've noticed several times when you chose not to engage me in debate. Perhaps you should follow your own advice: 'Those who don't walk what they talk would bless the world by shutting up.'"

- Maxwell Edison

"I do believe that those holding office deciding what military people are to do would do well to have first served in the military in some fashion...... just as I may be right as to why people didn't choose to reply to this post...... We won't know if people don't reply"

- oneamazingwriter

(On) holding office .... served in the military ..... Cutting to the chase, AND addressing what both you and epw are implying, I challenge both you AND epw to a debate on the merits of President Bush having his position as Commander-in-Chief and the role he served with his own military service. In fact, you can expand the scope of the debate however you'd like...... Do you accept my challenge? ..... And if epw does not accept my challenge, I think you might want to reconsider you initial comments. They did nothing but display your unfamiliarity with both the issue and epw."

- Maxwell Edison

"Debate? I get in enough trouble just replying to people in discussions!! I'm just going to keep being Beth, Maxwell. That's controversial enough for now. I said I was a ditz. I walk what I talk. I stumble all over the place My blog is entitled The Blunders of Beth for good reason!"

- oneamazingwriter

For someone who claims to be a ditz and who stumbles all over the place, not savvy to the ways of the political world, and incapable of engaging in meaningful discussion (note: extrapolated from, "I get in enough trouble just replying to people in discussions"), you certainly seem able to throw out the occasional pointed comment, judgement and insinuation..... I think I'm beginning to understand you a little better. ..... And when I deem responding to your comments a waste of my time, perhaps 'AnotherAmazingWriter' will suggest that it's interesting how the 'usual suspects' don't reply to your message, therefore what you say must be undeniably true. But no, that, too, will just be a waste of time...... I find it quite telling that you write such critical things, but are unwilling to back them up or discuss them."

- Maxwell Edison

That you think I am incapable of meaningful conversation is one good reason to avoid you, Maxwell. I never said that of myself."

- oneamazingwriter

---- End of previous messages ----
----------------------------------

For the record, I said "discussion" (somewhat synonymous with debate?), not "conversation". And for good reason, perhaps?

And you'll notice, just as I predicted, that epw remains silent -- ALSO incapable and/or unwilling to engage in discussion or debate on a claim he/she initially made -- AND a claim about which you, oneamazingwriter, wondered why "those who like to debate" (presumable includes me) haven't replied, drawing your conclusion "that there isn't much sense trying to deny this truth" (the "truth" that I can get neither you or epw to discuss and debate.

And now, we're back to where we started, aren't we?

And you wonder why I didn't bother to post a reply to epw?

And you wonder why I suggest that you are not capable and/or willing to engage in meaningful discussion (not conversation) and debate.

And now you suggest that you should just avoid me?

Well, whatever floats your boat.

But like I said, It's kinda' like a hit-and-run driver. You make an initial hit that inflicts harm or damage onto others (in the form of judgement or insinuation), but you won't stick around to explain yourself. And that Perhaps you should follow your own advice: "Those who don't walk what they talk would bless the world by shutting up."

And you won't even concede one simple point. Some people, one of whom is epw, might just be a waste of time trying to engage in meaningful discussion. I've been trying. Where is it?

On my message title, I think this might illustrate going full circle. What now? Are we back to where we started, but only it is I who is wondering why neither you or epw will reply, discuss and debate. I challenged all claims, judgements and insinuations made, and I must be right since there is no reply; and there is no reply because there isn't much sense trying to deny this truth. Therefore, my last word must be the truth since no one will reply.

Do I have that right?

One last question, however, oneamazingwriter. In fact, it's the only question, really, that I have. And if you can't answer this, it will be quite revealing.

Tell me, again, why I should have replied to epw's initial discussion and what it means that I didn't?

by maxwell edison

Not only did I not reply to epw's silly message because of the reasons stated in my previous post, but by doing so would only serve to keep the discussion active. Why would I want to do that for someone like epw? (Even though this "going nowhere" dialogue with you has done that very thing!)

In short, you rushed to judgement and drew a false conclusion. And it's interesting that you won't even admit it.

by jdclyde

If you make a statement and then walk away, that is not a discussion.

A discussion is a back and fourth. You say something, I counter, you support or deny and it goes on. It does not have to be advesarial, but what you have done here is to proclaim statements. You have not discussed what it was you proclaimed. Kind of against the idea of what a "discussion" board is about, wouldn't you say?

by maxwell edison

This discussion, in general, certainly bears that out, doesn't it?

Someone makes an outrageous insinuation, I ignore it, therefore it must be right.

Someone makes an outrageous insinuation, I challenge it, then she won't discuss it.

What a colossal waste of time these discussions are becoming. Back and forth we go, only to find ourselves nowhere.

Thank, jd, for chiming in. But don't hold your breath waiting for a reasonable reply.

by maxwell edison

It appears that we have a couple of live "chicken hawks" among us. They threw out a challenge to be discussed, but they run and hide when the challenge is met head-on!

How ironically appropriate the title is.

by av .

It looks like it is a mixed bag to me. I don't think being in the military should be a "must" to hold public offices.

I understand the hypocrisy of someone who didn't go to war sending other people to war, but there are other voices in the legislature that have been to war that provide a balance. Look at John Murtha. John McCain. Remember that Republicans and Democrats both voted for this war.

This isn't a partisan issue. I think it comes down to whether you can tolerate a military lifestyle. Rich or poor. I don't see many women's names. Does that make women in our legislature irrelevant because they didn't serve?

When I look at your article I think those that have served are true patriots. Democrats and Republicans. I just don't agree that military service should be a "must" to be President.

by maxwell edison

You said that you, "understand the hypocrisy of someone who didn't go to war sending other people to war."

What about (Democrat) President Franklin D. Roosevelt? Was he a hypocrite?

What about (Democrat) President Woodrow Wilson? Was he a hypocrite?

What about (Democrat) President Bill Clinton? Was he a hypocrite?

None of those three presidents even served in the military.

President Bush was an F102 pilot in the ANG.

Moreover, are you suggesting that it's a dishonorable job to be a fighter pilot for the ANG?

Perhaps you should consider picking a different word. Hypocrite just doesn't seem right.

by av .

EPW's statement "I propose a new holiday to honor these neo-con blowhards: national hypocrisy day."

I can certainly understand how some people would feel that way. Personally, I don't, because I don't think we should choose a President or most public office holders based on their military service. Secretary of Defense, yes, that person should have a military background.

by maxwell edison

The ideology of Fascism is closer to the left, in principle, than to the right. Government control of business, government control of the population, collectivism, etc, It might come closer to the right in regards to a sense of nationalism, but that's about it. Perhaps if you thought it out, wrote it out, instead of just suggesting such a thing, you would see the error in your thinking. I forgive you, however. That's a very common misconception. And unless you can qualify the comment, I'm sure you won't make the same mistake again.

by mjwx

and Fascist Italy for my perspective. Whilst modern Fascist states are very much the way you described these states are little more than enlightened despotisms.

The capitalist system and free market flourished under Hitler and Mussolini. Companies like Krupp were able to grow by leaps and bounds, unregulated by the Nazi government. Individuals were restricted while companies and corporations (back then corporations paid a great deal of taxes) were allowed to run with few regulations. This is how Hitler completely re-industrialised Germany in 8 to 10 years. Nationalism was a way of running people, not markets or corporation (only those within the corporations) quiet a few of the Kaisers (and short lived republic) restrictions were relaxed by Hitler (advised by his close personal friends Krupp and Ferdinand Porsche). Arian and proper Germans (the Nazi ideal of a "good German") were given a lot of freedoms compared to Jews and minorities. Nationalism was meant to instil love of the state in the favoured not fear of the state, fear was reserved for the states enemies.

A good industry was key to keeping the Germans in the war for 6 years. Free speech and Free market can exist separate. Hitler was an ardent capitalist, he was attempting to corporate-alise Germany (in one of his speaches he said "we will make Germany as strong as Krupp steel"). Hitler cared only for the control of people.

by maxwell edison

Let's see, you're the guy who got his reality about the Vietnam War from the movie Apocalypse Now. You're the guy who thought that someone (me) was serious about taxing the poor, soaking them, in fact. And now you say that capitalism and free enterprise thrived in Nazi Germany.

Okay, whatever you say, dude.

By the way, which movie is that from? I always enjoy a good fiction flick.

by jamesrl

If you have any bizarre notion that a free market existed under Hitler, please, read a book or two.

Those who were of the right race (Aryan)and who held the same political views as Hitler could operate pretty much as they pleased, provided they didn't stray from the path and their management belonged to the party.

But that is hardly an open market. An open market implies free flow of capital, regardless of someone's race or poltical views.

Hitler favoured his friends at Krupp and made them more successful because of their political views - that is hardly free market capitalism. Where would Krupp have been without all the government contracts?

James

by justin james

... were hardly similar. Hitler's Germany was much more similar to Stalin's USSR than Mussolini's Italy. Mussolini despised Hitlet, because Hitler took the concept of Fascism and totally twisted it around. Italian Fascism was indeed extremely right wing; it was about the middle class. Nazism was a bizarre blend of working class populism and aristocracy. Another poster already mentioned companies like Krupps doing whatever they wanted.

Remember what "Nazi" meant: National Socialism. Hitler rode a wave of lower class ignorance and hatred into power, and once there he did two things: he implemented an economic system that ended up being much like Stalinism (not "Communism", but a system that exists purely for the enrichment of an elite few; in Germany it was company owners, in the USSR it was the high ranking members of the Communist Party, the only difference was who officially owned the companies, the state or private enterprise), and he created constant churn with both domestic policy (the racial policies, specifically) and foreign policies (war) to keep the masses happy.

Mussolini did no such thing. His economics were wholly different, aside from trying to invade Ethopia (which had been a "pet project" of Italy forever anyways), Mussolini was not really too keen on entering WWII. He knew how it would turn out. Mussolini resisted the racial laws, but eventually gave into them because he needed Hitler to cover him. Mussolini did not even like Hitler as a person.

If you compare Mussolini's writing on Facsism before he assumption of power to Hitler's writings, the difference in the way they thought and what they were about is clear as day. I am not coming to Mussolini's defense here, just clearing up a common misperception. Italian Fascism was close enough to mainstream politics so that after WWII, Fascists were able to go back into the fold. Nazism, on the other hand, was so extreme as to be completely stamped out (officially, at least) from Germany.

J.Ja

by jdclyde

because they are out there. anywhere pew (I mean epw) has been is a good place to start.

A hateful lot, that group of tolerant people they are.

by maxwell edison

Okay, I'll buy that. In fact, epw needs to choose a LOT of different words.

As far as military experience being a prerequisite for ANY government position, although it sounds nice, it's just not practical. Moreover, the founders set it up the way it is in order to specifically maintain civilian control over the military. You'll probably find a lot on that subject the next time you browse through the Federalist Papers. And the military, itself, certainly has a lot of representation the way it's been, considering the structure of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Actually, I like it that way it is. It's worked pretty well throughout our history. Your comments sound more partisan and knee-jerk to me, rather than something that's been well thought-out.

by av .

Like it or not. I can't make a blanket statement that ALL public offices should be held by people with no military service. I looked at your other posts about Rumsfield's background and Clinton's Defense Secretaries that had no military background. In today's world, a Secretary of Defense should have military experience. Maybe not Donald Rumsfield though. I think he should step down.

I don't think that it is necessary for other public positions, but I want to know that our Defense Secretary understands the implications of war. In the Clinton era, we didn't have the war on terror, as defined by 9/11. Things are different now.

by maxwell edison

.
Donald Rumsfeld attended Princeton University on academic and NROTC scholarships (A.B., 1954) and served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as an aviator and flight instructor. In 1957, he transferred to the Ready Reserve and continued his Naval service in flying and administrative assignments as a drilling reservist until 1975. He transferred to the Standby Reserve when he became Secretary of Defense in 1975 and to the Retired Reserve with the rank of Captain in 1989.

by maxwell edison

William S. Cohen, President Clinton's third Defense Secretaty: Did not serve

William J. Perry, President Clinton's second Defense Secretaty: Did not serve

Bobby R. Inman, President Clinton's hope to become his second Defense Secretaty -- but he declined: A career naval officer

Les Aspin, President Clinton's first Defense Secretaty: U.S. Army from 1966 to 1968 as a systems analyst in the Pentagon.

by tonythetiger

"Back from the front lines, and headed for Congress in 2006. Why are almost all the veterans coming home from Iraq running as Democrats?"

There's a very good answer to that question... think about it for a minute... it'll come to you :)

by x-marcap

Why did John Herry run as a Democrat in MA, originally?

The Democrats offer mucho dinero to even an old Warhorse like me, if I'd run as a Democrat. I have a relative who is very conservative running against an incumbent Republican, whom I dislike from personal knowledge for County Commissioner.

They thought I would consider running if they'd throw money at me for a local office. I declined very impolitely.

by av .

and I don't disagree with that. You're entitled to your own opinion. My opinion is that EPW can say what he (or she) wants, too. I may not agree with his viewpoint totally, but I think it makes for an interesting discussion, No?

I thought his article about military backgrounds was very comprehensive and informative. So, no, I don't think he's an idiot.

by maxwell edison

It's an attack, pure and simple. If you can't see that, you're blind.

There are 535 members of Congress. How many are listed?

There are ___ media pundits. How many are listed?

It's a VERY selective list.

In order to make any valid point, whatsoever, the list should include ALL members of congress and the administration, and ALL media pundits, not the selective ones that sway opinion. (Where, for example, is Al Franken?) It must ALSO be compared to the people who sent soldiers to Bosnia, for example.

AmericanVoter, you have proven to me that you are not willing to be open-minded. AmericanVoter, you have proven to me that you are a predetermined conclusion in search of justification. AmericanVoter, you have proven to me that you are not very savvy.

I'm not surprised at the nonsense you spew.

And I think there might be TWO idiots around here, epw and____

by av .

Its an EXTENSIVE list I think. How many pundits would you say there were? How many members of Congress? Not enough for you? How many do YOU think it takes to make a point?

I think the minute anyone says "neo-con Republican" you erupt like a volcano and attack anyone that doesn't share your view of our government. Did I see a thread that you posted called "I hate Democrats"? How can you talk about people attacking you when you have a post like that? You invite it and I'm sure you like the response.

I have to laugh when you say I am not open-minded. That statement is a real hoot coming from someone as rigid as a block of ice.

by x-marcap

Argentina,Nazi Germany (National Socialist party),Italy under Benito Mussolini. t he Peronistas, and most Fascist regimes are really leftist not Righties...

by oz_media

I don't know if you are ware of irt, but in England and Canada, chicken Hawk has a COMPLETELY different meaning, yet I feel it would be amusingly applicabe to some of the current US administrtion all the same.

A Chicken Hawk in other countries is actually and older man who seeks out young male prostitutes. At first I saw the title and though it was an outrageously inappropriate slam at gay men or something, maybe a bash on teh pride parade. LOL.

Then I realized you have a differenrt definition: "A person who now advocates war but who once took special measures to avoid military service" Like Bush with his hard time flying antiquated aircraft at an old military postal base.

by x-marcap

F105s went out of service after his time. For him to get combat duty he'd have had to transition to an F4 - or some other craft. Or come over to (the Dark side) the corps and fly F4s,A6s...

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