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This is (one reason) why I'm opposed to the Koyoto Treaty

By maxwell edison ·
China is exempt. Why?

India is exempt. Why?

And the selling of "credits" defeats the purpose. The aim is to either reduce emissions or not. It obviously is not, and it can not, and it will not -- regardless of how the USA replies. So what's the point?

How many of the people in the USA who cry about "American jobs" going to India and China, are the same people who cry about the USA's refusal to agree to the Koyoto Blackmail Scheme ..... I mean the Koyoto Treaty? Don't these people realize, since India and China are exempt from restrictive manufacturing processes, that manufactures will flock to those countries, and be accepted with open arms by those countries, thereby actually encouraging those jobs to leave American shores, and will actually ADD to the problem of air pollution? (Or "global warming", if you buy into that myth?)

Even the Democrats in Congress refused to buy into the scheme.

For the record. I'm in favor of reducing air pollution. In fact, I'm even in favor of working to eliminate air pollution entirely. But don't use the Koyoto scam or global warming scare to do it.

If these nations are exempt because they are "developing countries" (Yea, right!), and if developing new and clean alternative energy sources is so easy and is being prevented only because of will and desire, then what better way for a "developing nation" to become a significant nation than to do it with new alternative energy sources? If a nation, in theory, has to build an industrial society from the ground-up, why do it in a way that will only have to later be drastically changed or torn down? If it's going to be done the "first time", it might as well be done right. Right?

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That's reasonable

by Dr Dij In reply to This is (one reason) why ...

even many 'eco-nuts' don't think China and India should be exempted from air pollution rules via Kyoto treaty.

They have been filling their streets with cars that spew out vast quantities of pollution due to missing emission controls, which after years, here in US, we've minimized the cost to add them to cars.

It probably costs them more in dead people & increased health costs (asthma, pneumonia, etc) who breath in noxious fumes from 2 cycle engines and un-regulated diesel, gas cars.

Credits may be useful if not overdone. Many eco-nuts don't like them but they do spotlight emissions control and keep it in corporate mind.

Some things such as the mercury and chlorine emissions (paper plants, etc) should not have credits. If they were kept at levels or reduced then the involved plants would make the investments necessary to reduce emissions.

Anyway, china is paying: sunlight has been reduced 10% in many areas, reducing crop output, besides scarring the lungs of many with sulfur forming sulphuric acids, and other acids from pollution. As in Greece, air pollution eats away at historical structures such as great wall, tombs, etc.

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I wonder how many more times

by neilb@uk In reply to That's reasonable

I'll have to explain the difference between pollution and greenhouse gas emissions. I think that Maxwell does it on purpose just to get more knuckle-marks on my screen.

Anyway, (again) all the catalytic converters and exhaust emission rules in the US don't really reduce your CO2 production. Efficient engines reduce your gas consumption, obviously, but otherwise, it's made the problem worse because you/we don't have any visible pollution to tell us how much oil we're burning. All that has happened in the last twenty years of engine efficiency improvement has been negated by the fact that people buy cars with exactly the same size (or bigger) engine than before and just use up the extra horsepower by smoking their tyres.

Back to the plot. The reason that India and China are exempt is that, when measured on CO2 emissions per capita - which is what it's all about - they are way, way better than you.

The idea is to leave them some headroom to develop their economies and improve the living conditions of the billions of their citizens who currently live as they did a couple of ceturies ago. If we help and encourage them, we can help guide that economy to be non-polluting, sustainable and - dare I say it - friendly! God alone knows, wouldn't you like a friend or two?

Our per capita emissions are half of yours and I don't feel short-changed in my lifestyle.

Edited for a quick rant.

What the Chinese and Indians want to do is grow, transport, refrigerate and cook food safely so that no-one starves. What you want to do is warm your hot tubs and keep your Hummers going.

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What's that about hummers and hot tubs?

by maxwell edison In reply to I wonder how many more ti ...

....did I misread something? It's still early. I'll go get my coffee and read it again.

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Clarify Neil. Are you suggesting we let Hummers in our hot tubs or.........

by sleepin'dawg In reply to I wonder how many more ti ...

are you complaining about the hot tubs in our Hummers??? This does reqire some clarification on your part otherwise Maxwell might think you are a Sneaf!!!

Dawg ]:)

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and what is wrong with

by Jaqui In reply to Clarify Neil. Are you sug ...

musical _ _ _ _ jobs?

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by gadgetgirl In reply to and what is wrong with

giggling too much!

Pass the Kleenex!


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by Jaqui In reply to Jaq....can't......see.... ...

that is what I define a hummer as ]:)

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Max, Dawg. Look, it was a rant, OK?

by neilb@uk In reply to I wonder how many more ti ...

It doesn't have to make sense!!

Bloody ****!!! A man can't come onto this site and type a simple comment about the US raping the world for its resources and trampling rough-shod on the backs of the oppressed Third World billions to destroy the planet without having the damn comment dissected by the resident Libertarian Goon Squad!!!!

Just as well that I'm so even-tempered else I could easily lose it. :)

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Your one-sided rant

by maxwell edison In reply to I wonder how many more ti ...

First of all, of course I know the difference between air pollution and "CO2 emissions". And of course I do it "on purpose". I also challenge the notion that "CO2 emissions" are causing "global warming", but you know that as well. But as Oz points out, POLLUTION KILLS THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE, and that fact alone is enough to encourage compliance, or so he says, so therefore what?

However, I'm glad you are FINALLY admitting that those nations are using Koyoto as a ploy to simply catch up with the USA. And that's precisely why I'm against it. It's a wolf in sheep's clothing. It's intended to produce results that are different than their claim. It's dishonest. It's bogus. It's a lie. I hate it when people get on their moral soapbox and spout-off about how BAD someone is for one thing, but they give others a free pass to do that very thing. It's either wrong, or it's not. It's either bad, or it's not. It's either harmful, or it's not. And the same answer should apply EQUALLY for everyone across the board.

(Beginning of rant)

And on your one-sided rant about the USA being the biggest producer of your dreaded CO2 emissions, put that in proper context and show what is produced as a result. The USA is also the biggest producer of world-wide food donations. Perhaps we should reduce the number of diesel burning farm vehicles that produces that food; and perhaps we should reduce the number of diesel burning locomotives that transport that food to the docks, and perhaps we should just quit producing that food. The United States is also the biggest producer in medical advancements, which results in world-wide benefits. The United States is also the biggest producer in aerospace technology, which results in world-wide benefits. The United States is also the biggest producer of .......... Put it ALL in context, Neil, or just STFU about it.

(End of rant)

See, I can do it too.

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by neilb@uk In reply to Your one-sided rant

I won't be posting much longer today as it's the Champions League final with Arsenal vs Barcelona - proper football - and I have a date with several beers, a curry and a large plasma screen with a gang of Arsenal supporters.

Of course pollution should be reduced. But it's not so simple. You have to weigh it up against the extended lifespan of those elsewhere in developing countries who benefit from those factories. A simple example; if a refrigerator factory, for example, pollutes and shortens the life of a thousand but saves many more by preserving them from food poisoning is it a good or a bad thing?

However, as for food exports, I won't take the easy track and mention McDonalds, BK and others as they are franchises and merely the idea has been exported and the money returned to the US. I'll have to get some real figures and get back to you.

More later...

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