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Thursday unfunny yuk

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This is NOT an attempt to reopen the EL thread.

It is however a tragic comment on the mentality of ****** .... I can't complete this sentence for fear of being accused of America bashing.

WASHINGTON (UPI) -- A Gallup Poll released Wednesday suggests about 53 percent of Americans reject the theory of evolution as the explanation for the origin of humans.

Instead, they believe God created humans at one time "as is," the survey showed.

About 31 percent of respondents said they believe humans evolved, but God guided the process. Only 1.2 percent said they believe the scientific theory of evolution and "God had no part."

Researchers said people with lower levels of education, those who attend church regularly, those who are 65 or older and those who identify with the Republican Party are more likely to believe in the biblical story of the origin of humans.

The poll was conducted in September but no margin of error figures or other information was available.

79 replies

by absolutely

Gallup says 53 percent of Americans, but the truth is 53 percent of respondents. We cannot know what percentage of atheists responded "I have better things to do than explain myself to you!"

by maxwell edison

From a similar Gallop Poll

By a majority of 51 percent, Evolutionists believe that human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided this process.

But only 34 percent of Evolutionists believe that human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God had no part in the process.

And 10 percent of Evolutionists believe that God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so.

According to a study published by the University of Nebraska at Lincoln, the difference suggests that there is either a very broad interpretation of the term "creationism" -- one that does not support the biblical account of the creation of the human race -- or that there is misunderstanding about what the label "creationism" means, among at least some of the creation-leaning public.

This was a March 2001 poll, by the way.

Source:

http://www.unl.edu/rhames/courses/current/creation/evol-poll.htm

I can't find the exact details of the March 2005 poll, and I'm not going to pay $95 to find out.

http://poll.gallup.com/content/default.aspx?ci=21811&pg=1

But I'm working on it.

by Member 25348569

and see if we feel the same. Some few thousand random Brits were asked what best described their view of the origin and development of life:

22% chose creationism
17% opted for intelligent design
48% selected evolution theory
13% did not know.

Furthermore, more than 40% of those questioned believe that creationism or intelligent design should be taught in school science lessons.

I'm surprised and a little disturbed. Creationism I can understand as it's actually part of the Islamic belief system as well as Christian and Jewish - but ID? Where do we get that from? It's purely an invention of American fundamentalist lawyers and meaningless.

by maxwell edison

I just cut and pasted from the source I provided.

I have this opinion about opinion polls:

Give me a desired conclusion, and I'll come up with some poll questions to prove it.

by maxwell edison

.....they're probably not.

There's more to this poll than meets the story or the headlines. I'm certain of it.

by jardinier

Here's a statistic for you to find, Max.

Find any country in the world in which the proportion of evangelical Christians in relation to the total population is GREATER than in the USA.

Tiny islands which are part of a country do not qualify (just in case there are any).

by maxwell edison

What's the difference between an evangelical Christian and your every day, normal, ordinary, run-of-the-mill Christian? And how does one tell them apart for "counting" purposes?

by maxwell edison

Why do you want me to find that statistic? And what does it have to do with either your original message or my replies?

by maxwell edison

But I don't really care. Why don't you find the answer yourself? And then make whatever point you want to make. If I'm interested, I might even reply.

But I will help you:

http://www.missionfrontiers.org/newslinks/statewe.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism

(Cut and pasted excerpt)

"Evangelical Christians were a diverse group; some were at the forefront of movements such as abolition of slavery, prison reform, orphanage establishment, hospital building, and founding educational institutions."

http://www.worldevangelicalalliance.com/textonly/3home.htm

"7% of the population are evangelicals."

(Is that world or U.S.? Is that the right answer?)

"6% of registered Democrats and 5% of registered Independents are evangelical Christians compared to 14% of registered Republicans. (2004)"

Jimmy Carter is probably counted as one of the Democrats. Is Bill Clinton counted as well? How about Jessie Jackson?

http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=Topic&TopicID=17

But you figure it out. Personally speaking, I don't have a dog in this hunt. (Regardless of whatever hunt it may be.) What are you hunting?

By the way, how many "evangelical Christians" have given up on taking self-responsibility in favor of living on welfare? Figure that one out while you're at it, will you? Let us know what you find.

by maxwell edison

But I don't really care. Why don't you find the answer yourself? And then make whatever point you want to make. If I'm interested, I might even reply.

But I will help you:

http://www.missionfrontiers.org/newslinks/statewe.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism

(Cut and pasted excerpt)

"Evangelical Christians were a diverse group; some were at the forefront of movements such as abolition of slavery, prison reform, orphanage establishment, hospital building, and founding educational institutions."

http://www.worldevangelicalalliance.com/textonly/3home.htm

"7% of the population are evangelicals."

(Is that world or U.S.? Is that the right answer?)

"6% of registered Democrats and 5% of registered Independents are evangelical Christians compared to 14% of registered Republicans. (2004)"

Jimmy Carter is probably counted as one of the Democrats. Is Bill Clinton counted as well? How about Jessie Jackson?

http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=Topic&TopicID=17

But you figure it out. Personally speaking, I don't have a dog in this hunt. (Regardless of whatever hunt it may be.) What are you hunting?

By the way, how many "evangelical Christians" have given up on taking self-responsibility in favor of living on welfare? Figure that one out while you're at it, will you? Let us know what you find.

by maxwell edison

I'll provide some of the statistics, you provide the rest.

How many Muslims have flown airplanes into buildings, killing thousands, in the name of their religion?

Answer:

How many evangelical Christians have flown airplanes into buildings, killing thousands, in the name of their religion?

Answer: Zero

How many Muslims have blown themselves up on a bus load of people, killing all those around them, in the name of their religion?

Answer:

How many evangelical Christians have blown themselves up on a bus load of people, killing all those around them, in the name of their religion?

Answer: Zero

How many Muslims have driven bomb-laden vehicles into foreign embassies, blown themselves up, killing many of those around them, in the name of their religion?

Answer:

How many evangelical Christians have driven bomb-laden vehicles into foreign embassies, blown themselves up, killing many of those around them, in the name of their religion?

Answer: Zero

How many Muslims have blown up airplanes at 35,000 feet, killing all those on-board, in the name of their religion?

Answer:

How many evangelical Christians have blown up airplanes at 35,000 feet, killing all those on-board, in the name of their religion?

Answer: Zero

How many Muslims have driven bomb-laden small boats along-side a Navy vessel, regardless of the vessel's nation of origin, blown themselves up, killing many of the sailors aboard that ship, in the name of their religion?

Answer:

How many evangelical Christians have driven bomb-laden small boats along-side a Navy vessel, regardless of the vessel's nation of origin, blown themselves up, killing many of the sailors aboard that ship, in the name of their religion?

Answer: Zero

How many Muslim heads-of-state have threatened to destroy entire nations, in the name of their religion?

Answer:

How many evangelical Christian heads-of-state have threatened to destroy entire nations, in the name of their religion?

Answer: Zero

How many Muslims, world-wide, have killed, destroyed property, and rioted in the streets, in the name of their religion, because of what someone wrote about them?

Answer:

How many evangelical Christians, world-wide, have killed, destroyed property, and rioted in the streets, in the name of their religion, because of what someone wrote about them?

Answer: Zero

How many Muslims have beheaded someone, in the name of their religion?

Answer:

How many evangelical Christians have beheaded someone, in the name of their religion?

Answer: Zero

How many Muslims have blown-up night clubs in Bali?

Answer:

How many evangelical Christians have blown-up night clubs in Bali?

Answer: Zero

Start painting your answers with as broad a brush as you'd like.

by sleepin'dawg

on your side of the pond. Some of them have had enhancements added over hear and a few have sprung forth from earlier versions. It's mostly all stuff and nonsense anyway; nothing to lose sleep over, unless that is, some of these yahoos acquire political power and/or influence.

The WCTU achieved it in the early twenties and thirties and there was Prohibition, now the religious right is achieving prominence. They too, will pass.

[b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

by maecuff

It really makes no difference, does it? I have no idea where we came from, although evolution makes the most sense to me. Creationism makes about as much sense as the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus, but who knows?

by montgomery gator

This does not sound like the open-minded Julian that we know.

I could say that it is sad that the other way to look at it is that it is high that 47% of the respondents in the poll don't believe that God created humankind at once "as is" :-)

What people believe as far as creationism vs evolution does not matter much when it comes to their day to day activities and interactions. I can see the merit of both views, and combine mine into a paradigm that says that all creation was created by God, but he did it over a period of billions of years.

But I have no problem with people who take the literalist view of Genesis. At least they acknowledge God as the Creator of all things. And I believe there was a specific moment when God gave self-awareness, free will, and a soul to the creatures that became the first humans when He did that. As far as the time frame is involved, and the "6 days of Creation", scripture does state that 1000 years is but a day to the Lord. Some translators take the "day" of Genesis and say the word can mean a period of time, not necessarily a literal 24 hour day.

I guess you can put me in the 31% who believe that God guided the process. But I do have agreement with the 53% that there was a specific time when "humans" actually became truly human, transformed by God to give our ancestors true human intelligence.

by sleepin'dawg

why are there still monkeys??" You are dealing with two distinct things here; belief and knowledge. One is a close ended concept the other open ended because we are still in the learning process and will be for many eons to come.

[b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

by maecuff

LOVES this song..he knows all the words and sings it frequently. I told him to keep it to our home as some of the knuckle dragging rednecks in my town might beat him to death with their bibles if they hear him singing it..

They tell us that
We lost our tails
Evolving up
From little snails
I say it?s all
Just wind in sails
Are we not men?
We are devo!
We?re pinheads now
We are not whole
We?re pinheads all
Jocko homo
Are we not men?
D-e-v-o
Monkey men all
In business suit
Teachers and critics
All dance the poot
Are we not men?
We are devo!
Are we not men?
D-e-v-o
God made man
But he used the monkey to do it
Apes in the plan
We?re all here to prove it
I can walk like an ape
Talk like an ape
I can do what a monkey can do
God made man
But a monkey supplied the glue
We must repeat
O.k. let?s go!

by jdclyde

if the monkeys came from amibas, why are there still amibas? How is it some date back as old as they do?

Till then, the evolutionist are still offically "Monkey boy" in my book! :D

by jardinier

I used to be open minded, but my brains kept falling out! ]:)

While I have my opinions, in such a matter as this my personal opinions don't count for much because I WASN'T THERE TO SEE WHAT HAPPENED.

However if you would care to visit my blog you will find a poem which expresses my current, totally speculative view of how the universe and mankind came into being.

My view is drawn from Hindu philosophy and Theosophy.

by jardinier

Perhaps you are not aware that evangelical Christians were DIRECTLY responsible for the re-election of George Bush in 2004.

His campaign manager quite deliberately targeted this group on the correct assumption that they would vote for Bush because of the issues of abortion and gay marriages.

by sleepin'dawg

When I'm at home the US border is a 15 - 20 minute drive depending on traffic and I spend about 50% of my work time there. You hear them long before you see them and within seconds you are soon wishing you could do neither.

[b]Dawg[/b]

by jardinier

or looking to the future, all the difference between heaven and hell.

After participating in theological discussions at two American Christian websites for the past few months, I know this TOTALLY NEW breed of "Christian" very well.

The MAJORITY believe that ALL Christians who belong to established denominations -- which means more than 95 per cent of Christians in the world -- will not be saved and will suffer everlasting hellfire.

These are DANGEROUS PEOPLE. They are fanatic to the extreme. They insist that the terrorists represent the true teaching of Islam (which is a total lie) and they spread and encourage hatred towards ALL MUSLIMS which is not exactly helpful in the present world situation.

These people are a product of America, which is why I asked for that statistic.

At the 2004 election, 20 - 25 per cent of those who voted were evangelical Christians.

The fact is that these people were resonsible for the re-election of George Bush. After the election Bush's campaign director stated in a televised interview that these people were deliberately targeted on the correct assumption that they would vote for Bush on the issues of abortion and gay marriage.

As you like George Bush, then you might consider this a good thing. But if you ever tried to have a conversation with one of these people, you would be scarred sh*tless at their fanaticism and their PRIDE in not thinking (as independent thinking was the first sin of Adam and Eve). Yes, they are proud of their stupid bigotry.

Like I said, this is an American thing because their numbers are in a much higher proportion to traditional Christians than in any other country.

As your president identifies with these wackos, I should think that it would be in your interest to learn as much about them as you can.

An easy way is to join the free website:
meetchristians.com

and read a few of the discussions in any of the following categories:

Biblical & Theological Issues;
Political;
General Discussion.

by maxwell edison

If you establish your stereotype of all evangelical Christians, and consider it a fair and accurate one, all based on the few who've posted messages on an Internet discussion site that you visit, then you're a fool. And no, I don't think you're a fool, but rather misguided and prone to knee-jerk reactions.

I'm sure there are such radicals in every walk of life; but it doesn't mean they're representative of the main-stream, and evangelical Christians are no different. Moreover, I'm sure there are people in cyber-space who only pose as someone or something, only to further discredit them. It's an Internet chat board, Julian. Get real!

I've resisted making the same assumptions about all Canadians based on what I've read from Oz_Media. And I've resisted making the same assumptions about all Australians based on what I've read from you.

And see my other messages that contains links to various sites about evangelical Christians. You'll see that they're neither a "new breed" nor distinctly American. And it's funny, I live in America and I've never see the kind of evangelical Christian that you describe. How can that be? I even know quite a few people who call themselves evangelical Christians, and they're not the extremist people you make them out to be.

Let's see, if 20 percent of voters in 2004 were evangelical Christians, 80 percent were not. If 120 million people voted, then that means 24 million were evangelical Christians, while 96 million were not. And 20 percent of all evangelical Christians, or almost 5 million of them, actually voted for John Kerry!

Here, read from this particular evangelical Christian, and perhaps he can provide you with a more accurate taste of who they are.

http://www.availablelightonline.com/blog/archives/2004/11/30/franklin-grahams-editorial

And his father:

http://www.billygraham.org/

And another one:

"Dr. George Braswell lived in Iran for seven years and was the only Christian among the faculty of the Muslim seminary where he taught comparative religion. Dr. George Braswell's latest book on Islam is called "What You Need to Know About Islam & Muslims." According to him, lifestyle evangelism and friendship are keys to witnessing to Muslims."

http://www.billygraham.org/mediaPlayer/default.asp?f=layout

I know, you'll find plenty of sources that claim Franklin Graham called Islam evil, but read past the rhetoric and understand what he really said. I'm not an evangelical Christian, but I, too, see evil people crash airplanes into buildings in the name of Islam; and I don't see the so-called non-violent Islamic people standing up in concert decrying what they do. In fact, I see the opposite. I also don't see Christians, of the evangelical variety or otherwise, doing the same sort of thing.

How many Muslims are in the world? Let's say 2 billion. How many were involved in crashing airplanes into American buildings? Let's say 20. How many of the remaining 1,999,999,980 condoned and cheered what they did in the name of their religion? My guess is that it's a hell of a lot more, in both real numbers and percentages, than every evangelical Christian in the world. In fact, I'd bet the number is TEN TIMES greater.

If you want to paint a religion with a broad brush, Julian, choose the right one, will you?

You try to pass yourself off as someone with such a deep level of understanding, especially in all matters religious. I'm beginning to doubt that you are understanding, based on your knee-jerk reaction to this brand of religious people. Do you know what the term knee-jerk is? Or am I just being an ignorant American for thinking you don't? (All Americans are ignorant, you know.) Regardless, it really does describe you in so many ways. Therefore, all Australian's opinions are nothing but knee-jerk reactions to what they read on an Internet chat site, right?

by jardinier

And believe whatever you like. (By the way there are 1.3 billion Muslims in the world).

I have not based my opinions on the messages at one website. I have been in contact with MANY of these Christians through several Christian websites over a number of years.

I make it my business to know what's happening in the world in regard to religion.

Quite likely you are huffy because I have suggested it is an American thing.

Too bad, but that is a fact. Perhaps you are huffy because I said your president identifies with these loonies. Too bad, but that also is a fact.

And who invaded a Muslim country based on KNOWN false intelligence, and for reasons which were not publicly acknowledged but are well known to most people who don't worship Bush as the Messiah?

Why, it was your loony, right wing, lying, evangelical Christian president no less.

And when did the leader of any Muslim country invade America or any other western country? The answer of course is never. If you haven't yet learnt that the terrorists DO NOT represent the Islamic religion, then you had better read your Koran.

http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran

Search for "virgins" and see what you come up with.

Why don't the peaceful majority of Muslims speak out against the terrorists? That I cannot answer, except to suggest that they would themselves become targets.

Almost every day of my life I speak to a Muslim -- mainly from Pakistan, India and Bangladesh. I always ask the same questions and get the same answers. In the countries which they come from (and thus represent) Islam is practised as a peaceful religion. The terrorists most definitely DO NOT derive their ideas from the Koran.

Max, I am not the least bit concerned about your opinion of my opinions.

If ever I saw a knee-jerk reaction, it was your reaction to my comments in this discussion.

By all means don't judge all Australians by my statements. There are a number of other Australian peers at this website. You might try asking Alan's or Colin's opinions. I doubt that they will be much different to my own.

I certainly don't judge all Americans by your statements. You are an extremist. You live in a black and white world. From your viewpoint (and you have stated as much in an earlier discussion) a person should be 100 per cent for something, or 100 per cent against it.

Your blind bigotry (check the word in a dictionary) passes right over my head. Your opinions are most certainly NOT representative of all Americans, or of all Americans who participate in these discussions.

I am quite happy to have my name linked with Oz. He says what he believes, and hang the cost. From private emails I know him to be a totally different person to the persona he chooses to portray at this website.

by x-marcap

That's what he gets for reading other people's mail.

Julian, In Most Church type organizations there is the position of Elder, sometimes translated Bishop or Presbyter.

These men function as the older, wiser heads that get invested with the actual power to lead large groups of Christians. The noisy children make noise, but they don't steer the ship...

Occasionally, a pastor goes off the reservation, but, most often, they get disciplined quietly and the problem goes away...

In the mainline churches we have the solution to the radical. We put their energy to work and make them create change as a positive force. Slowly, they grow mainstream. The only thing you need to worry about is being too obnoxious in your attacks on "Mainstream Christians and evangelicals". Eventually people like you will make others think it is OK to attack Christians.

This was prophesized to happen about 2000 years ago that it would happen sometime. When it does happen, all the gloves come off, and it is Armageddon. And, if you read, the evangelicals are the ones who win because of unbelievably impressive firepower against the hordes of the Anti-Christ and Gog and Magog. Who is the Anti-Christ? Maybe you if you live in the East. I don?t know if you are the Anti-Christ, but you are an anti-Christ.

Know this. On the plains of Armageddon, the enemy's blood runs bridle deep (6-8 feet deep) and the 500 Million Man army (Could this be CHINA?) was coming against Israel. Now the question is why you don't believe in anything Christian. If Christians are wrong, then it is no big deal. If they are right, you are going to hell and many more people who don't believe what the evangelicals believe will be joining you.

That does include the people who aren't either hot or cold. That means moderate Christians are setting themselves up to burn in hell, and worse yet they should know it, but they are not interested enough to pay the slightest attention to the scriptures they should base their lives on...

What you should worry about is not the Christian because he is waiting for a King that was killed and buried. What you should worry about is the idiots who are willing to kill for Allah. This may sound unchristian, but as a governmental policy we need to exterminate terrorism and all organizations that support terror against our citizens. This ideology for a Christian comes under rendering unto Caesar that which is Caesar?s. Caesar makes war? If that includes religious organizations that are condoning slaughter of innocents, so be it. This includes abortion for many people the baby/fetus is helpless. That is why abortion is such an anathema to many people.

by jardinier

How many American service personnel -- and service personnel from other countries, and innocent Iraqui citizens -- have been killed or maimed in an alleged war (pre-emptive attack) based on lies fed to the public as to the reasons or justifications for this "war?"

Yes, Tony Blair was in on it too, and for the same reasons.

It wasn't even a legitimate pre-emptive attack because there was no evidence, nor has any been found, that the 9/11 terrorists were in any way associated with or condoned by Saddam Hussein.

Dream on Max. The war was about OIL -- you know -- BLACK GOLD, and also to establish a permanent military presence in the centre of the Middle Eastern oil fields.

by maxwell edison

Instead of answering a question with a question (only a diversion tactic), how about just answering my questions?

Let me answer that for you. You won't answer them because the answers will only serve to undermine your silly assertions. Your silly assertion being that evangelical Christians are more dangerous than radical Muslims, at least hat's how you're coming across.

by jardinier

I have not asserted or implied that evangelical Christians per se are more dangerous than radical Muslims.

What I have suggested is that evangelical Christians, because they are in much greater numbers than radical Muslims, add fuel to the fire of religious intolerance and hence are likely to hasten any jihad which may occur on a global scale.

And to support my view here is part of an email from a young Ethiopian orphan whom I am supporting, and who is a VERY DEVOUT Christian.

I knew most Americans preach what they don?t practise because in past there are few of them visited here and preach us but they only preach Bible and don?t care whether you are starving or dying and I notice that not all Christians will make Heaven and not all Muslims and other religions are bad. Some are good and I met good Muslims here and we all are children of God.

by Member 25348569

Why? How?

The only likely cause of [b]global[/b] war in the near or middle future is if the Americans, that's you, start a war with China over resources because you wont do anything about your consumption. Nothing at all to do with any form of intolerance.

Did you have some other scenario in mind? I'd be interested to hear it.

Armageddon, The Tribulation, The Rapture and the rest of the twaddle we can ignore as wishful thinking by particularly introverted Protestant sects. Strange, I agree with the Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury here.

:D

Why pick on poor old Jules. There's a lot nastier people around - trust me. ]:)

by jardinier

that it takes an atheist with logic, common sense and an open mind to actually see through all this fundamentalist, evangelical crap and support my viewpoint. :^0

As for the Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury, well according to the American evangelicals, they along with all their flock are destined for hell.

Boy, it sure is going to be crowded down there.

by x-marcap

Actually, I wouldn't want to be lumped with them generally. The one thing I would agree with is the Pope's underlying argument on abortion.

The point is everybody has an opinion. I even have agreed with you, Neil, on occasion. The point is if the US had it's entire population in Texas, it could be France like in consumption. We have a big country, and it takes fuel to get get products to the interior.

Who wastes more fuel than the Conservationist who takes a G5 all over the world to talk about conservation and alternative fuels. Can you say Kennedy, how about Gore.

I have conserved and have used alternative reuseable fuels for years. I love a fire in the fireplace. Don't think that all Americans are like the Kennedy clan, or OZ's diatribe targets. I do think that we should eliminate all terrorists with a scortched earth policy. Attack the Marines, the Air Force Base, etc. Don't attack civilians, anywhere...

by mjwx

Australia is geographically roughly the same size as the US but about 8-10% the population. Our population however, is far more isolated (from one another). The distance between Perth and the next nearest capital city is 1800 KM (Kanadian Miles) or about 1100 Miles (sorry if my conversion is a bit off its 1 km:1.6 M I think). My point is that per person the US consumes more than a country of equal geographic size.

I think Americans waste a lot and this attitude needs to change. The main factor is economics. Using petrol as an example, OZ imports a vast majority of its fuel (LPG is the only fuel we produce locally in sufficient quantities) so our petrol prices are very high (about AU$1.20 a litre which at today?s exch rate (1AU:0.76US) is about $1.05 US). High petrol prices influences our buying habits, instead of buying a V8 or a 4 wheel drive (you call them SUV?s) we would get a small car or sedan which is more fuel economical.

This is not an attack on America just a comparison with Australia.

P.S. A scorched earth policy is indiscriminate, it?s designed to destroy everything. So when you target an enemy you will hit everything around it. There is no surgical strikes with a scorched earth policy so if you adopt one be prepared for its consequences.

Also killing civilians is a staple of war, no matter how you fight it. It is an evil that even the most careful planning and execution cant avoid.

by jardinier

The intolerance of the fundamentalist Christians.

The majority of Christians around the world, who belong to the major established denominations, do not buy this fanatical extremist fantasy.

If Armageddon or global war is the scenario, it is these evangelical Christians who foster and encourage hatred towards ALL Muslims who will help to make it happen.

by maxwell edison

If Armageddon or global war is the scenario, it is these fanatical Muslims who foster and encourage hatred towards all Christains, evangelical or otherwise, and Jews, and..... who will help to make it happen.

by jardinier

You have it all wrong. The Muslim extremists are NOT targetting Christians, but Western society in general.

So who do they hate? Zionist Jews, and westerners who grow fat on Middle Eastern oil, while they themselves -- because of corrupt (usually monarchal) governments -- remain in poverty.

You would surely know that even though Americans take their Christianity much more seriously than other Western societies, your society has become very materialistic and morally bankrupt.

I will say it again. The terrorists hate Zionist Jews and wealthy, decadent Westerners.

Throughout this period since 9/11, I have NEVER heard any terrorist claim that Christians are their target. In this context you can read "infidels" as Westerners, but not specifically Christians.

by x-marcap

There is no fool like an old fool.

There is a huge difference between Evangelicals and the people who just are jealous of the people they percieve have a bit more than they do.

Why do they target American consumerism as an evil. How much oil does Isreal produce?

Oh, Julian did realize that the monarchies are corrupt in the Mid-East. That is one of the problem that The US is now addressing, but he is complaining about the means.

Why do Julian, and his ilk claim Westerner and Jews are getting fat on the Oil? The Mulims merely bred there, and starved. The real success Israel has had is irrigation. They built something.

That is the problem: Since the late 1940's, Isreal did something and the desert has bloomed. In 1500 years the Muslims have graduated from a nomadic life style to what? The real problem is jealousy. International jealousy and lack of home grown skills. If western interests hadn't gotten the oil from beneath the sands, the oil would have been undisturbed for centuries as the Mid-East has progressed away from Western influence.

IMHO socialism and liberalism are the greatest dangers to peace.

by jardinier

I am anti-crap. Your post is filled with the greatest amount of codswallop I have seen gathered together in one place.

There is no bishop or elder for these people who describe themselves as "Bible Based." They are strongly against denominations and prefer to worship in small home groups. Those who attend a church of an established denomination, carefully screen the teaching that is given.

One of the greatest abominations -- which is a major worry to the more intelligent of these people -- are the American mega televangelists who dish out "Prosperity" teaching. "Follow Jesus and you will accrue material wealth." How Christian is that? These people, such as Benny Hinn, are an authority unto themselves and do not account for where the huge amount of money collected is spent.

"Render unto Caesar?" Give me a break. That only refers to paying taxes.

And what precisely do you mean by: "That's what he gets for reading other people's mail."

I have been an active participant in these discussions for several months and guess what -- the more scholarly members have considerable respect for my views.

A private message from one of the most scholarly and also spirit-filled members:

Hi Julian...
As I pass through this life I come across a person a little unique in some ways and you are one of those people.
And you are most correct, these people here if this is what they think being saved is well, God help them. Very few I can call a brother.
Thank you Julian, and you are one I call my brother and my friend.
Be happy Julian.
Suzy

by oz_media

The same poster has been makign absurd assertions in other threads too, completely out of the blue and off the cuff.

Perhaps that poster doesn't realize you actually operate Christian websites. LOL :)

And yet you got one heck of a lesson on the church anyway. Oh man, I gotta get some food, this is killing the ribs!

by mjwx

First off, I apologise to other right wing nutbars for associating you with TJ.

Julian, an Anti-Christ is anyone who deviates from Christian orthodoxy. How much is a deviation is a matter of perspective. To those with an extremely strict religious view this deviation is extremely small. To TJ if you?re an Anti-Christ than I must be the devil incarnate for not believing. You will have to forgive me, I am intolerant of the intolerant but that?s one of my flaws being human and all.

In a previous post in another thread I made my views on religion quiet clear but here it is again (a bit out of context).

I hope this has cleared something up JD, and just to clear up my stance on religion. God and I have a ?Disagreement?. I used to hate god when I was young(er) but in the intervening years my rhetoric has softened. However I believe that organised religion is wrong, this does not mean the church should be destroyed but it should not try to convert people (I mean any church not just Christianity). Priests and places of worship should be available for all to use IF THEY WISH TO. Religion should not be forced on anyone and I know a few parents that would beat the bible into their children and think nothing of it. What you believe in is a personal choice and if you can?t decide that by yourself than it?s possible that you believe in nothing. I don?t hate Christians or anyone who believes in god I simply don?t wish to be preached to. I have no problems with my current theological state.

TJ, ?Occasionally, a pastor goes off the reservation, but, most often, they get disciplined quietly and the problem goes away...?

This system doesn?t work. Religion in this case only offers a cheap and quick way out of guilt. I would raise child abuse cases to support this. And one more thing if you wish to tell me that I?m going to hell then I?m going tell you to GO TO HELL. If you don?t preach to me I won?t tell you how wrong you are.

I mean in no way to imply that you are an Anti-Christ Julian or to offend you, just to point out that you could be seen as one by extremists.

by mjwx

How many Christians kill using smart bombs?

Answer:

How many Muslims kill using smart bombs?

Answer: zero ? the don?t have any.

Max, Christianity always preferred crucifixion and burning at the stake for god (or the soul which belonged to ?lord god? it's the same diff either way) as opposed to beheading. Plus Christians were burning and crucifying long before Muslims were beheading. It?s all a question of methods, motives remain the same.

by x-marcap

We are now in the 1500s from the start of their religion. They are at the same point, the jews and the Christians were 1500 years from Abraham and 1500 years from Christ.

They are trying to hold their identity, and expand their influence. The small problem is now the Muslims might be able to get the BOMB...

by rob mekel

Islam was started with Mohammed around 600 and spread around as in 750 it had progressed to Portugal and Spain in the west (via Africa) and in the east to India. By 1683 Islam stood before the city gates of Vienna.
So where does your 1500 start come from???

Rob

by maxwell edison

You left out the "in the name of their religion" part of my question. (Or however I phrased it.)

And when you say, "Christianity always preferred crucifixion and burning at the stake for god...", I'm not talking about ancient history, but rather today. But you knew that as well. I prefer to not judge people of today based on the actions of others hundreds of years ago.

You struck out swinging on that answer. (A little baseball lingo, there.)

by mjwx

A bit of cricket lingo

Max, Your point was to say that (evangelical) Christians were better than Muslims. I proved you wrong by demonstrating that the motive was the same, only the method was different. You cant talk about religion today with out considering its history. "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it" the middle east is currently seeing the results of that kind of ignorance and I am begining to see the same kind of ignorance in you.

TJ, Religion seems to swing between moderates and extremes. Back when Europe and America were burning witches and running inquisitions Islam was a tolerant place (relatively speaking after 6 odd crusades). Before the crusades Islam (which controlled Jerusalem) not only tolerated the Jewish and Christian populations but encouraged visitors (for the trade income) as well as being the centre of leaning in the dark and middle ages (the blast furnace which most modern steel plants are based on was invented in the middle east).

Now the tables have turned and Christianity is the moderate and Islam is the extreme. But both still seem to be flying in the face of the truth that the word has grown beyond religious leadership and can govern without the interference of god.

by jardinier

I doubt it. Even the most rabid fundamentalists at the two Christian websites to which I post have never accused me of that.

However some members do seem to gain some kind of satisfaction in assuring me that with the beliefs I state, I have Buckley's chance of being saved.

As my idea of a personal hell would be to spend all eternity with self-righteous, fundamentalist Christian nutters, then "salvation" is not a goal I aspire after.

by x-marcap

Julian, et al.

I am your greatest fear: a fellow wisea$$ who disagrees with you.

You all rise to the bait. You don't realize that your inflamatory remarks are taken seriously. I know the rhetoric, I understand the environments. Of here and the Christian Churches. Even small congregations worry me too, because they don't have the best possible leadership situation. Take the Fred Fulks church that is his family and 6 other people who protest soldiers funerals. He is so off the wall, a conservative Christian would call him a "nutter".

I was a Captain in the Marines. I really think OZ must be writing tongue in cheek, as is Neil. I think of them as PITAs...

Sometimes I think that the intellectual in the people who post defamatory comments about people's faith, can't stand to be tweaked themselves. Well, you have been tweaked, and you sucked down the bait, Hook,Line, and Sinker.

Any faith You would have is your business, not mine. Just don't forget about the people who can't help but believe Christians are stupid. I have a great eastern philosophy I couldn't believe in: reincarnation. How is your IQ going to fit in a Dung Beetle,

Oh, dang, I answered my own question,again.

Until you know me well enough that the old Captain is the fellow who was sent to do real fighting after passing a Lt. Colonel a rubber Scalpal. I laughed while a pompous Boston General Thoracic Surgeon was trying to cut open a fellow for a lobectomy. Kodak moments and me without a brownie.

First of all, you are negative about evangelicals and the people who did realize that Al Gore was so morally bankrupt that a serial rapist and philanderer as a boss didn't bother him. (Bush needed to win.) The next option to Bush was Kerry. I know him and Al Gore. Kerry cuts himself on twisted metal, not in combat, and files paperwork for a purple heart. That should makes every person who lost parts of themselves in combat pissed that he got away with it. John Forbes Kerry.

Gore was protected by 3rd Squad, 5th Marines when he was in Vietnam...

For those of you who complain about Bush and our policies, there are many of us hold our nose and vote.

When I see your zings at the evangelicals you describe the people who meet in homes. As far as that goes I know of no evangelicals that meet in homes. The only ones I have met or seen, I have seen on TV.

by jardinier

I keep two browsers open at all times -- Firefox and Netscape.

You should only ever hit the "Submit" button once. If there seems to be an inordinate delay in receiving acknowledgment that your post has been added to the discussion, open the same discussion on the alternate browser.

Most times I find that the post has already been added to the discussion.

by jardinier

[b]"Born-again"[/b] is the broadest category. It includes the [b]39 percent of the American population[/b] who claim they have had a personal experience of Christ. Their political ideas span the spectrum, and Jimmy Carter is not the only born-again political liberal.

[b]"Evangelical"[/b] describes a theological position, one recognizing not only the need for such a personal experience with God but also the unique religious authority of Scripture and an obligation to share one's faith with others. Billy Graham is the paradigmatic evangelical.

[b]"Fundamentalists,"[/b] though they share many of the evangelicals' beliefs, also fiercely insist on the "verbal inerrancy" of the Bible, and this has led them into noisy conflicts over creation and evolution. William Jennings Bryan, who defended a literal reading of Genesis at the famous Scopes "monkey trial" in 1925, was a classic fundamentalist.

[b]"Pentecostals,"[/b] by far the fastest-growing wing of Christianity today, share most evangelical beliefs, but for them all theology is secondary. What is most important is an immediate encounter with the Holy Spirit in a style of worship that is exuberant and even ecstatic. Aimee Semple McPherson was the first Pentecostal preacher to achieve celebrity status in America.

[b]"Charismatics"[/b] (the word's root means "gift of grace") are people who practice a Pentecostal form of worship but remain in their own Catholic or Protestant churches.

[Source: http://adherents.com ]

by rob mekel

To see how those 2 will evolve. Will there be a whole continent filled with Santa's or Easter Bunny's (I like the bunny's :) part special, tipical male as I am :0 ).
As they are created no such luck :(

Rob

by rob mekel

It started somewhere in the 17/18 century.

And this is what history tells us, don't mix religion and government. They are doomed to kill one another. It happened to the Egyptians, the Roman Empire, Sultany of Turkey, and Japanese Empire.
This due there own or outrun technically and overthrown by a force.

Rob

by jardinier

Alas it is not widely known that Western civilization is indebted to Muslims for the very foundations of our culture.

The Dark Ages of Christianity in Europe, when knowledge and scientific enquiry were suppressed, were paralleled with the [b]Golden Age of Islam.[/b]

Muslim scholars traversed the known world gathering knowledge of all kinds, especially scientific and philosophic.

Our numerical system: 1 - 9 and zero -- was invented by Hindus and brought to the West by Muslims.

[i]"The Indian culture developed the decimal system. The Mohenjo Daro culture of the Indus River valley was using a form of decimal numbering some 5000 years ago. Succeeding cultural changes in this area developed the decimal system into a rigorous numbering system, including the use of zero by the Hindu mathematician some 1500 years ago. The digits we use for the decimal system are the Arabic-Indian digits of 0 through 9. Each number occupies a place value. When 1 is reached, the value goes to 0 and 1 is added to the next place value."[/i]

They preserved the teachings of the great Greek scientists and philosophers, as well as making many original contributions to knowledge.

A web search for "muslim scholars middle ages" will reveal an abundance of information showing just how much Islam contributed to the Western culture that we take for granted.

Here is one article that covers the topic to a certain extent, but there is much, much more information readily available.

The early 'Abbasids were also fortunate in the caliber of their caliphs, especially after Harun al-Rashid came to the caliphate in 786. His reign is now the most famous in the annals of the 'Abbasids - partly because of the fictional role given him in The Thousand and One Nights (portions of which probably date from his reign), but also because his reign and those of his immediate successors marked the high point of the 'Abbasid period. As the Arab chronicles put it, Harun al-Rashid ruled when the world was young, a felicitous description of what in later times has come to be called the Golden Age of Islam.

The Golden Age was a period of unrivaled intellectual activity in all fields: science, technology, and (as a result of intensive study of the Islamic faith) literature - particularly biography, history, and linguistics. Scholars, for example, in collecting and reexamining the hadith, or "traditions" - the sayings and actions of the Prophet - compiled immense biographical detail about the Prophet and other information, historic and linguistic, about the Prophet's era. This led to such memorable works as Sirat Rasul Allah, the "Life of the Messenger of God," by Ibn Ishaq, later revised by Ibn Hisham; one of the earliest Arabic historical works, it was a key source of information about the Prophet's life and also a model for other important works of history such as al-Tabari's Annals of the Apostles and the Kings and his massive commentary on the Quran.

'Abbasid writers also developed new a genres of literature such as adab, the embodiment of sensible counsel, sometimes in the form of animal fables; a typical example is Kalilah wa-Dimnah, translated by Ibn al-Muqaffa' from a Pahlavi version of an Indian work. Writers of this period also studied tribal traditions and wrote the first systematic Arabic grammars.

During the Golden Age Muslim scholars also made important and original contributions to mathematics, astronomy, medicine, and chemistry. They collected and corrected previous astronomical data, built the world's first observatory, and developed the astrolabe, an instrument that was once called "a mathematical jewel." In medicine they experimented with diet, drugs, surgery, and anatomy, and in chemistry, an outgrowth of alchemy, isolated and studied a wide variety of minerals and compounds.

Important advances in agriculture were also made in the Golden Age. The 'Abbasids preserved and improved the ancient network of wells, underground canals, and waterwheels, introduced new breeds of livestock, hastened the spread of cotton, and, from the Chinese, learned the art of making paper, a key to the revival of learning in Europe in the Middle Ages.

The Golden Age also, little by little, transformed the diet of medieval Europe by introducing such plants as plums, artichokes, apricots, cauliflower, celery, fennel, squash, pumpkins, and eggplant, as well as rice, sorghum, new strains of wheat, the date palm, and sugarcane.

Many of the advances in science, literature, and trade which took place during the Golden Age of the 'Abbasids and which would provide the impetus for the European Renaissance reached their flowering during the caliphate of al-Mamun, son of Harun al-Rashid and perhaps the greatest of all the 'Abbasids.

by jardinier

Or: HOW IGNORANCE & RELIGOUS BIGOTRY SET BACK THE CLOCK OF HUMAN PROGRESS BY MANY HUNDREDS OF YEARS

By GRET RACINE

Once upon a time -- no, this isn't a fairytale, although I suppose it may sound like one on occasion -- there lived a man named Herodotus. He was Greek and lived at that golden time of Greek history when so many other great men lived -- Pythagorus the mathematician, Aristotle the philosopher, Eratosthenes the astronomer, Socrates, Euclid, ?schylus, Aristophanes, Ptolemy, Euripides -- the list's as long as my arm and I could go on all day, except I won't, of course.

Herodotus, however, was an historian. He travelled the world as it was recognised in his day writing about the people he saw, their cultures, their beliefs, their customs, a kind of anthropologist of his time. And all this information eventually found its way into a series of books simply entitled "The Histories."

As Herodotus travelled around, he saw many great and truly awesome constructions which drove him, eventually, to call them ?wonders of the world'. In his eyes, such famous creations of the mind and hands of humanity were so completely breathtaking in their splendour that no other epithet would suffice.

He had to trim his list several times because he saw so many wonderful constructions during his travels, but he eventually got it down to seven. And just so I can't be accused of not remembering Herodotus' Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, here they are: the great pyramid of Pharaoh Kheops at Giza in Egypt, the hanging gardens of King Nebukhadnezzar at Babylon, the great golden statue of Zeus at Olympia, the temple of Artemis at Ephesus, the mausoleum of King Mausollos at Halicarnassus in Asia Minor, the giant colossus at Rhodes, also in Asia Minor, dedicated to the sun, and finally the very famous lighthouse, or Pharos, at Alexandria in Egypt.

Today, only the great pyramid has stood the test of time and indeed, an Arab proverb even says this: "Man fears Time, but Time fears the Pyramids," which, in the case of the seven wonders has become only too true. Now, much as I agree with Herodotus' final choices, I honestly believe there is one more wonder which should have been added to the list -- eight wonders instead of seven. I suppose most of us could add at least one other, or even several, except we'd be falling into the same quagmire as Herodotus himself did when he first began compiling his list. Too many would be just too top-heavy, even to the point of diminishing the awe in which these great constructions were held.

So, you may ask, what's my choice for the eighth wonder of the ancient world? It's not too hard to guess, I suppose, given by background, and it's also in the same city as the lighthouse. It's the Great Library of Alexandria. When Alexander the Great died at the tragically early age of 33 in 323 BCE, his infant son was only days old, so the enormous empire he had carved out was divided equally between four of his most trusted generals. Ptolemy Soter inherited the quarter containing Egypt.

Fortunately for history, Ptolemy was a classically educated and highly literate scholar on many subjects as well as being a soldier, and he saw a need for everyone to have access to what he had received. So he devised an incredible plan, and that was to build the greatest repository of manuscripts the world had ever seen, a glorious temple to scholarship and learning in the very city his master lay buried, a memorial to Alexander and a monument to knowledge the world over. So in the dying years of the fourth century before the common era, the project was commenced.

The library was the centre of this great undertaking, but in reality, it was much more. A research institute adjoined the library, and lecture halls were built to accommodate the growing number of students who arrived to hear all the world's greatest minds expound on their theories and gadgets. A huge scriptorium and bookstore for sale of extra books adjoined the library's other side as well.

Some of the greatest scholars of the day came to work and lecture at the Library. Many were brought to Alexandria specifically by Ptolemy himself, others came as the fame and glory of the place spread from one end of the known world to the other. Demetrios of Phaleron was the first chief librarian, his task being to organise the library and begin to collect the books.

At the height of the library's fame, there were upwards of a million books there. Not books as we know them, of course, but scrolls, written on the papyrus paper for which Egypt was famous. The library even boasted its own squad of customs' officials, who searched every incoming boat for rare books, had them copied and then returned to their owners with thanks. Demetrios alone secured nearly a quarter of a million books for the library.

The library's nearly ten centuries of domination over the scholarly world was roughly divided into five phases. The first two centuries were given over to the many great scholars who came to teach or carry out research there, living on generous pensions from the Ptolemaic rulers of Egypt who succeeded Ptolemy Soter. The second phase, characterised by a radical shift from Aristotelian empirical research to the greater idealism of Plato, lasted until almost the beginning of the common era.

Religion and metaphysics gradually grew stronger as time passed across the divide, dominated by the Jewish philosopher, Philo Jud?us, the rise of Christian thinking not far behind. Religious philosophy slowly strengthened even more over the next phase, until about 400 CE, wherein a whole plethora of religious thought struggled for domination in Alexandria: Christianity, of course, the Hellenistic Judaism of Philo Jud?us, the paganism of Rome, Gnosticism, the Roman version of Persian Mithraism and the Hellenistic Neoplatonism of Greece.

Of the latter, one of the greatest exponents was Hypatia, last great chief librarian. One morning when she was on her way to work in the library, a mob, mostly Christians, led by the Bishop of Alexandria no less, got out of control, Christianity being completely opposed to Neoplatonism. The one regarded the Bible as containing everything one ever needed to know about life, the other espoused freedom of choice, of learning and scholarship. Hypatia, as a practitioner of the latter, found herself surrounded by the angry mob and was assassinated forthwith.

How were the books stored? Scrolls are best stored lying down, especially when there are a great many of them. Over ten enormous halls, in compartments signifying either subject or author, every scroll was clearly marked with the writer's name and the subject under review. The great task of arranging all these scrolls in such meticulous order had fallen to Callimachus of Cyrene, whose life parallelled the first seventy years of the library. He established the first comprehensive library catalogue, called the "pinakes." Nothing remains of it today, but what a boon it would be for today's libraries if it had.

Who taught or studied at the library? Demetrios himself was an Homeric scholar, and produced the first critical editions of both the Iliad and the Odyssey in the format we know them today. Zenodotus, who succeeded Demetrios as the chief librarian, was a brilliant Greek grammarian, literary critic, poet and editor. He updated Demetrios' work on Homer. Eratosthenes of Cyrene, a student of Callimachus who eventually also became chief librarian, was an accomplished mathematician, geographer, astronomer, philologist, philosopher, historian and poet.

He founded both the sciences of astronomy and geography, and was known as the most learned person of his day after Plato. Small wonder with such scholarship! He worked out a calendar with a leap year long before Julius C?sar and Sesosthenes, calculated the tilt of the earth's axis -- yes, in those days they knew the earth was round -- accurately measured the circumference of the earth and created a remarkably accurate map of the then-known world. And where did it all go? The final phase of the library's existence, after Hypatia's assassination and up to the time of the Arab conquest in 642 CE, was a time of slow decline where once knowledge and learning had dominated. The rise of Christianity across the world was principly to blame, the tenets of Neoplatonism and indeed all the other myriad philosophies that had flourished during the prime of the great institution, stamped out by the new religion's utter dismissal of any knowledge which did not adhere to their way of thinking.

A sad mistake. After all, when read carefully, the Bible espouses a flat earth, for instance, which was the current thinking during the time it was written. Had the Christians succeeded in their killing of all knowledge save their own, that's what we'd be believing today! But they didn't. Many of the students and teachers still remaining at the library saw the end coming and fled with as many books as they could. The rest, alas, were burnt beyond recognition in the great fire that destroyed the library in 642 when the Muslim Arabs overran Alexandria.

But not all was lost. If the Arabs were great warriors in the name of their new religion, then they were also great scholars, intellectual and sophisticated. Many of the scrolls came into Arab hands over the following decades known in the west as the dark ages. And when light once again began to filter into Europe during the reformation, western scholars, hungry for information, found these translations, soaking up the wonders they contained. Again, many swapped languages and were translated into Latin, English, other vernacular tongues of the region. Knowledge slowly returned and was built upon. Giant minds surfaced again?Copernicus, Brahe, Kepler, Bacon, Shakespeare, Harvey, Galileo, Newton, to name only a few?not everything had been destroyed.

And yet, it's so easy to imagine that, had not this wonderful storehouse of knowledge been wiped out by such ignorance as existed then, we may have had automobiles shortly after the commencement of the first millennium, for instance, planes and jet fighters a thousand years ago, and Galileo and Newton may have been the first men to walk on the moon. Which would put us in this generation perhaps on the very edge of exploring our own galaxy, reaching out to others, colonising new worlds! All this and much, much more!

I do not blame Herodotus for failing to include the Great Library of Alexandria on his list of ancient wonders of the world. Those he chose were indeed wonderful enough, magnificent tributes to the ingenuity of the human mind. It was what they stood for that really mattered. Only the great pyramid remains to remind us of what went before. But tombs and monuments to gods no longer worshipped, even beauty such as King Nebukhadnezzar's gardens, do nothing more than to awe.

The Great Library, although destroyed, was quite different, however. Yes, it no doubt awed those who saw it, but it was what it stood for that was far more important than any edifice of brick and stone, marble and gold could ever be. It held our heritage, our inheritance of a world that should have been. We had to re-discover so much that was lost that we are probably many centuries, even millennia, from where we should be in our development.

It was a wonderful achievement for its time and a tragic loss for our future -- the Great Library of Alexandria, the eighth wonder of the ancient world. (Ken ye he ratzon) I rest my case.

by jdclyde

are one thing.

What has this "civlization" done to better humanity since? Even the different "flavor" of Islam can't live with each other showing they seem to have no place in a civilized world.

It really should be a real eye opener for all the bleeding hearts out there. These are not a "peaceful" people. If they would just as soon kill the "incorrect" flavors of islam, what do you really think they want to do to someone that doesn't follow ANY verson of islam?

by maxwell edison

What about Islamic creationism? Is that particular religion, or people who practice it, as split on the issue as Christian creationists versus evolutionists?

What about Hindu creationism?

What about Jewish creationism? Don't the major Jewish denominations accept evolutionary creationism?

What about Shinto creationism, or the religious beliefs of native Americans, native Africans, and native Australians?

How many of these other religions also have people who believe in either creationism or evolutionary creationism? I don't know the answers, and you might be able to pick one that I mentioned to dispel my suspicion. But lump ALL creationists together, Julian, not just American fundamental Christians. And don't forget the Italian Christians, or the Spanish, or Mexican, or eastern Europeans, or South American, or....

According to a PBS documentary on evolution, Australian Young Earth Creationists claimed that five percent of the Australian population now believe that Earth is thousands, rather than billions, of years old. The documentary further states that Australia is a particular stronghold of the creationist movement. In fact, 28 percent of all Australians believe the Bible offers a more likely explanation of the origins of life than evolution, so says an Australian opinion poll.

In the United Kingdom, a 2006 poll on the origin and development of life published the following results: 22% chose creationism, 17% selected intelligent design, 48% selected evolution theory, 13% did not know.

Christians, especially the American evangelical variety, are people you love to condemn for their beliefs. How about judging those other religions and those other people by the same measure? You love to place many others on a pedestal, especially in favor over American fundamentalist Christians, and you often times remind everyone how there are many more of them. So how about calling them the same nasty things you call the American fundamentalist Christians?

Do you agree with the following statement?

It is a tragic comment on the mentality of Australians to realize 28 percent of them believe God created humans at one time "as is".

You're a bigot, Julian, plain and simple. And you apparently take pleasure in hating or despising others. And you're a hypocrite as well, because you won't hold all people to the same standards.

by Member 25348569

and other things.

One of the problems that we non-believers have in TR is that we gain ourselves a reputation for Christian-Bashers. In my (our) defense, I would say that's because the only people that we have had to discuss religious topics with are the mainly American Christians who are TR peers. Were there, say, any Creationist Islamic or Intelligent Design-loving Hindu peers with whom I could cross swords then I would be delighted to get stuck in (fatwas excepting, of course).

I will happily, actually unhappily, condemn the 28% of Australians and the 52% of my own countrymen for their lack of knowledge and their inability to think logically around what little knowledge they do posess.

As far as creation myths go, by the way, I would take them a lot more seriously if they were similar. Obviously the Judaeo, Christian and Islamic stories are close because of common Jewish roots but the Hindu myth, for instance, is very different.

Neil

by maxwell edison

I've avoided religious discussions for a reason. I've not entered into any such discussions in which I've revealed my own beliefs, or lack thereof, at least not in depth or detail. (Desmond created the universe in his backyard, remember? And I got the name "Desmond" because he was a character in a Beatles song.)

I will say this, however. I'm extremely tolerant of those who have deep-rooted religious beliefs, whatever those beliefs may be. I won't criticize them; I won't call them idiots; I won't call them mentally tragic people. I won't even challenge those beliefs and/or call them myths. I also have as much tolerance for those who don't. I won't condemn or criticize those folks either. I may fall on one side; I may fall on the other side; or I may fall somewhere in the middle. Or, heaven forbid, I might be so confused, that I don't know what the hell to believe. (Is heaven and hell a religious reference in this case?)

And while I may not argue the points made by evangelical Christians, or those to the contrary, I will certainly argue their right to believe in those points. Personally speaking, I don't care what anyone believes -- AS LONG AS they don't force those beliefs on me, and/or infringe on my life or my belief system because of it.

That statement alone, would make me fall on the side of the argument that suggests creationism does not belong in the public schools as a forced part of the curriculum. However, I take it a step further and ALSO suggest that creationism and/or intelligent design should be a choice in public schools, since the customer (the taxpayer) pays for that education, they should have a choice as to the belief system instilled in their own kids, and they should get what they want and pay for. While it could certainly be argued that the creationism people are forcing their beliefs on others, it can also be argued that the anti-creationism people are also forcing their beliefs on the creationism people by taking their tax money and not delivering a product they want. Neither should force their views on the other; and neither should force the other to pay for it. Both sides are right, but for some reason they can't find a common ground. And they can't find a common ground because the premise is flawed, the premise being the way our public education system is structured. And that is what should change. Unfortunately, the anti-creationism folks don't want to change that either, at least not in the way I see the issue being debated.

However, the intent of this discussion, as started by our Australian friend, was to attack and criticize a group of people simply because of what they believe. No more, no less. It's not to argue whether it's a scientific belief, or religious belief, or a philosophical belief. It was not to debate whether or not it should belong in the public school system, and/or in which department it belongs. It was not intended to try to understand those with opposing views. It was intended to attack and criticize, and it was intolerance personified.

And you don't appear to be much better. You said, "I will happily, actually unhappily, condemn the 28% of Australians and the 52% of my own countrymen for their lack of knowledge and their inability to think logically around what little knowledge they do posses."

Like I said, I won't condemn either one of you for what you may or may not believe. And just because someone might want to talk about it or write about it, that isn't sufficient enough reason for condemnation. After all, I don't have to listen or read it; and neither do you.

by maxwell edison

You said that you, "....will happily, actually unhappily, condemn the 28% of Australians and the 52% of my own countrymen for their lack of knowledge and their inability to think logically around what little knowledge they do posses."

Specifically, ".....their inability to think logically around....."

How ironic is that?

And how "logical" is it (or illogical, in this case), to challenge one's belief system in such a way?

As long as no one is FORCING a belief system onto the other, it seems much more logical to just live and let live.

by jardinier

Maxwell's self-appointed kangaroo court has "tried" me and found me guilty.

Actually Max it's nice to find you participating in a religious discussion because, not being aligned to any known religion yourself, you are impartial -- well except of course when Americans are criticised for any reason at all.

I fail to see how you equate criticism and disagreement with "hating and despising."

Why do I pick on American evangelicals? Because they are in HUGE proportions compared with Australians of the same persuasion. As mentioned in another post, 39 percent of the American population describe themselves as "Born-again" Christians.

That's not 39 per cent of American Christians, but 39 per cent of the general population.

In Australia Christians of any flavour are in a minority of the general population. I doubt if you could find 3.9 per cent of Born-agains -- it would be closer to 0.39 per cent.

I don't actually hate or despise such people, I just try to avoid them.

However I have become exasperated with them because I have chosen, as a change of pace from TR, to participate in discussions at American Christian websites.

Perhaps you should try discussing religion with your fellow Americans who fall into this category, and who dominate the discussions.

I would be betting that you would become exasperated much more readily than myself, and especially because your President publicly indentifies with these people.

Regarding persons of other faiths, I can have a calm, rational conversation with any Muslim, Hindu or Buddhist I have met. It is not possible to have ANY kind of rational conversation with Born-again Christians.

Where does the difference lie? I would suggest that it is in the core doctrine of Christianity which states that Christianity is the ONLY valid religion and the ONLY way to avoid eternal hellfire.

Hindus and Buddhist are NOT proselytizers. They do not (nor ever have as far as I know) try to convert Christians or anyone else to their own religion. They do NOT say that Christians will go to hell because of their different beliefs.

Muslims (and as mentioned elsewhere I speak to one almost every day) do NOT say that Christians will go to hell. The primary theological difference is that Muslims (as stated in the Koran) do not believe that Jesus was crucified, hence nullifying the core doctrine of Christianity.

Judging the moderate Muslims for not speaking out against the extremists in their own faith is a totally separate issue from their attitude to Christians in general.

As for your documentary which states: "that Australia is a particular stronghold of the creationist movement," well that is just plain crap. I ought to know because I have attended churches of various denominations including the Charismatics, the latter being the only group that insists on a literal interpretation of Scripture.

While the Charismatic movement is the only branch of Christianity that is growing somewhat in Australia, their numbers are still minute compared with the other Christian churches and especially the population as a whole.

It has been my lifetime experience that church-going Christians form a very small minority of the overall population.

In large organisations in which I have worked -- which include an electronics factory, the public service and metropolitan daily newspapers -- you could count the active Christians on your fingers and toes.

Well that will do for now.

If you wish to view me as a bigot and hypocrite, I will not lose any sleep over that. Whatever I might feel or believe about your own character, I do not feel disposed to comment at this time.

by Member 25348569

- it will have to wait until tomorrow. "you don't appear to be much better" does requires some comeback as I don't believe that condemning wilful ignorance is necessarily a bad thing.

I also really want to answer your "choice in public schools" point properly if our differing perspective and culture lets me get my point over.

by x-marcap

Here are a few points for you to consider.

I also expect people to understand that until the Muslims that are moderate stop enabling the ones that are the extremists, they deserve the same fate. They need to abandon the radicals to their fate.

1. The moderates that protect the radicals are as guilty as the radicals are.

2. The radicals are going to be killed one way or another now. It's simple: Don?t bite alligators on the tongue.

3. The question is this: Will they quit trying to kill us? They say no. Any action we now take is self defense. We'd rather have been left alone and have cheep gas, and beer.

4. The "innocent" Muslims hide and protect the guilty ones. They are therefore just as guilty of their acts and deserve the same fate.

5. The US is not mostly semi-tropical, Australia is, and is lovely. I've been all over Australia. I loved it, and if I left here I'd probably head there. (Abandon all cold winter spots.) Most of the U.S. is COLD in the winter.

6. If you fight a limited war you'll have limited success.

7. The reason for a scorched earth policy is that the moderates say they'll start fighting if we kill their radical brothers... Killing civilians is a sad by-product of combat. It is nearly impossible to kill a man without injuring the woman whose skirts he hides behind.

8. We need to explain that we'd be at peace, but they started it. Way, Way back. We are just starting to fight...

9. Much of the cost of your fuel is taxes. Get rid of the political idiots, and get a less socialistic government.

I actually use mostly ethanol --- Made of corn that I happen to grow... the corn stove is my reusable fuel heater.

America has political problems, but we have other issues that you may not. We had Bill and Hillary. Can we spell contempt of court, children?

As far as I can tell, the most wasteful people are the ones telling us to be kind to the Earth. Al Gore and the RF Kennedy flying in private jets to tell us to conserve... There are horribly wasteful people, but they seem to be the ones running around telling us how to live, and are on the left side of the political aisle.

I may drive a larger car, but I get better mileage than does an econo-box... I get 28 on the highway. And my daily drive is almost all highway... I have put 360 miles on about 14 gallons. My friend has a toileta and gets 22-24. I can hardly walk after riding with him...

by mjwx

Since you?ve asked me to consider these points, I will do so one at a time.

1. True.

2. Extremists are easy to kill just like anyone else, extremism is hard to kill just like any other idea.

3. There are degrees of defence. Where a defensive offence turns into a campaign to conquer is a very thin and very blurred line making it easy to cross.? He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster? ? Friedreich Nietzsche and I have no illusions that they (terroists) are monsters (that?s why I post a warning). As for cheaper petrol prices, we?ve passed peak production they aren't getting any cheaper.

4. I agree that the house of Islam needs to do some cleaning. They refuse to do it themselves, so now they have the ?intellectually challenged? trying to do it from the outside. Innocent people should always be protected regardless of what their ilk has done. For example you are an American, does that make you in any way similar to Ed Gein? Of course not you and he are different people. Everyone deserves to be judged on their own merits.

5. Just a minor correction, OZ is mostly semi-arid so it is hot here most of the year. You can easily get summers of 35 degrees C average in Perth, Sydney and Brisbane. Hot/Cold we?re pretty much the opposite of you.

6. True.

7. I was merely trying to point out that scorched earth is indiscriminate and you should be prepared for its consequences.

8. It?s your fault, no it?s your fault. No I said it?s your fault. This is a trivial matter we are all to blame from my perspective, but no one will take responsibility.

9. True but is anarchy better than no government at all? Some states have cut the fuel excise and gained about 10c a litre (I think the exch rate is still 1:0.76) but the price is still high.

High beer prices? Be grateful you don?t live in Norway. In Norway it costs AU$10.24 (US$7.40) per bottle of beer. In OZ it will cost you AU$2.08 for a decent beer from the bottle-o (in a carton of 24) and AU$1.25 for a cheap one.

Do you drive a SUV or large sedan? Large sedans are economical (mileage vs consumption). SUV?s have some advantages over long distances as well.

Professor of beeronomics
Mike

by jardinier

But then perhaps you cannot live with the notion that without the Golden Age of Islam, Western civilisation would be far less advanced than it is today.

by jdclyde

my point is that like the days of glory of the romans, every bit of the glory is gone now, and only a bunch of rabid dogs are left.

The fact that some long lost relatives were productive and actually a value to the world does not justify the savages that reside in the middle east NOW.

by jardinier

Actually I would say that Christianity has passed its zenith -- marked by a period of questioning the doctrines (from the early 19th century to the mid 20th century) by scholars including Kant, Kierkegaard, Barth, Bonhoffer, Schweitzer etc.

The charismatic movement which started to appear about three or four decades ago has seen a surge back to the most extreme kind of fundamentalism, paralleled by dwindling numbers attending mainstream denominations.

An example close to home is the Methodist Church which I attended as a youth/young man. It was flourishing so well that a brand new church was built. Just 40 years later that new church has closed its doors for good because the congregation had dwindled to a handful of elderly people.

Some of the larger Charismatic churches in Sydney, in contrast, have congregations numbered in the thousands.

Thus today extremist Muslims (terrorists) are met by extremist Christians. It is most certainly not a recipe for peace in the world.

However I personally dissociate from the "End Times" theme that appears to preoccupy evangelical Christians (certainly those who post to Christian message boards).

I cannot envisage a full scale "war" between Muslims and Christians (or Westerners). Only a small proportion of the world's Muslim population lives in the Middle East.

Some people may be surprised to learn that of the top ten Muslim populations, only one (Iran) is in the Middle East.

Pakistan: 157 million
Indonesia: 156 million
Bangladesh: 133 million
India: 130 million
Iran: 74 million
Turkey: 66 million
Russia: 64 million
Egypt: 57 millin
Nigeria: 46 million
Morocco: 33 million

by mjwx

to crack down on extremism. Pakistan, Indonesia and Bangladesh. One of the people I work with is a Bangladeshi and he tells me that the Bangladeshi authorities have been trying to root out extremism for years. He said that this is hampered by the high rate of poverty in Bangladesh.

To extremism it seems that desperation (in poverty mainly) is its primary fuel. Maybe this is the key to defeat it. IMO someone is not as ready to die if they have someting to lose. This is also how I think HAMAS can be pulled into line. They have plenty of reasons for war but now they could have a reason for peace.

by unclerob

I saw a program on the tube the other day about this theory, I had never heard about it before this program. It is very convincing. Anyone else believe in this or am I just "gullible" (if I am you can say so just don't be nasty about it)

thx... rob,wpg

by Member 25348569

In the nicest possible way, of course. Fight it. [b]Think for yourself![/b]

We had a thread - the longest thread in the history of TR - covering this in mind-blowing detail.

One of the probelms is that ID is presented as a "theory" and the difficulty in convincing the layman that it is total bollocks lies in the issue of what makes a scientific theory. Real theories can predict the unknown and its their ability to do this that makes them provable - the more outlandish the successful prediction, by the way, the better the theory. ID predicts nothing and the cornerstone of their appeal to the layman, that of "Irredcible complexity" has long since been discounted.

ID is in fact the monstrously cynical creation of a bunch of American Christian Fundamentalist Lawyers; created for the sole purpose of countering Darwinism in a way that obvious six-day Creationism could not. It was intended to act as a wedge to open the way for the teaching of Darwinism countered in schools. The group are in some way frightened of Darwinism and see it as a direct enemy to their faith.

Trust me or not in this but I suggest that you go and find the [b]origins[/b] of ID. I also suggest that you check the credentials of the ID "experts" and you will find mathematicians pontificating on biochemistry, for example, but rarely - very, very rarely - will you find a real expert in any field speaking on his own specialty.

Check out the Evolution Lie thread but - please - do not wake it up!

Neil :D

by jellimonsta

You spoke of the monster of the depths. :D
Don't you know, Neil, that just one mutter of that name, is the equivalent of saying 'Beetlejuice' 3 times? :p

by rob mekel

This is if y're running off into the Darwin/Creator ID discussion.

But there is still an other Intelligent Design matter that can be discussed.
Being the one that we are into:
[b]ID for Information Systems[/b]

For instance:
1. Can SOA make the difference on how IT will develop?
2. What is the influence of SOA on ERP

As I see SOA it is of major influence on IT-systems development as it will influence company's investments made in the past (less friction costs) and in the future.

Rob

by dawgit

and they taste good too ;-) (with a light butter and garlic sauce, served with lightly sauted fresh vegies, yum!)

by dawgit

First, It's about GOD, and most people seem to forget all about that fact. Some people are so wraped up ?n their 'Right-ness' that they probably don't even know about GOD anymore. There's no reality in any of it. Go outside, look up, look at a tree, the earth, the universe. And just say 'Thank-You'. Take a deep breath, and let idiots be idiots. my 2 cents -d

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