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by unex 1 view

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I am sorry but I have to start a desiccation on the matter of unemployment in the IT Industry from help desk staff to IT directors, it is with grate disappointment that I have to say that I am within the UK I.T industry our government decided 5 years ago to bring IT Certified staff into the UK from other countries to ease the shortage of certified staff, but now we have the exact opposite we have certified IT Pros in the UK from the UK and we are still hiring IT Guys from abroad to come in and do the job on the cheep, from on site support to Help Desk support been re-located from Scottish Call Centers to call centers in India on the cheep this is upsetting me and no degut others. I demand that the UK Government now revoke the ? temp ? workvisas issued to Non UK citizens and start employing UK Citizens to work in the UK and to pout a stop to out sourcing Help Desk Support to other countries.

Stephen Johnston

20 replies

by ja

Careful Stephen. To a whole host of Guardian readers you are making racist comments. It's prbably an attack on the Human Rights of the "temporary" workers. Never mind that they are ripping the heart out of yet another UK industry.

James.

by john_wills

The Guardian is a socialist newspaper. The Economist, a liberal newspaper, would agree with it that opposition to workers immigrating to prop up an industry is inappropriate. If you object to both socialist and liberal economics, you are presumably a corporatist. Well, that stupidity is getting popular again, mainly in areas which have become prosperous through liberal policies and secure through socialist ones.

by unex

Hi All
Please do not take my comments as racist, as I am British my mother is Canadian and my father half Irish, I am trying to make a simple point that we have high unemployment in the UK as a hole and that we have well trained and fully certifiedpro?s from the UK willing to do the job.

With Thanks
Stephen

by unex

Hi All
Please do not take my comments as racist, as I am British my mother is Canadian and my father half Irish, I am trying to make a simple point that we have high unemployment in the UK as a hole and that we have well trained and fully certifiedpro?s from the UK willing to do the job.

With Thanks
Stephen

by john_wills

Check these words: desiccation, grate, cheep. Is this the kind of image you wish to give to all thoise wogs streaming in? Aren't you better than the wogs?

by road-dog

We have a program here in the US known as H1-b that allows foreigners in to work. This program has been criticed on labor and security grounds.

Now many American companies are farming technical jobs to foreign countries further damaging the prospects of IT workers displaced in the tech wreck.

I think that all companies using H1b labor should be forced to post the positions on a job board at the US Department of Labor that they want to grant under H1b to a foreign worker. If they receiverespoonses to this posting via the DOL, then H1b should be denied. Americans should get first crack at positions here.

Any IT outsourced helpdesk or online support positions should have a disclaimer on the "on hold" outbound message and the online support web site should have a printed disclaimer for those Americans using the system.

Americans need to be told what is going on, so that they can shape their IT buying with the same information that thay have with hardware.

There should bea "coded in USA" sticker on software written here. If a software carries this CIUSA sticker, then 90% of support positions must be done here.

by hal 9000

Microsoft Partners meeting the MS chiefs claimed that they saw Australia as their new happy hunting ground for all IT matters and made a big song and dance about how they where planing to move some of their operations over here and what a shot in the arm it would be for the Australian IT industry. How we would ll be better off even if we didn't actually work for MS as they would be taking in so many people that the rest of us could comand our own prices as there would be a massive labour shortage. I'm sure you know the drill a lot of hog wash.
What I found most interesting however was that while they where exponding Australia as their new IT centre they where telling us how they had just setup their new Product Activation team for all thier new products and their Help Desk in Singapore. Maybe I'm sinical but if Australia is so good for Ms why are they setting up the high ussage and highly staffed positions in Singapore?

While I agree with you 1000% companies like Microsoft will continue to move their production facilities off shore in the name of greater profits. Just have a look where Intel makes its CPU's or for that matter where any of the big US firms actually produce most of thier product.

With the advent of theinternet the world has got far smaller and now it is far easier to move all your technical support to one of the third world countries where you pay peanuts for the staff and have the added advantage of not having strict workplace health and safety measures to contend with.
I think it will only get worse as companies like HP over here don't repair any faulty products they just bin the things and replace them with new ones as it is cheaper to dothis than to actually hold parts for repairs and the staff who can perform the repairs. Recently at one compasny where I do some consultance they where raving about just how good a service that they got from HP when a multi-fuction device failed it was two months old and it was just replaced they thought it was marvelious until I asked them what they thought would happen when it was no longer UG from HP.
They changed their tune very quickly then as they realised that they had a throw away item that they couldn't get repaired. Even Canon who does stock parts is nothing but a joke as I tried to buy a circuit board for a fax machine only to find that it's price was three times the cost of a new complete unit.

by generalist

This sounds a lot like a version of what the Information Technology Association of America has done to the US IT industry via the H1B program.

From a purely capitalistic point of view with the goal of maximizing profits in the short term, using H1Bs or the equivalent and going the globalization route makes a lot of sense. After all, if you cut costs, you can increase profits.

Unfortunately the cost cutting has a major impact on the higher paid people of the area losing the jobs. In manyinstances they have to cut back on their spending because they can't find equivalent jobs.

I sometimes wonder if the trend will end up backfiring in the long run. The cost savings a company gets could be offset by a reduction in customers, especially in the tech industries. This reduction may not be made up by an equal increase in customers overseas.

by john_wills

What Unex needs is "S" Grade Economics, what they call GCSE Econmics in England. Despite many years in the U.S. I do not know how to say that in U.S. terms, mainly because of the lack of uniform external exams. Anyone with that much understanindg ofeconomics will see fallacies in the arguments of Unex and Generalist, fallacies it would take too long to explain here, but which rely on ignorance of, among other things, comparative advantage.

by generalist

I can't say that I'm well educated when it comes to micro/macro economics. The 'dismal science' is something that can get more than a little tedious at times.

I do question your comment about comparative advantages.

Using a VERY simplistic viewpoint, I would assume that a company that moves its jobs from higher paid 'native' workers to lower paid H1Bs, L1s and off shore outsourcing would have an advantage over an equivalent company that doesn't do that, at least as far as labor costs are concerned. In a labor intensive environment like a call center, that can be a big advantage.

Furthermore, outsourcing to other countries can avoid lots of regulatory and infrastructure costs, things that can have a major impact on the bottom line.

Now if my very simplistic interpretation of the phrase 'comparative advantage' is wrong, feel free to explain why you feel it is wrong. I suspect that such knowledge would help me and other TR members when dealing with this type of topic.

by generalist

Ignoring all the high level theory, economics has a major impact on people when it comes to their paychecks.

If you see a government or a company doing things that results in a reduction or loss of income in your paycheck, you will probably complain. I don't know very many people who would applaud something that makes economic sense when they are the ones taking the direct economic hit.

In the long run they might benefit from the trend, but that doesn't pay the bills. And when you can'tpay the bills or find that you have to do a major reduction in spending, you tend to complain.

It is human nature to complain about things that upset the status quo. And human nature is a major part of certain parts of economic theory.

by generalist

I've known for most of my life that the British education system was a lot different than the American system. Researching the terms GCSE and S Grade gave me an idea of the magnitude of the differences.

GCSE, from what I've seen, stands for General Certificate of Secondary Education. S Grade seems to mean Standard Grade. Both tend to be associated with students ranging in age from 11 to 16.

Call it Junior High School through Senior High School in some parts of the United States. Or Middle School through High School.

From what I've seen, a GCSE in a particular topic means that the student has achieved certain standards concerning that topic. I would guess that it would be the equivalent of having a high school being accreditedin that topic.

It might even have Advanced Placement or AP implications, especially if you score high enough on the proper exams. I have seen mentions of A-Levels and haven't traced them down yet.

by generalist

Technical terms tend to slip away if you don't use them on a regular basis. I had to look up the formal definition of 'comparative advantage' to realize that I studied it decades ago and actually retained some knowledge of it. And part of that knowledge WAS embedded in the original posting.

While 'comparative advantage' has a lot of benefits, it can be really hard on those people who end up on the disadvantaged side. When you go from being highly compensated to unemployed and unemployablebecause of 'comparative advantage' it hurts in many ways.

From a personal point of view, that 'hurt' far outweighs the net direct benefit you receive from 'comparative advantage'. You're the one who takes the economic hit while someone else 'steals' your job and has a huge increase in their relative standard of living.

It hurts even more when it is your own government that is making the rules that result in your job loss. And when the CEOs and CFOs get huge bonuses because of how they improved the balance sheet of a company via things associated with 'comparative advantage' you end up with a lot of grumbling and calls for legislative 'solutions'.

It has happened before and it will happen again, with variations based on techologyand society. And if you get the short end of the stick, chances are you'll complain.

by hal 9000

This whole thing is a short term solution which almost always adversly imacts upon the company involved. They will make massive profits for a short time and then start to lose market share so they downsize to save costs and as a direct result of this they lose more of their market because their customers get a better deal elswhere.

Unfortantly this is nothing new and I'm constantly reminded of what happened at NASA when the Moon Missions finished there where massive layoff and all that combined experience was lost onlt to be latter replaced by new staff who have to learn it all over again. Right at the moment NASA is a perfect example of what is wrong with the system you have to do more with less and not have the pratical experience to know when things are going wrong, then you have political interference in the name of saving money but in actual fact this only increases costs the ISS is a perfect example of this as in its original idea it would have cost far less that what it will end up costing but by bringing Russia into the operation money would be saved well at least that what was thought by the "Powers that Be" but this ment changing the orbit of the station with added costs in getting the thing into space along with a severe lack of testing of the obital craft and a reduction in real safety measures. Now while this doesn't cause any problems with the general public {until something goes wrong} it like most Government Solutions to problems is nothing but a short term fix that almost always ends up costing far more that what it ever hoped to save.

What is happening at NASA is only a small idea of what is happening in the rest of the world with just about every company after the short term profit and to hell with the long term solutions if you think back this is what happened to Apple when the Board dumped Stev Jobs and look where they are today. After they saw their market share drop to almost nothing the got Stev back hoping that he could perform a miricle which of course he couldn't. Any company only gets big by hard work and offering excelent service backup and constant development if any one of these is missing then it will fail what we are seeing at the moment is the loss of the service side and in time the eventual loss of these companies.

Just think for a minute where is National Semiconductor today?

by lukcad

If you will learn Russian - direct way to work abroad in Moscow. Because HITech is not local achievement, it's labour from all area of world!!!

by generalist

I suspect that, if another country can offer the same or better quality for a lower price, tech jobs in Russia or India would move to that country.

For that matter, higher levels of technology could make Russian or Indian tech jobs obsolete. Imagine if someone came up with an AI that passes the Turing test and can solve call center calls faster and more accurately than tech assisted humans. In a very short time the call center business would face a major falling out and hundreds of thousands of people in the call centers around the world would be out of work.

by john_wills

In England, Wales and Northern Ireland people take GCSE at approximately age 16; they take GCE "A" Levels at about 18. A good batch of subjects at GCSE is about equivalent to a US high-school certificate; someone with 3 "A" Levels is about equivalent to the graduate of a junior college. In Scotland they have "S" Grades instead of GCSEs. The difference is somethign to do with educational theory. Similary, GCSE some years ago replace GCE "O" Level for educational-theoretic reasons. In Scotland after Standard Grades people take Higher Grades, which are about half-way between GCSE and "A" Level; they usually take more of them than people take "A" Levels, and then spend a year longer in university. The UK school leaving age is 16, and a lot of people leave school with few or no GCSEs.

by john_wills

I was once unemployed for 68 months, although the reasons were probably not the comparative advantage enjoyed by workers in another country. I describe my thoughts and feelings after 60 months in some detail in my book Albatross 0-595-19418-4. But complaining... if the Job Service had not been doing its best for me, I might have complained about that; some people in the same situation complained about firms laying off lots of people while producing as mcuh electricity or whatever as before, butthe real complaint there should have been that the firms ever hired so many more people than they needed. The extra profits will eventually be used to buy more services, perhaps from me. Complaining about foreign workers is lack of solidarity - nihil humanum puto me alienum esse; b'tselem Elohim baraahem. Be glad of the total picture getting better and do the best you can in your situation. Life is mostly froth and bubble/Two things stand like stone:/Kindness in another's trouble/Courage in your own.

by dc guy

I have to side with the people who say that your employment prospects will become a lot better if you improve your communication skill by about 100 percent. The Japanglish owner's manual for my 1965 Toyota was only a little more difficult to read than your post. Seriously, employers have two very excellent reasons to hire their fellow citizens instead of foreigners: Familiarity with the business culture and fluency in the language. It's your responsibility to know what skills are in demand and to make sure you've got them. Desiccation?? UK I.T industry?? Degut?? Out sourcing?? "IT Guys," as if it were a title?? There are only three periods in that entire paragraph and one of them is a mistake!

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