General discussion


Well, Somebody's got to say it!

By road-dog ·
Stanley "tookie" Williams has been denied clemency by the Governator and a stay of execution by the 9th jerkit court of shlemiels.

Bye, tookie, you will NOT be missed. If you did find redemption, you are on a rocket sled to a much better place. If you did not, make that last meal a sno-cone, because in **** thay want ice water.

If any of the Baldwin brothers, Elliot Gould, or any other hollywood limousine liberals want to show solidarity, I hope there's enough potassium chloride to go around. Maybe he'll get that Nobel prize posthumously.

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My Death Penalty Stance

by BFilmFan In reply to Well, Somebody's got to s ...

I am opposed to the death penalty on the basis of inadequate determination of guilt prior to application of sentence and cost to conduct a death penalty case in the original trial and the appeals; it is cheaper to keep someone in prison for the rest of their life.

Will I lose a minute of sleep over Tookie's execution? Not a moment more than if they left him in prison for the rest of his life...

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In that case...

by Montgomery Gator In reply to My Death Penalty Stance

..we need to shorten the appeals process. There is already plenty of automatic appeals built in to make sure the process is fair, without having to add additional last-minute appeals. These automatic appeals review to make sure evidence was properly presented, due process was followed, and the defendant's rights were preserved. No need to wait 20 years to execute a criminal. A 1 to 2 year appeals process should be enough to make sure justice was done. With today's science and forensic techniques, a proper conviction is more sure than it has ever been before. Those 20 year old cases that were reversed due to DNA evidence being reviewed would not happen today because we now have the techniques that we did not have 20 years ago.

Also, I would like to go back to public hanging instead of lethal injection. Let the public see that justice is done. Hang them high!!

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Reversed Decisions

by BFilmFan In reply to In that case...

A number of the cases have been reversed on such things as prosecutorial misconduct, perjured tetimony, etc, as well as DNA.

I just believe it is to say "sorry we made a mistake" to a live human being than the deceased's family.

I am arguing that we should keep violent predators locked up and away from scoiety the rest of their lives with no creature comforts.

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by JamesRL In reply to Reversed Decisions

We have a number of cases in Canada which demonstrate the problem - people who have been convicted on circumstantial evidence who were later cleared on scientific evidence.

There was also a raft of cases with an expert witness (coroner) who was consistently wrong because of a paranoia over parental abuse - he was responsible for jailing many parents of kids who died of accidents, causing them to suffer greviously twice.

I would rather ere on the side of caution and not jail innocent people at the risk of letting a guilty person going free.

I am not for the death penalty for a number of reasons - studies have shown its not a deterrent because people don't believe they will be caught. And I think its sends the wrong message to do an eye for an eye - if we all lived that way the whole world would be blind.


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I agree 100%

by Absolutely In reply to Absolutely

There is no such thing as proof beyond a shadow of a doubt. The direct perception of eyewitnesses comes closest, and they are never allowed to serve on juries while testifying as witnesses in the same case. So the people deciding guilt (jurors) and the people determining sentences (judges) can in fact never reach the standards set forth by US law.

I also believe that the act of murder negates a person's right to their own life, absolutely. The impossibility of absolute certainty is a practical impossibility, and it is immoral to pretend otherwise. The closest thing to justice that doesn't violate the rights of the innocent (and make murderers of the prison system) is to lock murderers in prison for life without possibility of release unless they can disprove the original conviction.

There are certainly cases in which the evidence presented makes the conclusion of guilt logically inescapable, but only if the evidence presented is taken at face value. In reality, there is never a 100% guarantee that the evidence presented is not falsified.

The same moral premise that makes murder unacceptable makes execution unacceptable. There should also be no parole for any prisoner. Convicts should see nothing outside of their prison, including via television or computer, until after they have fully served their sentences or successfully challenged their conviction. Torture is cruel and unusual punishment, not imprisonment without luxuries like entertainment or data processing machines.

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I will add....

by JamesRL In reply to Reversed Decisions

I have met, face to face, an individual who was convicted of murder on circumstantial evidence and is appealing based on dna and other factors.

He was convicted of murdering his girlfriend. There was operating in the same area a serial rapist who was later convicted as a murderer. The victim was driven to her burial spot in a car with a standard transmission. The convicted person did not know how to drive one. Neither the victim or the convicted person smoked yet there were cigarette butts (same brand as the serial rapist smoked) in the car. No physical evidence linking the convicted person to the crime. No motive, other than the parents of the victim didn't like the guy and thought he was creepy.

And yet, if he had been convicted in the US, he may have been killed already - its been 10 years or so since he was convicted.


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The Death Penalty

by neilb@uk In reply to Well, Somebody's got to s ...

Talking to Americans, I've come to the conclusion that, in general, a retributive style of justice is more prevalent and more well accepted in the US than in Europe, for instance. Here we seem to favour measures of punishment which focus on rehabilitation and reinsertion into society.

The greatest expression of the alternative style of justice is France where the perpetrator of any crime is pressured to say why he did it and hopefully express remorse and the presence or lack of visible remorse is always reported and the press make special note of whether or not a criminal expresses remorse.

In the US, it seems, you are either on the right of the barrier separating the community from barbarity or on the other side amongst the barbarians. Your cultural history of Protestant Christian thought makes it easy for you to divide the world into the redeemed and the damned with no intermediate states. I don't believe that this is openly expoused - aside from fundamentalists - in quite those terms but the cultural heritage is difficult to eradicate from your mindset.

I would think - and please feel free to flame me on any of this - that most Americans easily accept the fact that some people are just bad and incapable of redemption. People come into this category when they commit a brutal and/or cold blooded murder. So, we get retributionary justice - one dies for killing another - and, anyway, there's no point in trying to rehabilitate someone who's bad to the bone.

That's why you do it...

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Plenty of leniency in the system

by road-dog In reply to The Death Penalty

We have a culture of violence in some segments of our society. Oftentimes individuals use up any grace they have coming at a young age and persist in their violent ways. Many times, young people get minimal punishment for crimes involving violence and perhaps sociopathic behaviors. These leniencies unfortunately often result in a lack of fear of the legal system, rather than a true penitence and change of heart. By the time the system takes them seriously, they have committed crimes requiring heavy penalties.

Here in Florida, a minor was sentenced to death in the shooting death of a teacher at his school. His sentence was commuted due to his young age. He was re-arrested last week for a violent robbery of a pizza delivery guy with a firearm.

The gang culture in America is similar to major league baseball. Youths are trained in antisocial lifestyles by senior gang members and initiated into this culture of violence. Sadly, this leads to multiple generations of families with single mothers on the public dole and fathers in the prison system.

Unfortunately, our nation perpetuates this cycle by removing personal accountability from entire generations with social spending that rewards self-defeating behaviors. We financially reward broken families and destroy self-improvement with the cruel racism of low expectations.

Minority "leaders" constantly tell this constituancy that they cannot succeed on their own and need ever more initiative-destroying public spending to cure their ills.

It has gotten so ridiculous that young blacks who excel at school are branded as "sell-outs" and "Uncle Toms" or accused of "acting white".

This doom spiral will continue until the culture implodes or the pendulum swings back and personal responsibility becomes a virtue that is valued in this sub-culture again.

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I accept what you're saying - but

by neilb@uk In reply to Plenty of leniency in the ...

what of all of the nations who take the social spending far beyond the levels that your country does - that's most (all?) of Europe and most of the English speaking nations elsewhere?

If this were a simple "cause and effect" then all of those nations would have higher prison populations and crime figures than the US.

They don't.

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Good observation

by road-dog In reply to I accept what you're sayi ...

Maybe I failed to articulate the sociological angle well enough. This isn't simply and economic aid issue, raw numbers of dollars are only symptomatic of the flawed approach.

You see, social spending has been deliberately disconnected from personal responsibility in our approach. A state (don't recall which) tried to force welfare recipients to work, even at "makework" to give back to society what is taken from public largess. This was met with a huge uproar from liberals who decried such a thing as "demeaning". (like some of the jobs I've worked weren't)

This causes a perpetuation of irresponsibility that has caused a near complete collapse in social frameworks that ordinarily make people productive members of society. Simply put; the system has subsidized the basest parts of human nature through financial incentive and removal of responsibility to comply with the norms of the social contract.

We are creating armies of people who are unequipped to join "civilized" society. Minority "leaders" and the Democratic party have created a social underclass that is a perpetual constituancy that can be relied upon to give them a 90 percent vote in their favor. For all intents and purposes, this amounts to economic slavery; a system where absolute dependence is fostered and exploited for political gain.

This economic and social slavery results in anarchy (crime) by this underclass through the drug trade and despair that circumstances will not improve.

What is really outrageous is that this approach has been given over 40 years to solve the social ills it was intended to cure. Democrats love to use prejudicial terms like "Vietnam" and "quagmire" to describe things that are really making headway, while 40 years with zero net results is perfectly acceptable in this arena. But then the desired result isn't the creation of productive citizens isn't the objective, vote buying from the public coffers is.

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