Discussion Locked

What is going on in Paris?

0 helpful
169 replies
Closed to new repliesThis discussion is closed. It stays readable, but it takes no new replies.

Civil Mayhem Rocks France for 12th Night

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051108
/ap_on_re_eu/france_rioting

By JOCELYN GECKER, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 48 minutes ago

PARIS - France will impose curfews under a state-of-emergency law and call up police reservists to stop rioting that has spread out of Paris' suburbs and into nearly 300 cities and towns across the country, the prime minister said Monday, calling a return to order "our No. 1 responsibility."

The tough new measures came as France's worst civil unrest in decades entered a 12th night, with rioters in the southern city of Toulouse setting fire to a bus after sundown after ordering passengers off, and elsewhere pelting police with gasoline bombs and rocks and torching a nursery school.

Outside the capital in Sevran, a junior high school was set ablaze, while in another Paris suburb, Vitry-sur-Seine, youths threw gasoline bombs at a hospital, police said. No one was injured. Earlier, a 61-year-old retired auto worker died of wounds from an attack last week, the first death in the violence.

Asked on TF1 television whether the army should be brought in, Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin said, "We are not at that point."

But "at each step, we will take the necessary measures to re-establish order very quickly throughout France," he said. "That is our prime duty: ensuring everyone's protection."

The recourse to curfews followed the worst overnight violence so far, and foreign governments warned their citizens to be careful in France. Apparent copycat attacks took place outside France, with five cars torched outside the main train station in Brussels, Belgium. German police were investigating the burning of five cars in Berlin.

National police spokesman Patrick Hamon said there was a "considerable decrease" in the number of incidents overnight into Tuesday in the Paris region.

Nationwide vandals burned 814 cars overnight compared to 1,400 vehicles a night earlier, according to national police figures. A total of 143 people were arrested down from 395 the night before.

The violence started Oct. 27 among youths in a northeastern Paris suburb angry over the accidental deaths of two teenagers but has grown into a nationwide insurrection.

The mayhem is forcing France to confront anger building for decades in neglected suburbs and among the French-born children of Arab and black African immigrants. The teenagers whose deaths sparked the rioting were of Mauritanian and Tunisian descent. They were electrocuted as they hid from police in a power substation, apparently thinking they were being chased.

President Jacques Chirac, in private comments more conciliatory than his warnings Sunday that rioters would be caught and punished, acknowledged in a meeting Monday with Latvian President Vaira Vike-Freiberga that France has not integrated immigrant youths, she said.

Chirac deplored the "ghettoization of youths of African or North African origin" and recognized "the incapacity of French society to fully accept them," said Vike-Freiberga.

France "has not done everything possible for these youths, supported them so they feel understood, heard and respected," Chirac added, noting that unemployment runs as high as 40 percent in some suburbs, four times the national rate, according to Vike-Freiberga.

In violence Monday, vandals burned churches, schools and businesses, and injured 36 police officers in clashes around the country, setting a new high for arson and violence, said France's national police chief, Michel Gaudin.

"This spread, with a sort of shock wave spreading across the country, shows up in the number of towns affected," Gaudin said.

In terms of material destruction, the unrest is France's worst since World War II ? and never has rioting struck so many different French cities simultaneously, said security expert Sebastian Roche, a director of research at the state-funded National Center for Scientific Research.

Villepin said curfews will be imposed under a 1955 law that allows the declaring of a state of emergency in parts or all of France. The law was passed to curb unrest in Algeria during the war that led to its independence.

He said 1,500 reservists were being called up to reinforce the 8,000 police and gendarmes already deployed. The Cabinet will meet Tuesday to authorize curfews "wherever it is necessary," he said.

"The multiplying acts of destruction, the destruction of schools and sports centers, thousands of cars set on fire, all of this is unacceptable and inexcusable," he said. "To all in France who are watching me, who are disturbed by this, who are shocked, who want to see a return to normalcy, a return to security, the state's response ? I say it tonight forcefully ? will be firm and just."

Villepin said "organized criminal networks" are backing the violence and youths taking part are treating it as a "game," trying to outdo each other. He did not rule out the possibility that radical Islamists are involved, saying: "That element must not be neglected." France's community of Muslims, at some 5 million, is western Europe's largest.

Local government officials will be able to impose curfews "if they think it will be useful to permit a return to calm and ensure the protection of residents. That is our No. 1 responsibility," the prime minister said.

A Socialist opposition leader, Francois Hollande, said his party would closely watch to make sure the curfew law is applied properly.

"This law cannot be applied everywhere, and it cannot be long-lasting," Hollande said. He said Villepin should have put more emphasis on improving life in tough neighborhoods and said the premier's proposals were vague.

Villepin said he wanted to speed up a $35.5 billion urban redevelopment plan, triple the number of merit scholarships for talented students and offer jobs, training or internships to disadvantaged young people.

"We must offer them hope and a future," he said.

But nearly 600 people were in custody Monday night, and fast-track trials were being used to punish rioters.

France's biggest Muslim fundamentalist organization, the Union for Islamic Organizations of France, issued a religious decree against the violence. It prohibited all those "who seek divine grace from taking part in any action that blindly strikes private or public property or can harm others."

The first fatality was identified as 61-year-old Jean-Jacques Le Chenadec. He was trying to extinguish a trash can fire Friday at his housing project in the northeastern Paris suburb of Stains when an attacker caught him by surprise and beat him into a coma, police said.

"They have to stop this stupidity," his widow, Nicole, told Associated Press Television News of the rioting. "It's going nowhere."

___

Associated Press Writers John Leicester, Angela Doland and D'Arcy Doran contributed to this report from Paris.

169 replies

by jardinier

A couple of years ago a friend suggested to me that France would one day become a Muslim country. I thought he was troppo because I didn't realise just how large was the Muslim population of France.

Now we see: "France's community of Muslims, at some 5 million, is western Europe's largest."

As the article states, the welfare of Muslim African immigrants and the offspring of such people has been largely ignored or overlooked.

So I see it as a pot that has been simmering for quite a while and it just took a single incident (the straw that broke the camel's back) "accidental deaths of two teenagers" to make it boil over.

So I guess you could say that it is a socio-economic issue rather than a purely racist issue which has developed from ignoring or failing to deal with a potentially explosive situation.

by itgirli

spot the French on the battlefield?

They're the ones wearing the running shoes!

by beads

About the time that Chirac looses his head - the "old fashinoned way".

Let them eat cake, I say! Viva la Frogs'!!

- beads

by dr dij

that's what they said on daily show (spoof show about real news on comedy channel), making fun of France.

Geez that was funny show last nite. (on again at 8pm tonite rerun): [paris newscaster, translated to english, watching a car burn:]

The fire she burns with the fertility of her inner soul.. (or something like that with the french waxing poetic about it)

So you're not uptight? I thought it would be too 'liberal' for you.. Well Rob Cordry is a Republican I think..

by tony hopkinson

Didn't this kick off after the deaths of two kids ?
Let loads of foreigners in your country treat them like 2nd class merde. Stand back and wait for the bang

by jdclyde

They treated them that good?

40% unemployment in the black communities. Good thing we don't have racism THAT bad in the US.

And this is the culture that WE are suppose to be envious of? pfff!

by m_a_r_k

I don't know that these yokels have a 40% unemployment rate due to discrimination. I'd be more inclined to think that their culture and religion do not allow them to assimilate and get real jobs. Hell, how could they stand to actually take orders 40 hours a week from an infidel? Or worse, from an infidel CHRISTIAN?? And look at the unemployment rate all across the Middle East. It is well over 40% in every country.

by montgomery gator

The two kids in question died because they were runining from the police and ran into a power substation, where they were accidentally electrocuted. Therefore, the people are rioting because two kids were criminals running from the law, and were stupid enough to run into a dangerous place where they got electrocuted. I have no sympathy for the rioters. They are acting like thugs, and are standing up for criminals instead of for law and order.

by antuck

That is one thing I have always questioned. When running from the police, stop. If you keep running then expect what happens to you. Don't scream back the police had no right doing what they did.

I also don't understand the rioting because of this either. The same has been here in the US that these riots start over somthing stupid. Now in France, as has been here in the US, people who don't have much, burn what little they have to the ground. That just doesn't make any sense at all.

by m_a_r_k

Normally I wouldn't skip a chance to pick on our French friends. However, this stupidity is getting out of control. Maybe if it was the white middle class doing this, I'd get a kick out of it. But it's a bunch of immigrants from a particular ethnic group. The most insane thing is that it all started because a couple of thugs got accidentally electrocuted while [b]running from the police[/b]! Can you believe that? A$$holes. If you run from the police, guilty or innocent, you better be prepared to pay the consequences. Just because you're a poor uneducated Muslim kid, that does not make you above the law. Some Muslim web sites are even broadcasting inflammatory rhetoric; basically encouraging these hapless stooges to continue and broaden their senseless marauding. A$$holes. With all this rioting, do these hypocrite punks really have time to pray 5 times a day? They use religion as a convenient crutch. If you're poor, uneducated and disaffected, solve your problems the old-fashioned way. Take responsibility for your own happiness and well-being and work to improve yourself. Don't burn buses and break windows and throw rocks at police and beat to death innocent old people. A$$holes.

by itgirli

but I have no pity for the french. They deserve this as far as I'm concerned. They want to give the US a bunch of crap about us being hostile to terrorists, let them reap what they sow. They can now see the effects of their poor choices and I, for one, say let them work it out themselves.

by jdclyde

Never apologize for something your not sorry about.

The deserve EVERYTHING they are getting.

Wonder if the US will allow the secular nation of France to become a Muslim state? Wasn't it the French last year that were banning ALL religious garments in public?

by surflover

but just wait, when it gets really bad, they'll be whining about "the slow US response to their aide" (I hope we just stay out of it and let the place burn to the ground)...

by gadgetgirl

hey, that was some soap box you got onto there!

(But it's kept your record of not submitting technical posts, so you're ok!)

:D

GG

by m_a_r_k

regarding my vow not to submit technical posts. Unfortunately I've occasionally strayed from that path of righteousness and into the more technical realms of TR.

BTW, feel free to jump on the soap box. I hear the riots are slowly spreading to other countries. Across the border to Belgium and Germany. If those rioters didn't have roots in the water-deprived North African desert, maybe they'd be able to swim across the Channel and inflict their idiocy on you guys in the UK. Be careful nonetheless, the UK is rife with the same brand of lunatics.

by jamesrl

The largest Muslim group in Europe has condemned the rioting and urged them to stop.

This isn't about religion, its about poverty, unemployment and the stupidity of youth.

I am not in any way supportive of the rioting. I abhor this kind of senseless violence -there is no excuse. This kids may or may not have any legitimate greivances, but by using violence they obliterate any chance of a meaningful dialogue and lasting change.

If the unemployment rate is so high, and the French culture is not welcoming to Muslims, why not move? My ancesters did....

James

by jdclyde

they wanted the cheap labor.

They were just unwilling to do more than exploit the immigrants and sweep it all under the rug.

I think more people would feel more sympathy over this if the French didn't walk around for so long with the ANTI-US agenda AND push their "culture" as the pinicle of civilization.

by dr dij

for some - high welfare, peaceful fun nation.. all sorts of programs and culture, great if someone else is paying for them.. not much in unskilled labor needed..

unlike here were it is competitive high stress, yet people can get ahead if they try hard.

by jdclyde

advances the cause of TRYING to CLAIM that Muslims are peaceful and if they are just left alone from zionist persectution they will live in peace and harmany.

And of course it is the FAULT of the ever arrogent French frogs that these people have nothing and ARE nothing?

I see a "jihad" coming after the THUGS that are rioting are "arrested" for their crimes.

Almost two weeks, people are starting to die, but it is still too early to talk about pulling in the military to restore order.

THE FRENCH HAVE A MILITARY? WHY????

I feel sorry for the French citizen just trying to live his/her life, but not for France as a culture or a country. They deserve everything that is happening to them.

by m_a_r_k

Signed,
A Person Who Has Set Foot in 16 Different Countries and 41 American States

by jdclyde

OZ is constantly telling us how much supperior they are to the US and how NO ONE would want to come HERE because they have it so good everywhere else!

Someone is very mistaken here, but I don't think it is you.

by m_a_r_k

He needs to take a course in mathematics. Oh yeah, the rest of the world is a Utopia and the US is the second coming of Hades. I'd venture to say that more immigrants come to the US than any other country. Yet everyone bad-mouths us about what a lousy country we are. Hyporites. Bloodsuckers.

by jck

It's part of the mentality of a lot of people who immigrate to modernized nations nowadays, unlike pre-industrial immigrants. It used to be you came here to earn your keep, work hard, and build a life for yourself. Now, people come here and often times not only don't want to work in entry-level non-experienced work...and/or, they get abused by the system where the cheapest labor gets the job...even if it means finding the guy who'll work free overtime even being an hourly employee.

They go to a modern country thinking that work is so abundant that they can get a job and become successful without hard working for it. Then when they can't get a job doing something they want, they don't want to mop floors a lot of the time and then they sit around and get aggravated at their lack of accomplishment.

Of course, that also happens in already-established impoverished areas of non-immigrant people in this country. So, it's not only immigrants.

I can tell you that there is also a large immigrant population of Muslims building in Holland, where some of my friends live (in The Hague) from Turkey. My friends tell me these people move there and live 2 or 3 families in a house and half of them don't work and that a lot of neighborhoods there are becoming like 3rd world countries with trash and debris in the streets, increased violent crimes, etc.

It pains them, because they tell me that Holland 25 years ago was pretty much totally pristine and clean and well kept. It's only since the influx of people from undeveloped nations (mainly Turkey) has started, it has gone downhill quickly. And, they tell me they don't know how much longer the Dutch economy will support this influx of people feeding off their healthcare system and what not.

A lot of people nowadays want to start out as career professionals without education or experience, and don't want to have to start as a cook at McDonalds or the guy who sweeps the floor at the local bowling alley and work their way up.

People have become spoiled...even the poor ones...and, that means they become complacent...and often lazy.

by jck

You couldn't expect someone old and infirmed to be able to go be a bike messenger, but at the same time the majority of the burden for their care shouldn't be on the rest of society, it fell on family, friends, neighbors, etc. And, it was mostly done out of respect for your elders....which is incredibly rare nowadays amongst people under 25.

I always preferred the Jamestown model, where if you were able-bodied and didn't work...you didn't eat. Society would refuse to support you if you didn't contribute to society.

If we applied that to today's welfare system, I guarantee you very few people would be on welfare...especially if they had to go out and farm 50 acres by hand or worm cattle or dig ditches or something...for that small welfare check. They'd run to McDonalds in hordes to get a job flipping burgers.

Anyways...conveniences in the modern world make people susceptible to laziness...

God knows...I hate to write by hand now...if it's not an editable document on my computer, I don't want to fill it out. :D

by m_a_r_k

It's called [i]The Millionaire Next Door[/i]. It discusses how ordinary people accumulate wealth through working hard and being frugal. From the '50s through the '70s a very large number of self-made millionaires (including owners of Mom-and-Pop shops) were first-generation immigrants. They came to this country with the goal of taking advantage of the resources (taking advantage in a good way, that is) to make a better life for themselves and their families. Unfortunately, that tradition has not been kept up. Their kids and present-day immigrants are blood-suckers.

by surflover

It's not just the immigrants, it seems to be systemic... no one wants to have to work their way up... If they cant make 6 figures in their first job, "the system is against them"...

not that I believe the system is, or should be their source of support... we've allowed our society to believe in the non-existant "free lunch"

by surflover

But this pretty much sums it up...

GATES' SPEECH TO MT. WHITNEY HIGH SCHOOL in Visalia,CA.

To anyone with kids of any age, here's some advice. Bill Gates recently gave a speech at a High School about 11 things they did not and will not learn in school. He talks about how feel-good, politically correct teachings created a generation of kids with no concept of reality and how this concept set them up for failure in the real world.

Rule 1:Life is not fair - get used to it!

Rule 2: The world won't care about your self-esteem. The world will expect you to accomplish something BEFORE you feel good about yourself.

Rule 3: You will NOT make $60,000 a year right out of high school. You won't be a vice-president with a car phone until you earn both.

Rule 4: If you think your teacher is tough, wait till you get a! boss.

Rule 5: Flipping burgers is not beneath your dignity. Your Grandparents had a different word for burger flipping - they called it opportunity.

Rule 6: If you mess up, it's not your parents' fault, so don't whine about your mistakes, learn from them.

Rule 7: Before you were born, your parents weren't as boring as they are now.. They got that way from paying your bills, cleaning your clothes and listening to you talk about how cool you thought you were. So before you save the rain forest from the parasites of your parent's generation, try delousing the closet in your own room.

Rule 8: Your school may have done away with winners and losers, but life HAS NOT. In some schools they have abolished failing grades and they'll give you as MANY TIMES as you want to get the right answer. This doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to ANYTHING in real life.

Rule 9: Life is not divided into semesters. You don't get summers off and very few employers are interested in helping you FIND YOURSELF. Do that on your own time.

Rule 10: Television is NOT real life. In real life people actually have to leave the coffee shop and go to jobs

Rule 11: Be nice to nerds. Chances are you'll end up working for one.

by Member 25348569

I'm a confessed atheist and pretty much of an Islamophobe but I can see why these kids are p:ssed. I'm not condoning any of this, just trying to understand it because it [b]will[/b] spread and I don't want any more riots over here than we've already had.

France's ingrained institutionalised racism is shown in the way the the two boys who died and sparked off the riots are referred to as "immigrants" despite being at least second - and probably third - generation Parisians.

Some have asked "why did they run?". I'll tell you why - because the French Police are arrogant racist sh:ts, that's why. The boys knew what would happen to them if they were stopped for an ID check. They would risk being detained and spending several hours being humiliated at the police station. It was late and they wanted to get home where they were expected by their families.

The Minister of the Interior, Nicolas Sarkozy, had to say that this drama took place after a burglary attempt implying the boys were invovled or boys "like them": i.e. Africans and Arabs. This guy has been pouring oil on the flames from the start in a heavy-handed attempt to get future votes from Le Pen.

After the first night's rioting, community members organised a silent march in memory of the teenagers and attempted to calm the situation. This was an opportunity for a good portion of the anger to be defused by the French Police and Authorities. Later that day, some 150 young Africans met with the Mayor to discuss the events. The mayor talked about the cost of the damage but did not make any reference to the heavy handed policing. During this meeting the police began to arrive with riot gear and baton-round guns, provoking the crowds. Inevitably, the police then began to fire tear gas at the crowd.

The following day, there was another incident which took place around the local Mosque. It is not clear what exactly happened but the police released tear gas grenades one of which landed in the local Mosque during prayers which was full of families. Understandably, a panic followed. It is this incident that triggered the riots again and they have continued ever since spreading into a worsening situation and spreading to other French cities.

It's probably now too late for either side to back down so where it's going to end is something that I can't answer.

There are 5 million Muslims in France and Islam constitutes the second most important religion in the country. They are easily the poorest section of French society. Under French law, all places of worship must be privately built and maintained by the congregations. It's OK for the Catholic Church as most of their churches and cathedrals already exist. Licences for the construction of buildings of worship can only be issued by local councils, and these are often denied for mosques.

The 1880 education laws made French state education secular, free and obligatory. But the state school calendar is based around Christian holidays and, under pressure from the Catholic church, a day has been reserved in the middle of the week for religious education. However, no planning is allowed in schools for religious minorities, not even for the supply of halal or kosher food in canteens. A series of laws enable private faith schools to have access to state and local funding in certain conditions and nearly all - 95% - of schools that benefit are Catholic.

The ban on religious symbols was passed a year ago and clearly aimed at the Islamic population. It was backed by all major political parties, including sections of the communist left. And this despite a ruling by the state council, France's highest legal institution, that the original 1880 statutes on secularism did not apply to pupils, only to schools, curriculum and teaching staff.

I'd be p:ssed, too.

Just my deux centimes worth...

To sum up: French racist culture and French governmental complacency has resulted in what we are seeing now. It's not over yet.

by garion11

The arrogant French or the terrorist Muslims....!?!

But it doesn't matter...whoever wins...

they are all still losers.

Here I thought it was all the fault of Israel and US.

by m_a_r_k

We need to be careful that this doesn't get out of hand globally. There are over 1 billion Muslims who have been festering for years just waiting for an excuse to explode. If it was Nazi youths, the Green Party, Boy Scouts or soccer moms rioting, I'd be amused. But this is different. This could turn into a religious thing (if the mullahs and ayotallahs and imans get their way). Religious violence is a scary thing. Check your history books for examples.

by jdclyde

French racism have to do with WMD and the way they have treated these people for [b]generations?[/b]

You are pathetic in your feable attempt to support anything in this discussion with that ranting.

by montgomery gator

Saddam Hussein sent the WMDs to Syria right before the USA and its allies liberated Iraq. That is why they have not been found, but pre-war intelligence indicated they were in Iraq. Pre-war intelligence about WMDs was not wrong, just outdated by a couple of months.

by jamesrl

There are plenty of Muslims of my acquaintence who are the farthest thing from "festering". They are peaceful hard working individuals who go to moderate mosques and contribute to society. I don't deny the existance of muslim terrorists, but its a far stretch from that to say that 1 Billion muslims are festering.

I will repeat the largest Muslim religious organization in Europe condemned the violence. There will always be a few who condone it. But its not a religious thing, its cultural. These kids are unemployed with no prospects, in country that seems to hate them.

When the IRA was in Northern Ireland murdering innocent civilians(there were protestant murderers too), did you think all Irish descendants around the world were festering potential terrorists?

James

by m_a_r_k

[i]"These kids are unemployed with no prospects, in country that seems to hate them."[/i]

What? When I was a teenager and on into college, I hit the pavement and found my own job every summer. I lost my job a few years. I hit the pavement and found a new job. Unemployed does not equal without prospects. During times of diversity, you don't curl up on the floor and cry "oh poor me". Yeah, the country "seems" to hate them. That's an easy excuse for giving up. If you're unwanted in somebody's home do you kill the homeowners and burn the house down? Nope. You leave.

by jdclyde

in the US, we don't continue to refer to them as immigrants decades down the road.

Nice to know that dispite what Sharpton and Jackson say, we are NOT the most racist country in the world. Acutally, it sounds like we are doing pretty good.

by m_a_r_k

I only said that more immigrants come to the US than any other country. This is a simple and plain fact. As factual as the sun always coming up in the east. I offered no opinion. If this fact offends you, then it certainly is not my problem. If you want my opinion about immigrants to the US, I think in the past they were very good for our country. Our country was built through the hard work of immigrants. Every American with the exception of full-blooded American Indians are here because of immigration. See link for further comments:
https://www.techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=8&threadID=184136&messageID=1879412

by just_chilin

France just said there were no WMD's.
Were they right or wrong?
(Some of u speak be4 u think)

by jdclyde

what his/her fixation on YOU is all about, MARK.

Almost exclusivly this wingnut has been stalking you through this discussion.

He/She sure doesn't match the user name, because he/she is definately NOT chillin.

by jdclyde

the petty country of France has shown repeatedly they are not friends of the US.

They have done a lot more than WMD.

Maybe you need to think for yourself once in a while too?

by montgomery gator

Like I said in my other post here, Saddam Hussein sent the WMDs to Syria right before the USA and allies liberated Iraq, while the French, Germans, and Russians were upset that they would no longer profit from the corruption of the Saddam Hussein regime. That would explain the pre-war intelligence. It was correct, just out of date by a couple of months during the time period between when the inspectors were kicked out and Operation Iraqi Freedom started. More than enough time to get the WMDs across the border. As usual, France was wrong, just like "u".

by jdclyde

does that mean he/she admitted to you, that he/she made "idiotic, uneducated comments"?

I KNOW that is what your "thank you" post was about and can see you laughing now.

Also, notice how he/she throws out the "FOX" news thing like it is some kind of insult. The next one will be to accuse you of being a "ditto head"!

How pathetic and transparent.

I can't believe how restrained you have been on allowing him/her to hang themselves instead of your normal "smash the stupid" approach! B-)

by jck

My friends in Holland and Germany always thought that America was the land of "milk and honey" (that's literally what they told me) and they thought most everyone here was at least above poverty level.

But after they vacationed here and saw how much Americans go into ridiculous debt for really unnecessary things and absurd amenities (gold-plated faucets, etc) and how many homeless and impoverished people there were, they couldn't believe it.

BTW...just a bit of info I picked up from the BBC World News out of Washington last night:

The Center for Economic Policy in London, England came out with a huge study of economic prosperity and likelihood of people rising from poverty, and reported that you are twice more likely in Europe to rise from poverty than you are in the United States. Sounds like the milk spoiled and the honey crystalized.

So...maybe...the man *is* keepin us all down??? OH DAMN!!! I'm gonna go burn my old Seagate MFM drive!!! And torch my neighbor's lawn jockey!!!!!! ]:)

by dr dij

the fact that their economy is going nowhere slowly, due to high taxes, biz stiffling climate are the cause of this IMO. I think even the unemployed get welfare, and quite a bit. People actually immigrate to next door Germany just to collect welfare.

they have taxes on everything and everyone expects a handout. students are PAID to goto college, and riot when they don't have enuf wine money. Biz are reluctant to hire people when they have to give them 5 week vacations to everyone.

This combined with differences in values and culture are only way to explain riots.

The parents didn't instill in them to work hard and succeed and improve your lot in life, and the French economy and excessive govt makes it harder.

[ed]
Tho I think this economic background helped the problem, I want to thank neil for a lucid outline of actual trigger events and social conditions.

by montgomery gator

You are right on target. These teeenage thugs grew up expecting the government in France to take care of them, instead of working for it. If the French government had cojones, they would have sent out the gendarmes with riot gear and live ammo and put down the riots before they got out of hand. There is no excuse for rioting and destroying property.

The only thing you posted I disagree with is the culture difference thing. The immigrants came from hard working cultures. However, the children who riot seemed to have lost their parents' work ethic and instead became French and want government handouts.

I am no fan of the French or Chirac, but I do hope they can stop this mob before France degenerates into a anarchistic mob like it did in the 1780s. I also hope they can have the guts not to give into their demands. To give in will teach the rioters that bad behavior gets good results. Instead, they should try working for a living instead of expecting the government to do everything for them. However, years of "bread and circuses" by the socialist government of France has resulted in this bad state of affairs.

by jmgarvin

Let them eat cake!!

You see 23% unemployment tends to anger the populous. Not to mention a totally inept government that could care less about France or the well being of the country and instituionalizing rasism will really set things off.*

So, what is happening? Well, in a manner of speaking the Bastille is being stormed again. This makes me worry though, it looks like we'll see fasism return to Europe (bad news if anybody is keeping track)

*minor content edit

by jdclyde

BAWAAHAAAHAAAHAAHAAAAA! :^O

Timing, as always, is right on spot!

(I am suprised your aol browser let you post it though) :p

by m_a_r_k

that my opinions mean so much to him/her and that I can have such a big impact on his/her life.

by jdclyde

the immigration of people from the middle east is much higher in Canada than the US, because they have a more relaxed immigrations policy. From there it is much easier to get acceptance to the US once they are Canadian citizens.

And you MUST ask the question. If their cultures were NOT inferiour, why are they swarming like locus into all the surrounding countries, and North America?

by just_chilin

Do you think the pilgrim fathers migrated here because the native americans had a culture that was superior to theirs.

by jamesrl

We do still get lots of immigration from other countries - around 250,000 a year (with a country 1/10 the population of the US - does the US take in 2.5 million a year?). But the bulk of that immigration is from 2 classes - family class where someone sponsors a relative, or entrepreneurial class where a business person who is interested in creating a business in Canada (and has $100,000 to start with) can come in. There are some who are sponsored by employers - scarce skills etc. Our immigration screening is pretty tight.

What was a little looser before 9/11 was the refugee class - we were a little looser about our definitions than the US. But since 9/11 we have tightened up and there has been a dramatic reduction in applications and approvals. If I recall correctly it went from 45,000 a year before 9/11 to 15,000 a year today (heard on radio on the way home from work last night).

There isn't a great rush of people from Canada to the US - not former immigrants anyway, unless they are doctors/nurses.

James

by m_a_r_k

Why didn't I think of that? It was practically sitting on top of that one-liner. ;)

by m_a_r_k

I've decided to take the high ground from now on and let idiotic morons drown in their own cesspool of arrogance. It's always more humbling and enlightening to one's self when you're made to flip your own light switch on in your head than have someone flip it for you.

by just_chilin

Apparently so small, none of our saterlites could catch them. I bet you still belive in santa claus.

by just_chilin

Only an ignorant person will say such a thing. What if it is your home also, where are u supposed to go?
- Remember, these are children of immigrants (not immigrants)

by jdclyde

This has been going on much longer than us going into Iraq.

I am sure you will remember the multiple times US targets have been the direct target of terrorists over that last few decades?

This is nothing new and has NOTHING to do with WMD.

France is NOT our ally and hasn't been for a long time.

They have been pi$$ed off because they are NOT recognised as a world power for anything and have been made irrelevant.

by m_a_r_k

Even if it is your home, you don't burn it down. You either divorce your spouse or you resolve your differences.

What you're talking about is no different than oppressed people all over the world. In the entire Middle East, for example, women have no rights. Most youths are unemployed. Their governments are corrupt. Are they rioting and burning down their mosques in the Middle East? The answer is no. So why do that in a free country like France?

by jamesrl

Quebec might warmly welcome them.....

As I mention in the other post, most of the immigrants to Canada come from the family class - where an existing citizen sponsors a family member, or the entrepreneurial class - don't think these kids are entrepreneurs.

The exception is Quebec - with a soft economy and a declining birth rate and an exodus of natives to the business centre of Toronto, they will take anyone who speaks French.

James

by montgomery gator

chillin posted: "Apparently so small, none of our saterlites could catch them. I bet you still belive in santa claus."
....
I had no idea we had "saterlites". I thought we used satellites. Anyway satellites can't catch everything, especially if they were kept in warehouses, then moved under cover of darkness. Saddam Hussein may be evil, but he is not stupid. I guess you are just afraid to admit there was justification for believing that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, despite his history of using mustard gas on the Kurds and the Iranians. I guess you missed the news stories about caches of chemical weapons that were found in Iraq after it was liberated. I bet you "belive" it would be better to just give in to the terrorists instead of fighting them.

by garion11

Norway, Sweden are already dealing with this although they are trying to keep it quiet, they can't. Australia just foiled a terror plot...

You guys still think this is all America's fault?

What a mess...

by jmgarvin

Why would this happen in the US and England? They are both good at squashing riots and making sure there is peace, unlike France. We also don't have a 23% unemployment rate and a "let them eat cake" attitude. We haven't institutionalized rasism, nor have we made our people lazy and stupid from government handouts (although it seems we are trying to go that route)

Also what are you talking about with Norway and Sweden? Can you post a link?

As far as Australia foiling a terror plot, what does that have to do with the riots in France?

by garion11

Numbers released in January 2005 indicate a sharp rise in the number of rape charges in Malm , Sweden?s third largest city:

Thomas Anderberg, responsible for statistics at the Malm Police, says there was a doubling of the number of reported rapes by ambush in 2004, following what was already a decade of steadily increasing numbers of sexual crimes.?I think that?s great news, says Anna Gustafsson, head of the Domestic Violence Unit at the Malm Police. She suggests that the increase is due to the fact that women who otherwise wouldn?t press charges for rape now choose to contact the police.

In other words, Gustafsson claims that we are dealing with a ?technical? increase, not a real one. However, national statistics reveal that reported rapes against children have almost doubled in Sweden during the past ten years:

According to Swedish Radio on Tuesday, statistics from Sweden?s National Council for Crime Prevention show that the number of reported rapes against children is on the rise. The figures have nearly doubled in the last ten years: 467 rapes against children under the age of 15 were reported in 2004 compared with 258 in 1995. Legal proceedings continue this week in a case involving a 13 year old girl from Motala who was said to have been subjected to a group rape by four men. (Note: These four men were Kurdish Muslims, who raped the girl for hours and even took photos of doing so)

The number of rape charges per capita in Malm is 5?6 times that of Copenhagen, Denmark. Copenhagen is a larger city, but the percentage of immigrants is much lower. And it?s not just the rape statistics that reveal a scary increase in Malm or Sweden. Virtually every kind of violent crime is on the rise. Robberies have increased with 50 % in Malm only during the fall of 2004. Threats against witnesses in Swedish court cases have quadrupled between 2000 and 2003. During the past few decades, massive immigration has changed the face of Sweden?s major cities, as well as challenged the viability of the welfare state. In 1970 Sweden had the fourth highest GDP per capita among developed countries with income about 6% above the OECD average. By 1997 it was at fifteenth place with an average GDP per capita 14% below average. Malm has a heavy concentration of Muslim immigrants in particular. According to some estimates, it will be a Muslim majority city in no more then 10 years. Crime is rampant in the growing ghettos:

Becirov runs the Islamic Center of Malm , on the outskirts of Sweden?s third-largest city. Some immigrant neighborhoods in the city have (official) unemployment rates exceeding 50 percent. Swedish authorities have failed to lift up the area, and seem to be giving the Islamic Center of Malm a great deal of leeway in attempting to do so. An article that appeared in 2003 noted that ?a few? of the 6-to 10-year-old girls were wearing headscarves. On a visit in January 2005, fully 80 percent were covered in class?only a handful were not. In a fit of absent-mindedness, Sweden has suddenly become as heavily populated by minorities as any country in Europe. The percentage of foreign-born is roughly equivalent to the highest percentage of immigrants the United States ever had in its history (on the eve of World War I). Roseng?rd appears to be all-immigrant. The public schools have virtually no ethnically Swedish children. There are stories?familiar in other parts of Europe where immigrants from the Muslim world have recently settled?of students harassing Jewish teachers and defacing textbooks that treat Jewish themes. Crime is high.

Is it unfair and ?racist? to suggest a link between the influx of Muslim immigrants and the growing number of rapes? Not if we compare with the situation in neighboring Denmark, where this trend has been evident for years:

Criminologist: immigrants are rape champions

If one leading expert is to be believed, the sharp rise in the number of rapes in this over the last 5 years is largely attributable to a group of unemployed and alienated immigrants. ?Over the last 5-10 years there has an increasing tendency to marginalise and alienate immigrants,? says Professor Flemming Balvig, a criminologist at Copenhagen University. ?As a result, many second generation immigrants have reacted against this through various types of criminal activity, including rape.?

Muslim rape concern

Alarmed at last week?s police statistics, which revealed that in 68% of all rapes committed this year the perpetrator was from an ethnic minority, leading Muslim organisations have now formed an alliance to fight the ever-growing problem of young second and third-generation immigrants involved in rape cases against young Danish girls.

As Robert Spencer has demonstrated, rape can indeed be linked to Islamic teachings of Jihad, and even to the example of Muhammad himself, his Sunna. Above all, it is connected to Islamic notions of the role of women in society, and their behaviour in the public sphere. An Islamic Mufti in Copenhagen sparked a political outcry after publicly declaring that women who refuse to wear headscarves are ?asking for rape.? Apparently, he isn?t the only Muslim in Europe to think this way:

The German journalist Udo Ulfkotte told in a recent interview that in Holland, you can now see examples of young, unveiled Moroccan women with a so-called ?smiley?. It means that the girl gets one side of her face cut up from mouth to ear, serving as a warning to other Muslim girls who should refuse to wear the veil. In the Muslim suburb of Courneuve, France, 77 per cent of the veiled women carry veils reportedly because of fear of being harassed or molested by Islamic moral patrols.

Hijab, the Islamic veil, is thus not ?just a piece of cloth?. It serves as a demarcation line between proper, submissive Muslim women and whores, un-Islamic women who deserve no respect and are asking for rape. The veil should more properly be viewed as the uniform of a Totalitarian movement, and a signal to attack those outside the movement. Judged in the light of the Mufti who said that women who don?t wear it are asking for rape, how on earth can the veil be said to be about ?choice?? The freedom to choose not to be raped if you dress in a normal fashion in your own country? Is that what freedom is about in Europe in 2005?

Even though Sweden, unlike Denmark, has almost no public debate about immigration, frustration is very much present underneath the surface. 75 % of Swedes think that many people in their country ?dislike? Muslims, more than in any other European nation surveyed. Even in Holland, which recently witnessed violent clashes with Muslims after the murder of Islam-critic Theo van Gogh, the rate is lower than in Sweden. But you?re not supposed to talk about such issues in Sweden. That would be ?racist?:

Swedish laws prohibiting ?hate speech? against racial minorities have been vigorously enforced. There have, for example, been a number of gang-rapes of Swedish women by Muslim immigrants. But Swedes must be careful what they say about them. On May 25, neo-Nazi Bjorn Bjorkqvist was convicted and sentenced to two months in prison for writing, ?I don?t think I am alone in feeling sick when reading about how Swedish girls are raped by immigrant hordes.? [?Jag tror inte jag ?r ensam om att m? d?ligt n?r jag l?ser om hur svenska tjejer har v?ldtagits av invandrarhorder?]

All in all, we must say that there is strong circumstantial evidence indicating that the rise in rape charges in the city of Malm could very well be real, which puts the Malm Police assertion that this is ?great news? in a rather curious light. And the problem is not just limited to Sweden. It exists in Norway, too:

Rape charges in the capital are spiraling upwards, 40 percent higher from 1999 to 2000 and up 13 percent so far this year. Police Inspector Gunnar Larsen of Oslo?s Vice, Robbery and Violent crime division says the statistics are surprising?the rising number of rape cases and the link to ethnic background are both clear trends. But Larsen does not want to speculate on the reasons behind the worrying developments. While 65 percent of those charged with rape are classed as coming from a non-western background, this segment makes up only 14.3 percent of Oslo?s population. Norwegian women were the victims in 80 percent of the cases, with 20 percent being women of foreign background.

Europe: Tolerating Intolerance

An incredibly revealing article that tells us all we need to know about the multiculturalist fetish in Europe and some parts of North America, not to mention the need for change within Islam. Apparently, the Norwegian newspaper Dagbladet reported that 65 percent of rapes of Norwegian women were performed by ?non-Western? immigrants?a category that, in Norway, consists mostly of Muslims. The article quoted a professor of social anthropology at the University of Oslo (note: her name is Unni Wikan) as saying that ?Norwegian women must take their share of responsibility for these rapes? because Muslim men found their manner of dress provocative. The professor?s conclusion was not that Muslim men living in the West needed to adjust to Western norms, but the exact opposite: ?Norwegian women must realize that we live in a multicultural society and adapt themselves to it.?

In January 2005, Norwegian media reported that 2004 saw the highest number or rape charges ever recorded in the capital city of Oslo. Strangely enough, there was now no mentioning of how immigrants were grossly overrepresented in rape cases. Why not? Unless there has been a sudden and unexplained drop in the number of immigrants raping Norwegian women between 2001 and 2004, which is unlikely, the statistics should be at least as staggering in 2005 as they were before. If they are not revealed, it can only mean that ?somebody? didn?t like the numbers presented in 2001, and decided to bury them. That ?somebody? must be a person at the very top level in the police, maybe even in the government. If so, that is disquieting. What is even more disquieting is that the media are equally silent about this. How come no journalists are digging into the material? And where are all the professional Feminists, in a Scandinavian nation brimming with them?

The conclusion one may draw from this is that the authorities in Sweden and Norway know about, or should know about, a disturbing amount of Muslim immigrant rapes of native Scandinavian women, yet choose not to make this information known to the public. Perhaps it would be just too politically incorrect to reveal the negative effects of decades of na?ve immigration policies. Perhaps it would also destroy too many multicultural pipe dreams among the intellectual elites, who have built their current careers and reputations on advocating how culturally and economically enriching this new population mix would be. So in the end, the safety of young Scandinavian women is sacrificed in order to keep the glossy image of a multicultural society intact. It is a chilling demonstration of an Eurabian continent that now appears to care more about not upsetting relations with its immigrant population than about protecting its own citizens.

by garion11

Do I really have to spell it out for you?

Australian terror plot committed by = Crazy kangaroos?

French riots committed by = Cheese and wine hating preppy school boys?

Swedish rapes committed by = Dr. Spock?

9/11 committed by = Drunken pilots?

Bombings across England, Bali, etc committed by = Surprise!?!

2+2 = ?

(Just for the record, I do NOT like France or its citizens. I was shocked at how arrogant these bastards were, yet they dare called US names...)

by garion11

An Islamic mufti in Copenhagen has sparked a political outcry after publicly declaring that women who refuse to wear headscarves are "asking for rape."

An Islamic mufti in Copenhagen, Shahid Mehdi, has sparked political outcry from the left-wing Unity List and right-wing Danish People's Party, after stating in a televised interview that women who do not wear headscarves are "asking for rape." Unity List equality spokesman Pernille Rosenkrantz-Theil has threatened to file suit for defamation against the mufti on behalf of herself and all the women of Denmark. The Danish People's Party has urged Justice Minister Lene Espersen and Integration Minister Bertel Haarder to stop the mufti's religious activities in Copenhagen.

Shahid Mehdi made his remarks in the DR2 programme "Talk to Gode," and reiterated his stance in daily newspaper B.T. The Danish People's Party and Unity List agree that Mehdi's remarks could incite Muslim men to rape Danish women by insinuating that women who did not cover their hair were undeserving of basic respect.

As a mufti, a jurist who interprets Islamic law, Shahi Mehdi is in a special position of authority as a Muslim scholar. Mehdi is currently affiliated with the Islamic Cultural Center in Copenhagen, but Pernille Rosenkrantz-Theil has urged officials to ban his teachings in Denmark due to his "reactionary view of women."

"The very idea that this man is authorised to teach young people in the Koran is ludicrous. It's like letting (Danish Nazi leader) Johnny Hansen teach the history of World War II," said Rosenkrantz-Theil.

The Socialist People's Party is urging Integration Minister Bertel Haarder to investigate whether Mehdi had violated Danish laws prohibiting foreign religious clerics from engaging in activity that poses a threat to public safety, health, decency and order.

http://www.cphpost.dk/get/82118.html

by garion11

Oslo rape statistics shock

Two out of three charged with rape in Norway's capital are immigrants with a non-western background according to a police study. The number of rape cases is also rising steadily.The study is the first where the crime statistics have been analyzed according to ethnic origin. Of the 111 charged with rape in Oslo last year, 72 were of non-western ethnic origin, 25 are classified as Norwegian or western and 14 are listed as unknown.

Rape charges in the capital are spiraling upwards, 40 percent higher from 1999 to 2000 and up 13 percent so far this year.

Nine out of ten cases do not make it to prosecution, most of them because police do not believe the evidence is sufficient to reach a conviction.

Police Inspector Gunnar Larsen of Oslo's Vice, Robbery and Violent crime division says the statistics are surprising - the rising number of rape cases and the link to ethnic background are both clear trends. But Larsen does not want to speculate on the reasons behind the worrying developments.

While 65 percent of those charged with rape are classed as coming from a non-western background, this segment makes up only 14.3 percent of Oslo's population. Norwegian women were the victims in 80 percent of the cases, with 20 percent being women of foreign background.

Larsen said that since this was the initial study examining ethnic make-up there were no existing figures to put the numbers into context.

"Meanwhile, it is our general experience that this is an increasing tendency. We note this by the number of time we need to use interpreters in the course of an investigation," Larsen said.

by garion11

They are probably the most violent, prolific gang rapists Sydney has known, with as many as 18 young victims. But until now the extent of the horrific crimes of four brothers from Pakistan has been kept secret.

Yesterday, more than three years after they went on a six-month rampage, luring girls as young as 13 to their home in Ashfield to rape them, suppression orders forbidding publication of their trial details were lifted.

They still cannot be named because two of the brothers were juveniles, aged 16 and 17, when they committed the first offences. But the crimes of the brothers MSK, MAK, MRK and MMK, and their friend RS, can now be made public.

The brothers, who came to Australia from Pakistan around 2000, had claimed in the face of damning DNA evidence that they were the victims of an anti-Muslim conspiracy.

The eldest brother feigned mental illness, they sacked numerous lawyers and aborted trials to ensure delays as they tried to wear down the victims who had agreed to testify.

Yesterday the Director of Public Prosecutions, Nicholas Cowdery, QC, said the brothers took the rules that ensure a fair trial "to their limits" and they "may need to be re-examined to assess whether they are appropriate".
AdvertisementAdvertisement

"People from time to time test the operation of these rules. Some people call it game-playing, but if the rules are there to be tested and used, that is a legitimate part of the process," Mr Cowdery said.

"It may be that a view can be taken that the rules are being abused and if that view is being taken it may be time for those rules to be changed."

The rapes of at least eight girls took place mostly in the brothers' Ashfield home between January and July 2002. The girls were invited to a "party", but would arrive at the house, which was strewn with rubbish and plastered with posters of semi-naked girls, to find no other females there.

Some victims were repeatedly raped at knifepoint and told they would be killed if they went to police. The brothers videotaped their rapes, and the tapes show another dozen possible victims. The police have not been able to find them all and some did not want to come forward.

The victims who did make complaints breathed a sigh of relief on Monday, when the oldest brother, MSK, pleaded guilty to the aggravated sexual assault of a 13-year-old girl in July 2002. That spared the victim from having to give evidence and brought the series of trials to an end.

The brutality of the crime, the last to go to trial, was typical. Before raping the girl, MSK told her he had strangled a girlfriend and hung her from a balcony in Iraq - though he was from Pakistan.

In June this year MSK was found guilty of four counts of aggravated sexual assault against a 14-year-old. MAK pleaded guilty to one count of the same charge after the trial was aborted due to outbursts by MSK, who shouted details of their previous convictions at the jury. He also jumped the dock and threw broken glass at the victims' mothers.

Under cross-examination, the girl was accused of coaxing MSK to have sex. She told the Herald: "It's always going to be terrible. In your mind you relive the experience over and over again. A smell will set it off or a word ? but nothing was as hard as retelling the whole story ? in detail while being accused of being a liar."

All five men had already been sentenced in April last year to between 10 and 22 years in jail for gang-raping two other girls, aged 16 and 17. RS hanged himself a week before sentencing.

For the first trial, in 2003, a new law was rushed through to prevent MSK and MAK personally cross-examining their victims. For the next two years MSK and MAK subjected their victims, the police, prosecutors, judges and even their own defence barristers to calculated ploys to avoid justice. An investigating police officer, Detective Leading Senior Constable Tony Adams, told the Herald this meant the victims continued to suffer long after the rapes. "It's been really trying at times but it's satisfying to see the end result and get the guilty verdicts." The victim who was spared giving evidence in the last trial told the Herald this week: "I am still angry but relieved. I was just nervous about everything and to face him - I was glad I didn't have to go through that."

by montgomery gator

chilin crudely typed: "Don't tell me u actually belive that cr*p!"

So, chillin, what is your beef with the USA, anyway? And what is with this crap with you using the letter "u" for you? I guess you didn't learn much about spelling and grammar in school.

The fact that some chemical weapons were found in Iraq after it was liberated. Also, Saddam Hussein used chemical weapons against the Kurds and the Iranians. There was a sufficient period of time for Saddam to move his WMDs from Iraq to Syria in between the time he forced the inspectors to leave and the time Iraq was liberated. I guess you would rather have Saddam Hussein still in power oppressing his people and threatening his neighbors and developing more powerful WMDs.

What I "belive" is that chillin is an ignorant childish spoiled brat moron who does not appreciates what a great country he lives in, and instead sides with the terrorists who want to bring us down.

by montgomery gator

As much as I despise the French, I do hope they bring order and put down the riots. A stable Europe is good for the world, and these problems in France jeopardize European stability.

by montgomery gator

...calling the kettle black.

From someone who can't spell "believe", "you", and "for", words most people learned to spell in the first grade.

Maybe the "Pot" is actually what chillin is smoking.

by jdclyde

From the chat type he uses, the age is showing and the level of maturity.

His crack pot professor who has never worked a real job outside of academia a day in his life sold him a bill of good on how evil we in America are and how we deserve everything bad that happens to us.

Kind of makes FUNTA look mature?

by m_a_r_k

You misspelled that word also. You forgot the 't'. It is correctly spelled as "b!tch".