Community archive

Ask something
Discussion Locked

Who's "smarter"?

0 helpful
81 replies

by melar

Closed to new repliesThis discussion is closed. It stays readable, but it takes no new replies.

I've noticed over my time, watching forums, chats, blogs, etc, that every time a Windows Vs Linux discussion comes up that its more often than not the Linux fans that resort to language like "m$ winbl0z sux0rz. bill gates blows goats!".

I think that just about everyone agrees that your average Linux user has a greater understanding of what makes their OS tick than windows users. Not everyone would agree that the average Linux user holds a higher understanding of computing in general (survival of the fittest).

So why do they insist on making themselves look like immature brats in a school yard argument.

Now I'm not trying to start a flame war (though I think I just might have), but I am getting sick of seeing these "winbl0z sux!$@#@" messages everywhere.

I do agree that windows does have a lot of problems, I'd just like to see a well thought out, grammatically correct, discussion.

For your reference, I do use windows, because it is the operating system I work on and support. I also like to play around with Linux when I get spare time (rare occurrence).

Please also note this is not a "Windows Vs Linux" discussion, simply a discussion on why otherwise smart people resort to petty insults when this topic comes up.

81 replies

by itgirli

Any time you get a normally civilized group of people to talk about something they are passionate about, more often than not, it will in some way deteriorate into such vulgarities. Maybe the Linux users use "winblows" and other such cheapenings because there are more of them than anti-linux slogans. I really don't know. But to say that it is only linux users seems a bit callow to me. Maybe you should look closer at the real issue.

by jamesrl

...those who too easily take offense.

This is the internet. We can't see facial expressions or body language. We can't hear tone or inflection. And many techies are not the most articulate individuals on the planet. Yet instead of making allowances, developing a thicker skin, or laughing off the goofiness, many chose to be offended. Worse still, people are offended because we don't agree with them. Thats a pretty immature viewpoint.

It would be a pretty dull world if we all agreed on everything, and frankly a society with a diverse range of viewpoints and freedom to express them is in the long run stronger and healthier than a monolithic society.

You can be passionate about your own beliefs without being dismissive and insulting about someone else's beliefs.

James

by itgirli

Getting people to admit to their own shortcomings, (oh, there was a joke there, but I'll ignore it)and society and people, as individuals, have a hard time admitting it to themselves and they are sure as hell not going to admit it to anyone else. So we continue to be obstinate. Some are more puerile than others and we as a whole need to relax. Not likely to happen for most, but a good thought, though.

by amcol

The real issue is the power of invisibility.

Here on TR, just like everywhere else on the Internet, posts to forums like this one are done anonymously and invisibly. We can all hide behind our aliases and screen names.

Imagine you were actually invisible, that you could walk around without anyone being able to see you. Would you act the same as you do normally? Would you still constrain yourself to act according to the rules of civilized society, or would you take advantage of your invisibility?

What's the point of being invisible if you CAN'T take advantage of it?

When I'm in a meeting I conduct myself in a certain way. When I'm on TR I conduct myself in exactly the same fashion, because I've never been able to understand why the rules of decorum and civility should be suspended just because I'm not identifiable.

"You can be passionate about your own beliefs without being dismissive and insulting about someone else's beliefs." Precisely. You can disagree passionately with me without insulting me, just like you'd do if we were face to face.

I challenge anyone who's flamed anyone in these spaces in any way to meet me face to face and speak to me, face to face, in exactly the same manner and with exactly the same words. I'd be willing to be a week's pay you can't do it.

Hiding behind an alias and throwing flame is just plain cowardly.

by charliespencer

This is the internet, but it is a particular corner. In theory this is a forum for IT professionals. I expect a higher standard of communications here than I would in an AOL chat room about Sean Combs' latest nickname. (He's dropped the "P." and is now just "Diddy".) (Although I've never been on AOL; not that there's anything wrong with that.)

For me, that standard included avoiding regular use of profanity, presenting well-reasoned arguments instead of blanket unsupported statements, citing resources when necessary, entering a suitable subject line, not straying too far off topic, proofreading before posting, completing a member profile, and even The Proper Use of Uppercase Letters.

I don't expect others to live up to my standard; everyone has their own. These factors do affect how much value I assign to a posting, and over time affect how much professional respect I have for the TR member. I realize many people don't give a hairy rat's you-know-what about my professional opinion of them (or anyone else's), but I also don't know why those people would be members of a professional IT web site.

by jrod86

I was reading an article on mixed-martial artists who bash traditional martial artists and it seems the same principal applies. People passionate about what they do are not always considerate of the reasons of others and belittle their way of thinking because it is not the same as there own. We've seen plenty of this on TR recently. It's childish and petty, but hey everyone's entitled to their own opinion.

Linux has yet to be humbled like MS has with all the attacks that are aimed at it. Linux does have admitted vulnerabilities just the same as Windows, but because it is not mainstream and a money maker, it's an easy and noticeable target. Once Linux is a target, the users of the next OS will flame them just as much as Linux users flame WIndows.

by absolutely

"Windows-bashing" may be more noticeable because it occurs, whereas people lucky enough to be able to switch to Linux never go back. Why? Because, well, Windoze does...j/k, but it is more problematic to users with a basic understanding of computing principles. If something doesn't work in Linux, you go to the man pages, how-tos, or in the worst case scenario a couple of discussion groups. With MS, you just have to wait until the corporate sponsors get around to fixing their incompatibilities. In short, Windows users have no complaints about Linux, except that they aren't comfortable enough without the corporate hand-holding, such as it is. That doesn't make for very impressive rejoinders. In other words, if they had a come-back, they'd come back with it.

by apotheon

For the love of God and all that's holy, quit with the security-through-obscurity argument for Windows's blamelessness. Either you haven't heard, or you're insulting our intelligence, but the fact of the matter is that even in implementations where Linux outnumbers Windows two to one and gets probed for attack far more often than Windows systems, such as on the webserver end of the small computing market, Windows gets the lions' share of vulnerabilities.

Furthermore, there are very distinct, technical reasons that Linux is a more secure OS than Windows, and they're not vague applications of exploit statistics: they are, instead, matters of true multi-user system architecture, strict privilege separation, non-integral filetype declarations, integral stateful packet filtering, increased software orthogonality, kernel modularity, et cetera, et alii, ad infinitum, ad nauseum. In fact, recent studies have shown that Linux enjoys a bugs per thousand lines of code rate that is a mere fraction (less than ten percent; I don't recall the exact numbers) of the rate Windows suffers.

Even if we were to take the "more users contributes to more attempts to crack security" argument seriously, the flipside of that is that while that may be true for software with closed source like Windows, it's not so much for software with open source like Linux. The more people there are using Linux, the more people there are auditing it for bugs and vulnerabilities, and thus the more secure it gets. Meanwhile, the more people there are using Windows, the harder it gets for the limited number of programmers working on it to patch all the holes as quickly as they get found.

Please, stop slinging that ridiculous argument around. It doesn't hold water.

by stress junkie

For me it's a question of frustration. If you explain to someone that two plus two equals four and the other person replies with something that doesn't make sense like two plus two can equal four or five or zero then it gets frustrating. When you say that Microsoft's products have this or that problem and you get a response that nothing is perfect from someone who is obviously ignorant of both Microsoft internals and the alternatives to Microsoft products then it gets frustrating.

The only reason that the frustration means anything is that these people are running machines that may have my personal information stored on them. These people are supporting machines that are platforms for viruses and bots that directly threaten me and innocent other people. So the ignorance and continued support of Microsoft products creates problems for innocent people and potentially problems for myself. When an on line retailer has their customer credit cards copied by bad guys I have to wonder if my credit card is among them. People who blindly support Microsoft solutions are failing to meet their responsibilities to their customers and to the customers of their customers. There are real ethical issues about responsibility in the IT industry. If we make a mistake we can cause a world of problems for people who believe that we know what we're doing and that we have the ability and interest in doing our job correctly.

I was very much an advocate of security long before I heard of Linux. I was an advocate of Microsoft until I found out about the security problems inherent in the design of their OSes. It seems that anyone in IT that has an interest in security, which should be everyone, should also have heard about these design problems in Microsoft OSes. Some of these design problems are caused by Microsoft's vision of how computers should work. Other design problems are caused Microsoft's philosophy of "embrace, extend, extinguish" toward standards. Still more are caused by Microsoft's philosophy having access to end user information. These are all problems created by Microsoft's entire approach to product design and customer relations.

I've worked with a lot of system administrators in my career. The widespread lack of interest in quality of workmanship and in personal responsibility are very disturbing. Numerous discussions here on TR reflect these attitudes in abundance. It's not just the endless Linux vs. Windows debates but also the numerous security debates. A lot of people just don't care about security. A lot of people just don't care about personal responsibility. A lot of people don't care about learning about how to do their job better.

And that's frustrating. Frustration leads to anger. Anger leads to low class behavior.

by charliespencer

I understand the source of your frustration. Let me present the other side of the coin.

Most Windows-using professionals will agree Linux is a technologically superior OS in many ways. Few of us believe the warm, fuzzy poetry from the Microsoft marketing department, or the FUD either. We don't feel any loyalty to Windows like Linux users feel toward their favored OS.

But those of us who are required to run Windows operating systems as part of our job get equally frustated when Linux proponents underestimate the factors preventing us from switching. You can't turn a corporation on a dime; you can't even turn a Mom-and-Pop shop on a silver dollar. If we can't show return on investment, we can't justify making the change. ROI includes more than the cost savings on the OS and apps, but that's all some Linux users invoke when they present their case for switching. It's much easier to justify in the server room behind the scenes, where the only ones who have to directly interact with it are the IT staff. No costly end-user retraining, testing replacement applications, hunting for third-party app support, etc.

In a perfect world, I'd twitch my nose and every one of my users would be runnning Linux with a GUI that looked -exactly- like W95 and open-source apps that looked -exactly- like their Windows counterparts. Yes, that violates the apparently sacred principle of application choice. I want to know if I have to look for another job, all the skills I've gained for supporting users apps will still be useful where I'm applying. By acting as a default industry standard, Windows and Office reduce the amount of training time before a new hire can become productive. If every company runs a different OS GUI and a different office suite, the portability of job skills goes down.

I'm not a big fan of blogs, but I'd love to see a one written by an IT professional who's company is attempting the transition from Windows to Linux, and from proprietary apps to open source, in the server room and on the end user desktops and laptops. If you know of one that is fairly current, please send me the URL. As Kim Possible says, "Please and thank you."

As to security, there's nothing I find more frustrating that people who rail about the lack of security measures taken by Windows developers and user, but never say anything negative about the criminal idiots who write malware. I deserve to be smacked for leaving my door unlocked, but not by someone who lets the burgler off the hook.

The unprofessional lack of concern about security among some sysads will be there regardless of the OS they run, but that's different issue.

by jamesrl

Perhaps when I was young, like you, I couldn't, but now I am older I am more comfortable in my skin.

I'm sure others here have their own list, but here are a few for starters:

I like to tell stories, mostly about my experience. I'm not smart enough to know when to stop because people are bored.

I'm not sure whether its my memory is going or whether I have too much going on in my head, but I can't remember reams of detail like I used to.

I am too empathetic. I can agree with both sides at times. I can speak in other people's accents. I can mimic others. This can have positives and negatives.

I can be short when I need caffeine.

I'm Canadian - something I am proud of. But we have our own perspectives, and shortcomings as well.

I'm sure others can come up with their own list of my shortcomings. I rub some people the wrong way.

James

James

by jamesrl

I tend to let my guard down in certain contexts at work - when I am in a small group with peers I sometimes react differently than when I am with my senior management or with a customers. This is not to say I am rude with anyone, at least on purpose. But familiarity will allow me to be more casual. I might say some things to Jaqui (Hi), Oz(Hi) or others that might come across as rough. And I will treat rude newcomers rudely. But in interacting with most here, and most in my business and personal life - I try to be civilised. Its the golden rule, treat others as you wish to be treated.

James

by jaqui

treat em all the same, like crap!
then no-one can accurately accuse ya of playing favorites. ;)

by jmgarvin

When I hear the typical FUD and rhetoric, I tend to make assumptions that the person is either trying to start a flamewar or is so ignorant, that is is impossible to have a civilized discussion with them.

A larger issue is that while I admit shortcomings in Linux, I also attack Windows for the total lack or security and the lack of true enterprise development.

While Linux is not always the solution, it sure is becoming a major part of the server business and is finding its way into the desktop market.

by stress junkie

... this is true. I consider my TR moniker as a personal name in this forum. My posts influence people's opinion of me. I've occassionally been embarrassed by some rash post that I've made. You may not know my street name but you know my TR name. My reputation on TR is important to me. I care what other TR members think of me, even if you can't look up my phone number and call me or even if you wouldn't recognize me on the street.

When I work with people face to face I often say pretty much the same things that I say here. I don't hesitate to ruffle a few feathers if I think that it's appropriate or if I just succumb to a fit of temper. So I act the same face to face as I do here.

by amcol

Frankly, it's epidemic. And it's always bothered me that there are far too many postings on TR that would be considered hardly acceptable on Yahoo...not because I'm thin skinned (anything but), but because the participants herein are supposed to be members of the professional IT community. I can be as ribald and profane as anyone, when and where it's appropriate. Not here, and for the reasons you say.

Good for you acting as you do...you're unfortunately among the few.

by jaqui

I actually use my real name.
I'll say exactly the same type of things to people's faces.

and for the acceptability part..
I know a few forums that actually have content fitering diabled, allowing anything to be posted.
where they set a ground rule for the forum:

anything goes

in the 4 years the one I visit has been up, there were only 5 people barred, not for what they posted, but for copyright violations they commited against merchants on the site.

by tony hopkinson

nor even lively political debate between those with diametrically opposed views.
I won't be taken for some sort of idiot though. Calling me a c**t doesn't bother me at all, taking me for one is a very different proposition.

Now if it was two weeks pay (for the flight) and we'd disagreed about something I could remember, a long week end in the US with yourself as a guide once you'd recovered would be a nice break.
LOL
Say you're not one of those chaps who spends three hours a day polishing his gun collection are you ?

by amcol

I'll be happy to show you all around our beautiful, wonderful country. My recovery time is not an issue...I practice often, generally with the national beverage of your country (Foster's).

Hang on a second...where the heck did I put my bullets?

by Member 25348569

Tony is English. Well, actually, he's more than that - he's a Tyke.

I don't think that the national beverage of Yorkshire is Fosters - especially not in the middle of an Ashes Test Series!

by tony hopkinson

Can't get pissed on it, yoo chuck up before it has an effect.
On Scrumpy Jack and malt whiskey at the moment a most felicitous combination.
Never visited the states, must admit to hankering to do so. Not a tourist type though which tends to limit my options on the commercial market.
Spot of fishing, traipsing about in the woods missing wildlife, a few beers with the god old boys and a football match (not soccer) is my idea of a fun time, not of this times sqaure amd micket mouse Bs we get offered as a package.

by oz_media

And Ford rules.

As a mechanic and former automobile sales rep. I can give you hundreds of reasons why Ford makes a better car/truck than GM, Chevy or Chrysler.

But I have heard Ford sux and Chevy rules all my life, so what? Some poeple just don't know any better, some people have forked out $20,000+ on a new Chevy, some people were told Chevy rules by thier dad, so what?

If people don't understand automotive engineering, they will be lead by other issues such as friends (peer pressure), parents, etc. to get thier opnions from. Face it, not too many people want to admit they just don't know any better.

With the Linux crowd there are many breeds, there's the ultimate nerd who's grown up clicking away in his basement, often with pasty white skin and no social skills, THIS guy was spit on for being a Linux guy in a Windows world and now gets to have his say.

There's the new Linux user, who is often feeling quite proud for leaving the mainstream of computing for something that seems a little more elite.

These people have been bashed and laughed at as 'wierdos'by the Windows community for years, now they are just being proud of thier choices. Sure, there's a lot of idiots who wil just bash anything other than thier choice but for the most part, 'Windoze' users do it too, sorry couldn't resist.

by jdclyde

although I can say I haven't seen the anti-windows comments here as strongly as the original poster has said.

And sure, some people here have even called windows users lazy. :)

The rants that get in the real radical trashing though are generally from people who have been a member of TR for an average of a week, pop in to get some shock effect and then are never heard from again.

by djameson

as a former fleet and heavy truck mechanic, I can give you a hundred reasons why chevy makes a better car/truck then ford all I'll say is TRANSMISSIONS!

but there are places where I would agree that a ford is a better fit then a chevy. ie Fleet trucks that go off road solid front axle etc. Chevy makes a better on road hauling truck.

That closely resembles my thoughts on windows.vs.BSD for the average user that doesn't know any better a windows box is better they are more common they can ask friends for help it is a better solution for them for that application, when you need something that is going to get hacked on it's entire life BSD is more secure, and a better choice.

I think that Linux... and windows people often don't see the forest for the trees there is a time and place and an application for everything, they all have their pros and cons. At some point in time I believe that we will see a large migration to Linux desktops and at that time MS will lower the price of their windows products to compete.

SA-

by oz_media

Transmissions.........and........then there's.......uhm, transmissions! :)

You did mention the front I-bar, you didn't mention the braking and suspension systems, the injection systems (mroe specifically teh injectors themselves etc.) but you are right, for street hauling, Chevy makes a DECENT transmission.

And that does only apply to trucks, the C4 is excellent in most full size cars too.

I know, CHEVY makes dirt cheap trans. that you can swap in less than a full hour. They also make the 27 dollar water pumps and cheapo crap that plasters the front of every parts flyer I get.

Now if I could only bring myself to throwing a 350 in something and actually getting to buy the cheap parts for it. ;)

by dmambo

Especially for the most egregious offenders. The fact that folks like WhyMeWorry and IT_Lobo, to actually name a couple, can be so over the top rude is directly attributable to their anonymity. If they acted out like this in the real world, they'd soon find the wrong person and get their melons plunked.

The same goes for the most flirtatious. It's like they're at a big party and afterward, they'll never see each other again. Only in these cases, it's usually a lot more fun :)

by gadgetgirl

I'm always the same. Always have a mucky mind, always flirt, (not just at parties!) always pick up double entendres, always end up with my mind in the gutter. And always enjoy it.

This applies here, at work, at home, on the boat.... it's the only thing about me that my daughter says is predictable!

And yes, I flirt at parties, and yes, I do flirt with people all over again when I see them.

Hell, I'm out to enjoy my life! ]:)

GG

by dmambo

I'll give your mind some muck.
I'll get your mind in the gutter.
I'll get you to enjoy it.
I'll give you somethng predictable.
I'll get you out to enjoy life.

See what I mean? :D

(You didn't really give me much to work with there.)

by jaqui

put it back into the sewer wher it belongs.
( besides, it's had enough fresh air )

by charliespencer

I'm actually more professional here (and in other "written" communications) than I am face-to-face. I'm compensating for the body language and other subtle nuances that are lost in text-based commo. In the "real world" I'm a complete ...; well, that wouldn't be professional, now would it?

"Palmetto" is my default nickname; I use it in lots of other places. I watch what I say as "Palmetto" since I don't want it to bite me in another forum.

by gadgetgirl

for what I think was a vote of confidence for the real me....!!! :D

DM - I'll give you something to work with all right!!

J- back in the sewer I go (wonder if King Swill is there yet.....;\)

by amcol

I thought he was from down under. That's OK, I also practice a lot with Guinness.

by Member 25348569

Very touchy, Yorkshiremen. Check out http://tinyurl.com/dwv7n

Last thing I heard, Tony was working in Lancashire and that won't any Tyke's temper any better having to drink Tetleys!

I'm not sure what his drink is so, if he comes to visit, just have some rubbing alcolhol handy.

:D

Provided free by Neil's Translation Services in order to avoid an international incident.

by gadgetgirl

Neil, just keep that last tag line on permanently, marra, I think it's brill! Nice to end a friday on a gigglefit!

:D

GG

by Member 25348569

Worst of all worlds! More tablets for the next month so no booze in September but back to work. Not so many posts with stuff to catch up on.

Maybe not, though. If I get too dizzy again (likely), then I'll "work from home" next week. Amongst other skills, I'm the infrastructure team's only script bitch but the nice thing is that the plebs think that the scripts take days to write rather than minutes. I wonder how they came to that concusion...

Lord bless the VPN and no-one can see what screens I've got open.

by amcol

To most of us, beer's beer. It's yellow (most of the time), it's got a head on it, and you really just rent it for a while. Foster's, Guinness, LaBatt's, Budweiser, Kirin, Xing Dao, Dos Equis, Heineken, Amstel...pass me a frosted mug and I'm happy, whatever's in it and no matter what country it's from.

by dmambo

Who'd have guessed? At least I know that jck wouldn't lower his standards to include "yellow" stuff. Vive Guinness!!! :D

(Sorry for the flame. Do apologies help?)

by amcol

Guilty as charged. I'm an equal opportunity imbiber. When we run low I just write on the shopping list "beer" and my wife buys whatever's on sale. That way I can just reach into the refrigerator with my eyes closed and grab something that belongs in a mug.

Although, I must admit...given a choice I do prefer a black and tan.

by charliespencer

Wearing purple leather, constantly redecorating, making catty remarks about your friend's wardrobe, worshipping Madonna.

"Not that there's anything wrong with that"
Jerry Seinfeld

by amcol

I take someone to task for not taking child pornography seriously and you call that a flame?

My comment may have been judgmental but it was in no way a flame. It's possible to express a strong opinion in strong terms without it being considered a flame.

Ethnic slurs, profanity, bathroom references, scatalogical remarks, specious stereotyping, over the top rudeness, puerile immaturity...that and more are all components of flaming. Nothing like that in what I said.

Your remark was just as judgmental as mine. Did you flame me?

by jamesrl

Flaming is the situation where the personal invective and insult has hijacked the original discussion. The Cat 5 cable discussion is a prime example. If you enter the thread at the right point, you will have no idea what started it off.

Oz will enjoy this...on alt.folklore.urban, one of the old sayings was " a spelling flame is a lame flame".

I don't consider your example to be a flame, though with a few choice additions, it could start to be.

James

by apotheon

My name is Chad Perrin. My current job title is Network Administrator II. My place of residence is Fort Collins, Colorado. I was until recently employed by both an IT consultancy as a web developer, mobile platform application developer, unix/Linux system administrator, heterogenous networks expert, and (yes) consultant, and simultaneously worked for the Wikimedia foundation as its first ever paid employee and datacenter technician. I have Microsoft and CompTIA certifications, do not (yet) have a college degree, am single (never married: don't want to pay for sex), and come up with about 130,000 Google hits by screen name and 1,000 by legal name when I do vanity searches. I vote Libertarian, am heterosexual, and will say anything to your face that I'll tell you online.

. . . just for the record.

by apotheon

I've never driven a stick-shift Ford that didn't have something wrong with first gear.

by jaqui

the name of the make.. F.O.R.D=
a) Fix Or Repair Daily
b) Found On Road Dead
c) F#cked On Race Day
d) For Old Retarded Drivers
e) F%ckin Old Rebuilt Dodge
f) Flat Out Rusted Dungheap

pick whichever one you want. ;)

by apotheon

Nothin' beats a C.H.R.Y.S.L.E.R. for engineering decrepitude, though:

Company Has Recommended You Should Learn Engine Repair

by oz_media

And there's on efor all car companies;

FIAT, Fix It Again Tony
DODGE - Doggone Old Dodgy General Electric
etc.

Every car manufacturer or mechanic will slam the other, MAC, Windows, Linux...Windows NOS, Netware, it's no different. The best products usually get the most slagging. It's usually when the competition has nothing fair to counter with, it's easier to just slam them.

by jaqui

I used the f#cking old rebuilt dodge one on a manager one time.
he was extremely pro Mustang..and bugging me about a blown transmission in an old dodge wagon I had.

" I'll replace the tranny, then send to ford for new body panels"

" why ford"
"cause it will be a F#ucking Old Rebuilt Dodge then"

for some reason, he wouldn't come near me for 3 weeks... might have something to do with the entre staff hearing this exchange. :D

by oz_media

I've never driven one that HAS a problem with first.

Do either of us have a point worthy of validating or invalidating FORD transmissions? Nope.

by charliespencer

I've had three Fords and all of them developed a leak around the top passenger corner of the windshield.

by jamesrl

Through bitter experience over the past 5 years I have learned alot about Chrsyler engines and transmissions. I've seen the crap gasket they use on the fuel rail of a high output high compression engine. They can force me to buy mid grade gas, but wont spend $5 on a re-inforced gasket. Yes thats what it cost me to buy a third party gasket, of course after labour and diagnosis time.

James

by jaqui

P.O.N.T.I.A.C.
"Poor Old Nigger Thinks It's A Cadillac"

note:
this is not an opinion about anyone, just repeating an acronym.

by oz_media

Yeah, just see how successful rice burners are in CART.

Well, at least Honda can finish a race once in a while now.

by charliespencer

The management of open wheel racing in the U.S. is the sports world's answer to the Betamax. Technologically superior, poorly marketed, and mishandled until it expired. There aren't enough cars in the field, less than half of them are competitive, and the races are too short for the ticket price. At least F-1 makes money, even if it's only got four good cars.

CART / IRL is exceeded only by the NHL in the "Sports Mismanagement Hall of Fame".

by oz_media

Makes me spew, I am not a NASCAR fan myself (, just doesn't do anything for me, that seems to be an American thing).

IRL is just a pathetic excuse for open wheel on a Nascar oval. "If y'all won't be watchin' the CART race, we'll make 'em do circles like NASCAR!"

F1 was always a fav but there's just too much money in the top teams and its not a fair crop, as you've suggested.

CART was cool, tracks were short and poor quality (temporary in many cases) but the racing was pretty cool, except they went too fast so they started adding too many chicanes to tracks.
THEN it was just too slow.

You're right, they could have done so much more.

by apotheon

IROC:
I Race On Credit
. . . or, as related to me by an Italian friend, Italian Retard Out Cruisin'.

He dug his own grave. I started calling him IROC from that day forward.

by charliespencer

U.S. ARMY - Uncle Sam Ain't Released Me Yet
U.S.M.C. - U.S Marine Corps - Uncle Sam's Misguided Children
U.S.A.F. - U.S. Air Force - U Sure Are F***ed

by raven2

Someone, maybe Ben Johnston, observed that "Bad language is the refuge of small minds."

Most of the folks I have met through the web who are Linux centric have been very nice and literate. There seems to be a certain strata of any group that has some problem expressing themselves.

The " ___________ (fill in the blank) is #%&^%@*&&!!!." comment may allow one to express frustration but does not really clarify the problem.

Yes, there are problems in any complex system, and M$ seems to have more than their share.

Logic and communications, both written and oral should be manditory in all high schools. Then maybe we all could have rational discussions with resolutions, rather than kindergarden level name calling contests. Most of which are not even very creative, that at least would provide some entertainment value.

If you do not have anything to say, do not belabor the point.

by apotheon

Since the army's always backwards anyway:

YMRA SU = Yes, My Retarded Ass Signed Up.

by peter spande

Melar - what about the other side of the coin? Why don't windows users get riled up? Am I reading the wrong threads? Do the people who have an instinct to do so just refrain because they are feeling as if they are outnumbered on these forums?

Many, many people have their livlihood tied to Windows but I rarely, if ever, see people get emotionally behind it (with the exception of the occasional footage of Ballmer at a trade show.)

by apotheon

What's there to get emotionally invested in, where Windows is concerned? It's a glossy coat of corporate paint over a rat-infested, termite-ridden slum.

by charliespencer

I find using Windows is like driving the family station wagon. It can do a lot of things at an acceptable level, but it doesn't do too many of them exceptionally well. Some find it difficult to manuever, others feel it was overpriced by the dealer. It doesn't have ABS or airbags (security features), and some accessories are inferior to after-market parts (IE, OE, defrag, etc). In addition, it's old, familiar, and the shine has long since faded. It will still get the job done, but some people like to trade up on a regular basis.

Trading it in for Linux is like getting a new car for free with a lot of the better standard features, and you can configure the engine to your personal tastes. But you can't take it back to the dealer for service, you're now in a country where they drive on the other side of the road, and the other drivers say you should use the manual transmission model (CLI), not the automatic (GUI). If you want to take advantage of many of the new features, you're going to have to learn how to do for yourself a lot of those things you expected the dealer to do. You'll also have to install many accessories that came standard on the old wagon. You're going to have to learn some new skills before you can drive it with optimum efficiency. It's faster, but you can't go to the local gas station to get more fuel (programs) for it; you have to go to the refinery. And there are one or two roads (mostly CAD) you just can't effectively drive on yet.

Linux driver honk and wave at each other. Like many automotive enthusiasts, they enjoy tinkering under the hood, can name every little part, and can give you their opinion on why some manufacturer's engines (distros) are better than others. The Windows driver just wants the car to start and doesn't know or care what the parts are called or how to adjust them. Linux drivers often give Windows drivers the finger just for driving the old station wagon, and like to blame us when some drunk driver (malware author) hits our car. Windows drivers can't figure out what we've done to earn this response. Yes it's old and clunky, but it's paid for, it gets us where we're going, and it doesn't crash anywhere near as often as it use to.

by apotheon

That's actually a pretty good analogy. Allow me to expand a little:

There are fuel stations you can go to for fuel, but they're few and far between, because it runs on alcohol (better, cheaper fuel, burns cleaner: leaner, quicker, more stable programs) rather than gasoline. You don't go to the refinery; instead, you either make your own ethanol from corn (compile software) or order it (telephone order proprietary software). Of course, one of the things you'll learn as you get familiar with it is that there's a button under the dash you can press that causes gnomes to appear and fuel up your car when you aren't looking, all for free, with most models of Linux car (software management systems like urpmi, YUM, and apt).

Some of the roads you can't drive yet are run by government agencies who have arbitrary rules about what your car needs to include, like California's smog-test requirement of having a smog pump on the car, which is irrelevant for alcohol-burning cars but a legal requirement anyway (for translation, see: FEMA requires use of IE to request aid online). Other such roads are owned by businesses that individually or collectively dominate their little niches and don't want to build roads on their property in the country where everyone's driving Linux cars.

Linux-car drivers usually don't actually blame Windows-car drivers for getting hit by drunks, though it might look that way. What really torques the Linux-car drivers is that the drunks stumble out into the parking lot, trying door handles on cars, and eventually find one that's unlocked. They get in, and see if it'll start without a key. If it does, they've found a Windows-car, and they drive THAT around. Sometimes, they bump into a Linux-car, too. Because of the better safety features, the Linux-car driver is probably not hurt, and it's harder to hit him because his car is more manueverable and has imminent impact warnings, but once in a while he gets hit anyway, and it's kind of a pain in the arse to have to deal with a bent fender on your Linux-car, especially if it scrapes on one of the tires. (Windows machines are hijacked by malware writers' scripts and used to send out spam and initiate DDOS attacks, which can affect Linux systems too.) When Linux-car drivers complain at Windows-car drivers that they should get cars with keys for the doors and ignition so that their cars won't be used in attacks on Linux-cars, Windows-car drivers usually misunderstand and think they're being blamed for the actions of the drunks.

Of course, some people really do like to blame the victim. I don't like them any more than you do, even though I drive a Linux-car.

by stress junkie

I especially liked the part where the Linux drivers give Windows drivers the finger just for driving the old car. The rest of it is also very well thought out. :-)

by charliespencer

Many Windows drivers have to drive fleet cars purchased by the company. Nobody ever got fired for buying Microsoft.

In a better world, I probably do more with Linux at work than just load it and get frustrated with my lack of time to really get to know it. The department would prefer I use my spare work time to learn SQL. That's understandable since we've got SQL apps to support and no penguins. At home I spend my computer time running a fantasy racing league with software that only comes in a Windows build. Anybody know any fantasy software (any sport) that comes from Antartica?

by wordworker

Maybe Windows zealots are just too busy making a living in the real world to bump heads against the Linux zealots who, based on the number of posts from their ranks, have a lot of free time on their hands. (Insert smart-alec remarks here about how they have time on their hands because their systems are always "up.")

by apotheon

I'm a network administrator. Most of this network is Linux. Notice my post count.

You said it, not me.

by raven2

To the great majority of users, Windows is a tool. It is not something to explore, discover, and create with.

It is something they use.

People who work with Linux want to "tinker under the hood".

To extend the analogy, how many people know where to check the oil on their car, but they know how to drive it.

Yes, I know this can be debated.

The Linux folks have passions about their systems because they have a personal stake in the knowledge of that system. Some of their selfworth is tied up in knowing the system and being able to "tune it up".

Windows users do the 8-5 thing, and the email thing, and if they are "computer people" they do the web thing. The question of are they "smarter" is moot because they do not have an interest profile that includes the, "really understanding how my computer works" line. It is not a question of "smart" it is a question of "interests".

by stress junkie

I have believed for a long time that computers should be as easy to use as a television or a telephone. That could have happened. Microsoft could have made it happen. But it didn't happen.

I believe that on the TR site most of the people who participate in discussions are in IT support or IT development. While I agree that mom and pop aren't going to look under the hood I think that everyone in IT should want to know the internals of the tools that they use for their livelihood. When I started supporting VMS many years ago one of the first things that I did was to acquire and read a book on VMS internals. The user guides and system administrator's guides are good starting points but we should go further than just learning the commands or applets. While I agree with you that the Linux folks are more likely to be people who like to look under the hood I would say that everyone in IT should be that type of person. Using your car analogy IT people are the design engineers and mechanics of the computer world.

I agree with your post as it applies to home users, secretaries, business managers, and other end users. They shouldn't be required to know any more about how computers work than I know about how a television works. Unfortunately circumstances don't allow that scheme to work. End users have to know a few things to keep themselves safe while using a computer. Most of this is caused by the combination of poor software quality and connection to the Internet. If you removed one of those problems then reasonable safety would become attainable. Learning to use a computer would largely be a matter of learning to use applications that interest you. Perhaps someday we will reach that point.

by oz_media

And purely out of curiosity(being a former Ford tech), if you have time and don't mind

Did you check FORD recalls?
What vehicle, year etc.?

by apotheon

When looking at Netcraft uptimes, keep the following note (from http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/accuracy.html#linux26) in mind:

[i]The Linux kernel switched to a higher internal timer rate at kernel version 2.5.26. Linux 2.4 used a rate of 100Hz. Linux 2.6 uses a timer at 1000Hz. (An explanation of the HZ setting in Linux.)

The above applies to Linux on 32-bit Intel-compatible systems (which is the most common case). Linux on other platforms uses different timer rates: the Alpha and Intel ia-64 ports already used 1000Hz, while the ports for sparc, m68k and other less common processors continue to use 100Hz.

The Linux TCP code only uses the low 32 bits of the timer. Due to the faster rate of the timer, the value wraps around every 49.7 days (whereas it used to wrap after 497 days). Because there are large numbers of Linux systems which have a higher uptime than this, it is no longer possible to report accurate uptimes for these systems.[/i]

The important thing to note here is that Linux uptimes aren't reported by Netcraft because Linux routinely has uptimes higher than Netcraft can determine by reading the internal timer of the system. Basically, Netcraft needs to come up with a better method for reading uptime before it can accurately report Linux uptimes.

by raven2

One issue that no one has addressed is A.D.D. -Attention Deficit Disorder. Some folks become very confused and agitated with computers.

Computer commands tend to be very logical, but they can be a fairly long series of either mouse-clicks or commands. This can be a major hurdle for some fairly intelligent people.

It has been my experience that something like the concept of "Find your pictures that you stowed in your computer" can be a real problem. Some people really find this very difficult, their focus is on the person they are sending the email to, or the message they want to create; not the "computer task". They may have done the task previously, but they do not "remember" the steps.
Their logic and focus is different from the "left brain" types that populate the geek world.

Cheat sheet can help, I don't know if there is an easy answer.

by charliespencer

When computers cost a couple grand, people didn't mind spending a hundred for "Intro to the PC" at the local tech school. Now the computers are cheap, the class costs the same or more, and the training-to-hardware cost ratio is much higher. Also, people have more experience at work, so they feel less need for formal training.

If people were trained in basic directory structure, they'd know where their pictures were, and local search tools wouldn't be needed. The Windows "My Documents" folder was an attempt at this, but too many apps (especially legacy apps) didn't adhere to the use of this folder as the default.

This discussion is closed to new replies.