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Why is it with males it seems

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by zlitocook

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More like we are harassing women and with females if they do the same thing it is just being friends? On a recent post of mine about reasions to skip work, I received some interesting posts about getting over my self. I treat everyone the same; I do not care if you are black, white, orange, male, female, gay, or what ever. I was just thinking about how people look at things and why. I have had manager and people training through the government were they do a profile study and psychology study. And I am a strong leader with low incentive to have others dislike me. I am a people person :) So why the big divide in IT for women?
I would rather work with a woman in certain areas because it has been shown that women think more interactively in certain ways then men do. But men think in terms that get the job done quickly.
I have read through the post and still wonder about the first question, why can we as males work with females in IT?

58 replies

by mjd420nova

BUT

We all have our place..
I do hardware
My sister does software
Night and day???
Some times and mostly NOT
If you have the paper to
get yourself the job,
you should be paid the same
But can you do all aspects
of the job and I know I've
had few I had trouble with
myself. Why does there have
to be a difference, for the
same reason employers tell
their employees not to
discuss their pay with the
other employees. That way
preconceived ideas can be
perpetuated with outhaving
to be justified. Few
employers will be straight
up or forth coming unless
unionized. Unions are the
females blessing and more
power to them.
who

by noyoki

It doesn't have to be male/female. My dad can barely turn on a computer. My sister does CG & GD. My mom does almost everything software (but programming, though she can read code). I do hardware, networking, and (abit of, though taking courses to learn more,) programming: specifically C++, Java and TrueBasic...

Sure, it might take me longer to move an entire rack of servers. (I'm 5'2, 98 lbs.) But I can 98% of the time garantee that, if you give me something to do, I will figure out a way to do it. This includes having to take it apart and reassemble at new location or asking for help. But it will get done. ([B]*Edit*:[/B] provided the users LEAVE ME ALONE LONG ENOUGH!!!!) By the same token, if you give me a GD project to do, again, either do it myself, or ask my sister for tips. My mother just came to me over a hardware issue (installing a socket CPU fan). Who can do everything? Certainly not you, me, or anyone else.

Well, maybe JD, but he's special. :P

by stargazerr

You are singing my song ... :D

I absolutely agree ... There is no "A MAN'S JOB" about IT

]:)

by stargazerr

is that they are not strong enough to lug around monitors .... I use that comment to my advantage and make the sales people do the heavy work ...

Being a tiny person makes my request sound convincing :D

But no ... There is no IT divide really .. Women are just as acceptable as men are ... More so, because we are more polite and helpful

]:)

by jaqui

My 5'4" tall mom put together a chain link fence, using her fingers to twist the stay wires around.

She also was the person that would get 900lb sows onto the truck to take them to auction or slaughter.

by stargazerr

I didnt say that I "cannot" do the lugging around the heavy stuff ...

I just like to see the sales people suffer :D

]:)

by jaqui

it wouldn't work on me. I know better. ]:)

it's the admin rats that should be lugging them around for you, the sales people actually do work, or no-one gets paid. :P

by stargazerr

are sitting in Oslo ...

The sales people might do work ... but they are also a pain in a lot of places ... :D ...

Sometimes they just deserve being made to crawl under tables. As for you ... I will come up with something when I need to ask you to do the heavy stuff ... Do you think "I am not feeling well " will work for you?? Or shall I come up with something a little subtler ;)

]:)

by jaqui

Why do you think I abandoned a 20 year career as a chef?
I destroyed my back from lifting and can't carry more than 25 lbs at doctors orders. :D

~wince~

ohh, I shouldn't have laughed just then.. I still haven't gotten the rib that popped out of place monday afternoon to go back into place.

by jdclyde

It just depends on WHERE your hands are when you say that! ]:)

Maybe your just not goint "it" right? :O

by rob mekel

At the starting on Math-centers, it was a clear woman?s job, all most no male's where in. Then with computers (technical) coming in it got more to a man's job. Whether this was right or wrong, don't know and don't care. Think it has to do with the old fashion thinking of techs => male, caring => female.
From there on all the studies @ tech-high's and university's started to put requirements in the starting level of the students of a higher level of math's.
So the next question is why do so few females have math, or math @ low level.
I think it is still the old question on how children are upraised. Sadly enough.

by stargazerr

what you are talking about ... there are as many females in tech as males ... As for Math ... When I went to college (IT degree) ... 57% of the class was females coming from a Math background.

]:)

by jessie

Since you don't specify your location, I can't hypothesize as to why the IT Split is different in your area than in mine. I'm one of very few women in the greater Kansas City Metropolitan area in IT. Though I'm seeing more women on helpdesks these days, it's still "a man's world" when it comes to the higher level pay jobs like Net admins, programmers, Desktop people. Not that women can't do these things, after all, I'm living proof. Ya just don't see much of it in my area.

by rob mekel

why you don't have a clue ?:) what I'm talking about, given the experience you have.
My wrong, assumptioned that figures are same all over this globe. Guess they?re not.
Well then I have to exclude the rest of the world and only imply to the NL.
Two out of ten is female in the IT business. Unless you count (IT related) call-centres as IT.
Then it would be four out of ten.
On the math/physics point, and yes I?m sorry didn?t mention physics before, three out of ten is a female graduate. So as tech-high and university do demand math/physics to an IT education then there won?t be much females going into IT. That is what we can see, figures are published every year, in the NL. It levels up a bit with education on the job as in courses and exams of special college?s and universities.
The big question in the NL is why do females (girls, as they have to chose on when they are 13, then if they?re 14, and 16/17 years old, and if made that choice you can?t go back on it) don?t take there classes in math nor physics. The thinking over here is that it has to do with there upbringing by parents, teachers and other child-up raisers.
Hope this makes clear the clue what I was babbling about.

Rob

@life is too short to not enjoy it :x

by leee

According to the CNET Networks Audience Profile Study (2004), TR's Audience Profile is Male/Female: 82% male, 18% female. The average age is 43.

So, that said, the IT industry seems to be, at least statistically, a male-dominated culture. Chalk it up to the "boys are good at math, girls are good at humanities" stereotype long held in schools. Seeing that the average age is 43, that lends itself to the presumption that some TR subscribers are 63 while some are 23.

I'm not much of a gambler but I'd bet that of the 18% female population, easily two-thirds are closer to 23 than to 63 BECAUSE of the shift in education and training demographics. I'm also willing to bet that if the title of this post - "The divide... in numbers" - grabbed you, you're more likely to be male, older and a product of math- and science-focused education. It's not that women necessarily are worse at math, but that our culture doesn't encourage it like it does for men.

And, in answer to the original question, if you're outnumbered in what traditionally is a domain dominated by the opposite sex, there's bound to be some resentment and, yes, harrassment at some point in your career. (By "harrassment" I refer to any unwanted attention, particularly on account of one's gender or appearance.)

As for a biological reason for women's and men's thought processes, I'm sure there are numerous scientific and sociological studies trying to prove or disprove this. Maybe it's tied to why there's a "gorgeous geekette" feature, but no similar pinup collection of hot IT guys (and yes, I'm sure such men exist). Unfortunately, at this juncture, there isn't much of a market. Demographics strike again.

by noyoki

> "willing to bet that if the title of this post - "The divide... in numbers" - grabbed you, you're more likely to be male, older and a product of math- and science-focused education."

Female, 25, and... well... I have always sucked at math, but <3 bio!

by jdclyde

in the discussion Jessi did at the beginning of summer.

The simple nature of the male brain can't process the complex musical patterns of the female voice, hense you get the "he never listens to me" misconception. It is really "he can't hear me"!

I really need to dig that discussion back up! :D

by stargazerr

I dont think there is a difference of Male vs Female in IT ... except that people like females more in this field because we are a more polite and humble lot .... Which translates into ... We dont tell users, They are being stupid, in their face :D

I am so sorry to hear about your back Jaqui and your ribs and anything else that isnt functioning as it should be :) ... If it helps ... I am sporting a cracked rib these days too ... Walked Ribalong into the cupboard door ...

]:)

by jaqui

My comments to Stargazerr may have been phrased in a humourous vein, but they also demonstrate that I don't look at gender when making a decision on if someone is capable or not. I learned as a child that a woman can be as capable physically, or even excede, as men. [ I can't twist the wire stays to hold the chain link of a chain link fence to the posts, without using tools, my mom can ]

My back comments, show that just because I used to move 1500 pound pieces of equipment around kitchens, doesn't mean I am still capable of it. I have a bad back from injuries which, in conjunction with a scolioid curvature in my spinal column, make me often incapable of moving even a cup of coffee. [ exactly what popped it out on monday afternoon ]

Humour in the reply doesn't always mean that the information isn't on topic. :)
Sometimes it hides the pain of memories, like being off work twice in one year with the shoulder muscles torn apart from work. [ yes, workers compentation board paid lost income back, partially ] not even being able to turn your head for 5 months out of the year is a lot of physical pain, humour helps to avoid the memory.

Humour helps me avoid being even more obnoxious than I am when I'm currently in pain, it takes my mind off the pain.

by rob mekel

The both of you are right. Did see that and agree: can't say it is a man?s or woman?s job. IT is for all sexes. And yes woman are, generally spoken, more sensitive to people's state of mind then man. But man can work on it to get the ability. So I don't think that we differ on this.
What I was trying to say, and obvious not succeeding so far, the both of you where wondering off from the issue raised.
But I think y're back again to it. :)

Rob

ps Jaqui hope y're back is okay today.

@life is too short to not enjoy it :x

by stargazerr

One of the "developing countries" ... you would think we would have even lesser women going into IT ...

]:)

by rob mekel

can rewrite my answer. But heck won't. :D
But then again had to specify my location as well.

Good point, tnx Jessie. :)

Rob

@life is too short to not enjoy it :x

by maecuff

I guess that depends on the type of IT job you're talking about. I lived in Kansas City in the mid 90's and worked in IT. The shop I worked for was close to 50/50, and just as I was leaving that job, one of the female department heads was promoted to CIO.

Another job I held in KC had two female developers and one male. Both shops were primarily IBM Midrange.

by noyoki

I cheated. I did take physics (i'm a science nut, but I HATED physics... lol)

BUT! In high school, I never took pre-calc.... I took....

Computer programming instead! :D

Lol. And I'm paying for it by taking Calc now instead, while going for a Masters in networking/security. :( (I had an undergrad degree in technical (electrical) backstage live theater, minor in CS.)

But over here in the US (or at least in NY), they actually have things like "female as a minority" grants and such. Which I don't think is really fair... But then, given my background (see above), I guess I missed the fact that girls don't apparently want to do IT. Hypocritical, sure, but it's also free money... and I need all the help I can get...

by jdclyde

[i](snickering to self at the thought of all the REALLY pissed off women that couldn't click on this fast enough to bash me!) :D[/i]

WOMEN are GREAT!
They are SMART!
They are Funny!
They can click on a keyboard just as well as any macho guy can.

So where is the problem here?

Oh yeah, attitude. MANY techs are territorial regardless of the Sex of the tech OR of the people around them. This can be taken as hostility towards women as they are generally more sensitive about when someone is a jerk towards them and don't realize they are just jerks, not jerks towards women.

Problems from the other side. Many women have had to fight to get to where they are at, making them again more sensitive to anything that could be conceived as reflecting negatively on them or their abilities.

I personnally know more male techs that are jerks than I know female techs that are. But that is because I know more male techs maybe?

Tech, like most fields, really needs to be color blind and gender blind, as do all the people that want to WORK in tech. Never let someone elses gender or race cost you a buck. Surround yourself with the best PEOPLE you can find and "get 'r done"!

by mirrormirror

Boy did you hit that on the head! I have literally had a male tech look at me and say that there is not room in the IT department for women. I have also heard other male techs referring to another tech dept staffed with mostly women as "The Girls Club".

Seems like women in tech have to prove themselves twice over what a guy does. Our technical expertise is more likely to be questioned or second guessed than a guy's technical expertise would.

However, we girls know what we are getting into when we enter this field. I have usually worked with guys and am very comfortable doing so. Guys conduct business differently than girls much like how guys are more rough and agressive at sports than girls are. There are women out there who do not get this and expect the guys to "play nice". I understand that I will usually have to, by force of will or superior technical knowledge, look my male counterparts in the eye on an issue and make them back down. Otherwise, I get no respect. Those are the rules of the game plain and simple.

by noyoki

I, too, have called tech support and had guys treat me like I couldn't tell the monitor from the printer... But it was the same with the technical side of theater too.

It was there that I learned that I had to carry 2 altmans or source-4's(which the guys could do 1-handed, and climb a metal vertical ladder. Well, I did do it (though I needed 2-hands), and found that there are quite a few acrobatics I can do on ladders that they can't which made me faster in getting things connected. (Hey, being an ex-dancer has its usefulness.))
(And for all you pervs, be you male or female, it was modern/lyrical dance clases, not exotic. :p)

Sure, saying that you know where the start button is, well, that's just asking them to go completely technical and over my head. I DO have limits. But just once, I wish someone wouldn't try to coddle me, or if they do go over my head to actually TEACH me. Guess that's not in their job description.

I think I need a voice changer.

by jdclyde

from "DL" to DemolitionWoman"? Just curious.

Tell me the truth, don't you sometimes get treated the same way by other women too, or is it only from the guys?

Stand your ground. If you know your stuff and can show it without copping an attitude, people will recognise you for what you are.

My bud married a geekette, and she doesn't take crap from anyone ( accept me! :D I can get away with it because she knows I am joking and she gives JUST as good as she gets. )

by noyoki

I am glad you followed that with the opposite. Rofl. I saw the title in my e-mail, saw it from you and thought you had gone off on vacation for abit and NZ_Justice stole your name. :)

by jdclyde

all in good fun!

I have all the respect in the world for geeketts! Wish I could find a single one in my area too! Just can't find the good ones because they are hiding in their server rooms! :O

Seriously, I remember in school who was smart and who was stupid. Why would that have changed now?

:x

by rob mekel

like those twists in lines/words :D,
they're almost devilish ]:)

Unless y're really meaning what y're implying. Then they are devilish. Will give you the benefit of doubt. But do enlighten if you think otherwise.

Rob

@life is too short to not enjoy it :x

by jdclyde

I try not to be obvious or crude, but many of the things I say/write/think can and WILL be taken in multiple ways. many on the more twisted side, but can still play innocent when called on it. "You thought WHAT? If you get your mind out of the gutter, I was talking about XYZ...." hee hee.

My rule. If anything I say can be taken more than one way, I meant the GOOD way! B-)

I would never imply to imply anything...... ]:)

by itgirli

With a title like that, I thought I was going to have to hunt you down. I'm glad you clarified. You'd have had chicks from all over the globe coming to kick the crap out of you.

by jdclyde

that it takes YOU so long to get out here to start the hunt? :D

Oh I know, it takes time to put down the knitting needles, put some shoes on and turn that "computer thing" on..... :O [i] (deeper and deeper he sinks....){/i]

Oh what fun! Especially when said to one of the smartest women I have ever met? :x

Missed you! Hope your back to stay?

by rob mekel

Would have loved to see that one: "You'd have had chicks from all over the globe coming to kick the crap out of you."

Special if they're as nice as you ITgirli! (hehehe) ]:)

Rob

@life is too short to not enjoy it :x

by noyoki

> "Seriously, I remember in school who was smart and who was stupid. Why would that have changed now?"

For starters, we no longer walk to school barefoot... in the snow... uphill both ways... lugging floppies bigger than watermelons. ]:)

*ducks and runs* :D

by noyoki

*Uses the 10 seconds to download that little javascript from another thread that flashes "Porn Freak" onto the computers of JD's most annoying users at work (CxO's included) and sets them to startup every 1 minute. At second 9.5, JD's phone starts ringing off the hook.*

]:)

by jdclyde

The visual is there and it is STAYING! ]:)

Now I can't stop the old RAT song "dance dance dance" from running round my head, but at least the visual makes it worth it! ;\
:x

by mirrormirror

I went to DemolitionWoman because I seem to always have to break down barriers or rebuild something. At my work, I am having to slowly acclimate people to a different way of doing things. I have been told how I have to be and what I have to be but I have had to break down the pre-conceived notions every time. Change is hard for some people. So, I am Demolition Woman!! Hear me roar...meow. :)

Sorry to seem to cop an attitude. After a while of being treated like a criminal for advocating best practices, I get a tad defensive. My name may change again later when I feel like I do not have to do battle everyday.

by jdclyde

(as far as I can tell)

If your talking about changing the way (l)users use the systems, that is everywhere.

People will always look for the quick and easy for THEM, regardless of if it is good for the company or not.

When I got hired in, we didn't even have email. When we got it, it was MY job to train the 100+ people how to use computers AND email.(majority didn't EVER even have a pc until email)

Right away, many decenters cast a passive resistance to this saying that they didn't have TIME to take people away from their jobs to do this and that they would show their people how to send email. Others claimed they didn't want or NEED email. The CEO stepped up and "informed" everyone that they WILL be in their assigned classes, and this email will be vital to their continued employment with the company.

5 years later, if the email is down for five minutes, my phone is ringing non-stop because people NEED to get that email out and blah blah blah.

End of long story, most employees don't CARE about security or best practices until it benifits THEM.

Don't take it personally. It is them, not you.

Now go break something. :D

by stargazerr

are really happy that finally they have a girl in their midst ;)

As for users ... They give the guys just as much headache as us girls ...

As for the name change .... Mambo wasnt too happy with me changing my name ... Lets see what he says about yours ... :D ... If he doesnt say anything, I might be the next one to adopt the name Demolition Woman :D

]:)

by jdclyde

WomanDemolition?

TheTormentor?

Dementor?

(oh, you wanted something ending in woman)

WonderWoman! (yes, you DO have to wear the little linda carter suit if you use this name!)

I think to get in the correct vein of things, we really need to get Jaqui to help out here! I am SURE that he would have some great ideas!

MistrissKitty! ohhhh, I LIKE it! ]:)

by noyoki

I don't know enough to stand ground. This is why I admin the site www.geeknoob.com. :p I'm not afraid to say "I don't know", and I'm not afraid to learn. I will however take offense if you assume I *can't* or *shouldn't* learn.

As far as with fems, not really, no. Save one consultant that I never really deal with anymore anyway... She thinks she knows everything (about everything), but when asked a question on something, she goes and calls tech support (like *I* can't do that myself!) and cuts you off as you try answer her repetitive questions. (Are you sure you have made her admin...?" "Yes, I have made her acc..." "It works on my computer...")

I have, however, gone to tech support and asked a specific question, only to get "to copy and paste, click edit... past...", at which point (generally after the 3rd time of being treated like a total newb) I start getting a headache. Lol. I'll admit to not having ANY actual tech support calls fielded by fems... Normally only accounts related.

by jdclyde

If someone is rude and interupts me I just stop talking. They finish and I still don't say anything. When they finally ask something of me, I state to them that I was making sure they were done so they wouldn't have to interupt me again.

It gets the point across real quick. I don't take crap from anybody.

Respect isn't just for the top tech in the area, it is for everyone. That means you. Try a happy song instead of a tearsong and you can/will stand your ground better! :D That is what standing your ground is about, common respect. Demand it.
[i]
Now look what you did! Here I was having fun trying to get the babes of TR all worked up and you made me get serious. GRRRR. Now I will have to go find a noob to flame! :^O (j/k)

by jdclyde

I have a GREAT joke file.

First thing it does, is it turns your computer volume up (so cool) and then a LOUD voice yells "HEY EVERYBODY! I'M LOOKING AT [B]PORNO[/B] OVER HERE! WOO HOO!"

and then on the screen it pops up "gotcha!"

Oh, I DO so love sending that to people stuck in cubicle hell! ]:)

NOTE: my phone goes right to voice mail, ALWAYS! You used up 9 of your 10 and I am after you!

by jdclyde

you got me. She gives BETTER than she gets! :O

Besides, in sex, it is the thought that counts! or was that for gift giving? Oh I get so confused sometimes! ;\

by jdclyde

I just don't run as fast as [b]I[/b] can so it extends the chase! Plus the shocked look of horror when she realizes I have "cheated" just adds to the adrinaline rush when I finally move in for the "kill".

The hunt is best with the sweet taste of fear in the air.... ;\

Got that leather paddle with the metal studs that I asked to borrow? ]:)

by rob mekel

being: X the feminin, Y the masculin and Z for Zzzzzzzz. A dirty mind for ever lasting joy, lol

But then again what's the GOOD way about a twist. ]:)

Rob

@life is too short to not enjoy it :x

Rob

by noyoki

Unless after about 3 blocks, you really want to find my collapsed form and carry me to the hospital. Lol, while I'm sure Jaqui would agree, asphyxiation is fun, there's no safety release in asthma. :p

Instead... ::crawls into the farthest depths of the the teeniest crevice she can find::

by stargazerr

No, I dont want to demolish women ... :D

And I am sure I can "Spice" up the Linda Carter suit to suit the new Wonderwoman ... ;)

]:)

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