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Women in IT workplace

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by bethchele

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I have been taking training courses for the last 5 months, getting ready for my A+ and MCSE certifications. However, I have found there to be a "male supriority" feeling in each of the classes I am taking. In fact, it's almost as if now I'm not doing this because it is something that interests me, but to prove that a female can in fact pass certifications AND know "her stuff" so to speak. What are your thoughts on this?

39 replies

by zeexmi

User Deleted has a good point here. Most women were below the men leadership in whatever workplace. But lot of women are making there own. I admire the way that a woman is making her place on the market. I'm working in IT since 3 years and always had good relationship with women and men whatever aged they are.

Women are my first sight when comes hiring personel or working with them. If I know that a woman is trying to understand and look foward in IT well they deserved to be beside any man. They distinguing themselves to be at the first level and to be interested in whatever subject of IT.

That's why i'm letting place to them.

Zeexmi
System/Network Admin

by ily

I teach several IT related classes, both for MCSE and ordenarry college classes, and my experience is that, while men generally know more when they enter the class women are often the ones that gets the higest score on the exams. This is due to an aditude held by some, by no means all, men: i know some stuff and therefore i don?t need to pay so much attention. Where many women think the oposit: I know a little so i better listen.
I have no oppinion about wether men are better or worse at the job, since its individual, but at least generelly women work harder to get the knowledge

by dotcomma

I'm an IT trainer too, and I agree very much with you.
I've another "problem" in those technical classes, at first, when I enter the room almost all men seem to think: "Huh? A woman, she knows something about this?" Of course, they never ever say this, but you don't need to be a mind reader to see that.
I'm from Germany, is this the same in other countries?
Monika

by pnmiller

I am a women and have taken IT training in both the United States and in Canada. The feeling is the same INITIALLY in the classroom. I have found that once the instruction has begun, and I participate in group discussion, my knowledge, experience and background shines through. Then the rest of the instruction goes normally and I am not treated any differently. In fact I usually find myself handing out advice during our break time

IT used to be a predominantly male domain - it still is in some areas, but not nearly as much as when I began my career.

by myron.hawryluk

You teach college classes?

Your spelling and grammar are an absolute abomination! Because of that, your contribution to the discussion topic of "Women in the IT workplace" added nothing to the argument! You're point would have been more powerful had you said nothing at all!

by dglundman

In Life it won?t matter whether you?re eligible to be discriminated against because you?re a women or for some other reason. If lose sight of your own value, if you give in to the feeling that you are the victim of discrimination, you will find some willing to follow through and prove that you are a victim. You may find them anyway.

Until there are more women working in IT, there will continue to be men willing to suggest that they can not do the job. Don?t believe them.

by dglundman

It doesn?t matter whether you are a women or a man, most of the time you will be the only person interested in suggesting you a can do anything. If you are honest with yourself you should be able to know what your abilities and limitation really are. If you want to progress in life you need to be willing to press beyond limitations and ignore the taunts of those who would like to see you fail.

by james schroer

I went to tech school for IT and there where 3 women in my class one was in the top 3 people and the other two were at the lower half. I believe they work just like men do if they want to learn then they do if not then they don't succeed. I have also worked with two women in the IT field. Again they seemed to have there good point and also there bad point. But over all what I have seen in my few years is that the men get along with the end users better than the women. Other than that they seemed to hold their share.

by sabbath

It does seem to be a numbers game where I work. We have both men and women in all degrees of knowledge, and management. It doesn't seem to bother anybody where the boys, or girls are as long as they can do the work, and take the heat. There have been no problems either way that I can see, but it does seem that there are more males getting into this field than females.

I took some classes last year, and out of about 20 people, there were only 3 females. Most of the people started taking programming classes and decided that they didn't like it, so went into IT classes and refocused their major areas of study to IT.

I enjoy working more with the females where I work because they do have a better attitude, and don't come across as Tech. Gods as some males can do. If I need to talk to a female, we can usually get the job done working as a team, instead of Tech. God to Tech. Mortal as some males can be.

by woodwurker

I am a male IT manager with 20 years of Civil and Electrical design and 8 years of IT. We have an IT staff of 6 , supporting 130 users.
My experience has led me to the conclusion that women make better I.T. people than men do. To all of the women out there, you work harder, are focused on results,get the job done on time and on budget and are customer focused. Maybe you "are" trying to prove something. But your actions speak louder than words. I am bottom line oriented! I need staff that share that objective. We are an equal opportunity employer, and the selection process boils down to who can to do the job the best.

Guys, you've got serious competition now.

by tpalmer

Women and Men are different. There is no lack of evidence and no denying these differences. When I earned my degree in Computer Science in 1980 there were women in my graduating class even then. For the most part I haven't seen that any of those whohave continued in the industry since that point in time.
IT is not immune to the Women in the work force issues, we do however tend to magnify these issues due to the critical nature of the services provided and the extreme demand on our personal lives. Women seem put up with less "BS" in general and tend to react with avoidance versus confrontation, which in IT means they move on.
I have hired and had great success with both Women and Men in IT roles. It all comes down to, if you are willing to sacrifice many long hard hours you can achieve your goals, if not you won't. As always the finial answer is "IT depends!"

by kilroy

A woman's biggest obstacle is another woman not a man. I have only worked with a few IT women however, I have worked with many women in other professions. I currently work in an industry were most employees are women. Were I currently work 34 out of37 employees are women. Women hold most management and all supervisor positions here. I have spent the past 6 plus years just being shocked and dismayed with the perpetual wars being waged by these women against each other. We have three offices andthe main office has a second floor and here is how that goes. The women upstairs and downstairs hate each other and are perpetually finding ways to attack each other and you guessed it, they hate both branches and both branches hate each other and the main office. The women upstairs all have their own office do less work and make more money then the women downstairs and you can only imagine how that ways on the minds of the women downstairs, I could write a novel on that alone. We have the highest turnover rate that I have ever seen, in fact there is no significant number two. When we hire new people and a man walks through the door for an interview this is what you will hear from the mouths of women. What's he think he's doing here this is a women's job, he must be a homosexual if he want's a women's job, we don't want him. If an attractive women walks through the door you hear Sl_t what's she think she's doing here, we need people who will work, she will just polish her finger nails and talk to the men all day.

by kilroy

As far as test scores go, women tend to follow the book and men tend to be free thinkers and take risks, so you should expect to see women score higher. Yes, that difference does show up on the job, men tend to be more creative and women follow the book. Women seem to have an edge at controlling the tempo in positions were a great deal of talking takes place, such as tech support. Women tend not to do so well with compromise, especially in management positions, they tend to get hung up on the male female thing and whip a measuring stick and set of scales and loose track of need and practicality. Ladies, the knife in your back is far more likely to have another woman's finger prints on it then a man's. As far as IT goes I just can't imaginewhy any one would question wether gender or race would actually be a factor, in fact I'm sick to death hearing about it. Yes, men are pigs and you know what, women are no bargain either.

by leonah_hankah

I am a Project Manager, putting in long hard hours, as I've seen most IT people do, but I have been constantly given the "hard" projects, the ones that weren't getting done because no-one wanted to do them, they were just "too hard". I began to getfrustrated about this and thought I was being discriminated against. It was then pointed out to me that I was given all the "Hard" projects because I got the job done. For those of you who think you're not valued enough maybe it's because you're working so hard getting the job done that people don't want to interupt you to say thanks in case they slow you down. Or maybe they're just appreciative that theree is someone in the team who will do all those "Hard" jobs and make life a little easierfor the rest of them. Believe me, there is no such thing as a hard job, just look at it from another perspective. Did I mention that I was the ONLY female project manager in the team?

by 1stladytech

I am a successful small business owner of over 13 years, and I am also female. I do not think that one has anything to do with the other. I have seen good and bad techs, both male and female. What I look for in a tech is the ability to learn, remember what you saw last time and listen to the customer. Most of the time the customer will only give you the full story of what happened after much gentle questions. What I do find interesting is that I have a better initial response from older men, and the lowest initial response from middle aged women. That is not what I expected many years ago when I started this business. I am just looking forward to the day when no one is labeled male tech or female tech, and just let "tech" carry the load. I have never let anyone else define who I am or what I can do, just learn your job and let your actions speak for themselves. Hang in there and when there are more of us in this field, especially in the hardware end of it, we will all have it easier to be taken seriously.

Vickie

by michelle_lovejoy

When I took my certification classes there was only 2 female in the class with 15 male students. But I guess I am accustomed to the 'male superiority', (I am a fan of football and always am challenge!) and know that the better person always shines in the end. After anyone realizes that you mean business they know to watch it if they challenge you again.

But in my workplace there are 9 of us. 8 are woman. My direct boss is male but my manager and VP are both female. Even though statistically will we get paid less hopefully IT will help close this GAP!

Michelle Lovejoy, MCP+I, MCSE

by techgirl20012001

I have been in the IT field for 16 years now. My career began in the USAF. When I went to Tech School, I was the only woman in the field. I guess I've learned that you need to have confidance in yourself and you will go as far as anyone else. When I beacame a technician and A+ certified, I was the only woman also. Same with MSCE training and testing. I believe woman make excellent IT personnel because as a previous comment stated, we don't "tech-god" them to death. Keep up the good work and don't loose the faith, there are other female IT professionals out there!!

D. Whicher MCSE, MCP+I, A+
Systems Administrator

by snasdeo

As an IT manager, I don't care if you are male or female. If you can do the job and do it well, then you will be compensated accordingly. If you can't do the job, then you won't be working for me.

As for 'male superiority', that is a case of low self esteem by the men. Do your job and do it well and they will respect you. If you earn it, you deserve it.

by johnm

I've been doing this for forty years, with all-male shops the first fifteen and composite shops ever since. The current shop is about equally split and shifts as interns cycle through. Women are here, have been, and will continue to be. Let's getused to it. I had a contractor wiring crew come in today that is all female. Told them to have one of the guys in the adjacent office check before they pulled wire through the cable tray in the mens' restroom, but, other than that, they didn't need any accommodation and did the work well.

by johnm

On the other hand, this school's tech programs have been advertising for more female students under a banner which proclaims Women in Non-Traditional Settings (WINS). The "non-traditional" programs included computer support and computer programmer. Non-traditional? I wonder what Grace Hopper and Lady Ada would say about that!

by frank krebs

Years ago, when I was in the Air Force, I was a crew chief, and refused to have a young lady work as my assistance, because of a few bad experiences I'd had with other women. Boy what a mistake, she was worth any two other assistant crew chiefs I had. I decided after that not to prejudge women, or anyone for that matter, before I took a good look at what they can do. 25 years later, I still look at the individual's desire to do the job and their skill set, not what sex, race, religion, etc. they are. I've worked with some very sharp IT women and men, and some I wouldn't give the time of day to.

by mis guy

I have been in IT many years - the women really give the men some fierce competition. When I need a new contract programmer, there are always fewer women which is disappointing. The women that work for me are tops.

by f1services

I have been working in I.T. for 5 years. In my last position I was hired as Assistant Network Engineer responsible for 10 NT servers and over 500 users. However, upon starting the job it was evident that I was viewed as the "admin assistant" for the I.T. department, rather than technical personnel and a peer network admin. This was mainly due to the director of the department who was "old boys club" to the extreme! Unfortunately, it was only my second career opportunity in the I.T. profession and it left a very bad taste in my mouth!

by zeexmi

I agree with you that you are not the admin assist. You got YOUR job to do and if problems occur users will see you but they shouldn't see you as an assistant. I should had that your boss wouldn't have hire you if he was "old boys club". Just let him go and be proud of yourself because lot of men like to rule all rights.
Keep faith in you.

by epepke

who was one of the leaders of the Scientific Visualization movement in the 1980's. Or Maria Theresa-Rhyne (if I have that right, which I should, because I was on a panel she hosted.)

There's a lot of well meaning nonsense going around at the hands of acaemic groups like the University Women and ACM's Committee on Women trying to get more women into computing. These people seem to be unable to let go of the superstition that all women are just like Molly Bloom, only with a plus sign in front and a lot of postmodern claptrap about Women's Special Ways of Knowing.

by coolwata_2000

Hi,

I am a woman myself in the IT world, and I do agree with you on this to a certain degree. It's almost a similar concept to women in the armed forces, who constantly have to "prove" her worth by working above and beyond the call of duty in her male-dominated world.

As for me, I took a few MCSE training classes and I was indeed the only female there, but that didn't bother me one bit. I think with the way technology and the Internet is evolving so quickly these days, along with the demise of dot coms, and such..this whole male vs. female role in the workplace is not very important anymore. Everyone has to make ends meet with the best resources they have at their disposal, whether it be from a male or a female. I have seen so many people I know get laid off, left and right, and it's a very scary feeling. No longer am I challenged by the fact that I may be the only female in my team, but that I am having to work harder to meet the new challenges of unknown territory we call the "Web".

by shanghai sam

Things are changing, but I agree that some women are much harder on other women, mostly because of what they had to go through to get where they got-just as other minorities can make it difficult instead of easier for each other to get ahead. When you are the first or only woman, you have to be better at what you do, thicker-skinned and often shamelessly self-promote yourself at every opportunity. It can get to be ridiculous at times.

I am a female instuctor in an information technology worker retraining program. I also use a wheelchair. Students are visibly shocked the first time they see me. I have to prove my technical skills immediately by assembling a working computer from a pile of parts on my desk during the first half-hour of myfirst lecture. None of the male instructors has to do anything remotely like this, students accept them as experts in the field. I have learned to enjoy showing off instead of resenting it, because it gets me both attention and respect. I am teaching them about something they will have to use on the job far more than their technological skills.

Since everyone enrolled in the program has just been laid off from another job, we concentrate on learning transferrable skills along with the newtechnology. With all the recent lay-offs in the technical field, the employees, male or female, who gain a broader background become more confident of marketing their abilities than specialists who can just do one thing. The students who have already had to prove their abilities and strengths have a distinct advantage in getting and keeping IT jobs.

by tss

bethchele: I've been in Internet development for 7 years and have fortunately never encountered any male superiority. I'd like to emphasize that I am an Asian woman working in a supposedly male-dominated industry and culture. I don't think you should concern yourself about it if you know you can do the job. Not only will acceptance come, you'd be surprised how leadership does not have a gender! However, do make sure you are getting paid what you're worth. I think there's still some gender bias there.

by shanghai sam

It has been my observation that men do more chest-thumping than women. Such posturing and power games appear to be a basic part of how men establish a social pecking order within a particular group.

In an industry as individualistic as IT, such behavior often has direct tangible rewards. As a friend of mine puts it, "arrogant and cocky is worth an extra ten dollars an hour." In my experience, that assessment is essentially accurate.

Whether a woman can successfully adopt such masculinechest-thumping behaviors is a question I leave to individual women. What I would suggest, however, is that all women recognize that such "male superiority" attitudes are part of a larger power game that is an intrinsic part of human society. Whether one is male or female, that power game has a greater influence on how other percieves one's individual skill level than actual technical accomplishments; as one moves into the ranks of management, success as a manager and as a leader will often bemeasured by the ability to dominate a group.

If you look at the behavior of your male colleagues in this larger context, it is quite probable you will find ways within your own personality to play the power game and win. Do that, and those attitudes won't be nearly as bothersome.

Cordially,

Peter Nayland Kust
TEKMedia Communications
pkust@tekmedia.com
http://www.tekmedia.com

by loup2

I hope the title got your attention. I work in an environment where our IT Tech group is roughly 50-50 in the gender area. We have good and not so good techs, unrelated to the gender. My suggestion is to focus on what you want to get out of the training and life and not worry about the male attitude; perceived or otherwise. It will only get in the way of what you want to accomplish. I believe you have males that think they are superior as you have females with the same attitude. Do what you need to move in the direction you want to go. By the way I'm a male techie and my reporting mananger is a female, which I have no problem with at all. I treat all my managers the same, question what I don't understand, expect the support when I need it,and back them 100% when in understanding.

by _ladyhawk_2

Loup2:
I appreciate what you have written. It applies to so many situations in everyday life. The important thing for women AND men to remember, is to stay focussed on their original goals.
Becoming focused on the negative incident or attitude will inhibit you professionally as well as socially. It will wear away at your self confidence and eat away at your desire to perform well.
Do the best you can do in all things that you do. Admit when you need help and then act upon it.
It isn't a case of gender, its a case of ego.

by e-fellow

THESE THINGS WILL ALWAYS HAPPEN. IF A MAN GOES TO A SEWING CLASS AND HE IS THE ONLY ONE THEN HE WILL FEEL HE IS BEING TREATED BADLY BECAUSE HE DOESNT KNOW ALL THE LINGO OR JUST THE FACT THAT HE "LOOKS" OUT OF PLACE. BUT IF MORE AND MORE MEN GET IN TO SEWING THEN IT WILL GET SLOWLY, EVER SO SLOWLY BETTER FOR MEN. MEN HAVE DOMINATED TECH. JOBS AND WE ALL KNOW IT, BUT AS MORE AND MORE WOMEN PUSH THROUGH THE OBVIOUS CRAP INVOLVED THEN ONE DAY WOMEN COULD SURELY DOMINATE THIS FIELD, JUST AS THEY DOMINATE SEWING TODAY. I AM BEING SINCERE HERE.

by nicknielsen

Just as with a computer, the appearance is not important -- it the performance. If you are knowledgeable and capable, you will go far in the right company. The good ol' boys (or girls) who chase co-workers away for any reason other than poor performance are only hurting their employers.

by kilroy

Women have either an extreme desire or tendency to huddle together ( in a hive ) and this sends several messages. Is there something inappropriate going on? Often women will cover for each other, correcting mistakes and covering up short cummins andcovering in general. This is at least attempted to be done in a Vail of secrecy with in the hive. It has the air of contempt and it gives appearance of a conspiracy or foul play, even when it is completely innocent. When men have the cross hairs on their forehead it's very hard to over look the hive. The hive also gives the appearance of " how many women does it take to change a light bulb? " The hive also has some very serious draw backs for the bees. Most if not all hives have a queen bee. The queen bee is sly and in due time the hive starts working for the interests of the queen bee and this is often at the expense of the other bees. It's also a good way to weed out perspective future queen bees. I could write several novels on this and my experiences and observations of working with women. Let me just say that women can be and certainly in ever increasing numbers are just as cruel, greedy, underhanded, arrogant, untrustworthy, dominating, manipulating and controlling as men. All the things you claim to despise about men have become the tools of your trade, as women become just like men, so do they partake in the evil that men do. You've come a long way baby but the grass isn't greener it's just the way we mow the lawn. As far as women in IT, once again you will find that other women will hold you back far more then men. The reason why more women are not in IT is that they simply just don't like IT and not the lack of opportunity, which happen to be in extreme abundance for women and minorities. Blend don't huddle in the hive. I have noticed women and minorities separate themselves far more then white men disassociate themselves from them.

by cheek

For 2 years I was the first and only woman in my IT dept. Then I got promoted because I crushed one of my male coworkers like a bug. The fact is, I was younger and smarter. He still hates me to this day. I choose as my replacement, another woman whoalthough much older then me, is extremely intelligent and is already doing the same thing to the same guy. So yes women plot and scheme, but we also do a good job. This is all just a mandatory part of life.

by kilroy

Ganging up on someone is brutish however, it is absolutely not a mandatory part of life. The only thing that it proves is the extreme cowardice of those that do it. I think your post was simply to be belligerent and is a complete fabrication. You would be crocodile stew if you pulled if you pulled that stunt on a real man, so you will just have to pretend that you did it in that man hater mind of yours. Shame, shame on you.

by rob k.

But if a man were to do the same thing he would be considered a sexist.

Rob k

by dksj

Gender, race, certifications, and degrees aside, those who become successful at IT are those who have functional skills and can provide solutions, even when no clear path is in sight. Technology is a tool that can used to increase productivity (and thereby wealth or profit), open up a new market or marketing channel, or can be a tremendous budget drain when not applied properly. The IT field requires creativity, persistance, risk management, and genuine interest. It is not for the light of heart, or the part timer. Dont worry, in today's job market, if you are good then you will succeed. There will always be those who like to huff and puff, but the ones who deliver the goods are the ones who get paid.

by kilroy

Perhaps women got away with that in the 20th century however, in the 21st century no one can get away with it. Inhumane is gender less.

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