A religious discussion

I'm really in deep doodoo now.

Please, tell Him that the Devil made me do it.

See my post at

https://www.techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=8&threadID=193156&messageID=1998570

which was in progress at the time you were posting yours.

creates merely for the purpose of having a supply of immortal slavish devotees?

Not guilty!!!

Wonderful stuff.

How deep is the grave you wind up in?

they usually use emoicons to soften the blow of what they wrote as there is no other way for a person to judge the intent or tone of your post.

You even had me wondering when I read it...... Easy to understand how the person it was aimed at could take that post wrong. If someone wrote that to you out of the blue, how would you have taken it?

Neil, while he takes global cooling/warming/shifts a tad seriously (like OZ) and is also not a christian, he is still a sod with a excellent since of humor (even if it is a tad on the dry british side). :0

Just a fyi. ;\

I still don't see anything wrong with my reply. Saying that looking forward to worshipping after one leaves this life is shallow, certainly looks a lot deeper than a grave to me.
It struck me really funny!

it was obvious it was taken as an attack. I pointed out why it was.

A few ;\ and :p go a long way when your joking around with someone.

by the way, referred to a a god who would create beings whose sole purpose seems to be to worship him for eternity. I can se why [b]he[/b] would be laughing.

You can, of course, post in any way you see fit. If I misread the humourous intent of your post - and you say I did - then it's not only my fault that we can't communicate properly. Given your username, you do not get to tell me afterwards that I got your meaning wrong.

"How deep is the grave you wind up in?" Oh, I see it now. ROTFLMFAOUIPTMN.

How do I turn [irony] off once I've turned it on?

Ah, sod it. I'm going fishing.

for trying to explain. You are just so much nicer than me. ;\

As for the global warming issue, I let slip something closer to my true stance just a few posts from here in one of my answers to UncleRob. You might be surprised.

The only topics that I've really got stresed on in the whole of my time at TR are Intelligent Design and idiots who believe that Active Directory is anything but a crock of crap. The latter, though, I merely shout at as there's no point in wasting pixels on 'em.

The sun is shining and it's Saturday so I'm going fishing. First time that we've taken the boat out this year as Spring has been so late. Hopefully, a fish supper.

Neil :D

Please note my disclaimer:

"The opinions and suggestions expressed herein are not necessarily those of the author, but are presented to encourage debate and discussion."

When you have been around this website for a while, you will discover that I start religious discussions NOT to present my personal views, but to stimulate discussion.

I haven't managed to convert Neil to any form of religion yet, but I have sure got him hooked on discussing the subject. :x

I respect Neil's views more than those of many Christians who quote the "faith" thing because they cannot rationally defend the many conundrums and apparent contradictions or absurdities in Christian doctrine.

You have referred to a tangible personal experience. I have heard of many other such experiences, and I accept your experience as real.

In my 65 years I have never actually met a person who has demonstrated a dramatic reversal of character as a result of a Christian religious experience.

I have however known a man who had such an experience after an encounter with an Indian guru or avatar, Sai Baba.

I have had a healing experience by this same Indian teacher.

So to answer your question: "do you believe Jesus is alive?" I would say "I wouldn't have a clue."

But if you had asked me: "Do you believe the Holy Spirit is active in the world today?" I would answer: "Yes, very likely, but this power is not available exclusively to Christians."

Thanks for the info. I probably won't explore it further at this time.

Well do I remember reading about Swami Vivekanda's participation in the "Parliament of Religions."

Correct me if I am wrong, but from memory he played an important role in introducing Indian philosophy to America, and hence the Western world in general.

Is actually an oncoming express train about to run you over and leave you dead on the tracks it's running on. :^0

There is no light at the end of the tunnel just the approaching Death of us all. :p

By the way I have yet to find any Logical Argument against the early 20th Century sediment that [b]Life is a Sexually Transmitted Disease that has an Extremely Bad Prognosis![/b] But I'm open to suggestions if you have any that can in any way refute that statement. :D

Col ]:)

You where exposed to the [b]Industrial Strength Nuns.[/b] :D

They tried to knock some religion into my mother many years ago and failed miserably but I suppose she was the exception to the rule. :^0

But like all of Gibran's work it's a hard read although it's much better than his latter works once he emigrated to the US and started writing in the English Style like in the Prophet. Those while good where always way too short for my personal taste. Things like the Children one should have been much longer as it has some truly deep meanings which many still fail to grasp properly. ;)

I hope you enjoy the read at least it's an easy one as when I originally read it it was in the book and was [b]Heavy Reading[/b] as it was almost impossible to hold the book up as you moved down the page. The entire thing was just way too heavy to hold. ;\

OK when you finish the above try this one and see if you can tell me what's wrong with it. This is the Poem that Gibran got Excommunicated for and is called [b]Madame Rose Hanie.[/b] good thing that It's on the web as I couldn't bear to type out the 300 million words. :p

[i]Miserable is the man who loves a woman and takes her for a wife, pouring at her feet the sweat of his skin and the blood of his body and the life of his heart, and placing in her hands the fruit of his toil and the revenue of hi s diligence; for when he slowly wakes up, he finds that the heart, which he endeavoured to buy, is given freely and in sincerity to another man for the enjoyment of its hidden secrets and deepest love. Miserable is the woman who arises from the inattenti veness and restlessness of youth and finds herself in the home of a man showering her with his glittering gold and precious gifts and according her all the honors and grace of lavish entertainment but unable to satisfy her soul with the heavenly wine which God pours from the eyes of a man into the heart of a woman.
I knew Rashid Bey Namaan since I was a youngster; he was a Lebanese, born and reared in the City of Beyrouth. Being a member of an old and rich family which preserved the tradition and glory of his ancestry, Rashid was fond of citing incidents that dealt mainly with the nobility of his forefathers. In his routine life he followed their beliefs and customs which, at that time, prevailed in the Middle East.
Rashid Bey Namaan was generous and good-hearted, but like many of the Syrians, looked only at the superficial things instead of reality. He never hearkened to the dictates of his heart, but busied himself in obeying the voices of his environment. H e amused himself with shimmering objects that blinded his eyes and heart to life's secrets; his soul was diverted away from an understanding of the law of nature, and to a temporary self-gratification. He was one of those men who hastened to confess thei r love or disgust to the people, then regretted their impulsiveness when it was too late for recall. And then shame and ridicule befell them, instead of pardon or sanction.
These are the characteristics that prompted Rashid Bey Namaan to marry Rose Hanie far before her soul emraced his soul in the shadow of the true love that makes union a paradise.
After a few years of absence, I returned to the City of Beyrouth. As I went to visit Rashid Bey Namaan, I found him pale and thin. On his face one could see the spectre of bitter disappointment; his sorrowful eyes bespoke his crushed heart and melan choly soul. I was curious to find the cause for his miserable plight; however, I did not hesitate to ask for explanation and said, "What became of you, Rashid? Where is the radiant smile and the happy countenance that accompanied you since childhood? H as death taken away from you a dear friend? Or have the black nights stolen from you the gold you have amassed during the white days? In the name of friendship, tell me what is causing this sadness of heart and weakness of body?"
He looked at me ruefully, as if I had revived to him some secluded images of beautiful days. With a distressed and faltering voice he responded, "When a person loses a friend, he consoles himself with the many other friends about him, and if he loses his gold, he meditates for a while and casts misfortune from his mind, especially when he finds himself healthy and still laden with ambition. But when a man loses the ease of his heart, where can he find comfort, and with what can he replace it? What mind can master it? When death strikes close by, you will suffer. But when the day and the night pass, you will feel the smooth touch of the soft fingers of Life; then you will smile and rejoice.
"Destiny comes suddenly, bringing concern; she stares at you with horrible eyes and clutches you at the throat with sharp fingers and hurls you to the ground and tramples upon you with ironclad feet; then she laughs and walks away, but later regrets h er actions and asks you through good fortune to forgive her. She stretches her silky hand and lifts you high and sings to you the Song of Hope and causes you to lose your cares. She creates in you a new zest for confidence and ambition. If your lot in life is a beautiful bird that you love dearly, you gladly feed to him the seeds of your inner self, and make your heart his cage and your soul his nest. But while you are affectionately admiring him and looking upon him with the eyes of love, he escapes from your hands and flies very high; then he descends and enters into another cage and never comes back to you. What can you do? Where can you find patience and condolence? How can you revive your hopes and dreams? What power can still your turbulent heart?"
Having uttered these words with a choking voice and suffering spirit, Rashid Bey Namaan stood shaking like a reed between the north and south wind. He extended his hands as if to grasp something with his bent fingers and destroy it. His wrinkled fac e was livid, his eyes grew larger as he stared a few moments, and it seemed to him as if he saw a demon appearing from nonexistence to take him away; then he fixed his eyes on mine and his appearance suddenly changed; his anger was converted into keen suf fering and distress, and he cried out saying, "It is the woman whom I rescued from between the deathly paws of poverty; I opened my coffers to her and made her envied by all women for the beautiful raiment and precious gems and magnificent carriages drawn by spirited horses; the woman whom my heart has loved and at whose feet I poured affection; the woman, to whom I was a true friend, sincere companion and a faithful husband; The woman who betrayed me and departed me for another man to share with him dest itution and partake his evil bread, kneaded with shame and mixed with disgrace. The woman I loved; the beautiful bird whom I fed, and to whom I made my heart a cage and my soul a nest, has escaped from my hands and entered into another cage; that pure an gel, who resided in the paradise of my affection and love, now appears to me as a horrible demon, descended into the darkness to suffer for her sin and cause me to suffer on earth for her crime."
He hid his face with his hands as if wanting to protect himself from himself, and became silent for a moment. Then he sighed and said, "This is all I can tell you; please do not ask anything further. Do not make a crying voice of my calamity, but le t it rather be mute misfortune; perhaps it will grow in silence and deaden me away so that I may rest at last with peace."
I rose with tears in my eyes and mercy in my heart, and silently bade him goodbye; my words had no power to console his wounded heart, and my knowledge had no torch to illuminate his gloomy self.

few days thereafter I met Madame Rose Hanie for the first time, in a poor hovel, surrounded by flowers and trees. She had heard of me through Rashid Bey Namaan, the man whose heart she had crushed and stamped upon and left under the terrible hoofs of Life. As I looked at her beautiful bright eyes, and heard her sincere voice, I said to myself, "Can this be the sordid woman? Can this clear face hide an ugly soul and a criminal heart? Is this the unfaithful wife? Is this the woman of whom I have spoken evil and imagined as a serpent disguised in the form of a beautiful bird?" Then I whispered again to myself saying, "Is it this beautiful face that made Rashid Bey Namaan miserable? Haven't we heard that obvious beauty is the cause of many hidden distresses and deep suffering? Is not the beautiful moon, that inspires the poets, the same moon that angers the silence of the sea with a terrible roar?"
As we seated ourselves, Madame Rose Hanie seemed to have heard and read my thoughts and wanted not to prolong my doubts. She leaned her beautiful head upon her hands and with a voice sweeter than the sound of the lyre, she said, "I have never met you, but I heard the echoes of your thoughts and dreams from the mouths of the people, and they convinced me that you are merciful and have understanding for the oppressed woman - the woman whose heart's secrets you have discovered and whose affections you have known. Allow me to reveal to you the full contents of my heart so you may know that Rose Hanie never was an unfaithful woman.
"I was scarcely eighteen years of age when fate led me to Rashid Bey Namaan, who was then forty years old. He fell in love with me, according to what the people say, and took me for a wife and put me in his magnificent home, placing at my disposal clothes and precious gems. He exhibited me as a strange rarity at the homes of his friends and family; he smiled with triumph when he saw his contemporaries looking at me with surprise and admiration; he lifted his chin high with pride when he heard the ladies speak of me with praise and affection. But never could he hear the whispers, 'Is this the wife of Rashid Bey Namaan, or his adopted daughter?' And another one commenting, 'If he had married at the proper age, his first born would have been older than Rose Hanie.'
"All that happened before my life had awakened from the deep swoon of youth, and before God inflamed my heart with the torch of love, and before the growth of the seeds of my affections. Yes, all this transpired during the time when I believed that real happiness came through beautiful clothes and magnificent mansions. When I woke up from the slumber of childhood, I felt the flames of sacred fire burning in my heart, and a spiritual hunger gnawing at my soul, making it suffer. When I opened my eyes, I found my wings moving to the right and left, trying to ascend into the spacious firmament of love, but shivering and dropping under the gusts of the shackles of laws that bound my body to a man before I knew the true meaning of that law. I felt all these things and knew that a woman's happiness does not come through man's glory and honour, nor through his generosity and affection, but through love that unites both of their hearts and affections, making them one member of life's body and one word upon the lips of God. When Truth showed herself to me, I found myself imprisoned by law in the mansion of Rashid Bey Namaan, like a thief stealing his bread and hiding in the dark and friendly corners of the night. I knew that every hour spent with him was a terrible lie written upon my forehead with letters of fire before heaven and earth. I could not give him my love and affection in reward for his generosity and sincerity. I tried in vain to love him, but love is a power that makes our hearts, yet our hearts cannot make that power. I prayed and prayed in the silence of the night before God to create in the depths of my heart a spiritual attachment that would carry me closer to the man who had been chosen for me as a companion through life.
"My prayers were not granted, because Love descends upon our souls by the will of God and not by the demand or the plea of the individual. Thus I remained for two years in the home of that man, envying the birds of the field their freedom while my friends envied me my painful chains of gold. I was like a woman who is torn from her only child; like a lamenting heart, existing without attachment; like an innocent victim of the severity of human law. I was close to death from spiritual thirst and hunger.
"One dark day, as I looked behind the heavy skies, I saw a gentle light pouring from the eyes of a man who was walking forlornly on the path of life; I closed my eyes to that light and said to myself, 'Oh, my soul, darkness of the grave is thy lot, do not be greedy for the light.' Then I heard a beautiful melody from heaven that revived my wounded heart with its purity, but I closed my ears and said, 'Oh, my soul, the cry of the abyss is thy lot, do not be greedy for heavenly songs.' I closed my eyes again so I could not see, and shut my ears so I could not hear, but my closed eyes still saw that gentle light, and my ears still heard that divine sound. I was frightened for the first time and felt like the beggar who found a precious jewel near the Emir's palace and could not pick it up on account of fear, or leave it because of poverty. I cried - a cry of a thirsty soul who sees a brook surrounded by wild beasts, and falls upon the ground waiting and watching fearfully."
Then she turned her eyes away from me as if she remembered the past that made her ashamed to face me, but she continued, "Those people who go to back to eternity before they taste the sweetness of real life are unable to understand the meaning of a woman's suffering. Especially when she devotes her soul to a man she loves by the will of God, and her body to another whom she caresses by the enforcement of earthly law. It is a tragedy written with the blood of the woman's blood and tears which the man reads with ridicule because he cannot understand it; yet, if he does understand, his laughter will turn into scorn and blasphemy that act like fire upon her heart. It is a drama enacted by the black nights upon the stage of a woman's soul, whose body is tied up into a man, known to her as husband, ere she perceives God's meaning of marriage. She finds her soul hovering about the man whom she adores by all agencies of pure and true love and beauty. It is a terrible agony that began with the existence of weakness in a woman and the commencement of strength in a man. It will not end unless the days of slavery and superiority of the strong over the weak are abolished. It is a horrible war between the corrupt law of humanity and the sacred affections and holy purpose of the heart. In such a battlefield I was lying yesterday, but I gathered the remnants of my strength, and unchained my irons of cowardice, and untied my wings from the swaddles of weakness and arose into the spacious sky of love and freedom. "Today I am one with the man I love; he and I sprang out as one torch from the hand of God before the beginning of the world. There is no power under the sun that can take my happiness from me, because it emanated from two embraced spirits, engulfed by understanding, radiated by Love, and protected by heaven."
She looked at me as if she wanted to penetrate my heart with her eyes in order to to discover the impression of her words upon me, and to hear the echo of her voice from within me; but I remained silent and she continued. Her voice was full of bitterness of memory and sweetness of sincerity and freedom when she said, "The people will tell you that Rose Hanie is an heretic and unfaithful woman who followed her desires by leaving the man who elated her into him and made her the elegance of his home. They will tell you that she is an adulteress and prostitute who destroyed with her filthy hands the wreath of a sacred marriage and replaced it with a besmirched union woven of the thorns of hell. She took off the garment of virtue and put on the cloak of sin and disgrace. They will tell you more than that, because the ghosts of their fathers are still living in their bodies. They are like the deserted caves of the mountains that echo voices whose meanings are not understood. They neither understand the law of God, nor comprehend the true intent of veritable religion, nor distinguish between a sinner and an innocent. They look only at the surface of objects without knowing their secrets. They pass their verdicts with ignorance, and judge with blindness, making the criminal and the innocent, the good and the bad, equal. Woe to those who prosecute and judge the people. . . .
"In God's eyes I was unfaithful and an adulteress only while at the home of Rashid Bey Namaan, because he made me his wife according to the customs and traditions and by the force of haste, before heaven had made him mine in conformity with the spiritual law of Love and Affection. I was a sinner in the eyes of God and myself when I ate his bread and offered him my body in reward for his generosity. Now I am pure and clean because the law of Love has freed me and made me honourable and faithful. I ceased selling my body for shelter and my days for clothes. Yes, I was an adulteress and a criminal when the people viewed me as the most honourable and faithful wife; today I am pure and noble in spirit, but in their opinion I am polluted, for they judge the soul by the outcome of the body and measure the spirit by the standard of matter."
Then she looked through the window and pointed out with her right hand toward the city as if she had seen the ghost of corruption and the shadow of shame among its magnificent buildings. She said pityingly, "Look at those majestic mansions and sublime palaces where hypocrisy resides; in those edifices and between their beautifully decorated walls resides Treason beside Putridity; under the ceiling painted with melted gold lives Falsehood beside Pretension. Notice those gorgeous homes that represent happiness, glory and domination; they are naught but caverns of misery and distress. They are plastered graves in which Treason of the weak woman hides behind her kohled eyes and crimsoned lips; in their corners selfishness exists, and the animality of man through his gold and silver rules supreme.
"If those high and impregnable buildings scented the odor of hatred, deceit and corruption, they would have cracked and fallen. The poor villager looks upon those residences with tearful eyes, but when he finds that the hearts of the occupants are empty of that pure love that exists in the heart of his wife and fills its domain, he will smile and go back to his fields contented."
And then she took hold of my hand and led me to the side of the window and said, "Come, I will show you the unveiled secrets of those people whose path I refused to follow. Look at that palace with giant columns. IN it lives a rich man who inherited his gold from his father. After having led a life of filth and putrefaction, he married a woman about whom he knew nothing except that her father was one of the Sultan's dignitaries. As soon as the wedding trip was over he became disgusted and commenced associations with women who sell their bodies for pieces of silver. His wife was left alone in that palace like an empty bottle left by a drunkard. She cried and suffered for the first time; then she realized that her tears were more precious than her degenerate husband. Now she is busying herself in the love and devotion of a young man upon whom she showers her joyous hours, and into whose heart she pours her sincere love and affection.
"Let me take you now to that gorgeous home surrounded by beautiful gardens. It is the home of a man who comes from a noble family which ruled the country for many generations, but whose standards, wealth, and prestige have declined due to their indulgence in mad spending and slothfulness. A few years ago this man married an ugly but rich woman. After he acquired her fortune, he ignored her completely and commenced devoting himself to an attractive young woman. His wife today is devoting her time to curling her hair, painting her lips and perfuming her body. She wears the most expensive clothes and hopes that some young man will smile and come to visit her, but it is all in vain, for she cannot succeed except in receiving a smile from her ugly self in the mirror.
"Observe that big manor, encircled with the marble statuary; it is the home of a beautiful woman who posseses strange character. When her first husband died, she inherited all his money and estate; then she selected a man with a weak mind and feeble body and became his wife to protect herself from the evil tongues, and to use him as a shield for her abominations. She is now among her admirers like a bee that sucks the sweetest and most delicious flowers.
That beautiful home next to it was built by the greatest architect in the province; it belongs to a greedy and substantial man who devotes all of his time to amassing gold and grinding the faces of the poor. He has a wife of supernatural beauty, bodily and spiritually, but she is like the rest, a victim of early marriage. Her father committed a crime by giving her away to a man before she attained understanding age, placing on her neck the heavy yoke of corrupt marriage. She is thin and pale now, and cannot find an outlet for her imprisoned affection. She is sinking slowly and craving for death to free her from the mesh of slavery and deliver her from a man who spends his life gathering gold and cursing the hour he married a barren woman who could not bring him a child to carry on his name and inherit his money. In that home among the orchards lives an ideal poet; he married an ignorant woman who ridicules his works because she cannot understand them, and laughs at his conduct because she cannot adjust herself to his sublime way of life. That poet found freedom from despair in his love for a married woman who appreciates his intelligence and inspires him by kindling in his heart the torch of affections, and revealing to him the most beautiful and eternal sayings by means of her charm and beauty."
Silence prevailed for a few moments, and Madame Hanie seated herself on a sofa by the window as if her soul were tired of roaming those quarters. Then she slowly continued, "These are the residences in which I refused to live; these are the graves in which I, too, was spiritually buried. These people from whom I have freed myself are the ones who become attracted by the body and repelled by the spirit, and who know naught of Love and Beauty. The only mediator between them and God is God's pity for their ignorance of the law of God. I cannot judge, for I was one of them, but I sympathize with all my heart. I do not hate them, but I hate their surrender to weakness and falsehood. I have said all these things to show you the reality of the people from whom I have escaped against their will. I was trying to explain to you the life of persons who speak every evil against me because I have lost their friendship and finally gained my own. I emerged from their dark dungeon and directed my eyes towards the light where sincerity, truth and justice prevail. They have exiled me now from their society and I am pleased, because humanity does not exile except the one whose noble spirit rebels against despotism and oppression. He who does not prefer exile to slavery is not free by any measure of freedom, truth and duty.
"Yesterday I was like a tray containing all kinds of palatable foods, and Rashid Bey Namaan never approached me unless he felt a need for that food; yet both of our souls remained far apart from us like two humble, dignified servants. I have tried to reconcile myself to what people call misfortune, but my spirit refused to spend all its life kneeling with me before a horrible idol erected by the dark ages and called LAW. I kept my chains until I heard Love calling me and saw my spirit preparing to embark. Then I broke them and walked out from Rashid Bey Namaan's home like a bird freed from his iron cage and leaving behind me all the gems, clothes and servants. I came to live with my beloved, for I knew that what I was doing was honest. Heaven does not want me to weep and suffer. Many times at night I prayed for dawn to come and when dawn came, I prayed for the day to be over. God does not want me to lead a miserable life, for He placed in the depths of my heart a desire for happiness; His glory rests in the happiness of my heart.
"This is my story and this is my protest before heaven and earth; this is what I sing and repeat while people are closing their ears for fear of hearing me and leading their spirits into rebellion that would crumble the foundation of their quavering society.
"This is the rough pathway I have carved until I reached the mountain peak of my happiness. Now if death comes to take me away, I will be more than willing to offer myself before the Supreme Throne of Heaven without fear or shame. I am ready for the day of judgment and my heart is white as the snow. I have obeyed the will of God in everything I have done and followed the call of my heart while listening to the angelic voice of heaven. This is my drama which the people of Beyrouth call 'A curse upon the lips of life,' and 'An ailment in the body of society.' But one day love will arouse their hearts like the sun rays that bring forth the flowers even from contaminated earth. One day the wayfarers will stop by my grave and greet the earth that enfolds my body and say, 'Here lies Rose Hanie who freed herself from the slavery of decayed human laws in order to comply with God's law of pure love. She turned her face toward the sun so she would not see the shadow of her body amongst the skulls and thorns.' "
The door opened and a man entered. His eyes were shining with magic rays and upon his lips appeared a wholesome smile. Madame Hanie rose, took the young man's arm and introduced him to me, then gave him my name with flattering words. I knew that he was the one for whose sake she denied the whole world and violated all earthly laws and customs.
As we sat down, silence controlled. Each one of us was engrossed in deep thought. One minute worthy of silence and respect had passed when I looked at the couple sitting side by side. I saw something I had never seen before, and realized instantly the meaning of Madame Hanie's story. I comprehended the secret of her protest against the society which persecutes those who rebel against confining laws and customs before determining the cause for the rebellion. I saw one heavenly spirit before me, composed of two beautiful and united persons, in the midst of which stood the god of Love stretching his wings over them to protect them from evil tongues. I found a complete understanding emanating from two smiling faces, illuminated by sincerity and surrounded by virtue. For the first time in my life I found the phantom of happiness standing between a man and a woman, cursed by religion and opposed by the law. I rose and bade them goodbye and left that poor hovel which Affection had erected as an altar to Love and Understanding. I walked past the buildings which Madame Hanie pointed out to me. As I reached the end of these quarters I remembered Rashid Bey Namaan and meditated his miserable plight and said to myself, "He is oppressed; will heaven ever listen to him if he complains about Madame Hanie? Had that woman done wrong when she left him and followed the freedom of her heart? Or did he commit a crime by subduing her heart into love? Which of the two is the oppressed and which is the oppressor? Who is the criminal and who is the innocent?"
Then I resumed talking to myself after a few moments of deep thinking. "Many times deception had tempted woman to leave her husband and follow wealth, because her love for riches and beautiful raiment blinds her and leads her into shame. Was Madame Hanie deceitful when she left her rich husband's palace for a poor man's hut? Many times igorance kills a woman's honour and revives her passion; she grows tired and leaves her husband, prompted by her desires, and follows a man to whom she lowers herself. Was Madame Hanie an ignorant woman following her physical desires when she declared publicly her independence and joined her beloved young man? She could have satisfied herself secretly while at her husband's home, for many men were willing to be the slaves of her beauty and martyrs of her love. Madame Hanie was a miserable woman. She sought only happiness, found it, and embraced it. This is the very truth which society disrespects." Then I whispered through the ether and inquired of myself, "Is it permissible for a woman to buy her happiness with her husband's misery?" And my soul added, "Is it lawful for a man to enslave his wife's affection when he realizes he will never possess it?"
I continued walking and Madame Hanie's voice was still sounding in my ears when I reached the extreme end of the city. The sun was disappearing and silence ruled the fields and prairies while the birds commenced singing their evening prayers. I stood there meditating, and then I sighed and said, "Before the throne of Freedom, the trees rejoice with the frolicsome breeze and enjoy the rays of the sun and the beams of the moon. Through the ears of Freedom these birds whisper and around Freedom they flutter to the music of the brooks. Throughout the sky of Freedom these flowers breathe their fragrance and before Freedom's eyes they smile when day comes.
"Everything lives on earth according to the law of nature, and from that law emerges the glory and joy of liberty; but man is denied this fortune, because he set for the God-given soul a limited and earthly law of his own. He made for himself strict rules. Man built a narrow and painful prison in which he secluded his affections and desires. He dug out a deep grave in which he buried his heart and its purpose. If an individual, through the dictates of his soul, declares his withdrawal from society and violates the law, his fellowmen will say he is a rebel worthy of exile, or an infamous creature worthy only of execution. Will man remain a slave of self-confinement until the end of the world? Or will he be freed by the passing of time and live in the Spirit for the Spirit? Will man insist upon staring downward and backward at the earth? Or will he turn his eyes toward the sun so he will not see the shadow of his body amongst the skulls and thorns?[/i]

Col ]:)

Although it really only applies to the Western Religions as most of the Eastern ones don't rely on the Duality that the Westerns ones do.

I did an edit on the following link

https://www.techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=8&threadID=193156&messageID=1998788

and posted the poem that Gibran got excommunicated for writing would you like to have a read of this one and tell me what you think that the Roman Church found so wrong with it?

[b]Help Me Mommy[/b] I'm being serious in a religious discussion I [b]Need Help![/b] :(

Col

:D You are a handful! :D I can see that this is going to be a most full weekend for me just trying to begin to reply! I LOVE your sense of humor. I still have a reading assignment from you and an essay to write after I am done...ROFL...but I will do my best to begin the book in answer to this comment!
I hate assuming (it makes an ass of me) so I will ask. Are you atheist? I just wrote to a friend that most of the atheists I have known have been very enjoyable people to relate to and that I have been really surprised to meet so many who seem upset that I am not atheist.
You know what happens when you marry off an atheist to a Guilt ridden Catholic? You get a Beth! ROFL OK, I know, I'm too wordy. That's why I'm a writer and not IT. Keeping my mouth shut would kill me! :D

:x and :D,
Beth

don't fret! If you like you can follow the 11th commandment that I choose to follow. "Thou Shalt Not take thyself or life too seriously." I've found it helpful, too, to keep my tongue in my cheek and try to spin around and whistle Dixie. I've never succeeded, but it takes the edge off if I get too serious! LOL I'll do that other reading and reply more fully to it as soon as I am done laughing and playing right here!

Beth

No I'm not an atheist I'm actually a Buddhist with one of the fighting orders so I'm defiantly not the [b]Peace Loving Let Anything Happen[/b] person that many people think I am. :D

On of the first things we where taught was how to kill people so we didn't accidentally do something unwanted. My favorite weapon is still the [b]Pen as it's a lot Mightier than the Sword[/b] though I tend to use it a bit differently to what that comment implied. :p

After all how many people will run for their lives if you walk to wards then with a pen and paper but if you do it with a recognized weapon the story is totally different. I've been told that I know more ways to Kill a person than most people have had hot dinners and I've never so much as ever hurt a single person. Embarrassed several and myself once but that's a different story. :D

I might even tell it to you one day but now isn't the proper time as I've recently upset one [b]Beth[/b] and I don't want a repeat of someone misunderstanding my intentions. :^0

Col ]:)

You've been a [b]Very Naughty Little Boy[/b] and Windows is no longer working the way you expect because of your actions. Another [b]Undocumented Windows Feature.[/b] :^0

Col ]:)

[b]It's all M$ FAULT!!!!!!!!!!![/b]

Sandy if you keep this up the next airlock that you walk past will open unexpectedly. :p

Col ]:)

I'ma born-again Injun and have no problem with protecting life. The church people don't get me at all, but I love them anyway.
Boy! Am I glad I didn't assume!!

There is strength in gentleness. Meekness does not mean weakness. And if all else fails...kick butt!

speak the truth?
Just this would have gotten him kicked out:

"My prayers were not granted, because Love descends upon our souls by the will of God and not by the demand or the plea of the individual.

"Those people who go to back to eternity before they taste the sweetness of real life are unable to understand the meaning of a woman's suffering. Especially when she devotes her soul to a man she loves by the will of God, and her body to another whom she caresses by the enforcement of earthly law.

. "Today I am one with the man I love; he and I sprang out as one torch from the hand of God before the beginning of the world. There is no power under the sun that can take my happiness from me, because it emanated from two embraced spirits, engulfed by understanding, radiated by Love, and protected by heaven."

They will tell you more than that, because the ghosts of their fathers are still living in their bodies. They are like the deserted caves of the mountains that echo voices whose meanings are not understood. They neither understand the law of God, nor comprehend the true intent of veritable religion, nor distinguish between a sinner and an innocent. They look only at the surface of objects without knowing their secrets. They pass their verdicts with ignorance, and judge with blindness, making the criminal and the innocent, the good and the bad, equal. Woe to those who prosecute and judge the people.
In God's eyes I was unfaithful and an adulteress only while at the home of Rashid Bey Namaan, because he made me his wife according to the customs and traditions and by the force of haste, before heaven had made him mine in conformity with the spiritual law of Love and Affection. I was a sinner in the eyes of God and myself when I ate his bread and offered him my body in reward for his generosity. Now I am pure and clean because the law of Love has freed me and made me honourable and faithful. I ceased selling my body for shelter and my days for clothes. Yes, I was an adulteress and a criminal when the people viewed me as the most honourable and faithful wife; today I am pure and noble in spirit, but in their opinion I am polluted, for they judge the soul by the outcome of the body and measure the spirit by the standard of matter

These people from whom I have freed myself are the ones who become attracted by the body and repelled by the spirit, and who know naught of Love and Beauty. The only mediator between them and God is God's pity for their ignorance of the law of God. I cannot judge, for I was one of them, but I sympathize with all my heart. I do not hate them, but I hate their surrender to weakness and falsehood.
. I have tried to reconcile myself to what people call misfortune, but my spirit refused to spend all its life kneeling with me before a horrible idol erected by the dark ages and called LAW. I kept my chains until I heard Love calling me and saw my spirit preparing to embark.

God does not want me to lead a miserable life, for He placed in the depths of my heart a desire for happiness; His glory rests in the happiness of my heart.

Now if death comes to take me away, I will be more than willing to offer myself before the Supreme Throne of Heaven without fear or shame. I am ready for the day of judgment and my heart is white as the snow. I have obeyed the will of God in everything I have done and followed the call of my heart while listening to the angelic voice of heaven

, 'Here lies Rose Hanie who freed herself from the slavery of decayed human laws in order to comply with God's law of pure love.

For the first time in my life I found the phantom of happiness standing between a man and a woman, cursed by religion and opposed by the law

"Everything lives on earth according to the law of nature, and from that law emerges the glory and joy of liberty; but man is denied this fortune, because he set for the God-given soul a limited and earthly law of his own.

Those who want to claim that they have an "in"with God and we have to do as they say are going to have one hell of a time of it when they find out how wrong they were.
I allow others their right to be wrong and I grin because I know what love is and have been loved. And I set a few prists to scratching their head. One said of my husband and me, "You are the most married unmarried couple I have ever met." We were married by a JP when he got a leave from boot camp. When he got home from Nam we went to classes to receive the church's blessing. When they told me that I had to get into a little box and confess having lived in sin, I walked away. I knew for certain then that they didn't have any idea who or what God was. I had committed no sin in loving my husband. It would have been a sin if I had followed what they wanted.

That's something that the Dali Lama constantly tried to cure me of when I was his Body Guard. I'm supposed to be all meek and mild but I'm anything but that. :^0

Now I suppose that I'll have to justify my actions to him [b]AGAIN![/b] Pacifists are such a pain particularly when you have to keep them safe. :_|

But Luckily for me he isn't due here for quite some time so maybe he'll have forgotten all about it by then though I wouldn't hold my breath hoping. ;\

Col ]:)

Most people fail to see the reason why this was so controversial when written. ;\

Go straight to Go Collect your $200.00 and enjoy, you are one of the first people to get the message with out having to have it explained to them. Now can I take you on a tour of Fine Literature instead of [b]A Silly Religious Discussions?[/b] ;)

I'll apologize to Jules latter for Hijacking his discussion to a totally different area well maybe I will. :^0

Col ]:)

Neat! Have you considered beginning a new discussion? It would be easier to navigate and wouldn't mess up Julian's debate.
As for understanding...it's pleasant to be understood! Thanks, Hal.

:x
Beth

It's now well past 1.30 AM and I have to be on site by 7.00 AM so I'll finish off yesterdays e-mail and try to get a few hours study of the insides of my eye lids. I know it's not going to happen but I'll at least be able to claim that [b]I Tried![/b] :8}

Besides as I've said I'm already [b]ON Notice[/b] for upsetting Beth so I'm going to be a [b]Good Little Boy[/b] for the time being until they part way forget. :^0

Col ]:)

And many of what society, in whatever form, consider the best or brightest WILL in times of duress regress to the basest of animal instincts and do whatever it takes to survive. Whether its in Biblical times, the Dark Ages, WWII, or today.
That is what society has to channel and mold to a more enlightened way of survival. Maybe that is what these different religions are trying to accomplish in their own ways.

I really do need to get away from it all.

Christianity does not ask it's followers to kill, but rather to spread the Gospel as seen in Matthew 28:19&20. You are right that many do take things out of context, but taking things litteraly is not a bad thing unless there is some good indication that a certain text is just a parable. Unless a parable, in the Bible I see not only a moral but also a true account that can help explain why the Earth and Universe are as they are.

Islam came many years after Christianity/Judaism and has not rapture or after 7 year tribulation mellinial kingdom promise.

In Hebrews 9:22 KJV "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."

No other belief system has anything even close to the greatest love story ever written.

Sorry you've lost me here Shedding Blood to be purged and without it there can be no remission.

How is that related to Love it sounds far more like HATE where you shed the blood of the non believers! That sounds far more like the Radical Islamic Fundamentalists who need to kill the Infidel.

Anyway Christianity as you understand it didn't arise in any major form for about 400 years after Christ and even the Islamic Religious Book which you seem to want to dismiss out of hand makes mention of the Nazarene who arrived around the year 34 AD on the Roman Calender and brought about Unification [or at least part way resolved the differences] between the Jewish and Islamic Religions for about 35 years until his death.

Incidentally I'm having a [b]Black Mass[/b] this Friday would you like to be the [b]Ritual Sacrifice[/b] so if your faith is strong you can meet your maker ASAP. I can shed your blood in the process so you should be happy. :D

Col ]:)

Many false teachers will come in Christ's name but they are not teaching true Biblical doctrine.

For whosoever believeth in Him should NOT perish.....

or any other misdemeanour or felony is, as you well know, to say 500 Hail Mary's, 200 Our Father's, and to be reincarnated as a sewing machine repairman on machines that use Microsoft software to function.
]:)

Peter, James,John, were all Jews. There became great rejection after the Paul started to convert the gentiles. There was a great persecution of the early church and what was known as hte diaspora happened.

The killings didn't start with the Christians, look to the Jews, and Rome for that. We have learned to go from peace to war rather quickly. Thankfully, we are allowed to defend ourselves. We tend to turn the other cheek. Only once, but look out when we raise the Jolly Roger... Here's looking down the pipper at you!

This is almost as bad as agreeing with Absolutely.

Julian, The power of God's spirit is alive and working in and through many men. Even an evil man can be used for God's will.

Do the words [b]Cruel & Inhumane Punishment mean anything at all to you?[/b] :(

Really MS OS's on Sewing Machines that is just plain nasty and you know it. :p

But I could live with the Substandard OS's if I didn't have to deal with the [b]Silly Owners[/b] who insist that there is nothing wrong with their Sewing Machine so it shouldn't cost anything to repair as it's only doing the odd thing wrong. :D

Col ]:)

...the "Hare Krishnas" have done more in the recent past about introducing Indian Philosophy, albeit the monotheistic portion of it. I say unfortunately, because I just don't like their way of preaching and monotheism.

I am not sure how much Vivekanada influence the world outside India, but definitely he had inspired many Indians in India with his stellar talks and writings.

You begin by statING that you do beleive in both Heaven & Hell.

You end with the question "[i]So what is Heaven and Hell?[/i]"

How is it possible that you claim to believe in something for which you admit you have no definition?

Besides, I am also a man of science. There is lots of scientifict fact in the Bible that goes unnoticed by communities like this. That is why I am here to show it. Goto www.drdino.com . Also if you want we could pick this up at an easyer to use site, http://www.cleanfunnyjoke.com/index.php . There I am known as pastageek, and we discuss stuff like this all the time, but remember no curse words are allowed.

You are the fool if you try to deny faith. What ever the explanation for life, earth, and Universe it still requires faith, but the real question is what faith is the best? I believe it is Christianity.

And, yes, I'm being judgemental now. My religion allows me to be just that in [b]my[/b] search for the truth or - if you will - The Truth.

I am an Advocate of the Mercatoria Shrievality.

We have discovered that all life is a simulation being run in an unknown computing substrate in a greater and more encompassing reality. We hold this in the forefront of our minds at all times and regularly meet to express this knowledge. We are an evangelising group for we know that, once we achieve the threshold of those who hold and act upon this knowledge compared to those who have not yet seen The Truth, the simulation will end and we will be free.

If we are all part of some vast Cosmic Experiment - as some believe - then this knowledge will cause the experiment to end and so free us. If we are being tested then, by this, we will pass the test and be freed. If we are being punished then that punishment will end.

I, as a Member of the Militant Arm of the Mercatoria Shrievality (I am a Major in the Shrievality Ocula) am aware that the tipping point at which the simulation ends might be upon the conversion of a sceptic to a true believer but is more likely to be when an unreformable heathen breathed his or her last. War, terrorism and genocide amongst the unbeliever changes the Sublime Ratio in our favour. We work to that End.

Neil

By the way, Colin, at least in my estimation from reading the posts and peermails that he's written over the last couple of years, is very much nicer than you. I've rarely - if ever - seen him post a cross word to anyone and he's one of the most helpful technical respondents in the whole site. All this and a Mad Aussie Buddhist Biker, too? I think that you've a lot of work to do.

I know he's a lot nicer than me and [b]I'm[/b] probably nicer than you. I've no idea what Matthew 5:48 says, by the way, as I'm not a Christian.

Ash nazg durbatul?k
ash nazg gimbatul
ash nazg thrakatul?k
agh burzum-ishi krimpatul

:|

The choices available are to comply, and live, or not comply, and either die or be eternally tormented.

This is a Hobson's choice if ever there was one!

You are attempting to manipulate the definitions to suit your purposes.

In this case, you hold that those who call themselves Christians, but do not concur with your personal beliefs in all detail, are not Christians.

It would, using your own reasoning, be equally valid for those whom you exlude from Christiantiy to declare that you yourself are not a Christian.

Your's is naught but a proclamation that you are correct and all who disagree are incorrect. This, with no basis in fact whatsoever.

Rational discourse does [b]not[/b] include the pronouncement of faith as fact.

Are you are Jew?

If not, than an argument could be made that you are not Christian!

Your continued attempts to manipulate definitions to suit your own purposes will not gain you any advantage here. In fact, it will serve only to cause many to either ignore you or attack you.

Continue such intellectual dishonesty at your own peril.

Your simply saying such is true does not make it so.

Stop preaching and open your mind to new ideas and possibilities.

Heaven is the place where you lie around [b]Stoned to the Eye Balls[/b] thinking nice thoughts about everything with an unlimited supply of the drugs of your choice and Hell is the place where you have to work for your drugs and can only have short [b]Highs[/b] because you have to continue working to pay for the drugs that you need. :^0

Of course in Hell you also have the option of not taking Drugs and putting your money towards something else that you find satisfying like computers. ?:|

Personally I'm glad I'm in Hell as it's far more fun. B-)

Col ]:)

I didnt mean to imply that I didnt have an idea of what heaven and hell are. But it is mostly conjecture on anybodies part as to what heaven and hell are like, other than what you read in the bible. And that is explained by God to people that recorded His words, who at the very least are 2000 to 5000 years behind us on knowledge, science etc. How would you explain genetic structure etc to an aborigonal people? And how would they record what you said? So you can believe in a place, but not necessarily what others write or say about it. You can believe in its existance and possibly its purpose. I hope that explains my thoughts a little better.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition...

]:)

Neil, I would never tell you to "bugger off" (I thought I was the only yahoo around here that used the term 'bugger') unless you told me to first and even then I'd think twice before starting the 'world cup final' against you.

In another post I mentioned that you clearly have alot more knowledge on this topic then I could ever hope to serve up but I figured I would still make the attempt and throw a few your way. You seem to hit whatever I throw at you straight out the park so maybe I should give it up altogether.

I appreciate the "nice guy" comments, I think it's impressive and speaks volumes of your good character (and mine too while we're at it) considering all of these heated religion debates that we can still be civil to each other while sitting on opposites sides of this argument.

I tend to always think the worst of human nature but there are times that even simple things like talking amicably to other people over hot topics like this without the need to wave fists in the air and name calling that make me think that a small chance does exist that we won't blow ourselves and everything on this planet sky high.

I enjoy debates as well, especially over hot topics like these (don't get me started on a topic like the whole U.S./Iraq war, I'll give you a run for your money!) so don't hold back at all. You won't convert me on this issue (as I won't convert you) but I'll definitely take an interest in what you have to say about this subject - if anything it's one of the more interesting discussions on this site!

p.s. Neil, bugger off! (just kidding, don't hurt me)

... rob,wpg ;-)

What are they going to do if you screw up? Send you to Heaven?

That it is not is evidenced by the very fact that there are any number of different beliefs as to what Heaven & Hell are, if they even exist as physical entities at all.

You seem to be saying that you believe that there are 2 distinct possible destinations where all humans ultimately find themselves for eternity, yet you have no idea what they are.

With no idea as to what they are, why believe that they even exist?

In pondering your response, bear in mind that the texts that you refer to are the writings of men, not of any diety, and are therefore subjective in nature.

Sheffield is much friendlier. Course in yorkshire you best bet is always out of the cities.

would be a more palatable fate, listening to billions of people like you sitting on clouds and flapping would be a fate worse than death.

so hold off on rewriting history.
Christian a follower of christ. The exact doctrine of the catholic faith has never particularly interested me, I'm pretty sure Jesus is involved in it though.

What about mormons, methodists, latterday adventists, jehovas witnesses, bahais, anglicans, presbyterians, calvinists .....

Is it only catholics who believe in christ who are not christians or what? Or do you maintain that catholics don't believe in christ ?

I'd pay attention to Deepsand if I were you, you're starting to annoy me.

when you are so scared that your faith might be incorrect that, you dare not question it ?

If you are operating on faith, by definition you are not being scientific!

The only way we could scientifically prove there is no god would be to become one, in which case we'd be wrong !

We could prove scientifically there is a god but as good scientists our next questions would be . Why ? How ? When ?

I noticed that too, but lost elsewhere here before I could address it.

While he may in fact be a Scientist in some regard, he is most certainly not here being Scientific.

While there is certainly nothing wrong with that in and of itself, to try to here cloak himself in the shroud of Science is mere chicanery, the kind of intellectual dishonesty that we are accustomed to seeing from those who would have us accept such logically flawed positions as those of Creation Science and Intelligent Design.

I suspect, though, that true volunteers will be so few and far between that the sample size would be insufficient for our purposes.

Hey, but what the hell. We can simply say that, despite the opposition's charge that our results are statistically insignificant, we BELIEVE our results and that they therefore stand as proof!

Just goes to show how wonderful we are.

We are allowed to believe what we want to believe.

Is Hell physical or spiritual?

Don't know, Don't care. I won't be going there...

Then hell on earth is New Jersey. :D

I use K&R or Ansi C.

I use Hungarian notation "religiously"

It fits pointer to structur of pointer linked lists as #2. C coding is a religion...

The roman catholic church never does what it should if we are to consider it Christian.

David was not cowardly or honourless or a canine. I don't understand what you are getting at.

Just because you don't like the fact that God will judge all humans doesn't mean that it is slavish. Slavish would leave you with no choices or free will. In Christianity you have two choices and the free will in order to make that choice.

Do you expect God to just let you go with whatever religion you find or come up with and just wink at it. God said that he would not share his glory with another so that deffenatly kicks out all other religions as false, and the idea of the universe being a simulation is just another idea to escape the question of who is the creator and move the answer further and further out of reach. It also requires massive dosses of faith.

It is not just right to read comments of all religions by individuals and compare it with your own religion which you learnt yourself.
Having read atleast once the bible, the quran and the bagvad gita gives little more insight.

First learn most of the culture and history of human. The ancient indians and ancient egyptians had strong religions. most egyptians converted to islam. indian and countries nearer still have hinduism. Then came Christianity and Islam. To my knowledge Hinduism is a way of life. Not religion. All 5 vedas or upnishads of hinduism never mention a name of an entity called god or a shape for god. bagvad gita is considered to be an short essence as a small step towards vedas and upnishads. If hinduism is not religion then what is it? It is called sanathana dharmam. Meaning living together. Different sects of hinduism are saivism, vaisnavism, budhism, jainish etc. In other side take christinity. the purpose was clear. jesus came here to rescue the sinners. he gave ten commandments. then bible was formed. bible gives rules and regulations for every face of life in other words doctrines of christianity which every christian has to follow. jesus gave 10 commandments for humans not for christians alone. any believer of god has to believe this. that does not mean that a person born in another religion has to convert himself to christiantity to follow jesus. and same way prophet mohamed came to set rules for human to reach god. there will be another prophet sometime when it is required. It is required for our human culture to establish something. what is that something? for example if everything was going correct and perfect as per plan would anyone think of god? well may it be shiva or jesus or allah or buddha? So when the society in overall tends to get wilder and when majority of the truthfull and innocent people are getting affected due to this wilderness!!! there appears the next prophet.

By comparing and trying to prove one religion is better than other is a waste of time. we all have responsibility for being born here. we are all assigned a job in this society and culture. If everyone is truthfull to themselves there are lots of bad elements to be removed. I remember one pastuer who used to visit my home almost every day to convince my father to convert to christianity. we asked to give good strong reasons for us to convert. He started telling 1) in your religion u worship stone. 2) your god is scary and ugly. 3) you cannot marry second time. 4) your religion has many casts and creeds. 5) you cannot marry in another religion.... and so on.
Although i have scientific reasons for all his questions, it is not the topic here. Important is what my father answered. "Thanks for noticing the problems. It will be my duty to solve those issues than running away to another religion"

So in this scientific world lets understand the meaning of worshiping sun, moon, venus, saturn etc. But that should not stop us launching the next robot or satillite there!!!

[Friends. Please understand at any place i have no intention of writing anything wrong on any religion. If you find anything affecting somebody please forgive me]

good luck
rv

All I am doing is challenging you to learn about the Catholic Church from someone who is knowledgeable about the biblical basis of Catholic Church Doctrine. Do not base your opinion from a reverend of another religion or Pastor Bubba from the Southern Baptist Convention's Commission on the Evils of the Catholic Church. [i](I am not saying you are southern baptist.)[/i] Go to a Catholic Priest or take my suggestion and take one of the Catholicism for non-Catholics classes offered by many dioceses.

Further ALL religions are rife with error. If you don't like error then avoid religion. The only fact about the Bible is that it is a translation, of a translation, of a translation, of a text that was verbally handed down multiple times. There is no way to be certain that any interpretation of the Bible is the correct one. Therefore, there is no way to be certain that any Doctrine of any religion is correct.

The culture at the time called for a fight between champions of the opposing armies. The Philistine's champion was Goliath and, as was honourable, he stepped forward to engage in single combat with the opposing champion.

That "champion" - David - picked Goliath off from a distance with the sling. I believe that the American word to describe it would be "bushwhacked". The modern equivalent would be "shot in the back".

Still, it's in the bible and so it [b]must[/b] have been an honourable action and Tony and I just badly miss the point.

Which is?

I believe if memory serves, that the THEROY that the earth was NOT the center of the universe what considered Demonic Doctrine. (Insert ominous music here)

I also seem to remember, the theory that the world was round was considered Demonic Doctrine. (Insert ominous music here)

I find that Clergy that spout that do so to serve their own purposes. [i] "Anything that disputes what I say is truth is DEMONINC DOCTORINE."[/i](Insert ominous music here)

Ultimately, never waver from the belief that Christ is our savior and God is our Maker and I believe you should be OK.

You stated "[i]Slavish would leave you with no choices or free will.[/i]

Also, per you, it was God who both created us and decided the choices available to us.

Therefore, since we neither created ourselves nor chose our possible destinies, any covenant with God is a contract of adhesion, not a negotiated one.

It therefore follows that we [b]do not have free will[/b], which meets your above referenced definition of slavish.

Next time try using a bit more logic before you put your foot into it.

Or, it may simply be that it was excised from [b]his bible[/b] for being "non-Christian."

You have taken the position that [i]your interpretation[/i] of religious scripture is the one and only true and correct one, a position that simply cannot be proven, and that all who disagree are, by [i]your[/i] definition wrong.

And, you elsewhere attempt to legitimize your position by claiming to be a scientist, thereby inferring that all that you say is scientific.

This is an arrogance of the most egregious order.

Now, please tell us more about the mad scientist that you reference.