Ageism? Good Idea?

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Do we really want to have old geeks in our industry? Isn’t it time we came clean with the truth and said it like it is? Older people (over 40s) working in the IT industry is like a wrinkly driving a sports car…pathetic! Buy a Volvo for Christsakes!

The oldies struggle to keep up with change. It’s a natural consequence of aging. They prattle on about how important understanding DOS is, when no-one gives a toss about DOS anymore and 90% of current IT folk don’t even know what it is!

If you were interviewing candidate for a job in network technical support, would you employ a 55 year old? Truthfully please!

It is for the young…….isn’t it?

What do you think?

Topic

In 20 years

In reply to Ageism? Good Idea?

In 20 years you’ll be crying about how valuable your work experience is and how all these young pups think they know more than they really do, and how they have no work ethic blah blah blah. Putz.

20 years is a lot

In reply to In 20 years

Must make the distinction that the only way you get wisdom is time.

Not just time.

In reply to 20 years is a lot

Wisdom comes from good judgement over time.
Good judgement comes from experience.
Experience comes from…. bad judgement 🙂

well said

In reply to Not just time.

people smart enough to make mistakes? :0)

Discriminatory

In reply to well said

Smart enought to make mistakes and LEARN from them. Age has nothing to do with that. It’s all about ability, determination sheer stick-to-it-iveness.

Speaking as one of the “over 40” I think rings around the “young pups”. I can, and do, frequently answer questions in the dead of night without fully waking up – that’s how well I know my stuff. Coming up during the time when pride was taken in a job well done, I wouldn’t want to be one of the younglings today. Most are all brash and flash – no depth.

You got that right!

In reply to Discriminatory

I am so with you CrisTech! The attitude of the young newbies is disgusting. No one wants to deal with someone who thinks they know it all.

Sounds like Robb will just have to learn the hard way.

You said a mouthful there…

In reply to You got that right!

I remember when I thought I knew everything, too. I wouldn’t go back to my 20’s for any price. I love the age and love my knowledge. I can do things now, that I never thought I’d be able to do–thought it was only in the Sci-Fi books I used to read, but it’s all come to pass and then some. With my husband and I involved in the computer world and have been since 1976 (him) and me (1985 when PCs started coming on board), we’ve learned more than we thought we could and can navigate the Net with the best of them. My hubby taught me things and I’ve taught him things, and we both take seminars on the Net and in RL to stay on top. My husband loves what he does and is creating new and cutting edge products that are selling like hot cakes, and is creating more to fill the gap of the ones that sold… Thank goodness they’re all patented ideas, too, becasue I’ve learned how cut throat companies are if they think they can grab your ideas away free and clear without doing the work. So, Robb, good luck. The school of hard knocks is not the worst way to learn, but at least learn before you spout off.

In The Old Days Smart People Got Into IT

In reply to You got that right!

In the old days, some very smart people entered the IT field.

Nowadays, because of agism, because weak managers hire those who are “no threat”, after 10 to 20 years a person faces an assumption of obsolecense.

What very smart person would try to make a career in a field like this? It would kind of be proof they are dumb.

Instead the very smart now enter engineering, sales, accounting, etc.

DOSsyes have more fun!

In reply to You got that right!

Wisdom is a seed that grows with experience.
The only thing I could think after reading the CrisTech’s post was I’ll never hire a technician who states so clearly its unknowledge! How on evil he/she will be able to deal with windows deep service with no knowledge of DOS? Haw to chek deeply the disk surface? (for instance)
Youth is normally a life’s period plenty of suficience, when the human never think to get old itself; so they do sentences that, for the times forecoming, will jeopardice their career.
Here in Spain we have a short story about a boy making a wood-cup for his parents, as he look the way they work with the grandfather.
Regards, soon or late we all get unhaired.

challenge to non-DOSers.

In reply to You got that right!

In teaching an OS class once, a student challenged me that DOS was outdated and no longer necessary. I challenged the student to copy all of the DOC XLS MDB TXT GIF and JPG files on the C: drive to a second hard drive (say drive f:) while keeping the original source directory structure. The student could not tell me how to do that in GUI short of a hell of a lot of work.

I then entered a command window and typed

for %f in (DOC XLS MDB TXT GIF JPG) do xcopy C:\*.%f f:\ /s/e/v

and then I walked away while the PC did the work. The student never doubted the value of DOS again.

Too bad Robb wasn’t in that class.

Exception

In reply to Discriminatory

I’m in the > 55 group and I agree with your assessment of many young programmers having no depth with some exception. Many of the young programmers I’ve seen from the areas of Madris, Bangalore, Bombay, etc. are very earnest in producing good code and learning good technique.

Although, philosophically, I’d prefer they weren’t here in the US taking many jobs for less money and driving our salaries down. It’s nothing personal, I find several of my closest coworkers are here on their H1B.

Probably not the topic in discussion

In reply to Exception

H1B or not, if it’s not someone from Madras, it probably will be someone from cuccamonga or timbuctoo. Hiding behind “foreigners” taking up US jobs is mostly a cover up for inadequate skills, and failing to keep up with Technology, and unrealistic salary expectations, on a bloated “self Worth”. I was also working in the US for the last 8 Yrs, on a TN Visa from Canada. Needless to say, I am over 40, and my skillset and Experience could not met with anyone, even after advertising the position, nationally. I was apprached to return back to the States, even after relocating back to Canada last year. and Guess What? I moved without having any job prospects as I consider it Unethical to look for a job while employed. The longest I’ve been “in-between jobs” since 1987? 3 WEEKS !!!, and that’s after moving back to Canada. I’m sure there’s a great Cheese somewhere to go with that whine of Yours.

After all is said and done, experience/hands on counts

In reply to Exception

OK, member “ROBB” – I have sat on the sidelines long enough and I will speak my peace now: “When All is Said and Done, Experience and ‘HANDS-ON’ counts! I don’t care how much “book-learning you have, if you cannot apply it in the real ANALOG WORLD we live in, still, it is not worth a hill of beans! It’s like trying to learn and ride a horse by reading and never experiencing it in the REAL WORLD – it won’t happen! You have to get UP on the HORSE physically and in person!
Yes I’ve been in this racket as long as Bill Gates has, and I don’t see anyone telling him to step down and go “out to pasture”! I am 52.5 years YOUNG and can think for myself and am very innovative and flexible. I got into computers before it was the “in thing to do”. I am as much a PIONEER in MICROCOMPUTERS (Yes, laugh – that is the original name for these ‘PCs’) as Steve Wozniak, Bill Gates and Steven Jobs…. As for DOS, well as long as you have DISK DRIVES and FILES-FOLDERS whatever you want to call them, you are going to need a “DOS” “D)isk O)perating S)ystem, no matter how well Microsoft wants to hide it like it’s some accident your pet dog left on the sofa, LOL!
“MICROSOFT WINDOWS” has been “out” since at least 1985 and I see it is so humorous with the “Johnny come lately crowd” to beat up Us old guard pioneers in this IT Field.
AMEN members “CRISTech”, “mikeolmon”, “Super_IT_Mom”, and so many of you thinking along these lines, too!

Absolutely Right

In reply to Discriminatory

You are right on the money. It should be about the ability to do the job regardless of age (old or young). Unfortunately there is way too much brash and flash these days.

Not Confucious, Just me

In reply to well said

“people smart enough to make mistakes? :0)”

Know that people do make mistakes because they’re imperfect and that teamwork involves trust built upon honesty and communications.

Know that maturity is admitting mistakes so that others learn not to make the same mistakes and that we as a team can prevent similar mistakes.

None of us is as smart as all of us (Japanese proverb)

In reply to Not Confucious, Just me

I love working with young graduates because they are keen and idealistic (and yes, older workers can be, too, if they are not too cynical) and usually willing to learn from the old dogs.
However, many people want to make their own mistakes. Look at the failed systems around that look amazingly like other failed systems. Look at the failed projects (good technical coding by itself does not guarantee a successful project). ?Buffer overflow? is a constant security problem. But we encountered it years ago on mainframes. When in user mode the operating system would often protect us from the results of that error.
Would I employ someone over 55? Age does not come into it. But someone who is 15 might not have the experience I need. Experience, aptitude, attitude, willingness to learn. These are my favourite things.

57 Year Old Geek!

In reply to well said

I agree!
But Who will feed my Wife and kids.

Better still; they should exterminate the older guys and their families also.

Experience

In reply to Not just time.

Experience comes from lessons learned…….

Well Said Grasshopper!

In reply to Not just time.

When we are young we have the flexibility to learn fast and it is all new and wonderful! Who cares about the past and lets forget it and go forward. But rememeber those that fail to learn from the past are destined to repeat it. Does this mean you will mess up and end up with DOS as your OS again? Of course not, but the lessons we learned and why DOS wasn’t a good base for the OS especially in today and tommorows hack-a-matic world should not be lost.

I think Mark Twain said…

In reply to Well Said Grasshopper!

…History doesn’t repeat itself; but it rhymes.

You see this a *lot* in start-up companies managed by young people with no experience and no “parental supervision” 🙂

DOS an’t dead

In reply to Well Said Grasshopper!

Recently we had a third party company write a data extract from our SQL database to send to one of our clients. They used OSQL.exe to do this and guess how they executed the extract? With a DOS batch file. So sometimes us old folks come in handy, and I do try to stay current in the industry. Don’t shoot me yet.

DOS ain’t dead

In reply to DOS an’t dead

That’s the truth.

Knowing it came in handy while I was learning Linux and configuring Cisco routers.

As far as keeping up with the new stuff, I find it easier to do that I did learning about computers in the first place. Most the old stuff is still applicable, and as you say it helps being able to write batch files.

Maybe it’s just me

In reply to DOS an’t dead

But I can not understand how you could work without some form of DOS. It is everywhere from the CD installation of XP/2003 to running batch files.

What I do find as extremely easy is keeping up with changes in technology as I have a good grounding in what came previously and every new development to me at least is a natural progression of its previous incarnation. So while being a bit more complex than a new GUI and Icons the basic commands are still the same but maybe with a few extra options that we all wanted years ago.

Col ]:)

DOS still rules!

In reply to Maybe it’s just me

i still use DOS when formatting diskettes even XP is here…. better, ‘coz u can still do other tasks…

happy computing! : )

Atta boy

In reply to DOS an’t dead

same thing happened in the company I work for. Customer data from the days of DOS and Lotus were needed to make projections…guess what? we called in DOS guru. But thats not the point. The point is that time makes things better for those who use it well, and worse for those who don’t. Any old geek still in the industry shows s/he is worth their pith. If you can’t handle the heat of IT, you get worn out and out-competed, so you shouldn’t be worried about grannies in the industry, coz its survival for the fittest. If they are still there, then they are good enough to be there!

Clapping loudly

In reply to Atta boy

Here here!

DOS an’t dead …(REPLY)

In reply to DOS an’t dead

Mr. Foreman,
This is what I am talking about…many of the old ways that have saved and paved the way for the new are being lost. Sure this kid may have a bright idea..but what happens when it all goes awry and its back to the old codes and nobody can even code but just talk about it…
Good luck I say…

Isn’t that the Truth!

In reply to DOS an’t dead …(REPLY)

Just let one of these young pups try to write a network boot disk to load an image on a clean machine when their pretty GUI isn’t available because it crashed. HA! Figure the odds on that.

DOS and us old Farts are like Chevys of old. We just keep on running and running and running. If one of these young pups has the talent to push me out of a job, I’d like to see it. I’ll bet I can weave circles around him (or her) in my old Chevy (DOS) and even in VB.

“Go for it,” is what I say!

Dos an’t dead

In reply to DOS an’t dead …(REPLY)

Unix is still around I don’t think dos will ever disappear. Experience says a lot about People as well.

Nope, It Just Smells Funny

In reply to DOS an’t dead

Hi and thank you for that.

I am 55 years old and I have been in the IT industry here in the UK for 15 years.

I wrote the topic because I wanted to provoke debate over an issue that rarely gets any air-time. It has been a very busy week. I have received some fairly abusive mail. No matter. I am happy to have made folk think. I just hope that those who do hire and fire have read this and realise that people like me have so much to offer.

Thank you for your time and interest. I do appreciate the response, even if you were being annoyed with me. Well, I deserved it.

Robb

Reply To: Ageism? Good Idea?

In reply to Nope, It Just Smells Funny

Figured it had to be an “OLDIE”
Us oldies have a natural reaction for the new since it is based on the old….

With the Zappa reference

In reply to Nope, It Just Smells Funny

I knew you had to have some years behind you…

Thanks for throwing yourself on the proverbial sword to bring this topic up…

Nope, It Just Smells Funny

In reply to Nope, It Just Smells Funny

And here I was expecting to find that Robb was just an unemployed “IT Consultant” and was taking it out on us “old” guys.

Not that it matters that I have been in the IT field longer than some of the new pups have been alive but I am STILL better than 99.9% of those comming into the field, plus the retreads who came into the field as a second career types will ever be as productive or knowledgable.

For the record I am the youngest person in the company at 40!

– beads

Has your learning slowed with time?

In reply to Well Said Grasshopper!

No offense, but I still learn just as quickly as I did when I was younger. I pick up things faster than people half my age. With Age and experiance comes patience. That’s something young people don’t seem to have – at least not the ones I’m aquainted with.

Why you young whippersnapper!

In reply to Not just time.

Back before the War we didn’t have any of these sissy Icons and windows. We didn’t even have DOS, We only had ones and zeros. Sometimes we didn’t even have ones! I remember my first computer course clocking in the bootstrap a byte at a time, none of these long words for us, nosiree! We were called computer operators back then and Nobody gave us any crap or we’d play trip and pickup with their card deck. Mess with us and your modem would just disconnect every 3 minutes. And punch cards were the new thing back then too. Much easier to deal with than those Dinosaur wiring panels.
And it was a tough Job too. The rooms were so cold one guy froze to death because he fell asleep waiting for a job to finish. Another broke a leg when the technician forgot to replace a floor panel. You guys have it so easy today with your DVDs, memory sticks and tape libraries. Back then we did backups like real men! one tape at a time. And we had to thread them too. Try doing that with gloves on! Everyone thought the programmers were gods because the went around in white robes and sandals. Heck the disks were really floppy back then too. No plastic cases – just a paper sleeve
Look you snot nosed wet behind the ears truant, Just because there is snow on the mountain top doesn’t mean the volcano is extinct!

LOL

What’s all this talk about bootstrap??

In reply to Why you young whippersnapper!

Back when I started we didn’t even have “boots”. And this sissy e-mail? Hah! We’d just carve a message on a stone tablet and hand it to a guy whose job was to run with it to its destination on the next continent!

Hah!

In reply to What’s all this talk about bootstrap??

stone tablets indeed. Try growing papyrus!

Papyrus – Phooee

In reply to Hah!

They used to rip the skin off your back and write the message in your own blood!!

Booyahh!!!

In reply to Why you young whippersnapper!

You tell him, Ol’ timer.. We are not Worthy! [bows in the direction of Dryflies, in deep respect]

Skin and blood?! Luxury!

In reply to Booyahh!!!

We ‘ad to have our gizzards out, an’ wrapped around ‘ pole.
Then the systems administrator would light them on fire, and
use the smoke to send a signal.

Ahhh…Thank you dryflies.

In reply to Why you young whippersnapper!

After all these years I finally find out why this keypunch operator was always playing 2000 pickup with the cards! Thank God for sorters and reproducers. (Good thing I knew how to wire them.)

ChrisTech a.k.a. Richard Cranium

In reply to Why you young whippersnapper!

Out of all the topics and threads that I’ve read through the years, ChrisTech’s comments on this topic was the most dimwitted, non-educated single minded babble that unfortunately I have ever read.
With that type of attitude, I wouldn’t hire you or even let you clean my screen. Lucky that I can’t reach through the Cat5 wire.
God how I wish I could be there when he turns 40.
Who wants to take a bet by that time he won’t even be in I.T.
I have to stop typing, because the more I think about this the more angry I become.

That is deep!

In reply to Not just time.

I prefer to read about other’s bad experience to get good judgement when the opportunity arises

Age, Race, Gender Bigotry Refuge Of Cowards

In reply to 20 years is a lot

Adam has obvious problems. Competent people understand that age, gender, or race have little or nothing to do with competence. Competence is a function of attitude, intelligence, work, and patience. A closed mind can be owned by any age worker. Adam appears to have closed his at an age earlier than most.

(note. it is usually more cost-effective to have an experienced worker manage others with less experience – the premise to to try to avoid mistakes already made).

The ability to learn is not limited by age – it is limited by attitude.

YOU SAID IT

In reply to Age, Race, Gender Bigotry Refuge Of Cowards

Age is not in the “years” but between the “ears”
and about not being wet behind them?

I wish I had wrote that!

In reply to Age, Race, Gender Bigotry Refuge Of Cowards

Experience is the epitome of our future….knowing where we have been increases our chances of succeeding on the path to where we are going.

Hear, Hear !

In reply to Age, Race, Gender Bigotry Refuge Of Cowards

Excellent response!

Often those with “Classroom” experience are unable to resolve problems in the “Field”, because they’ve never been exposed to the problem.

Those of us with years of “Field” experience can draw from a multitude of “hands on” experiences.

Just because we did our first network in Windows 3.11 , Banyard Vines, or Lantastic doesn’t mean we don’t understand Windows 2003.

Hear, Hear

In reply to Hear, Hear !

Just because we are getting on a little (41) :-)doesn’t mean we are losing it. Although, I have been working in IT for a number of years, I am still learning (we all are). I earned my MSc in IT a couple of years ago.

Experience counts for more than youth.

Paula

Old >>>Youre over the hill if :

In reply to Hear, Hear

No one is too old. I can tell if a person is old by how he moves, how he acts and worries instead of doing. We need doers. Who dont stop if things get difficult, but solve it. That requires previous experience and talent, and you can include patience.

A lot of people who hire, use the Age thing to hire younger people who are allowed mistakes, as hiring older people, if they make mistakes is a dangerous thing as there are no excuses< We find it easier to tolerate mistakes from younger people, than from some one who should know better, seemingly. The question is then asked > Who hired him? <

Ageism is universal in High Tech

In reply to Old >>>Youre over the hill if :

Without a doubt ageism and age related hiring discrimination is almost universal in high tech… and it always has been that way. Most companies given equal qualifications and experience want to hire the youger applicants because:

They have established a corporate culture that emphasises youth, energy and vitality… older recruits often don’t fit the image they want to project.

Young people can be manuipulated by promises of career advanceent…they will even sleep over at the office “to get the project out by Friday” eating pizzas and take out Chinese. Older employees are less willing to do that. In the competitive world of software development timing is often critical…. the difference can mean millions.

Health insurance costs… in a unionized workplace the older guys are usually the high seniority guys… first hired, last fired… but as we get older we tend to use health insurance plans more. Health costs have become astronomical. According to GM, each new car off the line now has a $2500 price tage on just to cover their employees insurance costs. Most companies do have a health insurance program but high tech wants no part of the high fees of an older workforce, so they will not hire older workers (if they can help it) because of those extra costs. GM has an older workforce and they can’t compete with or in the overseas markets because their competitors don’t have the same costs… Japan… Korea… wages are lower and ageism is tolerated… even encouraged.

It isn’t always right, but it’s reality in the comptitive dog eat dog world of business. Most employers try to do the right thing, they will be fair and do the best to take care of their emplyees… but it’s the bottom line that counts in the end… and if the younger recruit costs less, it’s the younger recruit that gets the job.

Old wait a minute..

In reply to Old >>>Youre over the hill if :

Can you say old when you are just 40 and slightly
more. Wait and see if your children say that to you when you still think you are in fact not that old. It is never too late to learn but provided you are willing to learn and adapt to changing environment.When the going gets tough the tough ones old or young gets going.

Age Doesn’t Matter… Teams Matter

In reply to Hear, Hear !

Age doesn’t matter… It is all about attitude, aptitude, experience and work ethic. The most valuable employee has a high degree of all of these things. Certainly some capable older workers are less outwardly enthusuastic in their approach to work. However, generally their experience helps them reduce the number of mistakes made and ultimately makes them at least as productive as the best dedicated and capable youngster.

The real key here is that meaningful IT work these days requires a team approach. A great team will include a mix of personalities and perspectives. I shudder to think of a team made up of all older employees or all young employees. The fact is that the young and old need each other to succeed in this very difficult profession.

experience counts

In reply to Hear, Hear !

we aged warriors have made more mistakes then you have even thought of. we have learned how to solve problems. we go from what needs to be done, gnereate possibel solutions then code
we appreicate the new technology but are looking for vunerabliites

Even Better Said!

In reply to Age, Race, Gender Bigotry Refuge Of Cowards

Amen to that…when the ‘inexperienced’ talk about us oldsters, I believe they forget they will be there much sooner than they realize. The advancements in the technology fields are so rapid today that everyone has to work to keep abreast of the new as opposed to just 10 years ago.

Amen!!

In reply to Age, Race, Gender Bigotry Refuge Of Cowards

I am currently in the middle age range within IT–I’m 41. I’m not a “newbie”, but there are plenty older than I. I agree iwth ckoupal–competence is about attitude, intelligence, work, and patience. I’m no less interested in trying new things now than I was when I started. That’s why I got into this business to begin with. My previous career was stagnant–I certainly don’t want this one to become so.

Well said.

In reply to Age, Race, Gender Bigotry Refuge Of Cowards

IT needs smart and experienced people and they come in all ages, races and genders.

You said it

In reply to Age, Race, Gender Bigotry Refuge Of Cowards

Darned tootin’… and for proof, my network manager is 55 and runs
circles around everybody else

Competent people

In reply to Age, Race, Gender Bigotry Refuge Of Cowards

Not all youngsters or all oldersters have Competence, that is what matters not age, or even if they use DOS or something else, but how well the job is accomplished.

With age comes experience

In reply to Age, Race, Gender Bigotry Refuge Of Cowards

I believe it was Admiral Rickover (Father of the nuclear navy) that said “It is necessary to learn from other’s mistakes. You will not live long enough to make them all yourself”.

The older worker may be able to save the younger worker from learning the hard way.

It’s the Blend that’s important

In reply to With age comes experience

I guess that by the standards of most posters on this forum I’m an oldster (59). I’ve been the industry a long time and have learned that it is the blend of young and old that creates a vibrant successful team: the young enthuse the older and, if wise, realise that they can learn a lot from the older guys.

Gah you lunatic

In reply to Age, Race, Gender Bigotry Refuge Of Cowards

What the hell does age have to do with the price of fish??? thats madness, thats like saying my Dad is bigger than your Dad etc.. grow up, variation is the spice of life, in my experience should be judged on theyre ability to do a job, its a common problem nowadays that to many ‘IT professionals’ know how tyo do things but now why, WHY is the most important question in my opinion we need more people who understand WHY things happen not just the becasuse, generally “older” IT pro’s understand the WHY not the because, explain to me how that is a bad thing? learn from experience i say. What a bloody arrogant thing to say, you quite plainly have vailidity issues. And by the way i have only been in IT for 4 years. I suppose each to theyre own opinions. Even if they are blatently egotistical. At least you gave me something to Mock for half and hour or so… thanks for that. Your not an ‘IT salesman’ by any chance?

So true, but there is another piece.

In reply to Age, Race, Gender Bigotry Refuge Of Cowards

Everything the previous statement about a closed mind is true. In my experience I have found that the younger you are the less apt at thinking outside the box you are. Maybe us “old techs” had to “make” things that were not designed to mix work together and that gives us an advantage. Most of the younger “paper techs” I have worked with get stumped real fast when things go outside the book examples. The real world is not in a book. Experience counts.

Book Examples

In reply to So true, but there is another piece.

Sometimes the book examples don’t seem real to me… they are almost too pat, too perfect. You are absolutely correct when you say real life doesn’t follow the book. It never has and never will, in ANYTHING. Most boxes, by their very definition, are limited and narrowly defined. How can a best possible solution be found if you only have a narrow scope in which to view it?

Discrimination Unmasked

In reply to Age, Race, Gender Bigotry Refuge Of Cowards

Right on, ckoupal !!
Adam should go back to school, or church, or to a cave. When will
people learn that age, race, color, religion, sex, national origin,
disabilities, should not enter into the selection of competent
people? The IT field is already over-populated by white males —
don’t feed the bigotry, please. Hire on ability.

The other Skills Age can bring.

In reply to Discrimination Unmasked

Although the points about technical knowledge and depth of understaning are valid, there is another aspect of accumulated experience that can have dramatic effect on work performance.

How do you relate to other people? Customers, coworkers, bosses, or domain experts. If you have been developing communication skills and emotional intelligence you can be vastly more effective in real world situations. You must be able to elicit and understand the requirements of both the individual users and the organization as a whole.

Remember, for most programming projects only %10 of the time is spent actually coding.

Coding for 16 years, and still getting better daily,
Albion Zeglin.

I agree

In reply to Age, Race, Gender Bigotry Refuge Of Cowards

I entirely agree with you!
I’m 57 now and have spent some 36 Years Programming. I enjoy the job and and I do it all over again. For me it is only the attitute that counts. I want to keep working for as long as possible.
I have seen a lot of changes and am glad to have worked in a Field that offers so much new to learn.

46 years and counting

In reply to 20 years is a lot

my first computer – a tube job, with paper tape…

it is not your physical age, but your mental and emotional age –
i work with people who are “old” at 25, “young” at 55..
people who are afraid of new technology, who are so afraid of making mistakes they end up making the biggest mistake of all – do nothing but maintain the “status quo” – those are the “old” people …

currently i work for a very large firm – and i do all the “new” things .NET, Linux, interoperability, cross-platform wed pages, … and i mess up more often than not – but i also make some pretty incredible programs…

30 and out

In reply to 20 years is a lot

I’ve been in IT for 30 years so if someone younger wants my job they’re welcome to it. I’d personally rather being selling coffee at Caribou…

Yep. Just because they can talk the talk, …

In reply to In 20 years

they think they can walk the walk.

Just more proof of the proposition that youth is wasted on the young.

Amen

In reply to Yep. Just because they can talk the talk, …

Amen!!

It sounds to me like our young apprentice has closed his mind to many possibilities. It is a shame to see a mind wasted at such a young age.

Ask the company formerly known as NYNEX…

In reply to Yep. Just because they can talk the talk, …

…how far age discrimination got them in the early 1990’s. This old bat (56) IT director has taught many certified young pups how to logically troubleshoot problems for which they could not find the answer on TechNet or Google. And, yes, Virginia, the DOS prompt (cmd) still gets you out of the deep weeds.

In 5 years

In reply to In 20 years

The users will wonder why they can’t get the reports exactly the way they want like they used to be able to.

Reports – We need no Stinking Reports.

In reply to In 5 years

What makes you think the users will get ANY reports, in 5 years. “What’s a Report Anyway it wasn’t in my cert’s class!”
The kids today, you buy them books & send them to school. All they do is ripe out the pages and draw dirty pictures.

Reply To: Ageism? Good Idea?

In reply to Reports – We need no Stinking Reports.

Then eat the %*#$ book!

Couldn’t have said it better..

In reply to In 20 years

I used to have the attitude of only hiring young people in their twenties, until I found out that they didn’t give a crap about anything but themselves, and oh, BTW, they didn’t know more than 20% of what they thought they did. Now I have a crew of 40 somethings, that are all certified (the 20 somethings didn’t think that was important), are mature, appreciate the opportunity to break into the business at such an ‘advanced age’ and don’t complain about the occasional call from a client on a weekend. Putz is too kind for this person. Did you once work for me?

Not really the point

In reply to Couldn’t have said it better..

You are expressing essentially the same type of strange attitude as Adam. Discrimination is discrimination. Age, race, sex all the same. The only valid consideration is, “Can this person do the job.”

It is the point

In reply to Not really the point

hammeren has responded exactly to the point. robb is saying we shouldn’t even hire people beyond 40 something. hammeren is saying yes we should and here’s why. hammeren didn’t say we should never hire young people, only what experience he/she had by doing it.

I’ve had pretty much the same results. As the young get going, say around 20 or so, when you start thinking it looks like they’ll turn out OK, the arrogence kicks in. It seems like suddenly they think they know “everything” and nearly everyone else is wrong. But remarkably, they make just as many mistakes as other people. Maturity hasn’t yet brought them down to earth with the rest of us. When I hire people, one of my primary questions is ‘Can this person be taught?’. Generally if they already ‘know it all’, you can tell by the way they talk or conduct themselves and I don’t want them.

Putz is way too kind

In reply to Couldn’t have said it better..

Pushing 50, with over 20 years under my belt, I really resent this punk’s attitude. I have had several young, “certified” technicians forced upon me over the years by management, back when I supervised field support for a global client. I had no say in hiring these bozos, but I did have a say in dumping them… like hot-potatoes! I’ve had kids with their MCSE how couldn’t find Windows Explorer on a W9x machine!

And DOS? It’s not a question of whether you know DOS, but a question of whether you can work with a command line interface – DOS, FTP, TelNet, Lynux – and script those commands into a viable, much needed, off-hours process so you don’t have to sit there at midnight “dragging and dropping” files to a server in Brisbane!

Go whine to mommy, little boy!

Tolerance is a funny thing

In reply to In 20 years

Funny how the most intolerant people require the most tolerance from those around them.

Rob’s comments help me to understand how come some (not all) of these young IT screw so many things up. Some old geezer should put Rob out of his misery.

Misery? Me, Surely Not!

In reply to Tolerance is a funny thing

Hi and thank you for that.

I am 55 years old and I have been in the IT industry here in the UK for 15 years.

I wrote the topic because I wanted to provoke debate over an issue that rarely gets any air-time. It has been a very busy week. I have received some fairly abusive mail. No matter. I am happy to have made folk think. I just hope that those who do hire and fire have read this and realise that people like me have so much to offer.

Thank you for your time and interest. I do appreciate the response, even if you were being annoyed with me. Well, I deserved it.

Robb

Well Mate

In reply to Misery? Me, Surely Not!

This thing has exploded over night I hope you can keep up with it. 😀

Col ]:)

Stirring in up!

In reply to Misery? Me, Surely Not!

Hey, Robb! You really know how to stir thing up! You did a wonderful job of raising everyone’s blood pressure. But, you are right. So many employers feel that younger is better. Boy, are they in for a big shock!

Thanks for the excitement!

Wisdom over youth

In reply to In 20 years

I would employ wisdom (soundness) over youth. If both measure the same, I would go with the practical experience.

Age discrimination is wrong

In reply to In 20 years

I completely agree. It is not a matter of a person’s age, but what they know. Age discrimination is wrong, no matter what the case.

Agree except…

In reply to Age discrimination is wrong

Attitude is at least AS important as knowledge.

Oh really?

In reply to Agree except…

What is the point of a good attitude without the knowledge of the job and ability to use it? A good attitude is desirable. Knowledge and skill are indespensible I would have thought.

And what is the use of

In reply to Oh really?

Great Knowledge and ability if the person is never at work and when they do grace us with their presence PISS OFF the customer/end user by the lack of attitude to help solve problems?

I’ve seen some ankle bitters come up to an end user with a problem look see what is happening and then say that’s simple you should be more than capable of fixing it yourself and then walk away. The end users are not expected to know what happens on the inside of a computer or be able to name the different parts to many of them the computer is the monitor or that box that sits there gathering dust as it doesn’t appear to them to do much at all. These people are expected to at the very least be capable of driving one program depending on their job and maybe send a few e-mails nothing more and that is what a lot of the younger people fail to see they seem to think that as they know this everyone should. But you can not apply the same rule to them and expect them to act as well as a data entry person as they rebel and claim it isn’t part of their job.

IT is a support service only and nothing more, we are expected to implement the basic services for the business to work and are a means to an end not the end itself.

Col ]:)

I’m sorry

In reply to Oh really?

I thought it was clear that *both* are essential in equal measure. While knowing how to do the job is necessary, in order to do *ANYTHING* well, one must possess the *DESIRE* to do it well.

Yes, that last sentence is a little vague, yet not every IT position requires the same level of hardware, OS, network, software, code, or USER interaction.

If you want to keep user interaction to a minimum, DON’T do helpdesk or system support!

resistance to change

In reply to In 20 years

It pisses me off when somebody generalizes like that. I’m 57 I have a current MCSE (2003) I am an expert in rf lans, firewalls, and internet access devices. I still rely on principals I learned in DOS. HELLO computers still run on binary!!! Maybe you’re too arrogant and too young to learn something from someone older

Must be a fresh out of college grad.

In reply to In 20 years

Yeah, you guys are the valuable ones, I’ll tell ya. Say, and just how old was the instructor that taught you what you young geeks know today?? Nuff said – eventually, even you’ll grow up!

Probably the oldest geek here

In reply to In 20 years

With 30+ years of experience having started in the industry developing software, I’ve managed to adapt with the changes and am now almost totally involved with network administration and security. Being female, I was recently told that I don’t look like a geek (not sure if that is good or bad). My son, who is in one of the top 10 geek colleges still calls me for help with his computer issues. I recognize that my memory is definitely not what it used to be but fortunately my analytical skills and willingness to learn has not declined. So… I actually make the effort to take notes to combat the memory lapses and I still enjoy the work.

Yes, You Probably Are

In reply to Probably the oldest geek here

But you are also one of the wisest….

I am 55 years old and I have been in the IT industry here in the UK for 15 years.

I wrote the topic because I wanted to provoke debate over an issue that rarely gets any air-time. It has been a very busy week. I have received some fairly abusive mail. No matter. I am happy to have made folk think. I just hope that those who do hire and fire have read this and realise that people like me have so much to offer.

Thank you for your time and interest. I do appreciate the response, even if you were being annoyed with me. Well, I deserved it.

Robb

No, you are not!

In reply to Yes, You Probably Are

At age 57 I started my Master of Sciences in Information Technology Management. I completed last month at 59 years old! Am I old? Not a chanche, I am as advanced, if not more than most of all the NEW graduated in IT coming into the industry. The title of my thesis was: “The alignment of IT department with company objectives”, On my research I found very interesting factors and the first one is that the IT managers are not educated enough! Surely they can punch codes faster than me but are the right codes? I have a nice poster in my office it says: Funny how we never have enough time to do it right BUT always enough time to do it over! I always tell my team: Do it right first time! This is the difference between experience and inexperienced people. I wish there should be more “aged” people to teach the youngsters and inexperienced how to walk.

Thats Right My Italian Friend

In reply to No, you are not!

Hi and thank you for that.

I am 55 years old and I have been in the IT industry here in the UK for 15 years.

I wrote the topic because I wanted to provoke debate over an issue that rarely gets any air-time. It has been a very busy week. I have received some fairly abusive mail. No matter. I am happy to have made folk think. I just hope that those who do hire and fire have read this and realise that people like me have so much to offer.

Thank you for your time and interest. I do appreciate the response, even if you were being annoyed with me. Well, I deserved it.

Robb

35+ years. But, then, …

In reply to Probably the oldest geek here

I started at age 13.

You’re F*cking idiot

In reply to In 20 years

Not only is your arrogance showing, your inexperience and immaturity is as well. Go suck a pacifier and stay out of the computer room until you grow up.

It just might help a little if

In reply to You’re F*cking idiot

You took the time to look up this guys Peer Listing. When you have done that you are welcome to tell me who the idiot is. 😀

Sometimes it pays to research first and then shoot off your mouth. :p

Col ]:)

Feeling proud of yourself?

In reply to You’re F*cking idiot

Surely you’re not arrogant, inexperienced, or immature, are you?

In 20 years….(Reply)

In reply to In 20 years

Roger,
I agree with you 100% well said.

Troll?

In reply to In 20 years

Can someone define the term “troll” for me? Somehow I think it applies here.

Now Listen Here Wodger

In reply to In 20 years

Hi and thank you for that.

I am 55 years old and I have been in the IT industry here in the UK for 15 years.

I wrote the topic because I wanted to provoke debate over an issue that rarely gets any air-time. It has been a very busy week. I have received some fairly abusive mail. No matter. I am happy to have made folk think. I just hope that those who do hire and fire have read this and realise that people like me have so much to offer.

Thank you for your time and interest. I do appreciate the response, even if you were being annoyed with me. Well, I deserved it.

Robb

20 Year difference

In reply to In 20 years

When my son a certified geek-(22 years younger than I am)can’t figure out what is going on with his computer, whether it is hardware, software or whatever, he comes to me for answers. And I have them or know where to find them. I am the official supergeek of the family. Still learning, too. In a networking class at present.
Newbies watch my dust and kiss my — if you can get close enough.

Age doesn’t matter

In reply to In 20 years

I don’t think age is determining factor of anyones abilities. Some guys, like old wine, improve with age.
Lets face it we will soon be old too and I don’t we will feel its fair for anyone to refer to us as old and slow

Age is one measurement of experience.

In reply to Age doesn’t matter

I have 38 years of technical experience. Guess you would consider me to be an old timer. Two years programming in State Dept of Education and three in banking. Twenty-one years converting banks,providing support, and managing a data center processing eight banks. Managed a $32,000,000.00 Federal contract of 152 employees working three shift seven days/week for three years. Managed an AFDC Training Center for two years teaching AFDC Recipitants data entry skills and placing ninety-seven in full-time jobs with benefits. Taught Intro To Computers at local college in the evening for seven years and one year of summer school. Assist many neighbors with their computers. On Technical Committee to review/recommend county dept. of education IT curriculum. So many things so many times it begins to boggle my mind when I think about it. I worked 56 1/2 hours straight without going home,taking a shower, or brushing my teeth to solve a $46,000,000.00 problem. You don’t get many opportunities to do that or bond with co-workers in the process. Studied Visual Basic for six months, wrote about fifty programs, in the evening on my own to get the feel of it. In 1990 I was laid off from a downsizing situation. I borrowed a friends more powerful computer with $4000.00 worth of Novell training software and studied it ten hours a day seven days per week, tested myself until I felt comfortable enough to search for a new job. Started on a Novell job and converted to NT with over twenty servers. My mind is as inquisitive as it was over fifty years ago. When I was fourteen and no computers I met a retired Mechanical Engineer who became a close friend. He taught me many things. He could stand on his feet in his basement shop, Pall Mall in his mouth with two inches of ashes, carry on a conversation, be working with his hands on a project, and calculate any algebraic or mathmetical problem in his head concurrently. I know absolutely that all of us fall far short of our potential and we are just a flash in the pan in the grand scheme of things. There are only three or four things that have guided me through the years. (1) Like what you do. (2) Be dependable no matter what. (3) Maintain good health because you cannot work or play without it. (4) Help others when you can because it makes you feel good. Just remember the computer is a tool to help you play or work. Keep it sharp and keep yourself sharp. Learing this trade is a never ending process and you can become obselete if you do not stay with it. Criticism is only good if it is polite and helps to solve a problem. Some people call it sharing ideas.

Justifying discrimination??

In reply to In 20 years

The question is whether the person is up to the task at hand, not his age, just as the person’s sex or skin color should not be a factor in qualifying the person or not for the job. Discrimination is not an option in today’s world.
There will always be pro’s and con’s but the bottom line is: can the person get the work done in a timely manner?

Reply To: Ageism? Good Idea?

In reply to In 20 years

Amend.

true to an extent

In reply to Ageism? Good Idea?

Brains become more ridgid with age, so new ideas may be harder to grasp (there are exceptions). But you can’t put wisdom in a book and have someone young read it and hence accuire it. Its all the non-programming aspects that make us better programmers that count for this wisdom. Part of that wisdom is accepting that younger people can out perform you on a line-of-code-by-line-of-code basis. But they can’t lead a team, etc. Its the understanding of the processes of a successful IT department and company overall that is wisdom.

Natural progression is something along the lines of hacker -> student -> internship -> programmer
-> senior programmer -> architect -> business analyst -> project manager -> development manager -> CIO/CTO. By the time you have the CIO/CTO, you have finished an MBA.

Most smart ones leave at the programmer or senior programmer and end up with their own companies as owners. It is the corporate route I’ve shown. The academic route is a possibility too.

I agree that usually seeing a 70 year old writing .NET code is something weird. But I would not be so quick as to dismiss their work. If they have experience and the experience shows the ability to always adapt to new methodologies (not just languages), I would guess it is their love of the work that keeps them productive.

They can give you lots of pointers about life in general too.. Like your grampa!

My $0.03

“Brain become more rigid with age”?

In reply to true to an extent

What the hell is that to mean, and where’s the proof?

Grey matter

In reply to “Brain become more rigid with age”?

It’s a common misconception that the brain declines in the same way the body does. Sure, some areas of brain function (e.g. memory) can become impaired with age but the brain does not suffer from ‘mechanical’ breakdown as the body does. Basically- use it or lose it.

memory is key

In reply to Grey matter

Memory is key to learnig new things. If you admit that memory goes with age, then you admit that older people learn new things with more difficulty, since part of learning is retention.

The barrier to learning

In reply to memory is key

is knowing. Someone who thinks they know it all, doesn’t bother to learn. Some of us have been around long enough to know we don’t know sh.1.t. That’s nothing to do with age, it’s attitude. I haven’t lost it as I’ve got older, in fact if anything over time I make less and less assumptions about what I ‘know’ and not because I’ve forgotten it.

Got to agree with you on this one Tony

In reply to The barrier to learning

I’ve seen far to many graduates coming out thinking that they know it all when actually they don’t even know what sh## is.

I’ve always liked one of Uncle Albert’s sayings that goes something like this “No person should be allowed to leave College without know just how little they actually know!”

That College degree only gives you the right to go out and start learning your trade nothing more nothing less you have been given the basic ground rules and from there on you have to learn what must be adhered to and what can be bent a bit and what can be ignored totally and just how these rules change with changes to technology.

As the Resident Dinosaur here I’m constantly being approached by the younger know it all for a solution to their problems which they can not work out for themselves. One actually accused me of being a Know It All Bastard because I could always answer any of his questions in a few seconds and most of those he had being bashing his head against a brick wall for days. I use to drive him crazy until he figured out that I knew a little and whenever he ran into a problem instead of attempting to work it out for himself he just asked me.

I called it cheating he called it using the resources available to him.

Just think when we all start using Linux or M$ Unix what I learned all that time ago will again be not only useful but important again.

Col ]:)

help the needy

In reply to Got to agree with you on this one Tony

I always ask the more seasoned employees around the office if I don’t know the answer. Just as the less experienced ask me. I don’t think there is any harm in that. It is why the seasoned guy gets paid more than the newbie.

Don’t get me wrong I’m all for helping others

In reply to Got to agree with you on this one Tony

But there are times that I do feel that I’m being used when I see others take the kudos for work that they have done after getting me to fix problems that they have created.

They are only too willing to take the praise and promotions for the work which wouldn’t have got done without my help and then I don’t get given any of the credit for their so called excellent solutions.

I suppose that is why I got out and started my own business and what made it even worse is that most of the time me being their manager was the one recommending them for promotion for their work.

It was just that I didn’t like it when they got all the praise from those higher up the food chain and I was starting to be treated like a non-person who was only there under sufferance as so much more work could have been done without me being there. But the really funny thing was that once I left and went out on my own every one of the staff who was under me followed me and what was supposed to be a small operation with a lot of free time turned into a full scale operation and I’m back where I started.

The holiday lasted all of about 12 hours. 🙁

Col ]:)

You don’t learn any

In reply to Got to agree with you on this one Tony

A college degree does not mean you know anything. It simply means that you have been trained how to behave (and that is corporate needs).

Dinosaurs are always kept around so as to make sure all newbies stay in check and not misuse company resources and time – like writing irelevant programs such as java applets and javascript games

don’t be so hard on them

In reply to Got to agree with you on this one Tony

“As the Resident Dinosaur here I’m constantly being approached by the younger know it all for a solution to their problems which they can not work out for themselves.” If they are asking for your help or advise on a problem it shows respect for your knowledge. The beginning of wisdom is admitting that they don’t know everything. “none of us is as smart as all of us”

Actually I’m not being hard on them

In reply to Got to agree with you on this one Tony

But I do start getting a bit offended when I’m expected to “KNOW IT ALL” and am treated that way. I do know just how little I actually know and am constantly working on learning much more but it just gets to me when I’m considered as “The Resident Expert” and called that by the younger guys. 🙂

I just reply something along these lines X = The unknown quantie and a Spurt is nothing more than a drip under pressure. 😉

I just hate being in a position where I’m expected to know it all, all the time I just can not put up my hand and ask for help when I run into problems as I’m expected to fix things almost before they break and know what is going to happen again almost before it happens. I’m supposed to fault find things in a matter of nanoseconds even if the problem lies somewhere in a couple of hundred thousand lines of code. 🙁

I’m really not being hard on them it’s just unfair that I’m the one who is constantly expected to know it all and have the answer to everything. 😉

One of my staff said to me a few years ago when I first meet you I thought you where a Know It All Bastard and when I got to Know you I realized that you are a Know It All Bastard but you really do Know It All. And at the same time was was bashing my head against a brick wall with a problem that someone else had produced and I couldn’t find easily and when I asked him to help me find the problem he just said you are testing me again aren’t you? 😀

God I hate it when I’m treated that way. 😀

Col ]:)

Quite right.

In reply to The barrier to learning

The American Indians have an adage which describes the issue you address.

[i]”As grows the circle of light, so grows the circle of darkness.”[/i]

I.e., the more we come to know, the more we grasp the depth of our ignorance.

The more you learn the less you know

In reply to Quite right.

The more you learn the less you know.
Ask any dinosaur – any body can write a program but very few newbies can actually write a program that anybody but theselves can actually use.

Wow – thats really cool

In reply to Quite right.

Great saying. One might say it’s deep.

This punk has got to be kidding. He’s going nowhere fast until he learns the value of experience. He should ask his girlfriend about that………

100% agree

In reply to The barrier to learning

but I did see a funny key ring once that said, ‘People who think they know it all really bother those of us who really do.’

Assumes facts not in evidence.

In reply to memory is key

That one might not easily retrieve data stored long ago does [b]not[/b] mean that new data cannot be easily stored & retrieved.

Reply To: Ageism? Good Idea?

In reply to Assumes facts not in evidence.

How any users can remember what’s in that word perfect file on their network drive with the 1989 file date? (I’m in the process of cleaning up the server :))

Maybe Adam D. can help you with that.

In reply to Reply To: Ageism? Good Idea?

Assuming, that is, that he’s young enough.

Funny you should mention

In reply to Reply To: Ageism? Good Idea?

Word Perfect. It’s still my preferred Office Suite and I use it all the time admittedly I’m now up to version 12 and it has so much more to play with than Office and now is completely interchangeable with the M$ standards.

But every one of the people who work for me where died in the wool Office people who would sneer at me for using such an old program and not getting with the times now they not only want WP installed on their workstations but are demanding it there and wanting Office dropped as they now prefer it to the M$ offering. 😉

The current version of WP can open both WP and Office documents without a single problem or loss of formatting be they word, Excel. Power-point or whatever Office on the other hand can not do the same to any WP documents. :p

Just be careful removing any old WP files as quite a lot of them are very useful as they have the basic templates for most of any business forms.

Also they are quite often the ones used when downloading some of the older forms to comply with Government Requirements as these tend not to change often and can stay the same for years at a time.

Col ]:)

Brain wipes.

In reply to Reply To: Ageism? Good Idea?

MS software contains subliminal text designed to wipe newbies’ memories of any recollection of non-MS products.

It works so well on some that they really believe that Word Perfect, Word Star, Lotus 1-2-3, Quattro, etal. are nothing but myths.

I remember…

In reply to Reply To: Ageism? Good Idea?

Alright, so i’m ultra organized. I maintain a database or spreadsheet with the location of every file I have, what platform the file is in, the creation date, the last update and a brief description of the file contents. It was the only way I could keep on top of all the documentation I wrote and when it was updated.

Wordstar? Gosh that takes me back…

In reply to Reply To: Ageism? Good Idea?

I can remember using it on the first IBM PC’s that came out. We’d use it for word processing and for writing our cobol programs before running them through the cobol compiler.

You guys sure know how to make a girl feel old…er. Older, I mean.:P Never thought I’d be old enough to say ” I remember when…”

Unisys mainframe operator?

In reply to Reply To: Ageism? Good Idea?

Now you’re [b]definitely[/b] showing your age! Welcome aboard.

I still use VisiCalc & WordStar, on a Tandy 4-P, at home; they may be old, but it’s hard to beat their speed when running under CP/M, TRS-DOS, LSI-DOS or even MS-DOS.

What a complete crock. I don’t know what rock you’ve been hiding under…..

In reply to memory is key

but when I’m looking for inspired bug free code I won’t get it from some snot nosed newby who doesn’t have the experience to be able to visualize the needs of the end user never mind grasping the concept of the project. There are people who have 20 years experience and then there are the people who have 1 year of experience repeated 20 times. Some newbys can be very, very good but in general the majority are still getting their feet wet whereas the older guys with 10+ years under their belts run circles around them and the 20+ year guys ride herd on the whole bunch. Show me the newby that can read raw code, regardless of language, and recognize the routine and which app it fits. Sunshine, you’ve got a long way to go before you start putting down the older guys. They may not have the certs or diplomas that you have but I’d bet dollars to doughnuts that those guys will knock out more bug free code in a day than you will in a week and thats 30+ years of experience from a guy who signs pay checks. You’re talking the talk but you have to stand erect before you walk the walk.
Addendum re: recompense. The reason wrinklys drive hot cars is because we can afford them and buy them unlike wannabes who lease them. Wannabes understand the cost of everything and the value of nothing. Doesn’t it gall you when some old fart buzzes past you in his ‘vette or Jag with some hot little honey in the seat beside him. That’s ’cause he can afford the car and her and she knows it whereas with you, unless you inherited it or are dealing on the side, she figures you as a shot in the dark. Mull that one over.

Dawg ]:)

Sunshine?

In reply to What a complete crock. I don’t know what rock you’ve been hiding under…..

I thought that the underside of rocks were dark.

Maybe he’s just now crawled out, and is still blinded by the light.

do you remember what I wrote?

In reply to What a complete crock. I don’t know what rock you’ve been hiding under…..

I was strictly talking about memory and retention. You seemed to have taken it personally. If you read my other post, you prove my point about wisdom. I have relatives in their 50s and 60s that are in IT and they’re great. I’m humble enough to say that my memory or ability to pull allnighters, etc has deteriorated over the years. The body and the mind will deteriorate. Fact of life. Accept it.

Retention is best at age nine. Does that makes 9 year olds the best IT workers?

Since you are making this personal, as per your old farts in mid-life crisis cars, etc.. are you one?

Yes, Adam, we do remember what you said.

In reply to do you remember what I wrote?

While it may not be what you [i]intended[/i] to say, you said that we are too old to effectively learn.

And, calling us “old farts” serves what purpose, other than to suggest an age bias on your part?

R U a MORON or Just have sh?t for brains?

In reply to do you remember what I wrote?

No moron, I read your original post. Do you know how to recover a DEAD/Screwedup registry hive? One way is thru, oh my God, DOS… Oh, I forgot, you’re too young to grasp that old concept, Sh?t-for-brains. You’re from the UK? That makes you a LOSER… I see your future!!! You might be just good enough to sweep the floors at McDonald’s. Oh, I forgot, that’s an old concept that you can not GRASP, again!!!! Why don’t you just shoot yourself and do the world a favor……………

Amen brother!

In reply to What a complete crock. I don’t know what rock you’ve been hiding under…..

I totally agree. I was intimidated by the notion of going back to school in my 40’s. I had already learned most of this on my own but I thought that I would be surrounded by young people who were smarter than me. WRONG. I was way more serious about school than they were and made the deans list. They were always gathered around my desk in the morning of test day to get answers. They were not always bright enough to know that I often times fed them the wrong ones on purpose.

In my experience the younger ones are quicker to complain while those my age are quicker to roll up their sleeves and find solutions.

That has been my experience

In reply to Amen brother!

both professionally and in the classroom as an instructor. There appears to be a lack of self-motivation in the younger group. All I do know is I would make myself available for questions after class and the only people that took advantage was the older group coming back to get the “paper” behind their credentials. 😉

Yes, Adam, we do remember what you said.

In reply to What a complete crock. I don’t know what rock you’ve been hiding under…..

While it may not be what you [i]intended[/i] to say, you said that we are too old to effectively learn.

I’m with the flea bitten one on this

In reply to What a complete crock. I don’t know what rock you’ve been hiding under…..

I know that I will always go ask the old guy when I get hung up if one is around. In my case is is the old gal, but I guess that would be another thread entirely.

I could just Google 90% of what comes up, but I can’t ask Google to explain why this or that happened and what would be the best way to prevent it in the future.

dbl

In reply to What a complete crock. I don’t know what rock you’ve been hiding under…..

dbl, can’t delete

Thanks for the vote of confidence

In reply to What a complete crock. I don’t know what rock you’ve been hiding under…..

I’m glad someone in this conversation has some appreciation for us old folks. I am a 55 year female and spent 20 years as a Cobol programmer. I am now back in college getting a degree in Computer Technology just so I can handle the next generation. You can teach an old dog new tricks you know, and once they learn them they can put a whole new spin on the outcome.

Is that so???

In reply to memory is key

If age is an obstacle to new learning… why is it that, at age 50, I am the one who updates my junior (in age, not job position) collegues of new innovations that I have discovered through self study, or perusing the net? They seem to have gone to, and completed school, then halted their education at that point, while I keep learning.

Mpls JCC, Jon?

In reply to Is that so???

Did you work there in the 70’s?

No I did not.

In reply to Mpls JCC, Jon?

I started this job as a second career after retiring from the first career.

I have worked here since 2002.

Do the math

In reply to Mpls JCC, Jon?

I am in my early 50’s, I am newer than the youngters. Did I work here in the 70’s? Not likely. I was in my late teens early 20’s in the 70’s. My first career took 20+ years.

I’m not that old

In reply to Mpls JCC, Jon?

I worked at my first career for 22 years, now I’m on my second career. I have worked here since 2002.

It’s because that have reached a stage

In reply to Is that so???

Where they think that they know it all but not the stage where they have enough experience to realize just how little it is that they know. 🙂

The better ones eventually grow out of this and start learning again just about the same time that they realize that they have entered the hardest school of all the University of Life. 😀

Col ]:)

When the young ones start in their teens knowing everything…

In reply to It’s because that have reached a stage

What is the world coming to when teenagers think they know everything and no-one can tell them anything, but then when they screw something up beyond all belief, they deny that it was anything they did? It’s an awfully hard thing to have to put up with day in and day out. It’s hard from kicking them in the butt and telling them ” You made a mistake, you screwed up. Now, find what you did and find a solution to fix it.” I don’t blame people for making mistakes – I hold them responsible for denying they did anything, even if you SEE them do it and can show them logs. Denial is a river in Egypt and they aren’t in Egypt.

92 year-old grandma

In reply to Grey matter

I taught my 92 year-old grandmother to use email. If she heard the comments about hardening of the brain she take the punk over her knee, spank him and toss him out the window.

This was a great motivator to me. It was more than once that staff commented to me how “refreshing” it was to have a “mature” person to come work on their problem instead of the usual 20-something-goateed kid. Hmmm.

Me thinks this attitude exists only in the minds of the 20-something and has no basis in fact, nor does it accurately reflect the neds/wants/desires of the customer, be they internal or external.

In my experience people like someone they feel is seasoned.

Does anyone want a Doctor right out of mdeical school or would you rather have someone with some time in?

Totally agree….

In reply to 92 year-old grandma

I totally agree with you. Life time experience and know-how is way ahead of learning on the go from books and diploma.

Experience is part of life, you should try to gain as much knowledge as you can from these people. This is what you call WORK EXPERIENCE and it’s worth a lot of diplomas.

Very good example, I, myself would choose a doctor with experience. This says it ALL.

Totally agree….

In reply to 92 year-old grandma

I totally agree with you. Life time experience and know-how is way ahead of learning on the go from books and diploma.

Experience is part of life, you should try to gain as much knowledge as you can from these people. This is what you call WORK EXPERIENCE and it’s worth a lot of diplomas.

Very good example, I, myself would choose a doctor with experience. This says it ALL.

Exercise your brain

In reply to Grey matter

Agreed. Studies have proven that although memory does seem to decline with age, those who actively study and work out complicated problems have very little change. In fact those who regularly work on tough logic problems are likely to have better memory at 70 than their 20-something counterparts.

The fact that you may be trying to recall something from 50 years ago vs them recalling something from 5 years ago is hardly a good comparison of IQ.

Speaking of IQ, there is a reason that your raw mental age score is divided by your actual age. If you took two people with the same IQ and different ages, the older one would actually be the one who knows more.

IQ resource: http://www.geocities.com/rnseitz/Definition_of_IQ.html

And on the subject of Age vs IT ability: In my early 20s I was humbled by a 65 year old consultant who’s ability to design “systems” was simply amazing (at least to me at that time.) His only shortcoming was actually implementing them. It wasn’t mental ability that was the critical factor, it was his refusal to spend time and effort keeping up to date on new technology.

Since then I’ve realized that how lazy someone is has far more to do with their abilities in IT than their age. The one exception seems to be in the area of planning. The older IT folk tend to universally (even the lazy ones) anticipate potential problems better.

For example, if I hand our intern a programming assignment for a web app and also assigned it to a senior programemr, the intern would almost certainly have a working web app done first. But it will also likely have serious security holes and be near impossible for anyone else to maintain.

Fast forward 12 months and ask for some moderate revisions to the web apps and you’ll likely see considerable re-write of the intern’s code along with even more security holes being opened up. The expeienced programmer’s code, on the other hand, will probably only require a few changes to the modules involved with little or no increase in bugs or security holes.

More Rigid with age

In reply to “Brain become more rigid with age”?

It’s true, the older (more experienced) we become the more we refuse to make the same old mistakes AGAIN. Because some inexperienced kid (the boss ?) just thought it up and thinks he is blessed with “The Original Idea”. He’s too young to know, like most things being today, it was done before with different hardware or operating systems limitations.

The only thing that gets more rigid with age is …

In reply to More Rigid with age

the part that women accuse us of thinking with.

Wouldn’t touch that…

In reply to The only thing that gets more rigid with age is …

With a 10 foot pole. Might be considered Harrassment.

What, you won’t touch my arthritic hand? That’s age discrimination!

In reply to Wouldn’t touch that…

I can see you fit right in here with the whole sick crew.

Brain is a muscle, the more you use …

In reply to “Brain become more rigid with age”?

At age 57 I started my Master of Sciences in Information Technology Management. I completed last month at 59 years old! Am I old? Not a chanche, I am as advanced, if not more than most of all the NEW graduated in IT coming into the industry. The title of my thesis was: “The alignment of IT department with company objectives”, On my research I found very interesting factors and the first one is that the IT managers are not educated enough! Surely they can punch codes faster than me but are the right codes? I have a nice poster in my office it says: Funny how we never have enough time to do it right BUT always enough time to do it over! I always tell my team: Do it right first time! This is the difference between experience and inexperienced people. I wish there should be more “aged” people to teach the youngsters and inexperienced how to walk.

Reply To: Ageism? Good Idea?

In reply to true to an extent

Just because an idea is new doesn’t make it good. That’s why we have Republicans 🙂

I’ve seen some pretty old 20 year olds

In reply to true to an extent

Old is a state of mind, not a state of body, so I would disagree with your assertion that the mind becomes more rigid with age. SOME people learn to fear more as they experience more, so their range of comfort shrinks. Also, I don’t agree that youngsters can outperform ‘oldsters’ on a line by line basis. In the 20 or so years I wrote code, I think I only got better (and faster) as I got more experience. The larger the base of experience you have, the fewer mistakes you make and the larger the bag of tricks you have, so you can determine faster, the best solution to a problem. The trick is to not let yourself be boxed in by your experience, ie, maintain a flexible approach to any problem. People are individuals, and as such, when we make assumptions about them based on classifying them through some general, external characteristic, we are bound to make mistakes.

Boxed by experience..

In reply to I’ve seen some pretty old 20 year olds

Sometimes you get boxed in by experience by those around you (or above you) through no fault of your own. I keep getting pigeoned holed in application support because no one knows our applications and how the different components of our system works as well as I do – not even the programmers who wrote the programs. I’m working on my MCSE+Security, but they don’t want to work with Security, or networking, or Windows. They figure if I work in another area, they loose my expertise with the applications. I keep trying to tell them I can do both, but that I’m not going to be stuck in the hole they’re putting me in. It’s not my fault that they aren’t forcing the younger people to take responsibility in learning the applications.

You are just plain wrong.

In reply to true to an extent

Debug your logic: I speak to your various assertions for which you don’t even offer anecdotal evidence.

“Part of that wisdom is accepting that younger people can out perform you on a line-of-code by line-of-code basis.”

No, they cannot. First, not very many people can type faster than me. Second, I write “good code” and do not need to re-do much of it. That falls in the “work smarter, not harder”. Third code writing speed has no logical causality with regard to code quality.

What is weird about a 70-something writing .NET is WHY IS HE DOING IT? It’s like a video game — for the most part, only teenagers play video games because while they are doing so, more normal human beings are earning money, building families, reproducing the next generation AND by so doing, establishing the social norms.

I’ve asked many people what is so special about “.NET”, including a Microsoft Ambassador at the university (usu.edu) and the replies are fuzzy at best, especially if I ask, “What can .NET do that cannot be done any other way?” The answer is, and must be, no answer at all. .NET is an environment that aggregates pre-existing technology, some of which may be better off not aggregated.

The most efficient client-server applications need not use port 80 or HTTP. HTTP is inherently not suited to interactive work. The most efficient applications profile the workflow and find the point where the least communication takes place, breaks it right there, everything on the right is CLIENT and everything to the left is SERVER. Do it yourself, do it in “C” (*anything* but Visual Basic!), and blow “.NET” away.

I don’t understand

In reply to You are just plain wrong.

What do you have against .NET. I don’t get it. You just seem to irrationally dismiss it. When I first saw it I thought it was kind of stupid too. I didn’t want to switch and have to learn something new when the old way could do it as well.

It’s not a matter of .NET being able to do anything incredibly advanced that you can’t do another way. .NET just makes it easier. I work for a company that does .NET programming almost exclusively. (And for the record, I am 20 and I am already managing 2 projects. Not all young people are stupid or useless. But then again neither are old people. There are many, many older people in my life that I appreciate in so many ways. I wouldn’t be where I am without some of them. So to say that old people can’t do these things anymore or to imply that young people can do it better is ludicrous.) Anyways, I don’t understand you’re hostility towards .NET. You just finished saying that no one could give you good evidence to back up their claims, yet you continue by doing the same thing.

Give .NET a chance. Yes it is M$’s option, but I personally find it an extremely easy to use environment. And before people start ranting about how I don’t understand what’s behind it or how to do it the hard way, perhaps not in the real world, but in school we did have some exposure. And in the “real world” .NET is an extremely useful tool. Give it a chance.

.NET not wrong, just different.

In reply to I don’t understand

.Net has nothing wrong with it. It works as a “binder” in tying other things together. .NET is neither better or worse than other systems, it is only different. The bias against .NET (I suspect) is more an anti-Microsoft bias than a valid refutation of the value of .NET. In fact, .NET does have a place but is not the only answer. HTTP, FTP, TCP and IP all fave their place and each does what they do very well, to tie yourself into or push away from any of these entirely is nothing but a bias that limits your potential and displays an inability to “think outside the box.”

Line of code to line of code

In reply to true to an extent

Well, first of all I type at about 80wpm and compose code on the fly with few debugs.

When I am training a new person, I ususally have to slow my coding down so they can follow what is happening, and my debug is nearly as fast, so that is not an age restriction type of thing. I do have hearing aids in both ears (and they don’t nearly replace good hearing) and I also wear glasses and have glaucoma, all of which are part of the aging processes coupled with diabetes. I am also beginning to have some carpel tunnel, a normal result of over 40 years of keyboarding. But I am still pretty astute, and a real DOS/Apple OS/CPM/RTOS/UNIX/LINUX coder. I think I now work in about 18 languages, and have experience on about 10 OS’s, most of which are still in place. I also still own my Altair 8080 and have programs it can run.

GUI’s are great for users, OK for some kinds of debug, but to get into the nitty gritty of coding, to understand real time issues, and to deal with some forms of latency, you need far greater skills than you can master in a GUI environment. You also need to know what all those bits mean. I have written assemblers (not assembly code, but the code that understands assembly code). And I can tell you that developing one good real time application with disk I/O and some DSP in it will show you where your weaknesses are.

However age and speed are not equivalent in coding until one reaches well into their 70’s these days, and I know of a few in their 80’s that aren’t too bad. Most of us carry a PDA, a cellphone (or a combo device such as the treo), use Sat nav, deal with the internet for research and for sales of goods and services.

It’s just not an age thing, but rather whether or not you do your homework. And whether or not you continue to polish your skills.

Regards,
Les H

sure, and get your

In reply to Ageism? Good Idea?

company bankrupted payig off the settlements for discrimination lawsuits.

any form of discrimination should not be promoted in any business.

I won’t hire anyone that isn’t comfortable with linux. ( windoze free workplace )

55?

In reply to sure, and get your

What are you going to be doing at 55?

Depends on the road

In reply to 55?

At 55 I will be doing the speed limit, on most secondary roads.

Now where is the fun in that?

In reply to Depends on the road

I’m working very hard on growing old disgracefully! :p

Currently I’m not there yet but I’m trying at 55 I plan on being able to drop my Ducati into top gear and be doing at least 3 times the speed limit on back roads much more fun and the fuel economy isn’t bad either! 😀

That monster of a thing at minimum RPM’s the speed limit on open roads = 2 nd or maybe 3 rd gear I like to drop in into top and have the needle up near the RED LINE. 😉 Otherwise you have to keep pulling the top off the motor to clean it up. 🙁

Col ]:)

What is that???

In reply to Now where is the fun in that?

What’s a Ducati? Australia has speed limits? What is there to hit but dingos, roos and Uluru?

Just kidding. I know there is a lot more to Oz than that, but I couldn’t resist. Kind of pointless since you’re in NZ anyway, right? But I still don’t know. What’s a Ducati?

Just bought a piglet

In reply to Now where is the fun in that?

hi, Col,
I am 59 and just bought myself an 883 Sportster. It’s just a small Harley, but they tell me it will hit 116 anyway. I don’t plan to check that out, but I love it anyway.

Regards,
Les H

You must not live in CA

In reply to Depends on the road

55 will get you run over here.
But back on topic, I’m 59 and just finishing a BSIT (finally decided to get the degree). I have worked over 40 years in electronics and computers, and love the challenges, enjoy the hardware aspects and the software challenges.

BUT! Windows as a business OS (other than email or browsing) just annoys the **** out of me. (and it doesn’t do the first two all that well either).

LINUX shows real promise, but comeon, there must be something in the wings that manages to have a GUI but still remains fast and secure.

So I went back to school. Unfortunately it appears that our colleges have forgotten about innovation, about what makes us powerful, and how technology innovation can drive our world.

Maybe I am an old fart, but I do know that we need something more powerful, more able to take advantage of the innovation of our many talents, and to be more useful to the vast majority of users. Unfortunately I just do not yet know what the definition and needs really are. I think Microsoft is on the right track, but lost in the technology battle. I think Linux shows promise, and I think that the real innovators required for the next “PC/APPLE/OSBOURNE” revolution are still out there somewhere. One of us here may know who that is, or what that new OS is, and if so, please tell them to get on with it, or get our help to bring it on.

And I did read that Robb started this thread to get us all fired up. Looks like he succeeded.

Regards,
Les H

You must not live in CA

In reply to Depends on the road

55 will get you run over here.
But back on topic, I’m 59 and just finishing a BSIT (finally decided to get the degree). I have worked over 40 years in electronics and computers, and love the challenges, enjoy the hardware aspects and the software challenges.

BUT! Windows as a business OS (other than email or browsing) just annoys the **** out of me. (and it doesn’t do the first two all that well either).

LINUX shows real promise, but comeon, there must be something in the wings that manages to have a GUI but still remains fast and secure.

So I went back to school. Unfortunately it appears that our colleges have forgotten about innovation, about what makes us powerful, and how technology innovation can drive our world.

Maybe I am an old fart, but I do know that we need something more powerful, more able to take advantage of the innovation of our many talents, and to be more useful to the vast majority of users. Unfortunately I just do not yet know what the definition and needs really are. I think Microsoft is on the right track, but lost in the technology battle. I think Linux shows promise, and I think that the real innovators required for the next “PC/APPLE/OSBOURNE” revolution are still out there somewhere. One of us here may know who that is, or what that new OS is, and if so, please tell them to get on with it, or get our help to bring it on.

And I did read that Robb started this thread to get us all fired up. Looks like he succeeded.

Regards,
Les H

Surely you jest.

In reply to Ageism? Good Idea?

If not, you obviously lack sufficient knowledge & understanding to work for me!

And Now The Truth

In reply to Surely you jest.

I am 55 years old. I am a sebnior network systems engineer and instructor, plus a whole bunch of other stuff.

I wrote this topic to provoke debate over a very important issue. It has achieved just that.

I would love to work for you.

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

Robb

wonderful

In reply to And Now The Truth

Something tells me most of the people here don’t hire trolls, either.

Being young won’t get you a job with anyone with two brain cells to rub together. Neither will being old.

Older, but obviously not wiser

In reply to And Now The Truth

You, sir, are a liar.

You say you “wrote this topic to provoke debate over a very important issue”. However, your original post said “Do we really want to have old geeks in our industry? Isn’t it time we came clean with the truth and said it like it is?”.

You are guilty of misrepresentation and being disingenuous at the very least. You did not seek to provoke debate, you simply sought to provoke.

You should have been up front at the very beginning. Your presentation of the issue did not generate intelligent discussion, it simply brought out a great many people taking you to task for what appeared to be a discriminatory attitude that we now know you in fact do not possess.

Serious debate provides learning. We learned nothing from this…other than the fact that you’re a liar and a provocateur. You’ve forced us to wade through a number of posts that are ultimately irrelevant to this “very important issue” in order to find the one or two nuggets that actually provide some intelligence. Thanks for wasting our collective time.

Apologies

In reply to Older, but obviously not wiser

If I misrepresented, or caused anyone any upset, I apologise unreservedly. It was never my intention to lie to anyone, just to provoke debate.

If I had ‘come clean’ at the beginning the debate would have been pretty poor and interesting people like yourself, may not have been inclined to make a comment.

I thank you for that.

Robb

Mission accomplished

In reply to Apologies

Too bad it was the wrong mission.

You provoked debate, all right, but had you shown more respect for your audience and explained the real issue you wanted debated you would have gotten back a lot more responses with much deeper and more meaningful analysis. Instead, because of your misrepresentation of your own position you generated a referendum on your own personal discrimination. You made yourself the issue instead of the real issue, which as you correctly pointed out is indeed very important. Nice job.

You had an oppportunity to educate. You had an opportunity to change minds, and there’s not much more powerful than that. You had an opportunity to provide insight on behalf of all of us geezers who are, or have been, or could be, victims of age discrimination. You wasted a golden opportunity. Proud of yourself?

A little over the top

In reply to Mission accomplished

While I can understand your displeasure with Robb’s approach I found your posts to be just a tad over the top.

If you were really that offended then why even bother to post a response.

Serious bizness

In reply to A little over the top

Agreed. The main reason I usually avoid discussion boards is born out in the replies above. Too often it seems that some feel the liberty of “anonymity” to ignore conventions of civil discussion. Others simply take themselves too seriously.
If Robb had come out on the board as they suggest it would have been just another boring topic. Stirring up feelings on all sides will tend to produce something more like honest responses. Perhaps it is the honesty that was provoked that some find offensive. Gee, that is too bad. Yawn.

Yes, age discrimination is common in the IT industry. My employer has been (is?) very good at dumping the >55 assets and dodging the resultant law suits for years. Flocks of lawyers are more cost effective. Who would have believed That?

No, But…

In reply to Mission accomplished

With respect, I think, at least from here, that you are being a trifle harsh.

I meant no harm and only wanted to bring to the attention of the cosy and sleepy the difficulties that we have when we get passed 45. That’s all. Nothing more.

I did not expect quite such a massive response. But I am happy for others that I hope might benefit from this exercise.

I never did this for myself. That was never the thrust of the topic. I did it because it needed to be said. I stand by that decision and I am prepared to suffer the slings and arrows of that outrageous fortune (to quote my famous countryman).

I am sad that you have not found anything positive in my attempt to high-light this injustice.

I wish you well and hope that you will never have to struggle to find work when you are of a mature age.

Best regards

Robb

Nothing like being exposed..

In reply to Mission accomplished

I’m a little late in this debate and I find it quite entertaining. Funny how people get on a band wagon when they think theyre agreeing with someone, only to blame that person when they look stupid once the truth is exposed.

I’m in the over 40 group and employed two months in this biz. I’ve worked full time and been a parent while obtaining my degree and holding a 4.0 gpa doing it. I may not be able to run as fast as I once could, but I can think as fast as any person I’ve met in this business.

Fortunately, I was hired by a 3o something manager with the confidence and wisdom to see the value in having an ‘old fart’ like me around.

Great topic Robb, keep those mental juices flowing…

speaking of time wasting

In reply to Mission accomplished

You are so proud of your accomplishments you don’t even fill out your profile. But that’s ok.

Your number of replies in these forums says a great deal also. But the truth is that this is a rancorous debate. It is often glossed over with lots of “make nice” by HR folks, and by companies, but the real truth is that it is not age that is the problem, but that they think the job is so easy that anyone can do it, so they refuse to believe that we are worthy of the salaries we command. At least until they parse off all the senior people and find themselves without a company. You cannot survive on bias and bull**** for very long.

I think your heart is probably in the right place, but this comment is so stuffed shirt that it is painful to read.

I love this work, but I am retiring for personal reasons. I am envious of those that continue to carry the torch. Cluster computing, demand computing, wireless, the high speed serial stuff, all are great evolutions for this industry. AI, voice, notepads, and technologies on the horizon are wonderful, and I have had a great career with three of the largest ATE companies in the world. It has been wonderful, but don’t go stiff on us. There is more than enough starch in the world. The innovation suffers, and the world is poorer without the color.

Happy new year, mr amcol, whereever and whoever you are.

Regards,
Les H

With respect . . .

In reply to Apologies

How long have you performed research and debate issues. I recently started a discussion and never resorted to what you did here. You can ask people, especially professionals for their input on a topic. You would be surprised at the result.

Instead, your method alienated people here at TR. Which could affect responses to future postings. It may not have been your intent to offend, but sometimes you need to think about how you approach a situation.

The phrase “you get more with honey then vinegar” comes to mind.

That’s A Good Point

In reply to With respect . . .

I can only hope that many will not see it that way. But I do accept that you have a valid point and although I do not agree, I would defend your right to make it.

Let’s hope that when this furore had died down, people will reflect in a more philosohical mood and be less unforgiving. Whether or not you are inclined to agree or disagree, the fact remains that the over 45s are treated (in some cases) very badly in our industry. And that cannot be right. I wish to bring that to the attention of as many people as possible, in the hope that it might inspire change.

In the meantime, I wish you well and thank you for your comments, which I receive in good grace.

Robb

Figures

In reply to And Now The Truth

When I read the post, I figured it was a troll.

Glad to see I’m old enough to spot a faker.

Having read your TR profile, I suspected as much.

In reply to And Now The Truth

Thanks for causing some of the kids here to expose themselves.

I’m 59.

What is the truth?

In reply to And Now The Truth

Ahhh. You succeeded in drawing us all out.

You also did a great job knocking off a young smart-aleck. The sad truth is, what you wrote is often true in the hiring place these days.

Good luck to you and thanks for throwing a little gasoline on the fire…

Not At All Old Boy

In reply to What is the truth?

Thank you, I needed a little friendly support.

I have been surprised at some of the silly comments I have received as a result of my subterfuge (did I spell that correctly? Never mind). I knew it was going to be interesting, but it has been overwhelming.

We can but hope that good will come of it.

Happy trails

Robb

Ah… The light dawns!

In reply to And Now The Truth

So you’re not advocating the practice of discrimination based on age. But rather, want to trigger discussion on why such a policy is bad. Okay, I can live with that!

S’right

In reply to Ah… The light dawns!

I knew that many would become passionate and many would become defensive. Others would be aggressive and some stupid in their silly remarks and nihilistic in their opinions.

However, I am not easily swayed. Brits are tougher than that! I feel very strongly that this issue needs an airing. Judging by my mailbox and the responses on this web site, I was right.

I believe that this topic holds the record for responses over a short period. Let’s hope that something good and positive comes out of it.

For myself, I care not for the stones tossed my way (Robb May 11th 2005!)

Very best regards

Robb

This was obvious!

In reply to And Now The Truth

It was easy to see this was a setup, but interesting just the same. I have just completed a network engineering diploma and I am 43 (and a restaurant manager, hows that for learning something new). Whilst most of the students in my classes were around 20 they always came to me to see how to do something, so they are not so good at learning new things apparently. I might add when something is changed at work strangely enough it is the young ones who seem to rebel the most. Also, as new languages are developed they are becoming more englished orientated so from what I have seen here we are in real trouble.

Careful there skippy..this is grounds for discrimination suits

In reply to Ageism? Good Idea?

As much as us young folks detest working with old geezers who were masters in Cobol and Mainframes and have no clue how to use Windows XP or surf the web, companies cannot simply give them the boot without shooting themselves in the foot with age discrimination lawsuits and unethical practices of forced retirement. True, older workers may have a hard time finding new work today, unless their skills are so unique that some young kid can’t do it. But for those who are already employed and in their 50s’, companies cannot simply force these people out, even if these employees don’t do much, without making it look suscpicious and inviting a nasty age discrimination suit in which they will lose a lot of money. The company I work for, an international law firm, still employs some old timers back from when they had a mainframe, but since those days are long gone and we are now a Windows 2000/Netware shop, they have been retrained and are now writing software in modern programming languages instead of Cobol and DB2. Yes, a lot of them are old enough to be retired and in old folks homes, but the company obviously has a business need for them and thus leaves them alone. Also, it’s easier to retrain old employees who know your system, than to hire new ones who know nothing about where you were and where you’re going with your systems.

Furthermore, we geezers are …

In reply to Careful there skippy..this is grounds for discrimination suits

FAR from clueless.

We’ve got far more clues than the young can imagine that they will ever have.

The American Indians have an apt adage, [i]As grows the circle of light, so grows the circle of darkness.[/i]

Simply put, the more one knows the more one becomes aware of the extent of his ignorance.

It is the young who are truly clueless.

And the older folks

In reply to Furthermore, we geezers are …

Know how to get around things like the (endless meeting) the (9to5) worker time and how to get out of the office before every one else. Ask a older worker about what is going on/ with out acting like you know every thing. You might be impressed with what he/she knows. I just taught a young person how to by pass the IP firewall to get to a site that was blocked. And it was a easy thing to to do for me.

I rather work with the “oldtimers”

In reply to Furthermore, we geezers are …

anyday of the week/year/etc. I learn a whole lot more and am more productive. That isn’t to say I can’t work with the younger crowd, but I find a willingness to share knowledge and be polite about others shortcomings in the older group.

My closest colleagues are all over 55. I love working with them and EXCHANGING knowledge. Sometimes I show them something and sometimes they show me. As I said before, it isn’t about age. It is about knowledge and interpersonal skills.

Diversity is a win-win situation.

In reply to I rather work with the “oldtimers”

In all matters, I find that being amidst a diversity of people brings the benefit of a greater inflow of information & the joys of new discoveries.

Very true

In reply to Diversity is a win-win situation.

that is very true. I have found when there exists a great amount of diversity, the challenges are greater, but the benefits are much more worthwile.

However, when it comes to motivational situations, if I have to choose, I would choose the older techies. Less stress trying to get things done. With the younger crowd there appears to be resistence.

‘Twixt & between.

In reply to Very true

It’s all a matter of getting the right mix.

Sometimes, the exuberance of the young proves to be an important ingredient for achieving quick results.

And sometimes

In reply to ‘Twixt & between.

the old people have that same young heart. You are correct though that it takes a good mix of people, personalities, and skills to build something positive.

Older and smarter? ask Bush

In reply to Furthermore, we geezers are …

I am only 39 years old, but sure wish I knew half as much as I know now when I was at twenty one years of age.

I can hardly wait till I am 60 years so that I can be as smart as Bush, make as much money as him, and have ties to all the monetary giants in the world.

Young people are ignorant, naive, and can be fed with all the latest bovine manure. They make excellent marines. We need the youth to clean up our mistakes, which we just shuck off as experience.

I sure was frightened for the last 20 years knowing that any time I could be call off to war and fight the old geezer?s war. Now I am older, smarter, richer, wiser, and will also exploit the youth for whatever its worth. Yes, that is all gained through experience, (trial and error), which the youth is just starting to experience.

Yes, as we get older we definitely get smarter, it’s just that our bodies gets weaker, especially our neck muscles, and it makes our heads droop, causing some of the brain matter to leak out.

I sure envy the older guys. They have all the money, girls, positions, brains, and most of all the power of influence. I can hardly wait till I am 60.

BTW, I do have a 20 year old girl friend which I am going to cash in when she turns 40 for 2 twenties.

You might want to wait a little bit past 40 …

In reply to Older and smarter? ask Bush

before trading her in.

Women reach their sexual peak well after men do.

Women in their 40s are also much more comfortable with their own sexuality.

All told, they are then most desirable.

I suggest you keep her until she’s 60, and then trade her in for two 30 year-olds.

Older workers

In reply to Careful there skippy..this is grounds for discrimination suits

What you said is very true, especially about law firms. They are culturally different than the corporate world. Most attornies don’t come into their own until they have 20 or 30 years of practice under their belt. The staff at many mid-sized or smaller law firms is also older. Its all about maintaining relationships with clients in a law firm. An older staff worker that knows the clients for years is a valuable asset to the firm.

Law firms face problems sometimes with people that are older that can’t perform their jobs anymore. It is a real dilemma for them that they handle very tactfully because of age discrimination issues. Some people just don’t know when its time to fold’em.

Older workers that are motivated can offer a breadth of knowledge to any company that is only acquired by years in the job. Many companies don’t want bleeding edge; they want stability, practicality, budget-conciousness and knowledge of their particular system. Younger workers that have never cut their teeth in Corporate America probably wouldn’t be happy in these scenarios. This is the realm of the “seasoned professional.”

I hate being called “seasoned” because I’m older. I might season my steak, but I’m not a piece of meat because I’m older. I understand what the meaning of it is, but its almost a derogatory remark in a way.

Seasoned, hmmmmmmm…

RE: Careful there skippy…

In reply to Careful there skippy..this is grounds for discrimination suits

Wow, you have a lot to learn.

Your “old geezers” are not necessarily there to be tolerated by you. Just because they were writing COBOL code before you were toilet trained does not mean that they are not competitent at the IT tasks of today.

The “old geezers” understand the business, they understand the history, and they know how the world works.

The company does not leave anyone alone. In these times if a person is not pulling their weight they are gone no matter the age if a company can show cause.

Dress up your attitude and have some respect sonny.

Just a do-nothing-oldster

In reply to Careful there skippy..this is grounds for discrimination suits

Well, I have to say this. With Age and Experience, you find out how to do things right the first time, so no, we don’t keep banging the keys. Writing software is a mental exercise, after all, and that comes inside, not throught wasted action. I retired recently because I don’t like windows because it is an absymal OS. And that is on a good day. It crashes, it takes millions of cycles to do simple things, and it is simply the poorest written software available as an OS. Marketed well, but still not a good sign of engineering. It is like a Japanese car of the 1950’s.

With that out of my system(S), Where did mr Robb learn abuot computers? Did he read any of the books by Marvin Minsky? Did he read any of Lance Leventhal? How about Steve Ciarcia’s books? Perhaps from Julio Sanchez or Maria Canton? Does he know how old these folks are?

Did he go to school under some 25 year old professors? Or did he learn from the old folks he is now disparaging?

Regards,
Les H

You’ve got a lot to learn, Robb

In reply to Ageism? Good Idea?

Robb, remember that what goes around, comes around. You won’t be young forever. I’ll admit that most of the really significant science that gets done is done by folks under 32. Check your history for that. There are many exceptions.

In a well-run shop, there is a range of experience and age from the “newbie” to the “geezer”. Each has a contribution to make, and not all of it is in writing code. Sometimes it is very valuable to avoid making the same mistake over and over, which the young tend to do. The old folks, having made the mistakes before, avoid them. The smart young learn from the mistakes of others. The dumb young insist on making their own mistakes, often with sequels. The tone of your post suggests that you are in the latter group.

And Now the Truth

In reply to You’ve got a lot to learn, Robb

Hi and thanks for your contribution to this debate.

I am 55 years old/young(?) and I wrote the topic to create a response and a debate. It worked. didn’t it?

Thank you for your kind response. I agree with you and thanks for your comment that I “belong in the latter group”. made my day!

Robb

And some of us keep learning

In reply to You’ve got a lot to learn, Robb

I probably fit your definition of “geezer”, having taken early retirement in 1998. On the other hand, my IS degree was awarded June 2002 and the newest platform I’m programming for is the Palm (a real shift of mindset from desktops and servers).

I’ve worked on teams with people younger than my children – most recently developing a Web-based scheduling system for a military agency (VBScript, Javascript, IIS, SQL Server).

What things of value did I bring to the team?
1. Ability to take the long or wide view. A lot of my code that was created under “we gotta get this done tomorrow” constraints had “this should be done ” comments. For the military project, is being implemented two years later in a rewrite that’s taking longet and costing more than if it had been done that way initially. (My unofficial rule is one hour of missed coding = one week of rewrite – think about the number of dependencies that exist after a year.)

2. Knowledge of many technologies and business operations.
This provides me with a broad understanding of processes, which means I have the skills to ask the right questions when interviewing a subject matter expert and to do effective research (Internet or paper based).

3. Practice in meeting deadlines and completing paperwork.
I met all of my deadlines and helped other people on the team meet theirs.

Am I working on the military project now?
No. They thought they couldn’t afford me last fall. The current version of the system was delivered early this year with obvious problems and they didn’t provide fixes until two months after the due date.
I have gotten feelers from the new project manager. Will I go back with them? I’m not sure. I might not want to join a project run by young IT people when it’s already three months behind schedule…

John

Well yes who needs an old guy

In reply to Ageism? Good Idea?

Just getting in the way! You can learn any thing you need off the internet. And you went to the best schools and receieved the top grades! But wait a second the teacher was an old guy, the things he taught you were from an old guy. The new stuff that you are using came from an old farts ideas. I bet what ever you can think of the old farts have thought of.
I give you a quest, find out what we could not about the net and not just about the end and the next net. How about the next net and how you will reach it. Tip the sky is not the last place to look.

Who needs an old guy?

In reply to Well yes who needs an old guy

A young woman.

LMAO..Anna Nicole Smith comes to mind

In reply to Who needs an old guy?

the best example I can think of

A young woman.

In reply to Who needs an old guy?

Would kill you mate but at least you would die with a smile on your face. :p

Col ]:)

They’re more than welcome to try.

In reply to A young woman.

While their numbers are dwindling, there have been numerous cultures where the practice has been that one first marries an older person, who will teach you; and, following their death, you then marry a younger person and teach them.

A rather logical practice, don’t you think?

Sounds good to me

In reply to They’re more than welcome to try.

There have also been cultures where the women are handed around to any male visitors as an act of acceptance to the dwelling. In these cultures it is not only considered as an unpardonable sin not to accept but you are inviting a good bashing as well.

Col ]:)

Ah, for the good old days.

In reply to Sounds good to me

I’m thinking about becoming an orthodox Mormon.

Don’t do that again!

In reply to Ah, for the good old days.

It’s going to take ages to clean up the monitor screen. 🙁

When I read your post I had visions of a cartoon I saw ages ago with a guy trying to hide on top of a closet and a bunch of women fighting among themselves each claiming that it was their turn tonight.

The Guy was saying he needed rest and the women where working out in what order they where to be serviced. 😀

Col ]:)

Or, maybe Jewish.

In reply to Ah, for the good old days.

I am led by some to understand that there are many Jewish woman who maintain that men have a religious obligation to service their women; some to the extent that one woman alone is too many.

Actually Sandy

In reply to Ah, for the good old days.

That idea was brought about by Traditional Jewish Beliefs where the man was obliged to service the woman every day except on the Sabbath there where a few exceptions however if the man had a heavy job like being a camel driver he was allowed to only perform 3 times a week.

Some Orthodox followers of the Jewish Religion follow these teachings and some don’t but basically as Gret has confirmed that the house is the womans domain and in it you do as she wants.

But personally I’ve found that works best all the time with any woman as they like to think that they control the situation so I just agree and shut up and do as I please.

And YES I’ve learned my lesson no more drinks when I open one of your postings. :p

Col ]:)

What, no libations? Please don’t say that …

In reply to Ah, for the good old days.

I’m to blame.

Can you ever forgive me?

Orthodox Mormon?

In reply to Ah, for the good old days.

Is there any other kind?

Cleanliness is next to Godliness, Colin

In reply to Ah, for the good old days.

Did you get your screen clean? I thought it was pretty funny, actually. And I really needed a good laugh. Thanx ever so much.

What about Pagans?

In reply to Ah, for the good old days.

No moors or limitions to deal with. It’s all a celebration of the Circle of Life.

Very logical

In reply to They’re more than welcome to try.

>While their numbers are dwindling, there have been numerous cultures where the
>practice has been that one first marries an older person, who will teach you; and, following their
>death, you then marry a younger person and teach them.

>A rather logical practice, don’t you think?

An extremely logical practice considering the fact that most kids leave home UNTRAINED and head to college/life/factory etc.

Eminently logical.

In reply to Very logical

My parents provided me absolutley no information re. sex. As a result, while in high school, I engaged in great deal of reading on the subject, with a particular emphasis on what pleased women.

In college, I was surprised to find our how little most guys knew on the subject, and how dissatified their partners were with the results.

What about their reactions when their partners

In reply to Eminently logical.

Asked for something that they didn’t know about?

I always found their actions funny when faced with this as they seemed to think that they knew it all while knowing nothing.

Col ]:)

Ignorance is bliss?

In reply to Eminently logical.

When, that is, they turn to someone else who’s NOT ignorant of their needs & how to satisfy them.

The really fun part is when the jilted guy tries to save face with his friends by trying to lay (no pun intended) the blame at the feet of his now former girl friend.

You can’t train someone

In reply to Very logical

who doesn’t want to learn and/or think they know it all already.

Is that where the accusation

In reply to You can’t train someone

that their gf was frigid came from? Doesn’t seem very fair. Wish Males came with product manuals. Might make them easier to understand.

Women are young at any age …

In reply to A young woman.

At least some of us are. 🙂

No matter the gender, some of us are forever young.

In reply to Women are young at any age …

Others, old well before their time.

Would be exhausted

In reply to A young woman.

but at least when finished, would know

1. It’s called Assembler for a reason

2. Systems architecture is not merely passing objects

3. Have a working knowledge of UML

4. And know that a smile lasts longer than a laugh

A young woman?

In reply to Who needs an old guy?

Hummmm Well ok that will be ok if she understands that computers are eleet and can help with 4fleetdls. And wipes the drives when needed!
Sorry I reverted I would love to teach a woman about computers, and have her do more then I have done. Woman are alot better then guys in getting things done. Because they finnish things and most guys dive into a project but will not get it done because another job comes up. We need a womans touch, And I mean on the job!

We all have our talents; and, needs.

In reply to A young woman?

As for myself, I enjoyed teaching.

I find that, in general, younger people not only have more to learn, but they are generally more eager to explore.

That’s because…

In reply to A young woman?

Women are master Multi-taskers. Hmmm… Maybe our salary compensation should be based on tasks completed. Might actually get us up to par on the payscale.

I dare a young woman

In reply to Who needs an old guy?

To try to temp me! No I double dare them too. Just do not tell my wife. I never said this and you can not prove it:)

Dare?

In reply to I dare a young woman

hmmm you say you didn’t say it and cannot prove it, yet it is posted for all to see with your handle attached to it. Can you see the hole in your logic or do you need it highlighted in a different color? LOL

By the way, your wife alread knows.

Umm, not me that’s for sure!

In reply to Well yes who needs an old guy

Thanks for your comments to my topic Ageism etc. I agree with you and I think if you take a moment to read my topic Prejudice and cynicism in the IT sector, IMPOSSIBLE!, you will get a clear idea of where I am coming from.

Thanks and well done.

Robb

Hire the best

In reply to Ageism? Good Idea?

When I am in a position where I am involved with the hiring decisions, the nod goes to the most qualified candidate.

An older candidate often has an advantage.

First of all, they have learned people skills. They can listen and interpret what the actual problem the user has is.

Secondly, an older IT person does not have a need to implement new technology just because it is new. He / She is not afraid of new technology, just cautious.

Where I work, DOS and “OLDER” languages are still in daily use. Not because of any fear of new technology, but because we use a lot of custom code that just won’t run on new hardware or under XP.

Hire the person with the skill set you need. Youthful enthusiasm does not always make up for solid OTJ experience.

Chas

An Observation

In reply to Hire the best

Where I work we have had both young and old in out IT department, non as old as I, but we have some folks in there 30’s, right out of college and new to IT. I’ve noticed these guys learn just as well as the younger guys, but with a big difference. First of all they never pretend to know everything. They are quite willing to ask for help and always more cautious. They rarely do anything dangerous. The more important thing I’ve notice though is that they are generally better liked than the young ones. We’ve had a couple of real young guys that were almost universally disliked for talking to the end users like they were morons.

Egomania among younger IT workers

In reply to An Observation

I agree with the notion that younger IT employees tend to talk to end users in a very condescending and demeaning manner and lack customer service skills. The older guys have had their share of tongue lashings and warning and know better than to resort to being wise asses and mavericks when it comes to implementing something on the network. I know because I used to be one of those young punks with an attitude and I ended up losing a consulting job because of it back in my early days. It takes a good ass kicking and losing ones job for reality to set in and quickly set someone straight about proper behavior in the workplace.

I’ve been around for 100 years…

In reply to Egomania among younger IT workers

A little testosterone and a lot of naivete can go a long way can’t it. Comparing IT methodologies to driving a Ferrari leads me to think that the owner of this thread would much rather be pumpin and jumpin than taking a serious and responsible approach and discipline with his work.

This is the problem with the current generation. They perceive that there is a silver spoon hanging from their lips – the problem is they don’t know $hit from $hinola LOL!! Give ’em ten or 20 and they’ll catch up.

Old Fart Integrator

Agreed

In reply to Egomania among younger IT workers

I’m a youngish buck (30) and I was pretty brash in my early years as an IT consultant. I had a great mentor. He let my brash attitute get me in trouble, but he also backed up my good ideas (that may not have been fully thought out). He gave me the ability to THINK and ACT in a professional setting while working with others.

I think the best combo is a brash young kid and the old jedi. I’m in the middle now and I’m teaching those brash young kids. They have some good ideas, but they can’t always answer the hard questions, nor can they actually implement what they talk about…that isn’t to say we shouldn’t listen to ’em.

The old jedi some times are inflexable and set in their ways. Sometimes they only want to do things that they have done before and don’t want to take the risk of trying anything new. However, the old jedi usually knows better and should be listened to.

Where am I? Somewhere between brash young kid and old jedi. I still go off half cocked sometimes…and sometimes I have a great idea that falls flat because I didn’t think it all the way through…I still have my homeruns and my great ideas, but I’ve become more conservative and more thoughtful about my actions (and the effects they will have not just on the system I’m working on, but globally). Of course, now I am the jedi master to my young padiwans. My students are going to go out in the work force well balanced and strong in the force…So if you need a young padiwan, I have a few for you…

IT + Inflexibility = Wrong job market.

In reply to Agreed

I think anyone involved in IT today MUST be flexible. It is an unwritten requirement and must be so, since IT changes on a daily basis.

I have an Ego, but,

In reply to Egomania among younger IT workers

I was taught from a very young age, you leave your ego at the door when you go to work, just like you leave your personal problems and issues. Doesn’t seem like that’s adhered to much anymore.

Here, Here

In reply to An Observation

In the last 10 years I have been in IT, the one thing that always stands out, Anyone can learn IT, but common sense and people skills cannot. I find the older people new to IT have better people skills
then those that are much younger. I do have a few young techs with great people skills, but sometimes there troubleshooting can slow them down.

Do the Brass of your Mil clients know about your attitude?

In reply to Ageism? Good Idea?

Best keep it a secret.

There’s no more sure fire way to piss off an experienced officer than to suggest that he’s too old for the job.

There’s an old saying in my native language

In reply to Do the Brass of your Mil clients know about your attitude?

which I will translate into English that talks about old people and experience

“Ne oochiy papoo kak pravelno yebatsya” in Russian

which means “don’t teach your father how to properly f**k” in English

Ya punemyou pa-rueski ochen ploka.

In reply to There’s an old saying in my native language

Ti punemyou pa-angleeski?

Da, ya ponemayu po angliskiy ochen horosho

In reply to Ya punemyou pa-rueski ochen ploka.

I am bilingual and fluent in both Russian and English

After 30+ years of disuse, …

In reply to Da, ya ponemayu po angliskiy ochen horosho

I’m sorry to say that I now recall but a small bit of converstional Russian, and my skill at reading it has become non-existent.

And, I hate having to try to emulate Cyrillic on an English keyboard; too many phonemes that just don’t translate well at all.

Doughbree dyen.

ya toje

In reply to After 30+ years of disuse, …

ya toje fsio pa-ruski zabuile

Pearavadeetya pa-angleeski, pajaalsta.

In reply to ya toje

As noted above, after 30+ years of disuse, my Rooski is quite rusty.

A Little Risque….

In reply to There’s an old saying in my native language

Thanks for your response. I am glad that my topic has inspired you to make a point.

However, my wife speaks Russian (she is Ukrainian) and she doesn’t recognise your Russian ‘saying’. I think you might have made it up. Nothing wrong with that. After all, I made up the topic, which was rather underhand, at least according to some.

I wish you well and hope that you support my contention that it is unfair, and unjust to discriminate against mature workers.

Happy Trails

Robb

Old ‘n’ Gold

In reply to Do the Brass of your Mil clients know about your attitude?

Thanks for your comment on my topic Ageism etc. I very much appreciate that you were moved to respond.

Please be kind enough to read my new topic Prejudice and cynicism in the IT sector, INPOSSIBLE. I think that you may find that we are not too far apart.

Thanks again for your contribution.

Robb

Well a good start to make sure you got

In reply to Ageism? Good Idea?

a response.
I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’re not a complete idiot.
Second thoughts I’m not until you prove you deserve that level of respect sonny.
If 90% don’t know what DOS is , does that mean only 10% know what they are talking about ?
As for employing a 55 yeal old, as ofr a devloper, if I could work with them, if the knew the fundamentals (I don’t need to read a list of f’ing certs, to know that), and if they had the experience comensurate with their age, then I’d certainly consider then as a useful resource. It would all depend on the make up of teh current team. You need a mix of age/experience. All young or all old you are going to have have people making the same mistakes the old folks made years ago, or a an instant massive skills gap when they all retire.

Brilliant!

In reply to Ageism? Good Idea?

I cant remember seeing a more perfect discussion topic for guaranteeing that people click on your profile link (hoping to discover your age), and thus on the links to your various business websites!

Well done!

“The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.”
George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)

He definitely gauged

In reply to Brilliant!

his audience, fetched a big pile of irrascible ‘old timers’ out to justify their existance in the glaring light of youth as it were.
We may have a budding ProteusX here, can’t wait till he weighs in to trounce the young whipper snapper.

backfire

In reply to Brilliant!

There’s a decent chance of backfiring, though. I’m making notes on possible businesses to avoid, thanks to him.

And Now For The Truth

In reply to Brilliant!

I admire your own cynicism. I am sorry if you think that I was being ‘cute’ by starting the topic.

Let me explain. I am a 55 year old network systems engineer and instructor. I train military personnel for the transition to civvy life. I find that many people are very concerned about thier age when wanting to train for work in the IT industry. Most of the people I train are over 35 and have 12 to 22 years in the military. I tell them that our industry is tolerant and values experience. However, I did a little tril here in the UK. I made myself unemployed and applied, properly, for over 100 vacancies. I told the truth about my age and I placed a current photo of myself on each CV/Resume. I have not had one single interview.

I then set about writing a CV for a youger man, incuding all the same information. I put a photo of myself when I was 30 on the CV. I have received an interview offer for 75% of the applications I have made using that CV.

I wrote this topic to create debate. Thankfully it is an issue that many of us are concerned about. Including you, it seems.

Thank you for your contribution. However, please try not to be so cycical. It really can deny you an opportunity to seek and see the truth.

Thanks again

Robb

Ah

In reply to And Now For The Truth

But you’re not being cynical enough yourself. I had looked at your websites, and could immediately see that nobody involved in a business such as yours could possibly have the crude attitudes you were expressing. So I had no doubt that you were attempting to stimulate a genuine debate.

Just couldn’t resist winding it up a notch.

Anyway, to return to the point….

As your quite extensive experiment proved, the IT industry exhibits ageist attitudes.

This ageism partly derives from another characteristic of the industry, which is that it’s reasonably meritocratic (or, perhaps more accurately, technocratic).

This might seem surprising. If success and advancement are due largely to merit and/or technical ability, then surely age is of even less relevance than usual?

However, a consequence of the rapid reward and advancement of individuals based on their ability, skills, and results is that they are often moved into positions of some authority at quite a young age.

It’s normal in the IT industry for people in the age range of 28 to 35 to find themselves in “leadership” roles. They are responsible for running projects (often very large projects). They are responsible for running departments. Part of this responsibility is usually recruitment.

They might not have the final say on recruitment, but they’ll often be doing the initial screening of cv’s, and the early interviews.

Now, it’s a common failing of us all, that we can feel insecure about managing a subordinate who’s substantially older than ourselves. This is particularly true when we’re young and (relatively) inexperienced.

So, as a 30 year old PM putting together our project team, or as a 32 year old Helpdesk Manager filling a support vacancy, it can be daunting to consider a 45 year old applicant.

This partly reflects the lack of management training in the industry. We respect and reward technical ability, and assume that a technically competent individual will somehow be a good manager!

The early rewards available in the IT industry are a good thing, and many of us on this discussion site will have benefited from them. The downside is that many important decisions (such as recruitment) are being made by people who may lack the maturity and life experiences to fully inform those decisions.

Good Point

In reply to Ah

In many cases highly competent technical people are promoted to supervisory or management positions for which they are ill prepared or ill suited. That usually happens because an employer wants to retain competent, hard working people and promotions into supervisory positions are the only way to provide adequate compensation.

I’ve seen many cases where less technically competent people made better managers due to their people and political skills. The converse is also quite true, i.e. good technical people can make poor managers because they lack those skills. I was one of those that had no business in a management position. Just wasn’t cut out for it and it didn’t work.

My previous employer recognized the situation and created a senior engineer/technical specialist position on the same salary level with engineering supervision to reward highly skilled personnel that weren’t candidates for supervisory or management positions. Many other employers could benefit from such an approach.

Dalton

Let me ask this question

In reply to Good Point

For some reason, I have been reading here at TR quite a few discussions about the only way to reward effective technical people is to promote them in order to pay them what they are worth.

Why? Why not just give them the pay increase? Why is the title of supervisor or manager important? If you think money is the answer, then just give them the raise or a bonus. No promotion necessary.

However, if the person really wants to become a manager/supervisor then provide a career path mentoring system so that when they are promoted they are ready and so is their replacement in their old position. Just my opinion and something I found effective in one of the companies I worked for, until senior management changed and decided that wasn’t the way it should work. Not surprising how fast the top performers left.

Never so simple

In reply to Let me ask this question

The practicality of different ways of structuring remuneration and managerial responsibility is directly connected with the size and nature of the company, its industry, and its business context.

It’s obvious that the way in which a 10-employee owner-operated business might deal with this issue is quite different to the way in which a 40,000-employee trans-border multinational might deal with it.

Unless you’re a one-man show it’s NEVER as simple as “just give them a pay increase”!

If you’re a medium to large business then you’re critically affected by legislative obligations. The definition of “medium” and “large” varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but typically if you have more than between 20 to 50 employees you’d fall into the “medium” category. The raft of employment law with which you have to comply is daunting!

Let’s take just one example. Most countries with reasonably advanced economies have gender based Equal Pay laws. Employers can be required to prove that two people in the same position, doing the same job, are paid the same irrespective of gender. This requirement alone effectively makes it impossible to “just give them a pay increase”.

Now start to think about all the other legal and practical issues that need to be taken into account. How do you establish comparable pay rates between similar positions in different parts of the country (what do you do when the employee to whom you “just gave a pay increase” moves from the NYC Head Office to the research facility in Sante Fe?). How do you establish comparable pay rates between similar positions in different departments (say between 1st line Helpdesk in IT, and data entry clerk in HR?).

And so on, and on, and on.

If you’re a small business then, thankfully, you’ll usually be exempt from most of the legislative stuff. And, perhaps even more thankfully, you’ll probably not have to deal with either trade or staff unions. But often it’s the human factors that are amplified.

For example, you have a dozen employees. Two of them provide a technical support function. They each do much the same job, are each technically competent, and are both valued workers. But one of them has that knack of dealing with external clients. How do you recognise and reward this skill without devaluing the other employee? Indeed, should you reward this skill? If so, how do you even begin to measure it’s value to the business?

Again, it isn’t a matter of “just give them a pay increase”.

I don’t deny the other factors

In reply to Never so simple

that you bring up. My feeling was that the other poster said they HAD to promote them to give them more money. My point (not articulated well enough due to my emotional response to the previous post – sorry) was why not look for other ways instead of promotions if the person doesn’t want a promotion.

There are legal ways that you can use to motivate someone and reward them for their value added to the organization. I worked for one of those medium to large international companies. As I said in my post they came up with things. For example, bonuses, performance rewards, trips, and many other things.

All I am saying is that we don’t have to promote people who do not want that position to find a reward. You are very correct there are a myriad of legal issues and cultural issues to navigate. That is part of the role of true leaders within the company though, isn’t it?

Actually it is very simple to get around

In reply to Never so simple

All that is required to do is take the worker off a wage and place them on a salary.

You do not need to do anything more and because they are on a salary their payments can not be questioned.

When I worked for a Boss things like that happened almost on a daily basis.

Col ]:)

Not Necessarily Small Companies

In reply to Let me ask this question

The company that I referred to in my response was not a small company. In fact, it is one of the largest investor owned electric utility corporations in the US (2nd largest when I left).

No matter the size, critical concern is retaining competent technical employees. Plus, in many cases, it is preferable to keep an expert out of a supervisory position and in the trenches where they are more productive and create more value.

Dalton

Only if . . .

In reply to Not Necessarily Small Companies

that is where they want to be. See that is the problem. Companies want to keep employees in the roles they see as benefitting the company the most. What about what the employee wants as a career path. If you really want to keep that expert, and they want to be a supervisor, then have them train their replacements (yes plaural) and then promote them or provide the opportunity at least for them to lead.

By training their replacements, they learn something of leadership, management, and supervisory skills and can re-evaluate if they want that promotion. Just some food for thought.

In the Trenches

In reply to Not Necessarily Small Companies

Speaking as a person who was put in a supervisory position and hated every minute of it, I am back in the trenches – although in a Job Title. What I’m doing now isn’t much different that what I did 14 years ago when I started. The only acceptions being I no longer print, nor do I do any work on a mainframe. Even though our Applications have gone from being Mainframe based, to being server based to being Web based, the functionality of the applications hasn’t changed – I still provide the support for the applications.

Well….

In reply to And Now For The Truth

Robb: I think you’ve touched upon a topic many people looking to enter the IT industry fear. After many years as an admin assistant, I decided to pursue a career in IT. My first choice was programming, something which I very much enjoy. However, being a female in her late 30s, and after hearing comments similar to the topic of your original post, I changed course for fear that no one would hire me over a recently-graduated young male. I’m now close to getting my MSCE cert and still worry about this being an issue. But I think this fear only encourages me to keep learning new things.

I do think that age discrimination does sometimes occur in the world of IT, but I also believe it occurs in most other industries as well.

Here is a thought

In reply to Well….

The only profession that age is not discriminated against and where age or lack of is a disadvantage is Politics.

Now who wants a 20 year old person representing them in Parliament or whatever?

But the sad thing is it is the people who are way too old and I don’t necessarily mean in years here who do get involved in politics and even then mostly for the wrong reasons.

So we see these old geasers and then think “Thank God I’m not working with them!” And then proceed to not want anyone even close to approaching their age to be working for us.

A good example where leading from the top isn’t a good thing. 😀

Col ]:)

How ’bout leading with the chin?

In reply to Here is a thought

I’m not a Leader – unless I have to be. i’m not a follower when I believe something to be wrong, so I have a tendency to take the knocks in the chin for being neither/nor. Guess that’s why i’m a political fence sitter and not affiliated with any political party. Does that make me more part of the problem than the solution?

so long and thanks for all the fish ..

In reply to And Now For The Truth

While I must admit to getting a little bit steamed in the early going of this thread, it became more interesting (as time passed). Thanks robb for jump-starting our own thinking processes and allowing us to look inside ourselves once again.
Cheers, mate!

Tis illegal in the USA but …

In reply to And Now For The Truth

Thank you for raising this topic. I once placed my resume for a job at a consulting firm and had a call within one hour. Later I went in to get an application and that was the last I heard from them. The only new intelligence they had was my age.

It is illegal here and can open the company up to a law suit. The problem is that you have to prove that age is the issue and not some experience lack.

Russ

Oldie but goodie

In reply to Ageism? Good Idea?

I have been working on Electronic equipment for twenty years. from octal to hexidecimal each time I had to adapt to the change and demand of the company and technology. Learning to adapt on your own it the mantra of our age. It has been proven to me no matter how old you are in order to survive it the job market you adapt or die. I have notice alot of the young (egocentic) have not accept this idea and expect everything to stand still until they get it together, by that time it has past them by. I am 54 and still going strong I am able to work with Windows at the command-line, adjust the register and not have to use a mouse. This genertation of techs and user are helpless when the mouse fails.

What’s a mouse?

In reply to Oldie but goodie

I started machine coding PENNSTAC in octal; the only mice aroung were those who figured out how to get into the Armory’s basement, where all those vacuum tubes kept them toasty wrm in the winter.

I never ceased to be amazed at the number of youngsters that, for example, are totally clueless about using the keyboard for shortcuts & navigation.

Many of them don’t even know what a three-finger salute is!

mouse woes

In reply to What’s a mouse?

if you use a mac you get ripped off, they send a one button mouse so you have to violate the design concept of not keying to use it.

then, if you are crazy enough to use newer winders versions, if the mouse dies the computer is useless, as they killed the keyboard shortcuts ( other than alt f4 to shut down ).

I like my linux, and usually run in console. with no gpm installed, so it’s all keyboard work.

mouse use shows a lack of skill with systems.
steal that boys mouse and see how well he can function!!!
make him learn that command prompt is your friend.

How about the guys who panic without the C prompt.

In reply to mouse woes

Nothing like a blinking cursor to drive some poor fool over the edge. No C:\ means no work from far too many.

Dawg ]:)

3 finger salute? Is that three guys giving you the bird?

In reply to What’s a mouse?

no, but seriously, anyone who doesn’t know that the 3-finger salute means holding down CTRL-ALT-DEL is a complete IT newbie in my book

ain’t no 3 finger salute

In reply to 3 finger salute? Is that three guys giving you the bird?

with unix, linux, irix, freebsd, openbsd, bsd.

so if someone has been working exclusively with those os, they won’t know the term.

Maybe if they’re boy scouts………..

In reply to ain’t no 3 finger salute

Hey it’s possible; improbable but maybe……LOL

Dawg ]:)

Ain’t no hard in boot

In reply to What’s a mouse?

Hey, at least we don’t have to cycle through boot options with switches. ReIPLing was a bummer.

How many times have you had to go back to salvage information off a ‘legacy’ machine, generally using serial protocol. Now ‘legacy’ means pre-SP2 and if the transfer wizard doesn’t work….

In this field, old is 20 minutes ago. An old way of thinking can materialize in a 24 year old, or never be contemplated by a 58 year old. The more you adapt, the easier it is.

I just wish I had more use for my soldering station….

Love the smell of rosin on a hot iron, …

In reply to Ain’t no hard in boot

not to mention the odor of charred insulation.

God, those days were fun.

Today, mention breadboarding or building a kit will get you little but stares.

CTRL-ALT-DELETE

In reply to What’s a mouse?

How could they not know that?

To the young, that which they do not know is of no import.

In reply to CTRL-ALT-DELETE

You do remember your youth, don’t you?

The time when we were omnipotent, omniscient, & immortal?

Well as you said

In reply to Ageism? Good Idea?

“They prattle on about how important understanding DOS is, when no-one gives a toss about DOS anymore and 90% of current IT folk don’t even know what it is!”

What a scary thought and just how nice it would be to work in a place that considered DOS as unimportant. You are of course welcome to come play with a relatively expensive computer controlled Lathe that I keep running which uses DOS to work. Yes they could replace a perfectly good 2 Million $ piece of equipment with a embedded XP or Linux Lathe costing nearly 4 Million $ to buy and then requiring the whole place to be changed over to work the new piece of equipment with no manufacturing advantage. Incidental all the other computer controlled machinery would need replacing as well so I suppose the bill would be nearly .5 Billion $ and then there would be the lost production to take into account while things where changed and the operators got to know the new systems.

You are welcome to advise these people to do this but I would stand well clear as the fitters tend to clout you first and then trample you into the ground before even considering your advice.

Of course I’m sure that the management would be more than happy to bankrupt the place just to have some new equipment which their workers couldn’t use. 😀

Are you REAL or are you just attempting to pull out legs?

Granted I’m willing to believe that you wouldn’t want to visit this place as you would get covered in S##T which is hard to clean off and you would have to avoid the fitters who use the stuff as they are likely to Deck you just because of your Smart Aleck remarks but mainly you would want to avoid this place because it isn’t Air Conditioned and a clean room where you have it easy.

If I was to employ you , you would be undergoing some massive retraining before I let you loose on my customers and you would be not only learning DOS but Unix as well and understanding these long before you where allowed out.

Welcome to the real world where nothing is as simple as the text books say they are. :p

Col ]:)

Colin – You’re just too old.

In reply to Well as you said

.
How can you possibly even reach your keyboard anymore from that rocking chair?

Max

In reply to Colin – You’re just too old.

Microsoft gave me a wireless keyboard and mouse after I wore the mouse out and got the whole thing replaced with a new one I no longer bother to put batteries in the mouse and just use the keyboard.

With the Projector setup hanging from the ceiling and the wireless keyboard in “My Rocking Chair” I can do almost everything that I need to except insert & remove the the blank and burnt CD’s/DVD’s from the burner and file them. :p

But it isn’t too hard to get up to fit/remove these things as my rocking chair is one of those electrically operated ones which literally stands me up without any effort on my part. The massager isn’t bad either and along with the heating why would I want to move from the bloody thing? 😀

But I’m working on a system to do it all for me since my auto loader tape backup system has been taken away from me. 🙁

Col ]:)

I’ll lay odds that stuff has been thoroughly debugged and is bullet proof.

In reply to Well as you said

You wouldn’t get that from a new windows or even Linux, setup. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

Dawg ]:)

That’s exactly why it is still there

In reply to I’ll lay odds that stuff has been thoroughly debugged and is bullet proof.

Other than the box’s on the machines sucking in junk and shorting out the M’Board nothing ever goes wrong with any of it. 🙂

Since I’ve rebuilt the boxes a few times now on the last rebuild I’ve added intake filters so at least the bigger bits don’t get sucked in but all I have to do now is get them to clean the filters on a semi regular basis. 😀

The lathe I was thinking about has a 21 foot bed and something like a 4 foot swing it is very big and heavy. 😉

God I love this work especially when I can make things better than new. :p

Col ]:)

The best reason in the world not to upgrade.

In reply to That’s exactly why it is still there

If it’s working properly, why bother. Smart man. By this time you,ve worked out all the glitches and conflicts, it probably has no internet connections and who is writing viruses to DOS these days??? Even if the manufacturers decide to upgrade their software, you can evaluate it but I’d bet it’s not going to offer you anything new that it’s not already doing or which you haven’t already written a subroutine to get around it. That’s what pisses me off is when new software upgrades of applications won’t run properly except on the latest iteration of the OS. You just know you’re going to be vulnerable to all the latest crap online. Most good CNC setups, that have been in place for a while, are still DOS based for that very reason. I’ll say it again, smart man.

Dawg ]:)

I’ll remember that when your over Forty!

In reply to Ageism? Good Idea?

We are worth a lot more to society than young UNI educated, wet behind the ears, no respect, drug taking children, whom have no practical experience in the industry.

I back experience anyday! and the trend is starting to show that!

and young fellow take a note of this for the future – it may help you!

“For every action there is equal and opposite reaction.”

Every human thought, word and deed is a Cause that sets off a wave of
energy throughout the universe, creating calm and desireable, or stormy
and undesireable Effects.

Very Profound!

In reply to I’ll remember that when your over Forty!

You are right of course.

Please read “Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!”, my new topic to see exactly where I am coming from and the problem that we all will face as time passes.

Thanks again

Robb

Nuff said!

In reply to I’ll remember that when your over Forty!

Give me an experienced tech or whatever anyday over some snot-nosed know-it-all university type in their 20′.

I’m only 37 but I have plenty of experience from the past 17 years in IT. I would not be where I am if I had not had good mentors that were much older than me. I still respect them to this day. Younger kids today don’t seem to believe in mentoring of for that matter respect them.

I would give my soul to know just half of what my mentors have forgotten.

Age and wisdom Dos and Windows

In reply to Ageism? Good Idea?

Notice this that most of your techs out of School can’t figure out whether to wind there butt or scratch thier watch, without the help of some old trainer or supervisor that has the common sense to ask questions first then analyze the situation for the best possible solutions. the new kids these days can’t spell dos because it’s not taught or necessary yea some of old guys remember how to work in the old dos prompt age and still compare some of the commands but guess what when XP goes the way of the Dodo so will you in your 40’s. Each advancement made is based on the last success completed guess what if you can’t beat the Old guys how are you gonna be a success. careful how you measure you might not make it with this particular point of view.

Darn right!

In reply to Ageism? Good Idea?

Who wants an old fart around! All they do is complain about the system and just sit around. Why on the last job I was at all they did was put calls on hold, put off installing patches to operating systems and played games on computers. They even skipped meetings about new ideas for the company profile. Then they stayed late for stupid updates instead of going to a great party that another old fart had going on, with great babes. And now we can not get in touch with him because he turned off his phone and pager! Bad old guy. Wait this old guy was there for the call and was around for the upgrade. And some of the older people do know more then the person right out of school!
Dam what a idea a person who has been around a while knows more then you! Some of the older folks were hackers before you learned about them, and they like you asking about them:). Dont think that because you went through a great school that you know every thing. Experence and on the job training has alot to do with what you know and can use.
Sorry just thinking out loud.

Actually some of the Old Guys

In reply to Darn right!

Where hackers before there was such a thing as a Hacker and it was legal as at that time no laws had been passed to try to prevent this from happening. 😉

They would use their Z80 or older CPU driven play toys with a 300 Baud acoustic modem and get into mainframes without a bit of trouble and then anywhere around the world where there was a computer connected to a telephone line. They could reek havoc if they wanted to but mostly they just stole processing power and got the off site mainframes to do their work for them. 🙂

And what made it even better was there was no way to trace them. :p

Col ]:)

Some of those “auld hackers” used to pay their credit cards that way.

In reply to Actually some of the Old Guys

Not you of course. You’d never stoop so low or would you??? :^O
Of course you never used your own phone, just in case but it did keep your credit history sparklingly clean up to a AAA rating. God, those were the days but then again maybe not.

Dawg ]:)

And, let’s not forget “phreaking.”

In reply to Some of those “auld hackers” used to pay their credit cards that way.

Blue, red, & black boxes anyone?

What I Do not

In reply to Some of those “auld hackers” used to pay their credit cards that way.

Even know what a White or gray box is! I have never used a war dialer and the FBI says my record is clean after I reached 21. So try to find a record on me, and if I do have credit cards they are not in my name or not close to my name;).

Some of those

In reply to Actually some of the Old Guys

Not you of course. You’d never stoop so low or would you??? :^O
Of course you never used your own phone, just in case but it did keep your credit history sparklingly clean up to a AAA rating. God, those were the days but then again maybe not.

Dawg ]:)

Actually I didn’t need to

In reply to Some of those

I worked for IBM back then and was the Mainframe Senior Tech I already had unlimited access so I didn’t need to hack the system.

But in all fairness it was my job to protect the system so I used to look at other systems to find weak spots and then lock mine down. 😀

Col ]:)

When the IBM 360 Series was being beta tested at Penn State, …

In reply to Actually some of the Old Guys

we “hacked” the Mod 50 via the RJE terminals.

Well no they mostly

In reply to Actually some of the Old Guys

Would just look around and learn the new stuff. After a while when people were charged too much for phone calls or connecting to another computer did they try changing things. It only hurt the big companys and did not cost them a red cent! AS for using processing power, I would rather a person who has a greater idea of how a system works then a person who just uses a system.
A hacker is a person who likes to look into a program/system and see how it works. And mabie tells the programmer/ sysadmin how to fix it. A long time ago the hacker was a person who just wanted to fix a problem so they could get a better access to the main frame.

Never Trust Anyone Over 30

In reply to Ageism? Good Idea?

.
Sorry, I just had a flash-back to the 60s.

Poor Old Sod

In reply to Never Trust Anyone Over 30

Please read my new topic “Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!”. I think it may put into perspective my position.

As for Maxwell Edison? You have to be an old fart, right?

Thanks for your interest.

Robb

Hey – I resemble that remark!

In reply to Poor Old Sod

.
And I’m not old.

Define OLD Max

In reply to Hey – I resemble that remark!

To a 10 year old 15 is an unbelievable age to a 20 year old 30 is not worth living after to a 30 year old 50 is Over the Hill to a 50 year old everyone younger than them is a young whipper snapper and they are looking forward to getting to 60 so they can then start to think about retiring but still consider themselves young enough to continue working as long as they want to.

To a 65 year old they are resenting the fact that they have to retire soon because the law makes them and they still feel young enough to want to work and enjoy their work. Just for the record my little sister was born when my father was 64 years old so he worked well into his 70’s and when he eventually retired no one would believe that he was as old as he claimed they all thought he was in his early 60’s and his boss wouldn’t even believe him when he brought in his birth certificate to prove his age. He just insisted that he must have got a copy of one of his ancestors like an Uncle or someone like that with the same name.

Then the real problems began when my father retired within 2 years had had had 3 major heart attacks and was legally blind but while he was still working he was as fit as a fiddle and had absolutely no health problems and within 3.5 years of retiring he was dead. He was a perfect example of one who should never have retired and he would probably still be going strong today turning 101 this year. 😀

Col ]:)

Same Here

In reply to Define OLD Max

My Dad retired at 65. He had an almost illness free life. He worked outdoors for most of it. He served our country in WW2 and didn’t even get a scratch.

Within six months of retirement he died.

What can I say? Life can be a b**ch.

I’m sure that you will be there at 101 to make up for your Dad. Good on ya.

Robb

Robb I’ll be more than happy if I can

In reply to Same Here

Father a child at age 64 at least then they all can call me a Dirty Old Man as I plan to Grow Old Disgracefully and be proud of it. 😉

Currently I’m working on a way of cutting down the stress in my life but every time I try something out the stress gets worse. 🙁

So maybe I’m going about it all wrong but provided I still have the time to play with my petrol power play toys I don’t really give a dam. 😀

Now all I’ve really got to do is find a way to prevent my staff nicking my Classic Mercedes Collection and using them as work cars. The fact that I drive one all the time and love it to death sought of works against that Idea though and the wifes car is one of the rare coups which she will never part with. You should have been here when I got home one night and was told that one of the guys went to the wife and asked for her car keys and told her that I had OKed it. When I asked him what the Hell he thought he was doing he just told me that he had to pickup a laser printer and the box wouldn’t fit into his car which I found confusing until I realized that he considered the 280 SE his car and that thing that I had brought for him was left sitting on the side of the road and never being used. 😀

Col ]:)

But, now that we’re wiser, it’s …

In reply to Never Trust Anyone Over 30

“never trust anyone [b]under[/b] 30!”

Well at least

In reply to But, now that we’re wiser, it’s …

With any Mission Critical stuff.

But it’s fun giving them jobs on the small relatively unimportant things just to see how they get on. 😉

Once Upon time I gave a 25 year old a job that required a complete rewrite of 120,000 lines of code he promptly came back within a few days with a finished product supposedly all bug tested and security fixed so I ran it on a stand alone station and just got him to monitor it for a few weeks. He spent more time rewriting the thing than it actually spent running. 😀

But it sure as hell was fun suggesting ideas on how to fix some of the problems and even better when I needed to tell him to rewrite complete subroutines. 😉

That pulled him into line very quickly as he had been constantly complaining to those above me just how I was holding him back so after 2 years of complaints I allowed him to waste a bit of time just to show me how good he really was. Needless to say I never heard another complaint from him again. 🙂

Col ]:)

You designed & built, so you test fly it, …

In reply to Well at least

gets them every time.

I remember that well

In reply to But, now that we’re wiser, it’s …

.
As a teenager in the 60s, I thought 30 was OLD OLD OLD!

Ah, the good ol’ days – my 30s, I mean, not my teens.

Dead on.

In reply to I remember that well

My 30s were definitely my “Golden” years.

What the HELL is wrong with

In reply to Dead on.

The pair of you? 😉

Today are my Golden Years and they will remain that way for as long as I keep working. :p

What I did 20 odd years ago are what brought me to what I do today I do not miss traveling all over the world writing code that had to be perfect every 2 weeks of the season and not knowing where I was when I woke up each day do I miss the race meetings well yes but I do not miss the pressure that was involved and the constant multi day work shifts just to get something to work properly. I certainly do not miss the fact that I would be involved with others in assembling something and then after all of our work we would hand it over to a complete manic who single goal in life was to attempt to destroy all of our work. While I can appreciate the skill of a racing driver it doesn’t mean that I would trust one with anything mechanical or electronic at all. 😀

Col ]:)

Mind vs Body.

In reply to What the HELL is wrong with

The mind remains (for some, at least) young, while the body ages.

Given the choice, I’d rather live without the pinched cervical nerve, the degenerative lumbar disc, the adnosmia and the Raynaud’s syndrome.

Never Trust Anyone UNDER 30

In reply to Never Trust Anyone Over 30

You were thinking about that movie where anyone over 30 was sent to a comceration camp to get them out of the way of the young kids. And the people who made the movie are how old now??

Because they JUST don’t know enough to make wise decisions. Remember to be president of the USA the minuim age is 35. I think it shoud be 55.

I have been servicing computers for over 39 years and can hang in there with the young whipper snappers. I’m A+,NET+,MCSE. I know a lot yongersters who have failed the A+ test one or twice befor passing.
Why don’t you find how old Einstine was when he devloped E=MC/2 formula.

Mine was a joke – A JOKE

In reply to Never Trust Anyone UNDER 30

.
Read it again, and think about it.

Age always has an advantage

In reply to Ageism? Good Idea?

.
A 50 year old knows exactly what it’s like to be 30, but a 30 year old has no idea what it’s like to be 50.

Beside getting older we get meaner and dirtier. Now isn’t that true???

In reply to Age always has an advantage

And 50 year olds should note that 60 year olds know what it’s like to be 50. All the tricks but meaner and dirtier if need be.

Dawg ]:)

Ain’t that the truth?

In reply to Beside getting older we get meaner and dirtier. Now isn’t that true???

Hello,

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my topic Ageism etc.

Please read my followup topic Prejudice, cynicism in the IT sector? Impossible!

It will put into perspective where I am coming from.

Thank you for your wise words.

Robb

And, we have the choice of “acting” either age!

In reply to Age always has an advantage

The 30 year old can only imagine & pretend at being older.

Food for Thought

In reply to Ageism? Good Idea?

I’m over (well over) 50 and pretty active in TQ&A. I suspect that most questions I answer are from people young enough to be my children or possibly even grandkids.

So, if I’m so old and out of touch, how come so many of you young fountains of knowledge have to get answers from me?

I suspect that Chas may have the same opinion. He’s good at this technical stuff and well over 40.

Dalton

At the going down of the sun, and in the morning

In reply to Food for Thought

Thanks for your kind response to my topic Ageism etc.

Please read Prejudice and cynicism in the IT sector, IMPOSSIBLE!

I think it will put into perspective exactly where I am coming from.

Thanks again

Robb

Dalton

In reply to Food for Thought

Shut-up you OLD FART! 😀

We already know just how much you know but you appear to have forgotten that us “Oldies” are meant to be seen and not heard!

NAH that aint right it’s the young ones that that applies to isn’t it? Go right on and complain quite a bit as well. :p

Col ]:)

Another “Worthless” Old Timer

In reply to Dalton

Colin,

Probably should have included you and several others as well. Just did’t want to let on that ya’ll might be “over the hill.” Could hurt your job prospects you know :

Dalton

An interesting thought

In reply to Another “Worthless” Old Timer

Now if only I could work out how to fire myself. :p

I not allowed any sharp implements as I might try to slit my wrists just to kill off my Boss I really hate his guts with a vengeance now. 😀

Actually if anything we have too much work as all the business that we work for are sick and tired of being sold a Pig in a Poke and we get called in to fix the mess after the event. I’m still remembering a complete new system sold to one company with no network face plates on the walls and no software other than Windows on any of the Computers they listed their requirements and where then provided with a heap of junk and no software. But the thing that really got me there was one workstation with recovery CD’s and no CD/DVD/Floppy drive. I fitted a DVD drive to the machine as I couldn’t quite figure out just how to install any software to it and I wasn’t going to use their network to do it as their only way of getting files from one computer to another was to e-mail them. Now their ISP rented space of a server farm in the US and only had a small remote site here all running Red Hat 7 or something like that so to move a single file it first went over an DSL connection to the local ISP then was bounced off a satellite to the US base then sent straight back. Seemed like a lot of unnecessary effort to go to just to move something 10 feet to me at least but they thought it was marvelous until they got their first ISP bill. 😀

It goes without saying that I set it up properly and now they have a working network but I wasn’t allowed to fit a gateway as they had been told that their setup was as good as it gets it was a DSL modem connected straight to a hub with no AV software on any computer.

Actually when I first walked in the only software in the entire building was a copy of MYOB for their accounting package which they had previously so that wasn’t supplied by the pimply faced youngster who sold them the setup. And no matter how much I begged them I wasn’t allowed to install any AV software even the free stuff as they where told it was unnecessary 😀 well that lasted all of about a week when they got hit and everything was infected. 😉 They where lucky and got a nasty one which required a complete reload. 🙁

Or the computer that was requested with two monitors so that the salesman could be at his desk looking at one monitor and the customer on the other side with a clear view of the second monitor and no way of fitting the second monitor. When I rang up the supplier he insisted that yes he knew that they wanted 2 monitors for that workstation but he didn’t realize that they wanted to use them at the same time. 😀 Now just why would you buy 2 monitors for one machine?

God that still haunts me to this day it was a total mess and something I never want to even think about again let alone see something as bad. :p

Col [:)

Do young minds equal small minds?

In reply to Ageism? Good Idea?

Don’t be an idiot, robb.

Treat each individual as an individual. Old, young, whatever. The individual’s skills and attitudes are what matter, not his or her age. I’d rather hire someone with significant experience and a better understanding of the fundamentals of computer technology than some young dork like you that thinks he knows everything.

A superficial understanding of administrative applications and GUI IDEs doesn’t begin to compare to an in-depth understanding of the basic concepts that underlie the functionality of those applications. I imagine you’re likely the sort that scoffs at text editors, favoring Visual Studio instead. You probably think UNIX is passe, COBOL is irrelevant, and the command line is obsolete.

As much as I joke about being “old”, I’m nowhere near the age of the people you disparage so casually. I’m just old enough to recognize how very much they have to teach me. My father’s been working with computers longer than I’ve been alive, and I’d place far more value on his knowledge than your pissant attitude.

Good Point Mate

In reply to Do young minds equal small minds?

Hi and thanks for responding to my topic.

may I suggest that you now read Prejudice, cycicism in the IT sector, IMPOSSIBLE!

I think it might put into perspective exactly where I am coming from.

Thanks again for you interest and your wise wordes. Couldn’t agree more!

Robb

asinine

In reply to Good Point Mate

Regardless of age, and regardless of the truth of what you intended here, this was a juvenile stunt. You’ve got a lot to learn.

Well Maybe….

In reply to asinine

YOu cannot imagine my mail-box!! It creaks with anger and self rightousness (spelling?).

I stand by what I wrote, but I am prepared to admit that I should really have made it clear from which perspective I was doing it from. That was probably a mistake and I would be the first to apologise to you and others who have, rightly, taken me to task.

I hope that you will forgive me on the grounds that my intentions were good. This is an issue. And, from the number of passionate e-mails I have received and the number of replies to this topic that has accrued on the forum, I think I guaged it about right.

Thanks for your comment. I take it as an honest response.

Happy trails

Robb

Well you could always

In reply to Well Maybe….

Go back and edit the original posting just to screw with their minds. 😀

Col ]:)

Positively Evil

In reply to Well you could always

Don’t temp me mate!

You have the right smiley, that is for sure.

Robb

Prejudice, Cynism in the IT sector? NEVER!

In reply to Ageism? Good Idea?

Hi Everyone,

My name is Robb and I wrote the topic ‘Ageism? Good Idea?’.

I wrote this topic to provoke debate about a very important issue in our industry.

I am 55 years old and many of you will have egg on your faces over that bit of knowledge. I have been in the IT industry for more than 15 years and I am now a sage-like soul who now teaches IT technologies to people who want to work in my industry. One of the questions that they ask me, is “Can I get a job at my age in IT?”. Because the majority of my students are military Resettlement folk, they are over 35 (in most cases). I always calm their fears by telling them just how tolerant we IT folk are and how age is a real asset. But, to be truthful, I am not sure that this is correct.

To Test this I made myself ‘unemployed’ and applied for 100 IT jobs. I wrote out a ‘proper’ CV/Resume and placed my current photograph on it. I stated my age and my qualifications correctly and I also made sure that any referees I stated would respond. Out of the 100 vacancies that I applied for over a two month period I did not received ANY offers of an interview.

I then changed my age and placed a photo of myself taken when I was 30 years old, on the CV. I sent the CV to around 25 companies (some of the original 100 too!) and have received 12 offers of interview and one direct offer of a job. 3 offers came form three of the original companies that did not respond to my ‘truthful’ CV.

This was not a scientific piece of research, I know that. But I believe that despite the laws about ageism and so on, in my country (UK) and in the USA, the fact remains that ageism is practiced, if not blatently, then in the minds of many of us.

I was intersted to note the many responses to my original article. May I thank all of those who took the time to respond.

I plan to take this issue further, but right now I have to start to earn a living again.

Does anyone have any vacancies?

Best regards – Happy Trails

Robb

Robb a couple of things

In reply to Prejudice, Cynism in the IT sector? NEVER!

First I looked you up on your Peer Listing so at least I knew what I was getting into and treated it as a sarcastic comment with some important underling significance. :p

But more importantly who has time to interview people when you have so much work that you can not even afford the time off to interview people to try to make your life easier? 😉

Col ]:)

problems

In reply to Prejudice, Cynism in the IT sector? NEVER!

I say “problems”, as in “You have some . . .”

Here’s a couple of ’em:

1. You’re a troll. I’m not in the business of paying trolls (while I don’t do any hiring, I do have input into who gets paid for contract work, and you wouldn’t get any with us).

2. You’re posting essentially the same thing over and over again here. That doesn’t strike me as being indicative of good programming practice. Repeating data within a system is just awful. It’s also annoying.

Maybe you should wipe this user account clean, create a new one, and try to be forgotten for this stunt. You’ve got a better chance of getting hired by anyone with two brain cells to rub together that way.

Sad But True…

In reply to Prejudice, Cynism in the IT sector? NEVER!

Yes, I can say from personal experience, having been a CIO, and a software engineer, with experience going back to the 70s, and am current in VB.net and ASP…that age bias is the norm, not the exception. The US is aging, ironic that those over 50 are being shunned by the fewer younger workers out there in hiring positions. The only recourse for older workers is to find wiser places to work, start a new company, turn hobby into income, or update old skills, and contract…I have decided to return to software development – but am stilla fan of IT. Software doesnt care what the age of the developer is…in fact, experience makes the job a lot easier…

Maybe true – turtles

In reply to Ageism? Good Idea?

But our experience in mainframe, the background we have in “purchasing” computer time for testing, and the long term knowledge of support calls at 2 am and core dumps, well, we might be the turtles of today and youth might be the rabbit but seems to me the story ends in the turtle’s favor…

BTW: 50 years old, and in April of this year started studying and passed two MCP exams (score above 860 on both), completed MCT and took third for exam for HIPAA certification, and studying for addition mcp. We may be old but we are coming back after your jobs…… 🙂

Wonder how you’ll think in 24 years

In reply to Ageism? Good Idea?

When you are 40

A Joke?

In reply to Wonder how you’ll think in 24 years

Let me start off by saying that I can only hope that the origionater of this thread was pulling our chains by asking such a dumb question…..If not he is certainly the exception. In either case I believe ageism absolutley exists as I have seen it myself. As we all know as you move up the IT food chain you (by nature) becomre further removed from technology. This is a natural progression as you start dealing more and more with staffing, budgets, SBOX etc.. I believe it is more difficult for a mid life career changer to break in that it is for a kid. The main reason for this this is money… I can pay some 22 year old kid with maybe an A+ or MCSE 40k a year, work them all hours of the day and night and be reasonably sure they will stay there for a few years. A mid life career changer, however has a mortgage, car payments..kids in cloaage etc and is looking for more money.
Obvioulsy there are many things to take into condieration and the toughest thingwe all went through is breaking into this field. Another poster said it perfectly in another thread… You have to distinguish yourself from the masses of MCSE’s, A+ and other vendor certs that are out there. This field is the epitome of the of the catch-22 ” I can’t get the job cause I don’t have the experience, but I can’t get the experience without the job!!”

That’s a funny thought…

In reply to Ageism? Good Idea?

I am a 46 yo network admin. The young green behind the ears punks can’t figure out the basics. No experience in this field just doesn’t cut it, no matter what degrees they got.

I’ve got to read the rest of these threads…

In reply to Ageism? Good Idea?

I am ONE of those over 40. And yes there is a point where one must make a decision to continue down a Project Management path or a Technical path. Unfortunately, I have to do both these days. You talk about the “oldies” not keeping up with technology. I have to deal with the “youngins” using the most current technology. But MOST of them couldn’t manage an IT project if their careers depended on it! I spend easily 50% of my time reengineering poor designs developed by the young self-proclaimed hot shots. Fortunately upper management at my company recognizes this and I get the satisfaction of axing these infestations of poor-attitudes with so-called skills when they become problems. I have improved internal satisfaction, system reliability and reduced help desk issues to practically ZERO, all with hiring more experienced employees. I have half the number of employees doing much better work than a pool of attitudes. You would not last long here!

Seems like there definately is ageism here!

In reply to I’ve got to read the rest of these threads…

As I read through this entire post, I became increasingly aware of one sad fact, that within this field there is definately AGEISM practised.

It may not be how you think,though. I am a “newbie” 26 year old, trying to get my career started and as this thread has pointed out I will never get a job because I would be presumed to be just another hot headed, drug taking, know nothing pissant. I have read it over and over again, and the saddest part about this discussion is that it did show the opposite of what Robb had intended, that the older more knowledgeable guys would not even give a new comer a chance unless he were at least in his forties. Well what of us, women in the industry? Would we be expected to be just getting the job so that we could take time off to have more babies?

Granted with age, comes experience, but from the tone of this entire thread it seems that, either you are one of “them” or one of “us.” I, however do not see myself in either group but do fear that when and if I finally land the job, all my work will be deemed Inferior simply due to my age. Isn’t that in fact ageism?

Not at all correct

In reply to Seems like there definately is ageism here!

I would think that most of us here acknowledge the fact that we need to have new blood in the industry and are only too happy to train as you like to call them “Newbies!”

It’s just that you can not expect to walk into any organization and have the run of the place implementing new software/hardware Willy nilly and compromising mission critical systems. Like the rest of us you have to pay your dues doing the work that at first appears mundane and repetitive but this work actually helps build your people skills so you can relate to the end users without upsetting them or down right PISSING THEM OFF!

If you walk in with the attitude that you know it all and the others at the place are all Old FARTS who know nothing you are in for a world of hurt as you will never get anywhere as most of us will allow you to hang yourself.

But if you at least have some idea that you just might learn something from those Old Farts you should go far. It’s only when you start rocking the boat that you’ll find you have problems like ignoring your immediate supervisor and making complaints directly to HR about how you are being held back and not allowed to do the work you where employed to do.

I’m not one to believe in the CATCH 22 position at all over my 30 + years I’ve had well over 200 new people through my places of employment all of which I was more than willing to train up and I’ve had about 50 who ended up very quickly as well because they are unwilling to accept that they do not know everything possible.

It is an unfortunate fact of life that those few are the ones that we remember because of the problems that they created for us to fix rather than the hundreds that worked out perfectly. But you can not expect to walk into any organization and be given Mission Critical Work without at the very least first learning how the place works and what is required. In any business radical changes always mean lost income and problems so we tent to tread carefully and test things out for a long time before considering implementing them. The same applies to new staff they have to prove themselves as responsible people before they are given higher levels of responsibility. Provided you are willing to actually work and not expect that the world owes you, you should not have too many problems as any IT Professional knows that you can only gain the necessary experience with time and you need to be slowly introduced to the business end of things. Throwing people into the deep end where they can sink or swim just doesn’t work in this industry as most will sink like a stone and take the business with them straight to the bottom. This is in no ones best interests!

Our role in IT is to provide the infrastructure so that the business can run efficiently and we serve we are a means to an end not the end itself.

Col ]:)

You Sir, Are A Prince Among Men

In reply to Not at all correct

I love your responses mate.

Keep it up, you have a ton of good stuff in there.

Articulate and eloquent. You don’t have that at 35. At least, I didn’t.

Robb

Nope; just an empirical fact.

In reply to Seems like there definately is ageism here!

By definition, wisdom accrues with the accumulation of life experiences, i.e. with age.

Therefore, the younger one is, perforce, less wise than he will be later in his life.

Your work will be judged on its merits, not on your age. But, given your age, your work is less likely to initially meet the desired/required quality standards.

In revising your work so as to meet said standards, you will learn from your mistakes. (One learns little from immediate successes; it is failure that is the great teacher.)

And, in the process of learning, you will also become older.

Of course dump the 55 year old Cardiac Surgeon

In reply to I’ve got to read the rest of these threads…

You don’t want that old fuddy duddy 55 year old cardiac surgeon who has done several thousand dificult operations. Go with that young 26 year old with the ink just dry on his cert, who is up to date on all the latest techniques and is just waiting to try them out. Heck he has a done at least a dozen solo ops.

Yes, the Help Desk…

In reply to I’ve got to read the rest of these threads…

Can you imagine 20-somethings on a Help Desk? The problem is not usually technical — sometimes we do get some legacy questions (on investor is still using Windows 95), the difficulty is finding people able to communicate effectively and understand what is really being said when the words are all wrong, and do it day after day with a smile on his or her face. This requires superb skills and experience and a measure of humility.

Maybe Not – But Then…

In reply to I’ve got to read the rest of these threads…

Hi and thank you for that.

I am 55 years old and I have been in the IT industry here in the UK for 15 years.

I wrote the topic because I wanted to provoke debate over an issue that rarely gets any air-time. It has been a very busy week. I have received some fairly abusive mail. No matter. I am happy to have made folk think. I just hope that those who do hire and fire have read this and realise that people like me have so much to offer.

Thank you for your time and interest. I do appreciate the response, even if you were being annoyed with me. Well, I deserved it.

Robb