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  • #2250182

    Arrogant lil workers


    by tangle_ellfly38 ·

    Sorry to rant but I cannot stand these little arrogant “know it all” jerks anymore.I’m talking about the ones who took some html classes in high freakin’ school and can log on and play World of Warcraft.It seems this somehow qualifies them as pc experts.They want to sit back and give the users little smug looks and smart remarks because they can use a right click menu and can spell Linux! It’s good and bad how easy it is to learn a little Windows and then get a job imaging computers and doing a little help desk for close to minimum wage. Is pc operations/help desk the next McDonalds for teens?? Is it just me or are they becomming more and more common?? (Apologies to the younger crowd who really do know what they are doing and don’t have an “I’m an IT god and you are a mere foolish mortal” complex!)

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    • #3216121

      Unfortunately is is becoming more common

      by hal 9000 ·

      In reply to Arrogant lil workers

      It’s the same ones who will be first out the door at the end of work and refuse to work that extra 15 minutes to get the job done.

      I saw this about 16 years ago and walked away then from Big Business as these kids used to drive me crazy. There where some really good ones but the majority thought that they [b]Knew it all[/b] when they actually knew [b]Bugger All[/b] and insisted on doing things their way and messing up things even more and then they would walk out and leave us to fix the mess that they had made. Then try to mess it up again when the came in to work the next day after we had spent hours getting it right.

      But what I’m finding now is people completely Computer Illiterate who are now forced to use computers in their business and don’t understand why those 80 GIG of music files that they have downloaded for their I Pod prevent the NB running correctly and stop De frag running because there is only 1% of free drive space left. 😀

      I honestly have one guy who has paid me for about 25 hours to show him how to work his I Pod. Talk about an expensive Play Toy!

      But at least he knows no better and accepts advice but he’s just as frustrating as many of those Young Know It Alls as he messes up the system just as often and doesn’t know what he’s done. 🙁


      • #3216111

        If we are going to rant…..

        by jdclyde ·

        In reply to Unfortunately is is becoming more common

        It is the END user that I have a beef with right now.

        How many times has someone come up to you, asking for your advice on purchasing a new computer? You take the time to find out what they are going to use it for, so you can size the computer to the job. when everything is said and done, they end up going to “best buy” or some other department store and buy a cheap piece of crap because the “expert” there told them this was a great computer for what they are going to do.

        Then a week later when the computer doesn’t work, they have the NERVE to call you and ask you to see what is wrong.

        “It is under warrenty, take it back for them to fix it.”

        I have no sympathy that they can’t play their games because they got a cheap computer with on-board everything. You just bought an expensive word processor. Enjoy.

        • #3216031

          The Salespeople are another bug bear of mine. :)

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to If we are going to rant…..

          A few weeks ago I was walking to the bank at the local shopping centre and was cornered by a pimply faced lad attempting to sell me a Dell something.

          He just wouldn’t accept [b]NO!!!![/b] so I eventually relented and gave a description of my new workstation as a [b]Base Build[/b] you know the type of thing a Dual Xeon with 8 + Gig of RAM and some really nifty things that I need as well as several SATA HDD’s. He listened to my description and then held up a $1,200.00 NB and went on to extol the virtues of this machine. When I said I needed 2 CPU’s he very kindly explained to me that this had a Duo CPU so it actually did have 2 CPU’s I didn’t have the heart to tell him that the Xenos where the same 2 CPU per chip and the massive 512 MEG of RAM was more than anyone would ever need.

          When I put up something that he couldn’t point out was better than my specs all he could say was [b]This Is Portable![/b] I eventually escaped and some time latter as I was going somewhere to do some work so I had my tools and NB on me I got hit by the same kid again. I didn’t have the time to waste with this guy but from previous experience I knew that anything that I could say would not be enough so I just pulled out my NB which was built in December 04 and asked him what the new Dell could do that my current NB couldn’t. It’s a Clevo D400E fully loaded so there is nothing more that can be added and it has the biggest CPU that was available a the time though the Dual Cores have since been released. I turned it on allowed windows XP to start I had the XP HDD in it this time for a change and then used the Fingerprint reader to open Windows.

          He then insisted that the Dell had WiFi so I flipped a switch and turned on the WiFi and then showed him how to toggle between the WiFi & Buletooth as they both work off the same switch. He then went on to tell me of the accessories that I could get like a Web Cam so I just pointed to the Camera in the Screen opened up the Camera Driver and had a half filled screen of what was going on in front of the camera as well as the voice as the Mic is built into the screen as well.

          Anyway not to be outdone he just had to say well mines lighter than your’s which it most certainly was but the NB of mine doesn’t have batteries that tend to catch fire either and that was where most of the difference was besides my being a 17 inch screen and the one that he was trying to flog off having a 15 inch screen.

          And he actually had to complain that the TFT Monitor in my NB is too bright. Seems that LCD Monitors are better because he says so. 😀

          But the killer came when 3 people asked him to sell them my NB as it just looked so good and had a much better program load than what the other NB’s that they where offering. Needless to say he’s left me alone since and you don’t know just how thankful I am for that. He was like a Rabid Dog who latched on and wouldn’t let go at any price until he had a sale. Of course me telling those people that sorry I can not sell you one of these as it’s now a discontinued model the newer ones are better and support the latest hardware didn’t go over to well. :^0

          Col ]:)

        • #3218672

          Dell Batteries Exploding….

          by derick.boe ·

          In reply to The Salespeople are another bug bear of mine. :)

          First those were Sony’s problematic batteries, not Dell’s. Apple and another company had to recall theirs.
          And two; there were only 1 or 2 that actually caught fire, this was just media sensationalism at it’s worse.
          I’m glad you like your laptop, but there is nothing wrong with the Dell 9400’s. I have one and it is by far the best laptop I’ve ever owned.

          And are you sure you have the D400E, as I looked at the specs sheet, and this popped up;
          . 14.1″ XGA TFT/15.0″XGA/
          15.0″ SXGA+ TFT
          You sure yours is 17 inch??
          Sure it’s not the best of the best, but it’s not crap as many people seem to believe.
          I’ve lived with the knowledge over the past year and a half, that while I was at the college, there was only one person who had a laptop that could outperform this one; a 4000$ Alienware lappy.
          I got this 9400 fully loaded for only 1700$. God I love Dell coupon codes.

          Enjoy your laptop and that guy that stopped you doesn’t know how to sell stuff.

        • #3218649

          The Sony Batteries where made to Dell Specs Cheap!

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Dell Batteries Exploding….

          And you’re right only a couple did burst into flames but the ones that did where impressive and maybe I’m slightly put off by the fact that that brand new 42 inch Plasma did exactly the same thing thankfully while I was watching it so I could pull the power and hit it with a Foam Fire Extinguisher before it burnt the house down.

          The end result was that they refused to Honor the warranty because it has been put out with a Foam Fire Extinguisher and not allowed to burn the house down so the problem could not be found. Boy am I glad that I don’t leave these things on Standby as I just don’t trust them all that much.

          As for the Clevo yes it’s 17 inch and the correct designation is D400-E where e stands for extra or something similar it’s the bigger model than the standard 14 or 15 inch monitor depending on if it was a LCD or TFT. I believe that they have altered the model number for AU for this line and while I could have bought a Centrino system when I built this one I needed the number crunching power that was available on the 3.4 P4 as the then Centrino was much slower. I’m not concerned with Battery life as this is a tool for my work. It came with all the options as standard here as that was how the bare chassis was marketed and all I had to do was pick a CPU some RAM and a HDD to assemble it.

          The 15 inch TFT ones where called D400’s here not sure why the different designation for what was effectively the same model maybe it was just the Country Importer wishing to offer a better option than anything else that was available at the time in an off the shelf system. It always made it hard as I had to go through the Country Distributer for the correct specs for the machines sold here as they where different to the Clevo Site.

          OH BTW the kid was attempting to sell me a Basic 6400 Insperon not the bigger brother it was totally unsuitable for my needs but it’s what they had stock of I suppose. The fact that it had Media Centre when I had told him that I absolutely required the Pro version didn’t help either.


        • #3274514

          Why do I believe nothing you say?

          by rl-ns ·

          In reply to The Sony Batteries where made to Dell Specs Cheap!

          Why do I believe nothing you say?

        • #3274513

          That was a little unkind of me, sorry

          by rl-ns ·

          In reply to Why do I believe nothing you say?

          Salesmen suck…

          arrogant co-workers suck…

          at least u don’t have to put up with salesmen all day.. (I hope)

        • #3274486

          They are Dell’s batteries

          by maeseralf ·

          In reply to The Sony Batteries where made to Dell Specs Cheap!

          You are right. Even Dell Computers admited they sold the batteries, and call their buyers to change them with no cost on shipping and service. It was commented here, and published in the Dell’s News papers I receive timely.
          They recognize that were Dell specs for a company in China.

        • #3216951


          by jordanwaggoner ·

          In reply to Dell Batteries Exploding….

          Looks like the same rabid salesman followed you into the forums….

        • #3218630

          Quickest way to shutdown salespeople

          by manitobamike ·

          In reply to The Salespeople are another bug bear of mine. :)

          I have found the quickest way to shutdown these sales “experts” is to inform them that I need to have at least 2 serial ports to connect up with our PLC devices. Most of the ones I have encountered just end up with a bewildered look on their faces, especially when you tell them it has to be configured as a DTE and have the full acync RS232 signals available.
          A few have in the past expressed an interest in learning and asked what a PLC or DTE is but most try to skip over and tell you that it can be added later.

        • #3217312

          Ahh Yessss! …..

          by jcitizen ·

          In reply to Quickest way to shutdown salespeople

          I used similar tactics for kids who try to sell me Apples or Linux boxes; they JUST DON”T work in the production technology field.

          At least for anything I’ve done – and I have tried. Virtualization just slows everything down.

        • #3217229

          Why not Linux?

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Ahh Yessss! …..


        • #3217182

          lol …

          by troy15 ·

          In reply to Why not Linux?

          Our data center on the university reflects
          reality. We have McSoft, RHEL, OSX and *nix

          Don’t let the McSoft `boys` fool you. Their
          crapware causes the most pain in production

        • #3217181

          Apple and Linux Not Production Ready????

          by jtnieves ·

          In reply to Ahh Yessss! …..

          I’m sorry, JCitizen.. when I read your post I had to do a double-take. You need to explain yourself because you made a blanket statement about two OSes that are in use by thousands of IT operations the world over. What would be your alternative — some flavor of Unix? I could see that. But if it’s Windows, I’d say you need to get out of your cubicle more often because the stale office air is not helping you think straight.

        • #3217177

          what does production mean

          by sjchurchman ·

          In reply to Apple and Linux Not Production Ready????

          PLC’s or programmable logic controllers are used in factories, industrial, and production enviroments. They control large machines that require enourmous power.

          Depending upon who manufactures the PLC’s and their age will decide if a particular operating system has the necessary software to control them.

          JCitizen perhaps should have explained things clearer.

        • #3217174

          Actually he means……….

          by n2vdy ·

          In reply to Apple and Linux Not Production Ready????

          He means in a production environment on a factory floor where you have to connect a PC to a machine to find out what the heck is wrong. Usually this happens in the middle of the day and you need to get the line back up ASAP. If the major PLC manufacturers like Allen-Bradley, Omron, and AutomationDirect would make Linux versions of their software then it would be a different story.

        • #3274343

          Really it is confusing

          by maeseralf ·

          In reply to Apple and Linux Not Production Ready????

          Hi, What JC wants to mean is Production Environment. This is for factories or workshops where automated production machines are used.
          But the term Production Ready is also understood as ready to deliver to the market arena. This last is not the intention of him.

        • #3274567

          Are you current?

          by hlhowell9 ·

          In reply to Ahh Yessss! …..

          Microsoft just executed an agreement with Novell. Check it out on Groklaw. Also I have been around a bit, and I personally work on about 9 operating systems for production environments. None of them is Microsoft. I do use Microsoft, but just for email and web browsing because it is a filthy environment for scientific calculation or development that requires 3 to 6 times the development effort. Just my opinion and experience, you understand. How many OS’s have you used?

        • #3274530

          My apologies to jmgarvin, jtnieves, steve, and hihowell….

          by jcitizen ·

          In reply to Are you current?

          I made a flippant reply to Mantitobamike because I new he would understand. I didn’t think anyone else would be interested in the conversation. (sorry) n2vdy has also hit the nail on the head. Novell and the various Unix flavors to not make drivers or operating systems compatible to the majority of automated factory systems manufacturer’s use for production.

          Consequently PC’s (Windows), supply most of the logic and/or monitoring systems and software for these applications. Not that something else wouldn’t be better, but it would take a quantum shift to get going. My brother has been working diligently to expound the virtues of using Apple technology to supply both the chipsets and software for such applications but most companies, that go this route, default to virtualization as an easy way out in these instances; which until very recently was too slow. Cincinnati Milacron has had some success with this but troubleshooting can be a nightmare if you’ve never cut your teeth on it before. He will also be watching the Novell efforts very closely, believe me.

        • #3274484

          I agree 50/50

          by maeseralf ·

          In reply to Ahh Yessss! …..

          It is sure that Macs will not work for engineering jobs; they are media production oriented. But you have many releases of Linux, some of them Real Time SOs. Even there is a National Instruments version in Flash mamory. The DSP field uses it.

        • #3274483


          by jcitizen ·

          In reply to I agree 50/50

          That is interesting! In my 30 years in the field I have never run in to that. Just goes to show you can never have enough experience when it comes to computer driven industry!

        • #3274478

          Flash mamory?

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to I agree 50/50

          Couldn’t resist the pun, are these the new Dolly Parton Bio-Chip set?

        • #3274475

          Yes, in Solid State Disks!

          by maeseralf ·

          In reply to I agree 50/50

          It is the newest product from them. It only has a few months. But it is built-in for the controller cards from the company. And they have no such deffenses as DP! Other way, you can download from a Mem-stick, with the drivers for the device you are building.

        • #3274338

          More on PLC

          by maeseralf ·

          In reply to I agree 50/50

          HI! About Macs, I’ve to clarify I mean Media Contents Production (movies, graphics, animation…)
          But about PLCs, do you know the European market? Siemens, Festo, Kl?ckner-M?eller, Philips, T?lemech?nique… They are going to Linux.
          And if you consider the modern means, in micro-controllers (as ST-77 or Microchip’s PICs) Linux is going the preferred environment for production and dessign tools.

        • #3217001

          The problem with generalizations

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to I agree 50/50

          It is far from certain that Macs will not work for engineering jobs.

          I have seen with my own eyes a Mac controlling the fuel rods at a nuclear reactor. (Guess which one and I will buy you dinner).

          I also am aware that Macs used to be heavily used at Boeing and other engineering companies, and that National Instruments used to make a data capture card for the Mac along with a tool kit.

          In the late 80s, I saw many examples of Macs outpacing PCs in some CAD areas.

          I’m not up to speed with the latest developments, but surely you can use the facility of a Mac to run unix apps to run production control equipment.


        • #3216892

          To James

          by maeseralf ·

          In reply to I agree 50/50

          Sorry, but I can’t post following your path.
          You are right, specially for Macs at the old 80-90. I have a MiniMac working all the day as my intranet server, and it goes perfect. In the first times (along the 70s) it was the Apple I and II the king in the tech domain. I can remember a 3D input device to capture spatial bodies, as a periferal for the Apple II, and it was so near to now, as in the 83. (If you want, I can recall the article for you). To go beyond Apple’s power, you had to go to a HP Fourier or the PDP-11, or greater.
          Then they got the “Lisa” (poor girl!), I don’t know why it was not sucessful on the bussines. And the great MacHintosh SI. Along the eighties, Mac was built around the Motorola 68030, so it was the only personal computer capable of driveing a VMX bus center, and the first multi-thread/multi-task personal computer. I know very well NI, and they have been with the Mac from the first time, many time before they produce the LabView for the PC.
          Today it is not so great for this, and I’m not so sure with the new Intel stations, to confide them an engineering environment. But they were so good on CAD and image manipulation, that the Media industry went quickly to use them in content creation and press edition. Do you remember how much time it took to get the QuarkXpress professional publishing on PC? So, the money rules, and Apple turns their efforts to that field, neglecting the engineering domain. OS X is a great OS, but it is so over loaded with funny graphic interface, that results a real nightmare for Real Time operations.
          But you are also right with generalization. I remember the old motto: “Every absolute statement, even this one, is false!” It comes from Bertrand Russell.
          In my post, I was only trying to be polite and diplomatic.

        • #3274502

          Or give them enough information to show bad credit…

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to Quickest way to shutdown salespeople

          I think if I was accosted by one of those digi-narcs armed with toys and not brains, I’d be more apt to call the law on him, but in the past when I have fallen victim to pushy all-sales-no-understanding script-clones (including insurance and used-car types), I just show such wild-eyed enthusiasm and try to get them to tell me of all the extras I can get, and have them start the paperwork. I don’t want to spend much time ON the paperwork, just enough for them to have something they must turn in or explain why the number sequence is out of order – – – if they’re really obnoxious, I may change my mind and put the add-ons in – one at a time, or delete it in favor of something else.

          Once the “transaction” is rolling and this guy’s drooling, I begin with the “I’m so glad this is on time payments, cuz this latest divorce has really screwed up my credit and I’d love to get it re-established with this purchase …” and give lurid details of the several kids I have from previous relationships, and the hassles of the mean courts and judges who have no sense of humor, ad nauseum, … until he finds a reason to head to the office for some questions, …

          … and continue down the mall.

          If he hasn’t learned by then, my business, being done, leaves me more time to keep occupied until he realizes how many potential contacts he has missed by talking to me.

          This ain’t hard, because I have people already referring me to others in Circuit City and Best Buy, and I’m there on legitimate business.

          What can I say? I’m good!

          For training, see “What About Bob?” with Bill Murray.

        • #3218490

          Do salespeople attack non-customers?

          by jimtheengineer ·

          In reply to The Salespeople are another bug bear of mine. :)

          You were walking to the bank – and a salesperson tried to sell you a computer? I’ve never run into that here (Minneapolis, MN USA) – is that common in Australia? Did he follow you into the bank and try to get your identity information, too?

          Trivia – we started it! Minneapolis area had the first enclosed mall – Southdale, 1956 – and now has the Mall of America (or what we call the “Megamall”).

          All in fun… :o)

        • #3218250

          Jim the bank in question is in a shopping centre

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Do salespeople attack non-customers?

          Or a Mall as I believe the Americans call them there. The Dell crown had piratically closed off all passage past their stand in the middle of and though fare and where attempting to stop as many people as possible and sell them something.

          This particular kid thought that he knew it all so he just had to teach me the error of my ways and sell me a $1,200.00 AU Dell NB. It’s not even heavy enough to use as a Boat Anchor. 🙁

          Or strong enough to bash someone to death with. Actually I should have tried that with the Demo one to see if it could pass my [b]Stress Testing![/b]. 😀

          The little Sod caught me twice once going to the bank and then on the way back to the car. Instead of looking for a potential sale he just had to instruct me on how good these things are. Then the next day when I was doing some work I got hit by him again. God I hate that place.


        • #3274500

          And you have switched banks, or complained strongly

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to Jim the bank in question is in a shopping centre

          n’est ?e pas?

          Would it do any good there to post an ad in Classifieds in the local paper asking for people who do not appreciate being accosted to reply to a PO Box you set up?

          That usually scares 7734 out of folks here.

        • #3274473

          Sorry, but don’t understand

          by maeseralf ·

          In reply to And you have switched banks, or complained strongly

          What do you mean? Asking for people to do what?

        • #3274476

          Here it may occur!

          by maeseralf ·

          In reply to Do salespeople attack non-customers?

          I don’t know the exact issue, but believe me. In my country there is a banking effort to get new accounts, that even they send me complete catalogs selling computers, entertainment tickes, coffe pots…, in the resumes of the month. Some bank offices has the stuff in the windows, in such way the people at the street will see them. I can believe this guy.

        • #3274574

          I sympathize, but

          by toms45 ·

          In reply to The Salespeople are another bug bear of mine. :)

          here’s a little old American way of getting rid of obnoxious sales weenies. Get up kind of close to him, look him in the eye, growl and scowl at him – “Get outta my face, Dipwad!”. But, if he’s bigger than you, just keep walking…LOL

        • #3274493

          Tellers of everything, sellers of nothing

          by maeseralf ·

          In reply to The Salespeople are another bug bear of mine. :)

          Funny version of the old history!
          Sure many of us have some in the way. They never will understand they are loosing customers so.
          Now I teach sales techniques. I always say: never brag against the thing the client bought! And never say the competitors are worse than me!
          Some salesman had told me that electronic equipment did not work for more than 5 years. He was trying to sell me a turntable with built-in preamplifier. I have a DC-coupled class AB split amplifier with FET input transistors, and 60W per channel power deck. But he said a modern class M is more reliable and with better sound quality. Modern is better, you know, even when comparing a truck from the 70s with a cycle of today. It never minds for them the class of the product.

        • #3274479

          Wow! I haven’t heard or read of FET’s in decades!

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to Tellers of everything, sellers of nothing

          Field Effect Transistors were a “new” term used in the late ’60’s and early ’70’s, but then they were a bit hissy and I avoided them. I suppose they are still used, but I haven’t seen anything about them in sales ads or owners’ manuals.


        • #3274469

          They are in the border even today

          by maeseralf ·

          In reply to Wow! I haven’t heard or read of FET’s in decades!

          Your answer is right, but the fact you don’t hear about them may be you are not in the electronics business. Even there are new vacuum tubes. The most modern dessign I have seen (the last year) is an amplifier compossed of four coupled FETs for input, and two DC biased Penthodes. They say it delivers a total RMS power of 15w, with the old sharp and hot sound of vaccum. Check in ELEKTOR magazine.
          In the industry of home electronics, they are using class B tiny amplifiers for Audio sets, built around FET-IC devices. For power sound, (in fact less than 50w) they use PWM to drive the speakers from the digital signal, this is class M. But in the entertainment industry (more than 100W RMS) you will find FET and Tubes still now.

        • #3274341

          Over the FETs

          by maeseralf ·

          In reply to Wow! I haven’t heard or read of FET’s in decades!

          Another thing I have to say. Nowadays they are almost the only sort of transistors used. The VLHSI devices that are now in the market are CMOS-FET. They are cheap, reliable, low compsumption, easy to make and scale, high current, high bandwidth, and for audio applications the real competitors with vacuum tubes. Only the work worse than these, in the low frecuency range. For the High-Mid, they are better.
          Today, bipolar transistors are used mainly in the low signal range, or as drivers for hybrid dessigns. Even you have a Hex-FET replacement for the veteran 2N3055/3155.
          There also are an almost modern device with four regions, the IGBT (a kind of thyristor), that is used for audio amplifying too.

        • #3274321

          Wow! I’d forgotten about bipolar transistors …

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to Over the FETs

          probably because they made such moody droids.

          (Sorry, but my funny bone took over my arm and attacked the keyboard.)

        • #3217651

          My aching brain

          by x-marcap ·

          In reply to Over the FETs

          I remember making 4 bit adders with transistors.

          I am really old…

        • #3274266

          RE: The Salespeople are another bug bear of mine (Joke)

          by tcbw ·

          In reply to The Salespeople are another bug bear of mine. :)

          Your story reminded me of an old joke I was told that (unfortuantely) I believe states the painfull truth about the sales force in general within the industry.

          What is the difference between a secondhand car salesman and an IT sales person?

          The secondhand car salesman knows when he’s lying!

          (I know it is a generalisation but . . . .

        • #3217137

          Sales sluts on the way to the bank?

          by kd5mid ·

          In reply to The Salespeople are another bug bear of mine. :)

          That is interesting that there are DELL sales people walking around banks and then for you to run into him again….That is amazing….That guy must really get around.

        • #3216880

          No he was on a stand outside of the bank

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Sales sluts on the way to the bank?

          Between the bank and my car so when I was going to the bank to pay for something that I had bought for a customer on E-Bay I got hit by him initially. After extracting myself I went to the bank and when I was returning to my car I got hit again by the same person.

          The next day I was doing some work at the same Mall in one of the shops and because then I’m considered as Staff I have to park in a certain area and the Dell stand was again between when I parked and where I needed to go. 🙁

          Generally I can go months without going near this horrible place but on this occasion 2 visits in 2 days was pushing the limits more than a bit. 🙁


        • #3217808

          F’in Salespeople

          by drowningnotwaving ·

          In reply to The Salespeople are another bug bear of mine. :)

          I’ve got an honours degree in Computing Science. When I did my industrial year (as part of the degree) I worked in the finance department of IBM installing PCs and teaching people how to use them. It was ’84. The XT and the AT were just coming out.

          People hated salesmen.

          “They don’t have to work too hard”.
          “They drive fast cars”.
          “They get expense budgets”.
          “They get to invite clients to golf, sporting events, heck even the ballet”.
          “They get paid too much in commission”.
          “They get overseas trips all expenses paid”.
          “They don’t have to know anything at all ‘cos the engineers are the ones that have to do the hard work”.

          Clearly they are just bludging bas-tards.

          I haven’t touched a computer in anger since I completed my degree. I had a letter offering me a job as a trainee sales person for IBM even before I went back to complete my final year in uni. Didn’t even have to study hard that year – from memory, seven subjects, seven passes and an average of 52% grade.

          And I found all of the above to be true.

          And it’s great. Pass me another Moet please. Did I say “please”? I meant “now”.

          So, spannerheads and wing-nuts, come on, do your worst…

        • #3217674

          Just remember if you had of been at IBM earlier

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to F’in Salespeople

          I would have been the one getting the sales and handing you the order to process for your commission.

          Whenever a Sales Person got involved in a sale that one of my staff hadn’t tied up completely we had a total mess to sort out and always without a doubt had the wrong hardware sold for the job at hand.

          I didn’t mind not getting the commissions but I did object to trying to fix messes that had been made by people who should have known better.


        • #3217660

          Don’t expect sympathy from me…

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to Just remember if you had of been at IBM earlier

          My team reviews contracts before they are sent to the client to approve, but often thats too late to make major changes.

          Whats worse is when the client demands changes, the salesperson agrees and we don’t receive the changed contract back to review.

          My team spends a great amount of time sorting these things out.


        • #3217567

          James that is why we made such great sales people

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Don’t expect sympathy from me…

          We knew the customer and exactly what was needed and locked up the hardware to suit their needs & demands. But being a lowly Techs we where not considered as Sales People so we had to pass the sale on to one of the sales people that we had tamed. Which meant that they only did the paper work for the commission and none of the hard work.

          Like who’s ever heard of a Tech selling a complete new system to a client back in those days it just couldn’t happen. 😀 But you always knew exactly where you stood with [b]Big Blue[/b] even if someone else was getting the credit for your work it was at least getting done properly.

          The big problems always came about because some sales person had visited a non client and sold them up to IBM from something else which didn’t work as expected. Of course the sales people would look at what was currently in stock with what they considered as large numbers and cheap and sell that as apposed to what was really required. I personally think that it was because of these people that the saying [b]No One ever got fired for buying IBM[/b] started. 😀

          Unfortunately my staff didn’t get involved till after the fitters had installed the new hardware and then we had to attempt to make it work. I’m fairly sure you know the procedure once this situation has been reached. :^0


        • #3217573

          Sales people and Army

          by maeseralf ·

          In reply to Just remember if you had of been at IBM earlier

          I remember one guy from Canon. He sold 2000 CanonFax units to one branch of our army, assuring they could be wired to their radio communications system. By the season I was working at Lanier as responsible of the Fax techs group. One of our sales person came with me asking my help. We had two devices able to work with four-wire lines in idle mode (not power in the line). We fix some devices to work in fishing ships. Well, the Canon machine couldn’t work that way, as it was only for normal lines, even with no external interface as RS-232. Our machines, all, had two ports, one DTE and one DCE to work with Crypto devices, or as stand alone scaner and printer. But the buyer and the seller didn’t work in the unit with the techs. That was a deal from the Headquarter offices, with Canon. When I tried to get our device working, it was impossible to me get the information I needed, as it was confidential. Conclusion: 2000 normal fax machines in the store. The unit working by the traditional means, and we with the suitable device in our hands.

        • #3218743


          by ljackson ·

          In reply to If we are going to rant…..

          Amen JD

        • #3218648

          Train the good ones Stay out of Computer stores

          by <brian lenon> ·

          In reply to Amen

          I have had the opportunity over the past two years to hire Student Interns form local Tech schools. Some have been programming students others have been Networking specialists. Over all I have to say it has been a positive experience. There seem top be only two kinds of students the ones who will be very soon on the sales floor at the local Best Buy extolling the virtues of how cool they are and how you don?t know Jack or the ones I have been fortunate enough to hire who have gone on to real computer/IT related jobs. I have to confess we don?t pay much to the interns but that is the way it is, we are a business and have to control costs. We do not hire them on as full time upon graduation they are encouraged to get a real job as we do not have enough extra work to fill a full time position and I want other students to have the chance to get some real world experience in the IT field.

        • #3218581


          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Train the good ones Stay out of Computer stores

          I have a bear of a time finding interships for my students. I wish more businesses would offer a low paying (no paying) internship. Most of my students would hop on board in a second…

          On the bright side, most of my students are pretty luck in that they are in the industry already.

        • #3218273

          Over here in AU Schools are a good place to get IT experience

          by mjwx ·

          In reply to Kudos

          as they generally don’t have a large IT dept. I got a few months (1 or 2 days a week) experience at a high school here in Perth whilst studying before getting my current job. It was weird coming from the school which used NT 4 to a small enterprise using 2003.

        • #3218229

          Oh Oh Oh

          by mr. hardware ·

          In reply to If we are going to rant…..

          This reminds me of someone I know; I told them NOT to install AOL this and Aol that. It’s hard to remove, and you can do the same thing with other product.

          What did they do?

          Told them call AOL, and your firend since they been in the PC tech game (they were not), and hung up the phone

        • #3274540

          they are on their own

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Oh Oh Oh

          In a personal setting, if someone goes against my specific advice, they are on their own, flapping in the wind. Lession learned.

          If it is at work, they get “It is a burden always being right, but I am used to it….”.

          Not arrogant, just correct. When you explain WHY, and someone does otherwise anyways and eXACTLY what you said WOULD happen, DID happen, they deserve to get a taunt.

        • #3217452

          You need one of these..

          by fred123456 ·

          In reply to If we are going to rant…..

        • #3217400

          Computer Sales Staff

          by scriptdummy ·

          In reply to If we are going to rant…..

          As the saying goes in my area “The only difference between a Compter Salesperson and a Used Car Salesperson is that the Used Car Salesperson knows he/she is lying.”

        • #3217210

          generalizations all!

          by gmalmos ·

          In reply to Computer Sales Staff

          why do you say that? You cannot truly believe that all people who sell things (pc’s for instance) are such idiotic losers. I am fixin to go to work for dell in one of their ‘kiosk’ stores to sell computers and tv’s etc. I have 12 yrs IT (desktop support) expierience. I challenge you to find bette computer equipment for the price (unless you build em yourself like I do). So what exactly will I be lying about? Generalizations suck as a general type of rule

        • #3274497

          Well, you’ve just made one and …

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to generalizations all!

          … in the process tarnished your credentials, I’m afraid.

          If you have 12 yrs IT support, I guess the best reason for your move is so you can relax while your customers try learning Hindi in order to get help from your new help desk, right?


        • #3217524

          Well since you like Generalisations so much

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to generalizations all!

          Here is one that I’m sure that all us old Fogeys would agree upon. :p

          Col ]:)

        • #3218176

          I have been trying to post a thanks for over an hour

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to Well since you like Generalisations so much

          but I’ve moved to an older HP and IE7 won’t let TR take my responses.

          I can’t see how it can just be me that can’t make M$ crap work right.

          Otherwise, those were a great post.

          … Ok, I got it to work with FireFox, so I guess I’ll just shut down IE7. Another M$ crock. It’s so frustrating that M$ cannot produce a reliable product, but can spend billions on rhetoric and moronic slogans; maybe they should cross-train their ad writers.

          Anyway. I have seen some of the error messages, but the poor little mouse was hilarious!

        • #3218010

          Same thing happens to me in Firefox

          by shelli_2005 ·

          In reply to I have been trying to post a thanks for over an hour

          it just started in the last few weeks, I thought maybe it was the site

        • #3217968


          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to I have been trying to post a thanks for over an hour

          I think it’s the new generation getting wierd over cookies, but in IE7, there seems to be another crapout with Java. The controls say it’s running, but this post says it’s not, so I’m just clicking on my link in my Juno Mail then highlighting the address and ^C and opening FF2 and ^V and that works – – – for now.

          It’s a shame Juno won’t let me configure to open in the browser of MY choice rather than theirs. Hear that UnitedOnLine? Get crackin’ because M$ is going to lose you customers with their new crap.

        • #3225890

          As good, and cheaper!

          by maeseralf ·

          In reply to generalizations all!

          Do you know Airis? They sell more stuff than Dell, and the same quality at least.

        • #3274517


          by badferret ·

          In reply to Computer Sales Staff

          Q How do tell that a used car salesman is lying?
          A: His lips are moving.

          Q: How do you tell a computer salesman is lying?
          A: Hes breathing.

        • #3274496

          You’re soooooooooo wrong!

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to salesmen

          If he’s breathing, he’s stopped talking for a nanosecond. Boy, I thought you were sharp, but …

        • #3274559

          Lookie Lews are everywhere–True story, haha

          by meanderradio ·

          In reply to If we are going to rant…..

          That reminds me of a story about this old furniture/carpet store-owner in our town (he’s still working, in his 70s) who got someone good for doing what you described.

          There was this woman that kept coming in the store and taking vast amounts of time looking at carpet color swatches and asking all kinds of questions. She would never buy anything, just came in to get information. Well the old guy was onto her, and one day she came in, and made a decision on which color of carpet she wanted. (Of course she had found a better deal somewhere else, and was just going ‘local’ to hone her selection)
          She told him which one she would likely buy, and asked him to write down the product and color number for her. He gave it to her, all right.

          The woman ended up with a housefull of purple carpet that she couldn’t send back. True story.

        • #3274543


          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Lookie Lews are everywhere–True story, haha

          “honest mistake Ma’am! I am sure I would have caught it before I had installed the wrong carpet!”

          The big question is, did she have the nerve come back and complain?

          Yeah, people like that really annoy me. They don’t care that they are wasting someone elses time or resources, because they still think it is all about them, in their pathetic little worlds.

        • #3274552

          The sword swings both ways in this battle.

          by psifiscout ·

          In reply to If we are going to rant…..

          I have 10 years experience and two degrees in PC support and Networking. I took a job that is not quite in line with my training (as a graphic artist), I try to save the boss trouble calling on the tech support issues but rather than let me mess up his precious network, he allows delays to occur in order to have his “favorite” techie, do the work. This happens regularly even though I have proven time after time that I am capable of doing the tech support tasks. So the techie that operates in the arrogant mode is not the only problem here.

        • #3274541

          but you forget

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to The sword swings both ways in this battle.

          that isn’t what your boss is paying you to do. Did you think that maybe he wants you do to your job instead of playing with the computers?

          just a thought….

        • #3274495

          That was rude and not thought-out!

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to but you forget

          If the writer is being slowed down and takes his wait time to make the system work better so he can do his work more effeciently, what’s the harm?

          You must be in “Boss” level yourself. Sometimes we need to read the lines before we get between them.

          I know, I wrote the article about almost being fired. The problems still exist because morons with power think ignorance is power – and, unfortunately – it is.

        • #3274391

          Lots of harm

          by weegeordie ·

          In reply to That was rude and not thought-out!

          There is lots of harm letting anyone other than the tech who is paid to do the job work on a system. Is the user following the same standards as the tech department? Has he communicated the issue and work done to resolve the problem to the tech department? How are they tracking problem trends, fix status, upgrade plans, etc? Who is doing the graphics work?

        • #3274384

          If you want to see rude….

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to That was rude and not thought-out!

          your looking in the wrong place. (you thought there was going to be an insult there, didn’t you?)

          Stop and re-read both my last post and the one I responded to. He took a job NOT as a tech, but a Graphic Artist. THAT is what his boss wants him to do because THAT is what his boss is PAYING him for. How is that rude or “not-thought-out”, to point our the obvious?

          Boss? Not I. I DO know what my duties are and what is expected out of me. I also know that if I don’t do what is expected out of me, I will be replaced.

          If he wants to play Net Adimin, he should apply for the job.

          Do you have a mechanic that you always trust to work on your car, or do you just take it to whoever has a sale on, or the first one you run across?

          How many times have people here had to RE-fix computer problems because a user that plays with computers decides he is going to FIX a system? He makes a change to “optimise”, but is not aware that something is set that way for a reason, and all of a sudden an application doesn’t work or a system is now vulnerable to exploit.

          Do your job. If you want to do something other than what you were hired to do, get a different job instead of complaining that people won’t let you do something instead of your job. He can rant about it to get it off his chest, but his boss is not out of line by having him do HIS job.

        • #3274355

          I understand your point and partly agree, but …

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to If you want to see rude….

          and this is the granddaddy of all buts: We’re responding to the core article of people who know what they’re doing being pushed around by a group of “Arrogant lil … co workers”.
          The previous poster stated his position well enough that – given the situation as he expressed it – experienced ITs would generally agree with and not find offensive.

          Case in point – albeit in a different arena: I know someone who – in their fifties – took out a membership in the local indoor swimming facility. Their first day disclosed that “life-guards” were flirting while several kids around 5-6 were floating into the center of the large (olympic size) pool. Nobody was watching them. This person headed to the Aquatics Director’s office and raised the ceiling. As a result, this person was hired to help the director to retrain and force the lazy staff to do their job. Lives were at stake. There were, as it turned out, some lifeguards who had tried to get the dangerous ones in line, but your cry, “Do Your Job!” prevented them from properly doing the job needed and – again lives were/are at risk.

          When I started at a certain business, it had been known that I had experience far beyond anyone else on that campus, so I was not hired until they were so helpless they were hiring anyone with a pulse.

          I did my job. I did it well. I did it better than anyone else around me. When I tried to use methods to preserve my work and reduce the cost to the business, I was nearly fired.

          I hope I don’t need to get too gory about those in Nazi Germany Death camps who “did their job”, do I?

          The fault, stupidity, and loss of business is due to people who are ignorant and powerful imposing their stupidity on others more qualified than themselves. Later, they conveniently blame those who “did their job” for the mess and business suffers, customers suffer, workplace attitude suffers, and the downward spiral begins.

          Once those morons build a quorum, neither you nor I can get into the position to make the needed difference, and ultimately everybody loses their job when the company folds. I know, I’ve been there.

          But I should also tell you: I do what I’m told; I do only what I’m told; and I do nothing other than what I’m told now. I have a life outside of work, but can see that my fellow-workers do not. Sad.

        • #3274499

          How right are you!

          by maeseralf ·

          In reply to If we are going to rant…..

          Hi, friend!
          In fact this happened to me years ago. I was managing a little consultancy firm about computer technology. We sell computer stuff also. Many people came asking for a computer for their children, pretending to select the whole thing by themselves. They always wanted the last computer from PC-World. Or they asked for assistance, we had to spent two or more hours looking for the best choice. Then they where to “Carrefour” to buy a Compaq, or an PackardBell, or a Tandom PC. A week after, they came begging a repair, or the printer cable, or for 5.25 floppies.
          Many “skilled” people that knows nothing! Even I had to hear once: He knows a lot about computer science; He is a lawyer!
          Well, we are whom we are!

        • #3274489

          I forgot something

          by maeseralf ·

          In reply to If we are going to rant…..

          Sorry, I forgot to say in my reply that they wanted the repair done for free; the computer was under warranty! I’m speaking about the year 93 or 94.

      • #3274534

        Same Same

        by drinkmetoo ·

        In reply to Unfortunately is is becoming more common

        Change the name, and a few other things; it’s me. Thanks, now I don’t feel so old or alone.

    • #3216108


      by oz_media ·

      In reply to Arrogant lil workers

      I’ve said for years now that IT is no longer this grand career for the highly educated, social misfits.

      Anyone with a pulse can be an MCSE or a network engineer. It’s no a world where such people are rare, its common knowledge as ‘regular people’ become immersd more and more into the IT world each day.

      There are still many IT pros who feel they are the all knowing God’s that IT staf were once seen as, but now they are just someone else that can fix it.

      Yes, an MCSE is no more than a grade 12 certificate these days, it isn’t worth much at all, except for people who rely on gathering certs to find menial jobs, instead of progressively seekign a career (in which case, certs are usually not an issue at all).

      Put up with it, get used to it. What made you an expert five, ten years ago, makes a kid average these days.

      • #3216061

        And there are ….

        by darrylb ·

        In reply to Yup

        Those who cant afford an MCSE (they are an expensive piece of tripe in australia) and trying to further a career without one in an industry where too much focus is placed on the damned things.


        • #3216058

          You don’t need certs

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to And there are ….

          You need assertion and the ability to convince someone to hire you. Create a plan, target an employer, study the company, think long and ard about what you will do for them. Decide what they are going to give you in return and what value you can show the boss.

          Don’t use the newspaper (2% success rate) don’t just look for ads and companies that are hiring.

          Cold call the employer and get the owners name, manager of busines development, vice president, ANYONE other than HR!!!Don’t leave Voice Mail or messages, speak directly or say you want to catch him/her personally and will call back. Is 2PM better?

          Pitch yourself and your skills, ask for an interview. No interview, ask for LEADS !!!!! Nobody does this and it works like a hot damn. I’ve had prospects (potential employers) who actually call and set up meetings for me (a good foot in the door for sure).

          It is so easy once you just get comnfortable approaching employers like prospects and selling yourself like a product with great benefits his company needs.

          Finding work IS work, not just patience. Go to it, seek it out and create it yourself. The best part is you will be able to name your price this way, instead of filling a void.

        • #3274571

          You are so right!

          by toms45 ·

          In reply to You don’t need certs

          I’m currently in the job search arena and I’m ashamed to admit, I never considered your suggestions. I’ll give it a try this week. Thanks for the new ideas…

        • #3274464

          I did it 25 years before!

          by maeseralf ·

          In reply to You don’t need certs

          That’s the way the things are well done. I realize it for my first paid job, and I won. So, I teach this to my pupils, when learning the search for a job. And I teach unemployed people, and people currently employed. Normally, all of them are looking for ads in a site as Monster, or Laboris. But it is hard to get the people skilled about this.

        • #3216029

          OZ is right here

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to And there are ….

          And while you are in Townsville where they have some strange thinking if you avoid the Government and Big Business Jobs there are plenty of jobs in the IT Field available. But you do need to avoid HR. When I used to work Big Business I would allow HR to do the initial screenings and then grab all the rejected applications and find my staff from there. The staff where always great and worked well though the person at HR got their nose out of joint more than once with me. 😀

          What I didn’t like about Townsville was the mentality there it went like this [b]We Don’t want you Southerners coming up here telling us what to do no matter just how little it is we know we are going to ignore you at every opportunity.[/b] We had one faulty part that was replaced UG on every machine that we serviced and then to be told that I didn’t know what I was talking about by the Distributer in Townsville was more than slightly galling particularly after I went around with him and pointed out 25 of these things that needed replacing in the first hour which he had never bothered to look at.

          But OZ is correct pick a business that you want to work at and then work at getting a job there the better that you sell yourself the more secure the job will be. But just try to avoid places run by accountants as they are always out for the cheapest available person and to hell with the results we are saving a few $ per hour so we are getting better value for money.

          The people who are impressed by the Certs & letters after your name are not the ones worth impressing in the first place you need to avoid any HR departments and approach the Manager/Director whatever and make them think that you are worth the time & effort to get you to work for them.


        • #3274329

          About HR department

          by maeseralf ·

          In reply to OZ is right here

          How a psychologist may know if a person is a good tech?
          When I was searching my first position, as air-navigation engineer, the person doing the selection process for CASA (one of the EADS/AirBus companies) said they have nothing to work with Avionics. Well, he said me this two times. By the moment, CASA was involved in the dessign of the CN-235 mid-range aircraft, the Nav-Com satellite set, and the A-330 aircraft, among other programs. They had two Cray Main frame, a network of midi-comps with a hundred VT-100 work-stations, and a department for avionic dessign in other site. Why they should need an electronic related engineer? (That was what the psychologist said).
          Normally, when the company has more than 50 employees, the HR deparment, or the consultancy company that makes the selection, knows very little about the work the copany needs to cover. And nothing about the actual skills the position requires. They just can’t understand the matter.

        • #3217123

          EXCUSE me

          by shelli_2005 ·

          In reply to And there are ….

          but I worked my a$$ off for my MSCE thank you very much!
          Not all of us cheat and use brain dumps and stuff.I know there are a butt-load of “paper MCSE’s” out there but I don’t consider myself one of them and I don’t appreciate you calling the all the hours I spent building my practice lab and staying up half the night studying “tripe”. NOT to mention the money I invested.I did it on my own no help from my company to prove it to myself that I could do it.
          As it turns out alot of what I learned during study I have used at work.
          Not to mention the satisfaction of giving myself a challenge and knowing that I succeeded by hard work and perseverence .

        • #3217082

          Sounds like you may have what IT takes…

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to EXCUSE me

          … but beware; you may also become so proficient and thoughtful that the combination of holey OS’es and programs, coupled with ignorant demands on the part of your bosses/clients can and will take all the joy out of your dedication to learn. Don’t laugh and don’t take offense. It just happens, and the harder you try, the more frustrated you become.

          Keep your day job, but look for hobbies that can pay when you need some time and space.

          … Been there, done that, but come back because my drive to learn won’t let me quit completely.

          Mazel Tov!

        • #3217666

          And exactly why did you do a MSCE?

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to EXCUSE me

          It wasn’t for the job but something that you wanted to do and the fact that you worked for it makes it that much better in your eyes.

          But honestly how many have you seen walk in and wave a bit of paper around and expect the world to fall at their feet?

          Now for the down side of MSCE’s they only teach you part of the IT infrastructure as they are devoted to M$ Product at the expense of everything else aren’t they?

          There are some places where any MS Cert is as useful as [b]Teats on a Bull[/b] and others where they can be very useful.

          Unfortunately they teach you to think in a narrow view of the IT world and fail to give you the diverse rich work environment that is really available to all IT professionals if they go look.

          Don’t get me wrong I think more power to you but you also have to realise that there where computers before M$ and they will be there after M$ is forgotten. If you tie yourself to just one technology there is an awful lot of hard work catching up you’ll have to do when things start to change.


        • #3225977

          A physician needs a Beecham diploma?

          by maeseralf ·

          In reply to And exactly why did you do a MSCE?

          To say that you need an MSCE to become an expert in computing, is like to ask a physician for diplomas granted by Pharmaceutical companies. What an MSCE grants is you agree with the terms a company decide the market to be. But I don’t know any MSCE that knows the half I know about computing. They may be proficient in OFFicce, or in Windows, but I was testing the first beta version of the NT, and nobody knew then what MSC meant. And I use WordPerfect, as no other suite gives me such power. Do you know any MSCE whom may use WP X3 proficiently? I am with OFFicce 2000, even I teach it. I have an official diploma from an University, and eXPerience, that’s all you need to be an expert on everything.

        • #3223738

          EXPERT is a Latin word isn’t it?

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to A physician needs a Beecham diploma?

          X = the unknown quantity and spurt is a [b]Drip Under Pressure.[/b]

          Actually I agree any form of Industry standard certification is worthless if it only teaches one side of the business no matter what that may be. I thought that I said that above as well. Great for M$ but hopeless for the real world.

          This was brought home to me the other day when I was on a tele conference about business and one of the other people involved said we only use M$ product as we are a M$ Small Business specialist. All I had asked is would this program that was being shown interface with Apache as well as Exchange. Seems that no one actually knew what Apache was and where horrified when I mentioned a non M$ product as a possible offering to the Small Business world.

          Of course the bad side of this is that with attitudes like this being so prevalent in the Small Business IT Sector I’m not going to be able to retire for a very long time to come. At least I suppose that I know that I have Job Security for a very long time to come. 🙂


        • #3223658

          Yes, it is!

          by maeseralf ·

          In reply to EXPERT is a Latin word isn’t it?

          Apache? Is not a man with feathers? Oh, no, wait… It is an aircraft!
          The funny issue is they were using Apache to do the connection, sure. Well, I have it in my Apple, and in the XP. It is the server for my intranet, meanwhile I arrange an outgoing server. You knows, Micro-brain ego-Soft. Why UNIX is still working, if it is so weird? It comes from 1968, isn’t it? But I’m seeing the add from Sun to download Solaris 10, right now! And it works on AMD X64. How much of those M$ certifieds will get Windows accesing OS-X in a nap? I have no problem sharing files, music and resources. But I know a graphic dessigner whom had to buy a windows PC, just because their customers couldn’t open their phd files.
          Salve, sir!

        • #3223652

          By the way

          by maeseralf ·

          In reply to EXPERT is a Latin word isn’t it?

          This is not tech related.
          If you take away Latin from Spanish, all you have is Greek, with some few Arab words.

        • #3223596

          Expert is indeed Latin

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to EXPERT is a Latin word isn’t it?

          but your translation is faulty.

          Ex means “used to be” or “formerly.” Thus, an expert is a has-been drip under pressure.

          Edit: spelled the wrong word write.

        • #3216383

          Ego dixit experiri

          by maeseralf ·

          In reply to EXPERT is a Latin word isn’t it?

          Hi, Nielsen!
          In fact, Expert coms from the Latin “Expertum” (Demonstrated, proved), which is the simple past form of “Experior – Experiri” (Try, prove, test, find out – Experience, Knowledge from living).
          So it means “To know from what have been lived”. Also is Ex-perior (out of live)

      • #3274491

        While I can agree with most of what you say …

        by media-ted9 ·

        In reply to Yup

        That bit about, “What made you an expert five, ten years ago, makes a kid average these days.” isn’t really useful, … and I’ll be happy to tell you why:
        We who fought our way through command lines and interpreter programming found that we could make things work and work well. We established that there was a Standard, and Quality could be achieved and maintained; but then came M$, … and DO$ 6 and we discovered that OS’es can spell doom for the best written lines of code – no matter what.

        We have come to scorn and reject that, but youngsters have been spoon-fed to accept it and “live with it”, and the decline of uninterrupted production in computers is nearly extinct.

        Things like WGA and false positives are totally unacceptable to us, but M$ is counting on the younger set to accept and live with it until the entire commercial world could topple and nobody will notice, care, or think anything should be done about it – – – it’s job security, so it’s good. I can’t run the demo-system, but I can repeat the lines I was taught, and since I’m totally ignorant, I can make up stuff and not feel guilty.

        I quit a business in Florida, MY OWN, when I had the misfortune of taking on a salesman, … and he made promises nobody could have fulfilled. I spent a year just trying to program my way out of the mess he created. He had his commission, and I was left with the work.

        Youngsters have only started with Icons, but we old geekzers know so much more that could help them achieve real success for their customers, … and still put something in their wallets.

        If today’s kids don’t know what we do, they are not a useful “average”. Sorry.

        • #3217115

          I couldn’t agree more…

          by obviator ·

          In reply to While I can agree with most of what you say …

          i recieved my degree in computer science last year, after 25 years mucking about with computers. The degree says i really DO know what i’ve been doing. During my sojourn in academia i earned a reputation as a charter member of the ABM club (not that i carry a card) largely because i kept trying to convince people that had never seen a command line how much power there is in it and how limiting a GUI really is. Why should any machine, particularly a server, spend all its horsepower painting pretty pictures on the screen when it would be a far better use of its power to show a command line and use that power where it belongs.

          Needless to say i didn’t get very far in this approach. Most of the kids just couldn’t comprehend anything beyond a GUI. i have to believe that computer teching is the next McDonalds.

      • #3274455

        Down with Certs!

        by brandonforest ·

        In reply to Yup

        I’ve been in the business for 22 years, since DOS 2.11. I’m still learning about it. I don’t bother with certs because they only slow me down and cost me money. I always cross-train with the latest technologies. I sell my services from a proven track record, and pickup new skills as I go. I consider all positions for three things. 1)$$$, 2)What am I going to learn, 3)How the position will further my career.

    • #3216062


      by darrylb ·

      In reply to Arrogant lil workers

      I work for a big IT company as a field consultant.

      In the course of my travels i encounter these twits on help desks all the time.

      You are not alone in your rantings… hehehe

      • #3218769

        Chicken or the Egg….What was first?

        by woodys_world69 ·

        In reply to TOO FUNNY

        Its the same scenario. I work in an Internet Helpdesk, and get calls from customers stating there DSL not working and they have a tech there. PC tech gets on the phone and says “mate its a problem on the line or at the exchange, its nothing here”. And then to be sure before investigating the phone line, you have to asks questions about PC and phone configurations in the house, and they just say “yep yep, dont need to check all them are fine. And after that finish yelling that its a line fault, they ask, “whats this double adapter thing that came with the modem”. The grin on my face widens as i realise hes talking about an ADSL filter…….and yes i think you guys get the drift. Ego’s are not age specific at all.

        P.S anybody that plays WoW are missing a few cans short of a six pack.

        • #3218634

          I remember one like that

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Chicken or the Egg….What was first?

          But in my case I was the one insisting that the Filter was in the wrong socket and that the line was dead, which it was.

          Apparently some one had just plugged in the DSL modem to a direct line and them held the filter in their hot little hand and thought [b]What Do I do With This?[/b] then plugged it into a unused phone socket. Of course when I got called in everything except the filter had been disconnected and I had no idea of how the place had been setup originally. I kept saying that I couldn’t get any form of signal on that line and I was told that I shouldn’t be able to.

          When they sent out a tech who then played around for about 2 hours to discover that it was in the wrong socket [i]which I had been saying all along[/i] and then their tech grabbed me and asked me to use my P Touch and label the correct socket. 😀

          Then he threw the filter in the rubbish as it was a dedicated DSL line they didn’t need voice communication on it.


        • #3219195

          missing a few cans

          by shellbot ·

          In reply to Chicken or the Egg….What was first?

          any reason why people who play WoW are missing a few cans?

          you ever played it?

          Ok, there’s more than a few nuts playing, but a whole load of us regualar folk as well, just trying to unwind after a hard days work


    • #3216054

      Unfortunately, that’s the way IT is going

      by mjd420nova ·

      In reply to Arrogant lil workers

      The HR departments know so little about what IT people really do, they think anyone can do the job. I have seen some help desk people that are so young and the manager is the youngest. They have no idea of what it means to take down a users description of a fault and then be sure that it gets communicated to the field people. Minimum wage is what they get and they have egos and attitude that you’d expect to find in a ten year hands on veteran. They talk the talk, but have no idea how to put one foot in front of the other. I’ve attempted to train such individuals, but I now refuse to train anyone unless they have an electronics background, I don’t care how many certs they have. Papers are for the dogs bog, and don’t mean squat in the field.

    • #3218776

      I’m that lil “co-worker”

      by snipermike87 ·

      In reply to Arrogant lil workers

      I have to say being the little coworker, that it is what we do in order to try to get some respect in the work place. Over the summer I worked at the local school department’s IT department, im a sophomore in high school, so i guess i’m not that little, but u have to be that “know it all” or the “more experienced” will shaft you and give you the grunt work jobs. but i completely understand where you are coming from because i also work at my college’s computer store and there the freshman come in acting like that and BOY do i wanna slap them around. When i do it i try not to be arrogant, but these little noobs, they dont hold back. they talk themselves into a hole and try to get out of it. its really quite fun to laugh about it later. wow ive been ranting awhile too. ah whatever. have a good one

      • #3218679

        Watch your steps and check the ego at the door

        by jdclyde ·

        In reply to I’m that lil “co-worker”

        People appreciate someone that can and will get the job done, and get it done the right way.

        NO ONE likes a big mouthed punk (regardless of age). It is an instant turn-off (think I even saw that in a playboy centerfold list of turnoffs, “mouthy geeks” 😀 )

        Do you know the best way to win people over? Just do your job. You CAN present your ideas without them being an attack. And remember always, when you are the new blood, it is YOU that has to win over everyone, not the other way around.

        Don’t take crap, but present your ideas, and let whoever is in charge make the decisions. You get paid the same to do it wrong at his direction as you do to do it correctly. After it doesn’t work, chances are your solution will get a chance.

        • #3217192

          impossible to win..

          by katokato ·

          In reply to Watch your steps and check the ego at the door

          I agree, when you are new you have to work hard to win over everyone. But what do you do when a ‘know it all’ has very limited knowledge of what the project at hand demands (i was hired a tech lead)but wants things done his way. What do you do when all the team members are ‘know it all’ and refuse to listen to you ideas. I quit this job after 4 weeks, i felt instead of working productively towards my deadline, i am being forced to listen to their limited knowledge ideas and being told that my ‘idea is half as***’. Not only that one of the team members evern insulted me twice by mocking at my solution. I quit after he insulted me 2nd time. I figured this pattern will not end, and i will end up with a failed project.

          I tried my best to listen to their ideas, incorporte them in my solution but they were exact opposite of what my boss had asked me to do. I think they all were tyring to make me quit and so i did, but i still wonder what could i have done different? How could i handle it better next time, because there are a lot of ‘know it all’ out there.

        • #3274538

          “hi, I was wondering if I could run some ideas by you”

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to impossible to win..

          flattery. lead people to a solution, but let them THINK it is their solution.

          If someone has an idea counter to yours, ask them to explain the benifits of their idea vs the down sides of your idea.

          When they are rude, be direct. “When you say XXXXX, it makes me feel like you do not trust my skills/judgement/ have respect for me as a worker and a person”.

          Sounds corny, but conflict resolution is very important. If your work ever offers for you to go to a class on this, I strongly recommend it.

          And the new “guy” always has to prove THEMSELVES, not the other way around. Come in with ego, you are toast. Many geeks are also territorial, and will snap at anyone they see as a threat.

        • #3274465

          Good words!

          by maeseralf ·

          In reply to “hi, I was wondering if I could run some ideas by you”

          You seem a Mentor. That is the way to deal with Human Relations while in negotiation.
          You are very right, only might need a little nailing in the expression, for a better understanding. But you have said it in the shortest space available. Good job!

        • #3274318

          great suggestions! what does a “gal” do when they start f*** this and …

          by katokato ·

          In reply to “hi, I was wondering if I could run some ideas by you”

          I think it is even tougher if you are a “gal” and your team is full of jerks. Imagine sitting in a dev group meeting with five guys and all are going f*** this and f*** that, including director of department. Could i have asked to quit swearing, i am offended?

          I did try flattery but i will definately be more direct and on the spot to respond to their first rude comments next time (on my next job).

        • #3274296

          When dealing with crude jerks

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to great suggestions! what does a “gal” do when they start f*** this and …

          there isn’t a lot that you can do but walk away, tolerate it, or file a lawsuit.

          Walking away is in my opinion the best choice, as tolerating it puts you in a situation you shouldn’t have to deal with.

          Lawsuits are costly, and the burden of proof is completely on you, and if it is just your word vs theirs, you will lose. It can be expensive and take years, all the while putting a big target on your back, as well as making the next employer think twice about hiring you.

          I would personally be reluctant to hire anyone who had sued a previous employer.

          I got rid of my “shop talk” when I got into the computer field, but work with several people that are not above using language like that. As long as my kids are not in the office, I ignore it.

        • #3274286

          re:great suggestions! what does a “gal” do when they start f*** this and ..

          by pcrx_greg ·

          In reply to great suggestions! what does a “gal” do when they start f*** this and …

          If your coworkers are using objectionable language, it is up to you to politely tell them that they are offending you. If you do this politely and ask if they would refrain from using that type of language, then the onus (morally and legally) falls upon them to comply with your wishes. The next step if this doesn’t work, is to schedule a meeting with both your boss and his boss to discuss the problem. This puts everyone on notice that the problem needs to be dealt with immediately. Also document every discussion that you have with anyone in the company in regards to the problem. There is no reason that you have to put up with such boorish behavior, and any saavy business owner or executive knows the possible consequences of what is commonly deemed as harrasment. If in the end you feel the only solution is to quit, then you will have documentation when you go for unemployment hearings or any legal proceedings you wish to pursue.

        • #3217084

          Freedom of speech vs hostile work environment

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to re:great suggestions! what does a “gal” do when they start f*** this and ..

          I am not sure where the line is drawn.

          If the language is not used in a sexual context, then there is no sexual harrassment.

          If the language is not aimed at someone, such as “F##k YOU!”, then it is not hostile.

          If someone is just an uncultured weasle with a potty mouth, a REASONABLE person might see you as having only a limited say in the matter.

          Remember, to not be insulted is NOT a constitutionally protected right.

          It does sicken me the people that think this is jackpot time and thing because they have their feelings hurt they should be made rich by the courts.

          But not being there, it is impossible to make distinctions.

          Good luck either way.

        • #3216883

          thanks for suggestions…

          by katokato ·

          In reply to re:great suggestions! what does a “gal” do when they start f*** this and ..

          yeah! i could have but i was so surprised when our director of our it department was using the same language. who do i go complain? being few two weeks old in the company, i really didn’t know what to do, But to quit.

          But thanks guys, for great suggestions and support.

        • #3217067

          Although the sound may offend you, the real problem…

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to great suggestions! what does a “gal” do when they start f*** this and …

          is that these noisy boobs have nothing other or better on their minds or in their vocabularies.

          As a man, I am not considered in a position to take offense as much as a lady. As a lady, you can – sometimes – command respect with your body-language alone; but,

          Why bother? The obvious here is that you’re in a pack of stupids, and there is no way you’re going to develop this mob into an intelligent team of anything. Even as a guy, I’d do what I could to keep from growing postal while I began circulating applications elsewhere.

          “Reason for leaving?”; “am seeking a place where ideas and quality are constantly developing” – not “I just couldn’t stand a room full of potty-mouthed fools pretending to be intelligent elitists”.

          Staying, in my experience will only result in your increasing bitterness and negatively affecting your expectations elsewhere. Exit in an orderly manner so all can escape to safety – and, perhaps, a better life.

          Always be a Lady (Lady is the fem. of Lord = one who is in a position of autonomy and control). Always.

        • #3216877

          moving on..

          by katokato ·

          In reply to Although the sound may offend you, the real problem…

          ur right. they all are bunch of was not a place worth staying. next time if some peers start garbage talk with me,i will handle him more sternly or pack my bags and send in resignation as i did last week.

          good suggestion for leaving.

        • #3274573

          “and let whoever is in charge make the decisions”

          by footlessrabbit ·

          In reply to Watch your steps and check the ego at the door

          There in is the problem. Certs got the decision marker the position.

          When they do make a decision it ussually costs me over time fixing/repairing/re-thinking something else.

          My favorite qoute…
          “The difference between a theorist and a physicist is that theorist don’t make mistakes. They also don’t do the work.”

          We talk about noobs coming in with arrogance but there exists a problem in the upper levels, too. Trying to convience someone, that believes they ‘know it all’, that installing MSDE over the top of MS SQL Std is not a good idea was so difficult that they did it without tell me. And then proceded to fire off an email about the SQL instance failures were my fault. Screen shots are a wonderfull thing.

          I can deal with arrogant noobs. It’s having to work weekends becuase something is now a hot button that was proposed 3 years ago but ignored or tossed off as rubish.

          Is this turning into a rant blog?

          Well, I feel better, anyway.

        • #3274537

          Primal scream……

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to “and let whoever is in charge make the decisions”

          If you get paid for your OT, their stupidity just got you a bigger check.

          If you do not, sucks to be you. :0 ;\

          The FIRST time someone toasts something and then tries to blame it on me is the last time, and right up the food chain I would march with proof that I was not the one and the weasle that did it not only made a mess but then lied to THEIR boss about it. People rarely are in a position to try that cute trick twice.

      • #3218269

        Like JD said, Check the ego at the door.

        by mjwx ·

        In reply to I’m that lil “co-worker”

        First let me get clich?’s out of the way “respect is earned and not given”. Don’t expect to be respected first day on the job, that will make you look arrogant. In an IT organisation you will quickly learn who is worth respecting and who is not regardless of what certificates they hold. Endear yourself to those who have earned the respect of their colleagues and you’ll learn a lot from them and once you’ve learnt a bit you’ll get respect.

        Next I’m a bit older than you (10 years) but I’m a lot younger than JD and many of the others so I can understand where you’re coming from. This being said, listen to the others (JD, Hal, Deadly and the rest) they know what their doing and have years of useful experience to boot (except when politics are involved, then none of us know anything)

        Next I’ll say that no matter what career path you choose you will always, always, always get the sh!t jobs when you start out, do the work, don’t ever complain and you wont be doing those jobs for long. Chiefs begin their careers by washing dishes.

        If you have useful ideas contribute them but don’t argue because you believe their choice is wrong, 1. Its their choice 2. They have spent a lot longer thinking about it than you have. If you want to be taken seriously, ask for some extra duties, possibly outside your job description. You can bet your bottom dollar that your boss has too many management duties some of which can be handed off to you , maybe there’s a report you could write for him/her and there’s always documentation that needs doing (I should be doing the new power plan instead of posting on TR, see what I sacrifice for you people 😀 ).

        Well that’s about all the career advice I can give for today, point in short: if you do a good job (and don’t complain) you will get respect.

        PS, don’t call people noobs. No one will respect you for name-calling, especially if they are n00bs.

        Edit: Emoticons

        • #3274535


          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Like JD said, Check the ego at the door.

          you are not a [b]LOT[/b] younger than me!

        • #3274488

          Just as there are kaka jobs, there are also kaka companies

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to Like JD said, Check the ego at the door.

          Unfortunately, the turn-over rate at kaka,LLc is greater, meaning your chances of being hired there, and several others, is mighty high – unless your uncle owns the good (kalos) company.

          If you want a position in a good (kalos) company, you’re gonna need to “pay your dues” for a while, … that means you gotta eat, so work at kaka #1, 2, … and keep finding the best place for your skills and interests, then stop by and call – – – often until the hiring guy realizes it’s easier for him to hire you and pass you on to someone else than continue dealing with you himself. (This worked for my wife with Honeywell/Bull and it was the only job she ever really enjoyed, but it took a few years to wear HR down. Later she was hand picked for a team working on the final project before H/B closed out their mainframe R&D.)

          Me? I have knocked around and found very little that was solid gold, so I now work for a kaka firm, but have four months a year to myself with compensation. It works for me more than I work for it. … But … I’m almost 60, so factor that in.

      • #3217228


        by jmgarvin ·

        In reply to I’m that lil “co-worker”

        You need to make sure you know how to do things and do them well.

        As for those freshmen, you look like that to us. When you come in with the know it all attitude, I’m going to own your world. I’ll give you the hardest job I can possibly think of.

        A) To take you down a peg
        B) To let you know that you don’t know
        C) Give you the experience of REAL IT

        I think the biggest problem with those that are coming through high school now is that you guys see computers like a toaster…That’s a BAD route…

      • #3274532

        Gunt Work

        by drinkmetoo ·

        In reply to I’m that lil “co-worker”

        Grunt work is where learn. I hope you take it that way. It can also be a test of your knowledge and character. Make the cables, run the cables, put that system together, do it ALL with a smile. Years (I do mean years) from now you?ll get a problem, that what you learn now will solve, when no one else can. That will be your reward for everything you put up with now. Be the hero later, there is still time (oh, to be young and innocent again).

    • #3218754

      McDonalds Help Desk

      by mwells ·

      In reply to Arrogant lil workers

      I am an IT Director and I do belive that help desk is becoming “the new McDonalds”. Tech schools are churning out low-end techs by the thousands now, driving the wages of helpdesk and field team psotions through the floor. I used to see consultatns being paid 60K to be field team members for a large copmany I used to work for. Now, I see people happy to take the same job for $12.50 /hr. This increases the churn rate and burn-out rate of low to mid level IT staff.

      • #3218719

        Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments

        by jcelko212 ·

        In reply to McDonalds Help Desk

        You might want to look up this article:

        Journal of Personality and Social Psychology
        ? 1999 by the American Psychological Association

        Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One’s Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments
        Justin Kruger and David Dunning
        Department of Psychology
        Cornell University


        People tend to hold overly favorable views of their abilities in many social and intellectual domains. The authors suggest that this overestimation occurs, in part, because people who are unskilled in these domains suffer a dual burden: Not only do these people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it. Across 4 studies, the authors found that participants scoring in the bottom quartile on tests of humor, grammar, and logic grossly overestimated their test performance and ability. Although their test scores put them in the 12th percentile, they estimated themselves to be in the 62nd. Several analyses linked this miscalibration to deficits in metacognitive skill, or the capacity to distinguish accuracy from error. Paradoxically, improving the skills of participants, and thus increasing their metacognitive competence, helped them recognize the limitations of their abilities.

        • #3218643

          An age-old truth

          by flotsam70 ·

          In reply to Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments

          Wow…that is very interesting. I’ve always held that the more I learn, the more I’m aware of how much I don’t know! 🙂

        • #3218614


          by john lockie ·

          In reply to Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments

          That is very fascinating, thanks for sharing that.

          I think humility is the key role in whatever we do. You have to be confident to work in most IT environments, but you also need to recognize your place and the limitations of your expertise.

          I think the older people here are setting the trend. You blame the young newb for being arrogant, but look at what they are up against. A lot of older guys expect to be worshiped. How do you expect a teenager or someone in their 20’s to react to that? Harshly, at best.

          Strong humble leaders will build a solid IT staff of people who feel they can trust their management but also have the reigns to hit the ball out of the park when they are up to bat. It’s a balance.

          But great article you linked to!

        • #3217236

          Yes and no

          by jcelko212 ·

          In reply to fascinating

          >> you also need to recognize your place and the limitations of your expertise. << The quote from DIRTY HARRY! "A man has to know his limitations" >> I think the older people here are setting the trend. You blame the young newbie for being arrogant, but look at what they are up against. << Sophomore means "learned fool" >> older guys expect to be worshiped. << "gray hair is a sign of old age, not wisdom" -- Czech proverb I do a lot of consulting; a few decades ago I became "The SQL guy" and stopped being the Fortran/algol/C/Pascal programmers (type cast as Johnny One-Note --m nthe danger of writing hundreds of SQL magazine columns and a few books). I was on a project where I was the leader and the data base guy. When I had done my part, I turned to a team member >20 years my junior and told my team that “Jesse was our War Chief” for the rest of the project.

          This was his first leadership role. I still did the crappy paperwork so upper management would happy. But he gave the orders on app side of the project. It freaked him to have a man his father’s age taking orders from him. The rest of the team about seeing me give up power. But we all adjusted in 1-2 weeks.

          When it was time to get me off the project, I had gotten management to put him in charge. He asked (1) how do I do an exit interview with a consultant? (2) if I would like a recommendation.

        • #3274569

          Loved your book, Joe

          by pogidaga ·

          In reply to Yes and no

          SQL For Smarties. I keep it on my desk at work.

        • #3218473

          Known unknowns

          by erik hanson ·

          In reply to Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments

          Didn’t George Bush give a speech about this, where he tried to explain the difference between “known unknowns” (where a person knows they lack knowledge in an area)and “unknown unknowns” (things that a person doesn’t realize they don’t know)?

          Or perhaps that’s too much credit.

        • #3218232

          I like it :D

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments

          too stupid to know they were dumb.

        • #3217199

          Conscious/Unconscious Competence/Incompetence

          by wireless ·

          In reply to Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments

          The self-assessment article was bang-on. Having originally a Psych degree, then moving to I.T. and Training, the article (and the Bush reference someone else mentioned) reminded me of a 4 level learning scale, describing the various stages through which we learn:


          1/ Unconsciously Incompetent: ‘Ignorance on Fire’ : I don’t know what I don’t know
          (most people start here when placed into new environment)

          2/ Consciously Incompetent: eg. – Learning to Drive – ‘I know what I don’t know’
          (after understanding all the facets of the problem)

          3/ Consciously Competent: ‘I know what I know’
          (after understanding much of the problem and starting to work on solutions)

          4/ Unconsciously Competent: ‘I don’t know what I know’
          (the confident sales person/manager/senior executive – doesn’t know or care why he/she is successful type, but just does it)

    • #3218742

      Open source wiz kids!

      by sentdata ·

      In reply to Arrogant lil workers

      How about the open source expert that is learning open source on your time but claming to know it all! And getting top dollar to do it. But they can get away with it because it?s so new no one can dispute what they say till the crap they put out does not work!

      • #3217007

        And don’t forget…

        by tony k ·

        In reply to Open source wiz kids!

        ..not spending any time learning how to administer Windows boxes because they’re too good for that. Then they wonder why they can’t find a job and just assume that MS is pushing their products on people.

        Here’s a clue to the opensourcers: we’ve tried it, we’re not impressed.

        • #3216874

          Because alternative OS’s don’t suit your needs

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to And don’t forget…

          Doesn’t meant that is true industry wide, it just means that in your particular case they didn’t suit your needs.

          I can take you to other places where Windows are great on the desktop for the non production side of things but would mean death to the company if required to be installed onto everything that they are running.

          Windows Server products are very limited in Scalability and for that reason only suit small server’s and maybe even a smallish cluster but the moment that you start looking at the more robust blades and high end servers Windows doesn’t stand a chance because it’s just not scalable enough for these machines. Currently the Server Applications from MS will run 4 CPU’s fairly well or 1 Dual Core with HTT but the moment you start to move beyond that very limited point things start to get very expensive and nasty if you are trying to maintain Windows. Try to imagine for a minute the costs involved in licensing 2003 ES on a 2,000 CPU Blade that you are leasing by the CPU.

          The costs of the MS license would make the cost of the hardware pale into insignificance. So because you don’t use something like this doesn’t mean that other OS’s are no good it just means that they don’t suit your needs and knowledge set. [b]Nothing More & Nothing Less.[/b]


        • #3219171

          Someone sprinkle some crack on your wheaties?

          by tony k ·

          In reply to Because alternative OS’s don’t suit your needs

          First of all, the Unix world is your bane if you want to talk licensing per CPU. MS licenses by the socket, not core. Most Unices license by the core, virtual or otherwise. Yes, no licensing costs for Linux.

          Secondly, Windows on the desktop for non-production? Huh, and here I never knew those 13,000 desktops we have were for testing only.

          Finally, I better let my boss know that those 8, 16 and 32-way servers we have running Windows 2003 Server are going to crash soon. I’ll let him know that just because they haven’t ever shouldn’t be taken as an indicator, I guess. Some unix guy told me they will, so they must be ready to fail ’cause if it’s one thing a Unix guy knows…it’s modern technology.


          Perhaps you should reread the original post that started this thread?

        • #3218927

          Actually I prefer Silicon Chips to munch on

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Someone sprinkle some crack on your wheaties?

          They are much more crackly and I can eat them all day. :p

          [i]First of all, the Unix world is your bane if you want to talk licensing per CPU. MS licenses by the socket, not core. Most Unices license by the core, virtual or otherwise. Yes, no licensing costs for Linux.[/i]

          Yes I agree I wouldn’t consider Unix either now but there are plenty of products out there which don’t cost an arm and a Leg to use on a medium blade. Currently I support one place that does CG work for the movies and there isn’t one Windows install in the entire work environment. Those Boxes and that part of the LAN is left to the non production side of the business who are virtually hangers on to the ones who bring in the money.

          [i]Secondly, Windows on the desktop for non-production? Huh, and here I never knew those 13,000 desktops we have were for testing only.[/i]

          Granted I’m not quite sure of what you mean here but if you are referring to glorified Data Entry desktops then they really are not production boxes they are Data Entry Points that then allow some other people to work off the data entered I suppose it depends on the business involved but places like Insurance companies and Banks only involve Data Entry and no real production work. So maybe we are looking at things from different areas.

          [i]Finally, I better let my boss know that those 8, 16 and 32-way servers we have running Windows 2003 Server are going to crash soon.[/i]

          No small clusters like that will work OK even if there are some large licensing costs involved. Perhaps you would like to point out exactly where I said that they wouldn’t work? What I did say was that a medium 2,000 CPU setup wouldn’t be at all happy with 2003 and I never compared one of these units to the small units that you appear to be using. If MS makes you happy you’re welcome to use it for your needs I just pointed out that it doesn’t suit every need just because it suits your needs. Just like I didn’t say that Unix or Linux or BSD was the answer to everything you have to use the right tool for the job in hand and the skill set of those maintaining them.

          Unfortunately you where the one who was insisting that Linux/Unix was no good because it didn’t suit your needs therefore MS was by definition the better product.

          It may be in your case but you can not them transpose that finding over to everything else in the IT Industry just because 1 option suits your Needs & Skill Set can not imply that it will suit everyone else’s needs & skill set. What you think of as Big & expensive others may think of as small and nothing more than a toy and until you have worked in different areas of IT you can not make a blanket statement like the one that you originally made.

          So M$ suits your needs [b]GREAT![/b] Just don’t try to push your solution onto others who can not be supported by the same offerings.


        • #3289278

          Col, et al.

          by x-marcap ·

          In reply to Because alternative OS’s don’t suit your needs

          Some windows people have never worked with a real system or were so overwhelmed they think other people would be overwhelmed also.

          Do you remember the first time you tried to explain JCL to a newbie? I almost ripped my hair out… Many of these people have no enterprise knowledge, nor would they be successful in that environment…


        • #3224531

          Actually I still remember the first time I saw some code for a Commodore

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Col, et al.

          It was written in Basic and scared the living daylights out of me. It almost looked like English. 😀

          Coming from Pascal, Fortran and Boolean to look at that was a real shock to the system. :^0


      • #3217570

        Open Software – World Wide nightmare

        by maeseralf ·

        In reply to Open source wiz kids!

        The problem with Open Software is their speed of change. It is not bad (but don’t think it is cheap, as it is Open), and it remembers me the old times with the CP/M. But just when you think you are up-to-date, another version is coming to your bed. It is like a bad marriage.
        I like Firefox brouser, it is fine and plenty of features; and it is free. But when it starts, every two or three days, it announces me with the “New Version available” flag. Normally I accept, but it means you get a new item to know almost twice a week. Impossible to get updated on everything you must know in the O.S.I. realms to be a “guru” of it. Not for one person only knowledge.

        • #3217563

          Pardon me but wasn’t that M$ catch cry all that time ago?

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Open Software – World Wide nightmare

          We are [b]Lean & Mean[/b] and can switch track at the drop of a pin to meet the changing demands of new technology.

          Now they are the giant that takes years to start to address changes in technology and can only come out with a new system when the next new technology is already in the pipeline.

          Open Source can combat this situation much faster and better so they currently have completely working 64 Bit Software solutions. M$ on the other hand are still pushing 32 Bit software and saying that 64 Bit Software is a pipe dream at the moment though to be fair their new Exchange will be a 64 Bit application to run on Server 2003 64 but I’m just not sure how many drivers they will have available for that system when it’s launched.

          Windows 95 was the first 32 Bit software system that M$ had and now M$ is touting the release of Vista & Office 2007 as the next big thing that is comparable to the release of 95. But they are still pushing the 32 Bit version and the 64 Bit version will become useful latter. Well at least that is what they said last night at the pre Product Launch for System builders.

          Intel announced a few weeks ago that they where currently developing the Quad Core CPU’s that will have the ability to run 128 Bit software. Now I really don’t attempt to be mean here but what software dose M$ currently or in the near future have available that will be able to use the full benefits of the currently available hardware something like a Dual Core with HTT? Both Intel & AMD have these CPU’s now and they have been around for a while in computer terms but the major Desktop supplier of software doesn’t have any software to run reliably or usefully on these. So what am I missing here?


        • #3218101


          by tony k ·

          In reply to Pardon me but wasn’t that M$ catch cry all that time ago?

          Since when is Open Source software “lean & mean”? Oh, that’s right, when you remove all the functionality. You want an OS that’s fast, fast, fast, you can have it with Linux…if you disable KDE & Gnome and everything else that makes up a modern OS. Strip it down to a console and it SCREAMS. Doesn’t do much, but it SCREAMS.

          (And, to qualify from your other reply to mine: great, you can run your OS on a 2000 CPU box. Fantastic, that’s the kind of thing that’s going to be common. MS writes their software to account for the needs of 90% of people and businesses. You’re doing something outside that range, you’re on your own.)

          64-bit!! 64-bit!! 64-bit!! I’m glad you’re so hell-bent on 64-bit!! I have few machines that I need to have a 64-bit OS. The performance gains are minimal, it’s main purpose is to provide more memory and I don’t have much need for more than 4G. So, rants about the beauty and necessity of 64-bit!! fall on deaf ears.

          Oh, and BTW, so they shouldn’t offer a 32-bit version of Office? Force everyone to go 64-bit!! immediately? Buy a new machine just for the new office suite? You do realize that their OS is on millions and millions of computers, so they can’t just jump light years into the future, right? Open source has a little advantage there because the population is a fraction of a percentage and it’s all computer dorks running it.

          When will MS release 128-bit!!!! capable software? Easy answer: when it’s needed. Software isn’t about running on the latest and greatest hardware, it’s about filling a need for endusers. What you’re missing is reality.

        • #3217865

          Well in that case Tony Please Explain why

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Please

          M$ new version of Exchange is a 64 Bit version? As you don’t see the need for 64 Bit applications or software it’s a waste of time and effort right?

          I’m assuming that you will not want to use this so you have more and bigger mail boxes available to you than the previous 32 it version could supply right?

          The point is that 64 Bit CPU are now the Norm and not the exception so why are we paying for something and then using less than 100% of it’s capability? It’s like buying a F1 motor and then disconnecting half the Spark Plug Leads because we don’t need the power produced by the thing.

          MS was the first to 32 Bit with the release of Windows 95 and now that they have grown so big they are now unable to master what they where capable of doing a decade ago.

          Incidentally at the M$ Vista & Office Pre Release Launch the night before last here they where insisting that when Vista & office 2007 are released that it will be bigger than 95. Besides a lot of OEM builders getting reported for supplying Pirate Software at M$ behest I personally can not see that people will be camping out in front of stores waiting to be one of the first to get a copy of Vista. Do you?

          I think that maybe you should pay a visit to some of the trade shows and look at what is available. Drop into the IBM stand and look at their Medium Blades why not break the bank and look at one of their big Blades where you can wet yourself with reality. These are in common use [b]NOW![/b] they are not something that is going to come some time latter when You and M$ think that they are needed they are here now and in use now. Why do you think that M$ and SUSE have got together if it wasn’t in M$ best interests they would never have accepted Novels offer.

          OH also BTW M$ is insisting that with Vista & Office 2007 that they should only be supplied on new computers that exceed the minimum Vista Requirements. If I want to I can start selling these computers Now with XP and 2003 Office and sign up every customer to receive a copy of Vista and Office 2007 when they are released. But personally I’m not interested as I only service Small to Medium Business not Domestic Computer Users and when I sell them something I don’t expect them to have to shell out for something more a few months latter to make it work even if it’s only Postage & Handling of the new product I just don’t see why I should be pushing that type of information onto M$ so that they can bypass me completely and strike up their own deals with [b]My Customers![/b] M$ instructions to Thor OEM System Builders is that Vista & Office 2007 are a great way to generate profits by selling new hardware to run these new products on. The pity is that we will be supplying hardware that is so far in excess of the needs of these programs that they are not being used to anywhere near their capacity and our customers are wasting their money.

          As far as your description of a CLI Open Source Product Goes yes you’re right it will fly along and with the necessary programs installed it will leave the existing M$ offerings groveling in the dirt where they currently belong. I’ve seen a general Dumbing Down of every IT related profession since Windows 95 was released and the trend is continuing and it’s people like you who wonder why their jobs get [b]Out Sourced[/b] it’s because IT is no longer offering the service to Business that it once did by increasing productivity with a reduction in costs. To achieve that cost reduction now the only alternative left to most companies is to Out Source their IT Section as they are actually the ones costing the companies the money now. When I started working with computers a small installation cost 20 Million $ and that could pay for itself in under a year now a normal office installation is several thousand $ and the cost of the Support is much higher so why do the companies still need their own IT Staff which are costing them more than the hardware that they are now looking after? Think on that my friend as that’s how it is today.

          If anyone needs a Lesson in [b]Reality[/b] it you my friend not me as I see these things every day and don’t dream about what could be I know what is available [b]NOW![/b] Which is much more that you appear to be able to say. 😀


        • #3225933

          Exchange 64-bit

          by tony k ·

          In reply to Well in that case Tony Please Explain why

          Sorry, I should’ve made my self clear…you were talking desktop OSes and software as was I. Of course there’s a need in the server environment, if only to add more ram to run bigger and better applications. That being said, my organization which has 13k users has one 64-bit server and it’s one I built as a test base to ensure drivers, etc were available. See, we have a team of Windows Engineers who know what they’re doing, so we don’t have to go run scrambling for the newest hardware just because it’s out. We can provide more value to our company because, unlike the dwindling Unix guys, we’ll stand them up a better environment for less money, in less time and with a fraction of a fraction of the problems they have on their side.

          That being said, no, even with a couple of petabytes of mail, we’re fine with 32-bit, thanks.

          Finally, of course the CLI server stuff is faster, it doesn’t do as much. I agree, the industry has dumbed down signficantly because it used to be filled with old-time Unix guys who couldn’t keep up with the changing times. Windows came along, they had no idea how complex it was and screwed it all up. Then, in true adult fashion: blamed the OS manufacturer. “It’s insecure!”, they’d scream. Uh, did you bother securing it? “You can’t!” Uh-huh. Here’s your last check, thanks for playing.

        • #3225886

          Not win95!

          by maeseralf ·

          In reply to Well in that case Tony Please Explain why

          Hi, HAL9000!
          I agree with you almost every time, but you have an error here, Win95 was not the first 32b, UNIX was written for Mini-computers, years before a GUI were available to desktops. And you must know.
          Other thing is I believe all these MS friends don’t know about SUN blades, or large computing structures. Hey, guys! There is too much more on IT than fulfilling rosters or sending e-mail…
          I remember the 70s, when the basics for Mini/Micro computing were built!

        • #3225810

          Yes I should have placed a Caveat on the above

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Not win95!

          But what I actually meant was that Windows 95 was M$ first step into 32 Bit computing and it was a fairly seamless transition from the previous 16 Bit that they had been using.

          M$ has never lead the field they have always been followers and not very good ones at that but since so many people are using that particular product some seem to think that they invented computers.


        • #3226211

          Hi, Mr 2001 (HAL 9000) I am with you

          by maeseralf ·

          In reply to Not win95!

          I can’t reply in the same trend, so I need to go just below. I’ve re-read your post, and You are right. Mine fault! I didn’t do what I ask for others: to read twice.
          Well, never minds, it was a good opportunity to the statement, and to teach M$ people there was a computing arena too much time before IBM/Intel/Microsoft.
          About the richie M$, the only thing he did for the first time was the BASIC interpreter and the DOS for Apple. Since them he only buys the things other made, and proved they work. I remember the times when Word was a tiny application far beyond of Wordperfect and Lotus Write. But every tool you find in the new versions of OFFicce, was two or three versions before in Wordperfect or Norton or Lotus products. Do you remember the Norton SpeedDisk? The M$ buys the tool and embeed it in their portfolio as M$ products. As IBM did old times. In fact they are sons of the Big-Blue Marketing.
          Now the market believes Visio, or C compilers, or Grammatic are M$ patented inventions. Just the money do the truth.
          BTW: OS2 was the first 32 bit oriented product, than M$ got their hands on. They withdraw from the dare, just a few before IBM begun its falling. But, Guys, many time before Windows, DR had their Gem GUI.

        • #3226061

          Dave is that you?

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Not win95!

          I can not see you on my internal sensors where are you?

          Col ]:)

        • #3226050

          Geeez Col…

          by dawgit ·

          In reply to Not win95!

          Don’t scare me like that. ?:| WHen were you here? I just saw your post in my e-mail box, “Dave is that….” Made me do a double take. I’m getting too damn old for supprises Col. PM me if you don’t know what I’m rambling on about. (I’ll answer tomorrow) -d

        • #3225967

          Hey! Hal, wanna you sing that song to me?

          by maeseralf ·

          In reply to Not win95!

          I see you understood the joke! What marvelous old times, when believing in AI computers the size of a room was easy! But, today there is no PanAm airplanes, we are not in the moon base, and IBM stopped the series by the 3090. And we are on 2006!
          Reagards, colleague.

        • #3223733

          OH I remember the good old 3090. :D

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Not win95!

          I used to work on those things and sold quite a lot of them as well before I parted ways from IBM for repairing their Mainframes properly. 🙂

          Now where’s that external Pod I know that I had one left to send you flying out into space with your crushed and dead in it’s claws. Now where did I leave it parked so it couldn’t be used against me? :^0

          OH you forgot [b]I Am The Space Ship Discovery I’m not confined to just a room I am the entire ship!.[/b] :p

          Col ]:)

        • #3223635

          You two…

          by dawgit ·

          In reply to Not win95!

          Both reminded me of a little back(black) water speck in Mississippi. Of course, it’s not so little any more, but those were the days. Pan-Am, room sized (the small ones) computers, a space program. Ah, yea, those were the days. Thanks you two. 😉 -d

        • #3225888

          64b for memory?

          by maeseralf ·

          In reply to Please

          Since when the data bus wide means more memory in the system? Do you know something about architecture? 64 bit architecture is the first step that here done in computing. Do you remember those funny MainFrames from IBM? COBOL needs 64b to be useful. Of course COBOL may be dead (I’m not so sure), but if you consider scientific computing, or real AI applications, they will work better on 64b.
          Never minds! I agree with HAL9000 (do you know what that nick means?) If the hardware is upgraded to go 4 cores, and a computer’s life cycle now is no more than 4 years, why MS is again going to a 32b system, which needs the most current hardware for the interface? It is only because Vista is now around five years delayed.
          In the old 80/90, INTEL, MS and IBM were together in the same effort. But the same old story, MS and Intel are on the IBM lessons, and fighting to cope the market arena, not to serve the user.

        • #3225714

          How about NOW.!.

          by dawgit ·

          In reply to Please

          If someone were to drive into town right now with a truck load of a thousand 128 bit computers, with a 128 bit OS, it would be sold out in under 15 minutes. Gauranteed.
          Who would use it? Is there a need? Is it necessary? Is it going to happen?
          Yes.!. and if I had one right now, I would be useing it. NOW.!.

        • #3226210


          by maeseralf ·

          In reply to How about NOW.!.

          Just they only need a tour by the EuskalParty gallery over here, in the gallery section. Games are the most resorce demanding stuff in computing. Gamers ask for the last of the last, and they ever need more power to get satisfied. I remember the Flight simulator for the F-18, it was built around a Sel Gould 770, with 1 MiB RAM, and two Winchester totalling the hugh ammount of 10 MiB. And I mind a real simulator, with a cluster of ten 68032 subprocessors.

        • #3226047


          by dawgit ·

          In reply to Bravo!

          just wait untill you see the package for the Euro-Fighter. Some really Super Stuff. A 128 bit processor is NOT enough. (and memory? better not ask)

        • #3225975

          Hi, Dawgit!

          by maeseralf ·

          In reply to Bravo!

          How many bits your bus is? (LOL)
          I think you are talking about the “gamming” simulator. I’m familiar with the EF 2000 fighter, because I had some work on it. The plane needs four computers just for navigation. The total ammount is of 24. The control law for the FbW system tooks 5 years of work from a team of 20 engineers, when designing. The aircraft itself is unstable, what means more fighting power, but no human pilot could drive alone the machine. The operational simulator is not available yet.
          It doesn’t surprise me if the public version requires a FireBlade from Sun.

        • #3223628

          Oh, My poor little 2 bit Bus…

          by dawgit ·

          In reply to Bravo!

          You had me laughing on that.
          …and 5 for the controls. Your right, with out the computers, a man can not fly that aircraft, and live. The aircraft’s ability to manuever would kill a person. On that note I realy don’t see a sim version comming from M$ for that plane. B-) (at least not in my life time) One negative point though, it gets really krapy gas milage. 😀

        • #3216386

          Hi, Dawgit!

          by maeseralf ·

          In reply to Bravo!

          Don’t be afraid! It will not empty the wells. Just less than the the F-4, and too much less than MIG-25. They are new tech turbo-fan props.
          But you are right with M$. Their flight simulator is just a Visual System. But they have no info about cockpit yet.
          Do you remember F-104?

        • #3216378

          I remember

          by dawgit ·

          In reply to Bravo!

          Hi back, Yes I remember them, and F-105’s as well. Though 104’s were in use in Europe for a long time (In Germany) unfortunatly I was on the the other side of the Earth Ball, most of the life of those. I did get to see a lot of F-4’s working out, as well as those A-6’s also. Shame that they didn’t let me play with them. (In fact they used to get real nervous any time I was around one. -No sense of humour)

        • #3225885

          Je pardonne vu!

          by maeseralf ·

          In reply to Pardon me but wasn’t that M$ catch cry all that time ago?

          But I don’t mean OSI is wrong!
          I only reply why the “Open guys” are all the time on learning things that veterans don’t understand. Also, “caveat entor”, keep the business people out of your mind, because they make the technology from dictionaries. If you hear an ad (about everything) in the media, a Novel price seems to be a dummy, but if you test what they say… Well, you should can light a whole city with a single candle; that is all the science they know!

        • #3225808

          But I’ve seen it proved scientifically :D

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Je pardonne vu!

          That you can deflect an 8 inch Howitzer shell with a bit of tissue paper. :^0

          Provided I’m not th one holding the tissue paper I’ll gladly look on to see what happens and then listen to the explanations of [b]What went Wrong[/b] :p

          Col ]:)

        • #3225704

          …Sure can…

          by dawgit ·

          In reply to Je pardonne vu!

          Oh course you can ‘Lite-up’ a whole block with a candle. I’ve even seen it done. You just have to place the candle in just right spot under the right [….censered….] and you will lite it up. Of course it won’t last too long, and the block will be gone, but it can be done. 😀

        • #3226208

          I see you’ve got the joke

          by maeseralf ·

          In reply to …Sure can…

          But I fear not the meaning. I was speaking about energy levels. But you have placed a new point of view. They can flame the world around a new stone-wheel, and every people will be dazzled with it being the most advanced invention. Just so the power of marketing and media is.

    • #3218725

      Wouldn’t Worry Too Much

      by johnny bee ·

      In reply to Arrogant lil workers

      You remember the brown-noser, nerd, brainer, or whatever from high school. The same applies to the new generation of IT Geeks. Only a handful of them will realize that their arrogance is actually holding them back and make a genuine effort to learn something, either about themselves or about how to provide service to others. The majority of them will fade from view or into mediocrity and not advance very far simply because they do not know what they think they know. We machine-loving IT folks need to remember that our customers are the human users, not the computers they use. You can treat a machine as if it is stupid, and it won’t even blink at you. Treat a human in the same manner, you’ll quickly find yourself looking for new employment.

      • #3218478

        Worry a little

        by nicknielsen ·

        In reply to Wouldn’t Worry Too Much

        [i]The majority of them will fade from view or into mediocrity and not advance very far simply because they do not know what they think they know.[/i]

        Very true. The best part is, this mediocrity is usually as a salesperson at Best Buy or Circuit City; around here, their customers usually only go back once for tech support before looking for a real technician. Gotta love job security.

    • #3218683

      Baz Luhrmann anyone?

      by erik hanson ·

      In reply to Arrogant lil workers

      “Accept certain inalienable truths:
      prices will rise,
      politicians will philander,
      you too will get old,
      and when you do you?ll fantasize
      that when you were young
      prices were reasonable,
      politicians were noble
      and children respected their elders.”

    • #3218642

      Arrogant lil… co-workers need a smack down

      by david_palmer ·

      In reply to Arrogant lil workers

      I’d agree with you that a number of people who work at a help desk view the job as little more than a McDonalds-type entry level job for a larger organization. Any arrogance you get from someone like this needs to be brought to the attention of the manager of the help desk, because that kind of attitude shouldn’t be tolerated. I’ve been working as a help desk analyst for (mucn longer than I’d like to admit) several years, and the technical knowledge that the callers have runs the gammut. But regardless of the caller’s technical knowledge, they are the reason that I have a job, and should never be treated disrespectfully.

      To be a good help desk analyst, you need to be part technician, part teacher, and part counselor. People tend to be honestly greatful when they know that they have been helped with a problem. It doesn’t matter how “small” the help desk person thinks the problem was. The mark of a really good help desk analyst is someone who can tell a customer that the problem they were experiencing was completely their fault, without making them feel like they have just been insulted.

      • #3274472

        Three Dead Trolls, anyone?

        by media-ted9 ·

        In reply to Arrogant lil… co-workers need a smack down

        How many of you have not seen the video “Internet Help Desk”, by Three Dead Trolls In A Baggie???

        Google it and you’ll need to change your underwear!

    • #3218637

      True enough…

      by ibanezoo ·

      In reply to Arrogant lil workers

      … but in my experience they either learn quickly how much they don’t know or they don’t remain employed very long. Either way its not so bad. Usually after their first major screw up that costs the company money or pisses of a really big and intimidating employee they change their tune. They learn home computers/network != corporate computers/network.

      If nothing else, they are good for a laugh.

    • #3218597

      Desktop Support Changing

      by jerome.koch ·

      In reply to Arrogant lil workers

      Let’s face it. Things have gotten much easier since 1995. PC Hardware (Engineered Commodities), Disk Cloning Software(can easily automate imaging), and centralized management software (ie Altiris) is rapidly making the desktop support position a low end, low pay, entry level job. It’s not even worth considering for 4 year graduates of college. I know, some larger firms still require MCSAs or MS helpdesk certs. But the job itself can be taught to anyone who has even just a little interest in PCs, Networks, and OS.

      The younger people who staff these jobs are easily replaced if they don’t toe the line. Rarely do large IT Depts even consider mentoring Desktop people for more complex positions (which is a shame). It’s also a shame that many of these people forked over big bucks to get training just to qualify for a low level PC gopher.

      • #3218472

        Support changing – people same

        by manitobamike ·

        In reply to Desktop Support Changing

        I find the largest number of calls I get in our company involve “never mind”. ie: numloc off/on, O instead of 0 (letter instead of number), dragging taskbar to side or top, and my favorite “can’t type anything” with error message popup box on screen.
        You only need patience to deal with these calls not much for knowledge. 🙂

      • #3218252

        Not So Sure

        by dogknees ·

        In reply to Desktop Support Changing

        I think there is still a need for broad skills and knowledge on a Helpdesk. A lot of the time, you’ve really got to listen to what the person is saying, and the sounds in the background to pickup the real problem. You also need to know your users idiosyncracies to be able to realise what they mean vs what they say.

        I often hear a user double-clicking and know they should only be single clicking for example.

        I guess it also depends on what your expectation of a call to a helpdesk is. To me, you should be able to solve 90% or so on the phone as part of the first call. That’s the way we’ve been doing it for the last 15 years or so where I work.

        I’m a programmer mainly, but still do helpdesk stuff. You really need deep and broad knowledge of everything from hardware to OS, to applications, to human nature to solve problems up front, and I don’t see the new tools changing that a lot.

    • #3218339

      I feel your pain

      by tachyon ·

      In reply to Arrogant lil workers

      It seems like these days, any moron that can turn on their own computer and browse MySPace is a “Computer Expert”.

      They don’t listen, they do what they want, and they undo what you do for them, and then blame you when it all stops working.

      Even worse are people with an MCSE. Who think that being stupid and or dishonest enough to pay money for letters after their title can replace years of real experience and knowledge. Even worse, the waste of corporate funds that is the HR dept. falls for this BS.

      I know, it’s very frustrating. All I can tell you is have good hobbies to help you relax.

    • #3218244

      Someone woke up on the wrong side of the help desk

      by jack-m ·

      In reply to Arrogant lil workers

      Get used to it. Since “point and click” first appeared a help desk person has to know little more than where the reset button is.

      • #3217330

        Reset and a whole lot more….

        by billmlod ·

        In reply to Someone woke up on the wrong side of the help desk

        I have been in tech support for over 20 years and if all you can do is tell them to hit reset then we know where the problem is..I have to learn software, how it works, how to help them connect to the network, work on hardware (can you change a hard drive or diagnose bad memory??) and a lot more. Sometimes it just means showing up at their desk & watching them do something right the first time, it’s called morale support – something todays new techs need to learn.

    • #3218239

      Problem is partly the employers fault …

      by derek_mobile ·

      In reply to Arrogant lil workers

      I agree with you entirely. I believe the problem is with the employers who take on people who have not even finished college and pay them the minimum wage. In turn they gain enough knowlegde to fool the management into thinking they are reasonably competent and soon the management are looking at the experienced I.T. / I.S. staff and asking why they are getting paid so much. The main problem with this senario is that it discourages professionials from taking up IT as a career if they are going to get qualifications and get paid the same as a student.
      Would you hire an unqualified student to perform critical functions your finance department ?

    • #3218228


      by mr. hardware ·

      In reply to Arrogant lil workers

      Family member (yeah the stuff we work on the most) needed a little umph on his box. So went to a COMPUSA in his area, to see what kind of RAID cards they had. Sellsperson told me I’d have to wait in line and talk to the service tech. Sigh, wait about 5 min, ask the tech (the one who fixes machines). His reply; “What’s a RAID card?”

      • #3218192

        Doesn’t Rabid Animal Internal Destruction

        by hal 9000 ·

        In reply to I GOT YOU ALL BEAT

        Belong well away from IT? 😀

        The service Tech was quite right in not knowing what a RAID Card actually was. I bet he tried to sell you a SCSI Card when you told him what a RAID Card actually was right? :^0

        OH for the good old days where these [b]Professional Techs[/b] saved all the data off a clients computer and sold it to his competition while at the same time claiming that it had been destroyed. Their only aim is to make as much money with as little as possible work.


    • #3218200

      Computer Experts

      by mbisciotti ·

      In reply to Arrogant lil workers

      I agree I think these younger people think they know everything about computers. They only know how to all the corny sites and play video games. Working help desk is a skill that takes a while to get good at. The key is having strong troubleshooting skills and really listening to what the problem is. When younger people run into a problem they want to restore or nuke the machine.

      • #3274470

        … And why not???

        by media-ted9 ·

        In reply to Computer Experts

        I have been working on these ferschlinger things since around the time of the Radio Shack 2k “monster”s. I had clients with KayPro, HP, IBM System 32, Trash-80, Commodore, Compac, Acer/Leading Edge and countless others.

        I say, “nuke ’em” (the machines – all of ’em). It’s quick, it’s simple, and, … if you’re careful, it doesn’t threaten the customer half as much as a halon dump when they start smoking, or, … God forbid, a WGA issues a false positive to the fire-control system.

        Then we can get back to the daze when kids carried our groceries to our cars for us.

        Now that felt gud.

    • #3218198


      by mbisciotti ·

      In reply to Arrogant lil workers

      Working a help desk takes strong troubleshooting and listening skills. Most young people dont have. Theyre to worried about the next video game or corny website that comes out.

    • #3218193

      A tangle of replies for the fly

      by fred123456 ·

      In reply to Arrogant lil workers

      Man you opened up a can of worms.
      Four of my twenty years of experience is in the Tech teaching role. In that role I have taught students ranging in ages from 18 to 65 and I have seen a lot of arrogance, but it is inevitable.

      The youth of today(15-25) are the true computer literate. They live, breath, and work on/in technology. Even if they are not employed in the technology field they know more than the average 30 something.

      Remember how arrogant you were when you were 15 or so. You knew it all and just wanted more of everything. Now take a subject like technology where you (the 15 or so) realize that you know more than the average Joe. The sad part is, my son is 4 and he is more computer literate at 4 than I was at 13, 26 years ago.

      Instant arrogance..

      During the 80’s and 90s, the IT community had shaped itself to rely on certs as the tell tale sign of knowledge, which had a major flaw. The sharing of questions and answers in the form of web page brain dumps. Not to mention the average Joe who crams for a test and passes with flying colors but doesn’t absorb a thing.
      Help Desk is the biggest IT industry problem because a large majority of organizations, private and public, consider help desk as menial. Helpdesk is the front line of you organization and needs to be trained and treated the same way as the sales force / marketing teams.

      Nothing replaces experience.

      So until the industry starts relying more on experience and expertise, we will inevitably be portrayed as Jimmy Falon’s “Computer Guy” from Saturday Night Live.

      • #3217258

        Literate? Not the word I’d choose….

        by tachyon ·

        In reply to A tangle of replies for the fly

        >The youth of today(15-25) are the true computer literate. They live, breath, and work on/in technology. Even if they are not employed in the technology field they know more than the average 30 something.

        I have to disagree with you here. Though you have hit on the meat of the problem.
        These 15-25’s are not at all computer literate. They are application literate. They know how to install 101 useless timewasting programs. They know how to make a cybernetic abortion of a website on MySpace. They can IM with one hand while text messaging with the other. They are expert _users_ BUT they know nothing about the underlying technology and how it works. And frankly, schools are partly to blame. I see a LOT of courses that teach nothing in the way of concepts but rather focus on teaching products. This is a great dis-service to the students and their future employers. It’s completely backwards/upside down to the way it should be. IF students were taught concepts, then they could easily figure out new applications on their own. But students taught applications become dumbfounded when applications change.
        The “certification” courses are even worse, mostly being composed of rambling nonsense mixed in with a lots of rote memorization of application usage.
        For example, courses should be titled something like “Word processing concepts and applications” not “Using Microsoft Word”.

        • #3217230

          We don’t create critical thinkers

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Literate? Not the word I’d choose….

          We create drones in education now. Higher education still focuses on the meat, but K-12 is lost. If we don’t teach students that you can’t solve every problem with a computer, perhaps they’d understand the limitations. If we’d explain soft computing to students early, maybe they’d see something more to their cruise control…

          I think the major problem is that the teachers that love to teach and do it becaus they love it aren’t rewarded. So the crapbags that hang on, and drag everyone aroudn them down, are treated EXACTLY the same as the excellent teachers. So what happens? The excellent tearchers leave and you’re left with the waterballoons that have no idea wtf is going on.
          Of course the whole certification market has really borked things up. It’s marketing speak and little in the way of real knowledge. With questions like
          “XP is the most secure operating system ever! True or False”

          No wonder certs are circling the toilet.

        • #3217560

          Thats the key

          by maeseralf ·

          In reply to We don’t create critical thinkers

          You’ve said it. Modern world is pure marketing and triviality matter. As an example on how the things are going, I teach guys that haven’t finished the primary school to get a job as low tech fellas. I try to learn they how to be a proficient electrician. Instead of learning the foundations of electricity, they go straight to ask “how I place the wires in the wall?” How I do a trench?”
          The actual success of Microsoft is written in the Apocalypse; to get all the world thinking that we can’t live without Windows and Office. And I have to see how people is using Excell to write a single table of text, and ask to learn Access, when they only know single arithmethic, to compose form sheets for an application, or a resume.
          Meanwhile, you can see misspelling in word documents from them.
          They think all is possible, just because they can imagine! Sound this familiar, as being readed in classic literature?

        • #3139358

          Yes, you’re right. There’s a much larger problem…

          by tachyon ·

          In reply to We don’t create critical thinkers

          The more I watch and participate in the education system, the more I fear for the future. I can’t help but notice that the conspiracy folks are onto something with regards to education.
          Students from K-12 are not being taught to think for themselves. They aren’t taught concepts and creative thinking. They are taught to memorize, to believe what they are told without questioning it, and they aren’t encouraged to self teach and learn outside school.

          It’s sad and frightening.

        • #3139295

          The same thing was happening

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Yes, you’re right. There’s a much larger problem…

          When I was at Uni doing my Post Grad Work or even the Under Grad work they taught you to think in small ever decreasing tunnels and woe betide anyone who thought outside of those Tunnels that where being taught.

          By doing this even in the Post Grad Stage it allowed more people through the system at little inconvenience to the system and that was well over 30 years ago now. I can only see them refining the system further as it makes teaching easier. Even doing a Ph.D is easier for those grading the student as they don’t have to actually think outside the Square as that would require some effort on the part of the grading Professors.

          The entire school system is now shot to hell and isn’t worth the paper that it produces as so called trained students. Most are illiterate when they now leave school and if anything it’s getting worse.


        • #3202436

          You’re free to think

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to The same thing was happening

          As long as you don’t do it in school!

        • #3202444

          Critical thinkers are not formed or created by anybody but ourselves.

          by absolutely ·

          In reply to We don’t create critical thinkers

          The belief that those who have the ability to think achieved that ability by conditioning and not by personal virtue is also partly responsible for the same problem. The common approach to “education” is to assume that [b]the entire pedagogical approach can be adjusted to the false belief[/b] that different learning [b]abilities[/b] can be treated as different learning “styles” without compromise to the value of the system. Lazy people will not become industrious via any euphemisms that may ever be invented for the word “lazy”. Stupid people will be just as stupid, no matter how politely you choose synonyms for the word “stupid”.

        • #3274468

          Heartily agree, plus …

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to Literate? Not the word I’d choose….

          In my line of work currently, we see that students can’t read or write properly (not “barely”, but can’t). We get their pages for yearbooks and it’s bedlam. Publishers are trying everything they can think of to distance their services from the students – like employing PDF, in order to make the schools more responsible for their own slip-shod work.
          These kids have been fed on entertainment, not education; then propped up with “you can do anything you want, be anything you want” while the tests are being further skewed downward to reflect that scores are improving.

          It’s a mess, so IT’s a mess.

        • #3225884

          I see it is the same the world over

          by maeseralf ·

          In reply to Heartily agree, plus …

          You seem to be writing from Spain. It is the legacy of the 68. Imagination to the power! And the people going the walk back to the MidleAge. But, have you realized that this is convenient for politicians and the media? At last, the Nazis are winning the WWII. “Wat is said, is real”; neverminds it were true or reasonable.

      • #3217196

        most knowledgeable people

        by bigbigboss ·

        In reply to A tangle of replies for the fly

        I have been telling people that the most knowledgeable people are junior high students, and their admitted level of knowledge decline steadily until it hits zilch by the time they become full professors of an ivy league. If you don’t believe it, just ask a junior high (or middle school) student.

        However, look on the bright side. This is going to pass. This happens when the majority of the people did not grow up with using computers. When the next crop of geeks hits the street (those in primary schools now), these know it alls will know nothing at all. I have predicted the passing of desk side help desk for a few years now, and I see it coming real soon now.

    • #3217188

      Re: arrogant workers

      by curran.davis ·

      In reply to Arrogant lil workers

      Sadly common, but this type won’t last in support long without people skills. And after all: HR droids have to start somewhere.

      • #3274585

        Outsourse Call Center’s themselves are to Blame

        by glenvdb ·

        In reply to Re: arrogant workers

        The helpdesk industry has been corruped by all the outsourse centers. Companies like Convergys don’t want skilled people, all they want is “Butts in a chair” and the worker dosn’t have to speak english or know anything about computers. In fact,all they want is people to work for $10 an hour. I have worked for a few call centers (Even Dell) and they are all run the same way- its not about helping people with problems, its about numbers and answering as many calls a day (especially when people are paying $99 a call)
        HR people are no better, they see you worked in a few call centers and they expect you will work in more, even if has nothing to do with IT or helpdesk. I get at least 5 calls a week from HR people desperate to fill call center jobs- even non-computer related, all because I thought I had to “pay my dues” in a call center.

    • #3274582

      I was nearly fired three times in the first three months

      by media-ted9 ·

      In reply to Arrogant lil workers

      because I came to a company with experience, dedication, and quality. The company was hiring people and “interns” who had little knowledge, and I was trying to overcome the compounding problems as much as I could, including saving my work for them on removable disks so when their “servers” lost or truncated entire books of work, I could “restore” it, but they preferred to have me rework it – costing them another three weeks.

      As I say, they threatened to fire me for performing in a professional manner.

      As I see it, the problem is not as much with the silly students – they’re that age, that’s what we should expect!

      The real problem is with corporate “management know-it-alls” who don’t want to spend quality pay for quality work; who don’t know how computers work, … and would rather die than learn; managers who rely on their intuitive ignorance for success in decision-making, then blame the real workers for “stirring the pot” when things cannot possibly work right. Of course, these same folk couldn’t tell if things were going right by accident; they refuse to know the difference. Their main/only concern is that they can hear the sound of their own voices and see people scurry around at their commands – – – as long as nothing happens to get them in trouble.

      The useless middle management (and upper, in too many cases).

    • #3274578

      Arrogant lil workers

      by dmcnair420 ·

      In reply to Arrogant lil workers

      man, you are so correct. I spent 5 years in school trying to get the degrees that I needed to be an IT professional only to find that work does not exist for those that are 40+ in the field. Just the other day I had in in my office that insisted that my printer was broken. I let him fiddle around with it for a while and then I added paper while he was gone to server room…when got back the i was nearly finished printing a 50 page document and he stormed out of the office without saying goodbye…now who’s the dummy?

      • #3274553

        SHAME ON YOU

        by expresso ·

        In reply to Arrogant lil workers


      • #3274507

        You hit the nail on the head!

        by ornerdoug ·

        In reply to Arrogant lil workers

        I also spent 4 1/2 years writing my own degree in Information & Web Technologies.
        I am starting to wonder why I went back to school and made another bill when all I would of had to do was say I knew what I was doing and looked busy for about 7 hours a day while I chatted with my pals and played games during work hours.

        I look back fondly on those 12 hour factory shifts.

    • #3274471

      Funny you should mention it…

      by mark40930 ·

      In reply to Arrogant lil workers

      but most of the people I work with at my help desk are rabidly into World of Warcraft. What helps is that I am with a very knowledgable bunch of folks, most all of them have 5-7 years of experience in the IT field, including experience in system admin, telecommunications, and hardware troubleshooting.
      We all laugh sometimes at the sales people we provide support, especially when we use RDC to perform access to their laptops to change settings. There is at least one who honestly believe we can see them through the laptop screen when we remote in!! Most however are grateful for what we can do for them to get them back out and running again.

    • #3274452

      I am a young buck, but I can only speak for myself

      by ssampier ·

      In reply to Arrogant lil workers

      I am young, I am 26 years old and I have been in IT only 2 years now. I do have my BS degree though. The more education I have, the more I realize how much I DO NOT know. I am happy to learn as much as I can as fast I can.

      No one knows everything. It is terrible that those young people have this attitude (as if playing World of Warcraft was an employable skill).

    • #3274394

      Same conversations, same complaints

      by mgtucker ·

      In reply to Arrogant lil workers

      Company executives and other users complained about dealing with the programmers when the only computers were mainframes. That arrogance (demonstrated by those “experienced” guys in this conversation) gave birth to mini-computers. The arrogance of those programmer/operators gave birth to micro-computers.

      Usually, we complain about what other people demonstrate we secretly hate about ourselves.

      If my job can be attempted by a junior who will work for $12.50 per hour, it can be attempted by an Indian in Coimbatore, India for $4.12 per hour. RDC works just as well from another continent.

      If one is so smart and capable, one might find it more rewarding to develop the next “killer app” instead of finding “fault”. A Google search for “only small minds” found 519 hits so draw your own conclusions.

      The first 20 years of any new “breakthrough” is always the “golden years”. Telephones, radio, television, microcomputer (1981+/-).

    • #3274320

      But mainly the media have bring it up

      by maeseralf ·

      In reply to Arrogant lil workers

      In a recent survey in England, an agency (I don’t remember its name)stated that the 75% of the children in the range of less than 5 years had sent at least one e-mail, and used to navigate Internet. I don’t know if things have changed so long, but when I was 5, I scantily read a few letters, and wrote none. But papers and TV news are frequently bluffing about the easy knowledge the children have about computing, while their parents can’t understand them. The next generation is coming with the feeling and the conviction that they actually are somewhat genious, just because they are young. And they learn nothing about responsibility, effort, and work. This is the world our informed society is doing.
      How many boys and girls choose a career on real science today? A complete program on real technology? Here in Spain we have more schools for IT, than for Medicine or classical engineering. Only in Madrid there are 13 official schools, and around 15 private centres. But only two for Medicine. Think on it as in NewMexico or Texas (the size is somewhat close) were more than 100 universities titulating on that.

    • #3217141

      That is what we get…

      by drdosus ·

      In reply to Arrogant lil workers

      When we allowed Micro$oft to dummy down the MCSE program also, we (the technical community, that is) allowed the MCSE ‘boot camps’ to survive.
      Between the poor corporate attitude and Microsoft’s toilet-paper MCSE “certifications”, we have a bunch of Windows babies who know nothing of the basic operations in a computer.
      But they’re cheap.

      You get what you pay for.

    • #3217126


      by mollenhourb9 ·

      In reply to Arrogant lil workers


    • #3217097

      Really not as much a problem anymore

      by tony k ·

      In reply to Arrogant lil workers

      Thanks to offshoring, a lot of these entry-level positions have gone away. That raises the barrier to entry for the noobs and should increase the quality of the people who start filtering their way in over the next few years. There are many who oppose offshoring in IT, but I LOVE it for every reason mentioned in the original post. Good riddance to bad rubbish!

    • #3217088

      Arrogant Old co workers?

      by now left tr ·

      In reply to Arrogant lil workers

      They exist as well, just as much as the young ones. They think they know it all and are not open to new ideas or change.

      Just showing the other side of the coin, nothing else.

      • #3217058

        OH Yes!

        by media-ted9 ·

        In reply to Arrogant Old co workers?

        As Mr. Hundert put it in, “Emperor’s Club”: “Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but stupid lasts forever.”

        Arrogant Old co-workers are nothing more than lil co-workers aged in their own stupor. That sets the platform for us acknowledging and considering the broad spectrum of arrogance. Like “Chicken-Man” they’re everywhere, and like Sixth Senseless “They see only what they want to see; they do not know they are stupid”.

        Thanks. I guess we all needed that. I know it helped me. It’s true, it’s most annoying, it’s ubiquitous, and it’s never-ending. We should not dump on the inexperienced exclusively.

        I love the living clich?: “Never argue with a fool; he will drag you down to his level, then beat you with experience”.

        Your coin is well-taken.

    • #3217745

      I agree but…..

      by tolbertae ·

      In reply to Arrogant lil workers

      Unfortunately, we do have to admit that the younger crowd grew up with the PC in thier environment. Not like my generation, where we thought that the TRS-80 was going to save the world.

      I remember the days of “BIG” raises for being a”Help Desk” analyst. Even now with Network and LAN Administration become easier that almost any monkey can do it. Now, it is time for us “older” techies to move to a more lucrative field like “Information Assurance” and Network Security. With our “seasoned” expirience we should do fine.

      It is time to pass the torch to the younger generation to do this lower form of work in the IT field, we just have to manage and train them to use the “paper” and go outside when needed.

    • #3226136

      ‘these little arrogant “know it all” jerks’

      by absolutely ·

      In reply to Arrogant lil workers

      If they really appear to you to “know it all”, arrogance really isn’t the correct word to describe their belief that they are pc experts. Realism would be more accurate. And if another person’s competence and confidence bothers you that’s your issue, to work out in therapy, not while you’re being paid to work.

    • #3223633

      First off…

      by phxfox ·

      In reply to Arrogant lil workers

      dont knock WoW! ok, but really im just a student with some intern exp, and these jerks that your speaking of are everywhere. Example: a guy in class who says he knows 10 programming languages and wont shut up in class…but he can’t complete simple programs in C++ becouse of the math involved? I think the IT field is doomed with such idiots. the good thing is no one wants to work in a teams with these tards. In my opinion, teamwork is the key to the IT field. Myself…well i know that i have only scratched the surface of IT.

      • #3223608

        If you…

        by dawgit ·

        In reply to First off…

        ‘know’that, you’ll probably go far. The first step in learning, is to know you don’t know….
        I will be the first (ok, one of the first) to say “I’m still learning”. (shoot, fact is, the last chapter hasn’t been writen yet.)
        The day I stop Learning, is the day they find what’s left of my dead body.

      • #3223524

        Well first thing I agree with Uncle Albert when he said

        by hal 9000 ·

        In reply to First off…

        That no student should be allowed to leave school without knowing just how little that they know.

        I’ve been working what was once known as computers and now is called IT for over 30 years and there is only 1 certainty I know that I know [b]Bugger All![/b]

        But what I do find scary is some of the things said by people who should know better things like Boolean is Dead and no longer used in any form. That statement from a M$ Partners Meeting had me laughing for over a week. Unfortunately many believed it.

        The simple fact of life is that you keep learning till either Demetre sets in or you Die. With everything that I’ve forgotten over the years I’m beginning to think that Demetre has already began to set in here though it could just be that I’m trying to do things that are now pointless. 😀


        • #3216369

          G. Boole is surely dead!

          by maeseralf ·

          In reply to Well first thing I agree with Uncle Albert when he said

          Hi,friends! Of course Boole is dead, almost a century before.
          What are they doing then when “Googling”?
          The only thing I’ve realized true in my live is that you only knows about something, when you need to know more on the subject. Be sure, the only thing I don’t know yet, is what I don’t know yet (lol).
          Well, the first statement to build science is perceiving you don’t know something. As the ancient Pygmies said: “To know with certitude you must start by the doubt.”
          And, as I said before, to be an expert only means you know because you have lived. So, you will live so long as you will keep on learning things.

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