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  • #2317107



    by lordinfidel ·

    Major power outages reported in New York City, other parts of Northeast, Cleveland, Detroit and other cities. Details soon.

    I was on the phone with out NY office when it happened.

    Anyone have any news?

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  • Author
    • #3544288

      Short brownout

      by thechas ·

      In reply to BREAKING NEWS!!!!!

      I just experienced a short brownout with some funny power fluctuations in Western Michigan.


    • #3544283

      On CNN

      by lordinfidel ·

      In reply to BREAKING NEWS!!!!!

      Initial reports are saying it is a fire in the power station in nyc???

      No one is confirming anything yet.

      Looking at the live pictures off of the satelite of gridlock in lower manhattan.

      That is all they are showing.

      • #3544278

        Scrambing in Chicago

        by joseph moore ·

        In reply to On CNN

        Yep, our NY and Toronto offices were also hit. People are scrambling around here in Chicago, reassuring people that our UPS is working and our DR site is up and fine in case Chicago gets hit.

        • #3544257

          Glad to be on the West Caost

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Scrambing in Chicago

          For today anyhow. (knock on the keyboard)

          Hope all gets straightened out for you guys, running MS servers must keep you busy enough without the added pains.

          I feel guilty now for playing golf all morning, just kidding, I feel great! OUCH !

        • #3544251

          Not for good admins

          by lordinfidel ·

          In reply to Glad to be on the West Caost

          I almost feel left out. I never get to feel the pain of viruses and worms.

          The biggest thing we contend with here is spyware getting installed. Typically though as soon as it get’s installed and tries to phone home, we know about it.

          All of this worm crap though goes on my theory that if admins set up their networks correctly, they would never have to worry about this stuff. Even if they are not patched.

          Think about it, by simply following the de facto firewall standard of blocking the infamous MS ports at your perimter. You would never be vulnerable to the attack. You could have a totally unpatched system behind it and it will still not get exploited by this thing.

          People just don’t get it. Especially since this patch has been out for a month. And widely discussed on the security focus lists- pre lovesan.

        • #3544120

          Novell happiness

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Not for good admins

          I am lucky enough to have two clients that BOTH have Netware servers and GroupWise mail.

          I do see your point though, people seem to resolve the sytmptoms but rarely prevent the virus from hitting in the first place. A little more attention and preperation would help so many Net Admins.

          As a mechanic, I see this in that field too, preventative medicine may take time or money but it saves a lot of headaches.

        • #3544212

          Then our ISP has SPOF……

          by joseph moore ·

          In reply to Scrambing in Chicago

          Single Point of Failure….

          Yep, turns out our extranet ISP has a SPOF located somewhere in NYC, and it just went down. Now none of our offices can talk together via our Extranet connection.

          TTL Expires In Transit

          Sigh… this is my life……

        • #3544144

          This might be the occasion to discuss DR

          by road-dog ·

          In reply to Then our ISP has SPOF……

          With a large power outage (both geographically and duration), most disaster recovery and failover plans go out the window.

          Even if one had emergency power for server and network assets (battery and generator), what good is it if the facility power is down and the phones are out at the Telco?

          Hopefully, all the CIOs have stated in their DR plans that these global outages fall outside the scope of their control and planning.

          I once had a manager tell me that he wanted a UPS on every computer so power loss would not impact business. I told him that a vendor would be happy to sell him as many UPS’s as he wanted, so his personnel could use their monitor as a night light….

        • #3544127

          This is a good time to talk about it

          by lordinfidel ·

          In reply to This might be the occasion to discuss DR

          DR usually does not get address’d enough or even seriously at the mid-level company.

          Most ISP’s have their faciltities are on mulitple power grids and have backup generators. And most larger corporations have in-depth plans.

          The reports I am getting from InterNap regarding their NY facilities. Was that they are running on diesel and have arranged for refueling for this afternoon.

          I know my local facility (corporate) has a propane gas generator that will kick in and power the entire building. We have enough gas to continue operations for several days. And we make sure that our colo facilities can do the same.

          But the shared office building that houses our NY office does not have a backup generator. And they are out of commission. Luckily they are just a sales office and not a mission critical part of daily operations.

        • #3544119

          How does your organization define mission critical?

          by road-dog ·

          In reply to This is a good time to talk about it

          This is a fundamental question as a regional office supporting customers in that area would still be ineffective if the clients are out of commission due to a wide area power outage.

          This goes to “how good is good enough?” as relates to capital expenditures on purchase and maintenance of infrastructure.

          I would draw the line (tentatively) at costs of downtime of 48 hours for the office. If the cost of providing emergency power exceeds the lost revenued from a “worst case” power outage, then it doesn’t make business sense to implement. If a regional power outage exceeds 48 hours, then all businesses in that area are severely compromised, and your business’ vendors and customers have problems as well.

          This applies only to regional offices, HQ supports (presumably) offices outside the affected area, even as relates to an outage the size of the one we just experienced. A HQ in the big apple would also need to maintain connectivity to the south and west, at least until the backup DR site comes online.

          How does one measure customer relations impact with a global outage? Do customers “understand” loss of service when a huge impact happens that is out of EVERYONE’S control? Does your company’s typical contract include language protecting itself from missed deadlines due to “acts of God”?

        • #3543590

          More to the point “Was This An Act of God”

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to How does your organization define mission critical?

          Or nothing more than the result of penny pinching at the corporate level? The overhead power distrubition grid is the most important piece of any countries infrastructure as without it we are all down and out for the count. You where extremely lucky over there that this was nothing more than a limited event of realitevly short duration. Think of the conquences if it had gone on for a week.
          This is now a very good time to have a deep look at just how good all our power supply actually are, I’ll bet we find them all comming up short no matter where any of us actually live as these lines are rolled out as cheaply as possible and then nothing is done to them until they fail. Usualy this doesn’t present a real problem as there are other feeder lines to draw from but in this case where everything was affected it is a different story isn’t it? Over here we had a explosion at a gas producing facility that rendered it inoperable for over 1 month and the limited gass stored was then restricted first to emergency ussage and any left over was then allowed to domistic applications with none available for industry use. How would any of us fare if this happened to our power supply? We all could probably get by for a couple of weeks but then we would all be deep in the brown stuff as even the fuel for the generators would be in short supply and there would be little fuel available to transport it around and none to crack it.

          Kind of makes us all think just how vunerable we actually are doesn’t it?

          Would anyone like to take thsi further?

        • #3543491

          Corporate penny pinching

          by thechas ·

          In reply to More to the point “Was This An Act of God”

          One of the headlines in todays paper (8-17-03) says that the power company that owned 2 of the the 3 lines that failed had inoperative monitoring equipment.

          As I have said several times, corporate mergers do NOT result in benefits for the general population.
          The cost of acquiring companies is born by both the workers and the customers.

          The workers by lay-offs and increased work loads.

          The customers by poorer service, fewer choices, and higher prices.


    • #3544243

      There hiding something

      by thechas ·

      In reply to BREAKING NEWS!!!!!

      This blackout is VERY reminiscent of the great blackout of 1965.

      The “official” explanation of that blackout was the failure of a small relay.

      It was HEAVILY speculated at the time that the actual cause of the blackout was UFO activity.

      Are the aliens back?

      Did they ever leave?

      Back in the 60’s (at the peak of the UFO craze) one of the ‘common’ factors of most reported UFO sitings was the sudden failure of ALL electrical systems.

      Be it cars or the power grid, when a UFO was sited, the power went off, or a cars electrical system died.
      When the UFO left the area, the power came back on, and cars would run again.

      Keep in mind, that cars from the 60’s had NO computers or electronic controls.

      Just food for thought.


      • #3544236

        Occam’s Razor comes to mind

        by road-dog ·

        In reply to There hiding something

        I’m ready to discount alien activities as the cause of the grid failure. I’m prepared to accept the possibility that too many of the 8 million NY residents had their air conditioning crank up at the same time.

        Usually the simplest explanation is the best….

        It seems that the cars are still running, albeit with very little traffic control at the moment. Darkness falls in the big apple soon, I hope everybody’s fire insurance premiums are current. A blackout combined with the unseasonably high temperature is a recipe for mayhem. I hope the lights come back on before things get ugly.

        • #3544218

          I think it is a Conspiracy

          by lordinfidel ·

          In reply to Occam’s Razor comes to mind

          It’s just a plot by big oil, communists and the catholic church in keeping the little man down.

          I know this to be true because my friend, knows a guy whose 3rd cousins niece works in a waste treatment plant. Well, her co-workers mom has a secret lover who took a tour of the Ugunda National Mini Golf Hall of Fame. And while he was there, he overheard some people talking, but he could not understand them. So he asked a homeless guy what they were saying, and the homeless guy spit on him and then told him that big oil, the communists and the catholic church were “in bed” together and were planning a ‘major’ attack on the liberal canadian bastards.

          You draw your own conlusions.

        • #3544206

          Bad design of NE grid

          by thechas ·

          In reply to I think it is a Conspiracy

          Actually, there are major blackouts on the NE grid far too often.

          It would appear that there is a major design flaw in the design of the grid.

          I think that they need to make 2 changes:

          Each power plant needs to have it’s own supply of power for running the plant, along with the ability to disconnect from the grid.

          The grid needs to be able to shed sections of load rather than try and keep everything up.

          There were some changes made after the “Great Blackout”.
          However, it looks like the lessons were not learned, and cutting corners to lower costs took precedence over keeping the grid reliable.

          I find it very disconcerting to hear that the nuclear power plants that supply the grid had to shut down when the grid went down as they need the grid to supply the power to operate the plant.

          We need a change of mind-set in this country.
          Consumers, Business and government need to ask what is the best way to do their job, not the cheapest.


        • #3544063

          Power Company Monopolies

          by tomsal ·

          In reply to Bad design of NE grid

          I’m not that well verse in the power industry but I saw on tv (I believe it was Fox News) they had some big wig political person saying (about the recent power outage) that the main difficulty in this country with updating power facilities and streamlining processes is that spread through the various regions of the country you have virutal power company monopolies who “run the show” in their region they way *THEY* see fit. There is little agreement and cooperation between major power companies accross the nation and with the federal government.

          The report said this is the major reason for a horribly maintained power system in this country.

          That said (knock on wood) the power in my region (Southern NJ) is quite good and fairly reliable (about 1 outtage every 8-9 months that lasts an hour or less and probably 1 outtage per 12-18 months that exceeds 1 hour).

        • #3544059

          Not as much a monopoly as a franchise

          by road-dog ·

          In reply to Power Company Monopolies

          Power companies pay big bucks to regulatory agencies for the areas they serve and must submit to government controls relating to rates and major expenditures.

          The problem is that even though all of these franchises are independent, they must cooperate to cover outages and to meet peak needs.

          The interdependence of these operations force cooperation, but lots of contractual problems arise at handoff points and charges between them for work that is for the common good. The regulatory powers of government are so stringent that they have not built a new power plant in California in 10+ years.

          I worked on the Nine Mile Point II plant in the 70’s as a construction grunt. This was a lesson in abject ineffeciency, graft, and outright bureaucratic incompetance. It’s no wonder to me that the system failed so spectacularly.

          I think that the only way that the system could be straightened out is for the Army Corps of Engineers and the Navy’s Nuclear expertise be brought in the mix. They should perform a top down review of all of the power companies running the show. The one running the tightest ship in the system would be given control of the whole thing. Then all recommendations by the DOE would be put in place system wide as they can be paid for by operating revenues.

          All fraud, waste, and abuse in the system would be handled as a felony, from the lowest meter reader to the top dog…

        • #3544175

          The British are coming… The British are coming…

          by lumberjack ·

          In reply to I think it is a Conspiracy

          The news is out of the bag!

          the REAL reason is the UK has decided its time to retake the old colonies. The cut of power can mean only one thing – Invasion!

          First to land will be our shock troops – Thousands of Simon Cowell clones in white body armour. These will be supported by the parachuting in of the horific Roboblairs. Huge robots designed to spread fear by the use of menacing grins.

          You may have the MOAB but here we have QEKs. Any points of resistance will be taken out by the dropping of “Queen Elizabeth’s Knickerbockers”

          Be Afraid – Be very Afraid!!!

        • #3544114

          You missed GB’s Covert Ops teams

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to The British are coming… The British are coming…

          The Wombles are digging their way into the NY subway as we speak. Orinocho is putting the kettle on for a full invasion.

          Zebbedy says it’s time for bed and the lights go out, I sure hope Dylan can stop him before Noddy and Big ears call PC Plod.

          Bill and Ben sre waiting patiently in their flower pots and weed is getting ready to sprout.

          Ok I’ll stop now, MOST people won’t know what the heck I’m talking about, but that’s normal.

        • #3543587

          Oz you’re too old as you’ve forgotten

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to You missed GB’s Covert Ops teams

          That Noddy is of the shelves because he’s a homosexual remember he lives with Big Ears?

          That is a sure give away of his sexulaty isn’t it? Well that’s at least how it was portrayed all those years ago.

          Then from memory Bill and Ben where just dropped without any warning and left to have weed and his friends grow all over them out of control.

          But I see that the Thunderbirds have made a comeback so maybe there will be a whole bunch of puppets controlled from their headquarters in space invading but they would need long strings wouldn’t they?

        • #3543504

          Then again perhaps

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Oz you’re too old as you’ve forgotten

          The evil “Master” has caught the good Doctor Who off guard and returned to earth in the TARDIS and is begining to wreak his havoc by starting with destroying the power supply network.

          No thta couldn’t be right as it would mean that the alliens have landed wouldn’t it?

        • #3543384

          Not quite true

          by lumberjack ·

          In reply to Oz you’re too old as you’ve forgotten

          Bill and Ben have made a recent come back – all new animation, don’t know if they speak english or flubbadub!

        • #3543385

          OH No!

          by lumberjack ·

          In reply to You missed GB’s Covert Ops teams

          Oh No

          I remember them all – and Muffin The Mule! I am sure that was really some sort of perversion!

          And as Andy Pandy said – Louby Loo is a lousy lay!

        • #3544042

          Funny you should say that….

          by guruofdos ·

          In reply to The British are coming… The British are coming…

          Much of the infrastructure of the NE US power grid has been in place since the 1930’s, and with ever bigger power hungry processors now needing 400+ watt ATX psus instead of good old 200w AT psus, the system had finally collapsed! Fortunately, the British HAVE come to the rescue. National Grid, the UK’s generating and distribution company have taken over the responsibility of upgrading and maintaining America’s distribution grid and so things are on the up. Of course, some will blame them for the problem, but in actual fact, they are the only people who accepted the tender to modernise America’s archaic and obsolete grid…the only problem is, they were given the job 40 years too late! Perhaps switching off a few lights in Times Square may help in the interim?

          The other issue is the Canadians, who are blaming the Americans, and the Americans blaming the Canadians. Just quit the in-fighting and let us Brits get the lights back on!

    • #3544177

      The Life of a Worm is a Sad Life

      by worlduser ·

      In reply to BREAKING NEWS!!!!!

      I admit it, up to know I have spent 2 days at home, alternating between doing some ‘vital at home work’ and leisurely browsing the Tech Discussion Boards – English don’t have any humour anyway – but I have never been so entertained!

      I have been sending links to my other ‘Sad’ friends who also don’t have a life full of worms, blackouts, aliens, (UNLESS of course you consider our MPs)!

      Thank you for my sad time at home – unfortunately, I have to go to work at some time!

    • #3544116

      Funny people

      by oz_media ·

      In reply to BREAKING NEWS!!!!!

      There were some real idiots in Toronto last night and I must say, the New Yorkers handled themselves accordingly.

      I watched a lady (about 30-35 yrs.old) sitting in a CAB on the news im downtown Toronto bitching that she had left work due to the blackout and was trying to make it home and that it was taking forever and costing her tons of money.

      Let’s see, what’s wrong with THIS picture:

      a) She’s in a CAB for crying out loud ! In downtown Toronto, GET OUT AND FREAKIN WALK YOU LAZY BAG!!!

      b) She was complaining that she couldn’t get home.
      WHY? First of all, you were planning on being at work until 5, is it all of a sudden a RUSH to get home by 2?

      c) Why not go sit in the park and veg out or suntan until dinner time when the rush slows down a bit and traffic has mellowed out?

      These people were in nrear panic! It’s only power, light and heat in the middle of summer on a sunny day?!? I can see it affecting business servers, but even those should have ample battery backup to help reduce the damage and allow you enough time to properly shut down your servers.. I’ve sold 12hr power supply’s, they work great.

      I think the scene in Toronto was as pathetic as the concert they paid the Stones 10 million for. The crowds at Canadian concerts are simply the world’s worst, most decent bands skip Vancouver now, due to poor sales and small turnouts.

      In light of the events of 911, I think New Yorkers were so very composed and handled the situation accordingly, two thumbs up to those guys.

      As for the reasons, US news says it was a Canadian plant, Canadian news says it was a US plant. I think I’ll go with Chas and say the aliens are coming. I sighted a few ast night I’m sure (illegal aliens that is).

      In BC we have our own independant grid, we supply enough hydro electric power for our own province and sell a whack of it to California.

      • #3544097


        by generalist ·

        In reply to Funny people

        (*** Begin Tongue-in-Cheek Sarcasm ***)

        Walking is un-American, even in Canada. People have a deity given ‘right’ to ride in their cars or even, shudder, transit, even when something like a blackout makes said transportation hard to use. If something interfers with that ‘right’ they can demand that the government do something about it RIGHT NOW.

        (*** End Tongue-in-Cheek Sarcasm ***)

        I have little pity for those people who gripe about restricted travel conditions caused by snarled traffic and power outages. The only hope for the woman is the possibility that she had high heels and couldn’t walk very far without going barefoot.

        • #3544062

          Well said

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Walk?

          Your sarcasm is cute but even as sarcasm, I have to deny your statements.

          I HATE driving! I am forced to visit my contracts once or twice a week just to see that office machines are working as well as write new documents, advertisements and other promotional materials, work on sales training etc. I take a ferry from Vancouver Island, I used to take my car because it is a pretty long haul between offices but it costs $60.00 each way after food on the ferry.

          I finally started taking the bus to the ferry and walking on, the busses oin my area are few and far between, so I started hitch hiking which was kinda cool as a flashback to my youth as a S*&T disturber. THEN I stated to get up early, make a coffe (decaf, now that I’m allergic to caffeine) and start walking. it took about 2 1/2 hours but I was refreshed when I got to the ferry. I’ve since moved even farther up island and it’s about a nine hour walk so I decline and drive instead.

          As a mechanic, I love cars, as a commuter I HATE THEM. Personally, there hasn’t been a car made in over 20 years that I’d drive (for less than $100,000 anyhow). Cars are a complete wste of tmioe and resources in my mind. No I’m not some heavy duty tree hugging, granola guy. I just don’t see why people drive for 5 minutes to get somewhere when they can walk in 15.

          If I’m in Vancouver and need to get around, I leave my car at one of the offices and take a bus. If the bus isn’t waiting at the stop when I get there, I walk. When the bus strike was on, most people stayed home for three or four weeks (can’t remember how long it was but it lasted a while) I walked EVERYWHERE when in Vancouver.

          I just HATE waiting, whether in traffic or waiting for a bus, I’d rather walk. It takes longer but I see more and get the fresh air and satisfaction of the excercise (which ALL IT staff can use when sitting for hours on end).

          I have lost weight, increased my stamina and just generally feel better by walking. I like to cruise around sometimes but prefer to walk most times.

          A looooong wordy explanation but I just don’t understand how people can be so reliant on lifes little privaleges that they can’t walk home 10 miles or even walk 5 minutes to the local store.

          LAZY, LAZY, LAZY.

          But I do get the whole Dennis Leary gas guzzling pig with baby seal eyes for headlights thing.

        • #3543547

          hee hee

          by guruofdos ·

          In reply to Well said

          I visited my ‘out-laws’ in NY state and offered to cook a meal one evening. By cook a meal, I mean COOK a meal using only fresh ingredients and no pre-prepared crap. I needed some pretty basic stuff, so the mother-in-law drove me to the local Giant, about a kilometre away from ‘home’. I WOULD have walked, except it was my first visit there and didn’t know the area, being a lowly ‘Limey-Brat’ as she affectionately calls me! Having completed the shopping for ingredients I then asked where the aisle was for wine as I decided a good quality French red would set the dinner off perfectly. She said I couldn’t buy wine there and I had to go to the liquor store for that. I paid for the grogeries, and we went back out to the car, put the bags in the boot, then got in. She started the car and proceeded to drive 40 yards to another space, park the car and then told me that the building in front of me was the liquor store. 40 yards?!!! I’m NOT kidding!!!
          For her to walk out of one store and into the one next door was unheard of and she couldn’t understand why I (as a European) was so amused by this.

          We all know that starting a car counts for 95% of the engine wear in a 5 minute journey, and that until an engine has warmed up for at least 10 minutes, the CAT converter doesn’t actually work properly…and that it takes 4 minutes of running to put back into a battery what a 10 second start takes out. I asked the father-in-law how many batteries he’s had on the car and he reckons at least four in 5 years. My diesel powered car has the original factory fitted battery (manufactured in 1991) and the car has covered 210,000 miles. Perhaps the US should invest in education and ‘mindset changing’ as well as buying a few European batteries for when the next power cut happens!

        • #3543535

          Contrary to big business

          by thechas ·

          In reply to hee hee

          We would NEVER be allowed to switch people from driving to walking, or, heaven forbid, riding a bicycle for transport.

          One would think that I am a cruel parent because I did not get a car for my son and daughter as soon as they got their drivers license.

          In fact, I was even more cruel, and forced my son to take the bus to his college classes.

          With our current administration, we are now more than ever at the whims of the military industrial complex.

          What is good for GM is good for the country.

          Basically, our entire economy is built around the manufacturing and sale of automobiles.

          Take a look at the peaks and valleys of the US economy since 1948. You will see that the first sign of a recession is a drop in auto sales.

          Even for recreation, there are a large number of people who feel the need to have an internal combustion engine as a required part of ALL recreational activities.

          Many people limit their nature experience to what they can see flying through wooded areas on the quad or snowmobile.

          We just had a section of town fight the city on installing sidewalks. The residents did NOT want sidewalks installed.

          Another thing that amazes me is the way people fight to get a parking space close to the entrance when they go to the gym for exercise.

          There is a recreation bike path near our house. I am continually amused by the number of people who load up their bikes on their SUV and drive a mile or less to use the bike path.

          I think that we are the only country where people NEED to drive a big SUV 1 mile to go spend 1/2 hour at the gym getting in shape.

          A little off the topic, but thanks for the opportunity to vent.


        • #3543461

          You know…

          by guruofdos ·

          In reply to Contrary to big business

          As usual, friend, you hit the nail right on the head!

          Your president is an oil-man by upbringing and we all know how oil companies, not politicians, actually ‘rule the roost’ over there! America sign the Kioto Agreement? No chance! Woe betide anyone who tells Standard, Texaco or Exxon that they have to clean up their act! Technology exists to enable a family car to travel over 1000km on a single gallon of fuel (Imperial, not US gallon….i.e. 4.54 litres) but that wouldn’t be good for the oil companies, would it? And if the oil companies lost revenue, they wouldn’t be able to sponsor pro-energy, anti-conservation politicians….


        • #3543411

          If such a car exists, I want one.

          by road-dog ·

          In reply to You know…

          It’s easy to allege that “big oil” is supressing technology. You don’t even need proof that such a technology exists, because “big oil” has supressed the evidence!

          Further, Alien technology taken from the crash site in Roswell, NM would allow us to manufacture chocolate that will assist in weight loss and make our penises grow by 50%. That information is being suppressed by the pharmaceutical industry and the global lesbian conspiracy with the financial backing of Weight watchers. See, no proof necessary!

          The Kyoto treaty is a joke. Global warming is a farce. The US rejecting the Kyoto treaty was a smart move.

          If the US did sign the Kyoyo treaty, manufacturing and pollution would just move to the dozens of countries that are exempted from the treaty. This treaty will not even fix what it is intended to fix.

          The Ozone hole in the Antarctic got smaller last year without the US signing the treaty……

        • #3543372

          GW A Farce!!???

          by lumberjack ·

          In reply to If such a car exists, I want one.

          The ozone hole reduced despite the US not signing up.
          Global warming a farce – what do you think has been cuasing the extremes of weather the UK and most of Europe have experienced in the last few years.
          The giant undersea ice sheet that is the main pump behind the Northa Atlantic drift (gulf stream)has not been renewing as the sea temperatures off Iceland have not dropped as much as normal over winter. Global Warming is a known fact in most of the world except it seems in the US where it goes against business profits

        • #3543369

          Well said!

          by guruofdos ·

          In reply to GW A Farce!!???

          No further comment required!

        • #3543343

          A little light reading!

          by guruofdos ·

          In reply to Well said!

        • #3543287


          by oz_media ·

          In reply to A little light reading!

          Don’t you mean LITE reading?

          Sorry, bad pun.

        • #3543248

          GW is a Farc – just a green whiney song

          by jimhm ·

          In reply to GW A Farce!!???

          Global warming – hum lets see because of co2 and other gases … where is the evidence? – hum could it be other events – higher undersea volcanic activity? Earth tilt? Sun Spots? The moon slowly moving away from the earth and will fall out of orbit some day? To Much Cow Poop? Pig Poop? Bears Pooping in the woods?

          Hum – The GW is a greenwhiney song they have been singing for the past 20 years – and nothing has changed – so Europe had an above average summer this year… we have had a below average summer… more rain – cooler temp’s…

          Has the oceans levels raised – NO – gee but its getting warming at the poles? Deep sea ice isn’t forming? So where did all that water go..

          Global Warming = Green Whineies Bullnuts – theres already to much poop creating Global warming gases… The Greenies haven’t proven their theroy, conjecture, speculations, assumption (an ass out of u and me), premise, suppositions – Hey they are all Guesses… It’s not a fact – it hasn’t been repeated or proven … the models are based on assumptions and not scientific facts …

          Now moving to Hydrogen fuel cells for cars is the right idea – but not for global warming (since it is BS)- but for other reasons… need a fill up – pull out the garden hose —

        • #3543186

          Not a clue

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to GW is a Farc – just a green whiney song

          It is really obvious through this segue that you guys don’t have a clue or give damn about global warming. It is obvious also that you are given no resources to form an opinion and that the resources trhat other coutruies provide are NOT relevant because they are not recognized by you country. If it isn’t in OUR papers, it’s BS.

          Just because a country decides that it’s economy is far more important than the state of the world, doesn’t meamn you have to be blind and stupid. It is just another way of enforcig what I’ve been saying all along, “If Anerica doesn’t like or profit from it, then it should be ignored and noone should believe it.” If the people don’t believe it, it ias because it has not been plastered allover the TV. MIND YOU,m if GB even mentioned it as a problem in passing, the USA would go and destroy ANY country NOT obeying the global laws that the US has formed.

          Again, are you all just waiting for your disillusioned president to make a stand so you can follow like sheep or do you actually have the ability to form an opinion based on facts available globally?

        • #3543368


          by guruofdos ·

          In reply to If such a car exists, I want one.

          Case in point. Several companies have developed ‘bio-diesel’ from waste organic material. It has the same energy output per litre as regular diesel, can be used in any diesel vehicle with no modification whatsoever and costs approximately 12 cents a gallon to produce. Guess what? The oil companies were up in arms about it saying that it would wipe out their years of investment overnight and destroy the oil industry. So governments put additional taxation on bDiesel and it retails at the same price as regular. So where is the incentive to use it as an alternative?

          It produces zero sulphur dioxide in it’s emissions, has no particulates in it’s smoke and is virtually completely renewable. But of course, Shell, Texaco, BP and Exxon don’t give a damn about that…..they still want their share of the pie….even if it is costing us ‘the Earth’.

        • #3543365

          Dual Fuel

          by guruofdos ·

          In reply to If such a car exists, I want one.

          The ‘infernal combustion engine’ is a factor of 5 times more efficient than it was 100 years ago, but even if it is 20 times more efficient, can only extract some 17% of the energy contained in a litre of fossil fuel. There is a certain point at which an engine produces it’s maximum possible efficiency and returns the best fuel efficiency but these conditions are rarely maintained for very long in a normal vehicle. Radical new designs of engine have come about leading to gains in fuel conversion efficiency approching 80% and by using dual fuel vehicles, such as we have in Europe and Japan now, fuel returns of 120mpg are possible from vehicles only costing 5-10% more than conventional vehicles. In a typical year covering 12,000 miles, this initial cost is recouped very quickly, and then year-on-year, huge savings can be made.

          For many years, colleges and Universities in the UK have entered teams into an annual competition to build a vehicle capable of travelling the farthest distance on a single litre of fuel. The current record stands at 527km. These vehicles aren’t very practical, but if the technology received the investment that GM and Ford put into vehicles, we’d all be travelling in 500mpg+ cars by now and producing 147 billion tons less pollution globally per annum!

          Fact….not fiction!

        • #3543322

          Top Gear Last Night

          by lumberjack ·

          In reply to Dual Fuel

          Top gear (for those that dont know- is the BBC’s weekly look at all things motoring) last night carried a report on an H2 powered vehicle from GM
          requires se-water to be split into H2 and O2, then the car runs on the H2 produced – its only biproduct is water.

          Though it is 5 years at least away from production. Couple this with the report that Iceland is already running a few h2 powered municipal vehicles. Here the geysers supply the mineral water which is easy (in comparison) to split and the energy to split it. Therefore giving the country cheap and renewable energy.
          The Icelandic authorities have announced they expect all municipal vehicles inc public transport to be running on Hydrogen within 5 years and all (new) vehicles on the island to be similarly powered within 10-15 years. – it bodes well for the future.

        • #3543162

          Figures, Eurpoeans light years ahead

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Top Gear Last Night

          No matter what all the patriotic Pro-Americans think, they will have to follow Europe’s standards in order to improve their own.

          Unfortunately, many people will not see reason until the president says it’s a good idea, at which time EVERYONE will run out and buy one, but NOT before slamming all others for not driving one and then claiming it was their invention.

          I loved Iceland (was only there 3 days for layover, but it was awesome)they are VERY concious of the earth and the devastating negative effect man has made on it, perhapse we will all follow suit soon.

          Funny, while camping last weekend I was saying that man has destroyed the earth and that it’s no wonder wild animals attack us, we are the Earth’s worst enemy, not the saviours.

          It seems almost impossible for me to visit the TR discussions without slamming the states. Doesn’t matter what discussion I post to, there’s always some yahoo explanation of things that is completely self centered and ignorant, but linking to retared info posted by another yahoo without a clue. Sorry guys, you painted your own picture, I just saw it.

        • #3543158

          Your neck of the woods, Oz

          by guruofdos ·

          In reply to Figures, Eurpoeans light years ahead

          Well, Southampton, anyway, has been pioneering the use of geothermal energy for many years, just like Iceland. All of Southampton City Council’s offices and municipal buildings are heated by Geothermal energy. The city is now running GasBusses, powered by clean hydrogen and more and more service stations are gearing up for gas powered vehicles. Yes, LPG is still a fossil fuel, but you normally see it being burned off at the top of oil-wells. Contrary to what Jim says, cracking fossil fuels is NOT the easiest way to obtain hydrogen in quantity…electrolysis of sea water is. Electricity generated in Southampton using geothermal energy is being used to power a hydrogen electrolysis system in an experiment to prove that alternative energy is indeed viable and economical. The best part of this? It’s right next door to the Fawley refinery where Esso (Standard Oil) import and refine crude oil!

        • #2745260

          Road-Dog, your ozone

          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to You know…

        • #3543292


          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Contrary to big business

          That’s pretty damn funny Chas, but you’re not alone, I see people doing the 1 mile for 1/2 of excersize all the time. I think that people just get too busy (or at least THINK they’ busy, when all they are doing is living life like everyone else)to THINK about how stupid they are sometimes.
          Most idiotic things you see people do these days are simply due to not thinking about it.

          As for cars being the start of the recession, it is intereting because as an avid horse racing fan, I just watched Seabisciut (you know, the Canadian horse with the Canadian jockey that became America’s heros?!)they were outlining the effects of the recession and how everyone tried to keep thier car as their one possesion to make them feel as if they hadn’t lost all things they had worked for.

          I guess this has been passed down through a few generations and still people feel that a car is a status symbol as opposed to 2000lbs of steel and glass used for long distance transportation.

        • #3543260

          Never happen – only in dreams

          by jimhm ·

          In reply to Contrary to big business

          First – vehicles are a lux item – which is one of the first to suffer when the economy dips – its not the cause – its an indicator – Just like home sales – or any non-esential items are.

          But really – Walking, bike, bus, mass transit, car pooling come on – will never happen or only in dreams of an utopia.

          Currently all industrial countries are under the control of electric power to produce goods and services. The outage showed one thing – that the power grid is out dated and needs updated.

          Did you notice NYC – all the hundreds of thousands of mass transit riders walking…

          Currently there two problems, people in US and Canada – have been used to the freedom of individual travel when they want where they want, and things are spread out for many miles where in europe they are closer and can be biked or walked?

          As for using a Dual fuel vehicle, you still have a the problem of a fossel fuel on board, and still individual freedom of travel. To use fuel Cell technology – the current way to make the netrogen fuel is by “Cracking” natural gas – another fossel fuel.

          So to get individuals – out of their vehicles and into some reliable mass transit or human powered machine – is a pipe dream…

          Hey how about individual anti-gravity belts – or individual flying shoes … they are in the same class as getting everyone to start walking – or biking to places…

          It’s a nice wet dream at this time … it can happen – but none of us will ever see it… maybe in a 100 years if the world makes it that long.

        • #3543249

          Correction I meant hydrogen – not nitrogen

          by jimhm ·

          In reply to Never happen – only in dreams

          Hydrogen is now made from natural gas (methane), petroleum, coal, various chemical reactions, and from biomass (landfill waste, wastewater sludge, and livestock waste). It can also be made from water by electrolysis.

          Yes – they all make it – but the most cost effective and efficient method is cracking natural gas… Sorry – got my gases mixed up ..

        • #3543180

          I’ve never disagreed more!

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Never happen – only in dreams

          Well other than listening to a certain peer blab, but that’s another waste of my time.

          “Currently there two problems, people in US and Canada – have been used to the freedom of individual travel when they want where they want, and things are spread out for many miles where in europe they are closer and can be biked or walked?”

          That’s a nice thought but you obviously haven’t spent too much time in Europe.

          On Vancouver Island, I see more and more people walking, riding, rollerblading etc. every day. In Vancouver it is the same because people don’t want to wait for traffic, and it isn’t even that bad there.
          I think Canadians are extremely concious of global warming and there are a lot of recycling and preservation programs here. We actually still have a beautiful country, we haven’t levelled and sold our forests and our largest park is a protected sanctuary as are thousands of hectares of our precious land. We even protect our wildlife as we would our children.

          When I come back from the US the first thing I notice is that the roadside goes rom brown to green, as does any other oerson coming to BC.
          We like our country and will fight to protect it, similar to you guys but we’re actually talking about protecting our country not forseeing a future threat that MAY have an impact on the country so we better kill’em all (great album)now.

          If you go to Europe, the towns are MUCH closer together as you said, but have you ever tried walking to one?? It’s six miles up and down the steepest, windy terrain ever seen. In England i don’t even pick up the papaer without a car. People do like to hike the wonderful hills and downs but not to go to work. In Canada, the busses have buke racks, people ride to the Ballard Fuel Cell bus, take the bus to within a few miles of work and then ride to work. I see this more and more every day.

          In England, you walk to the local pub, that’s it. Anything else requires transportation, whether by car, the old greeny busses that puke black crap all over or by one of those ancient V12 london cabs that still use the old Spitfire engines.

          Get it straight, read what the rest of the world is doing and perhapse maybe just ONCE you could all rise and tell your president YOUR thoughts instead of just bowing to his.

        • #3543023

          If you go back far enough and to a

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Never happen – only in dreams

          Different country I can vagely remember a British TV series called Dr Who in which in an early part of the series the good old Doctor actually had some adverse things to say against the fossil fuel industry and his responce was that until we learn to use Hydrogen as a fuel this planet will never make the great leap forward. From my memory that was a coment made by the actor Jon Pertwee who was then playing the Doctor. Sorry JimHM it made sence then long before there was any talk of Global Warming or lefty enviromental crap and it makes even more sence now. Or the other altenative is to have U235 power vehicles around but the “Safety” issues wouldn’t rate a single mention in the US would they?

          Personally I’ll stick with the Hydrogen idea as it makes far more sence. America is now beginning to follow the European ideas and has been using “Lead Free” fuels for some time now and one of the byproducts of combustion with these fules is H2SO2 which combines with 2 free oxgen radicals in the athmosphere and returns to earth as “Acid Rain” something that has been in ful swing in Europe for some time now but at least they aren’t breathing in any lead are they? If it was up to me I’d prefer a bit of lead as apposed to all the H2SO4 that is being produced by our petrol guzziling autos that are currently available and being spewed out in tons right now. Hey but at least there isn’t any lead is there?

          Bring on the Acid Rain and only them after a couple of US Presidents have been caught in rain storms and eaten away will something be done but until then the population will be constantly told there is nothing to worry about but just don’t park your cars in the open because the paint will peel off and all the nonplastic parts will be eaten away vey quickly but not by rust but the acid that is being produced in ever increasing quanties from all the car exhausts.

          Just as a side issue the Bio fuels arn’t really the complete answer as the organicly produced ones have some interesting actions on alloys involved in fule induction systems and the Bio Diesel main product of combustion is that the vehicle smells like a fish and chip shop rather than a cars exhaust. This can’t be a good thing can it? If it was there would have to be a redisign of some car parts which would cost money right?

        • #3542977

          I am not saying don’t – I am saying at this

          by jimhm ·

          In reply to Never happen – only in dreams

          I am not saying – don’t switch to Hydrogen fuel source – I am saying at this time the technology is not available for mass usage of it. And it may have more dangers than fossil fuels. Lets see you would be driving around with either a high pressure tank of Hydrogen or a tank of liguified Hydrogen in your trunk. A little more explosive than fossil fuels..

          And the Electronstitic method is new but according to research they haven’t produce the volumes that cracking does for the same costs.

          Yes – you can create Hydrogen with a 12 volt battery and some sea water. But it isn’t in the quanitity required to supply a vehicle, while its running. You can also create it with chemicals again – not in quanitity at an economical cost.

          Yes – Research needs to continue – but don’t let the other technologies go and put all your eggs in the hydrogen basket. Keep your options open.

          Question – for you greenie winnes – if world switches from fossil fuels to hydrogen – hypothec: production of hydrogen creates two gases (correct), 2 atoms of Hydrogen and 1 or Oxygen. The Oxygen is released into the atmosphere during production. After 50 years of use, the O in the atmosphere goes up 5%. Now the atmosphere – plants start to die because of the volume of oxygen and low volume of CO? Hum – Hey I can calm a “Brown House” effects – same as you all calm a “Green House” effects… No evidence on either side.

          Just remember; there are problems and trade-offs for any fuel source with the exception of Solar and Wind. (But wind you have those ugly windmills and hydroelectric dams that could burst and the greens don’t like that a fish can’t get to its home)

          If we are going to switch to alternate fuel sources – it will not happened in the next 25 years. Alternatives need to be cheaper than fossil fuels – easy to use – and as easy to get as the current fossil fuels.

          That’s reality – like it or not –

        • #3542898

          Where does the Oxygen go?

          by generalist ·

          In reply to Never happen – only in dreams

          The idea of oxygen pollution is a good one to consider, but it is fairly easy to handle.

          When a fuel cell creates energy, the hydrogen being fed to the fuel cell combines with the oxygen in the air. Since this is where the ‘waste’ oxygen went the equation balances out over time.

          Nice try Jim.

        • #3543972

          current hydrocarbons vs Oxygen

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Never happen – only in dreams

          Well I haven’t looked into the new pollutions (probably should)but I know from experience with Canada’s Air Care ratings, that even the current Hydrocarbons put out by improper fuel burn (catalytic converter clogs, weak spark etc.) is responsible for smog however levels within the allowed PPM prove to actually burn off in the atmosphere as they rise. This is why the levels are restricted to a specific PPM index.

          I will assume that the same goes for other fuels being tested. As gases rise, they undergo changes in molecular structure that eventually render them harmless, if within reason.

          I’d have to go pull out all my Air Care certification tests and look for exact figures but I think you can see my point.

          What goes up , must come down. Preferably in a different, harmless form.

        • #3543025

          Hurrah for those who walk!

          by generalist ·

          In reply to Well said

          Good for you!

          Personally I don’t mind driving if there isn’t much traffic and I have to haul groceries or other supplies around. That type of driving can be minimized and combined into a single trip with multiple stops if you do things right. And planning ahead can keep said trips down to once or twice a week.

          But if the trip is a short one with enough time available and a limited amount of cargo hauling needed, I’ll walk. It provides a bit of exercise and saves on most transportation expenses. I just wish that some streets were more pedestrian friendly.

          As far as commuting is concerned, I take the bus. In the last eight years, I’ve driven all the way to work less than fifty times. And on those days that I drive to the park-and-ride, I tend to have a use for the car that makes bus riding difficult if not impossible. (i.e. classes that end after the bus system shuts down for the evening.)

          Now if we could get more people to walk, things might improve for pedestrians.

    • #3543319

      Blame it on the “Mistake on the Lake”

      by jimhm ·

      In reply to BREAKING NEWS!!!!!

      Hey – everyones been blaming Canada – then USA – the NigraMowhawk – then Canada Power –

      Hey now I seen they are blaming Cleveland – the Mistake on the Lake … Yea

      • #3543160

        Why not

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to Blame it on the “Mistake on the Lake”

        If you don’t know, point the finger. It’s the most unprofessional and ignorant way of living life but so many do it these days. I think it’s a whole, fear of fault thing. I can see why Canada has blamed it on the US, if they found out it was Canada’s fault, they’d probably invade Canada and try making us live by thier constitution.

        • #3543055

          Ya, Let’s Invade Canada!

          by mrbill- ·

          In reply to Why not

          Finally a country where the Temp is more to my liking, the beer is better and the scenery more pleasant and the enemy troops better trained (when they?re sober or aren?t high, like when?). I hope we don?t invade Canada though, not enough targets for our precision weapons. Then we would have to spend the next 20 years rebuilding them at the cost of billions of dollars Canadian, about 1500 US. But there are reports of Canada producing Molsons a potent WMD (weapon of mind distraction). Unfortunately we would loose the element of surprise as all our troops would have to stop at the duty frees for booze on the way. `:]

          Why do we have to find someone to blame, why not just fix the problem and work to make sure it will not happen again. Maybe Oz was right the, US is a bunch of lawyer packing cowboys who would rather shoot (sue) first than find a cure.

          What is Junior going to do next, erect a bunch of oil wells in Alaska (its only a nature preserve after all, nothing important) so we can build more power plants in NY (the pollution will only fall in New England, no one will care) to produce more power to distribute over infrastructure that 40-70 years old. It was not a lack of power that caused this outage, but a faulty system. A small sub station in lower PA kept this from spreading south and west, why couldn?t it have been caught sooner.

        • #3542990

          The ferries

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Ya, Let’s Invade Canada!

          “not enough targets for our precision weapons. ”
          Well thye BD Ferries are pretty big and they cruise at a whopping 9-14 knots, you MAY be able to hit one of them with your “precision weapons”, but I doubt it, maybe you should have been nice to Saddam and borrowed a few SCUDS instead. They were actually part of the list of targets for terrorism a few weeks back, the Ferry staff were quite flattered and wish to thank the US for making North America so popular for terrorism.

          As for Molson’s, you need to get up here and try some real beer. Molsons, Labatts and Kokanee aer pretty much the BEER BEERS or pussy beers for the masses. Nobody over 18 actually drinks the stuff. The most popular at local bottom feeder bars is a Molson’s product called Ricards Red, it’s Molson’s Canadian with a tonne of Caramel added. When it was first put out, the health board made such a stink that it was taken off theshelves for over a year. Apparently, like Coke, it has such a high caramel content that it was found attributable to heart disease and strokes.
          I prefer the micro breweries and Euro beers. Big Rock breweries, Guinness (mmmmmmmmmmmmm), Boddingtons etc.

          You sound like your stuck in the wrong country mrbill, you seem to see the light regarding the destruction that America has caused on itself and the rest of the world. Door’s always open if you want a beer and a game of darts.

        • #3542964

          Back when I used to drink, I liked M’s Canadian

          by mrbill- ·

          In reply to The ferries

          But I was a punk kid back then.

          Thanx for the invite, if I ever get up NW I?ll look ya up. Haven?t tossed darts in ages.

          Why would the terrorist want to attack a bunch of light-in-the-loafers guys. If we wanted to hit them it would be easy, just drop a couple Liza M CDs and pop em as they come running in. (ok so I?m not politically correct, sue me).

          Now if we are talking ships, that would be a cake walk. Don?t even need harpoon, just a couple gravities and BYE-BYE Boats. Could use a GBU-27 seeker head but that would be over-kill. Just send a Warthog to blast it with the GAU-8. 30mm will eat a boat for lunch.

          Alas I am an American thru and thru. I may not care for the decisions the Gov makes and will say so but I will defend my country to the death, I?ve taken many oaths to that effect. As a USAF Vet I stand by our ability to hit any target, sorry for any collateral damage.

        • #3542952

          Well said

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Back when I used to drink, I liked M’s Canadian

          You have a really good sense of reality, when it comes to your government. You stand for your country but don’t neccessarily agree with the decisions of your government. If they chose to send you to war you would go out of respsct for the country and your people. NOT because you think Goerge B.J. is right. I respect that completely.

          As for hitting ANY target, you read the Patriot posts right? Maybe a little overkill thinking they’ll hit any intended targets.

          But as I say, the door’s always open if you come to BC.

        • #3542923

          Wrong weapon for your target…

          by mrbill- ·

          In reply to Well said

          Using a Patriot against an incoming missile is like shooting a bb at a bowling ball in flight, ya might hit it but ya ain?t gonna stop it. Against your little boats up there I would use the GBU-27, the Stealth owns the night.

        • #3543971

          Thank you

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Well said

          I just finished arguing the point that the US told Tel Aviv that the Patriot was tested against, and successful at intercepting SCUDS.
          After targets wer ehit by SCUDS, the Tel Aviv military questioned the US’s testimony, which ended up in court.

          The US military was adamant in saying that SCUDS had been intercepted by Patriots, yet NO evidence supports the statement. Alleged ‘intercepts’ were actually found to be SCUDS breaking up as they neared the target and that the Patriot has NEVER successfully destroyed a SCUD.
          To this, the US military side stepped and said, “it depends how you define ‘intercept'” What they meant was that the Patriot had crossed paths or at least matched the tradjectory of the SCUD, not actually hit one.
          This poor communication was responsible for killing Israeli soldiers as well as destroying an American bunker in teh Gulf. Too bad they were reassured that the Patriot was successful at M-M intercepting and not told that INTERCEPT didn’t mean STOP.

          So, fly one of those pretty black V’s over here. They seem noce and quiet and they can’t bring too many people with them. Just don’t bomb the Nanaimo to Horseshoe Bay ferry, I use that to get back and forth to the mainland.

        • #3543869

          Reply To: BREAKING NEWS!!!!!

          by mrbill- ·

          In reply to Well said

          Ok we’ll leave the boats alone.

          Like I said in the other thread, it was not the US command, the Patriots, or Papa Bush who was responsible for the SCUDs killing anyone. It was Iraq who luanched the missiles, It was Iraq who invaded Kuwait, it was Iraq who was the aggressor! If the coalition had had the guts back then how many thousands of Iraqi citzens would be alive today and not have been gased by Saddam.

        • #3543803

          Call them Beers!?

          by lumberjack ·

          In reply to The ferries

          Come on Oz – I seem to recall your from UK originally, dont you miss Theakston Old Peculiar?
          Bishop’s Finger (aka Nun’s Delight!); Huntsman’s Tally Ho!; Ol’ Speckled Hen; Brain’s Skull Attack
          Wadworths 6X; Weston’s Willie Warmer
          or some more local beers – Offyatrolley to name but a few. These are what Beers are supposed to be – not those for the lout’s lagers.

          I spent many a good evening while I worked for the NAAFI on HMS Nelson, Portsmouth introducing US, Canadian and any other non uk sailor to the delights of Real Ales (esp Gales Breweries.

        • #3543720

          And you could for me too

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Call them Beers!?

          I haven’t been to England in a year or so, other than a quick stopover while on route to the Wacken festival in Germany.

          I miss Englands brew’s, I’m from the Isle of Wight, HOME OF THE PUB! I was born on the kitchen table in my dad’s pub, I live for British beer.

          BUT.I am in the process of building a website for my local here and the are known for thier beers, unfortunately it is limited to Guinness and Boddingtons on tap. The odd harps in a bottle, and a few others as the season supplies.

          You have to hang on to these things you know, “you’ll get what you’re given and you’ll bloody well like it.” Oh no, flashback.

          OM 🙂

      • #3543152

        First Energy

        by thechas ·

        In reply to Blame it on the “Mistake on the Lake”

        While only geographically related to Cleveland, at this moment, the scapegoat looks to be First Energy Corp.

        Aside from owning the failed power lines, they are already facing a number of financial and regulatory issues.

        Better to drive 1 ailing company into the ground so that some other firms can pick up the pieces on the cheap.


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