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by maxwell edison

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As many of you may or may not know, accuracy in reporting is one of my pet peeves. (This includes "reporting" of any kind, from any and all sources, including an individual. A false premise, I've often said, equals a flawed conclusion and/or a poor decision.)

The Pew Research Center, which I consider one of the more reputable organizations that measure public opinion and behavior, has reported something that is, if you think about it, rather sad. 20 percent of young adults in America, the report says, learn their political campaign news from late night television shows such as the Tonight Show with Jay Leno, The Late Show with David Letterman, Saturday Night Live, The Daily Show, and others. Man oh man, talk about an uninformed electorate. One-fifth of the voting public cast their votes based on comedy and satire! I find that incredible. I find that disturbing.

Another 20 percent gathered their "news" from the Internet. The Internet can certainly be a source for credible information, to be sure, but it can also be a source for the absolute worst misinformation.

Nightly network news was named as a regular source of campaign news by 35 percent, newspapers by 31 percent, and 38 percent said cable news networks was a source for political campaign information.

Obviously there are overlaps in sources, which is understandable, since many people, myself included, use a myriad of sources to gather information and as a way to (hopefully) weed out misinformation.

But the article concludes as follows:

"Young adults were far more likely than those over age 50 to say they regularly learned something from comedy TV shows ? by 21 percent to 3 percent. In general, Americans are poorly informed on specific information about the campaign. Those who regularly learn about the campaigns from entertainment shows were even less informed."

They "learned something from comedy TV shows"? Comedy TV shows?????? Sad, very sad indeed.

What do you think? What are your sources? Do you think the Internet is more a source of information or misinformation? Do you even consider the "comedy" shows at all? How many try to find the necessary "balance"?

52 replies

by tomsal

Hey Max, as usual I enjoy another one of your posts. I think the key to getting accurate information is the most obvious -- never rely on just one source.

I'm a very cynical person, so trust me I *NEVER* rely on one source for news. The only time I stray from this rule is with news told to me from someone I trust very dearly, and believe me...no one earns my trust easily so there are few in this world that fall into that category.

The Internet is good, but like you said you need to be careful because its also the world's largest pile of BS. For a REALLY good example of this (and a good laugh) go into some of these chat programs on the net and listen to what folks say...its really quite amusing how everyone is a "know-it-all" on those things.

Its quite nerve wracking for me though...because I HATE MISINFORMATION so I about glow red sometimes trying to not freak. lol

Especially don't you like when someone is telling you a load of BS that you KNOW is so not true....makes my head want to pop like a zit. lol

;)

later.

PS. Daily Show rules..lol

by john_wills

During the 1960s and 1970s people on both sides regarding the Vietnam War based their understanding of the war on one of two motives which were frequently repeated, i.e. apparenly not just from one source. However, I remember the begining of the war, and I have consulted contemporary documents to confirm my memories, and neither of the two popular theories corresponded with reality. The trick here was that I paid attention when the war was declared, so that when the various justifications later came up I knew they were recent inventions. But lots of people seem to have been deceived.

by maxwell edison

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When you said, "The trick here was that I paid attention when the war was declared...." Were you still talking about the Vietnam war, or did you shift gears to the present Iraq war?

by jkaras

As usual Max you bring good topics and information. Many of your postings has either changed my perspective or made me conside wisdom from an opposing view not looking at all sides previously. So dont take this the wrong way but...

Almost all of your postings are links to published articles to prove your point of view. Yes I do understand that facts need to support what your saying but information is printed from the ability to generate money, pure and simple. It is not about reporting the truth since they never take the responsibility to print PROPER retractions of false reporting. Everything is sensationalized to sell the info to generate money from either advertising or book sales. Celebrities/sports figures/politicians all use publicists, brain trusts, spin doctors, and leak information for disinformation to sway opinion of said individual. The commercials that politicians promote are mud slinging to discredit the competition rather than educate the masses of why they are not qualified or good enough to do the job. Information of said offical not showing up to voting or misapproriation of funds is fine to make a learned decision, not dirty laundry. Everything is a lie and they change their stance to generate the most votes due to polls, interviews are scripted so it insults the people they are trying to sway. Why anyone watches talk shows is beyond me? They should be called scripted lies and plugs for their worthless projects. I pay plenty of good money when I buy a ticket for entertainment not when I want information about someone.Why would you want to trust someone who is kissing your ass or selling you a line, wheres the integrity? Truth is we want to have the best liar or the best comeback artist. If a candidate takes the high road we see them as weak and dont vote for them, why? Everytime you check out at the grocery story we are bombarded by rag magazines of lies and multiple interviews of the same individual in many different magazines that contradict what either happened or what they believe in due to the target audience of the periodical.

Sorry for the long winded cynical paragraphs but if were going to pay attention we might as well be entertained when being lied to. Just look at the "reality tv" boom. People believe that it is all real despite the shows creators or hosts admitting that they reshoot incidents to get the best shot and that they are somewhat scripted. The latest lie is the marriage show with the fat guy. How in the helll can the family pretend that they dont know its make believe while their is a camera crew documenting a few day relationship into marraige? Either they are the most clueless individuals or what? we a re the cattle that our society created. Can I get a "MOO" from the congregation?

by maecuff

Is a joke anyway...how often is a group of people deposited on a island, forced to create tribes and vote each other off their island? How often does an ordinary person get offered $50,000 for eating pig rectums? I am amazed at how closely people follow these programs.. and don't even start on the who wants to marry a _____ fill in the blank. It's embarrassing for all of us.

by oz_media

I say take 12 people and drop them off at different parts of an island or even different islands. Give them a panic button to push when they've had enough and see who 'survives'.

There's a reality show. It is well known that MANY of the situations on survivor are rescripted events that happen but just aren't TV friendly enough untile they have the correct lighting, memebers involved etc. to play the story line.

Like you said, that's not reality.
Who wants to marry a ... should be Who wants to be humiliated in television.

Yes, maecuff, quite a farce and yet some people will plan their lives around these shows so as not to miss it.

there were some late night talk show jokes about politics the other night, I think that these shows are where people get some ideas from.

I think it was Leno : Bush is planning a trip to the moon. In order to ensure they hit their target landing area, he will wait until a full moon.

Then: Clinton has been seen walking arounfd the white house wearing panties on his arm. When asked why, he said he was trying to quit.

These are political jokes that some will read as statements about someone's ability to rule America. "Hey if everyone is laughing at ... why would I vote for him and become a public joke?"

I've also noticed that they picked on Al Gore quite heavily no MOST of these shows at election time, VERY little about GWB at that time.

Gore lost the election. Hmmmmm.

Personally I have NO opinion whatsoever on Gore's abilities or inabilities, I have not followed his political past and only see fault in Bush as a result of his actions in office. I had no previous thougts toward his (in)abilities.

I think too many people are easily swayed by TV politics.

by cactus pete

I'm sure it's just quick typing, and I'm relatively sure I get your intended meaning, but:

"20 percent of young adults in America" followed by "One-fifth of the voting public" just isn't accurate.

20% of young adults is, I hope, significantly less than 1/5 of the voting public.

by maxwell edison

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And very correct.

(And rather ironic, if you think about it.)

I read too fast and assimilated the information incorrectly. Such a gaffe can only be explained by suggesting that I wrote that before my first cup of coffee this morning.

But the gist of the issue is the same. (Isn't it??)

by cactus pete

This is how inaccuracies happen. And the points of others', too, that even when you go to sevceral sources, your info can be, well, let's not say wrong, but at least inconsistent.

But yes, I think I know you well enough to understand your point - and who couldn't agree with it?

Now, as to whether or not it is, as you said, sad to get info from a comedy show - therein lies irony.

by cactus pete

One should get a good percentage of input from the comedy shows [late night, what ever] as well. If you don't understand the issue enough to poke fun at it, you don't understand the issue enough. [Or at least get offended when someone else pokes fun, I suppose.]

But I must say, I hope it's not the first and only place you hear your news...

by mrafrohead

I'm trying to be serious here. I'm not trying to make a joke, so please try to take me serious.

Why does it really matter where we get out informatin from?

Reason is this: From what I have seen, our votes don't count anyway, so it doesn't really matter what monkey you vote for. Or what referendum you vote on.

Why I say this is: Comedy shows, yes they probably aren't the best source to get your information from, but when the election/voting is nothing but a joke anyway, isn't it rather fitting?

I have voted for 7 years, since I was 18. Our votes have been overturned by our state officials and even government officials SO many times, that I just don't see the point in it. Our voice makes no difference. The buttmonkeys in office WILL get what they want. Regardless of what the people say.

If anyone thinks that I am just talking nonsense, please look up Tim Eiman - WA State on the internet and see what I am talking about.

Most of his initiatives have passed, but out state cried about it and just overturned it. There's something for starters.

Please let me know what you think of this, I'm curious. Most people think I make no sense on this topic, but again, this is my first hand experience.

Mrafrohead - an unregistered voter

by maxwell edison

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You asked, "Why does it really matter where we get out information from?" Well, consider this. Remember back to when we were kids and we watched those cartoons where a little guy (a conscience, a devil, whatever) was standing on some cartoon character's shoulder whispering in his ear what to do or what to think? Often times, a counter-part would appear on the other shoulder and whisper a different message in the other ear? What if you only listened to one of those guys? Borrowing a line from Paul Harvey, what's the rest of the story? There's more to a story, any story, than just the punch line of a Jay Leno joke. I often wonder how much those folks (the comedians) have contributed to our current environment of voter apathy. What ever happened to the great comedians who could come up with a joke that wasn't detrimental to the reputation of someone else. (Did you know that Dan Quayle, for instance, in reality, is a very very smart person?) Bob Hope, Milton Bearle, Red Skelton, Lucille Ball, Jackie Gleason, Art Carney, and all the classic comedians who could cut a joke on themselves or something that harmed no one. Where have all the great ones gone?

The wave of voter initiatives and referendums is a relatively recent development. California, Oregon, Washington, and my own home state of Colorado are, from what I understand, leading the way in the number of these issues put on the ballots. On one hand, it puts the particular issues in the hands of the voters themselves. But on the other hand, it contradicts the notion and design of representative government. It's no wonder that there's a lot of confusion and complaints about many of them. There are cases, especially in California, where a voter referendum that passed is in direct conflict with an existing law or State Constitutional provision. But you know what, these things get on the ballots one signature (one vote) at a time. Have you ever signed one of those petitions on your way into a grocery store? (If you did it didn't count, since you're not a registered voter.) Sure, the sales pitch might sound reasonable, but what a can of worms it might open up. They have, in some cases, made a mess of things in California, and they've caused unintended consequences in other states. But since they've become more popular, especially in your very own state, it just shows the importance of being a well informed and involved voter. We have a Tim Eyman in our state too. His name is Douglas Bruce. I'm not sure what to think of these types of things yet, but I do know one thing. By practicing apathy instead of involvement, you're letting someone else make all the rules. And if you're not a registered and active voter, you're letting the Tim Eyman's of the world make the all the rules. Is that what you really want?

You said that you don't vote because you don't think your vote will count. Well, if around 500 like-minded people in Florida had voted in November 2000 instead of letting their apathy keep them home, we might be arguing why President Gore hasn't done anything to counter the 9-11 attacks on America, and Saddam Hussein would still be murdering Iraqi citizens whose family members didn't fall in line with his regime. A measly 500 additional people voting for Al Gore in Florida would have literally changed the course of history, there's no doubt about it. So yes, your vote DOES matter. Moreover, for the sake of discussion, substitute the word vote with a synonymous phrase such as "express my opinion". If you don't express your opinion, you're right, it will never be heard - NEVER. If you DO "express your opinion", even though it might not always make a difference in the bigger scheme of things (with the emphasis on "might not"), in some cases it just might be heard, and in some cases it just might be the single voice that makes the difference. One snowflake does not make a blizzard, but a blizzard is always made up of single snowflakes. Whether or not it's heard isn't the point. Weather or not it's acted upon isn't what matters. Would you rather have your vote not count, or have someone else's vote count for you? Don't let apathy win. Don't let apathy keep your opinion stifled. Stand up and put yourself in a position to be heard, or lie down and be subjected to the whims of others.

You said that it doesn't matter what monkey you vote for. Well, every once in a while our "monkeys" are able to evolve into something bigger and better. Besides, I'd rather have my monkey who may be at least somewhat prone to my way of thinking, than someone else's monkey who is prone to throwing his poop on me.

You said, "Comedy shows, yes they probably aren't the best source to get your information from, but when the election/voting is nothing but a joke anyway, isn't it rather fitting?"

I was expecting an "elections are a joke" message, so you didn't disappoint. But again, if elections are a joke, at least your vote may allow you to write your own punch line.

by oz_media

Completely off topic, probably best in my case, your reference to Bob Hope.

He is one person who as you said could laugh at himself, being a former stint comedian myself, I think the best laughs are the ones when you laugh at yourself. If you don't think you are a joke or see humor in things you do, how can you enjoy the life you live? I spend everyday with myself, I don't just visit me when I choose. Why would I want to hang out with a straightman all day?

God bless Bob Hope, who has done so much for so many people, he will never be forgotten as one of my favorite British-American comedians, although his humour was VERY 'Americanized' (no dry European wit) his timing an sense of self humor was truly European, th eocmbination was unforgettable.

He was great support for the troops, he was great support for the wives and families at home, he was just great support for humanity.

Often we hear about comedians being really strict finiky a-holes away from the camera, such as Bill Cosby who apparently has left quite a sordid life or hatred and abuse according to those who knew him personally. I don't ever remember hearing such things about Bob, he was just happy and supportive to ANYONE he was around, a true human being who will be missed dearly.

Sorry, but I hold him with much esteem, your reference got me thinking about the laughs and comedic influence he's given me.

by jkaras

Max,
I do get your point on voting but you fail to understand why there is apathy. When you grew up everyone believed that politicians stood for somethimg and that your vote participated in the evolution of your country. That your voice was heard and represented. That was then when the vision of America worked, where anyone who is law abiding could afford a home, a car, put away for tomorrow regardless of the job you did. There was a belief of integrity of the people that made the decisions. This was before the world of credit.

Our world today is run by credit, money doesnt go far requiring you to run into debt to survive. The politicians get majority of their money from wealthy special interests that they owe their ascension to, look at Enron. Do you think for one instant that they are out of jail due to great lawyers, or due to owed favors from who's in charge? If you or I , johnny_nobody stole twenty bucks from someone we get our day in court to face the music REAL quick, have they seen any justice? What should the gen x'ers, the twenty somethings, and the thirty somethings believe in? Politicians have been lying to the public for votes not for change. Regardless of Republican or Democrat these so called capable leaders dont show up to voting for bills, meet clandestinely in locations to work deals rather in their offices as required, get caught up in money laundering scandals, drug scandals, arms scandals, sex scandals, wars over money/oil/testing their new toys/keeping in office so people dont vote for the opposition while at war and we are supposed to look up to these people? We see the world controlled by money not by the ideals that this country was founded on.

There are millions of hard working people that dutifly go to work pumping life into this country and they are repaid by over privledged politicans who crap on its people by not doing their job. Anyone of us would be fired in a heartbeat for not making a difference at our jobs, yet they get a pass as well as a celebrity lifestyle. When these big corporations cheat or layoff their employees that made them successful where is the government to protect it's people? I admit it is my/everyones responsibility to make it on their own to create a better life but all my hardwork doesnt mean anything when I get laid off so the company can boost profits and give the upper crust a raise for their "genious" plan to save the company. People in power havent respected nor appreciated who makes them and the anger and the apathy is the proof. PLay by the rules and get screwed, screw others and watch how far you go, thats a great lesson to teach the youth, help others till their is risk to you and then wash your hands (not my problem). Sorry for the rant but this is the world through a younger perspective who desires a decent car, home in a nice neighborhood, and a job to work. Thats all we want but we cant afford that life without debt that we will never be free from.

Lastly the comedians were some of the greatest that you mentioned. They were at a different time and doubt that they would still use the same humor in todays world. They also got the scare from Mc Carthyism that told them if they spoke out against the government they would be blacked balled as subversive communists. they would never dream of taking that risk. Gleason however, towards his remaining days made movies that pointed out bigotry and marrital issues that all was not well and I gained even more respect for him as an entertainer because of it. Do you think Carlin is a bad comedian for pointing out flaws in our society or a bad thing? Whether you like or dislike his humor it is the brutal honesty of whats going on and to question not fall in line like yesteryears mentality. He at least speaks honestly, which our government and bosses should do.

by mrafrohead

Maxwell,

I don't think that I typed what I wanted to quite right.

What I am saying is this. We voters vote on something. It's approved. The "government" decides that they don't like it, so they overturn it. Even though the people said, this is what we want. They give US the finger and do what THEY want.

That is my experience.

So with that as an example, why waste the time to vote?

It's happened, I think four times to me and all other voters that voted on our Initiatives.

So ultimately, the people speak, majority rules, but it counts for nothing. So why should we waste our time?

And I'm not being challenging on this to be an asshole, but I'm trying to learn, so please reply.

I understand that the way of our country is that we voice our opinion, majority rules and from that majority, law is made.

Well here, it seems to me, we are returning back to the ways of old England. The king says this, so screw the people and that's that. I recall us leaving there and having a big ol war because of it. So I KNOW that it's a big deal, but those in authority don't seem to think so. They need their fancy offices and expensive cars on our dime, but don't want to invest our money where we vote them to or how we vote them to.

In all honesty, I found it insulting that my voice was taken away from me when they cancelled our votes. That was MY voice on that stupid little card, and it was taken away. Along with every other person in this state. And they have done it more than once, which shows it was no accident.

So, please enlighten me. Everyone I know thinks that I'm stupid for my way of thinking on this topic, but I keep thinking of this thing I read once. Spite me once, shame on you. Spite me twice, shame on me. Or something like that...

mrafrohead

by mrafrohead

"I was expecting an "elections are a joke" message, so you didn't disappoint. But again, if elections are a joke, at least your vote may allow you to write your own punch line."

I don't quite know how to respond to this. I was going to ignore it, but the more I think about it, it's really turning my freakin guts inside out. These are fighting words!

First off, I know you all think I'm a joke here. Hence the reason I started the thread off with a note, that I'm being serious. No screwing around, dead serious.

I am sharing my experience in life with voting. Then posing the question, why continue to get burned?

Just because I make light of most things, and my opinion may be different than just about everyone else's doesn't mean it's wrong. Maybe I just see it in a different light.

My point, I stated I was being serious, and I don't appreciate being mocked.

But while you're at it, here's something else you can make a joke of.

Your idea of America is dying. It is being sold to the lowest bidder, and we are all being played as fools because we are allowing it to happen. Unfortunately, the cowards of this country would never do what it takes to fix the problem and only one person can do nothing.

I love what this country was founded on. But where we are now, is no where in the ballpark of where we started. The duel that you mentioned earlier, that is honorable. Not how it's done now with digging dirt on your opponent and showing it to the world, or lying or cheating or stealing. All what our government does very well. Piss on us, they'd rather spend their time and money taking care of all of the other countries first, so we at least have a nice image. While our own are dying on the streets, and have no options.

Greed has bought this country, and we are all falling with it. The only way I can think of to fix it is to completely start over.

But what do I know, I'm just an uneducated, ignorant computer nerd that should be locked up in an institution for my crazy ways of thinking.

All I know for sure, is when I think of where we are heading, and where we are at, it doesn't "feel" right. This isn't what was intended for us. We have been sold, but no one is willing to open their eyes and see it.

Mrafrohead

by thechas

In my opinion, if you choose not to vote in an election, you have no right to complain about the outcome. Or, about any bad decisions that the winner makes.

As to problems with initiatives, the US is a democracy not a plurality.

Yes, when a vote is taken, majority rules.
However, in a democracy, we have checks and balances.
Initiatives are struck down by the courts because they are bad laws that violate the state or federal constitution.
Just because an idea is popular, does not make it good or just.

It would be nice to get back to a time when our elected leaders were true public servants. With the cost of campaigning, the successful politician is the one who can raise the most money.

Chas

by mrafrohead

I have forfeit my right to complain about the elected officials and their decisions. Except for those still in office while I voted. I can still whine about them ;)

But that isn't what I'm complaining about. I'm complaining about them taking away our voice. They stole it from us.

"However, in a democracy, we have checks and balances.
Initiatives are struck down by the courts because they are bad laws that violate the state or federal constitution.
Just because an idea is popular, does not make it good or just."

This is where I have problem. There is a process that you have to go through to get your initiative on a ballot. I has to be approved. So how can they approve it and THEN say it's unconstitutional. If it was so wrong, they SHOULD NOT have approved it in the first place. They are reneging on what they said.

As for the idea being good or just, that's what goes in with the vote. If we vote in a bad decision, we need to live with it. The government, can't just come in and say too bad, so sad and just overturn what we say! They are here to do our bidding. Not the other way around. They volunteer for that position. But that isn't how they act when voted in. All of the sudden they think they're gods or something and can do what they want, and when they want it. Where we, the people that elected them in office, no longer count. They do what they please.

That's why I don't vote anymore. If I don't vote and they don't do what we voted in, then I can't bitch about it anymore. Because then it doesn't matter, as I didn't waste my voice. The government will just what they want anyhow, they just want out money...

Mrafrohead

by thechas

Max,

This research just proves what I have been noticing over the past 20 plus years.

The general population in the USA prefers to be entertained rather than informed.

This trend accelerated a number of years ago when the FCC watered down the public service aspect for radio and TV station licenses.

In my youth, between the hours of 6 PM and 7 PM, the ONLY show on ANY TV channel was the nightly news. Even the radio stations had extended news content at 6 PM.

Now, with virtually all media outlets owned by large entertainment conglomerates, the goal is no longer to report the news, but to capture market share for the time slot.
The "news" is tailored to attract the target audience that will generate the most advertising revenue.

I myself am very scared by some of the get out the vote campaigns that are going on.
Should they succeed, most of the new voters will be voting for the candidate that looks the best, or entertains them the most.

Better we should add a test to see if the potential voter has any knowledge of basic local, state, national, and world events.

Chas

by mrbill-

I get all my political, social and world news from a voice inside my head named Bubba. Bubba knows all and see all so he is the best source I could find. With the current state of print, broadcast and internet misinformation I think Bubba wins hands down. Also if he tells me something I disagree with I tell him and he changes it. Sorta like the outside sources sometimes do. Now sometimes Bubba does get something wrong. When that happens I put my hands over my ears and just start yelling LALALALALALALALALA... It works for me, but I get the weirdist looks from people around me, especially if I'm on the Interstate.

by thechas

Actually, the only "reliable" source is to be an actual witness to the events of the days news.

You won't get the behind the scenes information.
But, you will get a report that is only impacted by your personal biases.

Thanks for the humor though.

Chas

by tomsal

...glad I'm not alone. LOL!

I just hate when Bubba has other friends over at the same time...never know who to listen too.. ;)

Especially his friend Damian, mean little bstrd he is....

by oz_media

I have to see two things here. One, you were previously right, I was wrong. Two, I may have a point that you've failed to see.

1) You stated ot as many people are politically savvuy as I claimed, your numbers prove that. I still believe they WNAT to be politivally savvy or try to SOUND so. Perhaps resulting in people just following someone else's opinion without research (sheep?)too bad i can't use 5pt font for that remark.

2) I have often said that Americans are ignorant to the rest of the world as they only see a very limioted viewpoint and don't really accept or want to learn abour others (France, England Germany Canada)as it is not american and therefore not pat of thier world.
Not being informed is being ignorant (not stupid) just unaware of reality due to unexposure.

I don't want to start a feud again, so I'll ley it to rest here. I just thought that your post raised some thoughts I've had and perhaps explains why I feel this way, not that Americans aer all supid, just that the general public is ignorant due to lack of knowledge.

by hal 9000

I could say that Politics is a Comedy as we get broadcasts here of either the House of Representitives and the Senate on the very rare occasions that these places are sitting.

When these are broadcast I can honestly say I've seen better behaviour in a preschool sandpit than what I see in our elected officials. Perhaps if you're Congress etc where televised more people would have a better idea of what actually goes on in Government but then again you would first have to get them interested enough to watch the broadcast.

Most people prefer shows like Rubbery Faces which was shown in both Britian and Aussie and stared our current pollies with all their little fobiles and you could just laugh at them but unfortantly as these people are making the decissions on how a country is run it is more like a "Horror Movie" than a "Comedy"

Col

by john_wills

I was talking about the Vietnam War: I remember reading about it in my parents' newspaper in 1956, and I saw occasional references to it in various publications before it became a hot topic in the U.S.

by r3d

I refer to the old saying, "...if everyone called you a bucket, well, then you're a bucket!". Even if everyone thought that a certain person was an ideal candidate, and this seldom happens at all, we have no clue as to what that person is really like inside. We can't read that person's mind and see, "OMG, he really wants to destroy all humanity and take possesion of the world! But he seems so niiiice". To quote forrest, "life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get". You may just get a fruit filled nut bar bent on total destruction hidden inside a candie shell. lol... The sad truth is that it is all a big joke. Even to think that the person you choose is doing all the work himself. What? You don't see the puppet strings attached to his back? There are greater forces at work here, ones which I would like to avoid. This is not a rant, nor am I a whacko myself, but to think that the person that you idolize for a political position is doing everything the way you think it should/will be done, is ludicrous. 99.5% (just a guess, but probably not far of the mark) of politicians are self serving and egotistical even if they don't show it. I will never trust a politician or any promise made by one, IE. - "no new taxes!"... roflmao... I was laughing out loud when this was said, and people around me thought I was nuts and that he wouldn't raise taxes. Now THAT was a joke! Also, I don't expect anyone to agree with me on this since this is just another opinion, and like A-holes, everyone has one and they all stink... or have a burr up it... If joe blow votes for joe shmoe because he saw him on The Late Show, well, I doubt if it would realy make a big difference in the scheme of things anyways...

Arnold for Governor!!! oh wait, he is... gotta laugh, and hope he does better than the other idiots...

-E

by maxwell edison

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jkaras, yours is a great message, and it brings up some excellent questions. If I may, I'd like to address them one at a time.

You said, "I do get your point on voting but you (I) fail to understand why there is apathy." Well, with all due respect, there's apathy because people choose to be apathetic, no more, no less. Moreover, if there really is the lack of integrity in our elected representatives, as you suggest there is (and I'm not necessarily agreeing with that notion), do you think that those in power would rather have an apathetic electorate or an involved one? By being apathetic, you're giving them what you suggest they want. Why would you want to do that? There's the old saying, I'll believe it when I see it. However, in many cases, the reverse is true, and instead, you'll see it when you believe it. If you believe that you are powerless against "the system", well guess what? You'll be powerless, no question about it. But if you really believe that one voice can indeed make a difference, especially if you consider that one voice plus one more voice plus one more voice, etc. can indeed "add up", then you have a much better chance of making that difference. Another old saying, whether you think you can or can't, you'll probably be right.

You said that things were different when I grew up. (I'm not THAT ancient, you know.) There's really no difference between the time I grew up and now. I was 7 years old, for example, when the John F. Kennedy campaign allegedly bought union votes in West Virginia, received votes from dead people in Illinois, participated in voter fraud in Texas, and benefited from electoral irregularities in Alabama, and as a result, barely won those four states by the thinnest of electoral margins. (Note: I said "alleged", even though there's more evidence to suggest voter irregularities in 1960 than there were forty years later.) Moreover, these things resulted in a very questionable assigning of both the popular votes and the electoral votes. The absence of any one of these questionable irregularities would have swung the election the other way. The final margin of victory in 1960 averaged only one vote per precinct nationwide. Does this all sound familiar? The only difference between then and now is that Al Gore challenged similar things in court (and ultimately lost his court challenge), whereas Richard Nixon, in 1960, conceded gracefully.

In addition to the 1960 election, political scandals are as old as politics itself. In fact, in many ways, the scandals of today pale in comparison to those of yesteryear. In 1800, for example, the presidential election between Thomas Jefferson and Aaron Burr ended in a literal dead-heat. Alexander Hamilton persuaded the House of Representatives to name Burr Vice President while giving the Presidency to Jefferson. What eventually resulted was a dual of honor between Burr and Hamilton - yes, a real dual. The gun Hamilton used was fired but missed Burr. It has been proposed that Hamilton tried to gain an edge by using a gun with a hair-like trigger. If this is so, then he was either not ready, was nervous, missed on purpose, or was merely a bad shot. Burr took advantage of the miss, and shot Hamilton. This action ended Aaron Burr's political career, to be sure, but it ended Alexander Hamilton's life.

Fast forward fifty years to the uncivil war years, a political war to be sure. Fast forward another twenty years. President Grant's administration was plagued with scandal, bribes and pay-offs, all unbeknownst to President Grant. Fast forward another 50 years to the Warren Harding administration and the teapot dome scandal, a scandal about, of all things, OIL. Jump forward another couple of decades, and you'll see President Roosevelt trying to pack the Supreme Court. I suppose I did overlook some of the less colorful scandals, some alleged, some real, in almost all of the administrations in-between.

More on the rest of you message later.......

by jkaras

you school me with your political savy and history. I do agree that apathy is a choice to not care/participate, I wont argue. My point for posting the tone of the youth is to point out that lies and corruption while its been happening since the dawn of time is getting out of hand. Todays world is far more complicated then a few decades ago with social, economic,education and technology. Everyone's attitude today is "what's in it for me?" Or "I'm lookin out for numero uno" Politicans to me are not passing legislation due to poorly written amendments etc.. but more due to which party will get the credit that will swing voters to the other party, so stagnation no investment in its people more of other countries.

These people accept and beg for an opprotunity to participate in creating a better tomorrow like a doctor, policeman, or priest. UNfortunately there are some bad apples that choose their vocation for the wrong reasons. Most people that I know understand that ratio of bad vs. good but it is getting out of hand that politicans are more bad then good. To me they are traitorist by making decisions based on votes for them or their party and not whats best for the country. They are a servant of the people and we the people give them power, they just are not using it properly. We can only choose not to vote for said person. Everytime we vote for the lesser of two evils we tell them go ahead continue to screw us over. To me by not voting we as a people united show them we mean business and that we will not stand for it any longer. It's our only equalizer. I would vote for any politican that said I screwed up and I'm ready to make good just give me a chance. I voted only once when I turned 18, unfortunately it was only a local election since there wasnt a presidential election. I did it because many died for that right and many countries dont have that right that was given to me through blood. I appreciate all that died or served regardless of the level of participation for that right and out of respect I excercised that right, but I didnt see anyone that said to me I'll make a difference. I feel it is disrespectful and counter productive to merly vote for someone who doesnt want to make a difference just so I can have the right to complain. In my opinion most vote merly due to monetary issues like taxes and not because this is the best person. My proof? Registered voters as either Republican or Democrat. If it is about the best person why take sides before you know the candidate? ("I'm a republican or I'm a Democrat")We are devolving as a society rather that evolving. (personal opinion mind you)

Politicans only give the smoke screen that they are for/against abortion, death penalty, yadda yadda to ease people's decision that they are voting about how they will be taxed. Even the Athiest president discussion rather disturbed me that it was personal belief vs. the right person for the job. Why is it that gov contracts always get bidded by ex cronies or ex companies of said offical? were the decisions made for the purpose of making money for the assisting in the election? Trust me I want to participate and make a difference and just because I dont vote doesnt diminsh the right to voice my discern for todays problems. If I voted for the other guy that didnt get elected do I still get to complain since I didnt put him into power? Does my taxes not count if so then am I exempt? that argument to me is a weak as todays excuses why the world cant change. Change today is far more apathetic then any voting, since very few people make an attempt.

By the way sorry for implying that you were ancient, being 33 hanging around with my friends that are younger they refer to me as the "fossil" among other nicknames. I seem to remember a previous posting that I inferred that you were my senior, as well as your informed postings that show wisdom making me assume your age. (yeah yeah assume where does that get you, lol)

by mrafrohead

"But if you really believe that one voice can indeed make a difference, especially if you consider that one voice plus one more voice plus one more voice, etc. can indeed "add up", then you have a much better chance of making that difference."

I agree with that right down to the last letter. But what I'm trying to say is that's not how it works. When majority rules, because of just one vote, that's great. But then the government says, piss on you all, and does the opposite of what majority ruled, that teaches me that they will do what they want regardless of us and our voices. We are just the joksters that pay our hard earned money to them in the form of their "taxes".

I bust my ass, for 12 measley dollars an hour, for them to tax the crap out of it. Then they have the gall to ask my opinion. When myself and all others answer, they say great. You wanted this? Well we're going to give you the opposite instead because it better suits them. Then they take our taxes, and DONT spend it on schools or safety like we voted and buy themselves new cars, or another house. Refurnish their offices that were just redone 6 months earlier.

So what is the point. They spit on us, why should we even humor them? There is no honesty or integrity in our government anymore. They do what they want, when they want and how they want. We have NO say. Signing your name on a card and punching the little holes are meaningless. It's just a ruse to make the peasants "feel" important, but the weight of it is no more than air.

I trust an upfront thief more than I trust my own government. At least the thief isn't lying that he is what he is. Whereas our government is trying to hide it.

Mrafrohead

by maxwell edison

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Let me go out on a limb here and suggest that you and I are more alike than we are different. I'm not any smarter than you, nor was I born into privilege. I certainly don't have the level of education many others do, as I suppose you don't either. I learned more in the school of hard-knocks that I learned behind the doors of any college. When I left my parent's home and found myself out on my own (at 17) I was as dumb as dirt, I was dirt poor, and I had no idea where life would take me. But as experience quickly became my best teacher, I realized that remaining on the dirt road was a matter of choice. I've worked for everything I've gained, and the only thing ever given to me was the air I breath and the free-will in which I believe. Why is it that we see things so differently? Why is it that out results and outlook are apparently so different? I think the answer to the second question can be found in the premise of the first.

It's been said that with freedom, comes responsibility. If you want to delegate responsibility to others, then by default, you give up some of your individual freedom in the process. When it comes to credit or anything else, your freedom to choose will determine your outcome. If people find themselves with overwhelming debt, then they've made the wrong choice. Life is no more than a series of choices. If you accept the hand you were dealt, which only makes sense, since you can't do anything about it anyway, and make the right choices, but choices which are based on your desire to reach a distant and self-determined destination, then the results will, most likely, be quite satisfying. You are what you think about; you'll become the person you think you will be; and your outcome will be surprisingly identical to the expectations you place on yourself. (No, it's not easy. I have to remind myself every day.)

You mentioned your admiration for Jackie Gleason, another area where you and I are alike. He was not only a great comedian, but a great actor (the best as Minnesota Fats), and a great musician as well. He came from poor and humble beginnings, and struggled with the hand he was dealt in life. But do you think that Jackie Gleason was apathetic? Do you think that Jackie Gleason had a defeatist attitude? Or do you think that Jackie Gleason created the very outcome that he dreamed for himself? Jackie Gleason understood that whatever happens on the outside of you doesn't matter as much as what happens on the inside of you. And that's the beauty of America. Regardless of what you want it to be, it's a self-fulfilling and self-determined destination. Unless, of course, you believe otherwise. Either way, you'll be right.

If you have it, and you know you have it, you have it. If you don't have it and think you have it, you have it. But if you have it and don't know you have it, you don't have it.
-Jackie Gleason

If I could make one suggestion to you, and I mean this with the best of intentions. Read about Jackie Gleason. Read about Bob Hope. Heck, read about Tiger Woods. And it doesn't just have to be about celebrities. Read about Henry Ford and Andrew Carnegie. Read about all the people who were dealt a lemon in life, but found a way to make lemonade. Use these people as a source of inspiration so that you can find the same things in yourself. You'll be amazed at how the thing outside of you appear to be different, when you start seeing the things inside of you differently.

Free-will, self-determination, and America. How sweet it is!

by jkaras

to eachother's posts. I do feel that we are very simular individuals that want what everyone wants in life, happiness and to be apart of this world that some how some way we made it a better place. We will always have some issues that differ but I gain better understanding viewing these posts from you as well as others and dont hold any grudges on difference only if bigoted. I completely agree that life is defined through responsibility and your acceptance of that responsibility regardless of it's magnitude, large or small. I choose to make something of my self or choose not to, that's my cross to bare , not anyone's else regardless that moomy or daddy didnt love me, beat me or any other excuse. Whether I had all the breaks or none at all I'm responsible for myself and I have to respect the man I see in the mirror every morning when I see my reflection. It's a schame that few people that are in power positions to make change that effect millions rarely accept that mantle of responsibility despite wanting that job and promising to uphold that responsibility. I cannot change the education system, I cannot change the medical system etc.., but I can help change others opinions of treating others like we were taught when we were little or as every religious faith does, embrace the moral road or embrace the rat race maze for more cheese.

I would actually love to read more about Jackie since I never got into reading celeb books. He like others were extremly talented that they were able to cash in on their talent and make America work for them, they are truly inspiring stories. I see the government as making the basic living standards possible for those who cant do it by themselves, thats job no#1. I'm not talking about a free ride for the lazy but a world where there are more possibilities for the not so fortunate (you get my drift on the consensus). Out of the millions of dollars wasted on this, that or the other more money could be invested in better education making peoples dreams of a better tommorrow. To tell you the truth I've never heard of a company that went bankrupt by not investing in its people, why cant the government do this? The governemnt isnt about making a profit. We are millions of dollars in debt and that will never change, if we are going to be in debt why not invest in our greatest treasure? Why do we hear about single mothers working 2 to 3 jobs only to be in the hole not able to properly care for their children? WHere the politican claims close your legs it your fault for getting pregnant or choosing the wrong guy. How in this time of our existence do people fall through the cracks when our technology allows us to do wonderous things? The truth no profit, not the joy of making a difference and thats quite sad no isnt it?

Also I was hoping you would comment on George Carlin and his fight to free speech. Do you think he destroys the American dream or points out not to be cattle? Our governemt has so much potential to create a Utopia if only someone would step up to the plate, but most see the mountain and give up trying to climb it. Respect to you my friend as always.

by maxwell edison

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I love George Carlin. He's got about twenty years on me, but I grew up laughing at his stuff.

But first I want to address one thing you said. "Our government", you said, "has so much potential to create a utopia." On one hand. I couldn't disagree more strongly. But on the other hand, I couldn't agree more passionately. Utopia holds a different definition for different people. Therefore, a collective utopia is an unreachable objective, and trying to create a utopia for one, might create a living hell for another. Moreover, America is an idea defined on the concept of individualism, not collectivism. But in the sense that the United States government can, and should, guarantee the right of every individual to seek and attain his own utopia, I would agree. The right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is an individual guarantee, not a collective one. Moreover, it's the pursuit of happiness that's guaranteed, not the attainment of happiness. All too often, people misunderstand this very simple concept. When people look towards the government (or anyone else, for that matter) to "make them happy" instead of relying on themselves, not only will they always fall short of their objective, but it's contradictory to the principles that started this big called America experiment in the first place, and it will always infringe on the liberties of others.

But I digress. Back to George Carlin.

As I've mentioned an several occasions, I'm a record album collector, and my collection of comedy records stands at well over a hundred. Jonathan Winters, Bob Newhart, Stan Freeberg, Redd Foxx (Did you know Redd's birth name was......Sanford?), Alan Sherman, The Smothers Brothers, Shelley Berman, Steve Martian, Cheech and Chong, Jerry Clower, Woody Woodbury, Bill Cosby, Carol Burnette, Tom Lehrer, George Carlin, and more, are all in my collection. The seven words you can't say on TV, by George Carlin, is one of the best comedy recordings of all time. But it's rather obsolete today, I suppose, as nothing is off-base on television anymore.

There's such a thing as laughing at yourself to keep things from getting too serious, and a little self-depreciating humor about ourselves as Americans can be just as therapeutic. But I would hate to think that someone might derive their political opinions and subsequent conclusions based on such humor, thus the intent of the original thread.

And no, I don't think George Carlin destroys the American dream. To the contrary, I think he epitomizes it. After all, when he started his comedy career in the 60s, what other country could have accommodated such a successful realization of his dream? In Cuba, China, The Soviet Union, or Saddam's Iraq, he would have been shot! And even though many of his routines are anti-American, or so they seem, I'd bet anything that he'd give credit to America for his success just as much as he pokes fun at her.

Stay cool, and don't believe anything the Bush administration tells you. In fact, play it safe: don't believe anything anybody tells you.
- George Carlin.

by oz_media

I was just onsite and the client's radio jock was saying how he thinks Saddam sent the WMD to Mars so that GWB couldn't find them!

Perhaps that explains why so much money is invested into Mechano toys (remember Mechano?) in outer space, they've gotta find the stuff!

:-)
OM

by thechas

Max,

You may recall that one of the reasons that Jimmie Carter was elected President was his candid interview with Playboy.

The generally ignorant US population liked his "I have lusted in my heart" comment.

Yes, there were other reasons that Carter beat Ford. However, without the Playboy interview, the election would have been much closer.

Chas

by maxwell edison

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I cut my political teeth supporting Jimmy Carter. The first vote I ever cast was for him back in 1976. In 1980, after a rather disappointing first-term, long lines at the gas stations, and the debacle in the desert, I voted for Ronald Reagan. Jimmy Carter was the first and only Democrat I ever voted for.

However, it was really rather thrilling when I had the opportunity to tell President Carter in person that he was the recipient of the first vote I ever cast. I met him at a book signing where he autographed a couple of his books for me. He signed his book of poetry, which he was promoting at the time, and he also signed a first edition of his memoirs, which I had previously purchased and had up on a bookshelf for a number of years.

I'm not crazy about many of his political views, but he's one of the good guys, in my opinion.

by jkaras

Jimmie Carter is the only president I hold in high esteem. I was to young to know how or why his presidency failed but I do know this: he is the only president I've ever seen or heard of who constantly gives to the community. His donations and habitat for humanity where I've seen him in multiple areas swinging hammers actually helping build a house for the poor makes me proud of at least one president. He does this to make a difference not for any publicity for re-election to further his career, its rather refreshing that was deemed one of the worst presidents of our time is the best humanitarian, isnt life ironic? Maybe Bill could perform favors for women who cant get a man, wouldnt that be funny?

by john_wills

On the whole, I don't think so. However, he issued an executive order preventing the export of weaponry to undemocratic American states. El Salvador pretty promptly went democratic ("democratic" doesn't mean wonderful, or perfect, just democratic) and within a decade every American state except Haiti and Cuba was a democracy. I wish he had issued the order for the whole world: that would have saved us a lot of trouble by now.

by maxwell edison

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I'll blame a cut and paste error on this.

A sentence above should have read, "....but it's contradictory to the principles that started this big experiment called America in the first place...."

(I hate it when that happens....)

by maxwell edison

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You said that you think that you're viewed as a joke. Not at all, at least I don't, nor have I seen anyone else suggest such a thing. (Well, Oz did on a couple of occasions, but he doesn't count.) On the contrary, you're one of the good guys around here, at least as far as I'm concerned.

My "write your own punch line" to "elections are a joke" sentiment was only my own attempt at a little dry, but lame, humor, but intended to make somewhat of a point, I suppose.

I'll reply to the rest of your questions later, after I've had some time to gather my thoughts on them (and get some work done).

Later...

by oz_media

Mrafrohead and I have gone toe to toe. He has called me someretarded names, I have returned the insults. End of story.

In another sense, I've seen us agree on several points mroe recently.

For Max, to say someone, whether me or anyone, 'doesn't count' in pretty dumb. All opinions count to the open minded. Mind you, I've PROBABLY said the same about you and you will remind me shortly. However I think we've recently broken some new ground and digging that up would be a poor idea now.

mrafrohead- You know as well as I do, we had a very heated rant, in the same sense, I'm SURE i've seen your recent points and we've agreed on several posts.

I don't think you're an idiot or that your opinion doesn't count, if anything, I'm an idiot as much as you are or anyone else here with such stubborn opinions.

It is the ones who don't let up that succeed, the other just go to pasture BAAAAAAAAAD conformity!

by john_wills

The candidates may all be destructive, but I can usually discern the least destructive. The candidates are not the candles, my choice among them is. What is the purpose of the state(NOT what are its functions, or anything but the question I ask)? What are the states with which I am concerned doing contrary to that purpose(NOT how are they failing in their purpose NOR what are they doing that I disagree with)? At this level of analysis all my wonderful schemes for a brave new world take on merely secondary or tertiary significance, so I can forget most of the ideology when selecting candidates.

by maxwell edison

...that he was a good president. I said that I considered him a good guy. Actually, I think he was a lousy president. He was, and still is, too much of an idealist, and not enough of a realist.

by thechas

I don't know about your state's process.

In Michigan, the review that takes place on an initiative only verifies that the wording is proper. The review does not cover the legalities or legitimacies of the proposed law.

If you want a proposal from the initiative process to have any chance of "sticking", you need to have it reviewed by several lawyers who specialize in constitutional law.

Instead of "bad" law, I should have said "poorly written legislation".

Chas

by thechas

Max,

Thinking about this, I hope that they are not getting their information from the one-liners in the monologues.

While I can't remember the last time I watched Letterman, so I don't know how he handles the candidates, Leno tries to get all the major candidates onto his show for an interview.

This gives the candidates a more relaxed forum than the news interview shows.

It's not hard hitting journalism by any stretch. But it let's the candidates have a chance to speak without the host going for the jugular.

Chas

by oz_media

"I suppose, as nothing is off-base on television anymore"

I have the seven words routine on LP too (for the younger members, ann LP is a Long Play record. A vinyl disk used for rplicating audio via a small needle that follows the bumps magically hidden into Grooves in the large plastic disc) but I really don't think they are on TV too much, even with the more liberated North American TV. IN Canada they've graduated from soft to medium core porn on TV, full frontal no close ups, and the F word is becoming more and more accepted by the CRTC (Canada's FCC).

Remeber Carlin as the train conductor in the kids series about the famous British stories of Thomas the Train Engine?
Also had Ringo Starr doing the part for a while.

I don't know if you followed Sam Kineson (sp?) but he had the best takes on religion. He was a priest at one time, then say a different light and started to tear aprt biblical credibility with a vengeance. He did a few parts on rock videos and stuff but die a while back.

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