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  • #2179597



    by justathought ·

    I would be interested and appreciate your views on death, the questions it brings into our life, the way it changes our world.

    How does it affect the idea of our own mortality?

    How does it alter our priorities and values in life?

    The impact on our spirituality, for those who hold beliefs?

    how does it affect our own “personal” identity?

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    • #3043950


      by tony hopkinson ·

      In reply to Death

      Well affects mortality by putting an end to it!
      I don’t think about dying well, only when I do something life threatening and then only for that short interval before I realise I got away with it again.
      Spirituality is something I see no purpose in believing in.

    • #3043949

      more specific

      by justathought ·

      In reply to Death

      I realised my questions were not properly presented, what I meant to say is :

      How the death of a loved one affects our own mortality, our priorities and values in life, the impact on our spirituality and our own identity.

      • #3043885

        Haven’t had anyone close to me die

        by tony hopkinson ·

        In reply to more specific

        as yet. They all know I love them, that’s all that matters. Where they or I go after death, if there is anything after a death is something I can wait to find out. I can also wait to find out how crap it’s going to feel until it does happen.
        Won’t affect my identity at all though, nor is the thought of my own death or anyone elses, going to turn me spiritual. I have more respect for them and for myself to wallow in that sort of self pity or fear.

        • #3123114

          Neither had I until a year ago

          by dmambo ·

          In reply to Haven’t had anyone close to me die

          My father went Sept of last year and my mother went down like a stone and followed him last January. My mother always had a strong belief in an afterlife and seemed that she was just impatient to get back with her husband. It really seemed to me that she was more worried after he died that he just needed her there to look after him. It certainly took all the fear of death out of her. I know that she wanted to go.

          As for me, the main fear I have is that my family needs me around for another couple of decades. I don’t think I’m afraid of dying, but I’m afraid to leave the kids behind.

        • #3122037

          put a different perpective

          by justathought ·

          In reply to Neither had I until a year ago

          Yes that is what I have noticed,like your mother all of a sudden the outlook on my own mortality changed, it is no longer something to talk about and somehow far away in the future, it becomes real and it is no longer an enemy to fear, but the inevitable part of life that could strike at any time.

        • #3121946

          I Believe that my mother…

          by dmambo ·

          In reply to put a different perpective

          …considered death more than an inevitable part of life. I think she really was impatient. For the last several years, her main purpose in life, in her mind, was to care for the old guy. When that purpose was gone, she was passively suicidal. She knew that all her kids and grandchildren were secure. She truly was concerned that she not become a burden to her family and, coming from a working-class background, she said she would never want to squander the fruits of life’s work on nursing home care. She never wanted to leave her home of 50 years.

          Personally, I would have rather seen her move in with me or one of my siblings and be around for several more years regardless of the “burden”. But that was not part of her plan. She was far more afraid of what extening her life would mean than of dying. In my view, she spent 4 months willing death to come.

      • #3128081

        My Best Love

        by cjoe071855 ·

        In reply to more specific

        When my wife passed in May I felt that life just was not worth living anymore. I loved her so much that a large part of me died with her. My life did not mean much to me. My 12 year old boy’s existence stopped me from taking myself out.

        • #3126696

          Such Loss

          by flynmonkey ·

          In reply to My Best Love

          I don’t know and hope I never know the loss that you have had. I have seen my mother and my mother in law go through the loss of their husbands. They have told me that Jesus carried them through that time of grief. Jesus is there for you and anyone who ask for his comfort. I will be praying for you.

      • #3130116

        Interesting that you ask this

        by frehen ·

        In reply to more specific

        And the message you placed came to my attention just now. It must have a reaon, justathought, that you asked this. Curious about the why.

        The passed six-eight months a lot happened to me. I got the message that my nephew John took his own life, got one after the other problem to deal with, it just went crazy. I went to my doctor with oppressive complaints. It was due to a depression. Which is understandable if one knew what I was confronted with. I even made a list of my own miseries. Reading it I even got more dpressed…

        SO, talking about death, I was ready to take my own life and let death make an end to this distress. I waited and waited.. not really ready to do it. Though the thoughts of it were active.
        Frightening it was.

        Lost my dad in ’95. That was an impact, though I was secure, cause I had a good and integer band with him. My other brothers who lived more far away from home, had more problems. So thought I could cope with this kinda events in life. I truly loved my dad and of course it did hurt.

        So, talking about it. I think that’s good. it helps me put my thoughts to a medium. Don’t really care if you’re ready for my story. Cause I ain’t ready with the whole picture yet. Sometimes I even get the thought, well John did it… can be done. So, I’m not ready with all of it. But it’s good to write it down, considering it.

        Some things are still active as I write. After 4 years of being unemployed and confronted that the working community is not waiting for a 46-year-old, so not able to get a proper job, I got depreesed in the first place. After a number of events following up one another that started 6-8 months ago, won’t bother yall with details, I lost it complete. So I am on pills now, hate that but “like” the bottom-line it creates.

        Understand my view on death? I guess I will not end my life… I guess I simply can’t… seems there’s somthing to live for to, like my 2 children. I am divorced and one of my problems is a legal dispute with my ex-wife. Which brings lots of troubles, thoughts etc.

        Guess most of the members writing to this discussion are americans. I’m from the Netherlands, Holland. As I think of it now I think life sucks big time. It has a reason obviously that I think this way. Hope life, as it turns, will turn in favor of me and become more joyfull to live.

        Just another view on death…..

        • #3124828

          Fight back

          by razor1947 ·

          In reply to Interesting that you ask this

          Take care my friend. Sorry to hear of all your troubles, and heart aches. Killing yourself would not really solve anything, no matter how you try to explain it.
          I think it is about time you start thinking about yourself, and start being good to yourself. The hell with thinking about everyone else for a while, loved ones or not. It is time for you to start a life for yourself, and be a little selfish about it also. Don’t let everyone beat you down. Stand up and say– I’m important too, and by God, all of you are not going to rush me to the grave, or a mental ward. I’m going to do something for myself !! If I’m unable right at the moment, I’m going to start making plans to do something that I have always wanted to do. You have to love yourself, before you can muster the strength to deal with everything that has been dumped in your lap.
          Do something that is going to put a smile on your face bud. Give yourself a little TLC (TENDER LOVING CARE)
          You have to much time time on your hands to feel sorry for yourself. Once you see that you actually like the person in that body that your dragging around, things will start in the right direction for you. Your 46. I’m 58 and have nothing to brag about. My marriage is up and down, the bills keep adding up, I have heart trouble, and I can’t quit smoking. I’m not a bad looking man, and I’m kind hearted. But most of all, I love me. Sounds stupid, you say ??
          Not at all, I keep looking for ways to keep me happy, and interested. Things that I like. After a while, you’ll gain strength to deal with other matters. If you can’t like yourself, how do you expect anyone to see the goodness in you.
          Give it a try, you have nothing to loose, and a ton of good things to gain.
          Respectfully, RAY

        • #3124665

          Interesting You asked This

          by domiles ·

          In reply to Interesting that you ask this

          Your depression makes me very sad for you and brings back many memories of all the years of damage done to my husband by his mother’s suicide.
          He in turn took his own life and left two children who in turn have had terrible problems because of that! Life is worth living if you find one reason to smile a day, have a good laugh once in a while at get hugs and occasional kind words from your children.
          Every day is a battle for me to stay alive but I will keep going and going until I no longer am productive. I can not work but I find things to do that will help others. I rebuilt an old computer for about $100 to provide one to the neighbor kids who would never be able to afford one other wise. I operate a not for profit web site to help people not get scammed on the internet. I edit books for fledging writers who can not get an editor because they are unknowns.
          I provide counseling for people who are not aware that I am even doing it – strangers and friends with a gentle touch, an encouraging word or just listening to them vent.
          I work on my family’s genealogy to leave something behind for future generations. I read (everything I can get my hands on) and knit and crochet afghans and hats and sweaters for the poor elderly who have no one to do those things for them.
          I am pretty much house bound because of my health problems now but every day offers something to learn and the opportunity to give.
          Learning how not to work 80 hours a week at top speed was the biggest adjustment to my illness and I was depressed, a stranger I met on line while looking for a place to do psychic readings for others let me vent, gave me contact with the outside world and things to do to keep my mind active and growing. Being and feeling productive is the key to enjoying life and as long as I can do both, I will and treasure each new lesson I can share with others.
          The stress of your legal problems is a major factor in your depression I am sure. But you can do nothing about them, let God and your attorney handle them. You focus on what you can do. As you feel lees stressed and happier, I bet you will have a lot better chance at finding employment. If you get bored, you can work on the Vosburgh genealogy in the Netherlands for me!
          My problem with being so close to death is all the things I would like to accomplish for others so I would be glad to share my list with you to help fill you time and get you growing and enjoying again.
          That you are taking your meds is a good sign. Believe me living takes a lot more courage than taking your own life. But the rewards are fantastic if you just jump in and live!
          Blessings and joy to you for the New Year

        • #3124610

          It is certainly a fight

          by justathought ·

          In reply to Interesting You asked This

          I will agree with you, choosing life takes a lot of courage when things fall apart around us, and fighting to try and live is very exhausting but in the end there are still wonders to discover.

          A year ago I could not even see any future and just making it through the day was such a struggle, but now I can in betweens the bad times find meaning to life.

        • #3124614

          I can relate, but you nust keep fighting

          by justathought ·

          In reply to Interesting that you ask this

          Dear Frehen

          I can relate so much to your situation, I asked those questions as a year ago I lost my husband to cancer,
          Grief is so exhausting that there are times when like yourself I thought what is the point, I came close to giving up as you did.

          You are right, talking about it does help, it is not easy for when crisis strikes into someone’s life we gain friends and lose some, people do not want to hear how we truly feel, I was supported by people I never met excepted in cyber space and they have achieved a miracle, some supported me through the night in grief chat rooms,or writting emails, and we even managed to reach each other by phone.

          I live in Australia but came from France and my cyber friends mostly from the USA would ring me and they kept me whole.

          What I have learned is that we become more comfortable with our grief as time goes by, we will never forget how could we? however we must go forwards, we must hold some hope in our heart, sure the waves of despair come out of nowhere, we have our moments but we also can embrace life in between, we must survive.

          I feel for you for a divorce is also a grief, a lost but you have 2 children and for them you must fight to live, for me well I have no human family but I have four dogs and strange as it may sounds to some, they are keeping me going.

          I wish that you will be able to come to find some harmony in your life and you can come to some arrangement that will suit you your ex-wife and the children

          Wishing you well

        • #3124565

          opening up

          by frehen ·

          In reply to I can relate, but you nust keep fighting

          Ray, Diane, justathought… thanks!!

          Forgive me for opening up and tell some more. I got into writing and found this had become quite some text.. bare with me for that.

          But I really mean thanks. Thanks for all the kind words… thanks for all the motivating talk.
          I guess it’s a start. Hope to hear more of you guys and dolls, cause I really need it. Need to contact and talk about this, as I said, i think it is good. It’s so good of you justathought to start this topic. In my situation I could not resist to react, and what I find is being heard and being cared about, even when I don’t know you all. That’s nice and feel terribly good. So thanks for that too.

          Then somewhat personally. Ray. I admire your way of handling things. Hoping I will be able to handle it that way. Looks good. Not ready for it yet at the moment, but certainly willing to get there. thanks for your advise. Btw, can’t quitte smoking either and costing me a fortune and does not bring me any good.. just can’t…like it too much.

          Some addition; I divorced in ’92 after almost 12,5 years of marriage. We broke up being friends, although hartbroken and were both willing to raise our 2 children in the best way we could after divorce. It wasn’t easy I can say, cause she moved to another town with her new husband, which reulted in a lawsuit in ’96. I was convicted to paying and fetch my children at the new place, which was so unfair… anyhow. Now that I am unemployed for 4 years and am not able anymore to contribute in the welfare of my children, she is demanding lots of money. She’s going to far now and I have to make it stop. My children, bless their souls, are with me, not that I want this, but they fully understand my situation and don’t understand their mother’s actions. It pleases me and yes Diane, I have to leave it to god and my attorney to solve this matter.

          Y’all know what my problem really is? I can’t park my problems. I have a parking problem (as all my brother’s and 1 sister have that btw) It means that when situations occur, in my case one after the other, I cannot be in controll anymore. I cannot park my problems, giving it out of hands, I still want to controll and handle it. So, my mind flipps and loses it cause it just gets overwhelmed with all of it, cannot cope. If I could just park it and leave it to be and would be able to trust the fact that there’s nothing I can do more on it, it would be better. I am going to get… for four months now trying at least, get some psychological help in training to get there. It’s a process where lots goes wrong… talked to several psychiatrists, but they only provide me with pills. I need methods to be able to handle things. Well, something is going to happen on that field soon i hope.

          Again an addition: Lost my oldest brother in 2003. Strangely enough I forgot to mention him in my first reply to this topic. My view on the matter is that he drank himself to death. Still, also I consider he must have had the same probs as I and my relatives have. We come from a family that has a very complicated way of connecting, relating to each other. Many disputes have filled our lives. We all went from home living elswhere with fighting. Fighting loose from our parents. we all understand they did their best, but we are not thankfull of the way they did it.

          So that’s history. Now for the present. Well, you know about my nephew John. Spoke to him last summer on a reunion of the family and he was full of plans and, as I saw it, enjoying life. So it’s such a big mystery why he took his own life.

          My mother is 80 years old. As I am the son who lives nearby (my sister is living more close to her, but she cannot handle serious matter at all….) I am convicted in taking care of her. It brings lot of troubles and care. I feel the responsibility and am willing to take it. on the other hand I hate it, cause sometimes it’s to much to bear. Cause she is chaotic, does not trust me in the things I do for her, cause she does not understand all of it anymore… just getting old. I cannot blame her for that but it makes it so hard to motivate myself to do it. Still I have to and … well I have to.

          Financial problems. Of course I have a dark view on the future for employment. I am trying now to start a businesss of my own, but it seems all works against me in getting there. Things seem to go the right way and then another thing posp up which makes it impossible. Well, hopes are there I can reach my goal…

          Damage to my car. First of all, I can’t really aford to have one, but now there’s some guy which damaged my car and is not willing to pay for it, nor would he report it to his own insurrancecaompany. So I am stuck with a debt to a garage who fixed the problem and wants me to pay them almost 1400 euro’s. Can’t pay it.

          The lawsuit to my ex. She laughs at my children when they try to defend my situation. She says to my daughter that she will get all she can get her hands on… it hurts. Buw well, we know how these things go, just mention it, cause it hurts and I cannot park this either…. it eats me up.

          As does writing this down… so I stop for now. After I have said the following:

          I read it takes a lot of courage to live your life. Thsi could indicate that one is a coward when taking his own life. I do not share this thought. It also takes courage to take your life… caus I don’t have it. There’s no cowardness (if that is correct spelling) however in taking your own life. It is my believe that depression and life-problems, and being alone as my nephew John, can bring someone to no other solution as what he did. On the other hand, I also believe that one really must not get to this point. But that’s easy talking cause you simply cannot control everything that comes into your life… and when one has a parking problem as I described… it is near to become that point….

          Thanks again. Hope to find out more and hope to be able to have contributed to this matter as find solutions to what I am coping with….

        • #3124550

          talk as much as you feel you need to

          by justathought ·

          In reply to opening up

          Dear Frehen

          write as much as you need to do so, it is the only way you must let out all your feelings, and not feel guilty for them, you have been through a lot and it comes a time when the body and mind cannot take it any longer, the stress is too much.

          Perhaps you could try those 2 sites, one is about grief, I have met some lovely people there and they have helped me so much.
          The other site is about depression and is just as helpful :

          Keep reaching do not bottled your pain inside it is important to share your grief

        • #3130458

          Hard times are demanding, but not impossible

          by razor1947 ·

          In reply to opening up

          Hello Frehen,
          It’s always easy to give advice when your not wearing the shoes of the man in question. I realize that much. Your family history sounds like it is in rough shape on the emotional part of living. This might be so Frehen, but my friend are your own man. You do not have to follow the same uncomfortable path.First of all you have to have a little more faith in yourself.
          The statement about having courage to end one’s life, is not accurate. It doesn’t mean your a coward either. It’s just a thought to give you a few seconds to escape from your problems, and worries. That act of self removal from the situation, will not solve anything, if anything at all, it just makes matters worse, and it gives the children the same thought also. They will think there is nothing wrong with taking their own lives either. I am sure that you do not want to teach them that is the only way to cope, do you??
          You know Frehen, as hurtfull as your problems are, there are a good many people in the world that would be glad to swap places with you, beleive it or not. They are in worse shape than you are. Even though it may seem like you are on the very bottom of life’s barrel, your not.
          You do have a lot going for you, even though you think that you don’t.
          it is awful hard for me to try and give you some ideas on how to get some help with your money matters, because I don’t know much of your country, or its government. I have no knowledge of any social programs in your country either.
          You know how life works, when your down, everyone wants to kick you in the face. Beleive me, people have had their fun doing it to me, several times when I was down and out.

          It made me so mad, that it actually gave me different kind of strength. Strength out of anger. I’m not saying that I solved my problems in a week or two, or even several months. Some of my really hard to live with problems lasted for ten years or so. But I kept chipping away at them, as best I could, a little at a time.

          I litteraly talked out loud to myself, saying ” you might have me down, and out now you bastards, but it won’t always be this way.”
          It’s probaly not a healthy thing to talk to yourself, but you have to do whatever it takes to keep you going, till you see the light.

          There has been times when I have been out of work for long periods of time, and everyone , and their brother were hounding me for money. I have even had to live in several houses from time to time with a bunch of alcohlics, and only eating every two to three days. That is when I was divorced, and blamed myself for everything.
          It seemed lik the end of the world for me, but after I found out that my wife at the time, had been sleeping with this man for the last two years of our marriage, it made me madder then hell. I was married for twelve years when that happened. That was my first marriage. To give you a brief idea on how lucky I am at love, and marriage, I’m in my fourth marriage now. This one has made it to twenty years. Oct 27, 2005 was the twenth year date. It still has as many bad days, as good. My wife is an alcohlic, and puts me through hell.

          But I have my little things I do, and plan for to keep my sanity. Some of my plans never materalize, but it’s my way to stay on top of things, and not be beaten down

          For the longest time when I left the Marine Corps, after fighting in Viet Nam, I couldn’t keep a job longer than two, or three months, and I was also drinking very heavy.

          There is so much that I can tell you that is so dishearting. But bad times do pass, as long as you don’t give up.

          People will take advantage of you, if you let them. They like saps like me with a kind heart.
          What seems unbearable to you today, will be a lesson in life for you as you get older.

          There will be some good times ahead Frehen, even another love in your life, to share things with, as long as you give it a chance.

          In all honesty, it might get a little worse, before it gets better, but you have to hang in there, and ride the storm my friend.

          Your children will always be there for you, and will understand what everyone has put you through. Just don’t leave them with the idea that a quick way out is the only answer to problems that we have to face in life.

          My favorite saying— “I once felt bad because I had no shoes, till I met a man, who had no feet.”

          Getting late my friend, and this old man is tired, so I’m going to hit the sack, and get some needed sleep.
          Respectfuly, Ray

        • #3124451

          Appreciated, thanks!

          by frehen ·

          In reply to Hard times are demanding, but not impossible

          Thanks Ray, understand what you’re saying. You’re a kind-hearted man, thanks for your words.
          I guess congratulations are in order, though it does not sound all to splendid. Still, having a relation for twenty years now, it’s something these days. But if this putts you through hell, it’s not easy, I can imagine that. You really need a balance and seek that in making your own issues important, which is good.
          I need to repack myself to get to that point.
          Life can be so unfair. Sometimes, like now, I really hate it. Still, you’re absolutely right, don’t wanna learn my kids that leaving this earth is the solution to this.
          One has to fight, one has to, well drag himself from one issue to the other and, maybe, see it as a challenge to get over that one again. It’s easy talk and it still has to be done, the point is, you get so damn tired of fighting all the time.
          So, it’s true, you need some balance.

          So, cause I am not in my best shape I don’t participate in all going-out suggestions my girlfriend makes. Just say No, don’t feel like going. It’ll come back someday. We just had a discussion of going out after newyearsday. It’s with friends of her. I have no bindings with these people and just feel I am in the way. Last year I did go and felt unneeded, drank too much and made it an impossible evening. Some things happened that evening, if I had reacted as I wanted I would have struck the man in the face. But I did not and kept it peacefully, though it stops me from going out with her friends again.
          I want to be able to descide whether I feel like going or not. She makes a point out of it like I let her down. OK, after my explanation she accepts, though leaving me with some guilt. It ain’t right, so I try to put it asside. I am in charge of me. Sounds pretty strong… hmm.

          OK, what you’re saying is, all is relative, as in your favorite saying. That’s true of course.
          I often hear things like that. “Man you’re complaining with healthy leggs”, it’s a dutch saying and than confront me with the people in Africa. I know that there’s a huge difference in misery I have to bear and them. But I don’t see the relation, I have no relation, so the point goes way pass me. Hate those comparisons. They don’t help me, although I realize they are well meant. But it’s so cliche. OK, I am happy I was not born there and have their misery, it won’t make mine less. Know what I mean…

          Ray you got quite some history of your own, being in ‘nam and all. Must have a lot of scars mainly psychologically. But I hear a rather strong man who has come to the point of being selfconfident and all. I however don’t feel confident at all about meself. have to reget that again. I was pretty self-confident a few years back when all kinda misery started to come over me. It did not make me stronger, it weakened me to what I am now. Too much trouble is way too overwhelming and I just can’t handle it.

          Ok, in a few weeks time I will get someone to talk to. I’m on a waiting list. A psycholgist. Hope he can give me some handles to take control of this. And make me stronger and more self-confident. I wana stop with pills, although I have very light version. Point is they do stop the anxiety and bad feelings, stress, they also stop some good feelings like wanting to have sex. My girlfriend is not to happy about that, neither am I of course. But it just comes with those kinda pills. It gets you a “bottom-line-feeling” where in fact you could not get below. I did get below, cause they were not strong enough for all the trouble I was facing. Gues sthat’s why I got such frightening thoughts.

          Finacially, well, there’s welfare, meaning my govt has taken care of when one is unemployed one still gets money. At first it is 70% of what you’ve last earned, than it goes down and down and down. You can imagine what it’s like right now. Still all gets more expensive, gas, electricity, water, house-rent, food, clothes …
          and my ex-wife just wants more and more money.
          And other issues like the damage to my car, taking a lawyer etc etc.

          It’s not easy, but talking about it sure helps.
          It putts me more at ease, cause I can vent it.
          Thanks for putting up with me.
          Respectfuly, Fred

        • #3124298

          Explanation enough, that is hard

          by frehen ·

          In reply to I can relate, but you nust keep fighting

          First of all, my condoleance. It is very hard.

          Did not react to this justathought. Still, how good of you to bring this issue up. It sure is helping me to ventilate and at least talk about it.

          Pfiew, that’s a hard isuue, losing your husband. Cancer is cruel, hope he did not suffer much and long. But for you life must move on and you had the same struggle as I have now. You still are struggling as I understand. So yes, bringing this up is good for talking, we have to have some laughs to to get our life on its feet again.

          Life should be worth living, though sometimes as you and I and as it appears more TR-members are struggling at some point to hold on. Painfull, really down-bottom issues which brings us to the edge of handling/coping it.

          Also wish you strenghth and wish you well!
          Thanks for telling.
          Respectfully, Fred

      • #3121067

        Do animals count as closed ones???

        by frehen ·

        In reply to more specific

        For me they do.
        As staed earlier, I’ve had my deal of circumstances which brought me to the issue of death. I also lost my dog, called Lady.
        And she was a Lady! She was beautifull !
        Here’s a link to a picture of her:

        Hope this works.
        It was sad the day she died. Of course.
        She was in pain. Run throught the garden, sank to her knees and was laying down. Than she stayed lying down. She could not get up again. So we managed to get her up on a cloth and carried her inside. I stayed up all night for something was not right. At 05:00 AM she began screaming for pain… I did not knwo what to do, so I called the vets. They came… well at 06:30 u…. There was nothing they could do as to get him to sleep… so as the vet went for getting the serenge (?) to get him to sleep I talked to her…
        Man this was so bad… even as I write this down it gives me shivres….
        Than she was gone…. I burried her in a wood, she loved to be there… went to visit her every 2 weeks…. since 16 june ’03… and now… it has been over a year that I’ve been there… I am ashamed… loved her so much and already forgotten. There has been a replace, not a dog of my own, but from my girlfriend. Maybe that’s why.
        Still Lady takes a special place.

        This new bloke, called bono, after the singer of U2… he’s so funny. So he stole my haert. Not the place Lady got, but a new place….

        Anyhow. What about it?

        I must say.
        I confront people in this forum with my situation… not only “Lady”-wise… also human-wise. It is not meant to hurt or annoy anyone’s feelings, but I am ia kinda shape nobody wants…
        and I may be rude which never is intentionally, i may be confronting at some point, but never meant to harm.
        If so I did, I appoligize… though if matter being taken into circumstances I am in… I actually expect understanding.

        All my statements, feelings, sayings, are from a certain kinda perspective I have now… as all people probably have when they write…

        End of message.
        Friendly greetings to all who’s around.

        • #3121066

          Here’s my take on it

          by road-dog ·

          In reply to Do animals count as closed ones???

          Lots of theologians say dogs have no souls so don’t expect to see them in the afterlife.

          I was present when an avid golfer asked the Pastor if there was golf in heaven. His answer was profound. He said that happiness was the condition to expect in heaven. If golf was essential to his happiness, then golf was to be expected.

          Personally, that helps. Ecpect to be happy, If Lady is essential to your happiness, make sure you have a couple of milk-bones in your pocket when you die.

          As for feeling ashamed, why bother? Put the bricks down, man! We grieve, but inevitably life goes on whether we desire to move on or not. Proximity to a gravesite is not essential to remember loved ones. They live on in our hearts and our memories. That is what is important.


        • #3120872

          True word

          by frehen ·

          In reply to Here’s my take on it

          That’s right, well of course that’s the case. She is in my heart and that will never change.
          And it is not nescesarry to go to her grave all the time. That’s true. As you say, life goes on.
          Thanks for your kind words. If I think of it when dying I will put some milk-bones with me!
          Sincerely, Fred

        • #3120937

          Dogs, cats and other animals

          by jardinier ·

          In reply to Do animals count as closed ones???

          What a totally beautiful creature was your “Lady.” Thanks for showing us the photo.

          I grew up in a family in which there were always dogs and/or cats.

          Some of these animals died in tragic circumstances which are too depressing to post here.

          I remember once I was camping out in the bush with a girlfriend and she asked: “Do ants go to heaven?”

          I don’t believe that anyone KNOWS what happens after death, either to humans or animals. There are various theories expounded by various religions which purport to give the answer, but there is no proof.

          I think it is good and healthy to mourn and remember your beloved animal. I doubt that I shall ever have a friend as good as my deceased cat Smokey (mentioned elsewhere in this discussion).

          There were so many animals buried in our garden that I used to entertain myself by hypothesing that one day aliens would come to earth and find all the animal bones and think they were the true
          inhabitants of our planet.

        • #3120876

          Thanks Jardinier

          by frehen ·

          In reply to Dogs, cats and other animals

          Hehe, aliens and true inhabitants [lol]. Right.

          You’re right, the love of animals is
          unconditional, well in most cases. They behave to us as they are treated by us. And can be true friends.

          Yes, she was a beautifull dog, irisch sheperd or
          Lassie. Not even pure race, but that’s no matter.
          I had beautifull years with her.
          Sincerely, Fred

    • #3043936

      Death revised

      by jardinier ·

      In reply to Death

      Actually I think the discussion would have been more interesting if you had left it in the original form.

      However having said that, I will attempt to answer with a few instances from real life. While there has never been a death which has particularly impacted on my life, it certainly has been devastating to some people.

      1. A women who used to live in my block of condos lost one of her two daughters when the daughter was killed in a motor accident at the age of 33.

      This woman died emotionally at that point and never recovered. She had to terminate the relationship she was having at the time and her only wish was that she would die. She did in fact make one failed suicide attempt during the time that I knew her.

      2. An Italian woman who worked in a greengrocery lost a son, aged in his late 20s and engaged to be married, in a freak accident when a truck fell on his car and killed him. She continued to work in the shop but for many years she was crying all the time. She has now stopped crying but has a gaunt, tragic look in her eyes.

      3. A next-door neighbour lost her son (aged around 30 if I recall) when he died in his bed from some undiagnosed symptom. She could no longer bear to live in the same house and so she moved to a part of Sydney quite some distance away.

      4. My father’s funeral was a bit of a joke because, although he was a man of principle and integrity, no-one close to him really liked him and the only person crying at the funeral service was his brother who cried uncontrollably in any situation as a result of a stroke.

      As for my own feelings towards death: most of the regulars on this site know that I was admitted to hospital two years ago suffering a leaking mitral valve in my heart. Although this did not require surgery (although the doctors would have liked to practise on me) I was faced for the first time with my own mortality.

      Heart disease, like cancer and other potentially fatal conditions, was something that happened to other people. I was shocked when I reached the point — prior to going into hospital — that I could not function. I could barely walk and felt exhausted just standing up.

      So I now have the awareness that at some point my life WILL end and that I want to make as much progress as I can on my various projects while I am still able to.

    • #3043934

      my take on death.

      by jaqui ·

      In reply to Death

      we are all gonna die, ain’t no way around it.
      get on with your life and live it to the fullest.
      don’t be depressed about it, live every minute as if it’s your last.
      and most importantly:
      after death THERE AIN”T ANY MORE TAXES!!!!!!

      • #3043890

        My thoughts exactly.

        by maecuff ·

        In reply to my take on death.

        I have no idea what happens when a person dies. I suspect nothing happens, but what do I know? Either way, it’s going to happen, I can’t do anything about it and I don’t worry about it one way or another. I do, however, use it as an excuse to buy too many shoes and purses. I’m going to die one day, I may as well have these things while I can..

    • #3043902

      I am not afraid of death but I am afraid of dying.

      by sleepin’dawg ·

      In reply to Death

      Fear of death is a conceit in that you are implying that you know there is something to be afraid of. Since nobody has ever come back to tell us what it is like, how could anyone be afraid unless they have always had an unreasoning fear of the unknown. I do not fear the unknown preferring to view it as a challenge and an opportunity to learn something new. Another thing to think of is that death is inevitable. Nobody gets out of this life alive. Dying on the otherhand is something to worry about. If I could be assured of dying quickly and painlessly, I wouldn’t worry. My fear is a long drawn out debilitating and painful illness which would/could only end with one result and would leave me with no dignity and an impoverished estate. Beliefs??? Why??? We’ll only find out once we’re there but in the mean time why worry. Be happy.

      [b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

      • #3123404

        My death

        by jdclyde ·

        In reply to I am not afraid of death but I am afraid of dying.

        isn’t something I fear or worry about.

        I only hope I am around long enough to hold my grandson/daughter some day.

        That is my long term goal.

        Not much of a goal by some peoples standards, but I can’t think of anything more important.

        • #3123399


          by maecuff ·

          In reply to My death

          is a wonderful goal! I only hope I get a granddaughter. I want someone to shop for shoes, makeup and purses with. My stepdaughters were old when I got them and it’s too late to get them interested in ‘girly’ stuff. I have a 3 year old neice who LOVES girly stuff, but she lives 3 hours away and her mother and I (my sister) are barely civil to each other, so that makes it hard.

          I’d like to live long enough to watch my kids discover who they are.

        • #3123389

          Really makes the other “stuff”

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to That

          look silly.

          Big house, fancy car, trophy wife, (well, I guess that last part isn’t TOO silly :p )

          I find I WANT less “stuff” all the time.

          Sure, there are many things that are “fun” but none of them bring me the joy I get from just being with my boys. To see them grow up, marry and start families of their own.

          For their 16th birtday, (three years away) I have already picked out the Marlin 30-30 that I will be getting them. It is a much nicer rifle than I would buy myself, but I want them to have something real nice that they can pass down to THEIR kids when THEY turn 16 telling them that their grandpa gave that to them when they were that age. My idea of immortality. To be remembered. They both already idolize the rifle I got from my grandfather and see what it means to me.

        • #3123384

          Funny how that works..

          by maecuff ·

          In reply to Really makes the other “stuff”

          The older you get, the less you want. I really do not care about collecting a bunch of stuff. (Shoes and handbags aside).

          My husband and I bought a table at a yard sale 10 years ago for $5 and it’s still our dining room table, along with mismatched chairs we’ve collected over the years. I keep looking around at our furniture (nothing matches) and wondering when we’re going to get grown up things. I’ve pretty much decided the answer to that is, NEVER. I’d rather spend the money DOING something than HAVING something.

        • #3127532

          Me Too

          by ujohnson_05 ·

          In reply to My death

          I hope Im around long enough to see some kids of my own. Death doesn’t worry or scare nme everbody will die someday.

    • #3043872

      Reply To: Death

      by jkameleon ·

      In reply to Death

      It’s an ultimate solution to all life’s problems.

    • #3043850

      When I die

      by m_a_r_k ·

      In reply to Death

      I’m going to heaven. I’ll be waving at you all heathens down here on earth still paying taxes.
      Since I’m going to heaven, I’m not worried at all about dying. I’m more worried about what I leave behind. Like my dogs. Who’s gonna take care of them? And what will happen to my TR account?

      Death of a loved one doesn’t affect my spirituality. When it’s your time to go, you’re gonna go. A person’s death may be tragic to the people left behind. But if you believe in such things, the person will be going to heaven if he or she believes also. So his or her death is a great thing for him or her. We cry when someone dies because we’ll miss that person and maybe we’re selfish. We want the person to stay here with us in this living hell known as earth rather than going to eternal bliss in heaven.

      • #3123110

        Your TR account

        by dmambo ·

        In reply to When I die

        It’ll be a slow decline out of the top 100. Each passing day you will drop until one sad day, there’s just a single bar in the graphic and you’re just another unused account. It’s too sad to even contemplate.

        Fare thee well, MARK. You will be missed.

        • #3123040

          A long slow death

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to Your TR account

          I’d rather go out quickly. In a blaze of glory. Or die in my sleep. I don’t want to wither away. Same goes for my TR account. I’m going to plant a logic bomb in my TR account that is set to go off on as soon as I keel over. I’m taking as many people with me as I can. haha I plan on living another 60 or 70 years, though. I wonder if TR will still be around then.

        • #3122137

          But you aren’t..

          by maecuff ·

          In reply to A long slow death

          going out in a blaze of glory. You’re already dying a long slow death. Isn’t that what we all do the moment we’re born.

          I’m just a f*cking ray of sunshine…

        • #3122131

          I can’t stop laughing at that

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to But you aren’t..

          Just hit my funny spot.


        • #3122114


          by maecuff ·

          In reply to I can’t stop laughing at that

          You’re kind of twisted. I appreciate that.

        • #3122126


          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to But you aren’t..

          What if I decide to strap myself to a rocket tomorrow and propel myself to the sun? In that case, I’ll either die a slow death (from cold, lack of oxygen or nuclear radiation) or die in a blaze of glory if my rocket explodes.

        • #3122061


          by maecuff ·

          In reply to Maybe

          Wouldn’t that cost a lot? Did you get a grant? How do you know your rocket would make it out of our atmosphere? Who would launch it?

        • #3121945

          MARK’s been around TR for several months now

          by dmambo ·

          In reply to Mark

          I’ll bet there’s sombody who’s read his posts and would volunteer to launch the rocket. 😉

        • #3121921

          you’re probably right..

          by maecuff ·

          In reply to Mark

          But I doubt that anyone would finance it..

        • #3121885

          Details, details

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to Mark

          NASA is always willing to fund crackpots like me who think of new and cheap ways to launch spacecraft. If not NASA, then surely the Russians will fund it. They’re still trying to get to the moon, you know. And my plan won’t be expensive. I’ll buy an aluminum tube from Home Depot to serve as my rocket. I’ll concoct a ferociously explosive mixture of jet fuel, gunpowder and peanut oil to serve as my rocket propellant. All told, less than $100.

          I’ll use a city park bench as my launch pad. I’m sure any passerby would be willing to assist with the blastoff. Who wouldn’t want to participate in such a history-making event?

        • #3121883


          by maecuff ·

          In reply to Mark

          but until then, you are still dying a long slow death..

        • #3121880

          Oh boy, Mae

          by dmambo ·

          In reply to Mark

          Sounds like you’re just FILLED with the spirit of the holiday season. Who needs nitrous oxide when we have you?

          Cheer up!

        • #3121879


          by maecuff ·

          In reply to Mark

          I’m actually in a great mood. In fact, I’m down right cheery.

        • #3121877


          by dmambo ·

          In reply to Mark

          But you’re still dying a slow death.

          Dang, now you’ve got me doing it.

        • #3121846

          Not dying a slow death

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to Mark

          Hey Ms. Sunshine, I’m not dying a slow death. I’m living a fast life. And I eat a bowl of oatmeal every other day for breakfast. Keeps me young and full of vim and vigor.

        • #3123474


          by maecuff ·

          In reply to Mark

          Well, you’ve got me there.. a bowl of oatmeal every other morning is the best reason for living I’ve heard in a long time…

        • #3127717

          So are we getting the rocket or not?

          by stargazerr ·

          In reply to Mark

          I would be delighted to light a match under it …

          Whats more … I will donate my old car’s wiper blades 😀


        • #3127591

          you_geeks_rule: Launch date

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to Mark

          I am trying to coordinate my launch date with the major news organizations. It would be good if you would volunteer to light the fuse. I’m not liable in case the thing explodes before you have a chance to run for cover.

          What would I do with your old wiper blades? Use them for wings?

        • #3127582

          That’s a whole new discussion..

          by maecuff ·

          In reply to Mark

          Alternate uses for wiper blades..

          Conductor batons? A switch for misbehaving children? Or a switch for masochistic adults? A tool for measuring the depth of somewhat shallow holes?

        • #3127577

          How about ..

          by stargazerr ·

          In reply to Mark

          Using them as Feeler antennae for the rocket?? Or we could use them as an extension to light the fuse from a greater distance .. Will give me more time to run for cover .. 😀

          how about tying a white cloth to it and use it as a truce flag, in case you meet aliens on your way ??


        • #3128773

          Wiper blades

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to Mark

          If we have enough wiper blades we can use Mae’s suggestion. Use them as batons for a band conductor. I plan on having a band at the blastoff party.

          Why haven’t we thought of the most obvious use for these things? Does it ever rain in outer space? I didn’t plan on having a windshield. It’s just going to be me and a rocket strapped to my back. But if we think it’s going to rain, you can bring the wipers and windshield that the wipers belonged to and I’ll fasten the whole contraption to the top of my head.

          I wonder if aliens are color blind. They probably are. That’s why they have antennae on their head. They might take a white truce flag to be a matador’s red cape. I don’t want to be gored to death by an alien. On second thought, maybe that would be OK. That would allow me to go out quickly in a blaze of glory, which is what started this whole thread in the first place.

        • #3128730

          So thats

          by stargazerr ·

          In reply to Mark

          The Band and the fuse lighting taken care of …

          You might want to use the wiper blades as swords to ward of aliens, in case you change your mind about being gored to death …

          You can even take my bathroom slippers so that you dont scorch your feet when you land on the sun … Go in a blaze of glory if you must, but always take care of your feet till the last minute ..


        • #3128728

          you have bathroom slippers?

          by maecuff ·

          In reply to Mark

          I have slippers, but I wear them all over the house. My husband makes fun of them, because they are big, pink, fuzzy and sparkly.

          I think they’re adorable. And they make my feet look HUGE. You know what they say about women with big feet..

        • #3128720


          by stargazerr ·

          In reply to Mark

          Mine are pink and fluffy and huge too … I think that is sort of the norm where bathroom slippers are concerned 😀


        • #3128675


          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to Mark

          Ain’t no way in hell am I going to wear big, pink, fuzzy slippers. I’ll wear a pair of work boots. They should protect me when I land on the sun. And they are good weapons to help kick the pooh out of aliens. As a matter of fact, whenever I fly on an airplane (not just rockets), I like to wear heavy-soled shoes in case the plane goes down in a flaming ball of fury. Heavy-soled shoes will better allow me to walk away from said catastrophe. So far, it has worked very well. I haven’t yet died in a plane crash.

          Mae, women’s feet that look big aren’t the same as feet that are big. 😀

        • #3128647


          by maecuff ·

          In reply to Mark

          If we’re supposed to buy that whole ‘size doesn’t matter’ then it’s only fair you do the same..

        • #3128612

          I changed my mind

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to Mark

          Size does matter. And I’ve got a huge..uh… rocket. :^O

        • #3129232


          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to Mark

          Just don’t overdo it. 😀

        • #3129127

          Damn… replied to the wrong thread

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to Mark

          Ignore my previous post. I posted to the wrong thread. If my head wasn’t glued to my head, sometimes I think I’d lose it.

    • #3043774

      Dear Justa

      by ldyosng ·

      In reply to Death

      If you are asking this because you are struggling to wrap your mind around the death of a loved one, please accept my condolences. Grieving is the most isolated experience I think anyone can experience. It’s even more isolated than depression, in my experience.

      After years of not grieving over things that I should have grieved over, I lost my best friend to a sudden massive heart attack. The dam of feelings finally broke, and I cried with body-shuddering depth. It was the best thing I’ve ever allowed myself to do.

      After years of fearing that grief would drive me insane, I just let it all out and discovered that it passes, just like other feelings.

      My favorite book on the subject of death is: The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying. Even if you don’t embrace the philosophy, it will give you a new perspective. I strongly recommend the book.

      Best of fortune to you as you explore this subject. You will know so much more about yourself when you are done.

      • #3043771

        thank you

        by justathought ·

        In reply to Dear Justa

        Thank you Ldyosng, it is exactly the struggle, I do have that book , but grief is a monster as you seem to know, you are well and then out of the blue come the waves of despair.

        So many questions come where they were none, what we thought we were, and the way we think is so different than before, somehow our all life is in some chaos, it is one step forwards then backwards again.

        Thank you for your kind words

        • #3043758

          I can understand that …

          by stargazerr ·

          In reply to thank you

          Before I start yakking, please accept my condolences.

          Although no one close to me has ever died … but 9 years ago (when I was 14 years old), my mum suffered a massive stroke.

          Life has never been the same since … I am still the Happy Go Lucky person I used to be, but somehow, I have this big empty space inside me which no one can fill.

          It hasnt made me spiritual (my Grandfather has enough interest in spirituality to cover the lack of mine 😀 ). I am not afraid of death but my mother’s illness has made me want to live every second of life to its fullest.

        • #3123136

          Writing it down can be of some help

          by gadgetgirl ·

          In reply to thank you

          At the age of 11, I lost my favourite cousin (substitute brother; I?m an only child) due to very convoluted and tragic circumstances. It was a very young age to be forced to face mortality ? at 11, dying was only for the old. Not for my Micky, who enjoyed life, had a quirky sense of humour, made the most of everything, and wasn?t still for a moment. It wasn?t until I was 13 that it finally hit me that I would never get him back. I suppose death wasn?t explained that well to me, I always had the feeling I?d see him again. Although I?d been missing him for those years, I hadn?t been grieving, just holding it all inside.

          Like Ldyosng, I had an unexpected opening of the floodgates. I can?t even recall what it was, it was so trivial. But it released an uncontrollable sobbing that couldn?t be quelled. A Sunday School teacher suggested I did two things; the first was to write down everything I wanted to say to Micky ? including how angry I was that he wasn?t there, the fact that I never got the chance to say goodbye (same as all the family) or to tell him how much I loved him. Well, an 11 year old doesn?t express her feelings to a 15 year old cousin, does she? The second thing was to write down everything that I felt had changed my outlook, whether on my life in general, my attitude, or my feelings towards other people.

          I still have those papers. About once every ten years or so, I?ll read the second one. The first one I have still left sealed. They may be the feelings of a child, but they were true feelings nonetheless. But the second list can be quite enlightening. I see how my attitude has ?adjusted? over the years. In a way, I suppose it also explains my reluctance to be emotionally involved with anyone other than people I hold extremely close to me; I still intermittently get the feeling that everyone is going to die and leave me alone, which is part of what I think you may be feeling right now. Those feelings do lessen with time; although I have to state that they never go away in their entirety. They just occur less and less often. Unfortunately, having elderly parents has made them recur ? luckily only twice in the past ten years.

          Don?t get me wrong, it?s not a clinical depression, more a feeling of extreme loneliness and a distinct lack of enthusiasm for life. But, believe me, it does go away. Don?t be in a hurry to either start or finish the grieving process; it?ll take as long as it takes. But writing down your concerns etc. may help you settle your mind, and give you a direction in which to focus your thoughts and feelings.

          Believe it or not, it was this episode that brought me to writing poetry, so I have Micky to thank for that.

          Peer mail me anytime you need to. My heartfelt condolences on your loss.


        • #3123374

          To young

          by antuck ·

          In reply to Writing it down can be of some help

          My brother passed away when he was 11. I was 16 at the time. It was a tragic death he had drowned. It was a very rough time. They kept him alive on machines for 26 hours. In that time his kidneys failed and had three cartiac arrests. Much to young for something like this. We as a family talked about what will happen. We all aggreed that if he couldn’t come back the way he was, he should be with God. To have him living an a machine the rest of his life was not the way he had lived life.

          I went to the hospital with my mother. We followed behind the ambulance. I remember my mom kept saying he was to small to be hit by a car and I kept telling her he wasn’t hit by a car. At that time we didn’t know exactly what happened. I just knew some how he wasn’t hit by a car. One of the hardest things was going into his room and looking at him fighting for life. Like your cousin he was full of life and always had a smile on his face. It was very difficult seeing him moving up and down trying to breath. I felt all of my energy leave my body. I stood there and wished I had more to give to him at that time.

          This happened in 1978. I still to this day can shed a tear when thinking of him and the events of that day. But I also know that I am still alive and need to continue. I don’t really think of death that much. Other then knowing some day it will come. Everything in life is born to die. I have my purpose in life and continue to perform and find what it is.

          The ironic part for me was, the day he drowned I had signed up for drivers ed. A month before I had made a promise to him. He was listening to headsets one night and I wanted to listen to them. I told him that if he let me listen to the headsets that night, I would take him for a ride in the car when I got my licence. When I got my licence, the first night I drove I gave him a ride. I have always been very lucky driving and feel part of it is because of my brother.

        • #3122081

          opening of the floodgates

          by jardinier ·

          In reply to thank you

          At the point in time when my father died 32 years ago, I was a complete failure by his standards. I did not have a university degree; my marriage was a dismal failure and I had just resigned from my job as a journalist.

          My father was very musical and had played the organ in church in his younger days. Towards the end of his life he acquired a second-hand organ and played it.

          After his death — and not to try and emulate him but just because I liked the instrument — I painstakingly taught myself to play the organ in a rudimentary fashion. I also discovered that I could compose music and over the years wrote more than 150 songs and 4 short baroque-style pieces for keyboard.

          I then WISHED (though did not believe) that my father was looking down on me from heaven and would be very pleased at my accomplishments in music.

          Somewhat more than 20 years after his death I attended a church which had a large and powerful pipe organ — in fact the largest in my area of Sydney. I was permitted to practise on the organ whenever I liked and it was an awesome experience to be at the controls of this marvellous instrument.

          And now I come to the point of this post. One morning about half a dozen of us were holding a prayer meeting at the front of the church adjacent to the organ. I started to tell the other people my thoughts about how my father would be pleased and proud of me.

          But I couldn’t even complete the first sentence. I broke down into uncontrollable sobbing.

          My take on this, after the sobbing settled down, was that I had been carrying an unconscious burden of guilt because my father had died thinking of me as a failure.

          But then again it may just as likely have been that I had NEVER grieved over his death.

        • #3121998


          by ldyosng ·

          In reply to thank you


        • #3121980

          Hello ..

          by stargazerr ·

          In reply to Namaste

          May I ask, why have you written Namaste in the middle of a post about Death ??

          Are you indian by any chance??


        • #3127746

          Because us_g,

          by ldyosng ·

          In reply to Hello ..

          It means that the spirit in me acknowledges and respects the spirit in Justa. I had written her a heart-felt message and she thanked me. It seemed the appropriate thing to do at the time.

          Why do you ask?

        • #3127719

          Does that mean ..

          by stargazerr ·

          In reply to Because us_g,

          that Namaste is associated with spirituality …?? Pardon my ignorance, I am a spirit and spirituality illiterate ….

          I ask because I am an Indian, and it was good to see a word in my own language .. (I have been feeling lower than a grasshopper’s knee, lately 🙂 )


        • #3128577

          Ah! us_g

          by ldyosng ·

          In reply to Does that mean ..

          I don’t know if the origin is spiritual, but the current usage in the U.S. is very definitely spiritual.
          Sorry my first reply to you was a bit clipped. I made a comment on a thread about France and was nearly roasted, so I was leery of the question about my race.
          No – I’m not Indian. I’m mostly Scott, German and Irish. It’s too bad you are feeling so low. I hope it passes soon and you find peace and comfort instead.

    • #3123173

      Reply To: Death

      by advancewithit ·

      In reply to Death

      If you have no spiritual belief in the afterlife then life is nothing more than a desperate struggle towards oblivion. I’m sure life is more than that.

      Read Dannion Brinkleys ‘Saved By The Light’ for a fantastic firsthand account of what happens to us when we die.

      • #3123152

        another book about that

        by stargazerr ·

        In reply to Reply To: Death

        is LIFE AFTER LIFE …. it has real life experiences of what happened to people who had clinically died, but were revived again…..

        Fantastic Read ….

      • #3123108

        “what happens to us when we die”

        by neilb@uk ·

        In reply to Reply To: Death

        We’ve had this discussion before.

        Just because you think that there “has to be more” and you like what is said by one man who publishes a book about what he says happened to him doesn’t make it true.

        Even BlackPanther didn’t stoop so low as to quote Dannion Brinkley! (If this is the same Dannion Brinkley who, during his NDE, had a whole bunch of visions about what would happen in the future. Well, he was wrong!)

        Is this the Christian afterlife, the Muslim one, Buddhist reincarnation or something about which all religions are ignorant?

        Anyway, so far, none of my relatives, friends and aquaintances who have died have given me any indication that there’s anything else. Trust me, there would have been nothing a few of my religious aquaintances would have liked more!

        I’m waiting…

        • #3128308

          Believe what you want

          by advancewithit ·

          In reply to “what happens to us when we die”

          I read ‘Saved by the Light’ in 1994 and since then I have personally witnessed the passing of two of Dannion Brinkley’s visions.

          The first was his vision of DNA being used in microchips. In his vision he states he witnessed a Middle Eastern scientist combine DNA with a microchip. This actually happened since I read the book and the process has been documented in Nature magazine. The scientists that made the breakthrough were from Israel.

          He also saw a vision of nuclear submarines rusting off the coast of Norway spilling contaminants into the sea. Again, I have read about this since the book was published and I believe it may even be an international environmental issue now.

          If you take into account that his visions were documented from 1975, and none of them had actually come to pass when the book was first published, then you have to ask – how did he know this?

          There is no doubt that the guy died (he was clinically dead – he has a death certificate to prove it) and some of his visions have definitely come true.

          So, if he didn’t visit the afterlife to get this information, where was he when he was dead?

        • #3128118

          And I choose not to believe Dannion Brinkley

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Believe what you want

          For the skeptic, there is never enough proof; for the believer, proof is not needed.

          But, I must admit, I really admire this guy and such supporters as yourself. Of his prophesies, most [b]have not[/b] come true.

          Dannion was “given” the prophecy that America would be economically bankrupt by the year 2000. Ooops! [b]That didn’t happen[/b]. That doesn’t put his supporters off, whose logic goes:

          [i]”Since this prophecy didn’t occur, we can conclude that something prevented this prophecy from occuring.”[/i] Well, I’m following this so far. [i]”The purpose of prophecy is never for it to be fulfilled. It’s purpose is to change the future”.[/i] Hello! I can follow this, So Dannion did something and saved us all? [i]”Somehow this prophecy given to Dannion was diverted by some unknown factor”.[/i] Oh, so not Dannion? [i]”All we know for sure is that this prophecy was successful in that it didn’t come to pass”.[/i]

          Wow! I’d like to get me some of that! Dannion has an NDE and meets the Gods and to prove it he makes some prophesies and around five percent come true. Then he writes a book and makes a fortune out of mugs like you. Then, when he misses a real biggie like the one above, we get “This prophecy was successful in that it didn’t come to pass”.

          OK, I think I’ll try that line on my boss.


          Neil 😀

        • #3129630

          Fair enough, but…

          by advancewithit ·

          In reply to And I choose not to believe Dannion Brinkley

          I notice that your argument is focusing on the prophesies that haven’t come to pass, which is fair enough. You really would have to be a mug to believe in something that didn’t happen.

          However, could you please explain your reasoning why you reject the evidence of the ones that have come true?

        • #3129597


          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Fair enough, but…

          I’m reasonably intelligent – this is how I would do what Dannion did.

          I would study political, economic and scientific pundits and gather together what they think will happen in the next ten or twenty years from the basis of their epertise – which is obviously much greater than mine.

          I would then disguise these up a bit with some mystic bollocks and put them forward as my “prophesies” in the hope that my “experts” wouldn’t be too far wrong. Being aware of the gulliblity of the general public and their absolute need to believe there is something more than their little lives, I would anticipate that my “prophecies” would be well received. Hey! I’ve got ten years before anyone can check!

          As it happens, I would firstly be seriously annoyed at how many didn’t work out (bloody experts!) and then pleasantly surprised at the mental gymnastics of my followers in explaining why I’m so crap at this considering my “divine” help!

          Call me a cynic if you want but [b]that[/b] is my reasoning. The key word, by the way, is “reasoning”.

          I believe the word “mug” was mentioned.

          Neil 😀

        • #3129553

          Ok, you’re a cynic

          by old guy ·

          In reply to Reasoning…

          That was a good parody, though.

        • #3120990

          Who’s the mug here?

          by advancewithit ·

          In reply to Reasoning…

          Yes, the word ‘mug’ was mentioned .. by you:

          Quote (neilb):

          “Wow! I’d like to get me some of that! Dannion has an NDE and meets the Gods and to prove it he makes some prophesies and around five percent come true. Then he writes a book and makes a fortune out of mugs like you.”

          Your reasoning is interesting, but exactly how much information about future technology did Dannion have access to in 1975? He couldn’t exactly access the internet could he, and his local library was unlikely to have volumes on the proposed binding of DNA with a microchip, or the threat of rusting nuclear subs off the coast of Norway. If anything, I would have thought the most likely ‘predictions’ woudl have been little green men from the moon invading earth.

          And who in 1975 would have thought America could be in fiscal hot water? Nobody, but that’s the reality today.

          Further to my counterpoint, let’s assume Dannion is (or was) a ‘reasonably intelligent’ person like yourself. Why would a reasonably intelligent person risk ridicule and humiliation on an international scale by publishing a book about their experiences in the afterlife, and making predictions based on that experience? Financial gain? Maybe. But what is Dannions true legacy? A charitable, compassionate movement dedicated to alleviating suffering in this life. What bad has come from his book? How is he exploiting anybody?

          If his accounts are fabricated then to what end has this ‘fraud’ robbed anyone of anything? The truth is, it hasn’t. For those who choose to believe, it gives strength, courage and hope and adds to their spiritual wealth. For those who choose not to believe it adds nothing, but then takes nothing away either.

          It is a shame you have no spiritual belief right now because there will come a time in life where you need it.

          To quote Gladiator:

          ‘Death smiles at us all. All a man can do is smile back’.

          Those of us with spiritual belief are smiling! 🙂

          Are you?

        • #3120981

          Mug? Not me!

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Reasoning…

          Last post on this. It’s getting boring.

          If any rational person gives a charlatan money by buying his books or otherwise gives his views credence by not questioning then they truly hurt those people who are less easily able to pick out the reality of what is being done.

          In no way do I denegrate anyone’s spiritual beliefs. You are entitled to believe in anything you want. [b]But[/b]! I reserve the right that, if anyone with such beliefs posts – on a public forum – such as the “gospel according to Dannion Brinkey”, to Google and then draw my own conclusions. Which I did – and then I posted them.

          Really, you started the whole thing by posting your full-page advertisement for Mr. Brinkley. You put forward his “prophesies” as proof of the “spirit world”. I treated your post as I do any other advertisement and I checked up on the product.

          I’d answer your points if I thought it would benifit anybody but instead I’ll just suggest that anyone who cares to can investigate for themselves.

          Should the “Spirit world” exist then I will see you there whether I want it or not. So be happy!

          Neil 😀

          p.s. As for where he got his prophesies from – “how much information about future technology did Dannion have access to in 1975”. Do you think it was the dark ages? People knew things before the Internet. We had things called “Libraries”. Read a few books, economics forecasts, political forecasts, science fiction. You could get plenty of material from there.

    • #3123155

      Every life makes a difference

      by martin_ternouth ·

      In reply to Death

      Every life makes a difference. We all remain largely unaware of
      the difference we make, but the smallest gesture of kindness
      can have vast consequences long after the act has been
      forgotten. Grief is a measure of how much difference the life
      departed has made to us.

    • #3123105

      Do women handle the death of a loved one differently than men?

      by dmambo ·

      In reply to Death

      My wife lost her father shortly after we were married and I think the loss affected her day-to-day activities more and for longer than my parents’ death affected me. Of course there were many differences in circumstances, but I know the two of us handle these things differently.

      As I read the reponses here, it seems that women externalize their grief more than men. Is it just my perception, or is there really a difference?

      • #3123090

        Not essentially !!

        by stargazerr ·

        In reply to Do women handle the death of a loved one differently than men?

        Me and my brother, for example, are complete opposites of the Man Woman phenomenon … He grieves more than I do …

        But yes, I think, in most cases, women do tend to grieve more than men …

        • #3122143

          I agree

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to Not essentially !!

          In general, men think they aren’t supposed to, or aren’t allowed to, show emotions. We hold things inside. That’s pretty common knowledge and is the subject of many a jokes about the differences between the sexes. In my opinion, that might be one reason why women tend to live longer. Bottled up emotions aren’t very healthy. We’re all human. We all have the same feelings. Sadness, happiness, etc. Why would men be less sad than a woman when a loved one dies?

        • #3123269

          Your right

          by antuck ·

          In reply to I agree

          I think women are taught to realize there feelings more then men. I remember when my brother died and my Grandfather yelling at me because I was crying. He told me we are men and need to be strong for the women. I was 16 at the time and didn’t know what to do. I went to my room finished crying and came up with that stong feeling Gramps said I should have. And still feel that way today.

        • #3127718

          Is that also the reason for

          by stargazerr ·

          In reply to I agree

          Hair Loss and pot bellies in men?? Bottled up emotions (like hot air) cause you to blow up … and the hair to pop out of your head … 😀

          Sorry, My imagination runs away with me ..


        • #3127587


          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to Is that also the reason for

          That’s an excellent theory. I’m going to start crying every day to test it out. If I’m hairy as a gorilla and am anorexically thin by the end of the year, we’ll know that this theory has some merit. Then I’ll publish it in the Journal of the American Medical Association and reap millions from my discovery. Probably will even be nominated for a Nobel Prize.

        • #3127566


          by stargazerr ·

          In reply to Hmm

          I think we have the Nobel prize in the bag .. We can use the money to do some research on what to do with the wiper blades …


        • #3128672

          Nobel prize money

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to Muuaahaaahaaahaa

          I have to share the money? I think any man that voluntarily commits to baling his eyes out every day for a month should garner all the proceeds from his humiliating adventure. He should also be committed to an insane asylum.

        • #3128572

          Course you have to share the money ..

          by stargazerr ·

          In reply to Muuaahaaahaaahaa

          The theory is going to help you live longer … you bale your eyes out for a month and get rid of all your bottled up emotions …


        • #3129070

          Since I’ll be living longer

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to Muuaahaaahaaahaa

          I’ll need more money to support myself in old age. I’ve been planning to go out in a blaze of glory as soon as I can get my rocket ready so I hadn’t been investing for my retirement. So therefore, I will need all the Nobel money to support my noble balling experiment.

        • #3128985

          In that case …

          by stargazerr ·

          In reply to Muuaahaaahaaahaa

          Lets make the share 49-51 …. instead of the even 50-50 …

          I need the money because I have to figure out what to do with the wiper blades…Besides, if I am going to be lighting a match under you rocket … I need to leave some money to my future kids, in case your contraption blows up …


        • #3128952

          You’re a tough negotiator

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to Muuaahaaahaaahaa

          except I’m tougher. 😀

          The wiper blades — I thought you’re going to give them to me for my rocket. If you have extras, sell them on eBay. Or better yet, sell them outright to the Smithsonian Museum or to NASA. The Smithsonian will want some remnant of my historic mission just like they have the original lunar module for public display. NASA will want the blades for whatever they plan to waste our tax dollars on next.

          If my rocket blows up — if these are in fact future kids that you are talking about, you won’t have to leave money for them because my rocket will have blown you up before you’ve had them. If I don’t launch until after you’ve had them, then bring them along to the launch party so they’ll blow up with you.

        • #3128940

          By the way,

          by stargazerr ·

          In reply to Muuaahaaahaaahaa

          You are only going to be crying for a month … we (women) have been bawling for centuries .. We have evolved that way … so I am still going to be living longer than you …

          As for me blowing up … I am using the wiper blades as an extension, so I will be far enough away.Even if your contraption does blow up in my face, I might get away with a missing nose … I am going to need plastic surgery …

          I can do you a favor though .. I can give you $10 for a haircut after the month is over 😀


        • #3128802

          Well, OK, because I’m a nice guy

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to Muuaahaaahaaahaa

          and because you’ll need plastic surgery to buy a new nose, I’ll split it with you. How’s a 92% to 8% split, sound? I won’t be needing the $10 for a haircut. Even if I do not go out in a blaze of glory and I return to earth, I will have all the hair burned off my head from the fire on the sun.

        • #3128782

          If you think I will go down without a fight

          by stargazerr ·

          In reply to Muuaahaaahaaahaa

          You are right 😀

          Lets make it 90-10 .. and we are even …

          Out of the goodness of my heart, I will even let you take my pink fluffy slippers to wear as earmuffs..


        • #3129432

          Let’s do 88-12

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to Muuaahaaahaaahaa

          instead of 90-10 if you’ll keep the pinky fuzzy earmuff slippers.

        • #3129312

          You break my heart !!

          by stargazerr ·

          In reply to Muuaahaaahaaahaa

          But I can have another operation with my share of the money …. :^O


        • #3129128


          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to Muuaahaaahaaahaa

          Just don’t overdo it when you’re retooling that other body part. 😀

        • #3127130

          I wondered ..

          by stargazerr ·

          In reply to Muuaahaaahaaahaa

          how long would it take our resident rocket scientist to realize that 😀

          Did you try out your star wars name?? I started out a Friday Yuk .. Join IN ..


          P.S … I will torture you in to taking my pink fluffy slippers (earmuffs??) .. They really want to see the sun, you know

        • #3127088

          Send your earmuff slippers to Arizona

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to Muuaahaaahaaahaa

          or Nevada where the sun shines 345 days a year. I’ve done a lot of humiliating things in my time but donning pink fuzzy earmuff slippers would be a new low. The torture part would be fun though 😉 so you’ll have to think of a different tactic to coerce me into coming within 10 feet of anything pink and fuzzy and wearable.

          My Star Wars name:

    • #3123102

      A death changes everything for some

      by ginger ·

      In reply to Death

      I lost a husband and a parent within 6 months of each other. Both had done the long drawn out waltz with death through cancer. I was their care taker, advocate and the role changes in these relationships are too numerous to mention. I had kids to care for, a job and the daily living that goes on with or without us.
      I don’t consider my own mortality much. Like someone said–I consider it when it is an immediate presence and I am grateful I passed thru whatever threatened me at that time.
      My priorities and values are very basic and simple–be the best person I can be and live life doing no harm to others as best I can.
      My spirituality shifted from the good practicing catholic to a belief system that is based on karma and trusting in a Higher Authority to take care of the things I cannot.
      My own personal identity was lost and scattered for a number of years–I was, afterall, my mothers daughter and my husbands wife, his best buddy. We shared everything to the exclusion of others and I found myself without a ‘rudder’ when he left me.
      Its been some years now–my kids are ‘cool’ decent people. I have remarried and my partner has added a new dimension to me but I think I will always feel somewhat ‘detatched’ as I move thru life. I don’t cry anymore. I don’t feel that crushing sadness. It does change. It does get better and different but I believe it is a time of my life I need to always remember and feel because it keeps me ‘real’ somehow.
      My thoughts are with you.

      • #3128542

        thank you

        by justathought ·

        In reply to A death changes everything for some

        Hi Ginger,

        Thank you for sharing your experience with me, the lost of personal identity is I guess what surprised me the most, I just did not recognised the person I thought I was.
        Slowly I am rediscovering myself, but I am different now, and of course all we can do is try to do the best we can and take each day as it comes

    • #3122863

      Look at it from their perspective

      by dc guy ·

      In reply to Death

      It can be helpful to try to imagine what the person who died would tell you if you could talk to them. Or just contemplate your own death and how you would want people to react to it.

      I will NOT want people, no matter how close they are to me, to get drawn into despair. Think about me fondly if they wish, get together and swap stories and memories, contrast the world with me and the world without me, sure.

      But I don’t want anyone to withdraw from their own life and become less than a whole person. That would not honor my memory, that would make me responsible for a terrible tragedy that I was by definition unable to do anything about.

      I have lost my share of close ones, and when it happens I always talk about it with my first dog, who died many years ago. You can have a conversation with a dog that you might not be willing to have with another person because dogs never judge you.

      When your dog dies (and this is a serious dog person speaking here so pay attention) you feel bad and you miss him. But “dog” is not just an identity, it’s a job. When any job becomes vacant, it must be filled. You still need someone to keep the sofa in shape when you’re too busy to do it, to tell you how silly you are, to remind you of life’s priorities. So you get a new dog and he makes you happy without lessening your love for the old dog.

      People aren’t so different. They each perform a service in your life and if one of them leaves to take a job in Estonia or simply dies, you still require that service.

      No dog does the job quite the way the previous dog did, but you get adjusted to each other. No one can relate to you the way a spouse or parent or child or sibling did, but you need to fill that gap in your life with SOMETHING. This is one situation in which it’s okay to fill a round hole with a square peg. Eventually you won’t be so conscious of the shape of the hole because you’ll appreciate the qualities of the peg.

      I know that all of my dear departed dogs would be glad to see that I’m not still consumed with grief, because all they ever wanted for me was to be HAPPY. And they would feel downright HONORED to find that I found what they added to my life to be so utterly essential that I still need someone to keep doing it.

      That’s the way I feel about my friends and loved ones. I want them to be happy now, and when I’m gone I still want them to be happy. And if they find someone new to provide what I provided, it must mean that what I provided for them turned out to be really important and that makes me feel good too.

      Celebrate your loved one. Respect their wishes by continuing to live the life they wanted you to have. And honor them by allowing yourself to admit that the spot they filled in your life was so important to your happiness that you can’t leave it empty.

      • #3122003

        The disappearing cat

        by jardinier ·

        In reply to Look at it from their perspective

        Some 20 years ago I was living in Kings Cross, Sydney, and only visited my mother’s place briefly twice a week to do my washing or mow the lawn etc.

        My cat “Smokey” — the best friend I ever had and the most intelligent person I have ever known — apparently for her own emotional preservation became quite aloof because I only visited briefly twice a week instead of being there all the time.

        One day there was a phone call for me at the Wayside Chapel (mission centre developed by Rev Ted Noffs for anyone who doesn’t already know) and it was my mother to say that Smokey had disappeared. Well I was shattered and my mother said she felt sick in the stomach.

        HOWEVER, Smokey showed up four days later apparently none the worse for wear. I assumed she must have wandered into someone’s shed or garage and been locked in inadvertently.

        In due course the day arrived when she had to be put done because she had developed a hernia and was too old to handle anaesthetic.

        There were other cats of course but NONE could fill Smokey’s shoes.

        And here is a wonderful example of an animal?s intuition. Smokey always slept on my bed and tried to snuggle up close, restricting my movement, so I would shove her down to the end of the bed. Two days before Smokey was put down ? and it was not planned because she had not yet developed the hernia ? she insisted on getting in under the sheets and bedclothes. She had never done this before so I assume she knew she was going to die and wanted to be especially close to me for those two nights preceding her death.

        • #3128539

          animal intuition

          by justathought ·

          In reply to The disappearing cat

          I can relate to the story of Smokey, I had a similar experience with my retriever last year, somehow he knew the end was near and would follow my every step as if he wanted to say goodbye.

          I am at present living with 4 dogs and 2 cats and there is no need to tell you how much each of them are special, they bring a ray of sunshine into my life

    • #3128762

      You know..

      by maecuff ·

      In reply to Death

      I just got terrible news from my mother and have spent the last hour staring blankly at my monitor. I opened up tech republic and see this thread. My sister’s husband’s twin brother has just been killed in a car accident. 31 years old.

      I wish I knew that there was an afterlife. It just really doesn’t make any sense to me. It seems to make as much sense to believe in the Easter bunny or Santa Claus. I wish I DID believe in it.

      • #3128756

        My condolences

        by dmambo ·

        In reply to You know..

        Please accept my condolences for your family’s loss.

        • #3128751

          Thank you.

          by maecuff ·

          In reply to My condolences

          It’s very sad and so stupid. He always drove like an idiot. I can’t tell you how many times I told him that he would kill himself or someone else if he didn’t stop. Now two people are dead and one is critically injured. My son was very close to him and he’s not handling it very well. I feel bad for him and bad that I can’t do anything to ‘fix’ it for him.

      • #3128729

        Oh Mae ..

        by stargazerr ·

        In reply to You know..

        I am so sorry … I lost my uncle the same way … the best a mum can do at such a time (from experience) is to just be there

        • #3128726


          by maecuff ·

          In reply to Oh Mae ..

          I’m coming around. It just took me by surprise. I’m not too good at the whole ‘death’ thing. I hate being reminded that people I love are mortal.

      • #3128588

        My condolences

        by m_a_r_k ·

        In reply to You know..

        Mae, I’m a firm believer in heaven, an afterlife and an omnipotent, omnipresent God. No living person has any proof of any of that. I don’t even know how to explain why I believe in any of it. So if one believes in this, how do you explain why bad things happen? I believe all things happen for a reason. Unfortunately the reason is not for us mere humans to understand. I believe something good always comes from something bad. Somehow, some way, some where, some time, the death of your sister’s husband’s twin brother will affect someone in a positive way. The possible ways are infinite. And it may not even be obvious. It probably WON’T be obvious. Some people can chalk it up to coincidence. If you stop and think about it, a lot of good things happen in our life that are the product of “coincidence”. I call it the mysterious workings of an omnipresent God.

        Two central themes of the Bible are humility and faith, which are actually two sides of the same coin. I believe that ALL good things and bad things are a test given to us by God. Heck, all of life for us rudimentary humans is a test. Good things are a test of humility. Do good things happen to me because I’m so great or because my omnipotent God is guiding me along the right path? Bad things are a test of faith. When things are really lousy, am I going to give up my faith or am I going to hang in there and rely on my omnipotent God to help pull me through? We have free will in how we respond to events in our life. The road signs are there. It is up to us to follow the right path. Even the saintliest saint often chooses the wrong path. I’m not even close to a saint. I choose the wrong path–the path of least resistance–way too often. I’m going to have one helluva lot of explaining to do to my God when I die. If God is keeping score, my score is negative. But I digress…

        To make a long story short, this belief helps me ride through tough times. Yeah, tough times still suck and can be terribly painful and can make me seriously question God’s intentions. But getting through a tough time makes me a stronger person. And through it all, I believe there’s a grand plan that I’m a part of even though I’ll never understand it until I do get to heaven.

        • #3128794


          by old guy ·

          In reply to My condolences

          I realize that most of you seem to know each other fairly well through these discussions and maybe I should have introduced myself a couple of months ago when I started reading and posting in here. All that said, Mae, I, too, offer my condolences on your loss.

          After reading all the posts here I would like to expound somewhat on what Mark has said. I too believe in Heaven and a loving, omnipotent God. I also, believe in and have my hope in Jesus in the Grace that He gives me to bring me to Heaven when I die. It is this hope that makes it easier to get through death of loved ones and the inevitable death of myself. (I am not trying to step on anyone?s different beliefs or trying to get any ?religious? arguments started.) This is my belief as well as a lot of other people?s belief. I can not imagine living my life not knowing, not believing, or not hoping in anything after death besides going home to Heaven. With that in mind, since this life on earth is only temporary then whatever happens here can not shake my faith. (for those of the same faith/belief) Knowing what Jesus paid for me then anything that I may suffer pales in comparison.

          I have lost my Mom and Dad over the years and I have lost about three of my teens from our Youth Group. I also worked in an emergency room for about 15 years as a medical assistant. Yes, I?ve been around death a lot and it is this hope that gets me through it.

          It was my daughter, when she was six years old, which really taught me how to face death. She and I were driving home from church one day and discussing our Christianity and all of sudden she said, ?Dad I can?t wait to die.? Can you imagine how that could shake a dad? However, I asked her why and she said, ?Because I want to hurry up and see Jesus.? Right then I learned how to live and what to look for. It was the beauty and love from a six year that taught me.

          Note: I was flamed in here once before because I spoke of my faith. To all: I am not trying to say this is the only way nor am I saying anyone has to believe in any of this. I?m just saying this is where I am as well as a lot of other people.

        • #3126827

          Reply To: Death

          by kj7gs ·

          In reply to Heaven

          Lost my wife a few years ago, and my take on it is that I don’t have a choice, if there’s no God then there is no hope for us at all, we’re all just carbon life forms sucking up time & space. To me that’s both preposterous and scary. If there is a God, then the whole theology goes with it, and even though you can’t explain all those bad things that happen in this world, what you do get is hope and tools to go on, and that alone is evidence to me of God’s existence.

          Good lesson from your daughter. I don’t necessarily want to hurry things along to go see Jesus myself, but I understand the point behind it: death simply loses its sting, and that goes back to hope, and I’ll take a positive outlook over a negative one any day.

        • #3128010


          by old guy ·

          In reply to Reply To: Death

          I can’t imagine losing my wife and, in a selfish way, I kind of hope I go first. But, as you pointed out the whole theology goes with it is absolutely correct. God could choose to snap His finger and make everything perfect but I feel that He chooses to work through people to help each other. That is part of the tools we get from God to make it through these devastating times. The hope of living in eternity with God far outweighs anything here.

          And, you did get the message about death losing its sting.


        • #3128203

          Well said

          by brewbaker ·

          In reply to Heaven

          And I would hope that you would continue to share the comfort that you have in our Jesus. Some believe and some don’t. I too can look forward to the day of my death with great anticipation and gladness (hope it’s not painful though) because of my faith.

      • #3128576


        by ldyosng ·

        In reply to You know..

        My condolances to you and your family.

      • #3128545

        sorry for your loss

        by justathought ·

        In reply to You know..

        I am sorry about your loss, I know what you and your family are going through right now, grief can be overwhelming.

        I wish you and your family all the strengh for the days ahead

      • #3128529

        Sincere condolences Mae

        by gadgetgirl ·

        In reply to You know..

        Thoughts and prayers with you and yours


      • #3128491


        by neilb@uk ·

        In reply to You know..

        Not a lot any of us can do but offer our sympathy.


      • #3128485


        by maecuff ·

        In reply to You know..

        I’m not looking forward to going home for the funeral. My sister and I had a falling out last Spring, if nothing else, perhaps this will be what it takes to be friends again.

        • #3128451

          Like I said

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to Thanks

          [iu]”My sister and I had a falling out last Spring, if nothing else, perhaps this will be what it takes to be friends again”[/i]

          All things happen for a reason. And something good comes from all things that are bad.

          BTW, one of my brothers and I had a falling out years ago so I know what that’s like. It sucks to not even be friends with a close family member. I hope you two can reconcile your differences.

        • #3129102

          I would have hoped

          by maecuff ·

          In reply to Like I said

          for a less extreme event. But, if anything good can come out of it, the better. Actually, it’s been me who has been holding the grudge. I’m actually not one to hold a grudge ever, but she really hurt me.

          My older son got caught with an illegal substance, which scared and upset me horribly. (Even though it was NO worse than anything I did at his age). Anyway, my sister had a fit over it. She said that if my son was at our mother’s house, that her daughter couldn’t be there. Zach loves his cousin whole heartedly and would never do anything to endanger her. That pissed me off, but on top of that, she told our other sister that the whole family would be better off if I had never been born. Thus negating my life and the lives of my children. I’ve had a difficult time letting go of that one. I know that she said it out of fear (even though she blew everything WAY out of proportion) and I’m sure she didn’t mean it..but damn..that was pretty harsh.

        • #3129076

          I wish mine was so easy to pinpoint

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to I would have hoped

          Gosh, I don’t mean to underrate the issue between you and your sister and of course I know nothing about past history between you two, but it sounds like she was being very petty and she was just waiting for something to hold against you. Illegal substances are bad but she overreacted. Does she think your son is the only kid who has ever been caught with illegal substances, much less use them? And none of her daughter’s friends have ever used them?

          At least you have one event that you can work from to reconcile with your sister. I can’t even pinpoint one event or issue between my brother and I. We’re just very different people. We never have gotten along. One of us should be the better man and quit acting like immature idiots and start acting like brothers. For years I’ve had this nagging feeling that it is going to take a catastrophic event to bring us together. That nearly happened a few years ago when he gave the family some pretty bad news about himself. We reconciled temporarily, but like happens so often, it didn’t last. When I was married my wife tried to bring us together, but since I got divorced, I don’t have her around as an impetus to force me into at least communicating with him on occasion.

        • #3129064


          by maecuff ·

          In reply to I wish mine was so easy to pinpoint

          Her daughter is only 3, so it would be somewhat troubling if she were already involved in troublesome activities beyond sticking things in sockets.

          My sister is a very harsh, opinionated and somewhat militant person, so it isn’t out of character for her to be cruel. It’s funny, because our father was not a nice man and she is the one out of the three of us who holds the biggest grudge against him, and she is also the one who is most like him.

          We are also very different, but once we were both in our 20’s, we pretty much accepted the differences and got on with life. She’s 38 now and has mellowed quite a bit with age, however, if she gets upset, the claws come out. I understand about being a ‘mama bear’ when it comes to my neice, I am also extremely protective of my children (as are most parents) however, that protection extends to my neice as well, I would have never reacted that way if the roles had been reversed.

        • #3128960

          I understand what you feel

          by stargazerr ·

          In reply to Well

          My Dad has differences with his brother (my uncle), hence we dont get along with our cousins … One of my cousins came over for a festival once and I was so happy (I foolishly thought, that maybe she wants to settle the differences) but she went back to hating us the next day …

          This has been going for 20 years and no one has mellowed with age … Dad says it will be ok someday, but I doubt it …

      • #3127850

        Mae it is only natural to grieve for the loss of someone close.

        by sleepin’dawg ·

        In reply to You know..

        It is sad when we lose friends and loved ones regardless of what our belief systems are. It is something we just have to go through. However, instead of surrendering to grief you might try to think of rejoicing in having known the person and celebrate the times and pleasure that your knowing him brought you.
        My condolences to you and yours on your loss.

        [b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

    • #3126867

      Dear Justa

      by lanre ·

      In reply to Death

      I read ur initial question with much interest, but my reading of a lot of the discussion reavealed a shallow depth which should make one sad.

      I read somewhere that our idea about death can define to a large extent our beleif in life and how we live it.

      When you think of death and the fac that your current existence must end, should trigger the question of why you had to exist in the first place. And if you allow your self some thought to this, then you may comee to realise that, there must be a purpose and we are not just to live, be mery and die…that, i must say is the elixr of fools

      When you then get to this stage, you may find it comfortable that if you can find a real purpose in live, attempt to achive it, then the fear of the and will not be too criplling…even though u may grive for the loss of a lost one, the fact that a life well live should bring you joy that, there must be something more (better) COMING AFTER after……

    • #3126861

      Wondering if you filled some of your desires

      by razor1947 ·

      In reply to Death

      I am a male who lives in Romulus, Michigan. I am 58 yrs old, and on my fourth marriage. (I’m not braging)
      The subject of DEATH is more or less a final thought, that revisits us from time to time, and to some is unhealthy to dwell on. At this stage of my life, if death should come soon, I would be disappointed, and feel that I have failed in my venture. My venture being to find a woman to adore, love, and be my best friend.
      Love, friendship, and sex, with that special woman, has always been, and still is my deepest desire since I can recall.
      That is the only thing I truly wanted out of life.
      Weather it is imoral, unholy. or unacceptal, I’m still looking to fill my my deepest desire. You only go around one time in life, and it’s really not that long of a time span. For some reason I’ve always wanted an oriental woman, to share my life with.
      Call me crazy, but to have death knock on my door, before my desire is filled, would be a very unhappy being.(

      • #3128410

        You too?

        by jardinier ·

        In reply to Wondering if you filled some of your desires

        Thems is my sentiments also.

        I have had innumerable relationships. I messed up some potentially very good ones when I was young because I was raised in a home where there was no love, and I did not know how to consider another person’s feelings.

        I am now 64 and am pounding the pavement on the internet matchmaking highway. I will no doubt continue my quest until my desires are fulfilled or until death catches up with me.

        I also want an Oriental woman. I feel that Western women have largely lost their femininity (refer to another discussion started by “justathought.”)

        • #3126697

          Me Too

          by razor1947 ·

          In reply to You too?

          Yes sir,
          I’ve had it with the women, especially stste side. It’s all about #1 to them. I know all of arn’t that way, but I have no more trust in them now. They have spoiled the romance in it all. I’m 58 now and looking for my ASIAN woman.

    • #3126857


      by brian.harwood ·

      In reply to Death

      I know there is a God, and he’s the biblical Christian God. I know I am heaven bound. I know that death is just the end of our brief physical existence and the start of a spiritual eternal life.
      I hope you all make the right choice ‘cos it’s too late once you’re gone.

      • #3128096


        by beads ·

        In reply to END or BEGINNING?

        I find it ironic that your personalized icon is modeled after Thanatos, the greek incarnation of death. Also, mentioned as the first horseman of the appocolypse.

        – beads

      • #3128008

        Right choice

        by old guy ·

        In reply to END or BEGINNING?


    • #3126836

      Death is a gift

      by rubendlct ·

      In reply to Death

      As I looked into my computer screeen this cold morning, I saw the word “death” shining on it. I thought for a moment, and told myself ‘death is nothing, but a gift which end all suffering’. I look at death the very same way an actor or actress look at their “Oscars” for accomplishments in their careers; a tribute for something done well throughout our lives. We should not be afraid of death, for it is indeed the begining of our lives.

      • #3126799

        Death = rebirth

        by aalcausin ·

        In reply to Death is a gift

        Human being is transcends his instincts, lives beyond the body limits. When body limits ends (in death) then the beyond starts: that’s the rebirth.

      • #3128253


        by stargazerr ·

        In reply to Death is a gift

        We should not be afraid of death .. But not because it is a gift .. How do you know?? Have you ever died?? People say there is a beyond, but what exactly is that beyond?? Isnt it like leaping into the unknown??

        In your opinion death might end all suffering. I wont counter that, but in my opinion, death will take me away from all the wonderful things I have. People who I love and who love me, being the most important. We are mortal and we have to die .. but why look forward to it because you have a negative outlook to life?? Live life to its fullest … It is a wonderful thing …


    • #3128095

      Death is it real?

      by dhohensee ·

      In reply to Death

      If we believe that we are eternal, then is death a reality?

      My personal belief is that this life is a training ground for the next phase of life. There is no reason for the thought of “death” to affect my mortality or personal identity as I do not believe I am mortal.

      As for my my priorities, values, and spirituality; those are the focus of my training. The sooner I learn my lessons, embrace my life, and achieve the ability to be non-judgmetnal the sooner I will be out of here and on to the next experience.

      Live Life Like You Are Dying…(Tim McGraw) because we all are! Good luck on your journey!

      • #3128009

        Death, a reality?

        by old guy ·

        In reply to Death is it real?

        If you are referring to “I” as the spirit or soul then, yes, I agree that part is not mortal. However, these vessels we (our spirit/soul) live in will indeed die. Every morning when I get out of bed my body reminds me that it is getting old and broken down. 🙂

        I do look forward to the next experience–I believe it is for eternity in a spiritual existence with a loving God.

        BTW, that song is a good example for a lot of things.

        • #3127987

          God and I

          by dhohensee ·

          In reply to Death, a reality?

          Is there really a difference between I and the spirit? I think not. When my children were much younger, I used the analogy of our car and our body. I am just along for the ride in this body, I am my spirit.

          You really do understand!

        • #3127982

          Who are we?

          by old guy ·

          In reply to God and I

          For those who participate and hold to the Christian Faith: it suggested to me once that there are three parts to us. One, of physical body; two, our soul; and three, our spirit. They suggested that our soul is our consiousness–that which we think and feel (within our “heart”). It has also been suggested that our spirit is that which God has made and will return to Him. Also, that which communes through the Holy Spirit.

          Our soul is the New Man that we become when we become new in Christ. Our Spirit is renewed daily through the Holy Spirit.

          Yes, that who we are is “along for the ride” in this body and we make our choices for where we will be in eternity. As someone stated earlier, I hope that each one makes the right choice.

    • #3128045

      Life is Fatal

      by billh ·

      In reply to Death

      Each day you live is one day less you have to live (here anyway)

      My faith (Christian) tells me that there is much more promised than this life has for us. (especially if you are stuck working on computer systems as I am!)

      Of course, coming to grips with your mortality is a good thing (rather than living in ignorance of the fact that you will indeed die).

      This causes me to ask some tough questions that need to be answered…

      Does my life have (server) any purpose
      Why are we here?
      Where do we go when we die?

      I’ve seen many answers listed here but I have to say that many seem far too derived from “human” knowlege that may comfort but decieve.

      I beleive that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God and he created all, and has a plan for us – who acknowlege him.

      You may not agree, but you do have to deal (wrestle) with this idea.

      • #3127935

        Reply To: Death

        by razor1947 ·

        In reply to Life is Fatal

        Please don’t take this personaly. This whole thing is based on a personal level, as well as spiratual, and religious, and note my spelling isn’t that great.
        First of all there have been great minds before us, and there will be great minds after us.
        This whole subject about a supreme being, God, Jesus, or what ever name you care to fill the blank with, was thought up long ago by different races of people, as it was needed. Humans as they evolve, need a way to express sorrow, and to pass through agony. They need a single thread to hang on to, when all else seems hopeless.
        Without a belief so to speak of, people would do what ever they felt like doing, without the fear of God, so to speak. We are only human animals, not that far evolved. The key word is animals.
        Look how many humans have perished in the name of a God, or religion!! We have classed ourslves above the other animals, because we can think, and reason, so they say. People need to think that this is not the end of the line, speaking of morality. They can’t accept that what you have, and do in this lifetime is finial.
        Eating, sleeping, and sex, the same traits as our animal counterparts are all instilled in us.
        We beleive, what we want to beleive to sooth, and comfort ourselves. It has become a safe guard for most of us. It is not our fault, because we want to beleive. It is a need, a human need to do so.
        Take a good look at all the countries, and the people that lived in them, before us. They dealt with this subject the best way they could. The ones with a higher IQ, set a way to ease the pain, and give hope to the rest of them in that time frame. At this time in human existance, we have gained a lot of knowledge, and still we try to bend it to suit of needs, and beliefs. W@e have in most respects, overlooked our common horse sense. The truth is there, but we choose not to see it, because it is final, and puts our moritalty with the rest of the animals that we share this planet with.

        • #3128178

          Persecution or death in the name of a God or religion

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to Reply To: Death

          Razor, it is a very difficult thing for us humans to understand and to cope with. If there is a loving and all-powerful God, why do we suffer? No one knows all the answers for sure. We just can’t comprehend a power that much greater than ours. I said this is before, but I think all suffering and all happiness happens for a reason. Here’s a good example from history. In approximately 70 AD, only 40-something years after Jesus was crucified, Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans, and Christian believers and Jews were dispersed all over the Middle East and Southern Europe. Why would God allow this to happen to his believers when his religion was struggling in its infancy? At the time, I am sure it was pretty flabbergastig to the new Christians. But now it seems to make sense. It was an effective way to spread Christianity across the civilized world. Without that catastrophic event, Christians would likely have been isolated to the areas of what is now Israel and Jordan, and Christianity may have eventually died out. Unfortunately for us humans, persecution and suffering seems to be the tool that God often uses us for to do his work.

        • #3128147


          by old guy ·

          In reply to Persecution or death in the name of a God or religion

          I don’t believe that God causes us to be persecuted or to suffer. I fully believe that the suffering and persecution comes from Satan (yes, I know that will probably open up a whole other can of worms)but God causes good to come from all things. We may not be able to see at the time. Case in point, one of my teenage girls had cancer and went through the complete treatments. I fully hate to see kids suffer. However, because of this girl there are several hundred, and possibly over a thousand teens who have been helped because of what she went through. It was her faith in God that allowed her to teach many young people and adults alike how to deal with this. She never gave up in her faith and hundreds of us prayed for her. She not only made it to remission but has participated in a couple of beauty pagents and other public things.

          There are many other stories that once you look back at it you can see how God used that to help other people, or to help that person.

          Yes, God does discipline when we need it–just like a father does his children here. I really don’t think God hurts His children but loves us and hurts for us and works to turn that to good. Even if we don’t understand all the time.

        • #3129775

          A question we can’t answer

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to Suffering

          You mentioned this yourself when you said you hate to see kids suffer. Why do bad things happen to innocent people? Why would babies be born with physical or health problems? Or how about the many biblical referencs of good people suffering? Didn’t all of the original 12 apostles get killed or, worse yet, get tortured to death? Paul was the most prolific writer of the new testament, and other than Jesus, was most responsible for the spread of Christianity. He was killed by the Romans at a time in his life when he had so much more to give. Would God allow Satan to eradicate the most important person in Christianity? I think somehow his death was more inspirational than what he would have contributed had he kept living. Bad things happen for a reason and that reason has to be God’s alone. I don’t think God sees our pain the same way we do. The Bible says that we will never be given more than we are able endure. Your daughter is a great example. She suffered (probably immensely). You and her mom suffered through mental anguish. BUT hundreds of others have been touched and helped by that suffering. Your daughter never gave up her faith and from God’s point of view, he accomplished his mission. If she or your family would have given up and cried “Oh poor me!”, he would have given up on you and found someone else. I think our lives are controlled by a whole lot of “if” conditions.

        • #3129767


          by old guy ·

          In reply to A question we can’t answer

          I need to clarify that the teen I was referring to is one of my “kids” in our Youth Group. I have worked with teens for about 20 years and they are all “my kids”. I didn’t mean to leave the wrong info.

          First question: What’s the worst thing that could happen to someone? Die? No, that just allows me passage into eternity. Getting old? No, that puts me one year closer to where I’m going.

          Second question: Can Satan eradicate the most important person in Christianity? No, Christ is eternal. He was, He is, and He will be. Satan can’t touch Him–he’s already tried.

          You are correct, Paul was one of the most prolific writer of the New Testament. Look at how long his writings have lasted–almost 2000 years now. The Romans might have put him to death but still couldn’t stop the Gospel. Satan won’t either. Praise God!

        • #3129752

          My turn to clarify

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to Clarify

          Yep I misunderstood your reference to one of your “kids”. Doesn’t matter too much. I will assume that she had family members and/or close friends (including you, perhaps) that suffered along with her.

          And my turn to clarify. Of course Jesus is the most important person in Christianity. My reference to Paul was as the most important living person at the time. Another note about Paul. He had been a very evil fellow who persecuted, tortured and killed Christians. This evil guy was hand-picked to do some pretty extraordinary things.

          You gotta give ol’ Satan credit for one thing. He doesn’t give up. I guess his only goal is to take as many people with him as he can. Aren’t the end times preordained? Not specifics but generalities (assuming the interpretations of Revelations is reasonably accurate. No disrespect but John’s writing of Revelations seems like a description of an LSD trip.).

        • #3126663


          by razor1947 ·

          In reply to Clarify

          Here we go again. Have faith brother. Comforting to know that that you were there when all this happened. For a moment, I thought you were going to tell me to have faith, or the bible told me so.

          I guess you have to take what you need, and leave the hard facts behind. Simply amazing.

        • #3126535

          Yes, it is amazing, Razor

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to Clarify

          Maybe some day you will know how amazing it is.

        • #3126667


          by razor1947 ·

          In reply to A question we can’t answer

          If in doubt. (Have faith) The reply is as old as the ages.
          Why can we always look back on history, and other people suffering, and give reason for it??
          Everyone has answers, pulled from the Good book, but they fall short on the big questions!!
          Just have faith brothers & sisters !!

        • #3126676

          Re: In the name of God or religion

          by razor1947 ·

          In reply to Persecution or death in the name of a God or religion

          Mark, you sound like a very nice, as well as educated gentleman. If it brings you comfort to beleive in such, I understand, and I’m not trying to change your mind. Hind sight is 20/20. I just cannot bring myself to justify the torture, misery, and death associated with it. Mark I know nothing of your personal life, but if you did have a large family, could you put your love ones through such an ordeal?? Why of course not. That is your family, your children, your loved ones. You would try to do everything in your power to make them happy.
          I was always told that God was a loving God. To have a higher power, or God if you wish, put his own creations through such means, does not make sense in my little human mind, especially when we aew told that the reason it all started was a woman eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge, so to speak. For the most part, the whole idea was weaved into one book very cleveraly. It does have several issues that are unbeleivable to say the least. When questions arise on such issues, your told that you need faith to beleive them.
          A higher power, or a God is all knowing of all things to come, and all things in the past. Infinate wisdom and knowledge. I would imagine that would be rather uneventful to such a being.
          Are we made to go through all of this, to make things interesting to watch, or break up the boredom of such beautiful, and endless wisdom ??

          If it all was made up over time (The Bible) & (Relegion), and all these millions upon millions of people did not have to be put through such misery, pain and death over it, I would say that is was closer to a true, and beautiful belief.

          How about the big question Mark??
          Where did God come from ??
          Will things still fall under the same teachings on other worlds in our galaxie?
          So much to know, and understand, but there are no definate answers. (HAVE FAITH)

          I like, and do understand the old saying, which has a great deal of understanding, and truth in it.

        • #3126537

          We might never know

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to Re: In the name of God or religion

          razor, that is the second time today that I have been called a nice guy. I haven’t been called a nice guy twice in the last 12 months, and now I’m called nice twice in the same day! What in the world is up with that? And a gentleman? Yeah, I’ve jokingly referred to myself as a gentleman here on TR a lot of times so I’ll agree with at least half of your outlandish opening statement. 😉

          No living human knows any of the answers to your questions. I certainly don’t. I have the same questions. I can choose to believe or not to believe. I am not an expert on any of the things that you ask about. I know very little. Do you think my faith never wavers? It wavers often and I sin every day.

          I think the mistake that most people make is that we try to put God in human terms. A good analogy is when people assume that animals have the same thoughts and emotions that people do.

          On your question of would I willingly cause one of my loved ones to suffer. I’ll pose this question to you in return. Would you cut off an arm of one of your children in order to save his/her life?

    • #3128041

      What is your life worth?

      by geekgirlau ·

      In reply to Death

      In the last 12 months my sister-in-law lost her mother, and my partner lost an uncle, 2 aunts and his cousin. The death of his cousin was particularly hard – they were both the same age, and he died after a painful battle with cancer and leaving a 12-year-old daughter.

      I’m still grappling with my own spiritual beliefs, so I don’t believe I have any word of wisdom to offer on that score. However I do believe that the death of a friend or family member servers as a reminder to us that our time here is limited.

      It’s so easy to get caught up in the day-to-day business of living that we forget to actually live. When was the last time you showed your best friend how much they mean to you, whether by your words or actions? When was the last time you danced around the living room with your partner, not caring about how you looked or who might be watching, but just for the joy of it?

      Embrace your loved ones, express your feelings, do those things you’ve wanted to do forever but have been putting off until the “time is right”. Your time is here now!

    • #3127993

      Only the ghost can answer the death question, how-to find out..

      by kukong ·

      In reply to Death

      Only the ghost can understand the nature of death, because only the ghost have really experience of the word called death. It has a document show the way to find out, and how to understand the death appearance, here

      It appear to have a lot of interesting documentations and atleast it show some way to prove the mysterious of the mind.

    • #3127915

      Death Redux

      by poobah ·

      In reply to Death

      I’m 60. I was still pretty much in the indestructable stage of my existence until I had a heart attack. I’ve seen death; been a part of it, but nothing could touch me. I’ve done some rehab work but not enough yet. Now I’m back to indestructable and growing, mentally and physically.

    • #3127780

      Lavoisier Law

      by que_gerard ·

      In reply to Death

      Lavoisier was a French chemist (1743-1794) who stated in the Law of Conservation of Mass:
      “Nothing has been created, nothing has been lost but everything has been changed”.
      I think that death is not an end but a change.

    • #3128393

      for all of you

      by justathought ·

      In reply to Death

      I would like to thank all of you for sharing your own personal experiences and offering help by suggesting books, your own beliefs or simply words of comfort.

      I am moved by the way we all reached to each other

      Thank you all and my condolences to those who like myself have lost a love one.

    • #3128360

      Death is part of life

      by kahlmari ·

      In reply to Death

      It is the passage to the kingdom. We are not here to worry about death, read John 10:10. Believe and you will pass on and life forever.

    • #3129716

      One is almost there

      by domiles ·

      In reply to Death

      Learning that a heart condition would cut my life expectancy drastically has certainly changed my life.
      How does it affect the idea of our own mortality?
      Not in the least, but then I have been a Metaphysical Minister since 1981. My belief system is based on do no harm and a strong belief in Karma and reincarnation and free will.
      How does it alter our priorities and values in life?
      My priorities have become doing what I feel is important to ME! Things I can leave behind for other’s benefit and education, things that make me feel good – reading a good book when the laundry needs doing, eating what I please instead of following all the propaganda about eating for good health (I do eat a lot more healthy than most people on these fad tracks because I like healthy foods). I have given up trying to please others all the time and focus on me more because if I am happy and not stressed I have more energy to give to those who appreciate it.
      The impact on our spirituality, for those who hold beliefs? A major reaffirmation. The miracle of my continued existence long after my prognosed death and an actual improvement in my left ventricle long after it was considered medically possible has made my faith stronger. It has also given me much less tolerance for the religious right and their ever escalating “My way is the only Right way!”
      How does it affect our own “personal” identity?
      It has strengthened my sense of self, converted me (mostly because of severe financial & energy limitations)I dress for comfort (no tight stuff it impedes circulation, no fashionable winter wear only WARM, no sun dresses or sleeveless stuff – digitalis and sun guarantee sun stroke and poisoning. I no longer can be elegantly coiffed, hair in a semi – Gibson girl or long French braid, no makeup. Keep things simple. It is difficult for me to go visiting. I must keep my feet elevated or blow up like a balloon and turn purple and rush to the cardiac ward! If people want to see me they provide a foot stool or come see me! I am stronger emotionally and not as patient with ignorance and rudeness. I fight for what I want and need rather than hope my efforts will bring their own reward.

      • #3129695

        Leaking mitral valve

        by jardinier ·

        In reply to One is almost there

        I share your beliefs. I was admitted to hospital two years ago suffering heart failure: “water on the lung.”

        The surgeons wanted to cut me open but I said: “No thanks.” It is two years on and I am still here and have been able to reduce my medication drastically.

        And yes, I was faced with the reality of my own mortality for the first time.

        However as I share your beliefs, I am not afraid of dying although, as was mentioned earlier by ?sleepin?dawg,? I would not look forward to protracted pain.

        • #3126192

          not look forward

          by domiles ·

          In reply to Leaking mitral valve

          You brought up a good point.
          When I was admitted to the hospital, the cardiac unit was full to the max and I was put into a room with a woman in the last stages of congestive heart failure and while dealing with my own problems was given a full and all too detailed picture of the agony and frustration of my last days. Once the nurses realized how it was affecting me, they moved me into the hall. But it made me realize a few important things:
          Develop a good rapport with your cardiologist and make him your medical guardian. If he does no share your beliefs find another or appoint a like mined attorney as your medical guardian and make a living will. Discuss your wishes with you family.
          In my case, my daughter would keep me alive no matter what so I live in another state that will honor my living will and permit my attorney and cardiologist to make medical decisions for me if I am not able to communicate them.
          I have been blessed with two cardiologists that share my beliefs and will not prolong my life in a painful and vegetative state. Blessings on them both.
          We do not stay in these bodies for ever; we can do all the right things and get a virus that kills us slowly. But the mind has a great power over our bodies and that is what I think has kept us both functional useful people beyond our “expiration dates”.
          I have suffered the loss of my father when I was 6, a 21 year old brother (in auto crashes); the suicide of my husband and loss of his father (my best friend) and grand mother and my brother in one year! How did it change me? Not at all. I could not deal with it all at once and so did not permit myself to grieve for nearly 3 years. Then the changes were drastic. I followed my vocation rather than my profession. I developed a “family” of those people who truly cared about me and stopped knocking my head against the brick wall of rejection. The steps there after took me down many new paths and prepared me as best it could for the later development of my heart condition. What I learned from all of this was to dig under the rejection wall and re-establish relationships with the blood kin that counted. None of that would have been possible with out an understanding attorney and two really caring cardiologists.

        • #3124554


          by jardinier ·

          In reply to Leaking mitral valve

          I wouldn’t go near a medical specialist to “save my life” so to speak. I got such a runaround in the hospital that I would not voluntarily enter a hospital again.

          Firstly they only mentioned the aorta — I never heard the word “mitral” until six months later. The doctors strongly urged me to undergo surgery and replace the leaking valve. One young female cardiologist tried to frighten me into having the surgery by saying: “You will drown in your own body fluid and we DON’T practice euthanasia here.”
          I was also told the surgery carried a 5 per cent failure rate which was the main reason that I rejected it. A cousin of mine who is a very senior research medic said the failure rate would be more like 1 – 2 percent.

          They made a big to-do in the hospital of applying Aristocort to my lower legs and feet. I assumed this was something to do with releasing the fluid. I was told to continue this when I left hospital. After a while I noticed that the skin on my lower legs was looking thin like an elderly person.

          It was only then that I ascertained from my pharmacist that this was a cortisone drug and the ONLY application was for itching — a symptom I never suffered or complained of while in hospital. It took 18 months for the skin on my legs and feet to recover from the fragile state caused by the drug.

          I will not go near a specialist thank you. I get good advice from my GP and pharmacist and always discuss any advice I am given.

          As for euthanasia, I believe there is one state in Australia where this is legal. I will follow your advice and look into this.

          My pharmacist especially — who has known me for some 30 years — is strongly against letting doctors put the knife to you. I have been able to gradually reduce my medication to the point where all my electrolytes are within the normal range and I no longer suffer oedema or gout (side effects of the diuretics).

    • #3126657

      Oh death where is thy sting?

      by billy_rmartin ·

      In reply to Death

      How does it affect the idea of our own mortality?
      – This is always scary, uncomfortable, it is a guantlet for Christains such as myself. Reward on the other side, but not wanting to go through it.
      How does it alter our priorities and values in life?
      – I number my days, prepare for the end and those that will survuve me. It is a driver for building wealth to benefit my family afterward.
      The impact on our spirituality, for those who hold beliefs?
      – The sting of death is gone with Christ. Once death takes you it has no power over you forever. Your spiritual body then lives forever with Christ and the father.
      how does it affect our own “personal” identity?
      – It shapes who I am to the extent that I am equal with all. No matter who you are or your greatness, you die. It is the great equalizer for me, I cannot feel superior to those less fortunate and cannot feel inferior for those more fortunate. For we all have a casket awaiting us. The eternal coatman snickers and awaits us.

    • #3126542

      Another Facet

      by old guy ·

      In reply to Death

      There has been some great discussions and ideas presented here. I truly appreciate the thoughts and feelings that have been expressed in this discussion.

      I think that sometimes we dwell on just getting to the end in order to begin eternity, which is a great goal (actually, the ultimate goal), that we may overlook or not expound on why we are here.

      A couple of folks have said that they enjoy their life here and that’s good also. There are a lot of bad things that happen here on earth, personally and globally. However, there are a lot of great things that happen here. My wife & children are my greatest blessing here on earth and I am overwhelmed by their dependence on us while growing up. I’m also overwhelmed by the love and care of other people that they have personally now that they are beginning their adult lives.

      Having worked with teens for the past 20 years I have been blessed even more. I have seen more evidence of God in the lives and faces of these kids than most people get to see. Helping young people search and find the meaning for their lives and helping develop their own faith is tremendous.

      I have been blessed beyond measure with some of our friends and the love and caring that they have shown us and that they have received from us.

      Yes, living in this world, loving God, and living the Will of God through Jesus, with other people of like minds is a fantastic experience. Being able to share with other people their happiness, their joys, and yes, their sorrows and helping as many people as possible to find their way to Christ is about the most fun I can think of here on earth–at least for me and my family. It also helps when the bad things do happen to be able to have these resources to stand with each other?laughing, crying, encouraging, growing in faith.

      • #3124560

        With all do respect

        by frehen ·

        In reply to Another Facet

        Hey Old guy, how old if I may ask….

        I was raised being a christian, a catholic. I will not get into any discussion about religion or whatever. But although I was to believe that A god or A christ or A jesus was doing the right thing for us, I found the opposite.

        If I look back to my life sofar, I am 46, I cannot be happy with it. Don’t say that when I would have believed in god things would look different. I simply won’t believe it.

        I DO believe one has to believe in one’s own strenghth (I lost that now, for a moment I hope)
        and, as I always did, believe in my own handling of all kinda situations. I cannot now. God OR Jesus OR Christ cannot help me do it. I believe THAT one has to do it himself. I do not deny other people’s believe. On the contrary.

        If you are happy with doing the things you do, even feeling blessed with it (and I must say it really sounds good being confronted with youngsters and helping them find their way around this earth), it’s ok. Just don’t tell me it’s god’s work. It’s ok for you to believe that and I do not deny you to believe that, but I won’t buy it.

        It’s just that I have seen how religion can break things apart, as in my own family, as nowadays in
        the conflicts everywhere. If that is god’s will, it stinks, sorry to say.

        If there IS to wish something i wish that there will be no longer excist any believes and religions and that all people will believe that we are one of a kind personally and can relate to one another wothout any religion being able to confront.

        For now I call that wishfull thinking….

        • #3130463

          Reply To: Death

          by old guy ·

          In reply to With all do respect

          I am 51 years old and I?ve worked hard to get this old :).
          1. I was raised being a christian, a catholic. I will not get into any discussion about religion or whatever. But although I was to believe that A god or A christ or A jesus was doing the right thing for us, I found the opposite.

          My response: Unfortunately, ?religion? can be used to beat people over the head. There are a lot of people who get caught up in ?religion? instead of a spiritual relationship with God. All through the ages, particularly the Pharisees and Sadducees of the Old Testament, too many people have tried to use religion to control others. When that happens that takes God and Jesus out of the equation and puts man in charge.

          1. If I look back to my life sofar, I am 46, I cannot be happy with it. Don’t say that when I would have believed in god things would look different. I simply won’t believe it.

          My response: I?m truly sorry that you have experienced things that make you unhappy with your life. Primarily, our happiness is up to us. We make our own choices. If someone does something really stupid and hurtful to me it is my choice of whether to be angry or to turn it loose. If I choose to be angry it will hurt me more than the one I?m angry at. They leave and it?s over for them?I?m still angry. If I choose to let go of it then that person is not affecting me. I?m not saying it?s easy to do this, in fact, it?s quite hard sometimes.

          2. I DO believe one has to believe in one’s own strenghth (I lost that now, for a moment I hope) and, as I always did, believe in my own handling of all kinda situations. I cannot now. God OR Jesus OR Christ cannot help me do it. I believe THAT one has to do it himself. I do not deny other people’s believe. On the contrary.

          My Response: I really pray that you can find the strength to at least get you back on an even keel. However, in your statement, at least for me in my faith, you give the very reason that God is there. Whenever we try to do everything on our own most of us do lose that strength and fall down?hurt and lost, hopefully for only a season. I have seen too many times that God has helped, not only me, but a lot of other people to hold us up and give us the strength we need to get through the bad times. As I said earlier in this post, God could make everything perfect for us here just by speaking the word (actually I said by snapping His finger). However, I firmly believe that He chooses to work through other people by directing to us at just the right time to give us the inspiration and encouragement that we need. I have seen this happen too many times in my own life when I needed these people and I have been an instrument that God used to help other people.

          3. If you are happy with doing the things you do, even feeling blessed with it (and I must say it really sounds good being confronted with youngsters and helping them find their way around this earth), it’s ok. Just don’t tell me it’s god’s work. It’s ok for you to believe that and I do not deny you to believe that, but I won’t buy it.

          My Response: Twenty years ago I would have never thought or believed anyone if they said I would be working with teens now. (I am nothing great. I?m not very fascinating or charming?heck, I?m not even good looking-but that?s ok, I love my teens!) I don?t know of any other way I could have quit drinking and smoking at the same time (after smoking for about 20 years) and never even looked back and then two weeks later we became pregnant with my daughter. Three years later we had my son and about that time someone just invited me to sit in on one of the classes with the teens. A few weeks later I met one of the girls who was about 14 at the time. As soon as I shook her hand I knew there was something wrong deep inside. Long story short, my wife and I starting working with her and found out she had been sexually abused as a child. It took about two years to get her to the point of beginning professional help. There is no way I could have orchestrated all of that in any way.

          4. It’s just that I have seen how religion can break things apart, as in my own family, as nowadays in the conflicts everywhere. If that is god’s will, it stinks, sorry to say.

          My Response: I totally agree. ?Religion? can break things apart. It?s usually because the humans get in the way and want to run things themselves. All through the ages God has shown that is not what He wants. Not trying to be alienating or prejudiced, but the Catholic church, though probably has done a lot of good things have certainly done lot of bad things. Why do you think a lot of the Muslims hate us? The Catholic Crusades where they conquered and killed their opponents in the name of God, though really it was in the name of greed. If you were to beat and kill most of my people I would hate you too. No, I can not see it being God?s will for all this hatred and conflicts to exist.
          Again, as I stated earlier and I know it can open up a whole other can of worms, Satan is the one who orchestrates all of this greed, hatred, conflicts, immorality, etc. He hates all that is good and God is all good. (Sorry but it would take too much time and space to debate that in this forum. There?s just too much involved to discuss.)

          5. If there IS to wish something i wish that there will be no longer excist any believes and religions and that all people will believe that we are one of a kind personally and can relate to one another wothout any religion being able to confront.

          My Response: Actually it was an Army Staff Sergeant that told me that ?as long as there are two people on the face of this earth there will be a conflict.? I believe that but there can be some good things that come out of conflict as well as bad things. However, I keep coming back to the point that it is man that keeps throwing the wrenches into the scheme of things and messing it up.

          I apologize for this being so long and I hope that you who read this will read the whole and try to understand my sincerity in all of this.

          Once again, I don?t want to come across that I have all the answers or that this is the only way to live. This is what I believe through life?s experiences and through searching for Truth and my reason for being. I don?t preach ?church? or ?religion?. I try to share the love of God and the Grace of Jesus Christ who pays for my failures and sins and for that Grace to pave my way into Heaven. I can not do it my way or on my own. I screw up too much?just like everyone else. I don?t ask for everything to be wonderful and happy here on earth all the time or for no conflicts in my life. I believe through conflicts, if we make the right choices, then we can become stronger in our faith and dependence on the Grace of Jesus to help us. It?s the same as a gold wedding band. The gold has to be put to the fire to become as pure and beautiful as it is. I do believe that we need the church to help us. We need to recharge because the world (Satan) does try to beat us down. There is power in numbers. Just like in all families we don?t get along all the time and sometimes we fight among ourselves. It?s up to each of us though how we handle that.

          Frehen, it?s hard to get all of this across in an on-line discussion and I pray that God will reveal Himself to you for who He is not what religion says He is. And, I pray that He will send people into your life, as He has in mine, who can help encourage you and help you to search and find the Truth. I hope that you will decide to be open for those opportunities. No, everything won?t be hunkadorry (sorry, it?s a suthern, U.S. southern, thang) but the Joy that comes from God when we finally realize who He is that can not be taken away.

        • #3130205

          Well said

          by flynmonkey ·

          In reply to Reply To: Death

          I read both of your posts. Well said.
          There seems to be a lot of hurting techrepublic members. God is there for everyone all we have to do is turn to him and ask for help. Turning to Jesus does not make life go smooth or solve all of ones problems. What Jesus does do is help people through the hard times. We still have to try and persevere and he will do the rest.

          I truly enjoyed your posts. I pray that Frehen keeps an open heart and starts to seek after the the truth that is Jesus.

        • #3130154


          by old guy ·

          In reply to Well said

          as I said there is power in numbers and it’s good have other folks trying to encourage others as well.

          You are right about a lot of hurting TR members. My heart has ached for some of these folks while reading their posts.

        • #3124323

          Full respect old guy

          by frehen ·

          In reply to Reply To: Death

          I fully respect you old guy and appreciate your kind words. As I do others. I think it’s tremendous and did not expect to find help or listening ears here at TR.
          It is not common to put your misery online, still there are more TR-members whos have had their deal with life sofar.

          I cannot help it, but due to experiences in my life sofar I fell of my believes, they were never mine in the first place. They were put upon us by our parents, kinda forcing us to believe. Putting sanctions on not going to church and stuff like that. And once in church I see those people ask for money for third-world countries, while they drink their wine from gold cups and have marmer altars. Even as a child I found the contrast to big. Also, learning more as I grew older, it brought misery instead of joy, so I could not act different as to turn away.

          I do not blame my parents, though due to their fearful way of handling their faith, they grew quite a distance between them and us children. The catholic church had put such pressure on people to make as much children as possible (so the catholic church had more souls counted to be followers to their faith). It was common here in those days that my parents were young that the leader of the local church came by and asked to get more and more children. My mother got overstrain being pregnant six years at a row and lost the first child being a daughter. I totally disapprove of such mehtods. I pitty my parents that they fell for it, though I understand in their view they had no choice. It put a lot of tension in my family, which causes us, children to have troubles with life every day. My parents were not able to make us ready for life. We all had to find out the hard way how life is organized. One would suggest that it would make strong people out of us. Nothing less is true. We were not capable to bear arms.

          Other experiences learned me that faith is not my thing to hang on to, cause it would only bring pain and sorrow. So, their’s no way I will ever be a man like you old guy. As said I totally respect your feelings and dedication to faith, I hope you can do the same for me. That’s always the point with faith, I get people here at my frontdoor who try to push ttheir fait upon me. I can say no, respectfully, but they keep on coming again and again. So, respect is gone and I throw the door in their faces. They do not respect my feelings about tha matter.

          If God and christianity is the path for you, fine, be happy with it as you are. There’s no point in trying to make me believe again that faith brings joy, that fact is lost forever. Also I do believe, as stated before, that there are other means in gaining controll over ones life. Self-confidence, beleiving in ourselves etc etc.
          If you cannot believe in other means than just God there’s a kind of shortcoming in my view.

          As said, I don’t wanna argue about faith. There’s no point as explained above for me to get into that matter. That will not be the path for me to solve anything.

          Maybe, just maybe, if I found back myself and get the chance to look at life in a different way as I do now, maybe I get to a point where there will be space to some kind of believe or faith. From where I stand now this will never happend, but one never knows. It’s not an issue I care about now.

          So, again I say I totally respect you old guy and respect the hard work you did to get where you are now. I worked hard to get where I am too, in fact I can be satisfied with some things I did, there’s a start. Although I miss some reasons to carry on, faith is not going to be one of the ways to get me where I wanna be.
          Respectfully, Fred

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