General discussion

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  • #2192151



    by certboy ·

    Take two persons with no experience in IT.

    One has taught themselves about IT over a couple of Years
    One has been on a course over a couple of years and passed.

    Which do you hire considering there is no experience to go on?

All Comments

  • Author
    • #3271209

      You interview them

      by jamesrl ·

      In reply to Dilemma?

      First of all your wording is confusing – are you suggesting zero work experience in IT, but one is self taught, the other has a cert?

      Assuming this is an entry level position, and if I only had two applicants to chose from, I would interview them both.

      I would not automatically assume one is better than the other because they have a piece of paper. There are more factors than that in the interview process. I would not hire an anti-social genius who is disruptive to my team, no matter how good he/she is. I do give some credit to people who take courses, it shows interest, but you have to look at the whole person. Tech skills can be trained, some people skills are innate.


      • #3269550


        by tonythetiger ·

        In reply to You interview them

        the piece of paper provides you with a scapegoat should the hire not work out and your boss asks why you hired him.

        • #3143805
          Avatar photo

          But by the same token

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to But,

          Only an Absolute Moron would hire someone sight unseen.

          If both appeared if they would suit the companies needs then the piece of paper would win out most times but if they are useless for your needs they wouldn’t be considered.


      • #3142500

        Hire on attitude

        by bpayne ·

        In reply to You interview them

        The old adage “hire on attitude, train the rest” is especially true in IT and I have proved it over and over. Both have shown iniative in getting themselves trained; you can only decide by personal interview who has got the drive to go far in your organization. But be wary of the gung-ho who is prepared to stomp in where angels fear to tread.

    • #3271179

      So many things to consider

      by mjd420nova ·

      In reply to Dilemma?

      School of hard knocks and book learned applicants, that’s an apt description for just about all of the applicants one would get for just about any IT job posting. An in depth interveiw would be neede, and not only should the person be evaluated, but the intended work location has to be part of the determining factors. Some revel in working alone and others only as part of a team. Depending on your own organization, even a training envirionment can be useful in correct placement. Using other personel to help in evaluations can help, preferably someone who is doing a comparable job, and would know certain questions that would be important clues as to whether the applicant is really skilled enough to fill the opening. I find that team interveiws after initial screening can be very helpfull.

    • #3142041


      by jdmercha ·

      In reply to Dilemma?

      There are plenty of IT people available with experience and a BS. Why would I hire one of these wannabes.

    • #3141963

      If you are looking for the one true answer

      by tig2 ·

      In reply to Dilemma?

      Try reading the “CAUGHT” discussion. Its original premise was IDENTICAL to this one- simply ignore the bogus tripe that begins it now. And at 300 odd posts, will likely provide you with the answers you are seeking- assuming you choose to read some very well crafted thoughts from a wide variety of IT professionals.

    • #3141952

      Here we go again

      by jdclyde ·

      In reply to Dilemma?

      We get another “new” member, posting almost the exact same post, which will go absolutely nowhere.

      What a waste of time.

      • #3141946

        Jeeze, JD

        by tig2 ·

        In reply to Here we go again

        Aren’t you, like, totally convinced that this new person is being completely straight here? I mean, obviously he just needed to be directed to the LAST time the question was raised.

        From HAL’s calculations, it should be about 18 months before that person raises his head again… right???

        And this ought to end this discussion- unless you have a tangent in mind???

        • #3141914

          tangent? no, tango.. maybe. ]:)

          by jaqui ·

          In reply to Jeeze, JD


        • #3143850

          Yeb same Ball again

          by rob mekel ·

          In reply to tangent? no, tango.. maybe. ]:)

          They keep playing the same ball over and over again.

          Now Tango that’s a different kind of dance. Special if you’re in to the Argentinean Tango … wow great. 🙂


        • #3141854

          Jaqui has the right idea

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Jeeze, JD

          although some dirty dancing might trip the TR sensors! ]:)

        • #3143849

          Have you any idea on

          by rob mekel ·

          In reply to Jaqui has the right idea

          How dirty the Argentinean Tango can get :0
          Special in close embrace it can be real nice :0 😉


        • #3141853

          I gotta admit

          by j.lupo ·

          In reply to Jeeze, JD

          that when I saw this first posted I went and looked at the posters profile. Shame TR doesn’t build in that you can’t post something unless you enter a certain amount in your profile or something to keep the problem children at bay.

          If this is a real request, I feel sorry for the person because of what happened. oh yeah, that is why I didn’t post when I first saw it this morning. I wanted to see if I could figure out if it was real or not.

        • #3141840

          While I am willing to give this person the benefit of the doubt

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to I gotta admit

          I am only willing to give the member enough rope to hang him/herself with.

          The CAUGHT thread, while now defunct as I understand that the originating poster and crafted alter ego are no longer welcome, carries a wide and deep explaination of how traininng and expereince impact an individual’s value in the market. If the poster wants and values this information, the poster will go to that thread and read and learn. And hopefully learn what not to do in this forum.

          If however the poster is dishonest in his/her intent, it will be quickly known and just as quickly squished.

        • #3141804

          I don’t believe in coincidences. Look at the date on the account; look…..

          by sleepin’dawg ·

          In reply to While I am willing to give this person the benefit of the doubt

          the similarity of the question asked to Spuddy_M’s question. There is too much commonality for it to be mere coincidence. We’ve directed him to “Caught”; if this guy is for real, there is sufficient there to answer his question.

          As regards Spuddy_M; I don’t think he was alone in his stunt. I suspect we were being tag teamed y two and perhaps as many as four. The whole business reeked of colledge kids having a go at the “pros” from the safety of anonymity.

          I tried tracking backwards searching for an address but just ended up bouncing around inside CNet anytime I looked beyond TR. Maybe I could push it further but I was feeling lousy at the time with an impending migraine. It was going to take more effort than I cared to give to it and besides I probably shouldn’t have tried pushing that particular envelope. it might have been different if I had a received a peer message to work with. Anyway it seems to have gone quiet for the time being. Maybe it’ll stay that way for a while.

          [b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

        • #3141795

          Don’t entirely think so

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to I don’t believe in coincidences. Look at the date on the account; look…..

          I have tried to be as objective as possible- I know that this ca-ca really bothered me. Don’t know, maybe if I turned down the stress level? Oh darn- not possible just now.

          I think that the originator (or a close cousin) showed up in a water cooler thread.

          I need a hug! 🙂

          Incidentally- JD knows much about peer mail…

          I wish I had studied cryptography. From a career perspective it seems like a great path.

        • #3269754


          by ontheropes ·

          In reply to Don’t entirely think so

          I ran into this free crypto book awhile back and looked at the free online U of Wash. Crypto course too.

          If you can understand that crypto hoodeehah you’ve a far, far better mind than me GungaTig, (not that you don?t anyway.)

          I think this post makes sense but I could be an Oxy moron. (heh? me toooo funny)

          edit just cuz

        • #3141801

          You can be full of doubt if you wish

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to While I am willing to give this person the benefit of the doubt

          I do not belive for a second that this new member came out of the blue, and for their very first post EVER started this up? Not even participating in one discussion before starting to post?

          No, this is the same troll, or a copy-cat troll.

          And as anyone with half a brain knows, this topic is stupid to argue over and will get no where.

        • #3141794

          But JD

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to You can be full of doubt if you wish

          Don’t you need a hug too?

          I am being “open-minded to new ideas”. Pardon me while I deal with this furball… (AACK, AACK!)

          Gotten any good peer mail lately???

        • #3269619

          I did get one

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to But JD

          from hug boy.

          That clown has issues.

          This clown is just trying to see if the same trick will get people going again.

        • #3269604

          Willing to bet

          by onbliss ·

          In reply to You can be full of doubt if you wish

          I am not a betting man, but will put in some of my hard earned money on a bet – that this person is the same as that Spuddy.

          That is the first thing that struck me when I read the post.

        • #3143964

          Oh sure

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Willing to bet

          And here I thought he was here with a valid point to discuss! Wish you would have clued the rest of us in a little quicker! :p

        • #3142357

          jdclyde: I was supporting you

          by onbliss ·

          In reply to Willing to bet


        • #3269790


          by hals-calculations ·

          In reply to Jeeze, JD

          547.5 Days…see you all then.

      • #3141851

        Waste of time!!?? I’ll tell you about wasting time…

        by jmgarvin ·

        In reply to Here we go again

        The waste of time is that HR would never pass these two resumes through. They didn’t have the keywords, nor did they have the experience.

        On that note, I just saw a job on monster that was looking for 10 years of C# experience. ‘Course now that I need it, I can’t find the link.

        HR is evil…

    • #3269792

      Refer to Monty Python…..

      by nehpets ·

      In reply to Dilemma?

      The one with the biggest tits…
      You may as well get some benefit out of the exercise….

    • #3269645


      by now left tr ·

      In reply to Dilemma?

      Do what the casting agency for a popular UK TV show done while recruiting new extras. Hold the auditions (OK, interviews) but start by informing the applicant to step through the door on the right.

      Alas the door leads directly to the car park for it was a cunningly disguised Fire Exit.


    • #3269548

      How About A Work Interview

      by twilsonva ·

      In reply to Dilemma?

      I would say that if you are really interested in hiring one of them, then bring them both in for a work interview if it is possible. Things such as the ability to guickly pick up new information and use it or not getting flustered when a problem occurs are things that no resume I have ever seen can articulate but go a long way to making a decent employee. A few hours in the real work environment may quickly reveal which one you want regardless of the resume.

      • #3142471

        Interviewing and skills assessment

        by it_optimiser ·

        In reply to How About A Work Interview

        I go along with most stating that they should both be interviewed, by you and others? I would have an IT team member and a trusted peer interview each (quick 15 min or so) get feed back. I would then provide the applicants with a skills self-assessment list with skills that align with the IT department’s needs. See which one has even a little experience with current requirements. During your interview find out which one has personal plans that best align with your open position as well. Then hire one!

    • #3144015

      Club TechRepublic

      by clubrep ·

      In reply to Dilemma?

      At Club TechRepublic posts are free_.
      Verifi-cation, not there for any one to see__.
      All that missing is a degree_. you don?t worry

      Let me take you by the hand to travel thru some certs
      I?m sue you will see___.
      There?s load to choose from, choice is endless, and how may know, you may select even a classy MCSE____. (not)

      At Club TechRepublic posts are free_.
      Verifi-cation, not there for any one to see__.
      All that missing is a degree_. you don?t worry

      • #3143969

        I have seen ridiculous, puerile, a$$inine behaivior in my day

        by tig2 ·

        In reply to Club TechRepublic

        But pal, you take it.

        The heights of stupidity and immaturity have been reached.

        You are a real nutjob, buddy!

        • #3143968
          Avatar photo

          Calm Down Tig

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to I have seen ridiculous, puerile, a$$inine behaivior in my day

          This looser is attempting to push your buttons to get this reaction. Currently I can see at least 3 versions of the same person here and this is just one of them.

          Lets see we have [i]certboy, HALs-calculations & ClubRep.[/i]

          But you have to admit that the last one listed on this list at least made an attempt to be funny, even if it was as funny as that [i]Fake Tigger Three[/i] account that was started. 😉

          Just stop feeding them and it will go away with it’s tail between it’s legs wondering why no one is interested in their ramblings. ;\

          They look far too much like students to be taken seriously and they then wonder why fresh out of College people are not taken seriously. 😀

          This is a classic example of a few making it impossible for the many but unfortunately [b]That’s Life.[/b] :_|

          Col ]:)

        • #3143962

          I get it

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to Calm Down Tig

          Tired, walking lots, have to go in for that check-up. I have become a stress puppy.

          I think that I will do something relaxing. Pet a cat, watch Red Dwarf… something not computer generated.

          Incidentally, I have all the Dwarf on DVD. I may be missing a few episodes but have all the other bits- Universe Challenge (I believe only shown in the UK) and Can’t Smeg, Won’t Smeg (again, I think was only broadcast in the UK) as well as some interviews that were done in the US. Peer me if you want a set- always willing to pass on my favourite humour.

        • #3143845

          TT just think of

          by rob mekel ·

          In reply to I get it

          The fun and joy you will get from the Breast Cancer 3-Days benefit. 🙂

          Those punks ain’t worth it making yourself upset about.

          And yes it’s hard work to get in shape to do the 3-days run. It will get you in good shape and very much kicking. Don’t spend that great energy on the wrong people. And you know … energy well spend will come back to you doubled! 🙂


          [i]edited for the double[/i]

        • #3143790
          Avatar photo

          Tig currently I have the Boxed sets up

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to I get it

          To Series 6 or 7 I think well I know it’s one of those but [b]SHMBO[/b] isn’t a real fan of Red Dwarf so she hides the sets on me in the name of [b]Cleaning Up![/b] I’ve got all but the last one released here as I haven’t had the time to go up and buy a copy along with the Second Series of [b]Auntie Jack[/b] which you are very unlikely to have ever had the chance of seeing. The good old Auntie Jack played by Grahame Bond is a Moustache wearing Boxing Gloved Woman who rules the roust and constantly threatens to [b]Rip Your Bloody Arms Off[/b] if you don’t do as she tells you. I know I have a warped sense of humour but I loved the series when it was first broadcast here as an AU production on the ABC AU. Auntie Jack being the [b]Golden Gloves Champion of Woollong[/b] isn’t someone to mess with and it’s a really funny show that has been hidden for a long time as the owner Grahame Bond wouldn’t allow it to be rerun or otherwise shown but now for some reason it’s been remastered and released on DVD about half way through the Second Series it changes to colour and was the first TV program broadcast in colour here in AU. 🙂

          Funny thing is that all her DVDs are easily found but mine seem to disappear into the same [b]Black Hole[/b] that lost socks go to between the time of entering the washing machine and getting pulled out. 😉

          Just to at least think I would win part way I bought 25 pair of socks all the same and after the first wash I only have one of those 50 socks left. So I just grab what’s available and wear odd socks until [b]SHMBO[/b] notices and hits the roof and insists that I change my socks when she finds a pair. I generally escape prior to that happening. 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3143956

          Relax Tig. These pimple faced punks can’t cut it in real life and if…….

          by sleepin’dawg ·

          In reply to I have seen ridiculous, puerile, a$$inine behaivior in my day

          you react to them you are giving credibility to their feeble, pathetic, existences. It will be people like you they will have to come crawling to for work and it will be to your advantage to learn their silly-assed habits so you can recognize them for what they are and deal with them accordingly.

          Whether they like it or not they will have to learn that they are dependant upon us for their continued employment, and you will always be the looming threat of discipline or termination in their pitifully stupid, pimple faced, little lives. These dweebs are all interchangeable and if one displeases you, you just need to replace him with one or the others. Idiots like this are an annoyance and they have very limited futures. Not many will make the climb up the food chain and they will remain expendable. Right now they are having a hell of a time competing with the likes of someone in Mumbai, Delhi or Calcutta.

          Pity them do not wast your energy getting angry with them, Scum like they are, aren’t worth th effort.

          Every year the universities and Tech schools churn people out the doors with their little bits of paper clasped tightly in their hot little hands. It will come as a rude shock to them when they find, that with extremely rare exceptions, we aren’t overly eager to welcome them. It is similar to culling a herd, you try them out and if they don’t or can’t cut it, like the cows that don’t maintain high yields of milk, you dispatch them to the abatoirs with no sense of guilt because you will not have disposed of a real person, just another unproductive individual who has failed you and your company but worse yet failed themselves and they are too stupid to recognize that and/or admit it.

          [b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

        • #3143810

          TT – It’s ok – really

          by j.lupo ·

          In reply to I have seen ridiculous, puerile, a$$inine behaivior in my day

          We all just need to ignore. I mean if we don’t react sooner or later he/she/they will go away. Actually, I am beginning to laugh over it because we all can recognize them so quickly now. There game just doesn’t work.

      • #3143763

        My take

        by jamesrl ·

        In reply to Club TechRepublic

        I have to say though I disagree with your message, I will give you added points for attempting to use a different media type for your post.

        As a musician, I’d have to say, you chorus looks almost like it scans. You might have to tweak it a bit.

        Your verse (the one in the middle) has some major problems in terms of how it scans – unless you have just punctuated it badly.

        I’m not sure what you are intending with the line. Your last line should be the hook, the thing that ties it altogether, and the Amazon line looks like a throwaway.

        All in all, I applaud the creativity behind the effort, but I hope you have a good day job, I don’t see a career in songwriting in your future.


    • #3143970
      Avatar photo

      You Interview them both

      by hal 9000 ·

      In reply to Dilemma?

      And see which one will be the better fit in your organisation.

      What you want is someone willing to work and eager to learn and this is something that A piece of paper will defiantly not tell you.

      In a case like this the CV is useless you need to look at the person and gauge how they will actually work. Far too many people will jump at the chance of getting some form of IT Degree and think that that gives then the right to the [b]Big Bucks[/b] without the need to first get their hands dirty and actually learn their trade before they can start to earn the [b]Big Bucks.[/b]

      Just remember that the [b]God[/b] of the majority of these IT Students Billy Boy dropped out of College to start MS so does that mean that I shouldn’t employ him if he came knocking at my door for a job?

      [i]edited for spelling error[/i]

      • #3268946

        I agree in part….

        by johns ·

        In reply to You Interview them both

        By all means interview both people. Chances are the school trained guy has not had any practicle “hands on” experience, while the self taught guy has had nothing but hands on… and that generally means finding and fixing all of the strange stuff that happens during the day.

        Its one thing to take a class, answer some questions on a general knowledge test, and get a cert. Its a totally different matter actually using that information in the field. Nothing ever happens exactly the way the book says it should.

        The self taught guy has already shown his interest in the subject by learning it “the hard way”. The school taught guy has also shown interest by taking the class.

        So it indeed boils down to which one do you think is a better fit for your company. Both will have to be trained to do the job you need done. No school can do that.

    • #3143851

      I would Interview them both

      by james.whitehead ·

      In reply to Dilemma?

      I would interview them both, have a few good questions both based on experiences in the field and on tech questions.

      In the end it is the one that fits the bill, the one that you think you will get on with the job, and one who does not keep coming to your door when the always seem to know the answer but need a holding hand.

      It is always a case of trust and belief in someone that is the hardest thing.

    • #3142232

      Easy Answer

      by jerome.koch ·

      In reply to Dilemma?

      I worked with self taught PC geeks who just got into the field. These are hobbiest who do not realize that time is money. Out of the 4 that I worked with, none made it. It wasn’t so enjoyable after they found out that our network wasn’t a toy.

    • #3268963

      Not just questions

      by m_sabal ·

      In reply to Dilemma?

      You didn’t mention exactly what the job requirements were, or why you were looking at resumes with no experience. I’m assuming it’s an entry-level position, and your company is trying to pay the lowest possible salary imaginable.

      As a number of other individuals have mentioned, you’ll need some kind of interview. But so far I haven’t seen anyone indicate what you should be looking for in an interview. A personality that fits the team, as one poster mentioned, is important, but there are a number of other things I often look for. On the resume, what kind of non-IT experience does the person have? Have they stayed at one job for a while or do they bounce around a lot? What kind of extracurricular activities have they done? Is there anything that fits the type of industry you’re in, even if it’s not exactly IT?

      During the interview, ask each candidate to bring a portfolio of their IT work. That will give you a better idea of what they’re capable of than the course work. Also, have a number of business scenarios that you face on a regular basis. Ask how they would handle the problem. Do they go directly for the server room or do they start with the client? Do they assume a user error, software error, or hardware error to start? Do they attack each scenario the same way, or do take a case-by-case approach?

      On the other hand, you might consider partnering with a local technical college and hire a few interns, instead.

    • #3268929

      Min. Requirements

      by jcritch ·

      In reply to Dilemma?

      Without knowing what role they will fulfill. If the role is technical, then break a system and see who can resolve it. Even if they can not resolve it, see what problem solving skillsets they have.

      If the role is phone support, have someone else interview them over the phone, asking pointed questions. See how well they can trouble shoot, over the phone.

      If the role is system admin, create a few system admin tasks and see how well they:

      Follow direction
      Understand docuemntation
      Document what they do
      deal with a “one off” situation not clearly defined.

      Good luck,

      • #3268878

        I despise that term.

        by tonythetiger ·

        In reply to Min. Requirements

        ‘Minimum requirements’ reminds me of ‘barely adequate’.

        • #3269327

          Good Point

          by jcritch ·

          In reply to I despise that term.

          then again, you need a starting point, a measure from which you say yes of no to the candidate on first pass of the resume/job app.

    • #3112921

      Give a test

      by jkowolf ·

      In reply to Dilemma?

      Make up a task to test both on and see who either solves it or demonstrates their ability to come up with a strategy to solve it.

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