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  • #2208909

    Ethical Cell Phone: The Discussion

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    by robo_dev ·

    There, I started it. Enjoy.

    The question is, in a global economy based on capitalism, is it possible to create economic incentives to protect workers and/or disincentives or sanctions for mistreatment of workers?

    While within developed countries, there are labor and wage laws and standards, how is it practical, possible, or even rational to impose similar standards on developing countries who may lack the infrastructure, governance, and even education to ensure workers are treated humanely?

    Related issues include who decides what is fair, whether there is true freedom of expression and the press in developing countries, the role of government, etc, etc,

    Thusly kicking the hornet’s nest, I now run away….

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    • #2440049

      That’s for me to decide…

      by ansugisalas ·

      In reply to Ethical Cell Phone: The Discussion

      and you, and you…. and, not you – just kidding.
      Only politicians are disqualified.
      This is going to be a world-wide population-wide negotiation in this here twenty-first century.
      At least, let’s hope it’s a century-scope thing, and not a third-millennium scope thing.

    • #2440047
      Avatar photo

      Yes it is possible

      by hal 9000 ·

      In reply to Ethical Cell Phone: The Discussion

      But it would require that the Free Enterprise System run by Accountants be overthrown and that companies be run by [b]”Real People”[/b] who look at the entire picture as apposed to just the cost of Production.

      When transferring manufacturing overseas was first started it was to save money and improve conditions in the countries that the production was moved to. Since then the sole aim of most companies has been to reduce manufacturing costs at every option and to wash their hands of their responsibilities for the factories that they cause to be built and manned for their express use.

      Don’t get me wrong while Apple is the Talk of the Town at the moment they are by no means the only offenders and to single them out for what is happening where their products are made is wrong. They are following [b]”Normal Business Practices”[/b] and every major company and all the minor ones should be held to account for what is done in their name.

      Just my 2 cents worth though. 😉

      Col

      • #2440046

        Not just Normal Business Practices:

        by ansugisalas ·

        In reply to Yes it is possible

        Business Best Practices.
        This is something that is actively encouraged, and boreds of directors are actively seeking the Lowest Cost at All Costs.

        It all goes back to that religious idiot Adam Smith, who wrote into the definition of the free market that [i]The free market is being Guided by God to the Greater Good[/i], the result of that is that all sorts of idiots think that interference with the Market is Evil. Even idiots who are not religious idiots share this assumption, becase [i][b]NOBODY HAS BOTHERED TO EXAMINE THE BASIS OF FREE MARKET THEORY!!![/i]
        AUGH!!![/b]

        Ok, ok, I’m getting a grip… getting a grip.
        Phew.
        So anyway, all these idiots are just going by a false assumption that Jesus liked the Merchants sooo much that he shoo-shoo’ed them out of the Temple in order to get them better locales. They probably think he helped them decorate, too.

        Anyway; I consider myself a conservative, even though often people who proclaim themselves to be conservatives are the worst of these idiots.
        I just don’t subscribe to this idiocy that the market is somehow magical, with fairy dust shooting out its wazoo.
        It’s not.
        It’s a powerful vehicle.
        Vehicles that cannot be steered tend to run over things and make quite a mess. This is 3-year-old-playing-with-legos stuff, people!

        Now, the way the communists did it, they had a 500 lbs fat ass sit behind the wheel of a plastic kids’ three-wheeler. They didn’t even notice that the vehicle broke, since it promptly disappeared up the sundonshine of the “great steerer”.

        These are extremes. They are NOT examples to follow. This shouldn’t be difficult to understand. They are examples of how NOT to do things.

        Don’t remove steering, while strapping the accelerator pedal down to the floor!
        Don’t enforce steering which outweighs the vehicle 100000%.
        AUGH!

        Sorry, I just needed to vent.

        • #2439611

          I think there are two gross misunderstandings in neocon-omics

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to Not just Normal Business Practices:

          First, the instant some agency (be it guild or government) establishes a medium of exchange, the market is no longer ‘free’ in the sense envisioned by the neocons. It can only be regulated or unregulated.

          Second, the ‘Invisible hand’ only works as Smith envisioned it in a regulated market. In an unregulated market, the invisible hand rapidly becomes a mailed fist wielded to crush all competition.

        • #2439445

          Fire burns.

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to I think there are two gross misunderstandings in neocon-omics

          Toddlers learn this quick.
          Not so the rest of us.

          We have spent two thousand years or more being enamored of Purity.
          And Purity really burns. Purity is extremism. And purity is unnatural.
          Nature doesn’t abhor a vacuum, nature is chuck full of vacuum, actually.
          Nature abhors purity. So should we.
          For so long philosophers have developed all these silly notions of purity as good. It will take a lot of work to clear out that nonsense and replace it with an appreciation for the melange.
          Curry, though, is a good place to start.
          Come to think of it, water is the only thing that’s better pure than unmixed… and even water improves by adding whisky to it 😀

    • #2439639

      In Defense of Adam Smith: he is often quoted out of context

      by robo_dev ·

      In reply to Ethical Cell Phone: The Discussion

      The following is from wikipedia:

      Everybody reads the first paragraph of The Wealth of Nations where he talks about how wonderful the division of labor is.

      But not many people get to the point hundreds of pages later, where he says that division of labor will destroy human beings and turn people into creatures as stupid and ignorant as it is possible for a human being to be. And therefore in any civilized society the government is going to have to take some measures to prevent division of labor from proceeding to its limits.

      Therefore, in 1776, when he wrote the book, he did have it right, but people have misinterpreted his message.

      • #2439626

        What does the division of labor have to do with God?

        by ansugisalas ·

        In reply to In Defense of Adam Smith: he is often quoted out of context

        Adam Smith’s theory isn’t even false.
        If Adam Smith was Darwin, Creationism would have already won.

      • #2439612

        And that division of labor reached its limits

        by nicknielsen ·

        In reply to In Defense of Adam Smith: he is often quoted out of context

        In union contracts that prevented workers from taking simple actions they were perfectly capable of doing on their own, such as cleaning up their own workplaces. At that point, human nature kicked in and asked “Why should I care how it looks? I don’t have to clean it up.”

        I have an acquaintance who is an industrial maintenance technician. If he determines that a machine won’t run because it has no power, he can’t reset the breaker himself, he has to call an electrician to do it, then ask him to stick around in case it needs to be reset again. So now, TWO people are tied up on one job, each waiting on the other, while factory costs rise and output falls. If such occurs often enough or continues long enough, it puts both jobs in jeopardy.

        I’ve never understood the attitude that pushes for such contracts.

        • #2439593
          Avatar photo

          Well it could very easily be

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to And that division of labor reached its limits

          If you can reset a Circuit Breaker you can rewire it and replace everything else that you are not qualified to do.

          It wouldn’t be the first time I’ve seen Management expect staff to just [b]Fix it Now[/b] and to hell with the consequences.

          I had a situation once upon a time where someone was killed by an Electric Shock in the work Place. I was found responsible because I left the job where it was possible to re-energize the equipment and I didn’t make it safe. Didn’t matter that the equipment in question was behind Temporary Fencing the Orange Plastic type or that I had removed all of the 3 Phase Plugs off the equipment. Some idiot cut the Temporary Fencing with a Box Knife and then replaced all of the 3 Phase Plugs with ones that I was officially told where not in the building. I don’t know where they came from or when they where replaced all I do know is that at 10.00 PM when I left the place with the Removed Plugs in my Tool Box where they where at 2.00 AM 4 hours latter when I returned to help the police with their investigation.

          The Coroner insisted that I should have also removed the Power Leads and when I asked where to draw the line as it was perfectly possible that all of the Power Leads could also be replaced he came to the conclusion that the only safe way to do Routine Service on the Main Frame was to completely remove the Hardware that was being Serviced.

          That would have shut down the entire Processing Facility instead of just killing 20% of the capacity.

          So Nick in answer to your suggestion that requiring 2 people to do a Job where one could easily do it all falls back to Legal Requirements no matter if it is brought about by a Union or Employer or Ruling by a Coroner.

          Having being held responsible for a death is most defiantly not something you want to experience and I can personally Assure you of that. 😉

          Col

        • #2439587

          Drawing the line…

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to Well it could very easily be

          that’s a convincing argument…
          Now, if only the electrician’s contract would read that they’re not allowed to run a data cable or a cable to feed power to a computer without IT supervision, that’d save a lot of headaches.

          What with all the power cables twisted around power lines for heavy machinery and all 🙂

        • #2439584
          Avatar photo

          You forgot Telephone lines

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Drawing the line…

          They are the nightmare here not Data Lines. 😉

          While I can Run Phone Lines [i]I have the tools and know how, how to run them safely[/i] I also have the Permits I refuse to have anything to do with Phone lines as the possibility of a Massive Claim against you is way too great.

          Here you are held responsible for any Damage to the Exchanges and intervening Phone Lines and have to literally prove you where not responsible for anything that may have happened.

          I know lots of people who do run Phone Lines and some have been truly horrible in the way that they work and they don’t get asked to explain themselves where as those who do them to standard have lots of explaining to do.

          One place I saw a 3 Wire Fence with 2 of the wires both of which where bare wires, where the 1 Pair running 500 meters along the fence line to the Back Office. Even when a Ultra Light took out the fence and destroyed the local exchange no questions where asked probably because there was no inspector who could believe that someone would do something so stupid.

          Then I’ve seen others who run Commander Lines through a building and they are pulled away from work for 2 days while their work is inspected to prove that they have done it to standard.

          I stopped running phone lines when the Inspector complained that I had done the work to [b]Too High a Standard[/b] and had cost the client too much money. Didn’t matter that is what the client demanded or what the Contract Specified apparently I was supposed to ignore the Required Specifications and do it to a much lower standard so that the Authorities would be happy.

          First and last time I’ve even got into trouble for doing work [b]Too Well[/b] and not something I care to repeat. 😀

          And don’t get me started on the people who pass as inspectors. One guy hit a socket with a hammer and because it broke which was no surprise claimed that the job was not done properly. Apparently it’s supposed to survive a 747 falling out of the sky onto it and not have any problems. I’ve seen some inspectors who think if they can break something it’s not done right and proceed to prove this at every opportunity. When you know that you are in the areas that they work you factor in a 200% increase in the fittings/sockets/wall plates/whatever that you use and the time taken to fit them. Only way to get the worked passed. :^0

          Col

        • #2439583

          Inspectors that bad..

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to You forgot Telephone lines

          give graft a good name :0

        • #2439574

          That coroner displayed a distinct lack of good sense

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to Well it could very easily be

          Somebody went to a lot of trouble to kill himself, and this guy is trying to take that accomplishment away.

          It reminds me of the id10t that accused the electrical company of gross negligence because the id10t’s brother had fried himself trying to steal the copper cables from an electrical distribution box. Seems id10t 2 used his bolt-cutters on the 480VAC 3-phase feed line to the main panel…while it was hot! (They know he used bolt-cutters by the grip pattern burned into the victim’s hands! 😀 )

          The id10t’s reasoning? “You should have used a more secure lock on the gate to the [chain link] enclosure.” :0

        • #2439570

          I think it’s obvious what happened…

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to That coroner displayed a distinct lack of good sense

          The coroner had money going on a different Darwin award candidate!

        • #2439569

          Well in that particular case

          by oh smeg ·

          In reply to That coroner displayed a distinct lack of good sense

          I got the distinct impression that the person who died wasn’t the person who fitted the unknown of 3 Phase Plugs.

          Though they very well may have been the one who used the Box Knife on the Temp Fencing and they most certainly was the one who wanted it fixed so that they could do their work. In other words here they where the Boss on that shift. 😉

          But it got even better as they got electrocuted because when returning from the lunch room with a tray of coffees they put their foot into a trench where the Grates had been lifted and fell into several Frames Power Supply. The combination of Conductive material [i]the coffee[/i] some urine when the electricity started flowing through his body to some sort of earth was sufficient to make a very good circuit, not to mention a real mess in the Processing room. 😀

          The dead person was fined by their employer for breaching rules and that was caring the coffee into the Processing room from the Lunch Room as there wasn’t supposed to be any food stuffs or drinks in that part of the building.

          I have no idea of what went through the dead persons head as the thought processes involved defy logic or common sense, however I do strongly believe that they just wanted it working the way they they liked and to that end threw their weight around to get their way.

          30 odd years latter I think it’s Poetic Justice but back then I wasn’t overly impressed and I still have those 3 Phase Plugs just to remind me no matter how careful you actually are, there are bigger and dumber idiots who will circumvent every safety procedure you try to put in place.

          The Box Cutter was found on the dead guys desk latter but that by no means, means that he was in any way involved in cutting down/through the fencing just that who ever did it, if it wasn’t him didn’t want to get into any trouble after the event.

          The dead guy was also Breached for that Box Knife as it wasn’t supposed to be in the Data Processing room either. They even complained about me taking screwdrivers in there to do my work as they are Dangerous and could kill someone. I had to swear that I would remove all the tools when we left for the day and bring them back when we started the next mourning. Now with hindsight I fully understand why it was necessary. 😀

          Though in that case I’m still not sure of what more I could have done to prevent the incident from happening except staying there 24 hours a day till the job was finished.

          Col

        • #2439561

          That’s a perfect riddle…

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to Well in that particular case

          “How do you ensure that the idiots won’t find a way to kill themselves on the machinery exposed while you’re gone… they get to use any and all tools and parts, they even get to get it delivered by parcel service if need be”.

          Maybe … nah.
          Oh but… ah, won’t work.

          Never underestimate the tenacity and ingenuity of an idiot trying to mess up big time :^0

        • #2439557
          Avatar photo

          And therein lies the problem

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to That’s a perfect riddle…

          1 They where not supposed to be in the area.

          2 There where no replacement 3 Phase Plugs in the building [I]supposedly[/I]

          3 The way left open for them was not suitable because they had to walk another 10 steps.

          4 This is a Data Processing area not a area where manual work is supposed to be done

          5 They had no right to be in the area that the dead person was

          6 Other than the use of Keyboards and Dumb Terminals no other work was supposed to be performed there by the staff working. It was a Bank after all not a Heavy Machinery operation.

          But no matter what you can not protect people from themselves.

          That is what all Government needs to understand while it may be a great idea and have the ability to solve all [b]Known[/b] Stupidity in the Universe the Universe will just come up with bigger and better idiots. 😉

          Col

        • #2439535

          Synchronicity

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to That’s a perfect riddle…

          I was just reading a Gyro Gearloose story, and then Gyro quotes the great KungFutze : “Nobody can create a device so clever, that some chump won’t be able to use it wrong”… I think that can be applied very widely indeed 🙂

        • #2439533
          Avatar photo

          Here Here

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Well in that particular case

          I can not disagree with that comment as it’s completely true.

          Col

        • #2439521

          Not to be an arguer, but

          by robo_dev ·

          In reply to And that division of labor reached its limits

          Oops, having written all the following, then reading HAL’s post below:::::

          If the machine had a huge short circuit or somehow became energized, then the electrician would be needed both to fix the fault AND to use a dry board to knock your friend loose from it, as well as to call the ambulance/undertaker and/or perform CPR.

          If a breaker trips, it would likely mean that there’s an electrical problem that the electrician had better fix before somebody dies….

          Also, typically in a factory there are strict rules about re-energizing equipment, so that somebody does not apply power to something when a worker is in harm’s way, as that’s how people get killed. That’s why breakers have those lockout switches with holes for four padlocks, each worker having his own lock/key, as a misunderstanding can have fatal consequences.

        • #2439473

          In the case above

          by nicknielsen ·

          In reply to Not to be an arguer, but

          The maintenance tech is responsible for the equipment up to the wall box, so he would be the one to troubleshoot the equipment. The problem arises during the troubleshooting process when he has to call the electrician to help him by resetting the breaker as necessary.

        • #2439462

          I understand Hal’s point but

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to And that division of labor reached its limits

          At one job, I wasn’t allowed to carry a computer to a workstation, even though my job was to fix or replace personal computers in the building. That was the job of a porter. But the porter could take hours to arrive. I just learned who the rats where who would file a greivance, and waited till they took their smoke breaks.

        • #2439460

          Was that some kind of “puny nerd biceps” joke taken too seriously?

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to I understand Hal’s point but

          “No no no, you may think that you do bodybuilding in your free time, but we know you people, you’ll just break if you try to lift something heavy… leave that to the porters, that’s an order!”
          They probably read Dilbert, so, like, they know this stuff.

        • #2439459
          Avatar photo

          James some places have stupid rules

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to I understand Hal’s point but

          But here I would imagine that this one is a carry over from a long time ago when the Terminals where big heavy things that resulted in injury to the Techs who carried them.

          Kind of reminds me of the Queens Palace where you could throw coal on a fire but you had to get someone to bring the coal up to the fire.

          I’ve seen numerous places where [b]”The Rules”[/b] have not kept pace with [b]”New Developments”[/b] as they occur because Management doesn’t want to revisit the rules which already exist. Or if they do it’s only to add “Additional Rules: and never repeal or change any of the existing rules. Quite common in any Government work too I might add. 😉

          At one prison where I had to go to do some maintenance work it was against the rules to carry screwdrivers but perfectly OK to bring in a Hunting Knife. Go figure that one as I was completely lost with it.

          Col

        • #2439376

          The rules

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to I understand Hal’s point but

          The rules at that employer were because of unions not wanting non union employees to do something that overlapped the job of a union employee. It didn’t help that we were a couple of cubes away from someone on the union’s negotiating team. I managed to ignore or fool them often enough to get the job done. Eventually my role was outsourced to a third party company and it was moot. I stayed on in a different role.

    • #2439520

      Not to try to bring this back on track but, I wonder if Apple workers

      by robo_dev ·

      In reply to Ethical Cell Phone: The Discussion

      Can reset their own circuit breakers?

      Who knows, maybe the Foxconn factories have no circuit breakers, as that would only interfere with productivity.

      • #2439486

        They’re saving on the cabling…

        by ansugisalas ·

        In reply to Not to try to bring this back on track but, I wonder if Apple workers

        by having the current go to ground down the legs of workers…
        Patent pending.
        That’s the reason for China’s strict control over communications; they don’t want all these Great Ideas to be leaked, weakening China’s competitive edge! :p

    • #2439449

      Am I being a trifle trite?

      by drowningnotwaving ·

      In reply to Ethical Cell Phone: The Discussion

      Are not the recent actions of consumer groups and ‘people rights’ groups, and the reactions of the targetted suppliers, a great example of the overall market working pretty well?

      Like them or otherwise, many large Western-based companies are having to spend a lot of time, money and effort enforcing a level of safety and standards at their global suppliers.

      That their concern may be greed-based or revenue driven is, to an extent, irrelevant.

      My point is that I feel that these concerns, and the small actions being taken, are on the radar because of the free-ish market, not despite it.

      I think an ethical product of any kind is absolutely practical, possible, and over time given advances in technology will not even cost the consumer more than they are paying now.

      • #2439448
        Avatar photo

        And the World Wide HDD Shortage is because

        by hal 9000 ·

        In reply to Am I being a trifle trite?

        Of floods in Thailand where all the HDD makers have Manufacturing Plants which where destroyed.

        As things stand right now the shortage will be there till 2016 for something that happened in 2011 and could possibly happen several times again before 2016 arrives.

        The Free Market which has allowed this to happen in just this 1 instance is neither working well or effectively and they are loosing income as a direct result of their actions.

        [i]My point is that I feel that these concerns, and the small actions being taken, are on the radar because of the free-ish market, not despite it.[/i]

        If that was really true many more companies other than Apple would be in the Firing Line and be getting complained about, they are not and even when there is a complaint like the one against Apple it gets dropped very quickly by the Media who does very little to actually report it to begin with.

        Why is it that Cage Chickens get more coverage than people who are sold into servitude do?

        Col

        • #2439428

          Indeed

          by robo_dev ·

          In reply to And the World Wide HDD Shortage is because

          While I try to be optimistic, I really do not expect working conditions for Apple factory workers to improve very much at all.

          While in the name of good PR, Apple will announce some high-visibility well-branded initiative to do the right thing.

          But surely the management of Apple cannot take over Foxconn and be there day and night to transform their Chinese factory into Disneyland.

          There (might) be site-visits by Apple to these plants, and surely, the workers chosen to put on their ‘happy act’ for the Americans will play their part, and then it’s back to business-as-usual once the visit is over.

        • #2439418

          Why?

          by drowningnotwaving ·

          In reply to And the World Wide HDD Shortage is because

          Perhaps it simply sells more newspapers. Perhaps ‘squeemish’ only has so much airplay before it becomes sickening. Who knows?

          [i]If that was really true many more companies other than Apple would be in the Firing Line and be getting complained about.[/i]

          They are. All the time, by hundreds of people worldwide. Many of the companies have little resources or clout with which to respond. Many don’t give a flying fark. “Joe’s fashion outlet” doesn’t resonate with readers or viewers like Nike or Apple, really, does it?

          [i]The Free Market which has allowed this to happen in just this 1 instance is neither working well or effectively and they are loosing income as a direct result of their actions.[/i]

          I’m missing the point. Is the market process to blame, because no-one thought to build an HDD plant outside the flood zones??

          Sounds like an opportunity if you have a lazy $250 mil burning a hole … 🙂

          edit silly typing errors

        • #2439136

          Tsunami safe:

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to Why?

          Invest in Beltan Suspendaz’ new tsunami-proof manufacturing plant located at Sherpa Place, 08848, mteverest.
          Features include great synergy savings from not having to have any A/C whatsoever :^0

        • #2439375

          Not so sure

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to And the World Wide HDD Shortage is because

          Nikon had plants in both Sendai, where the Tsunami hit, and in Thailand where the floods covered the manufacturing floor in three feet of water.

          They haven’t recovered fully, but they are manufacturing in both locations again, and have brought out new models from those plants.

          If anyone wants to buy me a new D800E I will be happy to do a write up on the post disaster quality control.

      • #2439444

        The free market doesn’t exist.

        by ansugisalas ·

        In reply to Am I being a trifle trite?

        At least not as advertised.
        A free market cannot be limited to the driving of a business, or the buying and selling of stuff. Also, free market is not the same as free competition.
        Free competition is different in that it is not reduced by regulations, so long as the regulations do not distort competition.
        Free competition is also hampered by things that the market doesn’t care about.
        Like, a massive cartel is death to competition, whereas the market forces see it as “exercising freedom”.
        Consumer action is always based on free competition, either by dispensing negative publicity unequally, or through a boycott (unequal), thus harming the subject by inversely promoting its competitors.

        • #2439417

          You can wax lyrically for hours

          by drowningnotwaving ·

          In reply to The free market doesn’t exist.

          The original question was “Is an ethical phone possible?” (if I have interpreted correctly, of course).

          My response would be Yes.

          I don’t for one minute suggest that every single phone on the market will be “ethical” in the manner I interpret the question.

          Nor do I suggest that regulators force me to only buy materials from ‘certified suppliers’.

          Is improvement to be supported? Or is some-sort-of-Nirvana the only acceptible answer?

        • #2439403

          Dude, this is the WC…

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to You can wax lyrically for hours

          I don’t think on-topic discussion is allowed here! :0
          :^0

        • #2439374

          Myfault …

          by drowningnotwaving ·

          In reply to Dude, this is the WC…

          Inflexibility remains a critical factor in my inability to engage in casual sex. You’d think I’d learn some time.

        • #2439137

          That’s the spirit…

          by ansugisalas ·

          In reply to Myfault …

          I think you threw the Moderators with that one… and yeah, I know what you mean. Once you get over the rigidity, it’s a lost cause – nothing to do but limp on home :^0

          Now, if talk turns to *causal* sex, we’re all in big trouble!

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