IT Employment·20,050 discussions

Fair Competition?

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Is it fair for a person who has no degrees in computer science to compete with one who has it for the same job?
Is it fair, when there are those who persevered and toiled to earn a degree in CS, only to find that many of the CS positions are held by individuals who just ventured into the marked because they couldn’t find jobs in their own professions or just because they were seeking better income. I would think it’s fair, if it worked both ways.
Can you, as a holder of BSCS, apply for a psychology-related position? If not, then why was it OK for a person who majored in psychology to compete with you for a computer job–if not become your boss. Please, exclude exceptions, i.e. don’t just focus in your reply on the cases in which the guy with no BSCS is doing a better job than you. I’m talking about the situation where you are just as good (if not much better, which is often the case.)
Shouldn’t there be a criterion for computer positions–just as there are ones for most other professions?!
Can I, with no degree in Engineering, go and compete for a job against an engineer with a bachelor’s degree in Civil Engineering?
Well, why does it seem that anyone on earth with just 3 or 4 months of study of some certification can come and compete for the same job with someone who has spent at least 4 years of academic education for a Bachelor’s degree and experience in computer science? In some instances, they might be working in the cubicle next yours and making MORE money than you do–let alone having your boss as someone who holds a degree in some arts or physical education; or no 4-year degree at all!!! This renders a Bachelor’s in Computer Science truely worthless!!!
Often times, it’s not really that the guy–or gal–in the cubicle next to oyu is doing a better job than you are that earns them the extra money or authority. How about favoritism, attraction, other preferences that are irrelevant to the job?!
If a degree in CS were a benchmark, then at least, you would be competing against peers in the profession.
Or maybe we should do away with degrees altogether, and one could go and apply for any sort of job as long as you demonstrate the willingness to do it and the enthusiasm to learn!
But then again, I should be allowed to open a car repair shop, without having to become a licensed mechanic; I should be able to be an electrician without needing a license to practice,… how about a doc?!

Topic

Knowledge and skill should be the criteria

In reply to Fair Competition?

All a degree does is say that you spent so many years be taught matters relevant to that subject and supposedly have a certain level of knowledge and skill to justify the issue of the degree. All the material that is taught in those classes is learnt from other people, mostly non degree people, recording what they have learnt in real life situations. Today most organisations recognise that years of experience can teach as much, if not more than, a degree.

Several years back I went for a job in a particular government dept working in a specialised financial administrative area. I had no degree or certificate saying that I knew this material – I was not granted an interview. All the people interviewed had recently finished uni degrees and also done a special course on that subject that another government dept ran. The head of the branch doing the employment refused to even read applications from people whe did not have relevant degrees.

I complained about not being interviewed. In the wash up after the affair that branch head did NOT get a peformance bonus that year. I had no degree or certs in the subject. I had only been the person to introduce it to the government sphere and make it work. Written the three government papers on how to do that work within the government financial structure and was a guest lecturer at the coiurse that certified people. 30 years experience and taught the stuff but, according to the branch head, no degree meant I was no good and knew nothing.

I got fed up with the ‘require a degree’ garbage in finance and admin and now do tech work where most people will accept knowing how to do the job is more important than framed wall paper.

Reply To: Fair Competition?

In reply to Knowledge and skill should be the criteria

Ernest, I completely respect your opinion. From my vantage point, a college degree helps in forming your knowledge; in about 4 years, you learn about many things that will certainly help shape your personality and arm you with many skills, as you go on sailing in the seas of life! Also, if employers repected and valued a computer science degree, I think that computer programs would be more efficient and networks would be more reliable. The reason is, in my opinion, someone who spent years studying CS (generally, that is) would most likely possess broad and comprehensive and science-based knoledge that will render their work more integral and efficient.
I do have a bachelor’s in computer science and about 7 years of work experience. Nevertheless, due to various reasons, my work experience is scattered in several areas of IT…programming, networking, databases, project management, security…It makes my resume seem very unfocused and makes it very difficult to get a job counting all of the years of experience!

I think it is the universities that are to blame

In reply to Reply To: Fair Competition?

in this issue not the employers. Here in Australia the CS degree has very little relevance to daily IT work but useful if you want to get into big time design work for people like Intel and AMD, research, etc. For normal work stuff you do the college courses.

The reasons for the difference is deeply routed in the academic attitude to education and learning. About 20 years ago the Prime Minister of the day (Bob Hawke)organisd a big conference with employers, unions and educationalists to review the relevance of the modern education system. The outcomes from this were many and varied but centered around the concepts of competency based training and work related courses for higher education. The colleges (TAFEs here) went with it, the unis fought against it as it basically said the academics running the uni courses were out of touch with the workplace realities – they sure got that right. This has resulted in the gap widening in some areas, and in some unis revamping their courses – took them over 15 years to act. The best degrees here are those where a TAFE and uni have combined forces to offer a degree including studies at both – the local employers like it.

The daily reality is that most employers do not care about you ability to understand the basic physics and design new computer circuitry, what they want is your ability to diagnose a fault and set up systems, etc. And that is where your experience will outway the degree. The biggest pity about that is the people offering the CS degrees do NOT tell the prospective students this, otherwise they would have no students.

Efficiency and reliability

In reply to I think it is the universities that are to blame

Ernest, all that you have said is great makes much sense. However, will you get a more efficient “search” or “sort” algorithims from a programmer without math, data structures … education or from the one who has that kind of knowledge?
Will you get a reliable network from someone with a Bachelor’s in CS, who knows very well what a binary, hexadecimal, octal numbers are or someone who just skimmed through and got just the very bare minimum to pass some sort of a certification?
Will you have better, more formal and eloquent communication from an IT professional who studied college-level english literature, history, speech and psychology or from someone without that sort of education?

Can I be an apprentice for a Doc for 5 years, and then go on to open my own practice?

Better yet, I worked in an IT department, where one of my coworkers had a degree in business, one had a degree in psychology, one had it in physical education and another had a 2-year ed in some sort of thing related to manufacturing. Only 3 people had a Bachelor’s in CS!
Now, could I go and compete with my psychology friend for a psychology-related job? How about the business one?
You see, I’m completely over it. I have been advising people to NEVER major in any computer stuff. Have fun with a degree in physical ed, and then take a course or two in computer stuff, if you want to work in the computer arena.

Mostly true but such skills are not limited

In reply to Efficiency and reliability

to a CS degree holder. A lot really depend upon the person, their attitude and their experience.

I prefer to work with hardware but have worked on code by CS graduates and found it to be as badly put together as you can get, ditto non grads, – lazy is lazy regardless of training level. I have seen brilliant code by non degree people and by degree people as well.

Personally I think the best approach to a job interview in the industry that I have seen was one where they had the test network done up with some faults and the candidates were given an hour to diagnose and identify the faults and then list what they would do to fix and then improve the system. Sorts the ‘know its’ from the ‘know it alls’.

I now have a number of diplomas in IT but only after working in the sidelines of the industry for over a decade and doing my own and family stuff for 2 decades. Whilst studying for the diplomas I got to know most of the teaching staff well, being the oldest of the few mature age students they were intrigued by my inclusion in their classes. In the second year there one of the teachers asked me to help her out – she taught software programming and had to pinch hit for a hardware teacher who called in sick, I had to give her a run down on what the stuff on the lesson plan meant and even teach part of the lesson for her. I was able to do this because I had the experience, I had learnt the more traditional way.

All a degree does is state that you have been taught this knowledge, that same knowledge can be self taught or learnt on the job.

Hey you want a case of degree orientated stupidity – There are many people who think that any degree gives you an advantage over any non-degree, something about have had to learn discipline and research skills. I have worked in office environments with people who got degree level entry with their archealogical degree, I am still trying to find the relevance to the work since it was the department of immigration doing paperwork shuffling.

I completely agree

In reply to Mostly true but such skills are not limited

I do not discount the worth of an IT degree, or college degrees in general. Until I had to drop out of college I got a lot out of my time there.

A circuitous chain of events led me to becoming a consultant specializing in adapting systems for blind and low vision users.

At no time did I not appreciate how much better a job I could do with a degree. On the other hand I was also getting job referrals from people with Masters degrees and PHDs in CS who said I was one of the best in the state.

When the state decided to phase out using consultants and hire people to do the job, all of the job descriptions that didn?t paid enough to keep a roof over my head all required a degree, any degree.

A Degree in Rehab engineering, CS or a related area was preferred, but not required. There was no “or equivelent job experience” phrase in the requirements.

So now I do something else.

Ability to learn

In reply to Mostly true but such skills are not limited

One thing that a degree does is verify that a person has the ability to learn information, process it and apply it in some form. Also, it verifies that a person can accomplish a goal…actually finish something.

This doesn’t mean that the grad is smarter or even a better candidate than the non-grad. It simply covers the basics.

In theory, you would think that a person with a degree was trained correctly, is well versed in the “basics” and is well rounded. This isn’t always the case, but what measuring stick do you have for a person without the education?

HR is always a crap shot, so employers always try to hedge their bets.

I’ve got all of those things and more probably.

In reply to Efficiency and reliability

Set theory and number bases I was doing in maths at at 12 – 13 years old. Boolean algebra, Karnaugh mapping at fourteen . I’ve studied predicate calculus, group theory, matrices, iteration, 2 & 3D geometry, still without a degree.

All a degree in CS dies is say you’ve achieved a particular standard of education. That standard can vary massively, you can buy the standard from a diploma mill. In the UK the standard has gone down badly, so schools can validate themselves with a high pass rate.
Even if none of that was true, a degree still doesn’t say you can apply those skills, seven years in IT does though.

Do you want to specialise ?
You could say I have as a coder, but as part of my job I’ve designed and implement databases, networks and web sites.
It’s a matter of emphasis, going for a developer spot, I concentrate on the development aspects and mention admin.

Another tip my cv says C since 1992 and then I list things I’ve done with it in various employments as a grand total it probably comes to about two years.

Don’t do yourself down because your experience is spread about, emphasise it.

I built four Db servers a web server, implemented a network, socket interfaced to a vms based system with fortran at one end and delphi at another, ftp interfaced to a HP3000, DDE interaced to eight PLCs, designed ther SQL server databases including triggers and cursors, set up an IIS intranet static pages with CSS pumped from a delphi client server service, interrogation pages via ISAPI dlls written in delphi, ending up with a 24/7 manuafacturing interface system for a business with a turnover in the hundreds of millions by myself. That was 96 – 99 by the way, and it’s still working, and the basic design is still in place.

Is that worth something, bet your ass, how many specialists and how much management would you have needed to do that with separate bodies.

Is it the best solution possible, almost certainly not, but when, in the real world does the best technical solution happen ?

It’s not master of none, but competent in all !

No degree and five turned up for the courses.

As for the last paragraph, so it’s your fault is it?. Did you inherit that responsibility off your dad, I’ve been sweeping up after that sort of bunny since 1985, and I’m getting really tired of it, so pack it in.

No different in the US

In reply to I think it is the universities that are to blame

From almost everywhere I have been “in the trenches” a degree in Computer Science is about worthless anyway. At the local state university here, you are still required to learn COBOL and FORTRAN. Why? The class that covers Windows and Windows applications is a freshman level class that is merely a quick overview. If I ran a computer company, I would be leary of anyone with a degree in Computer Science. The only relevant degree I have seen is the Management Information Systems degree, because at least it partially adresses what could happen in the real world. (This discrepancy is also why someone with an Associates degree in Applied Science in Network Technology is a hotter commodity than someone with a BS in Computer Science.)

I heard an anecdotal story at the university, which to me sums up the insanity of college/university mentality:

A man taught at a local college as an adjunct professor in Criminal Justice. A former policeman, he had written the textbook which was the defacto standard for a particular subject. The university wanted to hire him to be a full time instructor, but couldnt because he didnt have a PhD! The compromise was that he could be hired if he had a master’s degree. While working on his master’s, he had to take a class where the textbook was the book he personally had written.

The instructor, while looking over the class roster, noticed his name and the similarity of it to the textbook author. “Are you related to the author?” he asked.

My point? Life isn’t fair, be flexible. This is true for just about every career field. What I have discovered is that while life owes everyone a living, its incredibly stingy with its money. 🙂

Oh yeah…one other thing….

In reply to No different in the US

Many jobs dealing with computers have nothing to do with computers!

There was a posting on the Microsoft jobs site for Human Interface Developer. What was the requirement? Masters degree in Behavioral Science! Computer knowledge was minimal. Why? Because designing a graphical user interface has nothing to do with computers, it has to do with behavioral science. So the guy with the degree in psychology actually does have an edge over the computer science guys!

Application and Price

In reply to I think it is the universities that are to blame

When hiring I find the non-degreed and specialized candidate is more focused on the application of the system rather than the system. I am in the insurance business not the computer business. My unit is direct support to the business units. I need the computer to support the business functions and the candidates the college system is producing are not ready for the real world of business. Price wise the non-degreed candidate is a bargain also.

On the other hand….

In reply to Reply To: Fair Competition?

…I do like the allround experience that you have. In my humble opinion your degree and rich/diverse experience must be an invaluable asset.

Here Here!

In reply to Knowledge and skill should be the criteria

I applied for a position that was interviewed by a team lead who was all about certs and degrees. He was a young pup, and was a recently minted college grad himself. Of course, I didn’t get the job, and I found out later that he was no longer there, as the frat boys he hired only exacerbated his drinking problem.

I think it is just easier for interviewers to match degrees and certs to a crib sheet rather than determine if a candidate has any real skills.

From what I have seen coming out of the local university, the most common thing learned is how to drink when underage and how to stay looped most of 4 years and still get a degree.

So just get the cert!

In reply to Here Here!

If you’re saying it’s an HR thing, and that the cert is what’s important, then just get the cert. To sit on a skill/experience set or a degree, and demand it get recognition you think it deserves, is cutting off your nose to spite your face. If you were the owner of a company, and you needed a Windows programmer, would you hire the MCSD/MCAD or the BSCS? Consider this: the college I just left offers C++, not Java. What does the BSCS tell you, then? If you needed a Windows SQL database manager, would you hire the MSIS with a database specialty, or the MCDBA? Seriously, think about it. A BSCS is not a terminal degree, and you can’t stop learning or gaining experience. Part of that new experience is certification. If someone else can get certified without the BS or MS, give them the props, rather than the envy. You could have followed the same route, right? The rules are the same for everyone. Creating a union to protect your choice isn’t what the industry needs. It needs problem-solvers. If the problem is you lacking a certification or two, then do the extra work and get the certification. So who do you think they’ll hire, the short-track person with certs only, or the person with the certs AND a degree? Hmmm….

Seen it

In reply to Knowledge and skill should be the criteria

Worked in a place where someone with a bachlors in physical education would get the position before someone with an associates in computer science.

This is why corporations have personell management.

In reply to Knowledge and skill should be the criteria

The arguement of degree vs cert is a moot one. A person may have a degree an not know the subject matter, the same is true of the cert holder. However, (in my opinion only) the degree holder is typically the better candidate since the academic environment also demands a bit however small of personal interaction, not necessarliy true of the cert holder. I use my own case as an example. I hold two degrees in IT and both required classroom interaction, I also hold individual certifications from CompTIA and Microsoft, these required nothing more social than sitting alone in a computer lab plying the books then applying the knowledge to the software/hardware. Did I learn any social skills in the certification process? Not really. Did I learn the tech material better through the certification process? Maybe but I also lost the learning by interaction with people with a common interest in the classroom. So if a cert is to be considered better than the degree it would only be true of the cases where the certification exam were preceeded by formal classroom instruction where something more than the individuals interpretation of the material were present. I have met people in the IT industry with every cert in the books and the social skills of a rabid wolverine. I have also met people, very smooth socialites in supervisory IT positions, who have trouble finding the power button on a desktop PC.

Finding the right balance is indeed a rare moment, but there is no magic answer to what works best.

“Hiring managers hone you skills before making the hire.”

All qual types have their own problems

In reply to This is why corporations have personell management.

I don’t know what things are like in the USA and Canada (where most of you lot are), but here in Australia there are three main ways to get IT qualifications

University degree – CS, BA etc 4 years study in class.

TAFE diploma or certificate (tech college) – 6 months to two years class study and hands on, usually some work experience time.

Manufacturer’s certificate – CNA, MSCE etc – usually just pay fee and sit the test, but some people offer classroom training first.

The problem with most of the uni courses is that there is no or very little actual hands on or interaction with the real life situation, it is virtually all theory and sometimes it is behind the times and usually behind current industry practices. The problem with TAFE is that it does not give much in the way of the history or general science theory. The poblem with the certs is that they are over focussed and cover nothng outside the minimum to pass them.

A well rounded IT tech should know some history, some theory, have some practical experience and some sort of way to demonstrate skill and knowledge levels with either a qualification or a good work history. The ideal would have some TAFE qual to which they have added experience, then some manuf certs and a uni degree part-time. The experience would be the most useful.

I once got 6 months contract work by an IT company local office to take 3 uni grads, that were hired by head office, and teach them the practical side of what they needed to do the job they had been hired for. Four years uni training and they had never been in a server room or seen a patch panel – qualified future network and server engineers who had done the history and theory, gone through all the books and had not yet handled any actual hardware or worked remotely on any machine – only live computer experience being their own home computer. Not good. Mind you it was possible to give these guys a network diagram and they could work out the bottle necks and tell you how to improve the network – they just could not do the actual work. HO should have hired one to do the design and then two TAFE techs to do the actual work.

It is not that I disagree with you Cheer…

In reply to Knowledge and skill should be the criteria

but I was not out to take a job away from a CS Degree-holding…truly I was happy enough “drawing stuff” and getting paid for it. I was thrust into Network Admin with a large LAN/WAN, tech support for a staff with close to zero computing experience…in a building chock full of antiquated workstations, most of which were barely running Windows 98. Believe me when I say that “trial by fire” is an effective way to learn how to survive in an IT job. Would I like to get my degree now that I am doing the job…so that I could actually apply for and “get” an IT job? Sure I would! In my personal experience in networking with local IT professionals, it is the other way around – a degree will beat out 10-30 years of blood, sweat, tears…and god given talent any day.

I do but

In reply to Fair Competition?

I started learning computers in 77, got into the job in 87 and I’ve been doing it ever since. So it really depends on how much experience and in what.

Your post is a little confusing, I can’t figure out whether you’ve got the degree or you haven’t. Tell me and I’ll give you a few tips on how to compete.
Unless you’ve got some real experience in the subject area (not necessarily in IT), it’s very difficult to compete with someone with the bit of paper. If they’ve got paper and experience, then it comes down to personalities and relevance, or at least it should.

Reply To: Fair Competition?

In reply to I do but

Tony, I do have a Bachelor’s of Science in CS. What I was saying is that it seems quite unfair to spend 4 years studying CS and graduating, only to compete for a job with someone with a High School diploma and an MCSE or CCNA…or a course in C++…
I do respect the hands-on experience, but then, we shouldn’t have spent years earning a degree. Why can’t we do the same with Engineering, Law, etc? Can I go to work as a lwayer without a degree in law?
I might have the skills and talent to do a certain engineering job, but will the company hire me on that merit only?
I have concluded, that a degree in computer science is completely worthless (from work perspective.) If you want to work in the computer field but still want a university degree, then just get your degree in physical education or in music and then pass an MCSE or a CCNP, and you are good to go! Computer degrees are WORTHLESS! Employers have rendered that degree worthless!

Don’t want to cry in your beer

In reply to Reply To: Fair Competition?

but if you’ve run into an employer who takes experience over theory, to my mind you’ve run into one with a brain, as long as of course the experience is relevant and valid. I’ve gone for jobs stating five years experience (18 for me !) and been beaten out by a chap such as yourself with 18 months in. Not saying you can’t do the job, but mst employers will take your degree over experience, a lot of the time people like me don’t even get an interview.

Your degree is not worthless, but it’s no guarantee of a job, may be the guy without has been doing the job a long time, maybe he married the MD’s niece, maybe he’s cheaper, maybe he’s an ethnic minority and they’ve gone for a bit of tokenism, may be he did better than you at the interview, may be his cv was better presented.

Work on the things you can work on and try again.
If you’ve an experience shortage, see if you can get some voluntary work, or some short term stuff.

Learning and working hard didn’t stop when you put on your mortar board and cloak and stepped up for your be-ribboned scroll, they started. Buck up matey, I did it on effort and ability alone, so you’ve got a hell of a head start, come on me catch up.

Reply To: Fair Competition?

In reply to Don’t want to cry in your beer

Tony, your post is hilarious! 🙂
OK! Just to restate my point, I think that a Bachelor’s in CS should be important. After earning the Bachelor’s, one should go on and specialize. You do that by earning a CCNP, MCSD, MCSE, …or any of the certifications out there.
Isn’t that how it works in the medical field? Law? Engineering?…
As I had stated, can I go and apply for, say, an associate engineer position? Why not? I should be able to assisst in the daily activities, and in 4 or 5 years, I would have the experience to apply for a position of an Engineer!
I will take your advice and use them. Thanks a lot.

wow don’t know what to say.

In reply to Don’t want to cry in your beer

First off I think degrees are overrated and so are certifications. A person can spend 1800 dollars go to boot camp walk out a MCSE. It really doesn’t prove you can do the job. I know people who got let loose on networks with out ever seeing a windows server operating system. Needless to say they didn?t last nor did the data they lost. The same goes for university if you pay enough and just do the course work you will make the grade and graduate and then you have some nice wallpaper. The most technically savvy person I ever met in my life dropped out of school at the age of fifteen. I have never seen anyone who could do the amazing things he could. The things you learn in school are great and help with theory. However when you need a solution that meets the budget constraints and unrealistic time frames of the real world only experience can give you what you need to survive it. A lesson I learned the hard way. So maybe that?s why the high school drop-out next to you in the cubicle is getting paid more because he can get the job done.

Few “Gatekeeper” Degrees

In reply to Don’t want to cry in your beer

Tony’s point (if my interpretation is correct – don’t hang him for what I say!), is that the degree is an accomplishment not a gatekeeper. It counts in your favor, but is only part of the total evaluation. There are a wide range of things to evaluate for a potential hire and I think you will appreciate that fact the more distant you become from your graduation date.

I am also a little confused about the reference to “Engineering.” This is a pretty broad category, but having a BSEE, I can say I have worked with perfectly capable engieers who had degrees in other fields and some with no degree at all. I also can assure you that my college coursework covering FORTRAN, BASIC, and assembly language programming on an IBM mainframe provide no direct benefit to my job in 2006 and usually go unmentioned.

There are some occupations where one needs a specific degree to be awarded a specific title, but one can do legal work without a law degree and medical work without a medical degree.

A BSCS is a nice thing to have, but it is only part of the package. If one is beaten out for a job by someone without a degree, one can either blame the world for being unfair, or look inside oneself to understand why he is not the better candidate.

Look inside garbage …

In reply to Few “Gatekeeper” Degrees

When you don’t get a position it is largely because (in small companies) your salary requirements, tho in the range of what should be expected, were more than the owner is willing to pay.

In large companies, they sacrifice a lot on the golden altar of “diversity”, qualified staff being among that lot.

Trust me: If you have 15 or so years of IT experience, a touch of grey to the temples, are caucasion and are a vet of the Vietnam Era, you bring NOTHING to the diversity mix. The executive suite is overloaded with folks like you, and it is in the trenches where the diversity points are counted.

I chose the degree route to vlaidate my years of experience

In reply to Few “Gatekeeper” Degrees

This sounds so much like there is a complex going around, and that having a 4-yr degree should make you better than everyone else. Here is my take. I choose to get a 2-yr Associates Degree to Validate my 30 years of experience. Sure I have the equivilent of 6 years of Electronic Engineering Level training, I know how when you press the A on your keyboard how that gets to your screen (does the 4-yr Grad know that?) I experience the migration from Punched Cards, Paper Tape to Dumb Terminals, the integration of PC’s & 3270 protocols and finally networking. Does my experience mean LESS than a 4-yr degree? The classes I took, I had more REAL world experience than the instructors, I had one class that I rotated between 6 teams in order for the class to complete its project, simply because I lived the experience and knew what I was talking about.

Sometimes I envy those who have the 4-yr degree, some of them worked hard to get it, but that does not make them any better than I am. And unless they are Superman, they still put their pants (excuse me ladies) on ONE LEG AT A TIME, just like I do.

I have many aquaitences who have little more than a High School Education, have made MULTI-Million Dollars by working hard, and wisely.

Just because you think that the end of your 4-year journey got you a piece of paper, your Education has just started. Those of us with Silver Hair, will always have something to show you, or offer you, and can usually come up with a solution that is more common-sense that your Degree will allow.

Congratulations on your Graduation – Now get ready to learn something, if you put your ego in your desk drawer and quit acting like a spoiled kid.

before you get all riled and irate…

In reply to I chose the degree route to vlaidate my years of experience

…my comparison was mostly of same age groups.
I never meant those who were in business for 30, 40 or before universities opened computer science departments! RELAX, MISTER!
But then again, if you were in business before there were computer science departments, then a degree in engineering, math, science, philosophy, or even physical Ed was always there! 🙂

Here, here

In reply to Don’t want to cry in your beer

I beat Tony out in experience…30 years. Here in Phoenix, because there were so few openings with so many applicants, there was a real emphasis on certs. Well guess what they discovered? The paper proves nothing other than the ability to use the buzz words. So us old fogies are teaching each other the buzz words and then interviewing in terms of what we’ve actually accomplished, how much money we’ve saved the companies, etc. That is now getting us jobs. What a concept.

You’re kidding, right?

In reply to Reply To: Fair Competition?

So you’re blaming the employer for either your inability (unlikely) to get the necessary certifications or your unwillingness (most likely) to do it? It’s not their fault. The degree is worth tons, just not alone. If it’s such a good degree, it should be EASY to get the certification. Don’t be elitist, or jealous–just be hard-working and willing to do whatever it takes to get the job and pay you want. Own your future, don’t expect someone to hand it to you.

Sorry, welcome to the real world…

In reply to Fair Competition?

Your BSCS opened a door! What happens after you enter that door is dependent on the impression you make with your contribution to the group. Notice that I said “impression”. You may be the greatest thing for computers since Adam Osborne but if you can’t respect your co-workers and earn their respect — do you like flipping burgers?

BE AWARE:
1. Do you realize that your degree was obsolete before you obtained it and that you must continually upgrade your knowledge and skills? Are you willing to learn, on your own?

2. Are you flexible enough to learn systems totally foreign to your background? Sure, you know XML, SQL, HTML, C++, Java(script) and J++; but do you know Cobol, Fortran, Pascal, Perl and Unix? (Have you even heard of Polaris?)

3. Do you realize that while you were spending four (3?, 5?, more) years in college, your fellow-workers (now your colleagues) were probably work with the programming you were learning and have developed work habits and resources you can only dream of?

4. Do you want to grow or stagnate?

Your call.

Reply To: Fair Competition?

In reply to Sorry, welcome to the real world…

Hi! I never implied that one should just earn the degree and just bank on it and do no skill upgrading and no learning of new technologies.
My point was that, a bachelor’s in cs should be the benchmark and standard; anyone who aspires to work in the IT field, should have a Bachelor’s in CS. The rest of upgrading and continual learning is common sense 🙂

Reply To: Fair Competition?

In reply to Reply To: Fair Competition?

“a bachelor’s in cs should be the benchmark and standard; anyone who aspires to work in the IT field, should have a Bachelor’s in CS.”

I understand where you are coming from; however, I feel that you are mistaking the trees for the forest. do you want to be a worker-bee or do you aspire to higher (more responsible) assignments? A BS/BA is not a worker-bee’s requirement — it is an aspiring manager requirement in most larger businesses.

“[A]nyone who aspires to work in the IT field” must have the ability and knowledge to perform the required work. A Bachelor’s degree is not (and cannot be) a benchmark; rather, it is a signal that the person has had a rounded education (in areas besides computers) and has a basic orientation to software/hardware development.

To put a military spin on it, you have the qualifications for Officer Candidate School (OCS), are you ticked because Senior Enlisted personnel may “outrank” you before you complete OCS?

Disagree

In reply to Reply To: Fair Competition?

I was a Manager/Director without a BS for 9 years. Is that to say that a person with 2 – 3 year experience and a BS/CS is more qualified than I am?

The problem is that the bar keeps rising, and eventually we’ll all need MBA/MBS for entry level positions…essentially a world of educated idiots…

Thanks for the support! What disagreement?

In reply to Disagree

Your statement supports my case which indicated that no recent graduate should expect to know as much as an able, experienced employee.

The fact that “most larger” companies recruit from college graduates for their future management positions is NOT a statement that a college degree is a “requirement” for supervisor or higher positions in all businesses.

My point was that effective and efficient people will rise to responsible positions in many cases, with or without a degree. (Yes, I am ignoring nepotism and other prejudiced/bigoted realities.) However, a degree will make management entry/consideration “easier” for most people.

Please note that a degree is normally NOT an entry requirement for non-management positions. Degreed or not, many do not want the hassle implicit in most management jobs. Or, as in the Army, your Sargent would tell you:
“Don’t call me ‘Sir’, I work for a living.”

Also note, many, if not most, companies which prefer degreed management personnel will provide assistance (incentive?) to their employees in obtaining degrees related to the business.

Well, if I had a choice

In reply to Disagree

Of being an educated idiot, or an uneducated idiot, guess which I’d choose? Your presumption that educated folk are idiots makes more people inclined to believe you’d fall in the latter group. N’est pas?

The bar keeps rising because, as you may have noticed, technology and the world has changed significantly in the past 15 years.

If the new world requires an MBA or MSIS, get off your duff and get what’s required. If it requires a certification, then replace the whining with the studying and everything will fall in place.

Choose to rest on your accolades in light of employers clearly stating their preference, and you may be out of a job quicker than you thought 🙂

Like they say, get ‘er done. Whatever ‘er is.

I disagree too!

In reply to Reply To: Fair Competition?

I have 30 years in IT and only an Associate’s degree. Why NOW after 30 years do I need to have a BS in CS/MIS *AND* 30+ acronyms after my name just to be considered for a position?

See my post to Tmansops, above

In reply to I disagree too!

What disagreement? Apparently, you have been “successful” without a degree. If you are comfortable where you are and how you got there, then “Bravo!”
Are you “competing” for a higher position at your current location? If so, then how are you “marketing” yourself? Are you demonstrating a willingness to expand, be flexible, assume different responsibility? Ways of demonstrating such willingness are: to volunteer for community work (J/A, United Way, etc.), to take related courses, to obtain accredation(s), to obtain a degree, etc. Does your company have a “policy” of wanting certain positions to have a degree? Are you competing, or simply sitting there? (Laurels are pretty, but danged uncomfortable to sit on.)

A germane question — what size of company (business) are you considering a position in? Why? Smaller (venture?) companies tend to look for ability and ignore “averages” or “standards” when filling a need. Larger (established?) tend to look for standard types which will “fit in” with their norms or can be “trained” to their specifications.

My statement was that a degree will open doors and (like Professional Registration for an engineer) will demonstrate SOME capacity to learn and to accept minimal discipline.

BE AWARE: After 30 years of employment, you MAY have “hit the silver ceiling” where higher levels will only be offered to “younger” persons. [Yes, age discrimination after 40 is against Federal law; however, unless you are already at an “executive-level position”, you can PROBABLY forget about geting one in a larger business.]

“Silver ceiling”

In reply to See my post to Tmansops, above

I am looking for employment, as the result of a strike which forced my last employer to close. I am concentrating on small companies, because in addition to only having an AAB degree, I have only worked as the sole “IT person”, the largest employer having only 5 servers and 75 workstations. Larger companies just sneer, my college test lab was way larger than that! The BS degree is out of reach, since no accredited colleges will transfer any of the credits, and they want me to make up over a year of HS college prep courses that I never took, because I went to a vocational HS where I dual-majored in Accounting/EDP. Going full time including summers, it would take almost 6 full years to complete the degree which will put me at nearly 60. I admit, I’m in a very..very deep hole!

From research that I’ve gathered, most of the positions that I have applied for are receiving 75-100+ resumes, very intense competetion exists for few positions! And consulting has hardly been lucrative, as it seems that a significant number of smaller firms are simply doing without. It is ashame to go in and see total disarray in their shops, but……….

Have you considered your own business?

In reply to “Silver ceiling”

With your experience, you could “set up shop” as a “guru” — tutoring students and small business owners; selling network and personal computer solutions; and hiring out as a consultant to schools, local government offices, and local businesses.

I do not know your specialties, I’m sort of Wintel-centric; however, check out MS’ Small Business Center at http://www.microsoft.com/smallbusiness/hub.mspx
Special offer from MS in March, see http://www.microsoft.com/smallbusiness/small-business-summit/hub.mspx?xid=C0031

Sell MS, be a Partner, see: https://partner.microsoft.com/explore

Check out your local Small Business Development Center (SBDC), sponsored by the SBA — see http://www.sba.gov

Sounds like you want an exclusive club, not a job.

In reply to Reply To: Fair Competition?

Seems like you are upset because a smart employer will look for experience over your membership card (degree). I think the degree is a powerful indicator to an employer that you are starting out with more knowledge and hopefully more taught skills than someone without the four or so years in college. Other than that, you have to take the responsibility for getting your experience and knowledge up to a competitive level so you can improve your lot in life. I can tell you from experience that your degree will earn you a faster start in the IT field that someone with no degree or experience. It will not be taken as a substitute for experience in most places. Get your start, then work on keeping your skills competitive.

In Days Gone By

In reply to Reply To: Fair Competition?

Not in the too distant past. Lawyers became Lawyers simply by picking up a worn copy of Blackwells Rules of Law. Granted those days are gone, but how many in prison are able to adequately present a good defense and sometimes win.

I wonder if your attitude would be the same if you had not invested the time to get your degree? I’ve competed for positions that I know very well I can do an Outstanding Job, becauses of proven experience, only to be told I was not considered because I did not have the BS…

Let’s see – How many Pioneers in the Computer World have a Bachelors in CS? Bill Gates – No, Steve Jobs – No, how many others??? Your Degree is only a start – not the end! Count yourself fortunate to have the Experienced Tech Types around you who, are willing to pass on some of their knowledge to you, if you were to ask.

again and again…

In reply to In Days Gone By

…it’s not about complexes, arrogance, or anything like that! It’s about the…oh well, I’m too tired now to repeat myself…please, go back and read my post and some other posts. Basically, cs is my field where i invested my time and effort. Another guy/gal spent the same time studying physical ed or just not going to school at all and then coming to undercut me by flooding the market and lowering rates! Let alone, lowering quality!

your attitude

In reply to again and again…

you seem to think that you have more quality as an employee than some one without a degree. the simple truth is this. you payed a ton of money and spent four years of your life to get a little paper that will only serve to get you to the interview. the rest is up to you. quality is not determined by degrees. it is determined by your work. “produces quality work” will be on every eval you recieve, not “has a quality degree”. so go to work and BE BETTER than the rest. don’t just complain.

benchmark and standard ?

In reply to Reply To: Fair Competition?

so those of us who didn’t go to college should not be employed before some one with a college degree ? what if we know more than the guy with a cs degree? what if we are more experienced ? while you were away at college memorizing and learning theory, we were in the real world applying real world solutions to real world problems. if you want a benchmark and standard, how about proven ability. you have got to get over this “the world owes me because i went to college” complex or you will never advance.

Sign of the times

In reply to Fair Competition?

With a BS in engineering you should be applying for jobs that require a BS in engineering. Unfortunately there are not enough of them. So you must apply for jobs that don’t require a BS in engineering and compete with experienced people with no degree.

With a CS degree you should be applying for a programming job with a path to project management. With out the degree project management jobs are very difficult to come by.

BTY – You can be a licensed professional engineer without having a BS in engineering.

PE without the BS? Not likely today.

In reply to Sign of the times

Ancient History — about 15-20 years ago, one could typically substitute “10 years of competent experience” for the “4 years of competent experience and a degree” required by many states. If you were not “grandfathered” in such a state — basically, “fergit it” today.

Most states require a bachelor’s degree for a PE, some for an EIT, ET, etc. The specific degree required will vary by state.
For more details, surf to http://www.ncees.org/ or “google” the terms “PE registration” with the state’s name you are interested in.

find the right doors

In reply to Fair Competition?

Your degree and education does give you an advantage in certain areas of the industry. So there are specific jobs out there for you. If you are competing for the same job with people that don’t have degrees, than you are probably looking in the wrong place.

For those of us who don’t have the degrees, but bank on experience in the field, we do best in acquiring the all-round positions that need someone who’s dealt with the day-to-day headaches of commonplace IT. Meaning we’ve met with the common problems/issues that the average company has and therefore know how to deal with them. These type of find and solve problems cannot ALL be addressed in the classroom, as there are far too many to cover.

Your degree allows you to have the platform needed to specialize in a specific area of the industry where your skills would be more used for developing [i]new[/i] situations, programs or setups. And perhaps improving on existing setups. Your education will of course come in to play [i]sometimes[/i] when dealing with a common IT problem. But usually those things are best fixed with experience.

If ONLY…

In reply to find the right doors

…it were that easy. Without a BS you rarely get an interview. I had been an IT Director for 9 years, when a new CEO cleaned house, brought in her own people and replaced my position with a CIO/MBA. The new person has no management experience, no IT background at all really, but he has an MBA. Since then I’ve had to settle for a Network Admin position, and back answering helpdesk calls and fixing PC’s. It’s not only humiliating, it’s down right depressing knowing you’re qualified, but lack a piece of paper…

second the motion!

In reply to If ONLY…

I totally agree! Recruiters & employers now seem to be in the set BS, 5 yrs exp. MCSE, RHCE, CCNP, CCIE, CISSP, etc., etc., etc…….. Your resume doesn’t have the enchanted verbage, and it’s to the bit bucket! They won’t look past their nose, especially when they want an advanced Cisco cert for a position where it is doubtful you’ll ever lay a hand on a router! Although, it was explained that they want their personnel to have a total understanding of the network….

I feel you pain.

In reply to If ONLY…

I would be making half again or double my current income if I had a degree.

I’ve gotten sick of people why say “well why don’t you just get a degree…” since they are normally people who don’t grasp the work involved. Getting a 4 year degree when your are still living with your parents, or can get by on a part time job. Having tried to do it, someone who can work a full time job and get their degree has my respect.

I once considered buying a degree from one of those diploma mills, but I have moral issues with them. Besides, I?m not the sort of person who can even ?fluff up? their resume.

I got mine

In reply to I feel you pain.

I dropped out of college years ago because I ran out of money.

Recently, I went back. I’m married, with children and a full time management position (it was HARD to get that job.) I made it work because I understand the reality of the world. I didn’t want to piss and moan about it…I wanted to fix it. Thats just what I did.

I wish you all the best of luck.

Only thing I don’t understand

In reply to Fair Competition?

Engineers are not usually considered ‘IT’ or computer people. They often use computers in their jobs, as do police, firemen, actuaries, etc. Your posting is not terribly clear. And in US many ‘engineers’ need to pass certification exams while ‘computer scientists’ do not.

My last contract was as a

In reply to Only thing I don’t understand

senior design engineer. Software engineering, of course, but it was for an engineering company and that was how they layed out their hierarchy. Personally I just describe myself as a senior programmer or devloper. But I’ve been labelled as an architect, a designer, analyst ….

Fair competition, or fair advantage?

In reply to Fair Competition?

Maybe the guy who didn’t go to school didn’t do so not because he wasn’t smart, but because he couldn’t afford college. Maybe while you were in school getting educated, he was in the real world getting an education. Maybe the employer doesn’t care about a degree, else he would have made it a requirement for candidates who apply.

What do you REALLY want, fair competition, or a fair advantage?

All competition is fair competition

In reply to Fair Competition?

First of all, “Or maybe we should do away with degrees altogether, and one could go and apply for any sort of job as long as you demonstrate the willingness to do it and the enthusiasm to learn!”
Damn straight! I’ve been demonstrating just that for nearly 23 years now. I will take any position from any candidate purely based on drive, presentation and salesmanship. One thing I tell people all the time is that while you FEEL you need certs to find a career, if you can market yourself properly, you can dictate your line of work and even your payscale for every opportunity [i]you[/i] create.

I don’t care how much paperwork you have, if you can’t market yourself and prove your skills without expecting the world to operate on a ‘unionized/seniority basis”, then get in the unemployment line while I take your job.

Too rough? Welcome to the working world.

degree

In reply to Fair Competition?

I would like to say somthing in my fathers case being he is an electrical engineer.Where he works,to be considered part of the “technical staff” you have to have an engineering degree.You may do the same job without an engineering degree but you will not be considered part of the technical staff or get paid as such.Now he does space related work so im sure things dont change as much as the computer field.But i just wanted to point out where my father works their is a difference between having a degree and not even though you may do the same job.

Opinion From the Other Side

In reply to Fair Competition?

Here’s a story from someone (myself) who didn’t earn a CS degree, but wound up with a rewarding IT career anyway.

I went to college and got a B.A. in Psychology. I had always been into computers as a hobby.
My Psych degree was getting me nowhere except more school.
Meanwhile, I had to make ends meet, so I started selling computers. Then repairing and upgrading them. Then I graduated to tech support, both phone and corporate.
While grinding away at these low-end IT jobs, I began reading those 2000-page IT books on programming, NT, and Netware administration. I set up labs with old PC’s at home during my free time.
Eventually after a couple of years, I got lucky enough to be in a junior network admin position at a smaller company, where I was able to get even more hands-on experience.
Eventually I got my MCSE and CCNA, but I have since let them lapse.
From there my career has taken off in many directions, including management, but it is always my years of hands-on experience ad interviewing skills that have sold employers…not the paper I have earned.

You mention that your resume is not focused. I’m an IT generalist as well, and I find that I write a different resume for every position I apply for.
If I’m applying to be a DBA, then I omit all of my experience and skills except those that relate specifically to the position.
I even go as far as to change my titles on the resume. Everyone knows most IT people wear many hats. For example, lets say my “official” title at my old company was Network Administrator. My duties included being the SQL DBA. If I was applying to be a SQL DBA, my title on the resume would be “Database Administrator”. As long as I’m not falsifying or misrepresenting what I did, it’s OK. I’m just omitting irrelevant duties. That’s the focus your resume needs.

Sometimes small things like that really make a difference when looking for a job.

Most-excellent advice

In reply to Opinion From the Other Side

Kudos for your superior and practical advice.

Expectation of employment

In reply to Fair Competition?

A degree or a certification are just baselines to represent a standard of knowledge that a prospective employee has attained to qualify for the position, it is not the sole criteria for hiring. Having worked with the government, it is readily apparent were managers and supervisors have only hired based off looking at the education criteria as the employees performance and knowledge reflects on their work productivity, or lack there of. Other things that people utilize in their criteria is the period to obtian the degree – if it took you 8 years to get a 4 year degree it does not necessarily demonstrate competent knowledge. Certifications and degrees establish a expectation of knowledge for the applicant, the interview process determines the best qualified, I have had personnel selected for positions that did not meet the education requirements but have demostrated the knowledge – I have also had personnel that applied for a computer support postion that didn’t know how to turn on the computer. The employer has to establish an expectation of qualification for employment inorder to get qualified personnel.

Some other considerations

In reply to Fair Competition?

Whew! You’re getting lots of input on this one, but I’ve noticed that the group has missed a couple of important points.

First is the government contracting realm. If the government puts a degree requirement in the SOW, that’s it. The employer has no choice. Same goes for certifications. I recently got passed over for a job that I was highly qualified for, but didn’t have an obscure certification that the government stuck in the SOW. Unless the government is working with the contractor through a sole-source deal or they already have the contract and are replacing someone, they have virtually zero latitude in this. No degree=no job.

Second, although some posters have skirted around this, no one has actually nailed it down. You often have to look at the level of the job and the needs of the employer. Several posters have remarked that they can beat out anyone because they have zillions of years of experience which makes the degree irrelevant. Almost true, but not entirely accurate. The degree is important for entry- and mid-career positions where they’re looking at 10 years of experience or less. Those folks cannot (and probably don’t want to) compete for those jobs. The employers have a price range for the ideal candidate and those folks are above it. They probably won’t even get an interview. They are past that category. At their senior level, the degree becomes almost like that that summer job you had while in high school. It’s ancient history.

Finally, think of the degree as a discriminator. Many companies use them for just that. Two people apply for a job, one with a BSCS, one without. Both have 5 years of similar experience. Unless the person with the degree blows the interview, that person is more than likely going to get the job. They have shown that they can stick to a mind-numbing task all the way to the end (they have paid their dues).

PS. Law is a bad example to use in this case. You can’t practice law after just going to school. You have to pass the bar exam in the state first, which is designed to prove that you paid attention and actually learned something. Lawyers are VERY protective of their turf. They won’t allow the unwashed masses into their realm. 🙂

Experience VS Degree

In reply to Some other considerations

I have no degree OR certs but have been doing this work for about 10 years now. I realize I am part of a very small group and I also realize my lack of “paper” has set my professional ceiling lower than I would like. I came to terms with that a long time ago. Sure I have more experience than some but a degree says more than “I officially learned this”. A degree says you have the ability to commit. Even if it was in a non-related field.
Larger companies do require a degree and/or certs.
Booze Allen, SRA, CACI, Unisys just to name a few.
I just finished a 2+yr stint with Homeland Security. My contract drew to a close for compliance issues. Guess what….degrees are a part of that. You have it easier than you think…your just not looking in the right places.

Commit ?

In reply to Experience VS Degree

That one always annoys me, it’s so much crap it’s unreal. Try working shifts, bringing up a family and doing corespondance courses, to take a ?5k drop in take home pay for your first real IT job. That’s commitment.
Guy’s like us don’t get in through the back door, we knock a hole in the wall and step through.

It IS kinda stupid…

In reply to Commit ?

“Commit” is a bit of an insult to those of us who have commitments to our families and such.
Shift-work in itself is a commitment. I chose that word because that is how it has been decribed to me so many times before.
Thank you for the wake up pinch…next time someone mentions the “c” word to me, I will remember your footnote.

The academic nazis

In reply to It IS kinda stupid…

would have us believe in the enormous amount of effort it requires to get a degree.

They might be right, however one can expend an enormous amount of effort and be fully committed when having a s**t as well.

So it’s not a stand out part of the proposition as far as I’m concerned.

Which end?

In reply to The academic nazis

I agree, only I would call it Academic Elitism.
“The first act in any leaning is an act of humility”
Mark Twain said it best, “I managed to lean a few things in spite of my education.”

Pure knowledge, here’s Bill Gates a Harvard drop out, and here’s these schools now that owe their very existence to him. Must be a tough pill for them to swallow.

Personally…

In reply to Fair Competition?

I am a grad of a technical school. I took some college courses but finished up by going to an accelerated probram. By going through this type of program I obtained several certifications. From what some collegues tell me a lot of them wish they didn’t go to college because it wasn’t just a focus on computers. I’ve also been told by other employers that the only thing they are looking for is a CCNA. So I feel it is fair for anyone to compete in the computer industry. The world revolves around computers and if someone, even someone with a different degree or no degree, can do the job better than you then they should get the job.

Your absoloutely right

In reply to Fair Competition?

I think you’ve hit the nail right on the head. I have an A+ certification and i would not dream of going for any kind of high paid job in the computing industry because i feel there is still a lot more to learn. I am currently doing a HND in computing and then i go on to a degree in CS now im wondering if it is worth the hassle if some scally with a certification is more entitled to a job than i am. The only thing i can say is that people with certifications do not have as much theory or practical experience as someone with a degree because they did not have enough time as the degree student to master what is needed to know. These certifications are not worth the paper they are written on and anyone with one will soon come undone in the work place.

So get both

In reply to Your absoloutely right

It’s not rocket science. (although someone with a BSCS likes to think it is)

certifications are not worth the paper they are written on

In reply to Your absoloutely right

You said, “…certifications are not worth the paper they are written on.”

Neither are degrees.

In either case, it’s what you do with it that provides the “worth”.

Missing the Point

In reply to Fair Competition?

Using a degree or certification as a “benchmark” is completely missing the point. While I do agree that there should be minimum requirements for IT positions including a BS. It is not the only criteria.
Skill, aptitude, willingness to learn, experience (where appropriate), etc. are all important aspects for a candidate.
We have all seen the high-school drop out types who are incredible at what they do. I had a supervisor who did not have a college degree and was a member of MENSA but these people are rare. I have also seen people with a 6 month Microsoft certification who didn’t have a clue. Unfortunately, these people are more prevalent.
This is why I believe that a minimum standard of a BS degree is required. Please note, degrees in and of themselves do not measure a candidate’s success but they do give the candidate the basic tools to be successful and thereby gain much needed experience. Certifications (Microsoft, CISCO, PMI) expand the professional’s skill level but should be an add on to a degree not a minimum standard.
As for coworkers that are perceived to be more successful and less qualified (degree or certification not withstanding) this condition in the workplace has always existed and will continue to. The old saying of ‘Its not what you know but who you know’ still holds true.

Well you got the BS

In reply to Missing the Point

part right.
You don’t need a degree to learn the basics, in theory the award of a degree means you know the basics. Course we all know that’s not true. I haven’t got a degree, for me now that would be a useful as an inflatable dartboard.
I didn’t get where I am because of who I know, I got here because of who I am.
The basic tools to be sucessful, are enthusiasm , drive, a willingness to learn, application and innate talent. A degree proves none of these things.
If degrees and certs were a standard I might agree with you but I’ve worked with people with either or both who weren’t fit to hold my coaster steady when I reach for a much needed coffee.

YES

In reply to Fair Competition?

Yes, there are “non degreed” engineers working in industry but they usually have a ton of design experience and do not get paid the same (usually a lot less).

Holding a degree tells me more about a person than the attainment of knowledge. They certainly will not retain most of what they learned. Without picking up the phone and talking to the person or interviewing the person, you can reasonably say the following about that person:

1. Goal oriented
2. Ability to follow through
3. Intellectual flexibility (WILLING to be trained in different subjects)
4. Can make a committment
5. Is capable of followiing established guidelines and rules

NOTE: I did not list that a person with a degree is smarter or better than one without the degree.

Also, attaining a certification can demonstrate the same attributes as attaining a degree just on a shorter time frame.

A certification is more “targeted” while a degree is more broad-based.

Usually, HR uses paper (degrees and certificates) to weed out or sort through multiple candidates. In other words, they may get 100 resumes for a posted position and they will not go though each one.

With your degree and background I would think you are getting ready for a management position – MIS Manager, IT Manager, etc where you have people reporting to you.

You are making me laugh

In reply to YES

I wanted to work in IT since I was 14
I ‘ve been working in it since 1987
I done admin, DBA, coding and WEB stuff on four different plaforms and that’s just my commercial experience
I go my first job doing corespondance courses and teaching myself, while working shifts and raising my family.
I compose the guidelines and rules and then I lead people along the path they suggest.

Not being picky but there are a lot of graduates posting here who can’t get a job in IT or it isn’t meeting their expectations, so what goal did they have, and how committed are they ?

I wouldn’t say someone who got a degree doesn’t have all these attributes, but to say a degree is a reasonable guarantee of them is complete bollocks.

I’m just saying

In reply to You are making me laugh

I’m just saying what others actually perceive about you, me, and others.

I’ve been in both positions. I worked from 1986 to 1998 without a degree in an engineering, manufacturing, and IT role.

I earned my first degree in 1998 (Associates), second degree in 2002 (Bachelors), and third degree (MBA) in 2005.

By the way, nothing is guaranteed! However, the percentage of probability for those attributes does increase with degreed individuals. That’s something that can be shown by many different studies.

They are not just my opinion – it’s simply how the business world views candidates. I’ve seen the difference (they way businesses and hiring managers react)first hand too. It (the treatment)is different and you can laugh all you wish to about that but I don’t think you can reasonably deny that it isn’t true.

There are exceptions to everything such as Bill Gates (only 2 years at Harvard) but you see it over and over again where people with a certain level of education earn considerably more over their lifetimes than those with less education.

It’s because well educated people have an advantage over those with lesser or no education. You’re not denying that, are you?

over 50

In reply to Fair Competition?

In any event earn and save your money now…. because when you get to be 50 YOU HAVE NO CHANCE even if you are a professional. Do you think it is fair for a prospective employer to discriminate against and tell me they don’t even want to look at my resume, they want someone younger…..

AND ITS A PROFESSIONAL POSITION AND I HAVE GREAT EXPERIENCE.

Rejected because you are over 50?

In reply to over 50

If those companies were so foolish as to document that. You may want to see a lawyer. Check out the Dept. of Labor site: http://www.dol.gov/dol/topic/discrimination/agedisc.htm
Life begins at 60, Age discrimination starts at 40.

Rejected because you are over 50?

In reply to Rejected because you are over 50?

Thanks for the links….. great on paper…

I have no chance to fight these guys… I will only hurt whatever chances I have Remember, these are Bush days….

At 50 is a great gateway to PM path

In reply to Rejected because you are over 50?

Having a solid techie/CS background is a great path to being an excellent PM. At the PM level you aren’t necessarily expected to be the latest technical mind but you need to be fairly saavy, and be worthwhile in concepts and processes. Take my advice, point for the PM path and surround yourself with energetic sharp young minds. Them along with a good assigned senior tech lead or architecht and you’re on your way!!! If you have that kind of interest and background and are interested in South Florida feel free to contact me direct.

Project Management — Never too old…

In reply to At 50 is a great gateway to PM path

Good point! If one is flexible and willing to allow someone else to “play with the computer.”

BS in Computer Sciences worthless?

In reply to Fair Competition?

In effect, I don’t think it is right for employers to degrade the BS in CS. I don’t care what they say, a BS should not be comparable to a certification. We talking about a 4 years degree compared to a 4 months certification. One is called degree, the other one is called certification. Evidently we learn more in 4 years that we do in 4 months. 48 months versus 4 months. Do the math. They say it is an experience thing. So the guy with the BS doesn’t have any experience. I understand that. But he or she can learn way faster than the certified guy due to his education level. Plus, beside computers, he or she learned a lot of other subjects or discipline such as psychology, management, leadership, human resources, etc… So he should get credits for that. Just think about it… Do not be biased in your jugement.
Marley

Don’t be ignorant!!

In reply to BS in Computer Sciences worthless?

Just because somebody has a BS in computer science doesn’t mean he is able to learn faster than somebody with certifications only!!

Job relevant quals means horses for courses

In reply to BS in Computer Sciences worthless?

One point that seems to have been missed in this discussion is that many people advertise for specific certifications because they want someone who knows that specific hardware or software that can walk into the job at 9 am and be fully productive at 9.05 am the same day – they want specific experience. While a degree is a more generalised training and will often require some local training to do the job fully.

Use the degree as entry and then get some certs to go with it and you have a very big advantage. I have been working in and out of the computing industry since 1979 and started getting some qualifications to go with the learned skills in 1996. I now have a couple of TAFE (Technical school) diplomas and some certificates to go with my experience. Funnily my last two jobs swung on having a certificate that qualified me to teach adults what I already knew – the employers wanted someone who could educate the users about the simple technical things instead of coming back each week to rebuild a virus laden machine.

No degree or certification is a guarantee of any sort, just a starting indication. You then have to add experience to make it worth while. And what the employer wants will decide what the ask for.

As another pointed out a degree is a big advantage in the government job and contacts and some big business.

Not worthless…

In reply to BS in Computer Sciences worthless?

But not exactly worth a fortune either …

48 months vs 4 months, hmmmm….

48 months? By my math it would be more like 8 mo x 4 = 32 mo (eight months is more than generous).

Still, 32 mo is 8 times greater than 4 mo…

Of course a BS in Computer Science basically consists of 10 CS classes with a load of other tripe thrown in to round out our student. Most people can easily carry 3-4 classes in one semester:

Lets say one semester equals 4 months. Three or four classes per semester would only take 3 semesters, or about a year, to complete.

Now we have 12 mo vs 4 mo.

And that 4 mo. cert is normally targetted at the specific skill the employer is interested in. About 1/3 of the CS portion of a BS degree could conceivably be in this specific area as well.

Now we have 4 mo vs 4 mo.

Hope that helps 🙂

CS Certs and degrees are required for the same 3 reasons:

1) It indicates that the applicant is capable of learning.

2) It indicates that the applicant has some desire for a position in CS (as she/he bothered to get the cert/degree)

3) But in these more competitive days it is mostly to help winnow down the applicant pool to a manageable level.

A formal education is never worthless

In reply to BS in Computer Sciences worthless?

You are comparing 4 months of specific learning vs 4 years of what is intended to be well rounded education. First of all, if you want a career in IT, then a CS degree is probably overkill, IMHO. Microsoft has reduced the operations of computers to those who know what windows to bring up, what options to choose, and what cables to plug in. (I have looked through and sat through a few MS certification courses….most of the book pages are screen shots of their programs) If you goal is to be an Access DB programmer, than a CS degree is overkill. UNFORTUNATLY, ppl in hiring positions think that just because you are an ace Access DB programmer, you can just as easily do WEB design without any basic knowledge of how it works or related issues such as security and confidentiality (for example). It also depends on the size of the company. My personal opinion is to hire a degree person in almost all cases because they tend to be more universal in their skill set, and because of that, they can pick things up quicker. Ppl in IT mgmt don’t understand that because most of the time, IT mgrs are promoted bean counters. If it were an engineering company, the one-flag wonder would not be hired. I once had the joy of fixing a fairly large real time system that was written in C by a phd music major who was very proud that she had become a ‘C’ programmer and knew lots of C tricks which she exhibited throughout the program. Unfortunately when very strange and unexplanable (wrong) program behavior was observed 2-3 months down the road, she proclaimed her stuff as ‘flawless’….oh to the contrary. If I were king, she would not have been hired in the first place..Another short example, VBasic wonders who do web design – who write pages of monlithic code without the slightest idea that there is a testing activity in parallel with development. Also, these same VB wonders don’t ever think if testing their own code..
So, IMHO, I’d take each situation on a case by case basis, but I am predisposed to those with a 4-yr degree.

Fair Competition response

In reply to Fair Competition?

Cheerstork:
You having studied computer science you have to know that having a degree just means that you put in your 3-4 yrs in general studies, and 2 yrs in computer scienc related courses. In our field (Information Technology, one can pick up a book and learn how to resolve desktop support issues or learn how to code. One can even learn the in’s and out’s of MS Office and obtain a position in support.
The difference between you and the person who picked up a book to learn to code is that you are a well rounded employee. You took buisiness courses, and are more capable of making not only technical decisions but economical-financial decisions that may apply to your field. There are very few people out there that just picked up a book and know every technical term, and can run and make buisiness like deicisions(mgr, cio, cto, etc). Second you’re closer to becoming mgr’ial material once completing your MBA. I doubt someone without those type of credentials will be overlooked for someone without a degree.
Now my last point will hurt. Our field is is somewhere you can get your foot in the door with any degree. Not so much in code. Just in a support helpdesk capacity, and then move up to code with additional training (certifications). But you can’t take someone with a computer science degree and ask them to what an electrical engineer, or a civil engineer does without training, or an additional degree in that field.

Apples & Oranges

In reply to Fair Competition?

Actually, I personally know 2 guys who worked as Engineers (at Intel) who don’t have a degree. One got his preliminary training in the Army and the other worked his way up from being a debug tech.

And if Dr. Laura is any indication, it’s perfectly fine to provide psychological counseling on a national tadio call in show & write authoritive books without having a degree (let alone a doctorate) in Psychology. If you, as a BSCS got a simple certificate in marriage, family & child counseling you could do the same.
But if you wanted to prescribe antipsychotic drugs, then yes, you’d need a medical degree to.

Anyone who can pass a Bar exam CAN practice law legally – you don’t technically have to have a law school degree. Same with realtors, insurance agents, etc. You don’t need a 4 yr criminal justice degree to become a cop, or a prison guard (or attain upper management positions in those fields). Anybody can write a best-selling novel – you don’t need a BS in Literature.

My last boss was a woman who only had a 2 yr degree in programming but went on to become an accounting manager and then Controller for a company – with no 4 yr degree at all (least of all in business or accounting).

My point is, the only 4 yr degrees I would say taht provide anything close to a “guarantee” of hirability in today’s job market are engineering and nursing.

READ THIS even if you skip all else!

In reply to Apples & Oranges

Amen. Absolutely nobody could have said it better. No degree is a guarantee. I like Domino’s pizza, but I don’t care if the guy making it is a Chef d’Cuisine from a nationally accredited culinary program or some mechanic making money on the side. If he can do the job, I don’t care what his training was.

Fair Competition

In reply to Fair Competition?

There are point that you raise that I agree with it is not fair for someone who has little to no experience and no college degree get the job. I have worked in the IT field for almost 15 years and do not have a degree. I am certified in several areas. I am more qualified them most college student that graduate in Computer science. Do these graduate have experience? I have worked with people who have a degree in CS and still do not know the basic trouble shooting or how to fix there own computers.
Is is fair for a company to hire on thse who have degree???

Evidence of the natural evolution of IT

In reply to Fair Competition?

Interesting discussion among what one might consider a bunch of “upstarts” with only a few “geezers” chiming in.

Submitted, for your consideration, an historical perspective:

Though I don’t know much about the histories of law and engineering as professions, it’s reasonable to assume that they, too, went through growing pains as the early, less-“educated” practitioners aged out and the requirements for new people tightened. It happened that way, too, in osteopathy (D.O.), allopathy (M.D.), pharmacy (R.Ph.), and other now-matured professions. It just took them a lot longer because IT didn’t exist yet.

In the Information profession, many of us geezers jumped into an exciting nascent field with little or no higher education (as not much education was available for this stuff even if we’d tried), and figured it out and even invented it along the way.

We were cowboys (and cowgirls), learning and doing and improving every aspect of the field. We were experts in both hardware and software, building s desktop or server from parts and pieces one day, coding an app the next, debugging ROM for a mfgr the next, designing expandable network structures the next, running and terminating cables the next, and many many other things.

We were the proverbial sandaled, suspendered, bearded (well, not all), pizza-guzzling geeks of legend. Many of us had only the merest of business or people skills because we were too busy doing the cool stuff.

It is our very experience and knowledge from which are being developed the standards and the education (such that it be) that are beginning to become necessary for entry into this still-maturing profession. But, in this case, it’s happening much more rapidly because of the very success of the profession.

Hang in there, younglings and Cheerstork and others. You’re stuck in IT’s adolescence at the moment — and you remember how bad adolescence was, don’t you?

The geezers are having it equally bad these days (specialize or die, paper certs, clueless degrees, HR indimidated by gray hair), evolving into other areas; some choosing to overcome or just to survive to retirement; others leaving for greener garages; some forced out and rediscovering lives they’d left behind decades ago or supersizing the fries.

It is this geezer’s personal opinion that IT will eventually become a degree-certified profession, perhaps requiring an undergraduate background in industrial psychology, business, or finance, and then post-graduate professional school.

Too bad, methinks, because it’ll be taken over by pencilheads (keybaordheads?) and silvertongues who pass the MCAT/LSAT/GRE-type admissions exams.

Then I guess the geeks and nerds will just have to go back to the garage and invent yet another new profession! Can’t wait!

Nuff said

In reply to Evidence of the natural evolution of IT

Excellent end-cap…

Nice

In reply to Evidence of the natural evolution of IT

Can’t see myself in sandals, but I can be a bit reluctant to go near a razor.

Bearded ladies

In reply to Nice

Funny thing about the “maturing” cowgirls: we have to work hard to keep from resembling the ol’ bearded UNIX programmer!

(But I can probably still wield a mean slide-rule. Bet you could, too. 🙂

Never learnt how to use one

In reply to Bearded ladies

Now log tables …
Tried showing my kids how they work and they said why didn’t you use a calculator ?
weren’t allowed them
How did you add up
Well ….

Computer Science != Information Technology

In reply to Evidence of the natural evolution of IT

Most jobs in IT don’t require a Computer Science degree. I don’t think I would hire a Computer Science graduate to fix my computer. Mistakenly a lot of people think that a computer science graduate should know how to diagnose and fix every error on every PC. I think that most people miss the point of what computer science is about. It is not equivalent to information technology. A computer science program is a robust program that teaches in general terms how computers work (not specific architectures), how compilers work, how programming languages work, how operating systems work, algorithms for solving particular programs, efficiency of various algorithms, logic, etc. No other program gives this. Computer Information Systems is about applying technology to business – it works from the standpoint of fixing business problems. Computer Science is more theory (even though it’s programming intensive). Vendor/technology specific courses are only teaching you their particular products whether or not they are suited to every situation.

Most jobs in IT require specific skillsets or programming languages so if an employer is looking for exact matches for skillsets and programming languages he may choose a Philosophy major with 2 years programming Sybase over the Computer Science graduate with no experience in Sybase. Many employers are looking to fill specific needs in the cheapest way possible. Don’t be fooled. Other employers are looking to invest in new employees and they might choose the CS graduate feeling that the technology they use itself doesn’t matter because it would change in a few years anyway. It costs more money to hire someone with no experience at a particular thing because of the learning curve and the costs of any training they may send that person to.

People in computer science programs are always complaining that they are not always learning the latest, greatest thing but that is not the point of the program in the first place. Someone who only knows the latest, greatest thing soon won’t have any relevant skills because the latest, greatest thing will have changed to something else in a few short years. Computer science graduates should have the background to work on a variety of things because they understand the theory behind the technology itself.

At any rate, the computer science graduate has more options. You might see a lot of “uneducated” people programming in Visual Basic, but how many do we see inventing new languages? There is a whole research component to Computer Science that most people don’t think about. Where do new operating systems come from? Where do new programming languages come from? Where do new encryption algorithms come from? Computer scientists develop things that most people take for granted.

Regarding fairness: Nothing in life is fair. Things are simply how they are. If you feel that you bring more to the table because you have a CS degree then you should be able to verbalize what that is (more than just saying I have a degree). It should also show in the quality of the work that you do. I have a CS degree and a forensic science degree as well. I’m now doing Computer Forensics after 8 years as a programmer. You don’t need a degree in computer science to do computer forensics but I am aware that I have an advantage over those that do not. I don’t walk around like a snob because of this, however. The advantages that I have should make me more efficient and effective in my work – and that should show up in my paycheck. It’s all about knowing your own worth.

If u were leaving school now…

In reply to Fair Competition?

If I could turn the clock back I think I would try and get myself a couple of crappy PCs and maybe a router and\or a switch. Then do the exmas and get in the job market. I would still do my degree, but I would do it at night. Be nice to be earning money whilst studying instead of scraping by on summer job earnings.

We can’t blame employers for picking people with skills they need. I think they could be making mistakes with some choices. There are still the “paper mcse’s” out there who are good at exams but crap at solving problems.

Academia have let us down. They have not kept up with the job market demands. Some don’t even see it as their responsibilty. They give us education, not training or apprenticships. Wish they tell us this when we are filling out our college appliation forms! Understandable too bc with the changes in technology for uni’s and colleges to keep upgrading is very expensive and they just can’t afford it. Also finding the staff to teach. Probably why I learned COBOL and RPG in college “it’s still huge in the finance sector” instead of visual basic. That said I’m sorry I didn’t keep it up and cash in on the Y2K bandwagon! 🙁

When all is said and done I’m sorry I didn’t get into the trades. Builder, chippie, sparkie, plumber. Even tilers and painters earn a fortune these days. Better pay, hours, strong unions and nothing like the stress or responsibilities.

I think it’s the career guidance counsellors that are the real villians!

Fair? Is that a joke?

In reply to Fair Competition?

Fair? No, it’s not fair. It’s not fair for someone with 4 years of school to come in and compete with 16 years of experience and expect some type of preference because of their major. Sorry you’re not happier with your choice of collegiate endeavor. Sell the atari, move out of your parents basement and take a job that will allow you to build a skill set to match your fine academic achievements.
Look for opportunities that will allow you to focus on TCP/IP routing and/or switching, Microsoft engineering, Solaris, anything to get engaged in the industry.
Build your resume and keep moving upwards. About 8-10 years ago, the trend was to hire “whiz kids” with BSCS degrees to come in and manage IT groups because they had BSCS degrees. More and more, companies are looking for managers with “other” qualifications. In the end, management is management. If you want to work IT, don’t get caught in that trap. Stay technical and keep your hands in the dirt, because when the reorg comes, mid-management goes first.

Employer’s Perspective

In reply to Fair Competition?

Think about it from an employer’s perspective. If I have an open position for a programmer, who am I going to interview / hire?

It’s whoever is the perceived best person for the position, right? Do I really care about the degree? Only to the extent that I need to filter my candidate pool (I have too many) and I believe a degree in CS makes a person better suited for a job.

If I don’t believe that a degree in CS is any better than a degree in, say, Bio-Technology (and based on experience I don’t) then my criteria becomes “have a degree”, not “have a CS degree”.

And if I don’t believe that a degree has any value at all as a filter then I don’t use it as a criteria.

Is that fair? Unquestionably. As an employer, why in the world would I artificially limit my pool of candidates based on an irrelevant criteria? I’m not after “the best CS candidate”, I’m after “the best candidate…period”. Limiting my candidates based on an irrelevant criteria is a poor business decision, and I’d give strong consideration to firing anyone working for me that utilized that as a criteria.

Same thing in terms of a manager – if I’m really after a manager give me someone that manages people well (degree status – irrelevant) and I’ll teach them what they need to know on the technical side (which shouldn’t be the nuts and bolts – that’s what the folks reporting to him/her are for). Much easier (and effective) to do that than to take my top individual performer who’s not a people-person and try to teach him/her people skills.

Fair?

In reply to Fair Competition?

I hold several certifications and am forced to return to college to compete with people who have degrees. I have 10 years of experience and my company does not recognize certifications. I think it is silly to base hiring an individual on either certifications or degrees (solely). There are so many more factors to consider. The most overlooked factor is experience. If I were filling a position I do NOT want a recent grad or cert student without any experience.

I personally value certifications more highly for technical content. College CS curriculums, in my opinion, do not keep up with the speed of technology whereas certifications do. On the other hand, a degree path shows an employer that the candidate can follow through on a long term goal and has a basic knowledge of grammer, math, technology etc.

I think that there has to be a healthy respect for both. There would be no need for having a set starting point “benchmark” if the position criteria was based on who best performed a job. The problem is that some IT managers do not have the technical ability to evaluate skills.

Throughout my department the idea of cert v/s degree is about as bi-polar and strongly opposed, depending upon who is asked. Those with certs tend to be in favor of the certification paths. Those with degrees do not tend to value the certifications very highly. Those with both will not say that either are a bad thing.

Ability is what counts

In reply to Fair Competition?

There are many roads that lead to Rome. Knowledge in this day can be gathered in many different places by anyone who truly seeks it. I went to school in the 70’s, but I leaned computer programming on my own. I have a library from the earliest 6508 processor to Oracle 9, and XML. I think in this tech economy you have to be self-taught to a large degree. The only thing that really matters when you load up your code is, does it run, or does it crash. Performance, and ability should be the baseline measurement. I may have limited formal education written on my resume, but in terms of achievements, have developed a number of practical, and functional databases programs, and be a wiz at writing P-SQL, and stored procedures. Would I be a greater asset then say someone with a BS, or MS who?s still fumbling around tweaking their final school project?

If you love what you do you will win

In reply to Ability is what counts

As mnoldsea says, “Ability is what counts”, and a certain passion for what you are doing. I left school in the early 80’s, with good grades in the most basic of qualifications “C.S.E’s”, my last 2 years at school I was messing around with basic programming on Sinclair ZX80, ZX81, early home computers. It became my favorite hobby, loved the graphics side the most. I went into a plumbing apprenticeship, and continued messing around with Sinclair’s (spectrums, wow, colour and lower resolutions lol), I was finding plumbing rewarding, but struggled with one or two employers (young & arrogant I was).

Dropped out, left home at 18, went to London, and walked into a job interview advertised as ‘Computer Graphics Assistant’, took a few tests on a digitizing tablet and got the job. Two years later I was a shift supervisor, assistant trainer, and later a team leader. What I found strange at the time was that there I was, minimal quals, working with people older than me and well qualified, but more importantly I loved the work. I did’nt appreciate all that at the time, being young and foolish (to say the least), but it proves the point, you can achieve your goals, with or without a degree or even college certs.

In the end you are what you do best, the rest is purely academic and history, focus on your strengths and keep learning, make the most of where you work now, the rest will evolve naturally.

If you must gain a Degree or need to have various Certs to suit your chosen path, thats fine, as you know there are umpteen jobs anything less just won’t do, either way you are self taught, self diciplined and obviously motivated, in the end it’s all the same. A bit like passing your driving test, once passed, then you learn to drive, and IT like driving conditions, will always be on the change, sit back, relax and enjoy the journey, along the great learning curve that is all of life.

And don’t forget, keep reading some good books along the way.

Fairness: do you claim comparable qualifications?

In reply to Fair Competition?

If you know psychology as well as the psychologist in your example, or if you know engineering as well as the engineer, perhaps we can discuss “fairness”. Otherwise, it is a fact of life that computers are in use in all professions, and anybody may Google a topic of computing that interests them, which they encountered while doing other research, and become an expert in some aspect of computing, without obtaining a 4-year degree in computer topics. Deal with it.

Psychos are everywhere…

In reply to Fairness: do you claim comparable qualifications?

…and we deal with them on a daily basis–on the street, in the office, on the train, and sometimes online–that’s just a fact of life. Having said that, can one say that we have ample experience in dealing with psychos, therefore, one ought to be able to land a job in the field, eh?!
We deal with medical issues throughout our lifetime, and we get to know and learn quite a bit about medicine, health, and etcetera. Can I open a clinic?!
I, for instance, know quite a lot about health and healthful diet and how to lead a healthful and energetic life style. Can I become a dietitian?!!
I mean, pal, I can’t open a shop to repair freakin’ cars, even though, by necessity, most of us know a heck of a good deal about cars and car repair! I must be a *licensed* mechanic first, in order to be allowed to open the shop!! The city won’t let you work as an electrician (not even an electrical engineer) unless you have earned a license!

Just face it. It isn?t about snubbing those who never bothered to do things the right way and earn a well-rounded and professional education. They chose the easy path. Well, it is just that. They just can’t have certain IT positions.
Excluding exceptions, if you hire only those who have the “theory” and who took the long and arduous path to knowledge, maybe, just maybe, you will have better, efficient, robust and reliable systems, in addition to a professional work environment–let alone not having to deal with a single sentence that spans an entire 5-line paragraph!!

“Theory” is the terra firma upon which you can specialize and earn your certifications and formalize your experience. As many mentioned, in most cases, the ones with the “theory” are the more adapt and faster to learn and do things right!
Just so I don’t have to repeate this ad nauseam, I’m mainly excluding those folks who got into the field decades ago and before colleges opened computer-related departments. (Although, even those, could have tried to earn a technical degree!)
I had earned a certificate in programming in C/C++/UNIX before earning a BSCS. However, I decided that if I were to work in a field, I ought to know what I’m doing and what I’m talking about. Hence, the long path to a degree was my choice. If it were about just knowing how to program, I never needed the degree!
People “deal with computers on a daily basis” and think that qualified them to go for a job! Some one learned how to write a FOR loop and thought they became programmers!
No wonder, systems fail and drag!!
Yes, Bill Gates dropped out of college. Hey, exceptions make the rule nowadays? By the way, Bill Gates was more of an entrepreneur, in my opinion. Basically, came up with an idea and launched a business and hired (the people who know the technicalities) to materialize it!

Having said that, I am not hoping to convince those who never earned a BSCS or a similar degree. They are just too comfortable having it the easy way and calling themselves “programmers” or “system architects” and not knowing how to do simple binary addition or how to use a mod operator!

Oh, and by the way, I paid for every single class and certification I earned. I never applied for financial aid or any sort of assistance! I worked hard to pay my tuition–day and night and between semesters–and finished college in less than 4 years!

Anybody can “google” how to perform certain surgery. I bet you won’t let me operate on you, eh!

Simple binary addition

In reply to Psychos are everywhere…

I was doing that in 1975 when I was twelve years old in maths. Used it in computing in 77, so I’d have to say if that’s what the teach in a CS degree it’s abit further behind the times than I thought.
I can still do it, and octal and hexadecimal an good deal of it in my head which most kids can’t do with decimal.

I agree that googling a language statement does n’t make you a programmer, nor does reading it out of a book, off a drawing board or listening to it. Where you learn FOR is immaterial what when and how you use it defines your ability as a programmer.

Reply To: Fair Competition?

In reply to Fair Competition?

I’ve been programming since 1980. My expertise is scientific/technical/graphics, using Fortran, VB, and Windows API. I have degrees in Physics and Biomedical Engineering. I’ve applied for >40 programming jobs and had one (unsuccessful) interview. I think you’re talking nonsense.

Most of the problem is that tertiary training is so specialisd nowadays that the dummies who do the hiring can’t conceive of cross-training, or recognise quick learners. (I’ve seen ads for engineering positions that demand experience in a particular 3D CAD program — as if they aren’t all the same under the skin! It’s like advertising for a chauffeur with Ford experience, stipulating that GM drivers need not apply!) These recruiter bozos seem to think applicants need to be genetically engineered to fit the job description to the letter.

Get some professional advice on your resume writing and interview skills. Maybe you’re having crap luck, like me, or maybe you’re just not selling yourself very well.

addendum–based on some of the responses…

In reply to Fair Competition?

(This started as a comment on: http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-11181-0.html?forumID=6&threadID=190118&messageID=1962269
and I just decided to add it to my initial post!)

Psychos are everywhere…and we deal with them on a daily basis–on the street, in the office, on the train, and sometimes online–that’s just a fact of life. Having said that, can one say that we have ample experience in dealing with psychos, therefore, one ought to be able to land a job in the field, eh?!
We deal with medical issues throughout our lifetime, and we get to know and learn quite a bit about medicine, health, and etcetera. Can I open a clinic?!
I, for instance, know quite a lot about health and healthful diet and how to lead a healthful and energetic life style. Can I work as a dietitian?!!
I mean, pal, I can’t open a shop to repair freakin’ cars, even though, by necessity, most of us know a heck of a good deal about cars and car repair! I must be a *licensed* mechanic first, in order to be allowed to open the shop!! The city won’t let you work as an electrician (not even an electrical engineer) unless you have earned a license!

Just face it. It isn?t about snubbing those who never bothered to do things the right way and earn a well-rounded and professional education. They chose the easy path. Well, it is just that. They just can’t have certain IT positions.
Excluding exceptions, if you hire only those who have the “theory” and who took the long and arduous path to knowledge, maybe, just maybe, you will have better, efficient, robust and reliable systems, in addition to a professional work environment–let alone not having to deal with a single sentence that spans an entire 5-line paragraph!!

“Theory” is the terra firma upon which you can specialize and earn your certifications and formalize your experience. As many mentioned, in most cases, the ones with the “theory” are the more adapt and faster to learn and do things right!
Just so I don’t have to repeate this ad nauseam, I’m mainly excluding those folks who got into the field decades ago and before colleges opened computer-related departments. (Although, even those, could have tried to earn a technical degree!)
I had earned a certificate in programming in C/C++/UNIX before earning a BSCS. However, I decided that if I were to work in a field, I ought to know what I was doing and what I was talking about. Hence, the long path to a degree was my choice. If it were about just knowing how to program, I never needed the degree!
People “deal with computers on a daily basis” and think that qualified them to go for a job! Some one learned how to write a FOR loop and thought they became programmers!
No wonder, systems fail and drag!!
Yes, Bill Gates dropped out of college. Hey, exceptions make the rule nowadays? By the way, Bill Gates was more of an entrepreneur, in my opinion. Basically, came up with an idea and launched a business and hired (the people who know the technicalities) to materialize it!

Having said that, I am not hoping to convince those who never earned a BSCS or a similar degree. They are just too comfortable having it the easy way and calling themselves “programmers” or “system architects” and not knowing how to do simple binary addition or how to use a mod operator!

Oh, and by the way, I paid for every single class and certification I earned. I never applied for financial aid or any sort of assistance! I worked hard to pay my tuition–day and night and between semesters–and finished college in less than 4 years!

Anybody can “google” how to perform certain surgery. I bet you won’t let me operate on you, eh!

You do not ned a degree to know the theory

In reply to addendum–based on some of the responses…

It used to be that no one needed any qualifications to do an job. Then people complained about the fact things were done by people without any knowldge of what they were doing and people were getting hurt. So the govt brought in rules that before you could do any job where you might place someone’s welfare at risk you had to be properly trained and recognised as such by your peers.

Then other employment categories saw that this was a good way to limit people in the field and pressured the govt to require similar regulations for them. That is the original basis for qualifications, today many use qualifications to simplify their recognition of the peson’s level of training. Qualifications do not make them an expert and lack of qualifications does not mean they can not be an expert.

Theory is needed in some work and not required in other work. If I wanted someone to design a new cpu or circuit board I would get someone who has the reevant knowledge to do so, most of this is theory type knowledge. If I want someone to work out wh a computer keeps crashing I find someone with relevant knowledge and very little of the theory taught in a CS or BA would help them there.

I had been working with computers for over 20 years before I got any qualifications, even then I find that I have practical knowledge that extends beyond what they teach in the relevant courses. What I did before they developed the courses can be done by antyone else today if they want to earn that way.

Two of my favourite IT work experiences show how well the practicality is better than the theory.

1. A friend’s client’s computer keeps restarting for no reason. Checked the cmputer out in the workshop no problems. Checked the computer out in situ – can not find cause, two techs one TAFE trained one uni trained could not find the cause and could not ghive any suggestion for the cause.

I visited the site with my friend one day. Like everyone else we saw it reset itself. At this time neither of us had IT degrees just experience – we turned to each other and said ‘brown out’. Then investigated the cause. Client is on the edge of town, last house on the power line, off the town water supply and uses a dam. Everytime smene uses water the pump kicks in to refill the pump, causing a drop in power supply. One UPS problem go away. None of the theory that the qualified techs knew helped them to recognise a ‘brown out’ restart.

2. Large corporate network with many servers in it. Some email headers get corrupted. Many qualified experts looking into problem could find a cause. Some were had CS degrees some had mnany certs in the software being used. It was quickly proven that the network cabling and design was not at fault. These expets PROVED it was nto the mail servers so it had to be the high security gateway (where I worked). We quickly proved it was not the gateway by checking all email before and after it hit the gateway, all OK at these to points but some wre still being corrupted by the time they got to the recipient.

Using my general knowledge and investigation skills I got full details of the corporate mail servers in the network. Then made a statement as to the cause. The qualified experts with all the theory declared I was wrong that there was no way I could be right as theory said it was impossible.

Some months later a top specialist was imported from the USA and proved that the corruption of the emails ike that was theoretically impossible; either the whole message should be corrupted or not at all with that system. After being appraised of my deductions he said that was theoretically impossibe too but set about proving me wrong. After proving I was right he made the changes I recommended then wote it all up for the company as a known new fault.

All versions of that software could used UUCP or SMTP for mail handling, the early versions used UUCP natively and needed special settings to handle SMTP. Later versions used both natively. This network used vesions from both before and after this change and sometimes the older software was not recognising the message was SMTP and processing the ehaders as UUCP. Theory said it made no difference, not being weded to theory I challenged that and povd it wrong. Upgrade all to the same version of software problem go away.

Quals only mean you have been taught in a classoom what others have learnt outside a classroom.

Why the perception of exclusion!!?

In reply to You do not ned a degree to know the theory

Ernest, your points are very well taken! Nevertheless, why do you, and many others, imply that it is either or?!
You are comparing your decades (30+, I believe) of experience to the 5-year experience of a college graduate. How about comparing the 30+ years of experience to 30+years of experience AND a BSCS?!
I NEVER implied anywhere that one could just earn a degree and just bank on it and sit on their butt and wait for the steak served on the golden plate! Why do you seem to impliy that?
Another point, you might very well do better than that hypothetical peer with a 30+ and a degree. In my opinion, exceptions don’t make rules! Yes, someone might graduate from college, but be a ver poor performer. Again, why assume that that would make the rule?
On the other hand, it’s a fair assumption to say that someone with 30+ years of experience and a BSCS is, on average, and generally, and excluding exceptions, a better performer than one with only the 30+years.

I keep saying this and will say it ad infinitum: I was not particularly alluding to those who had been in the business for so many years; there properly were no computer departments in most colleges, then! Although, I thought that it would demonstrate a lot about the personality of the person, had they bothered to earn a relevant degree.
And, YES! College education teaches you a LOT!
Again, please, don’t exclude the possibility that there might (jussssst might) be some folks out there who have the loooooong track of experience AND a Technical 4-year Degree.

New graduates are the main problem

In reply to Why the perception of exclusion!!?

If you read my other posts in this thread you will see that I acknowledge that the theory is useful for some work and not others. I even recommended that people work on a degree whilst in the industry. The important and overiding things is – Can you do the job properly? and that should always be the main criteria, regardless of where you got your knowledge and skills.

The either or exclusion that you refer to relates to the new graduates because the uni (read college for the USA) courses are NOT practically based and do not include what is really needed at the coal face for the majority of the work in the industry. Yet the newly hatched grads frequently complain that they should get higher than basic entry level jobs in areas of the industry where they have no immediately usable skills or knowledge – they think they are better because they have a degree. When these course do update to the modern reality you will see a change of view on this.

The problem really seems to be that most of the uni courss prepare people to be computer system designers not technicians and repairers, yet the majority of the work is for technicians and repairers. For this work experience is usually better than theory, but much of this experience can be taught in the classroom, sadly the unis do not teach much of this. But the TAFE technical courses do thus the preference for tech trained over uni trained.

I have been working with computers since the early 1970’s and then went and got some recognised qualifications in the late 1990s – two diplomas and several certificates. The material I learnt in the courses did expand slightly on the practical and theoretical info I already had.

Given the need for a PC repairer and faced with a kid with 3 years field experience or a 4 year uni grad I would set up a test for them to fix some of the expected types of client problems. I would bet that most uni grads would take much longer to fix them or not fix them all. Simply because he did not get taught the knowledge and skills needed for that work. Conversely if the same two people applied for a job to dsign a new computer or network I would expect the uni grad to win hands down as that is the sort of theory he had been taught. Similarly if the work requires a lot of research the uni grad should have an advantage as that is a skill he should already have from being at uni.

Old story — To play with the toys, be a tech….

In reply to New graduates are the main problem

Alexander Graham Bell “invented” the telephone, but Tom Watson built them — Guess who had more fun!
One of the hardest lessons for Engineering (BS-whatever) graduates to learn has been to allow the technical staff to DO their job. Computing is just now maturing to the same level.

Moral: If you want to play with the toys, go the techie route; if you want to design the toys, go the BS__ route — YES, you can do BOTH!

Bothered ?

In reply to Why the perception of exclusion!!?

I always thought the reason I didn’t get a degree was because my da was as poor as a church mouse, then I became a dad myself and became poorer than a church mouse with kids.

Wrong again, Working my ass off to support my family was just an excuse for my laziness.
Bit of a surprise that, perhaps I should have left my family to support itself, got an education and then I’d know stuff like that.

There’s me think I was a standup hard working guy.

You learn something everyday…

Well I do anyway.

Poor choice of words indicating your massive academic bias there matey.

And I’ll disagree ad infinitum

In reply to Why the perception of exclusion!!?

With 30 + years in piratical work you have by then forgotten everything that you ever where taught in College as it is now all out of date.

For example 30 + years ago we where all using Valves in huge monster machines with punch cards. How often do you see a punch card today or a valve for that matter? Or even a 10 inch floppy? Well they where somewhere around the 10 inch mark maybe 10.5 inches but that was so long ago that it no longer matters does it?

Lets look at something much newer just how many 5.25 Floppies are in use today? When they came out they could hold all of 360 K and where considered as marvelous and cheap at a little over a $1.00 a piece or CDR’s at $25.00 each when they first came out you could bung all of 600 + MEG on a single disc and it was so cheap now you can buy the same thing for several cents and that is only in a 7 year time frame.

So if you walked away from IT for 7 years you would have an awful lot of catching up to do as everything that you learned back then is now obsolete unless of course you wanted to work with Vintage Computers in a Museum. 😀

And then of course with 30 + years experience plus whatever other qualifications you either started out with or have picked up along the way you’ll find yourself unemployable to most companies as you are over qualified for their needs which actually means that they’ll need to pay you more than they can get some pimply faced kid to do for virtually nothing in comparison to what they would have to pay you. :p

It used to be the harder you worked and the more you studied the better you where when it came to jobs but that no longer works as all it means to the different companies who employ you is how much money you will cost them. Most would prefer to have 3 or 4 people working for them doing substandard work rather than employing one person who could do the job properly as it makes them vulnerable to your whims and that is something that accountants [b]DO NOT LIKE![/b] 🙂

Col ]:)

Another Viewpoint…

In reply to Fair Competition?

I’ve read most of this thread and found everyone’s thoughts quite interesting. Both sides have made extremely good points and I can definitely see the advantages of having a degree and the advantages of not having one. The thing I can’t see is the disadvantages of either. True, experience is hard to beat in most cases, but it all depends on the person. I know a guy with 20+ years of “experience” in the IT field. Used to tell me stories all about the “old days”, but I tell you what, this guy had the drive and ambition of a brick. After ALL his experience, he was working at a help desk, where I was just starting off getting my feet wet in the industry.

But, this also holds true to a person who went to a 4 year school for a Bachelor’s degree. Trust me, I know some clowns who have degrees…scary. You guys all know one or two, where you say to yourself, “THAT guy has a Bachelor’s??” So, as with ANY profession, it always depends on the individual.

Now, as to the point of a BSCS not being worth anything. Of course that isn’t true. BUT, it does depend on the person, AND the company he is working at or trying to land a job with. Yes, there is favortism, nepotism, and choosing the “cheapest” candidate available. What I feel a Bachelors degree SHOULD show a company is the degree holder’s willingness and ability to learn a particular field for 4 or more years! This shows dedication and “stick-to-it-ness” and coupled with good grades, shows that the degree holder really put forth his best effort. So, a degree SHOULD tell an employer that this guy is serious about the business, and has learned valuable skills from other subjects required to get the degree, not just the core courses, that makes the candidate extremely well-rounded.

I am finishing up a Bachelors in IT with an emphasis in Computer Systems (whatever that really means) in April. I am doing it more for myself to show that I can accomplish something like getting a college degree, and I hope that it will help me in my career in IT. Although, I am not soley relying on that piece of paper to get me where I need to be. I know I need to gain the experience as well. Having the degree is just another thing that shows my current and any future employers just how valuable I am to their company.

Anyways, great discussion guys! Sorry for the small book I just wrote. 🙂

—
Rob Perkins

contradict yourself?!

In reply to Another Viewpoint…

“Now, as to the point of a BSCS not being worth anything. Of course that isn’t true.”

“Although, I am not soley relying on that piece of paper to get me where I need to be.”

On the one hand, you say that a BSCS is worth it. On the other hand, you allude to it as that “piece of paper!”

I think that I know what you mean, but the way you put it could be easily exploited by those of the “degrees are just a piece of paper” rhetoric!

That “piece” of paper was not just printed on the spot; it took years and years to EARN.

“Although, I am not soley relying on that piece of paper to get me where I need to be. I know I need to gain the experience as well. Having the degree is just another thing that shows my current and any future employers just how valuable I am to their company.”

Now, why is it not clear that YES, a degree alone is not everything, and that you don’t just earn it and then sit on your behind?

A degree IS the good and great start and firm foundation upon which you base your experience and hard work!!

Don’t try to make it sound as if a degree is just an optional track or an accessory. A doctor is required to earn a degree and some medical licenses to be allowd to operate. Having earned those licenses doesn’t make them the best doctors. You still need the degree, though!

Again and agaaaaain: You can’t even open a car repair shop, unless you are a licensed mechanic. Nevertheless, somehow, any average Joe is a “Programmer” “Network Admin” “Systems Architect” …
I, too, had MORE than enough knowledge and certification to call myself a programmer many years ago. However, I decided that it was the professional and right way of conducting business was to validate my knowledge with an accredited 4-year degree.

No…not contradicting myself…

In reply to contradict yourself?!

“Piece of paper”, as in how others WITHOUT degrees see some degrees. A degree IS worth a lot to yourself, not necessarily everybody else, as it SHOULD. That’s not something you can control. I know exactly what you are saying, I’m getting a degree myself…not just going the “Cert” route. I think by getting the degree I am not only bettering myself in my eyes, but the “piece of paper” SHOULD make me more valuable to an employer. I don’t think a degree justifies what you SHOULD know, or as you put it, “validate my knowledge”. It simply shows that you put forth the time and effort to accomplish a huge task.

Does getting a degree increase your knowledge of what is studied? Of course. Does NOT getting a degree DECREASE the amount of knowledge you have? Of course not. As we both know, a degree doesn’t “make” you who you are. But, I totally agree with you that some professions require a degree in that particular field, doctors, especially, but in that case I think it’s all about laws and liability, blah, blah, blah. In our field, which is relatively new to most others, I think we’re still developing and haven’t reached the point where degrees are required to work on say a Cisco switch. Maybe one day we will get there.

And don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to lessen the significance of having a degree, but I don’t think it is an absolute necessity to be successful in our industry.

Sorry but the Piece of Paper is nothing at all

In reply to contradict yourself?!

I have 3 PHD’s in various subjects all engineering related and 4 if you count the one I was awarded by Neil on the Erogenous Zones of Sheep. 😀

But I refuse to allow anyone to call me Doctor I’m more likely to beat the living daylight out of them if they do. I don’t even now know what initials I’m supposed to put after my name and unless it’s been for legal purposes I’ve never actually ever used them. Over all I have 6 [b]Pieces of Paper 3 Bachelors and 3 Post Grad[/b] and I don’t even know where they are nor do I care!

In the overall scheme of things they mean absolutely nothing at all and have never landed me a single job of any sort. What has got me every job that I’ve ever had is my reputation in the field that I don’t even have a CV prepared and I honestly don’t really know if I could even prepare one if my life depended upon it, mostly because I can no longer remember all the places or times that I’ve worked at different places all of which I’ve been Head Hunted from over the years until I finally got feed up with Corporate Politics and walked away from it all, and I’m still getting offers of jobs although finally I think that the message is getting through that [b]I’m Not Interested![/b]

The last time I actually used any initials after my name was for a court case which hasn’t come to life yet.

But this is something that I firmly believe that people who insist on using any titles or putting letters after their names are all up themselves as they do not cause anyone important to see you in a different light and those that are impressed are not worth impressing in the first place anyway.

So why bother?

Save the ink and get on with your life.

Col ]:)

absolutely fair, all other things being equal

In reply to Fair Competition?

If two people are virtually the same and one has a degree, odds are that additional knowledge will come in handy in one way or another.

It’s not critical the person have a degree, only the required experience or skills (however obtained). They can’t “venture into the market” and take jobs from people that have specialized skills. But give them credit if they picked up those skills on their own.

Why can a psyche major get a geek job, but not vice versa? Simple–PCs and technology are pervasive in virtually every area of society, including at home. The odds of the psychologist being a good techie are good, whereas the odds of a techie picking up a good bit of psychology are VERY slim. If they have a good technical background and excellent management skills, no reason they shouldn’t be your boss (especially if you have great technical skills but poor management potential).

Even if you have better management skills, an employer is better off leaving you technical and hiring a techie psychologist manager. If it were your company, would you promote the techie at the risk of not having anyone to put in the tech position (especially the psychologist)?

Shouldn’t there be a criterion for computer positions–just as there are ones for most other professions?!

Don’t confuse software/systems “engineering” with Civil/Electrical/Mechanical engineering. Two totally different things.

The BSCS person is going to be placed where they provide the most value, even if it’s for less pay. The degree just implies a general set of skills. If it were your company, would you pay the programmer with a MS more than the BS? Odds are they’re doing the same job, with the same efficiency. If there’s a position that requires the MS skill set, then they can compete for that.

My suggestion? Lose the bitterness 🙂 If you feel you’re not competitive, figure out what skills the other person has, acquire those skills, and market yourself for those jobs (in your company or another). That includes tailoring your resume for that skill set too, not leaving all that technical stuff in there and then becoming bewildered by the fact that the new employer tries to covey hole you into the same position you used to be in. Fight for the job you want, but own the responsibility for what you get–it’s not someone else’s fault, or their responsibility. If you can’t get the job you want, or the pay you want, the first step is accepting the blame for it, and the next step is doing something about it.

Best of luck! Hang in there.

The psych major example has gotten me wondering…

In reply to absolutely fair, all other things being equal

If psych majors can also be qualified to work in IT because they’re likely to have worked with computers (as I myself posted above), isn’t [b]everybody[/b] qualified to do the work of psychologists?

Psychologist YES

In reply to The psych major example has gotten me wondering…

They have very low skill sets and a low requirement to pass their courses. Even my now dead Dog got her Psychologists degree from a correspondence school. Well it was in her name anyway. :p

The only pieces of paper I’ve ever kept and always know where they are, are the Degree for the Dog and Her Birth Certificate from the Canine Control Council, they drive Psychologists nuts. 😀

Physicist no that’s a different ball game. 🙂

Col ]:)

Why not physicist?

In reply to Psychologist YES

Everybody has atoms, just like (almost) everybody has a brain.

But some pieces of paper

In reply to Why not physicist?

Allow that Brain to get Malpractice Insurance and without that piece of Paper the Brain can not get any Malpractice Insurance so they effectively can not work in that field. Well I suppose you could until your first mess up and then you would be broke.

That’s why one of my Bitches got a Psychologists Degree just to prove a point. 😀

Lets face it no matter how bad things get in IT no one is likely to die are they? Unfortunately the same thing can not be said in other fields like most of the Medical Professions. 🙁

Col ]:)

Malpractice Insurance? Physicists?

In reply to But some pieces of paper

Did you mean Physician, aka doctor? Stephen Hawking is the world’s foremost physicist. I don’t believe that physicists have any need for malpractice insurance.

Can you…

In reply to Fair Competition?

…open a car repair shop in you part of the world, without being a ***LICENSED*** mechanic?!!!

Well…

…it’s very convenient to say that IT should be open to all–especially, if you never earned the accreditation. Many like to call it “elitism” and other rhetorical nonsensical names, just to avoid facing the fact!
As if only those guys–and gals–are the ones who “worked” and “toiled” hard! Well, still; not a justification for you to define what it takes to call yourself a “system/software developer” / “Systems Architect” /Software Engineeeeeer” / titles dime a dozen…
I don’t intend to hurt anyone’s feelings, but will my feelings be hurt if a Doctor says to me that, despite my “toiling”, “hard work” and tremendous “knowledge” of medicine, that despite all that, I can’t work as or be called a Doc?!

Systems are failing and applications are dragging and crwaling and security is an oxymoron because average joe and jane are “system/software developer” / “Systems Architect” /Software Engineeeeeer”

Hey, by da way, can I open a car repair shop?

Nuff said, eh!

🙂

In the spirt of continued joshing

In reply to Can you…

globally recognised non vendor specific test to assess skill levels in varied IT disciplines, I’m in.
None of this four years in school crap, or spending $ks on swatting adverts rubbish.

Just test me, I’ve already passed a harder more demanding curriculum than they would dare set for a bit of paper.

On a less funny note. I’ve paid qualified mechanics who it turned out didn’t know one end of a spanner from the other.

I see where you are coming from…

In reply to In the spirt of continued joshing

…and I understand what you are saying,

BUT

That is not how it works!
Or is it?!
If it is, then IT seems to be the sole exception!

You know something; you might very well be more hands-on and more experienced than I am–for various reasons! For instance, say, I earned my degree 7 years ago and for certain reasons I did not get to focus my efforts on one IT track. It just doesn’t mean that a degree is irrelevant!
The only thing that it means is that *I* am not up-to-date, and *I* need to do some brush up. Once on the job, *I* will pick up in months what you picked up in decades!
By saying that, I, in NO way disparaging you or belittling your vast knowledge. It is just a fact that the sort of education that you receive in a 4-year college arms you with the basic and fundamental tools and knowledge that is needed to become a versatile and adaptable IT professional. Whether you are good at utilizing this knowledge or not, is not the fault of the university!

The really important thing that I keep trying to get through is that other professions exclude non-licensed wannabes from practicing, so why are we any different?! I bet I have much more knowledge and enthusiasm than many dietitians; by your token, why shouldn’t I call myself one?!I should also have the freedom and liberty to open a dietitian consultancy office or a car repair shop. However, they won’t let me!! Conversely, a dietitian or a mechanic, can freeeeeely roam my field and be a “system Architect”!!!!

Many like to call it “elitism” and other rhetorical nonsensical names, just to avoid facing the fact!
As if only those guys–and gals–are the ones who “worked” and “toiled” hard! Well, still; not a justification for you to define what it takes to call yourself a “system/software developer” / “Systems Architect” /Software Engineeeeeer” / titles dime a dozen…
I don’t intend to hurt anyone’s feelings, but will my feelings be hurt if a Doctor says to me that, despite my “toiling”, “hard work” and tremendous “knowledge” of medicine, that despite all that, I can’t work as or be called a Doc?!

Systems are failing and applications are dragging and crawling and security is an oxymoron because average Joe and Jane are “system/software developer” / “Systems Architect” /Software Engineeeeeer”

Hey, you need that proclaimed knowledge and expertise validated and fortified with formalized, comprehensive and well-rounded education, before you can object!

The fact is, you can write a porous, ineffective, sloppy, buggy, non-modular program, and it might work. In the eyes of a non-savvy person, you are a programmer; and you will also call yourself a programmer!
Another fact is that we made the commitment and large investment, yet you guys because you never made that investment, you come in and undercut us. The market offers meagerly $12 and $15 an hour, which I in no way will take?not even $20. I would and certainly would open a car repair shop or even sell hotdog?they make much more MUCH more! But, ?

Hey, by da way, can I open a car repair shop?

Actually, you’re free to do that.

In reply to I see where you are coming from…

“I bet I have much more knowledge and enthusiasm than many dietitians; by your token, why shouldn’t I call myself one?!I should also have the freedom and liberty to open a dietitian consultancy office …!! …!!!!”

Since you’re using so much punktuation, I’ve decided to ease some of your angst: anybody [b]can[/b] call themselves “dietitian” in the United States. All you have to do is convince your clients that you know enough to keep them coming back and recommending their acquaintances. The title that has to be earned according to legally mandated guidelines is “nutritionist”. Any fool with a mouth can call itself “dietitian”.

correction: you’re even freer than I said

In reply to Actually, you’re free to do that.

You can put “nutritionist” or “dietitian” on your door, business cards, billboard, or any other place that you decide to advertise. The title whose use is guided by law is “[b]Registered[/b] Dietitian”.

Here yes you could

In reply to I see where you are coming from…

And you would most likely know far more than the qualified Mechanics as well.

Do you know what a Kettering Ignition System is? Most of the mechanics over here don’t as they are not taught the very basics.

It appalled me when I asked a 4th year apprentice just after he had returned from his college course what he had covered which was ignition systems so I said something about knowing all about Kettering Ignition Systems to which he replied no I didn’t learn anything about those high end rare stuff that you are here about I only learned about points coil type ignition systems. What made it even worse was that it was only the old guys there that knew what the hell I was talking about.

So the mechanics don’t have a great deal of technical training and they are allowed to set up shop if they have enough money. :p

Col ]:)

addendum II

In reply to Fair Competition?

In commenting on:
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-11181-0.html?forumID=6&threadID=190118&messageID=1965643

I understand what you are saying, Tony,

BUT

That is not how it works!
Or is it?!
If it is, then IT seems to be the sole exception!

You know something; you might very well be more hands-on and more experienced than I am–for various reasons! For instance, say, I earned my degree 7 years ago and for certain reasons I did not get to focus my efforts on one IT track. It just doesn’t mean that a degree is irrelevant!
The only thing that it means is that *I* am not up-to-date, and *I* need to do some brush up. Once on the job, *I* will pick up in months what you picked up in decades!
By saying that, I, in NO way disparaging you or belittling your vast knowledge. It is just a fact that the sort of education that you receive in a 4-year college arms you with the basic and fundamental tools and knowledge that is needed to become a versatile and adaptable IT professional. Whether you are good at utilizing this knowledge or not, is not the fault of the university!

The really important thing that I keep trying to get through is that other professions exclude non-licensed wannabes from practicing, so why are we any different?! I bet I have much more knowledge and enthusiasm than many dietitians; by your token, why shouldn’t I call myself one?!I should also have the freedom and liberty to open a dietitian consultancy office or a car repair shop. However, they won’t let me!! Conversely, a dietitian or a mechanic, can freeeeeely roam my field and be a “system Architect”!!!!

Many like to call it “elitism” and other rhetorical nonsensical names, just to avoid facing the fact!
As if only those guys–and gals–are the ones who “worked” and “toiled” hard! Well, still; not a justification for you to define what it takes to call yourself a “system/software developer” / “Systems Architect” /Software Engineeeeeer” / titles dime a dozen…
I don’t intend to hurt anyone’s feelings, but will my feelings be hurt if a Doctor says to me that, despite my “toiling”, “hard work” and tremendous “knowledge” of medicine, that despite all that, I can’t work as or be called a Doc?!

Systems are failing and applications are dragging and crawling and security is an oxymoron because average Joe and Jane are “system/software developer” / “Systems Architect” /Software Engineeeeeer”

Hey, you need that proclaimed knowledge and expertise validated and fortified with formalized, comprehensive and well-rounded education, before you can object!

The fact is, you can write a porous, ineffective, sloppy, buggy, non-modular program, and it might work. In the eyes of a non-savvy person, you are a programmer; and you will also call yourself a programmer!
Another fact is that we made the commitment and large investment, yet you guys because you never made that investment, you come in and undercut us. The market offers meagerly $12 and $15 an hour, which I in no way will take?not even $20. I would and certainly would open a car repair shop or even sell hotdog?they make much more MUCH more! But, ?

Hey, by da way, can I open a car repair shop?

Edited & Reposted.

In reply to addendum II

🙂

Reply To: Fair Competition?

In reply to Edited & Reposted.

And, isn’t that what the “edit” button for; what happens when you post something and realize that you missed a point, or that more clarification was needed?!

Now, it’s becoming a bit childish, Docta 🙂

Actually

In reply to Reply To: Fair Competition?

It’s exactly what the edit button is for I reposted the entire thing where it was supposed to go not where it ended up.

Buy the way do you want me to get Gino and Luigi to pay you a visit? 😀

Col ]:)

Addendum III

In reply to Fair Competition?

I just noticed a very unintelligent (for the lack of a better description) comment made by a fellow who stated something to the effect that Bill Gates invented the IT field, and he is a college drop-out. Consequently, we should be appreciative of the non-academia fellas because they are the source of our career! This is just to paraphrase what was said!

Well, Bill Gates and many others are entrepreneures. That’s what made them the fortune!
Go and emulate him, and kudos to you, if you make it!
Your comparison is totally irrelevant.
Oh, and computers and computer existed well pre-gates!

and it’s certainly a very convenient thing to say
and you ain’t Bill Gates!

Thank you

In reply to Addendum III

Thank you, but some people just confuse their opinions with the facts……….
http://www.microsoft.com/billgates/bio.asp

Reply To: Fair Competition?

In reply to Thank you

I was just searching Microsoft’s website for available positions, and noticed that all of the ones that I looked at had a “BA/BS Computer Science/Engineering” in the requirement area!

I’m just wondering, why did “microsoft” do that?
Is Bill Gates aware of this discriminatory practice!?

Face it:)

Isn’t it ironic….

In reply to Reply To: Fair Competition?

that a corporation founded by a guy who NEVER FINISHED COLLEGE requires a COLLEGE DEGREE of his employees! ::laffs:: I love that stuff!

Actually Billy Boy

In reply to Reply To: Fair Competition?

Likes to grab kids fresh out of Uni, College or whatever and teach them M$ way of doing things.

They work long hours are poorly paid for their work and after about 5 years are thrown out with the trash when they are burnt out.

The Person in charge of Product Development at M$ sets unrealistic time frames and then keeps changing the content so M$ never ever meet the announced releases and it’s always blamed on the coders.

I’ll let you have two guesses who’s in charge of Product Development at M$. 😀

He didn’t finish any formal schooling and still has unrealistic ideals of what it’s possible to do with his [b]BASTARD CHILD WINDOWS.[/b] Do the initials BG mean anything to you? 🙂

Col ]:)

I should tell you something here

In reply to Fair Competition?

Firstly I don’t have any CS qualifications mainly because when I was studying there was no Computer Sciences so like a lot of others I did Electronic Engineering.

Oh by the way there where no PC’s at the time either just dirty great mainframes that we had to fight like hell to get a 15 minute user slot generally at 2.00 AM in the morning.

When I started working commercial IT as it’s called now I worked for a large US Based company making Mainframes and I was at first employed as a senior tech for that side of the business and eventually rose to State Service Manager so I effectively controlled the Service Department of the day and all the staff working under me had Electronic Engineering Degrees where as I had a PHD in Electronic Engineering, which to this day I insist only gave me the rights to go out into the big bad world and start learning my trade it didn’t give me any actual right to work in what is now know as IT.

My very first run in with one of the New Computer Science Graduates was a bitter pill to sallow as I was at that time moved into a punishment detail for not following company policy to the letter and putting my customers first. So I was sent to a small subsidiary who sold engine management systems to the racing car industry and in those days we all where working with 64K EPROMS that held the entire program and High End Z 80 CPU’s again if you can actually call a Z 80 a CPU.

Well the company that I worked for grabbed a couple of the top CS students fresh out of Uni here and Honestly didn’t know what to do with them as they at the time where just starting a PC line most went there but one ended up with me for “Training.”

The very first job that I gave him involved writing a subroutine to drive a very small part of the entire program and it needed rewriting and I got on with the more important stuff that was required. 2 Days latter he returned with this what should have been very small Sub Routine written in what was then called Basic and took all of 356K he totally ignored my instructions and did it his own way and was highly opinionated about the way things should be done even if it wouldn’t actually work on the hardware available. I then told him to rewrite it in Boolean and do it properly to which he refused and called me several names referring to my complete lack of education.

So I just gave him the entire specs required and told him to write the program in whatever he wanted to the way he wanted to write it and how he preferred to write it. His result took over 2 MEGS which at that time was impossible to actually fit into the hardware so I gave him a PROM burner and told him to make me several EPROMS to fit into the engine management systems that we sold. I then rang head office and insisted that he be transfered back to the area that I had come from and arranged the transfer.

But it didn’t end there when he couldn’t get it to fit on the available hardware he insisted on a complete redesign and because he wasn’t a hardware engineer he wanted someone else to redesign the existing hardware. Then the absolute worst thing happened he realized that he had to attend Race Meetings it was great during Work Hours but Weekend Work was out of the question so he requested an Immediate Transfer back to the Head Office where he was put to work on the PC side of things.

He was completely hopeless at what was required, Highly Opinionated and demanding on the proper way of doing things. Needless to say he went far with the PC’s and I’m glad that he never worked for me ever again! What’s worse he didn’t even offer an apology when he found out who I actually was and I’m extremely glad that I didn’t go back to the Mainframe side of the business as I would have taken every opportunity to kill the little SOB available to me and that would have been on numerous occasions.

[b]What you have to start off with is a piece of paper that only gives you the right to start learning, some of what you where taught might be useful and a lot of it will be useless but that Piece Of Paper in no way entitles you to any job or in any way implies that you are somehow better than others working in the same industry. If you want to setup your Own Business you can act as you please but honestly you will not last long if you carry on the way that you are in your original post where you seem to think that somehow you are owed a living in your preferred field and people should bow down and kiss your feet for agreeing to work in a certain place.[/b]

If you want respect you have to earn it by hard work and waving a piece of paper around which can be easily shredded isn’t the way to go about earning respect all it does is earn contempt from your co workers when you eventually get a job but with your attitude I don’t think that will be much of a problem as no decent IT corporation would employ you.

Everything IT related is a [b]Service[/b] so you need to work with people and treat them as equals so get that Bug out of your A R S E and get on with beginning to learn your trade. Remember MS isn’t the only player in town and with their current practices they are unlikely to remain Top Dog forever so you’ll need to start diversifying your knowledge base.

Incidentally you can apply for any job that you like but while you are unlikely to get it you are always welcome to try. I’ve found no Nero Surgeons working IT or Lawyers for that matter but the people currently there have got there by working hard and establishing a reputation for themselves and that is something that you fresh out of College can not hope to have.

I should add here that there was no attack upon your character intended I’m just making statements of [b]FACT[/b] in the above so start off by having an attitude adjustment and see what it is you are doing wrong at interviews. That will be of far more use to you than any other single thing.

Col

puzzle of the day!

In reply to I should tell you something here

“When I started working commercial IT as it’s called now I worked for a large US Based company making Mainframes and I was at first employed as a senior tech for that side of the business and eventually rose to State Service Manager so I effectively controlled the Service Department of the day and all the staff working under me had Electronic Engineering Degrees where as I had a PHD in Electronic Engineering, which to this day I insist only gave me the rights to go out into the big bad world and start learning my trade it didn’t give me any actual right to work in what is now know as IT.
”
Puzzle of the day:
__________________
Hey, there is actually a comma somewhere in the midst of this 7-line long sentence, quoted above!
Can you spot it?

After all, maybe yours WAS a piece of paper, Doc!

Hey, may I borrow one of your faces for a sec?
Thanks! Here you go ]:)

Well I’m a REAL TECH

In reply to puzzle of the day!

Being able to write was not a requirement when I started I had a secretary for that. :p

The fact that I had to correct most of her work was immaterial though and here I’m defiantly not expected to bother with minor things like grammar.

But more importantly did you get the message at the end?

You need to adjust your ideals and find out what it is you are doing wrong at interviews or you’ll never get to see someone like me who is likely to employ you. :p

Col ]:)

down-to-earth

In reply to Well I’m a REAL TECH

gotta give ya credit for that, eh:)

Well, listen! You are focusing on the wrong thing. It certainly is not my “ideals” or what I am “doing wrong at interviews “…
you don’t know me nor do you know my personality. Just because I objected to something that I believed was a wrong and unfair practice doesn’t make me arrogant nor snotty! And just to save you the time, I don’t even care the slightest, if all you got out of my discussion was the perception that I was an arrogant person! 😀

As I mentioned on many posts, I have the degree, and TONS of prestigious certifications that takes the average person many years to earn. Is it wrong to ask that IT should be treated like other professions are, so we could ensure some standards and also to protect our market?
IT field is a very challenging and intense. Why would you wanna offer your services to a company that will pay you peanuts, while they will earn millions–if not billions! Nowadays, all businesses are highly dependant on IT. Well, if it is so important to their business, why would we accept less than what WE demand!? They make millions and billions, and pay you, the guy who toils and exerts himself, pennies? Our field is not easy stuff–requires plenty of knowledge, hardwork, and YES, INTELLIGENCE! Why should they get that for $20 or even $40 an hour?! Yes, you might say, you have to like the field, in order to work in it! And YES, I will say! I LOVE the field, but will do for myself and as a hobby in a lab or at home but not give it to the employer for free because, well “I LOVE IT!”
And what drove our market value so dirt-cheap, you might ask! The answer goes back to the start of this thread!
We have been FLOODED by the average Joe and Jane who call themselves “SYSTME PROGRAMMER” etc. and are willing to work for $12 or $20 an hour!

Hey, and what’s up with that “Luigi Gino” Dude? :p

The problem currently is with all the Cowboys

In reply to down-to-earth

In the field. And this isn’t just the tech side it starts at the sales side where various companies will sell rubbish for far more than it is actually worth to unsuspecting buyers and then sell them a [b]Service Contract[/b] that isn’t worth the paper that it’s printed on.

At this stage the customer gets the impression that everyone in IT is [b]Out to Rip Them OFF![/b] So things get very hard to work through particularly when the existing so called [b]Service Contract[/b] is still in place but the companies can not get anyone out to fix their problems. This is [b]Small to Medium Business that has these problems![/b]

The big end of town is driven by purely bottom lines so why should they pay you what they consider an exorbitant amount of money when they can get someone else for peanuts? That’s how Accountants think it doesn’t matter if the work gets done but that they appear to be doing the work and complying with any revel ant Statutory Requirements. It’s for that very reason that an entire section of the User Market has just disappeared literally overnight with the advent of 95.

Before that time the users had to know how to use a program and where quite good at it but then M$ came out with Windows 95 and everything went to [b]Hell in a Hand basket![/b] what where once considered as mandatory requirements disappeared and what was once one of the most basic things is now relegated to the realms of the [b]Power User.[/b]

What makes it even better is that none of the higher functions of application usage is taught any longer and some little Macro Writer is considered as a [b]Programmer![/b]

I didn’t do it but you can certainly thank M$ for the current state of affairs in the IT community they push out MSCE certs by the bucket load making out that this is something important when really it doesn’t even qualify as toilet paper and because there are so many of these M$ Certified people around they are a [b]Dime a Dozen.[/b]

If you don’t like it [b]JOIN THE CLUB[/b] but stop complaining about the way that things are and either do something about it or shut up. You are not going to change the mind’s of Small Business who have been robbed as much as possible to pay $100.00 per hour or more to fix the problems that they shouldn’t have on the second rate junk that they have been sold by so called [b]EXPERTS[/b] and you sure as Hell are not going to alter one single accountants idea of perfection by insisting that his or her 200 low paid monkeys are actually costing them money by doing second rate work. It just ain’t going to happen in your lifetime anyway. After all they already have a junk OS that is the B A S T A R D default which falls over at the drop of a hat called Windows which everyone believes that they just have to have to get any work done with their PC’s.

As for Luigi & Gino you did refer to me in one of the above posts as “Doc.” :p

Col ]:)

Pots and kettles

In reply to puzzle of the day!

To Cheerstork –

It might be better for you not to criticize others’ grammer, my dear, when you still have much to learn about it yourself. If you were to study the matter, I think you’d see that one of your more prominent problems has to do with syntax and agreement.

But, perhaps this is what one learns from degree programs these days: to launch a personal attack when unable to debate on merit. That’s not to say an idea is unassailable; only that one is insufficiently skilled or knowledgeable to assail it.

Sadly, from your other postings, we know that your demeanor cannot be blamed on or excused by extreme youth or inexperience. Such a disappointment.

2 PM in the morning

In reply to I should tell you something here

“Oh by the way there where no PC’s at the time either just dirty great mainframes that we had to fight like hell to get a 15 minute user slot generally at 2.00 [b]AM[/b] in the [b]morning[/b].”

HIV virus

PCV valve

You know what I mean, HAL!

LOL

What are those things?

In reply to 2 PM in the morning

😀

The HIV [b]Heavily Into Valves[/b] bit I know about but where the Virus fits in is way beyond me. :p

What’s a PCV Valve though some thing for the Nitrogen Cooling or Halon Fire Suppression? 🙂

Col ]:)

OK, I got it!

In reply to Fair Competition?

So, all the self-proclaimed “Software Developers” “Network Design Architecutre Specialists” and etc, all of them say that a degree is not necessary.
I am fine with that.
Now, I just wish if that were applicable to all other professions. I wish if we could hop around professions, as long as we have the passion and the enthusiasm. There should be no “license” “certification” or whatever barriers, then!
Only IT is such!

Infinite Loop–Addendum IV

In reply to Fair Competition?

while(you still did not get the point and keep morphing your same feeble argument) {

Read my posts again, for they contain the ultimate answers to your hopeless arguments;
// This code instructs faulty processors to
//do the right thing.
//For instance, one processor liked to
//point out that it was ?nutritionist?
//NOT ?Dietitian? that required a license!
//Well, that processor really keeps
//missing the point: It?s not the
//title! It?s the fact that there are many,
//if not all, professions that require
//a license to practice. OK, so be
// it a ?Nutritionist!? I mean, come oooon dude!
// 🙂

};

return(?I?m done with this thread, since I have said it all and see nothing but hopelessly morphing replies?later gator!?)

My answers to ALL your questions

In reply to Fair Competition?

[i]You asked, “Is it fair for a person who has no degrees in computer science to compete with one who has it for the same job?”[/i]

Of course it’s fair.

[i]You asked, “Is it fair, when there are those who persevered and toiled to earn a degree in CS, only to find that many of the CS positions are held by individuals who just ventured into the market because they couldn’t find jobs in their own professions or just because they were seeking better income?”[/i]

Same question, same answer.

[i]You said, “I would think it’s fair, if it worked both ways.”[/i]

It does work both ways.

[i]You asked, “Can you, as a holder of BSCS, apply for a psychology-related position?”[/i]

Well, you could apply, but you may not get the job.

[i]You asked, “If not, then why was it OK for a person who majored in psychology to compete with you for a computer job–if not become your boss?”[/i]

Because treating a person for psychological afflictions is very different that treating a computer for its afflictions. I’ve never heard of a brain being reformatted and reloaded with software. (Although I’d like to do it with some people!)

[i]You said, “Please, exclude exceptions, i.e. don’t just focus in your reply on the cases in which the guy with no BSCS is doing a better job than you. I’m talking about the situation where you are just as good (if not much better, which is often the case.)”[/i]

If what you provide at one cost is less valuable to an employer than what your competitor can provide at his cost, then it doesn’t matter if you are “as good or better”. A Corvette might be a “better” vehicle in your mind, but if an Impala can adequately provide a service, but at a much lower price, then on balance, most people (employers) try to measure the overall value.

[i]You asked, “Shouldn’t there be a criterion for computer positions–just as there are ones for most other professions?”[/i]

Not necessarily.

[i]You asked, “Can I, with no degree in Engineering, go and compete for a job against an engineer with a bachelor’s degree in Civil Engineering?”[/i]

Absolutely you can. And you might be surprised at how many such people are in that particular field. Granted, they may not advance as far and/or qualify for certifications and licenses, but they are indeed there, in big numbers, I might add, contributing a great deal. Moreover, some civil “designers” make a great deal more than civil “engineers”. It depends on the quality of their work and the profit they can generate for the firm.

[i]You asked, “Well, why does it seem that anyone on earth with just 3 or 4 months of study of some certification can come and compete for the same job with someone who has spent at least 4 years of academic education for a Bachelor’s degree and experience in computer science?[/i]

The same answer – value and profitability.

[i]You said, “In some instances, they might be working in the cubicle next yours and making MORE money than you do–let alone having your boss as someone who holds a degree in some arts or physical education; or no 4-year degree at all!!![/i]

Same answer as the civil engineer making less than a civil designer. If the designer is better and more profitable, he SHOULD make more money. Degrees do not automatically equal more value to a company.

[i]You said, “This renders a Bachelor’s in Computer Science truly worthless!!![/i]

Well, you can define “worthless” however you want. But there are a lot of non-degreed professions that pay more than degreed professions.

[i]You said and asked, “Often times, it’s not really that the guy–or gal–in the cubicle next to you is doing a better job than you are that earns them the extra money or authority. How about favoritism, attraction, other preferences that are irrelevant to the job?!”[/i]

I’ll just consider that an emotional rant. We’re beginning to repeat ourselves. Same questions, same answers.

[i]You said, “If a degree in CS were a benchmark, then at least, you would be competing against peers in the profession.”[/i]

But it’s obviously NOT a benchmark. Play the IF game all you want. A look at reality, however, will get you further.

[i]You said, “Or maybe we should do away with degrees altogether, and one could go and apply for any sort of job as long as you demonstrate the willingness to do it and the enthusiasm to learn![/i]

Now you are beginning to understand.

[i]You said, “But then again, I should be allowed to open a car repair shop, without having to become a licensed mechanic; I should be able to be an electrician without needing a license to practice,… how about a doc?![/i]

Not all professions are created equally. I wouldn’t want a non-degreed person who learned medicine in his garage to perform brain surgery on me, but if he can fix my computer cheaper than you, he’ll get the job.

Provide more of a service, more value, and help the company reap more of a profit to the company than the guy competing for the job, and you’ll get it every time (well, most times), regardless of whether or not you have a degree.

Where do you get the time?????

In reply to My answers to ALL your questions

Where do you get the time to post such lengthy dissertations as yours? Man, I really hope you aren’t on my Project plans. If you are that committed to our profession to the point that you are writing these things on your own time I’m dog-gone pround of you and would love to hire you.

If you are busily tapping away on your keyboard faking like you are being productive you should thank whomever you feel is the Almighty Creator for the protection of not working for me or on any of my projects…

Where do you get the nerve…?

In reply to Where do you get the time?????

Where do you get the nerve to criticize the work ethic of somebody whose paycheck you don’t sign?

Did you happen to notice?…

In reply to Where do you get the nerve…?

Did you happen to notice the last sentence that said I’d love to hire the person if they had this much interest in IT to be so expressive on their own time.

I was asking, not accusing.

Ever hear of Personal Time

In reply to Where do you get the time?????

This is too much – I’ve worked the 24/7 as some might see their positions, but I decided that I need to have my time so it unless the job demands more than the normal 8 hrs. Then the rest of the time is mine, to read such treads as this, and to formulate my replies and comments. If your working 24/7 then that is great for you, but does it make the salary any larger? Does it make your Family any happier? Maybe you need to get a life. Personally, I made choices and happier because of them. Have a good evening!

Midnight Rambler

In reply to Ever hear of Personal Time

Hey Night owl, I think your reply was great. I’m up all hours of the night on the computer myself. It’s the best time to develop my program solutions. Quiet, peaceful, undisturbed etc. It is nice to know that there are people like you that will make the effort to formulate a synopsis, and put a complex issue in some perspective.
Thanks again, and warm regards.

A BS is not enough

In reply to Fair Competition?

Many of the posts bring out that a BS is obsolete or less valuable than work experience. The issue that comes up with strictly learning on the job is that the person’s tool box of tricks is limited. Sure they can write another system like the ones they have worked on. But ask them to develop something that requires complex data structures or statistics. Unless they do alot of reading and studying beyond the latest C++ book they will be handicaped.

At some point a developer needs to learn hard core computer science.

liguistics…

In reply to A BS is not enough

Why? I mean, I can’t have a degree in english studies and buy a C++ for dummies and learn how to write a few loops and a couple of functions along with some cin cout and then visit the print shop and order cards with “Systems/Applications/Software Developer/Engineer/Architect”??
I mean, English studies and c++…all are languages…

Degree <> Guaranteed Job

In reply to Fair Competition?

If your degree plus your ability doesn’t separate you in the minds of those hiring, then why did you get one? I’ve seen plenty of jobs on Monster that require a degree. I doubt they ignore that criteria when hiring time comes.

The IT industry is an infant compared to the other fields you mentioned. When CS is as old as the engineering profession, degree plus certification will be required.

I work in the Investment industry where licensing is required. Guess what? Many licensed investment advisors suck.

There is a difference

In reply to Fair Competition?

You must understand the difference between Computer Science and IT/MIS.

Computer Science is about understanding how to use computers to solve problems. In this way, it is very much like mathematics. Most colleges aren’t going to teach you some really cool things in a particular language. Instead they are going to teach you concepts such loops, arrays, data structures, etc. All things common to most programming languages. They will also add in some networking courses, mostly in terms of how to program applications that work across the network. Add in some mathematic courses, and some electives, and you have the basic Computer Science program. It is expected that you will fill in the details later, using the knowledge that you gained while earning your degree.

IT/MIS on the other hand, usually concentrates on very specific things, such as programs and programming languages. You might learn to do a loop in VB.net but you won’t ever be taught that loops are pretty much the same across all programming languages. You will be taught “vo-tech” skills. True, when you graduate, you might impress a few people because you know exactly how to extract data out of MS-SQL, because you took the “Extracting Data from MS-SQL” course. But what happens when they want to switch to Oracle or MySQL? You and the Computer Science degree person will have to both go look it up, but the Computer Science will probably figure it out faster.

And for the people without a degree, sure you can probably struggle along for a while and claw your way up to a respectable position. But I personally have always found people without degrees to have a tendency to over-inflate their accomplishments. You will never hear a non-degree holder say “I don’t know that.” Non-degree holders tend not to have done half as much as degree holders, yet they will say that they have.

[Author]

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