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  • #2118653

    Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs


    by jmottl ·

    The Department of Defense is proposing a complete hlt to immigrant visas for those working in the U.S. technology field, citing national security issues.
    The issue of immigrant labor, and the longtime H1-B visa program, is a hot topic and we want your opinion of what the DOD’s plan means for you as a tech leader, your enterprise, and even your professional career path.

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    • #3437462

      I don’t think DOD can do that.

      by road-dog ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      As I understand it, H1-B is administered by Immigration, not DOD.

      The Pentagon has many H1-B workers involved in sensitive programs and these individuals will be transferred to nonsensitive positions or released.

      I don’t believe that H1-B is being affected by this overall.

      I suspect that it would be a good idea to scale back H1-B visas until the economy has completed its recovery. Employers are taking advantage of loopholes in order to use H1-B labor in spite of Americans being out of work.

      I think that Employers should have to post intent to hire H1-B labor in the employment section of the newspaper closest to the location of the job, giving locals the first opportunity to apply.

      • #3463301

        H1-B DOD workers

        by theseacher ·

        In reply to I don’t think DOD can do that.

        Road-Dog mentioned that many H1-B worker work for DOD in sensitive positions.

        What is the definition of sensitive?

        Non-citizens are not granted U.S. security clearances except in the very rarest of circumstances or if they have high level political connections like in the Clinton administration.

        I was on a contract assignment in Rockford, IL at a company that did have some military contracts and the non-citizen workers were told to stay out of the areas where the military work was done.

        However the non-citizen workers were not monitored and they wandered everywhere. If you mentioned it to management you were then on the short list for cut-backs. I did not say anything about it but those that did were soon gone. Which said tome shut up because nothing will be done about the real problem.

        Management pretended as if they had a monitored program, ie, an American had to be in the area whenever the non-citizens were working. What a farce. The non-citizen workers would disappear for hours on end and no one ever knew where they were.

        When companies that have DOD contracts employee non-citizen workers the security policies are just paper policies.

    • #3437452

      Possible Americans First Mods to H1-B

      by road-dog ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      If we can put tariffs on foreign steel to protect american steel companies, why not a tariff on H1-B labor to make american labor more competitive with “the cheaper foreign products”.

      The federal government is incurring costs to administer these visas and additional security measures, why not have the companies taking advantage of the program pick up the tab? Lest I be labeled a liberal, I identify this not as an additional mandatory corporate tax, simply a protection measure for another facet of the US economy.

      • #3437440

        Where did you read this ?

        by meeramar ·

        In reply to Possible Americans First Mods to H1-B

        Could you post the link?

        • #3437344


          by road-dog ·

          In reply to Where did you read this ?

          The DOD reference is pasted at the bottom of the post.

          As to the H1-B tariff, I just thought it might be a good idea, causing companies to place residents in positions before going H1-B. The cost savings are taken away.

        • #3651676

          Article link

          by d. ·

          In reply to Where did you read this ?

        • #3651656

          Another link

          by d. ·

          In reply to Article link

        • #3649927

          Story link, another question

          by jmottl ·

          In reply to Article link

          Here’s the link the story I was referring to, and I apologize for not including it in my initial post (the hyphen is part of the ur).

          There was a great segment on 60 minutes last night about the INS, and while they didn’t delve into particular visa problems, one can only assume that if the INS isn’t handling every day visa issues and keeping track of visa expirations, it’s likely true they’re not tracking the over 100,000 they approved last year I believe just for the H1B.

          I’m curious to find out that if all the tech visas were pulled, what do you think the impact would be on technology companies and corporate IT houses…
          Judy Mottl
          CIO Community Editor

        • #3649843

          That All Depends..

          by road-dog ·

          In reply to Story link, another question

          on the level of a conpany’s dependence on H1-B labor. If your company phone directory looks like the Calcutta white pages, you’ve got problems. Many companies will be scouring for replacements.

          I suspect that most of those who’s visas are revoked will not proceed in an orderly fashion to the nearest airport and buy a ticket home. They will find alternate employment and INS will fail to find them.

          Suffice it to say, the INS should not be approving visas if they don’t have the time to do proper security procedures. That has never made any sense to me. If there is a backlog of security checks, then visas should be refused, not approved. Your tax dollars at work..

        • #3650501

          a backlog of security

          by rrgilmore_2001 ·

          In reply to That All Depends..

          Well here we go, part of me is in disgust and other part is offended. I cannot believe that the us DOD is not doing their job! 100,000
          Last year into the us. Ok lets see am I working with a cold blooded killer, a terrorist or did he come here to get away from that sh*t hole?
          I must be stupid; I actually thought our government was doing their job. Up until SEP 11th 2001.
          H-B1 I have never pointed my finger and said bla bla bla bla.
          I just thought ok he \ she must be better than me so he \ she got the job.
          I never thought he \ she got the job because they can pay him \ her less, he / she is cheaper.
          Now I am starting to think this would be a good thing, I know this action does not seem fair; life is not fair by fare.

        • #3430458

          Pull the H-1B visas

          by schwagerjt ·

          In reply to Story link, another question

          If all the tech visas were pulled, the impact on technology companies and corporate IT houses would be felt most by those firms which gauge their success in terms of short-term profit, whilst ignoring the long-term effects of their hiring practices on the health of the economy.

          H-1B visa holders work for low wages because what they make here is a kings salary compared to what they would get back home. While I sympathize with their plight, it is not our government’s job to ensure that all foreigners have a right to come here and earn more money.

          When the government first announced the crackdown on H-1B visa holders (which really wasn’t much of a crackdown, but rather stricter enforcement of rules already in existence), the announcement was met by fierce resistance form Iranian and other H-1B visa holders who considered it their “right” to work in the U.S. Do we have any rights in their countries? So why should their whining upset us?

          If we were to cancel H1-B visas, thegovernment would be able to eliminate the administrative costs of managing the H1-B visa program. Fewer federal workers would lose their jobs than tech sector workers, who lost their jobs due to the current economic slump (which incidentally was exacerbated by a few boxcutter wielding H1-B visa holders!)

          The benefit would also be felt by a proportionately greater number of American citizens in the tech sector, who would be employed (paying taxes), rather than on unemployment.

          Bottom line: The government needs to reconsider its policy of making it easy for corporations to give away American jobs. We can’t go around policing the whole world and neglecting our own problems here at home.

          Jeff Schwager

        • #3430532

          You have no idea of reality

          by friendly_alien_spacewalker ·

          In reply to Pull the H-1B visas

          Fact is those box cutters were not h1bs … they were on student visas.

          Fact is majority of h1b’s are from India and India has been in this fight against islamic millitants for a much longer period than you have come to know about them.

          Fact is in this global economy you cannot stay isolated and it is all demand and supply.

          Fact is if you still do not want to see reason and just hate then you are better off without being given any responsibility.

        • #3649594

          Great Points

          by wilising ·

          In reply to Pull the H-1B visas

          I have to agree with you 100 percent Jeff. One point I would like to add.

          During the Y2K effort there was a great need to pull resources from where ever they could be gotten. Many of those additional resources where H1B visa holders. I thought those were temporary visas? Many of the holders I used to work with are still here working. How long is Tempory?

        • #3430105


          by dghaus ·

          In reply to Great Points

          You’re lucky you don’t live in Canada, a temporary visa means bring your whole family and stay forever. Our immigration laws are an embarrassment compared to yours. Having said that, both of our countries were built on immigration. Its just that ourlaws need to be managed better against abuse.

        • #3399861

          Right ON

          by jklein ·

          In reply to Pull the H-1B visas

          The H1-B was just meant to give big corporations a break at the American workers expense. Not only were these foriegn people exploited as cheap labor and not paid their value, but in may cases the H1-B visas were used as tax dodges to avoid payroll taxes.

          The IT worked got burned twice. Once on the job, then having to pick up the tax burden of corporate tax cheats!

        • #3430538

          Misfocused security issues

          by friendly_alien_spacewalker ·

          In reply to Article link

          Indians , Chinese (majority of h1b visa holders) were not on that attack..they if you remember are allies of US in the fight against terrorism. If security is the focus here then think of how to deal with the arabs and the islamic millitants. If youjob security is the issue then we have moved far away from the initial reason the article was posted.

        • #3430536

          Far from the truth

          by friendly_alien_spacewalker ·

          In reply to Article link

          Indians , Chinese (majority of h1b visa holders) were not on that attack..they if you remember are allies of US in the fight against terrorism. If security is the focus here then think of how to deal with the arabs and the islamic millitants. If youjob security is the issue then we have moved far away from the initial reason the article was posted.

          Moreover the pie chart that accompanied the original article didn’t show a large number of h1b’s. If the stats are correct I dont think joblessness is a effect of h1b’s incoming.

        • #3649549

          Pie chart source and an ideal survey

          by generalist ·

          In reply to Far from the truth

          The source of the data for the pie chart is a typical TechRepublic member survey whose accuracy is suspect. It reflects those people who noticed the survey and responded to it. I wouldn’t trust it to reflect reality because of the survey method used.

          What I would prefer to see is a scientific survey of businesses of all sizes reporting on how many people they have in IT and how many of those people are H1Bs. It would also be nice to break out the skill sets needed for the jobs and the amount of money paid for those skill sets.

          What I think I might see is that smaller businesses may lack H1Bs while larger ones have a higher than usual percentage. This would reflect a balance of extra H1B costs versus getting the people needed to fill the jobs.

          Hopefully we would also see that H1Bs are paid a fair market value for their services. This would show that they are not taking jobs from Americans.

          Has anyone done such a survey? The results would be interesting to see…

        • #3430535

          Demand and supply

          by friendly_alien_spacewalker ·

          In reply to Article link

          I bet the number of new h1b applications this year will be lower but when things turn good again and the demand increases then the applications would increase.

          It is demand and supply . Saner people wouldnot recommend witch hunting existing h1b’s. Remember they have a life too and are human beings.

      • #3399863

        Corporate Tax Dodge

        by jklein ·

        In reply to Possible Americans First Mods to H1-B

        The whole reason for big business to lobby hard for the H1-B was to give themselves a tax break.

        Imagine importing an alien labor force that work for less then your domestic labor. Then imagine that that labor force is made up of contractors not employees. Image how much you would save in payroll and SS taxes. Get the drift.

        Convince Congress there is a high tech labor shortage and cover your IT needs with lower costing labor tax free. You would think the boys at Enron came up with this one.

        • #3401632

          Know the facts first

          by wayniac ·

          In reply to Corporate Tax Dodge

          Corporate Tax Dodge ?

          I am an H1B visa holder, not Chinese or Indian but UK born with Australian residency. I came here because my employer in the US could not find a suitable person with my skills.

          Having spent 18 months here, I am singularly unimpressed with the quality of the work done here. The H1B holders I have come into contact with are hard-working, extremely well qualified. To get past the stringent H1B entry requirements, an independent skills assessment is performed by a university. Usually the applicant needs minimum degree qualification plus experience. I have these qualifications plus 27 years IT experience. I have made presentations at major US technical conferences and published papers.

          I pay social security taxes, all State and Federal taxes and a 401K contribution (investing in US companies).

          I am not sure where some of these posters get their information, it is symptomatic of the xenophobic isolationist mindset.

          Just consider how many American citizens are workers in foreign countries and their share os the wealth of these nations. Americans generally do not have a dual-tax treaty arrangement with their host country, so their salary package is generally inflated in order to allow them to make exhorbitant sums to cover paying high taxes in the US and generally not much in the other country. I experienced this in Indonesia where I worked as an Australian expat. Australians are hard-working achievers and generally work for less in 3rd world countries than Americans.

          As an aside, since I cannot make the required 40 Social Security credits as a 3-6 year H1B holder, can I have my contributions back? Otherwise it would appear that I am supporting the US in my old age and not vice-versa.

      • #3400602

        Labor travel should be unrestricted.

        by rahul global ·

        In reply to Possible Americans First Mods to H1-B

        In the 21st century when we are talking about boundry less globe why then restriction on human movement.

        If we can talk about less restrictions on business movements from one part of world to another part why shouldn’t people be allowed to move freely, i dream of a place wherein people can move freely without needing visas for work, americans can world world wide and rest of world can work in america.

        is this not a good idea ??

        • #3402066

          Bad Apples Spoil It for Everyone

          by jklein ·

          In reply to Labor travel should be unrestricted.

          Unfortunately 19 evil young men got on 4 aircraft and killed your argument.

          Americans can’t work everywhere they want on a whim. They must obey the immigration and work laws of the host country just like anyone else.

        • #3401819

          few people deciding future for all

          by rahul global ·

          In reply to Bad Apples Spoil It for Everyone

          what happened on 9/11 is one of the biggest crimes against humanity and they are punished for daring to do that, isn’t it right…

          now the basic question is are we going to be influenced by bunch of people determined to make life hell for all. ifwe do so indeed they have succeeded in their mission, because they belong to closed society and try to impose their rules on others and they want to make world a place where people don’t have freedom to move, do work, be friends to other.

          are we not penalising a whole lot for the acts of few individuals who are as much enemy of all us non americans as they are for americans.

          we need to have more stringent checks for safeguard but that doesn’t mean close your doors to whole world, remember they are out to do the same and we are helping them to achieve it………

    • #3437428

      Good protection measure US, not IT

      by nonamecharlie ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      It’s a good idea for the US. If INS runs H1-B visa program like it does the tourist and student visas…they need to plug that hole quick. INS is a study in gross ineptitude, waste, fraud, and abuse.

      For the benefit of IT, I am 50/50. On theone hand, the more talent brought into the country the better. On the other, it is fair to brain drain the talent of developing economies? Better to invest overseas for the betterment of those nations.

      Anyway, I don’t see the need for companies to employ H1-B visa holders. The hysteria surrounding the “shortage of skilled IT workers” is nonsense. Why are headhunters flooded with 3-4 hundreds resumes per post?

      • #3651098

        only in America

        by billgalaviz ·

        In reply to Good protection measure US, not IT

        only in America would you have foriegner’s, working around classified data and such to save a buck or two, this attitude needs to stop

    • #3436617

      Career is ?

      by rrv ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      Hi. Today i have to feed me and my family. Being Indian, i have 1 year in India and 3 years in Dubal-Middle East experience. The 3 years contract job in Dubai is over now. Total 4 years of Post Qualification[MCA] experience is a question. If US is closing down to IT jobs all others are closing down. I’m no way related to religion in either middle east or US. Where will i find a job? In India competition in IT job is at the maximum and at last best candiadates are not recruited just because theywould not stay in job for long. Time will answer me???

      • #3436531


        by road-dog ·

        In reply to Career is ?

        In the US, this is the case also. Before the dotcom implosion, thousands bought into the hype that IT was the “in demand” skillset of the 21st century. This was true at the time. When the HUGE market correction occurred, (c’mon @ $200/share, without even a single quarter in the black?)

        Thousands of IT jobs went away after the implosion, and customers waited (and still are) for things to stabilize before investing again. Hence 3 IT persons per opening.

        I’m not even going to pretend that I understand The labor market in India, but I suspect that you are the victim of your own success. So many have chosen IT as a vocation and the education system was up to the challenge. The tight market and the large numbers of highly skilled Indians seeking employment is a “crown of thorns”.

        Things are tough all over, I think that we are all waiting for an overdue turn-around.

    • #3651909


      by packratt ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      Aside from the economic arguments that could be made there is a reason that the H1B process should be looked with more scrutiny. I remember a year or so ago that a study was made by some embassy officials in India of all the accepted H1B requests from just one province. They found that of the applicantions, over 40% did not have verifiable references or eductional records and 33% were determined to be outright fraudulent.

      This alone should be worrisome when not too long ago the INS pushed through the accelerated H1B program where companies who paid an extra $1000 or so could hurry the checks along when the checks obviously were very flawed to begin with.

      Don’t get me wrong here, I know that there are many H1B holders that are very qualified even if they are relatively undercompensated. Thus I don’t think that we should bar entrance to everyone. Perhaps the companies should be more culpable here since they are the one’s who beg to bring more people over. Maybe sponsors should be held liable if a sponsored H1B holder turns out to have terrorist intent and the sponsor was neglegent in it’s reference checks.

      This goes along with road dog’s idea to make corporate sponsors of H1B applicants to pay for added security as well, after all, if they need the talent so badly they should be happy to pay top dollar for that talent if it doesn’t exist here. But, I think we all know that is not why they sponsor H1Bs, it’s to undercut the market, that’s all.

    • #3651697

      Overall Positive Thing

      by fluxit ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      There is a laundry list here that needs to be addressed:

      1. Foreigners are driving U.S. salaries down.
      2. Security and background checks are difficult.
      3. Easter egg code threats are prevalent.
      4. Access to sensitive systems (financial, security, DMZ’s) is a concern. The biggest IA threat is internal.

      Can you imagine an easter egg bomb in Merill Lynch’s software for executing buys and sells on the stock market? Or terrorists obtaining intimate knowledge of the Pentagon’s DMZ?

      I think tightening down on foreign labor is good. Afterall, how many Americans go abroad to work? Marginally few because those Foreign Governments do not allow it. I actually worked abroad but for no money and I had to pay into a ‘union’ that lined the pockets of some scumbag. I saw at one place the Greek Managers telling foreign staff that they had to pay a tax – that ‘tax’ went straight into the Greek pockets. They would sit around and laugh about it.

      More importantly I think to increase the integrity of IT workers there should be a state licensing program just as with Attorneys, CPA’s, Travel Agents, Real Estate Agents, Engineers, etc… Too many flight-by-night and seat-of-the-pants people are in this field.

      • #3651646

        Some sort of self-regulation?

        by road-dog ·

        In reply to Overall Positive Thing

        I do not believe that and state or federal “licensing” prgram will work. The standards will be too low for qualification and ethics. If such a system were put in place, it would turn into a “give me $50.00, here’s your card”. Don’t get me wrong, manu private organizations are the same way, such as The HTML writer’s guild and others.

        IT professionals need a strong self-regulation body where solid academic and professional standards are required for membership. Taking it a step further, a solid list of references that are thoroughly checked that would include former supervisors and customers should be required.

        If such a body were formed, and certification and membership were contributing factors to my marketability, I would join.

        • #3649906


          by fluxit ·

          In reply to Some sort of self-regulation?

          Don’t know of any successful self-governing programs.

          Although you cannot practice law, accounting, engineering, medicine, travel, pharmacy, private investigation, real estate sales, etc… without first being licensed by the state. Here in South Florida they send alot of people to jail for practicing without a license.

          Ask any engineer, attorney, CPA if it just cost them $50 and a hand out.

      • #3400601

        Consider this

        by rahul global ·

        In reply to Overall Positive Thing

        If MCDonalds, Ford, Coke & Pepsi want to open shops in other countries that is diversification. why can’t we apply the same to human capital, why don’t we make movement of human unrestricted, why are we thinking as american’s, indians, britons and others, we are human beings.

        as in the business labor market should also have buzzword SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST

    • #3649908

      There Should be Workarounds

      by xpertdragon ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      I myself, have worked as an I.T. Support Technician in my current position for 6+ months now, and used to have to travel to Juarez, Mexico often. The organization that I work for has established a manufacturing plant only 15 minutes on the other side of the border. The process for me personally, was to obtain a 1 month work/consulting permit to head down into a working environment in Mexico. This process only required proof of U.S. Citizenship with proper I.D. and your Birth Cirtificate. Ialso realize that the issue at hand is Immigant Work Visas for those that are in the Technology field, and often need to commute to the U.S. to work.

      I think in many cases, there are those I.T. professionals that come to work at our U.S. locations with little or no Visa problems at all. I think this issue has to factors to it: 1.) It all depends on your past application process or processes for Work Visas in the past. There are different time periods that you can establish a work Visa in the United States for, and the Department of Defense just may now be stepping up on screening processes that put up a red flag on those immigrants applying for Work Visas with a greater amount of time between expiration periods.

      Many of us already know, that We live in a completely different and paranoid world since September 11th, and you will continue to hear about the overly exposed topic of 9/11 and all the concerns it has created for at least the next 5 years of all our lives.

      In Conclusion, I think those applying for Work Visas for the FIRST time, will have the most problems and face a new screening system compared to those that have successfuly obtained Work Visas for the past couple years to head over to the U.S. for company work. Doesn’t matter if they are coming from Mexico, Canada or Cuba.

      Paul M. Chavez

      • #3649848

        There are “work arounds”

        by irv ·

        In reply to There Should be Workarounds

        4 or 5 years ago I became aware that a vendor whose name stats with “I” was bringing in coding “consultants” from Checknea for 3 or 4 months and then rotating them home. Appears that they were paying a “Consulting” firm a flat fee for services and these “consultants” would come here for several months on a business visa and then return to their homeland. I’m not nocking their intellegence but we had capable people here but not at the low rate these people were being paid by their “consulting” firm employers.

    • #3649902


      by fluxit ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      Numerous countries around the world export thier labor since the durable goods are minimal to export. Predominantly these countries are the Phillipines, India, Pakistan, Borneo, former Soviet Block states and England. Many more export labor but these have a very high degree. Often they send they earning home to family there who are struggling to make ends meet.

      The problem is that this is a loop hole and vulnerability for ‘unlawful combatants’ or terrorist to gain access to our system/society and attack from within. We need to close it up and manage it. In the past the US used immigrnat in a variety of political ways. One was to spread the taste of democracy to everywhere. Another was to pad the electorate with liberal voters. We saw this under the Clinton administration when the gates were opened wide.

      I know these things as I used to work for a cruise line as well as abroad elsewhere. Nearly every employee was foreign except me. Go to Disney how many foreigners are there?Another part of the puzzle is that Americans do not want to do dirty work or low pay so others are brought in for that purpose.

    • #3649893


      by garion11 ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      First time I have heard of this. Well, DOD has my full support. Most of them come from India, Pakistan, or the Middle East. Its sad, a few rotten apples can ruin a whole bunch?!?…so on so forth, but the freedom of a nation (which is more important) shouldn’t be compromised. Until those people learn to change their own country first, they shouldn’t be allowed in. Its too bad though, there are some brilliant people in the IT industry around the world, which the U.S. companies can benefit from greatly. If anything, India is probably the closest to U.S. as a technology partner. Well, whatever happens, happens!

      • #3649806

        “those people”

        by road-dog ·

        In reply to Interesting

        Take it easy on the generalizations. I would not like to be caught between a Hindu and a Muslim. There are lots of different peoples there.

        The hijackers involved in 9-11 were here predominantly on STUDENT visas, not H1-B. The whole administration covering immigration and temporary visas for whatever purpose needs an enema.

        Absolutely, security comes first. Immigration needs to be temporarily closed and INS needs to get a handle on the foreigners who are already here. We need to separate the sheep from the wolves.

        …Then we can get on with the extremely important business of hating the FRENCH!

        • #3652116

          Sheep from Wolves…

          by garion11 ·

          In reply to “those people”

          How do we do that? ….lol. We certainly can’t take out an ad saying…”if you are a terrorist please don’t apply…”. Like I said, a few rotten apples ruin a whole bunch….blah, blah…

          My point is until those people meaning everyone that comes from that area (aka, middle east, India, Pakistan, whatever else) shouldn’t be allowed in, period. Its a shame, but…we have to generalize to find those wolves..meaning we have to assume everyone is a wolf. Sadly there is no other way at this point.

          I can’t even trust the women or children at this point. Dude, I wouldn’t even trust their pets.

        • #3650661

          I totally Agree

          by justin.hess ·

          In reply to Sheep from Wolves…

          There are too many pepole in the IT industry that are american that are out of work. Why, becuase as IT industry is at it’s low right now. There are people who come over on “work visa’s” that take those job’s. Why because everyything boils down to the all mighty dollar.

        • #3650489


          by rrgilmore_2001 ·

          In reply to “those people”

          I tell you what INS can’t even handle the borders
          we have let alone handle the immagrants comming from the Hindu and a Muslim (as you put it ) region.
          I do not know what they are going to do, because if some terriost get thier hand on top secret data
          from the pentagon, because some under paid INS agent did not do thier job right.
          Well you can see where I AM GOING WITH THIS!

          I do not think it is a good Idea to let anyone in without a full investigation at there cost not ours.

          If this means they have to go into some kind of camp untill they are cleared.
          If this means we can only let so many in a year.

          If we can prevent anther 9-11-2001 from happening again.

          I am all for it.

    • #3649852

      About time

      by irv ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      It’s about time that someone limited this program. It is nothing but a cop out for cheap labor for companies. If “qualification” is the argument then companies need to start “growing their own” instead of using the existing employees up and then throwing them away. Companies used to do that and then write it off as a cost of doing business, but maybe there is no tax break anymore?

    • #3650773

      Now’s the best time.

      by bobmatch ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      With lots of tec workers out looking for a job, now is the best time to limit immigrant visas. It seems to me the need for visas just aren’t needed.

    • #3650679

      Deceptive article!

      by mgelman ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      From what I read in the article, DOD is talking about limiting access to *DOD* projects — which they already do now!

      Nothing about wider sanctions or closing down the H1-B program. Most IT work done in the commercial world doesn’t have national security implications.

      • #3650539

        Yes it Does

        by garion11 ·

        In reply to Deceptive article!

        It does have security implications. So does owning a Dunkin Donuts, washing a car, working in the U.S. The thing is, it boils down to money. The terrorists need financing. What is the richest country in the world? Exactly.

        They work here (in IT or whatever), send the money back to their overseas accounts…and hallelleuah.

        One of the terrorists involved in September 11th owned a Dunkin Donuts. Go figure. So we start at the technology side and move down and flush the rats away in the process.

      • #3650482

        commercial world

        by rrgilmore_2001 ·

        In reply to Deceptive article!

        Does that include airlines?
        Does that include banks? Does that include credit card companies?
        Does that include oil and gas companies?
        Oh ya! Headlines read toluene accident.
        Computer operated valve fails kills thousands.
        Ya know there are distilleries in LA and the SF bay area.
        Hers anther one is you don’t like that one computer operated switch for railroad fails.
        Train derails CARRING NUCLIER WAIST.
        YA I know the switch for the railroad is a little heavy.

        • #3651044

          The bottom line is

          by garion11 ·

          In reply to commercial world

          money, period. It doesn’t matter what industry they are screwing around in, the money gets transported back into their web.

          Remember this, money rules the world, and whoever controls money, controls the world. Those people are a bunch of leeches, its a funny thing, but they need us for their own survival (when was the last time you had money pouring out of Afghans). If we reconginze their need we are already 1 step ahead of them. Get it?

      • #3651089

        What to defend?

        by packratt ·

        In reply to Deceptive article!

        Let us look at it this way, what did the terrorists target?

        The pentagon, so there is an argument to protect sensitive government data.

        But, they also deliberately damaged the economy with the attack on the trade center…

        But it seems thacorporate America is unconcerned about being vulnerable whereas the government does much to protect itself… Maybe that’s because executives spend more time on the golf courses and don’t worry about risking their lives in the office buildings so long as they save a dollar for their own pocket at our expence.

        Yet, there is a more subtle aspect to why the IT industry should be considered a defense industry… What do you think the government uses for it’s systems? Haven’t you seen the software that is restricted from export?

        It is funny though, how government is so willing to defend itself at any cost but unwilling to protect the people who they are supposed to serve.

        • #3651041


          by garion11 ·

          In reply to What to defend?

          why so many executives died in the 11th attack. They must have had a golf course on the roof of one of the buildings.

        • #3650882


          by packratt ·

          In reply to Gee…thats

          You aren’t listening, as usual… That’s why they don’t care about the backgrounds of who they bring over and that’s why they still lobby hard to get cheap IT labor imported with as few restrictions and checks as possible.

          It’s simply because they don’t have to work with them and they are the one’s who pocket the extra cash.

          Same old Garion…

        • #3650418


          by garion11 ·

          In reply to No

          Same old Packratt. Still thinking he is more important than the people who gave him the job…

        • #3650302


          by packratt ·

          In reply to LOL

          Same old Garion, thinking executives are special just because they are executives.

          Really, I just believe in equality, I am no better or worse than any other. I just get frustrated when I see people who truely believe they are better than all others just because they manage or because they have more money. I get even more frustrated by the people who reinforce this belief by blindly worshipping these egomaniacs.

          Who is more important, the person who relies on others to get a job done but refuses to acknowledge that or the person who gets the job done? Nothing would ever be accomplished if we were all managers and executives my friend, the world is built by those who do.

        • #3650240

          I’ve made a boatload of money for..

          by road-dog ·

          In reply to Yep…

          previous employers, and I have never felt that my efforts were not acknowledged. Either you aren’t performing as well as you believe, or you have worked for some sorry companies.

          My crew pulled off an $8,000,000 deal on a major network design androllout for a bank. Several times we ran up a $1600 tab for a night’s debauchery in an upscale topless place in Manhattan. The company owner got upset only because we didn’t invite HIM! All limits on our perdiem were removed, and if we wanted our wives to fly up to NY for the weekend instead of us flying home they were OK with it.

          You seem to be upset at corporate America. Exactly what would it take to “gruntle” you(I’m assuming thet you’re disgruntled a lot)? Be specific, let’s hear Pack-ratt’s list of demands..

        • #3650227

          TheMessage is for down below…no room!

          by garion11 ·

          In reply to Yep…

          To Roaddog:

          Ah, at last. My efforts haven’t been futile. Thanks Road-dog. Its great to hear your comments. And personally I can’t wait till he posts his (Packratt) list of demands.

          To Packratt:

          I don’t think executives are special or anything like that. As for people thinking they are better than others because they have money/or they manage, well, to put it frankly, They are better than others (in some ways and in other ways they may not be). You don’t see every hump or lazy person getting rich do you? Their position/wealth (if earned) reflects that, they worked hard to get where they are in life. So I do look up to them, and I always will, someday I hope to be one of them. Its called success. I am not gonna kiss theirbutt, but I will respect them and try to learn from them.

          I am trying to understand your arguments big guy, but Road-dog is right. Why are you so angry at corporate america? Would you still have a job, if it wasn’t for these “egomaniacs”?

        • #3430466

          I know you won’t listen…

          by packratt ·

          In reply to Yep…

          But my life is a portrait of futility anyways… So here is a list of so called “demands” that I would think make for a better workplace.

          1. For everyone to stop rewarding boot licking as a qualification for promotion.

          2. Honesty and integrityfrom all in the workplace, in other words, stop promoting those who are just good backstabbers, we waste too much thought on workplace politics to be efficient.

          3. For everyone to realize that each person’s contribution is equally important for acompany to survive. An office full of managers will never accomplish anything and an office full of workers will be much less efficient spending it’s time mired in paperwork and meetings.

          4. Acknowledge that each person has a role to play and that their viewpoint may yield valuable insight if listened to, especially when the matter is within their realm of expertice.

          5. Reward people for what they do, not who they know.

          6. Let people have a life outside of work, a fair work week that allows for 8 hours of work, 8 hours with family or friends, and 8 hours of rest. This is what our parents and grandparents gave up so much for in the union days, we should not throw it away.

          7. Equitable compensation for all. When CEOs earn 500 times more than the people earning him and the shareholders money there is a problem. This is up from 100 times the average wage a little over a decade ago. Where does it end?

          These are most of the basic things that I would like to see that I really haven’t seen yet, personally.

          Am I really that unreasonable? If enough people say that these things are unreasonable then I will never post on TR again, I swear.

        • #3430453


          by packratt ·

          In reply to Yep…

          These seem common sense to me, but I always overestimate others so I will include these as well.

          8. Respect others as fellow humans, as equals, because that is what they are, not job titles, but people like you.

          9. Stop calling people resources, assets, and other various terms that turn humans into objects and appliances. We are not something you use up and throw away.

          10. Give something back to the community and consumer. These are just as important as your employees and should demandyour respect and honesty.

          My offer still stands, prove to me that I am unreasonable and I will be gone for ever, much to all of your collective joys. Tell your friends too that this is their chance to be rid of that awfull Packratt for good.

        • #3430423

          Reality 101 – Refutation Part I,

          by road-dog ·

          In reply to Yep…

          Here are my observations about your list of demands. I must say that you have an interesting take on the workplace. I refute them in their entirety, but I’d rather you not leave the board for two reasons:

          A) You’re entertaining… I read and I don’t know whether to laugh or cry!
          B) I still have a faint glimmer of hope that you will accept the world for what it is and be a better contributor to this forum.

          Here we go….
          1) One man’s bootlicker is another man’s industrious, compliant, and respectful employee.
          2) Office politics are the norm. Someone who disagrees with you is not necessarily a backstabber. Ethical people are the norm, not the exception. Revise your standards.
          3) All contributions are not equal. Even thebest burger flipper on the face of the earth is worth $5.75 per hour. Some employees are missed when they leave, others are not.
          4) There is a time to TALK, and a time to DO. Not everything is done in committee.
          5) If the boss has two equal employees, one has connections upstairs. Who gets the raise? The one with the contacts because he has the ability to help the boss and the department with his relationships.
          6) So…. Only bootlickers work O.T.? Your parents and grandparents also got timeand a half for us.
          7) Different jobs are worth different dollar amounts, deal with it. Define equitable, If your pizza shop pays every employee twice as much, your pizza is going to cost twice as much. Inflation is under “I” in Webster’s. Where does THAT end?

        • #3430421

          Reality 101 – Refutation Part II,

          by road-dog ·

          In reply to Yep…

          8) We are NOT equals. Titles (and lack of them) indicate rank in the organization. You respect those who pay you, those who work for you, and the person who brings in the doughnuts on Fridays.
          9) Resource doesn’t necessarily mean expendable. As long as your dog still think’s you’re god, who cares what H.R. calls you. If you’re considered an asset, that’s a good thing. If you are a resource to your company, does that mean that’s all you are in life?
          10) Charitable contributions by corporationsare at an all time high. Companies DO “give something back to the consumers”. They’re called stock dividends. If you don’t think companies give something back, take a look at the confiscatory tax code and the bloated giveaways that it finances.

        • #3430392

          Road Dog

          by packratt ·

          In reply to Yep…

          We may want to take this to a different discussion… But anyways, as a counter to your arguments:

          1. One man’s bootlicker is another man’s spineless yes-person who has no original thought and is thus of limited worth. Respect is one thing, bootlicking is another.
          2. Even if something is the norm at some point in time does not make it right. Hitler’s ideology was the norm at one time, was it right? I disagree that ethical people in the workplace are the norm, at least by my experience.
          3. Perhaps, but I don’t see any executive that is worth millions.
          4. What’s your point with this one?
          5. Then the employees are unequal in your eyes, I’m talking about a situation where the better employee loses to the one with political clout.
          6. OTis fine, when it’s compensated somehow, now we all do it for free and smile about it.
          7. Inflation still exists even though employees have earned an average of 5% increases in 10 years while executives have given themselves WAY more than that.
          8. I say that all people are created equal and have equal worth to society… I’m sorry you don’t agree.
          9. I care that people see others as not people but things to use, it upsets me, sorry it does not bother you. We are more than job titles and numbers.
          10. Charitable contributions are tax shelters and often are made to organizations that lobby government on the contributer’s behalf. Companies do not pay their share of taxes, Some don’t pay any at all. We pay for the bloat, not the companies.
          But, I am a person of my word, if someone impartial states that your arguments prove me unreasonable I will leave whether that is your intent or not.

        • #3429378

          Idealism and reality

          by generalist ·

          In reply to Yep…

          I’d say that Packratt’s list reflects a set of behaviors that, for the most part, would make the world a lot better place to live in.

          At the same time, road-dog’s reality comments do indeed reflect reality. Some of that reality is good and some of that reality makes me sick.

          Let’s take the bootlicker example.

          I wholly agree that we should stop rewarding bootlicking as a qualification for promotion. Promotions should be based on competence, not charisma. (Yes I know this is idealistic…)

          At the same time I know that the definition of bootlicker varies and that industrious, compliant and respectful employees are sometimes considered bootlickers by others. This ‘label’ is often false when the person doing the labeling is incompetent or overly cynical. It pains me to see others trying to bring people down to their level with heavily biased accusations.

          There ARE, however, true bootlickers who use charisma in place of competence. These are the people who ‘deserve’ the title and who need to be watched carefully because their lack of competence can be deadly to the health of an organization. In many instances they can destroy an organization by alienating the people who know how to get the job done.It is an interesting problem. How would we encourage competent, industrious, compliant and respectful employees without rewarding the true bootlickers?

          And to further complicate things, how do we deal with the fact that we’re dealing with a spectrum of competence and charisma? It is possible to be extremely competent in an area but be impossible to get along with. At the same time, a person could be more competent than the average and be very charismatic. Then you have the extremely charismatic person who is a lot less competent than the average.

          Who would you promote, given the above choices?

        • #3430508


          by road-dog ·

          In reply to Yep…

          Unfortunately, reality is the world we live and work in. Even the “Workers Paradise” has been shown to be pure propaganda by Gorbie. The statues of Vladmir Lenin have been torn down and melted for scrap.

          Suffice it to say, Packratt needs to accept reality and learn to operate in the corporate environment. Wishing will not change anything other than destroying your spirit and raising your hairline.

          The answer to bootlickers and other corporate problems is painfully obvious. When economic times are good, crappy companies with cronyism and incompetence will “brain drain” themselves into insolvency or change. The key is to have the doo-dads to walk away from a bade environment.

          Don’t whine, walk. If you are incapable of finding a company you can tolerate, maybe your standards need recalibration. Anyway, Pack’s statements describe him as an absolutist, and they are never happy.

        • #3655097

          Who’s an absolutist?

          by packratt ·

          In reply to Yep…

          Road dog, you refused to see any reason in ANY point that I made. What does that make you?

          It’s ok though, I’m sick and tired of dealing with people who absolutely refuse to listen or reason with ANY other viewpoint but the one that fits best with their delusions of grandure like you do.

          I’m done, I’m finished, you won’t see me here again because you and the people like you make me utterly sick with the realization that the world only goes downhill from here with the vile and disgusting close-minded megalomaniacal greed that feeds on others that you and so many others like you have shown me time and again.

          Have fun ruining the lives of others for your own gain, I wish there was an afterlife to punish the beasts like you. Thankfully for me I am finished with the likes of you and those of your rotted ilk.

        • #3400599

          Global Village

          by rahul global ·

          In reply to Yep…

          hi pack,
          do u think a globe without boundries would be a great idea, i think you talked about equality, let me know from you why is that US $ is more stronger than other countries, have you ever thought about that, what have people on the other side of world have done wrong to get such a depreciated currency remember it is the exchange rate which is determinal.

          y don’t we have a global currency, with a global goverance, wherein we target common enemy that is illetracy, unemployment and terrorrism.

        • #3430443

          Wait! DMV/ Airport Security?

          by nonamecharlie ·

          In reply to No

          If you want to demonize corps about improper hiring practices be consistent. At least you get talent from India, our airport screeners and DMV workers aren’t fit for McDonalds!

          Felony convictions AND no high school diploma OK! Welcome aboard the newly “professionalized” airport security where you feel up female passengers to your content and confiscate dangerous items like eyelash curlers!

          I changed my mind..let the H1-B visas roll in and take over the DMV and airport security.

        • #3430400

          My point was…

          by packratt ·

          In reply to Wait! DMV/ Airport Security?

          First, before I start I would ask that you re-read my posts…

          Ok, if you actually read all of them you might realize that I was refering to the fact that the only independent study of the H1b program, in an albeit limited study, indicated that 33% of accepted H1B applicants were fraudulent. This means that their work histories, references, even education were found to be false. So, if we take a leap of guesswork and make an assumption that a possible 33% of the 100,000 H1Bs per year are here fraudulently then I wonder how many of those are here with ill intent?

          Aside from that, I agree with your other argument in that corporations are not concerned with the quality of their product so long as consumers keep consuming and that security firms are no exception to this rule. Whether they are in an airport or your office does not matter, so long as the employees are cheap and the consumers keep paying is all that matters in their world. So much for free markets with today’s consumer, the combination just does not work.

        • #3430380

          Check out my earlier posts.

          by nonamecharlie ·

          In reply to My point was…

          If you read mine (as I did yours)you will see that I am all for tighter scrutiny on H1-B visa program, on all visa programs as a matter of fact.

          You are wrong about my position on corporations though. I am not worried about them and cheap labor. Rather the reverse where we have incompetent yet expensive labor in government. Corporations do not have the corner market on fraudulency, the government does. If there was any finger pointing to be done, it is with government inadequencies that you and I pay for. It goes beyond the INS and into the local, state, and other federal government agencies (FAA comes to mind). Unfortunately with government, you don’t have the choice but to pay for it.

          At least with corporations, they actually do have to hire skilled workers or their business will fail plus you can fire people. Ever heard of anyone in FBI, CIA, INS getting fired for gross negligence?

          Free market (albeit, not perfect) works better than socialism or government.

          The last part was just tongue and cheek.

        • #3430247

          I do agree…

          by packratt ·

          In reply to My point was…

          Really, I do agree with you…

          Except for the free market, at least at this point in time. Everything needs balance to succeed, unfortunately there is nothing to balance out a free market right now. If consumers were made capable of making informed and intelligent choices and had the motivation to do so then I would say the time was right for a completely free market economy.

          The problem is that today’s common consumer is both lazy and ill informed and that swings the balance out of whack, giving too much power to the corporation.

          This is an unfortunate reality since I also agree that the perfect system would likely have a free market economy base. I don’t like government, it’s a wastefull thing and is problematic no matter which form it takes. But, I’ve gradually realised over time that most people just are not ready or willing to govern themselves.

          But really, I do agree with you for the most part.

    • #3650533

      Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      by mpboro ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      As far as i`m concerned, i think this step will reduce the risks but will never eliminate it, because there are so many “John Walker Lindh” American citizens working in IT Industry in the USA. The most important thing would be to consider the economics of the country and the repucursions of this significant move.The US is the worlds #1 country in almost everything and should never be intimidated by thugs. The people who should not even be allowed to enter the USA are well known and should be barred for ever, espcially the “saddam Hussein” and the likes.

      • #3649582

        To stop IT immigrants isn’t the solution

        by aldanatech ·

        In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

        If the Feds think stopping IT immigrants will make the country safe, they’re wrong. If they do that, who can they make the country safe by more national security issue people such as the the “Unibomber”, Timothy McVeigh and even “John Walker”?

        IT immigrants are people that want to prosper in their field and work hard towards a better future for the country. They have no time to think about any related terrorist attempt. Also, if they cannot work in government organizations, the’ll just lookelsewhere in the field.

        I think that current background checks procedures are enough to hire trustworthy non-citizen IT professionals.

    • #3651090

      They should do it…..

      by bgjkl ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      I do not agree that only a small amount of companies do this, at least in the NorthEast. I am a member of several user groups, and I see more than less companies doing this.

      The trend now is not to train employees in new technology anymore, but to use them up, throw them away, and replace them with new technology folks.

      Lack of jobs + boom of IT immigration is allowing the companies to do this. My last company had more non-citizens than citizens working in IT. They displaced American citizens in at least 45 of the positions. About 80 positions in one US city, in one company.

      There are more ways to destroy the country than with bombs. Economic problems can be worse, and this trend is driving saleries down, and flooding an already wet market.

      It is a continuing threat to the future of being able to make a reasonable wage and stay employed in IT.

      More immigration at this point can only mean

      • #3651023

        H-1B visa application data base

        by hooobeee ·

        In reply to They should do it…..

        Learn the statistics of H-1B visa applications.
        2001 was a record year for these “labor condition

        I lost my IT job in 2001.
        I am an American.

        • #3430440

          Join the Club

          by schwagerjt ·

          In reply to H-1B visa application data base

          I feel your pain. I am a veteran and lost my job in the IT sector one week after receiving two awards for my “out of the box” contributions.

          The Canadian company I worked for laid off 1/2 its workers (45,000 worldwide). I was nailed on the last round. Here in the U.S., the composition is still about 50% H-1B visa workers. I’m sure that to the bean counters I was simply a cost cutting measure.

      • #3430528

        I do not beleive you

        by friendly_alien_spacewalker ·

        In reply to They should do it…..

        I do not beleive that any company canlegally replace 50 percent of their work force with immigrants. If they have done so then it is illegal (even in the existing laws) and I would suspect you were probably working in an apple picking farm rather than a IT company.

        • #3476795

          Believe it, Bubba

          by leftyfrizzell ·

          In reply to I do not beleive you

          I just came from a place where there were only 50 US citizens. All the other 300 or so were from Madras. I worked there for nearly a year.

          There was never any attempt at to comply with the requirements of job postings. I know for a fact that one of the positions was funded at $90K and the H1B was only getting 35K. (We split a house.)

          I don’t fault the people. I fault the company for abusing the system. When the big lay off came, non-H1B’s were the first to go. I was there when it occured. (Someone had to retrieve the computers, secure the email, etc).


    • #3651050

      From an H1B

      by mukherjeen ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      Being a h1b worker, I know the pros and cons. Many of us have come to US not just to make more money, but to seek better opportunities, especially related to their careers. I can certainly say that for myself.

      If the Fed wants to stop immigrant workers in IT and keep those jobs only for US citizens, what would happen to the thousands of permanent residents who are not yet citizens and who are in high-tech areas ? The number of H1B’s can be reduced, but I don’t think it would be right to eliminate it fully. What would happen to existing H1B workers ?
      I conduct technical interviews for the company I work for. I have see people failing miserably in the interviews. Why would a company hire such people if one finds a better one even thoughhe is on H1?

      • #3650880

        That’s funny

        by packratt ·

        In reply to From an H1B

        I would perform interviews and my employer would hire H1Bs even though they were worse in interviews than the American counterparts or had horrible resumes…

        Sure, that may not be indicative of all applicants from overseas, I’ve met many an intelligent person who may be AS GOOD AS an American techie. But I still don’t get the superiority complex some people have just because they were lucky enough to get to come over to America. That smug sense of being better than others is often unjustified.

        • #3430437

          Dime a Dozen

          by schwagerjt ·

          In reply to That’s funny

          Yeah that’s been my experience also.

          Try to nail them down and get them to make a decision and they beat around the bush. You never get a straight answer. It’s a cultural thing.

          The best coders in our shop were not the H-1B guys. They provided the cheap coding gruntwork. Their code often had to be tweaked by others more knowledgeable to get it working.

          I certainly don’t feel any sense of being somehow inferior mentally to them. They just happen to come a dime a dozen.

      • #3429348

        Technical interviews

        by generalist ·

        In reply to From an H1B

        I sometimes wonder about technical interviews.

        It is fairly easy to unintentionally create a technical interview that is heavily biased towards being able to parrot back technically correct answers about the ‘parts’ of a topic without truly testing the competence of the person being interviewed.

        If your questions resemble something out of a technical ‘Trivial Pursuit’ game, you may have problems. This could select for somebody who knows the names of ALL the ‘parts’ but lacks the skill to put them together into a usable application. It can also eliminate those who are very competent at putting together the 20% of the ‘parts’ that make up 99% of the application.

        Even if you are able to eliminate this bias, there are always the social ‘factors’ of the interview. If there are any racial/cultural differences between the interviewer and the interviewee, bias may be introduced. As a result, a more competent interviewee who is a lot different than the interviewer may lose out to a slightly less competent interviewee who is less different.

        When this bias is intentional, it is called racism. But when it is subliminal, it is simple human nature.

      • #3430807

        From an American worker

        by rpisaneschi ·

        In reply to From an H1B

        Lets be honest here, the reason you have a Job in OUR country is because we have incompetent Politicians that are on the take not becuase your more competent than we are.
        H-1B is simply a welfare program for wealthy campaign contributors that should be ended.
        You people earn money here, go to your homeland for a month every year, and haul all the money back their.
        Your SMUG comments about how technically competent you are, please get over it, any idiot can conduct an interview.
        Conducting an Interview is like watching Jeapordy, the game is only hard for those without the answers in there hands.
        Americans need to realize the depth to which money has corrupted Congress, and act accordingly at the ballot box Nov. 7. They also should lobby members of Congress to vote against the H-1B visa legislation.

        • #3430495

          I agree.

          by danielgalassi ·

          In reply to From an American worker

          I am Argentian, and my country has been invaded by people of Chile and Bolivia. They and our politics “fired” many Argentinian workers because the workers of Bolivia are C H E A P E R.
          U.S.A. MUST avoid at all cost give more H1B visas.

      • #3430699

        Your grammar sucks

        by binaryvision ·

        In reply to From an H1B

        Your grammar sucks man, why would an American firm want to hire you for a communications position? only because your a lot cheaper than paying our own U.S. person.

      • #3431178

        this is another h1b…

        by thisisfun ·

        In reply to From an H1B my man….do not let the fact that you take tech interviews fool you into believing you are something special. Trust me you are not. Believe it or not I happen to be one of the many H1B workers just like you. please put yourself in the shoes of american citizens…what if u were in India earning well and this pakistani or bangladeshi dude walks in and takes your job for half the rate….bet you would not like it. Would you?

        The frustration I see vented by many on this discussion is “sometimes” quite valid. USA is going through a recession…many tech workers got laid off (incl h1b’s). But with this climate it is more important for this country to look after its own rather than you and me….life is tough.

        A temporary reduction (freeze whatever) in giving new H1B’s should be done. Once things improve then definitly the doors will open again. Also a better method to find really qualified applicants should be devised by INS rather than bringing in a bunch of fresh college recruits and selling them here as “experienced” techies. Even educational qualifications are sometimes faked by many candidates.

        Also to all my other “friends” on this discussion forum. H1B’s are but a small part of the immigration/job scene. What about the “thousands” of other non-tech workers who come in (mostly illegally) and take away much more jobs then me and my other h1b colleages take away. There was a move to grant them a blanket amnesty and grantall of them green cards (not anymore:) I guess they do not matter to you all cause they did not affect your jobs or salaries.

      • #3643777

        Go home and help your own people!

        by dragon725 ·

        In reply to From an H1B

        Very simple, go home and help your own bad economy with your technically superior selves and stop ruining ours!

        I too am tired of the smug, snotty, and arrogant treatment that I receive from overseas HB1 consultants. You aren’t as good as you think you are. Why do you say that?…If you were, then you would be able to pull your own country out of the hole that it’s in and would not even need to come here. D&^$ politians!


        • #3398930


          by grahamengland ·

          In reply to Go home and help your own people!

          I left England to come to USA for two reasons. Firstly I’ve been made redundant from EIGHT jobs in 21 years in the IT industry (never once due to my performance) and frankly I’d had enough. Secondly I came here to get away from racism and stereotyping. Seems from your comment that I’ve only achieved ONE of my goals.

        • #3398874


          by leftyfrizzell ·

          In reply to RACIST!

          “I too am tired of the smug, snotty, and arrogant treatment that I receive from overseas HB1 consultants”…from message above.

          GrahamEngland, that’s not racism. That’s simply stating ones opinion. And, while you may not like it..hey, it’s the US.

          And, here’s my opinion, if I’d been tossed off 8 jobs in 21 years, I’d look seriously at myself and my skills. You either torqued off the people that you worked with or failed “miserably” to update your skills. I notice that you don’t give thetotal number of jobs that you had inbetween these 8. There are a lot of reasons that a person gets “laid off” from a job. And, one reason might be being difficult to work with. I know Phd’s that got let go when they kept the college student that washis understudy. Discrimination? No…the Phd had a personality like a crocodile.

          When you point the finger of guilt at someone, you have 3 fingers pointing back at your ownself.

        • #3400598

          Birth Incidence

          by rahul global ·

          In reply to Doorknob???

          try to be more open to fellow alien human beings, they are here because they want a racism free land and according to their opinion usa is one such country, they fled their countries because their societies are in tolerant, please don’t make this great country as intolerant as others. by the way what has been your contribution except being born in this great country.

        • #3402159

          This proves my point!

          by grahamengland ·

          In reply to Doorknob???

          In my definition of racism, it includes stereo-typing and jumping to conclusions at a person without knowing all the background.
          No, in every case of my being ‘tossed off’ as you describe it, I was the LAST to go, there’s not much I can do when companies such as SPC and Lotus Development close down offices or move them across the globe!
          As for my personality, I might not be perfect but I’ve never once had a complaint at work about my attitude or friendliness.
          As for my work, I’ve had dozens of performance awards that show I’m hard working.
          As for my skills, do you really think a company would pay thousands of dollars to relocate me into another country if I wasn’t skilled enough.
          And incidently, the number of jobs I’ve had? That willbe 9 (I left ONE of my own choice, “Northamber”, because of the dreadful way they treated ALL their staff).
          Sorry Leftyf, but you’re miles off base in summing me up!

        • #3398738

          Racists of all races

          by generalist ·

          In reply to RACIST!

          I have to agree that the person you are replying to appears to have some racist tendencies.

          At the same time I wouldn’t be surprised if the person has been on the receiving end of racist behavior. Racists come in all colors and from all countries, despite the stereotype of a racist being a white, beer-swilling American redneck.

          Of course it can be politically incorrect to call a non-stereotypical racist a racist. I seem to recall that Barbara Jordan, a black female politician fromTexas, was frowned upon when she spoke of black racists in a speech at the 1984 Democratic Convention.

          Things are slowly changing in the United States and around the world. Unfortunately, stress in various forms can cause people to revert.

          I hope that the comments of a handful of people don’t completely sour your opinion of the United States.

    • #3651025

      H-1B visa program needs to be stopped

      by hooobeee ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      The H-1B program is a type of indentured labor.
      Such a program should be abolished.

      • #3430529

        So should be capitalism and Free Market

        by friendly_alien_spacewalker ·

        In reply to H-1B visa program needs to be stopped

        So should be capitalism and free market!!

        • #3430861

          WOW! A Communist that can write

          by garion11 ·

          In reply to So should be capitalism and Free Market

          Free Market/Capitalism is why you are able to post on this site, dude. Why don’t crawl back into your dark hole from which you came and lie there till someone beats some sense into you, cause your ideas and your opinions certainly don’t belong in this country or post.

          Yeah I know, I know, you have freedom of speech…we all do. Its just funny how others are supportive of something that helps them, while people such as yourself shoots their own support structure (get the analogy, or is ittoo much of an overload for your puny mind).
          And I could go on and on, but what would be the point so thus we come back to my earlier statement, why don’t you go back to the hole you crawled out of and wait for someone to beat you senseless, you SOCIALIST.

    • #3650410

      Racism VS Tribalism

      by road-dog ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      Let me explain…. One might come to the conclusion that many posters here are racist due to their opposition to H1-B. This I feel is not the case.

      The human race has been broken down geographically and now sociologically people identify themselves as a member of the “people who reside “somewhere”. This is the case with me, as I identify myself as the American “tribe” which includes all races as members. I believe that most Americans do also, although my term “tribe” might not be the best word for it. Suffice it to say, that I think that the American dream should be available to our “tribe” first,and then accessed by outsiders as available.

      H1-B should be restricted to the point where American jobs are made available to any American qualified and willing to do so. H1-B should authorized only if the slot could not be filled by an American at industry standard wage (including RELO)in a specified period of time during which the position is publicly posted. If this were the means test to authorize H1-B hiring, the program would scale pack due to lack of interest.

      I also think that H1-B positions should be reviewed annually and reposted, and go through the same procedure as a new position to give an American access to the opportunity first.

    • #3430701

      Kick Immigrants out

      by binaryvision ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      Its harder to get a job because of immigrants. My forefathers helped create this prosperity, but many younger IT people like me who have the same skills have trouble competing with H1-B Visa workers.

      • #3430541

        The job will go with them

        by friendly_alien_spacewalker ·

        In reply to Kick Immigrants out

        I know it is hard for a young hothead like you to understand this but if you knew enough about global economy boy you would know that the it is much more easier to shift jobs (programming,administration) to overseas than ever before.

      • #3661896

        Outmigrating jobs

        by generalist ·

        In reply to Kick Immigrants out

        If you want to attempt to slow the outmigration of jobs, consider doing corporate cleanups and kicking out the CEOs and CFOs that are outsourcing to other countries.

        I suspect that there would be a one or two quarter improvement in local hiring.Then, when the corporate profits drop, outsourcing will restart, perhaps with am aim to moving most of the company overseas.

        Of course, if too many jobs get outsourced and too many people in the US are out of work, politics will start to be influenced and programs like H1B will be curtailed. Furthermore, unless other economies can take up the slack, globalization could run into a problem of not having enough of a market to support the cost savings.

        It promises to be interesting. Unfortunately, if you have been directly impacted by globalization, ‘interesting’ doesn’t pay the mortgage or other bills.

    • #3430542

      Demand and Supply in global market

      by friendly_alien_spacewalker ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      IT industry now more than ever is spread all over the world. If you stop legal immigrants to coma and work here corporations will only be too glad to shift the development centres to offshore locations , because all said and done it is just demand and supply and what matters is profitibality not popular opinion.Moreover once the job base shifts from USA to elsewhere do you think you will get a new job? No sir because there will be no job for you. If you need a prosperous USA you need to keep both the consumers and the suppliers here as it has been.Just look at how the call centres are being moved away to other nations and here they are replacing people in call centres with CRM software. I am very agonised to see some of the very low level replies bordering on near insanity from supposedly educated people in this industry.

      That said I agree that maybe foreign nationals should not be allowed in sensitive defence projects and I am sure the Government must have procedures to take care of it allready.

      But if on the other hand you blame your joblessness on h1b’s that just reflects how stupid and arrogant you are and probably one of the reasons why you are finding it hard to get a new one.

    • #3428550

      College kids/loans&jobs Lost!

      by tbs007thefuture ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      Hello To All
      I’m not a racist nor am I for Corporate America’s Ideas that foreigners should have our jobs!The loans by Millions of college USA kids can’t be paid if theres no job/Held By Foreigner who sends 35-45% of their money back to..? India,Israel,God knows where to support their families.So the choicer is this? Do we USA Citizens allow Government who voted in favor of this in the first place displacing a million Citizens of real jobs,Continue this Atrocity against Americans?It’s unfortunate lobbies and money not jobs and people matter to all those who voted this in. Ok so I’m mad yeah,Kyoto treaty,wasn’t passed too much money? Yeah and your SUV using Hypocrites will not care theres $5.00 gas and no “ESLR”on every roof or “BLDP” running your car till thew ARABS control all the OIL or have YOU Americans forgotten that NO “INVN” checking baggage or uderpaid people letting those Terrorists pass like Congress did allowing the TECH’s having jobs here in the first place!So Try Alternative fuels,Recycle,and Conserve water NOW as your kids won’t have much if we allow Congress “Have No Repercussions” ooops sorry that was ,Sadam’s Environmental Terrorism-Your Dead Punk,Arthur Anderson’s paper burning/Peoples stock held un-able to sell hmmm ==greedy punks too!! Well you can always try to find a job as an Immigrant Techworker and get hired here…God Bless America-(9-11) Heroes, And The Constitution.

      • #3399082

        More philosophical issue…

        by techwannabe ·

        In reply to College kids/loans&jobs Lost!

        I think the more fundamental problem is why do we rely so heavily on those utilizing the H-1B program? It is, of course, a supply and demand issue, but why is it that we’re not generating more technology workers with the level of skill and expertise required to do these jobs? I believe the education system is part of the problem. We’re having trouble teaching kids to read. If they can’t read well, how can they do basic math and science? If they can’t do well at basic math and science, how can they advance to the higher levels of math and science required to advance to a college level computer science curriculum? There are certainly other problems that need to be fixed to reduce our dependency on foreign workers, but I think this one is the most basic.

    • #3643782

      Hope they stop the immigration it!

      by dragon725 ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      IT jobs should go to US citizens only – regardless of their ethnicity. I have nothing against people from other nations, however, I do have a problem with them taking our jobs, trashing our economy, and exposing us to security risks.

      This notionof a “major shortage” of skilled IT professionals is bologna!!! There are so many people now competing for jobs, you can’t even get a repsone back that politley gives you the HR middle finger salute. They just ignore you.

      People in some of these economically underdeveloped countries need to stay there and do something to improve their own national economy rather than come here, trash ours, and then go home to live like kings because they racked up serious cash here in the US. I hope they do pass it because on top of that, it is a major security hole!

      I vote, instead of seeking out labor in other countries, we need to advocate cutting the $$$BIG$$$ salaries of some of these executives out there and abolish the HB1 visa BS. This will allow companies to use the savings to bring more qualified US workers intto the market, plus, they could always invest in employees they already have too. Jeez there’s a thought…

      As an example of this stupidity, I work for a corporation that constantly brings in consultants at an extremely high rate from India, yet refuses to send existing (lower paid)employees to further training and education (unless they are backed up against the wall and employees have to be sent). Bad, Bad, Bad…

      Ithink the higher you go up the ladder, the more you become a tard. Nuff’ said.


    • #3399114


      by gnlsn ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      This has always been a scam – in the past, companies would just send existing IT workers to school for new skills – now they just hire from overseas – it is cheaper – there has never been a shortage or programmers – just cheap slave labor – which iswhat the H1B program is – SLAVE LABOR

    • #3399113


      by gnlsn ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      This has always been a scam – in the past, companies would just send existing IT workers to school for new skills – now they just hire from overseas – it is cheaper – there has never been a shortage or programmers – just cheap slave labor – which iswhat the H1B program is – SLAVE LABOR

    • #3399097

      the real deal

      by rdandrade ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      I consulted for a company that was owned by Indians and they brought people over from India. None of them made more than $20k per year without benefits. They were very happy with this though because they were in America. The company loved it too because they billed them out at a much higher rate.

      From what I have seen, abuse exists on a wide scale. There is currently no lack of qualified IT people. I know too many good techies that are out of work. Maybe there was a shortage of qualified ITstaff a few years ago, but it is nothing that training the current staff couldn’t fix.

      This has been a ploy to get cheap labor from the beginning. The big computer consulting firms make big money from this, and use their political clout to get more. It’s a shame.

    • #3399066

      So they want a ban. . .

      by gentlerf ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      I can agree with the DOD plan since I used to be a Civil Service IT worker. I am currently in retraining at a local community college geared towards CCNA, A+ and Net+ certifications. At age 50, I am finding even an entry level position hard to obtain without such certifications. Since I am also a military veteran with reinstatement rights, the current outsourcing of Federal IT jobs is of major concern to me. As far as eliminating the H1B visa program, since the fees are putatively going towardsa training/retraining program, I would disagree with that since I am currently in such a retraining.

      I am certain that some positive balance can be achieved here since I like one of my professors am passionate about technology and have a strong desire to see its growth continue.


    • #3399039

      H1B requirements

      by pmorrow ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      I am working in the USA under the H1B visa.
      There appears to be a lot of misinformation on this thread on the ease of getting the H1B and the “taking away” of positions from qualified US citizens. There are numerous pages on the internet that summarize the requirements (example –
      The H1B visa worker position has to be advertised in the local market and no qualified workers found, before the corporation can apply for the visa. Rate of pay must meet market rates- check your company bulletin board for postings for H1B visas. If anyone within the company or local market applies and is qualified – the H1B will not be approved.
      I will be leaving the county in a few months. Two in-company people will be taking over my position – I have spent two years training them to bring them up to requirements for their positions.
      It will be sad if the reduction of H1Bs results in a lessening of knowledge sharing between companies and countries. If the USA does not allow foreign workers in, the borders in other countries will likely be closed to USA workers also (There are as many USA citizens working in other countries, as there are foreign workers in the USA).

      • #3398889

        Two years in training?

        by generalist ·

        In reply to H1B requirements

        I’m kind of curious as to what type of job would require two years of training for in-house personnel.

        Could you elaborate on the job requirements so that the rest of us will know some of the skill sets involved in such a job? I think it help show that H1Bs like yourself are needed.

    • #3398982

      Don’t make it more difficult than it is

      by grahamengland ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      This is an issue very close to my heart, because I’m on an L1 visa, flying back to London TODAY for our Green Card Interview at the US Embassy. I work for a company that, 3 years ago, closed the doors on its UK branch, hence me moving to the States. We love where we live in Colorado with a passion and couldn’t bear the thought of moving back now, but it’s a very big commitment to move from one country to another, especially when there’s a family involved.
      What has amazed me is the amount of red tape involved in getting the visa and green card. I have a pretty specialized job, I write automated test software (I’ve been doing it for over a decade now, in a very young industry) and have been working in IT for 21 years. Having looked for more people to join us with the same skills here in the States has been really tough. Surely if this can be proven and there is someone who IS qualified from another country it should be a no-brainer to get that person into the company, if they are willing to pay all the attorney and INS costs.
      After having been worn down with three years of paperwork (I kid you not!), I’m very glad to be at the end of it all, and intend to apply for citizenship as soon as I can (in 5 years time). I’m PROUD to be an American and would like to think that my ability to pay American taxes should make me an asset to the country and not a liability.
      I would also challenge the argument against granting work visas – the amount of money it has cost my company in family relocation, plus my salary DEFINITELY doesn’t make me ‘cheap labor’!!

      • #3398890

        Not against H1B, just their exploitation

        by k.dombek ·

        In reply to Don’t make it more difficult than it is

        Graham,et. al;
        As a formerly unemployed IT worker, I am and was not against H1B workers – you had good ones and idiots, same as any other group. The thing that irritated me was their exploitation by the Silicon Valley companies.
        I had a friend who is American, was a student – finished his MSSE with straight A’s – had 10+ years experience. I also had a friend who had immigrated from China, was a student – finished her MSSE with straight A’s – but had no experience.
        A company promised her anH1B, and she took their job, at a salary that seemed huge to her – $14 per hour. (IF you’ve been in the Silicon Valley, you know how LITTLE that buys there – a shared, 1 bedroom apartment can cost 1,200 per month or more).
        Him? He’s working at a Cigarettes Cheaper to support his family.
        I moved out of California to get a job – 2nd generation and San Francisco born though I am.

        Seems to me we’ve all been exploited.

    • #3398929

      Any country owes 1st priority to its own

      by captxunderpants ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      Only when there is 100% employment for US citizens, should a non-US citizen be given a job here. Period.
      This should be a constitutional amendment.
      I completely support emigrants coming to US for work, if their intention is to be US citizen and become part of the US. After all, that is how all of us came here, anyway. Even “native” Americans crossed Bering straight from Asia looking for something better (else why in hell would you cross Bering straight?? :-D)
      But to hire a non-US citizen claiming that “we can’t find a US citizen to fit that job” is a steaming load of offal.

      • #3398364

        I agree

        by stoobydo ·

        In reply to Any country owes 1st priority to its own

        Although we’ll never be able to acheive 100% employment due to the few that like their welfare, I agree with your position. I’m tired of seeing the US bail out everyone else while we have children starving in this country, people out of work, etc.

      • #3398277

        IT has a 15% Unemployment Rate

        by alcurnow ·

        In reply to Any country owes 1st priority to its own

        Due, to the current economic conditions, we should eliminate the Foreign Visa program and re-evaluate it
        when there is economic prosperity.

        I have nothing against foreign woekers, but these are bad times. How can H1-B visas be justified with a 15% IT unemployment rate.

    • #3398844

      Joint venture w/off-shore dev groups

      by cfernan ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      I’ve been involved in the”body shop” environment, and have seen the benefits and complications that H-1 can bring. We had eliminated the costs and complications associated with H-1, by finding a strong off-shore development house, currently operating and profitable, with enough diversity to handle the myriad of multi-platform, multi-OS, and multi-app experience to meet our global location and mobil environment, currently and for all of our future needs. We gain the benefit of low cost development and an increased production time deliverable, typical to that of the off-shore model, without all the complications and initial additional costs of H-1. We stay cutting edge, for less than a third of the cost domestically. We have the best of both worlds. It was so successful, it became an offshoot business for us.

    • #3398748


      by fluxit ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      First off, foreign workers are only attractive because they are cheap and not necessarily highly skilled. Many in India learn to code and become engineers. That does not make them genius.

      Second off, foreign workers are a political thing. In thepast, the Government permitted foreign workers in the US as a means to spread Democracy and Western culture. You should note that not as many Americans work abroad as foreigner work here!

      Third, I have hired these people and worked closely with them. On a human level they most often are great people and work well with others.

      I work in Technology with the DoD. I have not heard this claim. Hiring is always based on your ability to obtain a security clearance. In the most sensitive positions foreigns simply do not meet the criteria to obtain the job. So the issue is already under control to some extent. Their are foreign nationales who work with me but they are under the auspices of foreign disclosure of which information access is already limited.

      • #3398457

        USAREUR and Immigration

        by guruofdos ·

        In reply to FOREIGN WORKERS

        The US Army in Germany are obliged under the regulations for them being over there to employ a certain percentage of local labour. Working for a British company responsible for much of the US Army Training Equipments in the field in Germany. I have clearance from both UK MOD and USAREUR to work on just about any Army location in Germany and Italy and the UK…..with exception of nuclear bases.

        I also married an American woman, and we had to decide where to settle. I was all for the USA and she wanted to live in England. What decided it for us was the system. To apply as a spouse of a US citizen takes a lot of paperwork and a lot of money. Just about every INS form has a filing fee and this can start at a few hundred US$ and go right up to $000’s. The whole procedure can take years and even then, the spouse or family have to agree to ‘sponsor’ you for a period of 10 years….and even after that you are not safe!! H1B’s are virtually non-existant now so that angle is ruled out….andthe Green Card Lottery allows Cubans, Mexicans, Russians, Puerto Ricans et al in, but seems to rule out the UK.

        In the end we settled in England. The Home Office take their time processing applications, but there are NO fees!!! Just the cost of the postage to send off the paperwork. The whole process for my wife to become settled and resident here took just 7 months, and 5 months of that was because of a backlog of ‘illegal immigrants’. Oh, and no need for a work permit or green card either!! Again…..that means more form filling and expense over there. You don’t need to worry about keeping the unwanted out…..those who ARE working for the good of the US (indirectly) are put off by the time and the cost and the aggravation!!!!

        • #3404828

          Different Situation

          by fluxit ·

          In reply to USAREUR and Immigration

          You are attempting to become a citizen and even at that you are limited in the level you can attain. Security clearances are stratified and many 1st generation immigrants hold secret and below. Some hold higher clearances because they possess some specialty needed. But then again it is compartmentalized.

          The biggest concern I see is that easter eggs in code or knowledge of the architectures are at risk for exposure of vulnerabilities from someone who is not loyal to the United States – a spy.

          However, the critieria to be a subversive or spy does not require that you are an immigrant. Walker was a Navy spy and not naturalized. Most do it for money, women, and cars. Few do it for principle.

    • #3398401

      A different view.

      by rsloan ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      It is the same old “Catch 22”! There are not enough High Tech US Citizens to fill the jobs, but industry doesnt force the University and College System to recruit and train more. Educational Institutions are driven by the bottom line and industry tells them where the future is going. The more Foreign Talent we, as a country bring in, the less the need to train our own. If jobs are being filled by non-US Citizens then the need to recruit and train at the college level no longer is a profitable program and the education dollars and efforts are directed to different fields.

    • #3398366

      The Space Race versus Today

      by stoobydo ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      During the 60s when the US was falling behind in the race to space, the US government actually paid for people to become “rocket scientists” due to the shortage. Today the US tries to bail all these nations out of their economic perils. If we have ashortage, then repeat the program. It apparently worked – we got to the moon! Blame is also on the corporations for the shortage. Every company I have worked for has been afraid to pay for training and certs. They are afraid the worker will pick upnew skills and move on. Anyway, I vote to lower the quota and take care of our own unemployement problem.

    • #3398361

      There ARE American workers…

      by andyjmoon ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      We have Americans who would be more than happy to work in the high-tech industries if they could get a company to hire them. I personally know 5 people with 25 years of collective IT experience who cannot find jobs. As an educator, I personally trained hundreds of people who later were unable to find work as the IT departments require experience and won’t hire entry level people. The last 2 IT job fairs I attended required people to have at least a year of experience to even enter the fair.As long as we admit to this country hundreds of thousands of people who are willing to work for very low pay, we will continue to have corporations clamoring to feed at the high tech visa trough.

      • #3404671

        Reply To: Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

        by mrafrohead ·

        In reply to There ARE American workers…

        That hits the nail right on the head. Goes to show you who really runs this country… It’s definately not the politicians. It’s the almighty dollar…

        That’s exactly why when we vote on something in this country it can be overthrown if it doesn’t fit the needs of those who pay the highest amount to the right people…

        Just look at our President…

    • #3398232

      my 3 cents

      by krylenam ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      I am about to be laid off after 2 years with my company and currently the unemployment rate in my state is close to 9%. I have watched my collegues searching for employment and like myself, they are not getting many calls for interviews. It makes me wonder, if there is such an IT shortage, why is it becoming increasingly more difficult for IT workers to get jobs? While I feel that when there is a verifiable shortage in some IT areas, issuing a H1-B visa is appropriate, I do feel that the program has been abused by some. We are at War right now and our IT structure is crucial to the nations continued growth. If we allow our infrastruture to be compromised, the repercussions could be far worse than a comapny hiring americans for a few dollars more. The DOD should place a temporary ban while we are at war. We have already seen how INS can let a passport for a terrorist “slip by”. Can we really risk that?

    • #3400265

      I was an H1-B worker

      by skalickym ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      There are plenty of takes on this subject but at the end of the day it comes down to the company that is doing the hiring. I worked for a large US company for 2 years that had many H1-B workers of which I was one. They came from many countries. My overriding feeling was that many of these were hired as cheap labor.
      However there were many who were also hired for expertise. In my case, there is no way I would have been cheaper than a US citizen. I had years of experience in a particular area that this company required and they went to the trouble of hiring me for quite a bit of money. I would like to think I returned on their investment in me considerably.
      As I see it, you don’t want to throw the baby out with the bath water.
      Sure, youwant to eliminate cheap offshore labor which may not do a better (or in the end cheaper) job. But on the other hand it would be foolish to eliminate access to IT experts that may prove beneficial for bridging knowledge gaps.

      Just my $0.02 worth

      • #3400124

        zoom out and use history…

        by old and tired.. ·

        In reply to I was an H1-B worker

        Unfortunately for all of us, history has a lesson, especially here in the US.
        Consumers demand “cheap”…whether they are individuals, businesses, organizations or whatever..
        Look at electronics, or automobiles, or imaging…whichever sector one looks at, that’s what drives enterprises….deliver product (or output/service/whatever), a lower price point.
        IT has reached a plateau in terms of sector maturity, and commoditization of it’s offering. Ergo.. we’re going to see declines in employment in the US, and a shift overseas. For those of us with the time, inclination and fortitude, this means retraining for oneof the “newer” market sectors… for the rest, it’s competing for lower wage jobs in IT.
        If you want a really radical example…check agriculture, or footwear, or garments/textiles… over time, higher output has been acheived by fewer people with the means of output changing from 90% + local US to 5% local US.

      • #3399954

        Skills vs Cheap Labor

        by generalist ·

        In reply to I was an H1-B worker

        I would like to thank you for your response because it provides useful data from the point of view of an H1B. While the data isn’t as ‘hard’ as I would like, it seems reasonable. As you pointed out, it comes down to the company doing the hiring.
        I like the fact that the data covers both the good and the bad side of the H1B program. I’m all for bringing in experts like yourself to bridge the technology gaps because that is what the H1B program is all about.

        At the same time, using the H1B program to bring in cheap labor violates both the spirit and the legal requirements of the program. Unfortunately, I’m not sure how you could prove that people are being brought in as cheap labor.

        Maybe H1B’s should be paid so-called fair market value PLUS a fifty or more percent premium in addition to full benefits. That would be quite appropriate from a skill demand standpoint. After all, if the demand is there, the H1B deserves the extra pay according to simple market forces.

        Thispremium would also shoot down complaints that H1Bs are hired for cheap labor.

    • #3399850

      If you’re not American – GET OUT!!!!!

      by mrafrohead ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      If you are not an American and have NO desire at all of becoming one, you have no business being in our country to work.

      We need to keep our jobs for our American’s that are unemployed due to the market and stop giving them to foreigners.

      Ifthe government needs to use some lame excuse citing national security, then so be it, but in my opinion it should have been done a long time ago.

      Our country is greatly in need of support and help, and it is about time that we start to take care of number ONE instead of helping out everyone else and neglecting our own!!!



      • #3399839

        Reply To: Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

        by mrafrohead ·

        In reply to If you’re not American – GET OUT!!!!!

        This also includes students here to learn, and just plain immigrant workers.

        After reading a few of these posts I figured I had better just include all of this now, since I know some of you are going to be calling me a “racist”. I figure I better get it all in now;) The funny thing is it has nothing to do with race.

        How many American’s do you see running to other countries for education or for jobs??? Not too many, because this IS the best place to get educated and work.

        But it istime for us to concentrate on taking care of our own NOW!!! It is time for us to spend our money HERE NOW!!! It is time for us to stop holding up the rest of the world and help us. You can’t help others if you can’t help yourself. If America keeps on letting in all of the foreigners for these jobs it is going to drag us all down the toilet and we will end up being the very same place that all of the foreigners are fleeing.


        • #3404871


          by james r linn ·

          In reply to Reply To: Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

          For the record, I am Canadian, and I’ve spent considerable time in the US, and no, I don’t see this as a prevalent American attitude.

          I’ve also been educated in Canadian Universities, and seen lots of Americans attending school in Canada, and teaching in them. I think the whole point of University os to be exposed to alot of different perspectives and so I didn’t mind at all having foreign professors.

          I’ve also worked with multinational firms, where we had many project teams that spanned the border. Of course we could have built a credible team in Canada by hiring and training, but we might have had to lay off US workers to do so, so it made more sense to make use of the resources we have instead of training new ones.

          The point is that unless you are against Americans working abroad, then you are hypocritical.

          All of us in North America are immigrants. Granted that the Native Americans preceded us by thousands of years. Neither of our countries would be what they are today without immigration. Its pretty petty to say, that may have been alright a century ago, but now I want to protect whats mine.

          I’m not worried about a reasonable amount of immigration – I’ve seen the positive effects on cities like Toronto whichhave come alive in the past 50 years, due to immigration.

          When you focus on jobs you forget that immigrants are also consumers and taxpayers as well. If you want to pick out the economic dead zones in North America, look at the areas where thereare few immigrants and no population growth.

          I don’t deny the need for immigration laws and rules, I support them. But we can’t just shut off the taps.


        • #3404811

          Well said, Mr. Linn

          by road-dog ·

          In reply to Xenophobia

          This generalized “Us vs Them” bend that this argument has taken has failed to address the contributions of H1-b and immigration.

          I believe that the rules need to be constructed and enforced to foster an environment where American workers are given the best chance and room is made for industry to avail itself of offshore labor if necessary.

          If regulations don’t make sense for this country, then they don’t make sense at all. The sane option is to allow H1b and educational visas but only at a manageable level.

        • #3404680

          Reply To: Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

          by mrafrohead ·

          In reply to Xenophobia

          I am against Americans working abroad. If we go somewhere for a week or two to make some kind of adjustment to something that we made or are offering support that is one thing. But to pack up and move out of your homeland is abandonment.

          If youdon’t like this country enough to work in it and live in it, then you shouldn’t call yourself an American!!!

          This falls along the line with me down to where you see all of these people driving around with signs on their cars that say so and so pride, this pride and that pride. What ever happened to American pride??? What is so wrong with being proud of what you are when you’re here??? An American!!! People are always knocking it that live here, yet they won’t go anywhere else. It’s absolutely ridiculous.

          As you can tell, this is a VERY deeply rooted thing with me. I believe in America down to my bones and I have a hard time when I hear of our people having a hard time, while we are helping out every one else and their grandma’s. But then ignoring our own people.

          So I hope that this helps to explain my opinion a little better.


      • #3404742

        Amazed at the Attitude

        by sheilau ·

        In reply to If you’re not American – GET OUT!!!!!

        First, let me say that I too am a “proud American”. I come from a military family, and my husband is Navy. I still salute the flag, and put my hand over my heart when the anthem plays. HOWEVER… ancestors come from Germany, Canada, France, Ireland… see the pattern. By placing a blanket statement of “If you’re not American, get out” over this entire situation, you spit on everything that this country was founded on. True, there are many companies that are criminal in attempting to hire foreign workers to avoid paying US Citizens. Not all companies practice this, however, and foreign workers are not always the reason that US workers are unemployed. To make that global statement is indeed racist. Some people are unemployedbecause they’re just too darn lazy to work, and it’s convenient for them to blame this on someone who wasn’t born here. The fact that you are born in the US does not give you the right to sit back and whine about how the country should be taking care of you. The last time I looked, the land of opportunity works quite well in your favor if you’re willing to get off your butt and do something about it.

        • #3404676

          Reply To: Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

          by mrafrohead ·

          In reply to Amazed at the Attitude

          The funny thing is this…

          My father is in the military, so you can’t give me any of this shit about I’m racist and I need to get off of my lazy butt.. I have a very nice job doing what I like. I don’t sit back and whine about things, I handlemy business…

          My dad went to WAR and fought for this country more than once. My heritage comes from other countries also. As does EVERYONE!!!

          My point is that we live here NOW and we need to take care of ourselves NOW!!!!

          Cutting out immigrants that have no interest in becoming Americans is a positive thing for our country in my opinion. But then again, it is MY opinion. It appears that I am definately in the minority here, but that is okay with me.

          And my final note… Justbecause someone is too lazy to work, doesn’t mean that they are blaming other people. I’m not blaming anybody for anything. What I am saying is that we need to take care of ourselves. It’s time to stop giving handouts to everybody. As we keep giving these handouts, it is hurting us. You can bet your ass that as soon as we are done blowing up Afghanistan that we will go right back over there and spend OUR tax dollars to fix their mess that they caused. Watch and see. Just like we did in Korea, Japan, Germany, etc…


    • #3404753

      Anyone seen this article?

      by sraun_work ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      I ran across this article recently – the group where it came up has been unable to find a good rebuttal of any kind, let alone a serious point-by-point one!

      I’m currently tending to ‘The IT talent shortage is purely in the minds of Management andHuman Resources’.

      Debunking the Myth of a Desperate Software Labor Shortage

      Testimony to the U.S. House Judiciary Committee
      Subcommittee on Immigration

      Dr. Norman Matloff

      Department ofComputer Science
      University of California at Davis
      Davis, CA 95616
      (530) 752-1953
      ?1998, 1999, 2000, 2001
      Presented April 21, 1998; updated February 4, 2002

    • #3404693

      There is no perfect solution

      by tomsal ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      There is no perfect solution to this problem.

      Whenever you are talking about such large numbers of people you’ll never, read N-E-V-E-R find a perfect solution to satisfy all.

      Of all the many arguments mand throughout these posts I most agree, with the post written by Mr. James Linn.

      He’s right. North America wouldn’t be what it is (both good and bad) if it weren’t for immigration. As ugly as the concept is for some to take it — immigration, dare I say, is essential.

      Again, re-iterating views that were already expressed, I do think it currently is being poorly managed. And no, of course “just anyone” shouldn’t be able to just easily immigrate – into America or any other country in the world. It’s just logical and common sense.
      You don’t want to admit criminals fleeing prosecution (let alone criminals in general), or allow someone carrying a deadly disease into the country for example. There must be screening processes.

      I’ve no problem with immigrants coming to this country as long as they play by the rules. They need to pay taxes let all of us who were born on American soil and lived here our whole lives as American citizens. They need to obey by the same laws and they shouldn’t get special treatment in any federal programs and educational institutions.

      Which I’m surprised no one brought to light – I’m not liking the special treatment like tax deferred status for example for foreigners who establish buisnesses here. I don’t like that.

      A more immediate and frustration problem of this country to me is our welfare system. If you want to get angry at a system – how about the EXTREMELY ABUSED welfare system.

      That’s more an issue than immigration.

    • #3404691

      There is no perfect solution

      by tomsal ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      There is no perfect solution to this problem.

      Whenever you are talking about such large numbers of people you’ll never, read N-E-V-E-R find a perfect solution to satisfy all.

      Of all the many arguments mand throughout these posts I most agree, with the post written by Mr. James Linn.

      He’s right. North America wouldn’t be what it is (both good and bad) if it weren’t for immigration. As ugly as the concept is for some to take it — immigration, dare I say, is essential.

      Again, re-iterating views that were already expressed, I do think it currently is being poorly managed. And no, of course “just anyone” shouldn’t be able to just easily immigrate – into America or any other country in the world. It’s just logical and common sense.
      You don’t want to admit criminals fleeing prosecution (let alone criminals in general), or allow someone carrying a deadly disease into the country for example. There must be screening processes.

      I’ve no problem with immigrants coming to this country as long as they play by the rules. They need to pay taxes let all of us who were born on American soil and lived here our whole lives as American citizens. They need to obey by the same laws and they shouldn’t get special treatment in any federal programs and educational institutions.

      Which I’m surprised no one brought to light – I’m not liking the special treatment like tax deferred status for example for foreigners who establish buisnesses here. I don’t like that.

      A more immediate and frustration problem of this country to me is our welfare system. If you want to get angry at a system – how about the EXTREMELY ABUSED welfare system.

      That’s more an issue than immigration.

      • #3404673

        Reply To: Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

        by mrafrohead ·

        In reply to There is no perfect solution

        Here’s my two cents on the welfare system. And this one really gets under my skin also…

        Once I got laid off of a job. So I applied for Food Stamps while I was in search of a job. I was being paid $124.00 a week on unemployment which obviously won’t even cover rent. I had a pregnant wife at the time.

        I was denied food stamps (which is welfare) because I made too much money. The 124 dollars. Yet I was the only person in the room that even spoke English that was applying. That was awful. Here I was asking for help from my Government because of a bad spot I was in and I was denied, when all of these people that weren’t even from here were getting benefits, food and money just to be a “guest” here. They didn’t even speak english and we are paying our tax dollars for translaters.

        I can say this. Whenever we traveled to a different country when my father was on tour, we made damn well and sure that we learned the language. We never expected anyone to conform to us when we are a guest in THEIR country!!!

        So I hope that that sheds a little light for those of you that had any questions about that also…;)


        • #3402176

          I hear you man!

          by tomsal ·

          In reply to Reply To: Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

          You got it man. I hear you loud and clear. It “gets my goat” as well.

          One of my brothers lives in the same city as my work is located in, like most towns/cities there is a “nicer side and not as nice side”. Our company is on the “nicer side”.

          Anyway where my bro lives there are TONS of waste of space type of people who live off the welfare system. They have no goals, no aspirations (and most of them don’t even have valid reasons for NOT work – like legitimate health/medical reasons). You see in this city there is a VERY high teen pregnancy rate as well as single parent rate.

          I visit my brother and all I see are tons of young (very young) mothers and loser guys who call their selfs unemployed (I call them bums) who suck off the welfare system like a parasite – while they are laughing and hanging out and partying all day, all night AND then some even have the nerve to make jokes about it too. Some say “YES I get paid today”….Paid?! They are referring to their welfare check is due to arrive!

          Oh man I could go on forever on this topic…lol.

    • #3401761

      Cheap Labor & Claimed Experience

      by theseacher ·

      In reply to Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

      In a company I worked at last year, we had an
      H1-B engineer in our group, other groups had many more H1-Bs. Anyway this H1-B in our group was being paid US$400 to $600 a week less than the American workers.

      Now if you multiply that by say 100 you can see why companies prefer to hire H1-Bs.

      And a question that comes to mind is, where do these workers aquire all the claimed experience. They come from third world countries that don’t have the technology they claim to have worked with.

      About two years ago the American embassy in India complained that they were unable to varify 55% of the education and experience claimed by the H1-B applicants. A congressman queried the US Dept of Labor on this but his questions went unanswered.

      Kudos for Eastman-Kodak. They have said they will not hire any H1-Bs because there are more than enough Americans that can be trained for the available jobs. And that includes older American workers.

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