Feds want to stop IT immigrant programs

Fact is those box cutters were not h1bs ... they were on student visas.

Fact is majority of h1b's are from India and India has been in this fight against islamic millitants for a much longer period than you have come to know about them.

Fact is in this global economy you cannot stay isolated and it is all demand and supply.

Fact is if you still do not want to see reason and just hate then you are better off without being given any responsibility.

by wilising Mar 19, 2002

I have to agree with you 100 percent Jeff. One point I would like to add.

During the Y2K effort there was a great need to pull resources from where ever they could be gotten. Many of those additional resources where H1B visa holders. I thought those were temporary visas? Many of the holders I used to work with are still here working. How long is Tempory?

by xpertdragon Mar 11, 2002

I myself, have worked as an I.T. Support Technician in my current position for 6+ months now, and used to have to travel to Juarez, Mexico often. The organization that I work for has established a manufacturing plant only 15 minutes on the other side of the border. The process for me personally, was to obtain a 1 month work/consulting permit to head down into a working environment in Mexico. This process only required proof of U.S. Citizenship with proper I.D. and your Birth Cirtificate. Ialso realize that the issue at hand is Immigant Work Visas for those that are in the Technology field, and often need to commute to the U.S. to work.

I think in many cases, there are those I.T. professionals that come to work at our U.S. locations with little or no Visa problems at all. I think this issue has to factors to it: 1.) It all depends on your past application process or processes for Work Visas in the past. There are different time periods that you can establish a work Visa in the United States for, and the Department of Defense just may now be stepping up on screening processes that put up a red flag on those immigrants applying for Work Visas with a greater amount of time between expiration periods.

Many of us already know, that We live in a completely different and paranoid world since September 11th, and you will continue to hear about the overly exposed topic of 9/11 and all the concerns it has created for at least the next 5 years of all our lives.

In Conclusion, I think those applying for Work Visas for the FIRST time, will have the most problems and face a new screening system compared to those that have successfuly obtained Work Visas for the past couple years to head over to the U.S. for company work. Doesn't matter if they are coming from Mexico, Canada or Cuba.

Paul M. Chavez

by irv Mar 11, 2002

4 or 5 years ago I became aware that a vendor whose name stats with "I" was bringing in coding "consultants" from Checknea for 3 or 4 months and then rotating them home. Appears that they were paying a "Consulting" firm a flat fee for services and these "consultants" would come here for several months on a business visa and then return to their homeland. I'm not nocking their intellegence but we had capable people here but not at the low rate these people were being paid by their "consulting" firm employers.

by fluxit Mar 11, 2002

Numerous countries around the world export thier labor since the durable goods are minimal to export. Predominantly these countries are the Phillipines, India, Pakistan, Borneo, former Soviet Block states and England. Many more export labor but these have a very high degree. Often they send they earning home to family there who are struggling to make ends meet.

The problem is that this is a loop hole and vulnerability for 'unlawful combatants' or terrorist to gain access to our system/society and attack from within. We need to close it up and manage it. In the past the US used immigrnat in a variety of political ways. One was to spread the taste of democracy to everywhere. Another was to pad the electorate with liberal voters. We saw this under the Clinton administration when the gates were opened wide.

I know these things as I used to work for a cruise line as well as abroad elsewhere. Nearly every employee was foreign except me. Go to Disney how many foreigners are there?Another part of the puzzle is that Americans do not want to do dirty work or low pay so others are brought in for that purpose.

by garion11 Mar 11, 2002

First time I have heard of this. Well, DOD has my full support. Most of them come from India, Pakistan, or the Middle East. Its sad, a few rotten apples can ruin a whole bunch?!?...so on so forth, but the freedom of a nation (which is more important) shouldn't be compromised. Until those people learn to change their own country first, they shouldn't be allowed in. Its too bad though, there are some brilliant people in the IT industry around the world, which the U.S. companies can benefit from greatly. If anything, India is probably the closest to U.S. as a technology partner. Well, whatever happens, happens!

by road-dog Mar 11, 2002

Take it easy on the generalizations. I would not like to be caught between a Hindu and a Muslim. There are lots of different peoples there.

The hijackers involved in 9-11 were here predominantly on STUDENT visas, not H1-B. The whole administration covering immigration and temporary visas for whatever purpose needs an enema.

Absolutely, security comes first. Immigration needs to be temporarily closed and INS needs to get a handle on the foreigners who are already here. We need to separate the sheep from the wolves.

...Then we can get on with the extremely important business of hating the FRENCH!

by garion11 Mar 12, 2002

How do we do that? ....lol. We certainly can't take out an ad saying..."if you are a terrorist please don't apply...". Like I said, a few rotten apples ruin a whole bunch....blah, blah...

My point is until those people meaning everyone that comes from that area (aka, middle east, India, Pakistan, whatever else) shouldn't be allowed in, period. Its a shame, but...we have to generalize to find those wolves..meaning we have to assume everyone is a wolf. Sadly there is no other way at this point.

I can't even trust the women or children at this point. Dude, I wouldn't even trust their pets.

by rrgilmore_2001 Mar 13, 2002

I tell you what INS can't even handle the borders
we have let alone handle the immagrants comming from the Hindu and a Muslim (as you put it ) region.
I do not know what they are going to do, because if some terriost get thier hand on top secret data
from the pentagon, because some under paid INS agent did not do thier job right.
Well you can see where I AM GOING WITH THIS!

I do not think it is a good Idea to let anyone in without a full investigation at there cost not ours.

If this means they have to go into some kind of camp untill they are cleared.
If this means we can only let so many in a year.

If we can prevent anther 9-11-2001 from happening again.

I am all for it.

by irv Mar 11, 2002

It's about time that someone limited this program. It is nothing but a cop out for cheap labor for companies. If "qualification" is the argument then companies need to start "growing their own" instead of using the existing employees up and then throwing them away. Companies used to do that and then write it off as a cost of doing business, but maybe there is no tax break anymore?

by bobmatch Mar 12, 2002

With lots of tec workers out looking for a job, now is the best time to limit immigrant visas. It seems to me the need for visas just aren't needed.

by mgelman Mar 12, 2002

From what I read in the article, DOD is talking about limiting access to *DOD* projects -- which they already do now!

Nothing about wider sanctions or closing down the H1-B program. Most IT work done in the commercial world doesn't have national security implications.

It does have security implications. So does owning a Dunkin Donuts, washing a car, working in the U.S. The thing is, it boils down to money. The terrorists need financing. What is the richest country in the world? Exactly.

They work here (in IT or whatever), send the money back to their overseas accounts...and hallelleuah.

One of the terrorists involved in September 11th owned a Dunkin Donuts. Go figure. So we start at the technology side and move down and flush the rats away in the process.

by binaryvision Mar 16, 2002

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

by rrgilmore_2001 Mar 13, 2002

Does that include airlines?
Does that include banks? Does that include credit card companies?
Does that include oil and gas companies?
Oh ya! Headlines read toluene accident.
Computer operated valve fails kills thousands.
Ya know there are distilleries in LA and the SF bay area.
Hers anther one is you don't like that one computer operated switch for railroad fails.
Train derails CARRING NUCLIER WAIST.
YA I know the switch for the railroad is a little heavy.

money, period. It doesn't matter what industry they are screwing around in, the money gets transported back into their web.

Remember this, money rules the world, and whoever controls money, controls the world. Those people are a bunch of leeches, its a funny thing, but they need us for their own survival (when was the last time you had money pouring out of Afghans). If we reconginze their need we are already 1 step ahead of them. Get it?

by packratt Mar 13, 2002

Let us look at it this way, what did the terrorists target?

The pentagon, so there is an argument to protect sensitive government data.

But, they also deliberately damaged the economy with the attack on the trade center...

But it seems thacorporate America is unconcerned about being vulnerable whereas the government does much to protect itself... Maybe that's because executives spend more time on the golf courses and don't worry about risking their lives in the office buildings so long as they save a dollar for their own pocket at our expence.

Yet, there is a more subtle aspect to why the IT industry should be considered a defense industry... What do you think the government uses for it's systems? Haven't you seen the software that is restricted from export?

It is funny though, how government is so willing to defend itself at any cost but unwilling to protect the people who they are supposed to serve.

http://www.zazona.com/LCA-Data/

why so many executives died in the 11th attack. They must have had a golf course on the roof of one of the buildings.

by justin.hess Mar 12, 2002

There are too many pepole in the IT industry that are american that are out of work. Why, becuase as IT industry is at it's low right now. There are people who come over on "work visa's" that take those job's. Why because everyything boils down to the all mighty dollar.

by mpboro Mar 13, 2002

As far as i`m concerned, i think this step will reduce the risks but will never eliminate it, because there are so many "John Walker Lindh" American citizens working in IT Industry in the USA. The most important thing would be to consider the economics of the country and the repucursions of this significant move.The US is the worlds #1 country in almost everything and should never be intimidated by thugs. The people who should not even be allowed to enter the USA are well known and should be barred for ever, espcially the "saddam Hussein" and the likes.

by aldanatech Mar 19, 2002

If the Feds think stopping IT immigrants will make the country safe, they're wrong. If they do that, who can they make the country safe by more national security issue people such as the the "Unibomber", Timothy McVeigh and even "John Walker"?

IT immigrants are people that want to prosper in their field and work hard towards a better future for the country. They have no time to think about any related terrorist attempt. Also, if they cannot work in government organizations, the'll just lookelsewhere in the field.

I think that current background checks procedures are enough to hire trustworthy non-citizen IT professionals.

by bgjkl Mar 13, 2002

I do not agree that only a small amount of companies do this, at least in the NorthEast. I am a member of several user groups, and I see more than less companies doing this.

The trend now is not to train employees in new technology anymore, but to use them up, throw them away, and replace them with new technology folks.

Lack of jobs + boom of IT immigration is allowing the companies to do this. My last company had more non-citizens than citizens working in IT. They displaced American citizens in at least 45 of the positions. About 80 positions in one US city, in one company.

There are more ways to destroy the country than with bombs. Economic problems can be worse, and this trend is driving saleries down, and flooding an already wet market.

It is a continuing threat to the future of being able to make a reasonable wage and stay employed in IT.

More immigration at this point can only mean

by hooobeee Mar 13, 2002

Learn the statistics of H-1B visa applications.
2001 was a record year for these "labor condition
applications"

I lost my IT job in 2001.
I am an American.

by schwagerjt Mar 14, 2002

I feel your pain. I am a veteran and lost my job in the IT sector one week after receiving two awards for my "out of the box" contributions.

The Canadian company I worked for laid off 1/2 its workers (45,000 worldwide). I was nailed on the last round. Here in the U.S., the composition is still about 50% H-1B visa workers. I'm sure that to the bean counters I was simply a cost cutting measure.

I do not beleive that any company canlegally replace 50 percent of their work force with immigrants. If they have done so then it is illegal (even in the existing laws) and I would suspect you were probably working in an apple picking farm rather than a IT company.

by mukherjeen Mar 13, 2002

Being a h1b worker, I know the pros and cons. Many of us have come to US not just to make more money, but to seek better opportunities, especially related to their careers. I can certainly say that for myself.

If the Fed wants to stop immigrant workers in IT and keep those jobs only for US citizens, what would happen to the thousands of permanent residents who are not yet citizens and who are in high-tech areas ? The number of H1B's can be reduced, but I don't think it would be right to eliminate it fully. What would happen to existing H1B workers ?
I conduct technical interviews for the company I work for. I have see people failing miserably in the interviews. Why would a company hire such people if one finds a better one even thoughhe is on H1?

by packratt Mar 13, 2002

I would perform interviews and my employer would hire H1Bs even though they were worse in interviews than the American counterparts or had horrible resumes...

Sure, that may not be indicative of all applicants from overseas, I've met many an intelligent person who may be AS GOOD AS an American techie. But I still don't get the superiority complex some people have just because they were lucky enough to get to come over to America. That smug sense of being better than others is often unjustified.

by schwagerjt Mar 14, 2002

Yeah that's been my experience also.

Try to nail them down and get them to make a decision and they beat around the bush. You never get a straight answer. It's a cultural thing.

The best coders in our shop were not the H-1B guys. They provided the cheap coding gruntwork. Their code often had to be tweaked by others more knowledgeable to get it working.

I certainly don't feel any sense of being somehow inferior mentally to them. They just happen to come a dime a dozen.

by generalist Mar 15, 2002

I sometimes wonder about technical interviews.

It is fairly easy to unintentionally create a technical interview that is heavily biased towards being able to parrot back technically correct answers about the 'parts' of a topic without truly testing the competence of the person being interviewed.

If your questions resemble something out of a technical 'Trivial Pursuit' game, you may have problems. This could select for somebody who knows the names of ALL the 'parts' but lacks the skill to put them together into a usable application. It can also eliminate those who are very competent at putting together the 20% of the 'parts' that make up 99% of the application.

Even if you are able to eliminate this bias, there are always the social 'factors' of the interview. If there are any racial/cultural differences between the interviewer and the interviewee, bias may be introduced. As a result, a more competent interviewee who is a lot different than the interviewer may lose out to a slightly less competent interviewee who is less different.

When this bias is intentional, it is called racism. But when it is subliminal, it is simple human nature.

by rpisaneschi Mar 15, 2002

Lets be honest here, the reason you have a Job in OUR country is because we have incompetent Politicians that are on the take not becuase your more competent than we are.
H-1B is simply a welfare program for wealthy campaign contributors that should be ended.
You people earn money here, go to your homeland for a month every year, and haul all the money back their.
Your SMUG comments about how technically competent you are, please get over it, any idiot can conduct an interview.
Conducting an Interview is like watching Jeapordy, the game is only hard for those without the answers in there hands.
Americans need to realize the depth to which money has corrupted Congress, and act accordingly at the ballot box Nov. 7. They also should lobby members of Congress to vote against the H-1B visa legislation.

by danielgalassi Mar 17, 2002

I am Argentian, and my country has been invaded by people of Chile and Bolivia. They and our politics "fired" many Argentinian workers because the workers of Bolivia are C H E A P E R.
U.S.A. MUST avoid at all cost give more H1B visas.

by binaryvision Mar 16, 2002

Your grammar sucks man, why would an American firm want to hire you for a communications position? only because your a lot cheaper than paying our own U.S. person.

by thisisfun Mar 17, 2002

mukherjeen@yahoo.com my man....do not let the fact that you take tech interviews fool you into believing you are something special. Trust me you are not. Believe it or not I happen to be one of the many H1B workers just like you.

mukherjeen@yahoo.com please put yourself in the shoes of american citizens...what if u were in India earning well and this pakistani or bangladeshi dude walks in and takes your job for half the rate....bet you would not like it. Would you?

The frustration I see vented by many on this discussion is "sometimes" quite valid. USA is going through a recession...many tech workers got laid off (incl h1b's). But with this climate it is more important for this country to look after its own rather than you and me....life is tough.

A temporary reduction (freeze whatever) in giving new H1B's should be done. Once things improve then definitly the doors will open again. Also a better method to find really qualified applicants should be devised by INS rather than bringing in a bunch of fresh college recruits and selling them here as "experienced" techies. Even educational qualifications are sometimes faked by many candidates.

Also to all my other "friends" on this discussion forum. H1B's are but a small part of the immigration/job scene. What about the "thousands" of other non-tech workers who come in (mostly illegally) and take away much more jobs then me and my other h1b colleages take away. There was a move to grant them a blanket amnesty and grantall of them green cards (not anymore:) I guess they do not matter to you all cause they did not affect your jobs or salaries.

by dragon725 Apr 26, 2002

Very simple, go home and help your own bad economy with your technically superior selves and stop ruining ours!

I too am tired of the smug, snotty, and arrogant treatment that I receive from overseas HB1 consultants. You aren't as good as you think you are. Why do you say that?...If you were, then you would be able to pull your own country out of the hole that it's in and would not even need to come here. D&^$ politians!

-D

by grahamengland May 14, 2002

I left England to come to USA for two reasons. Firstly I've been made redundant from EIGHT jobs in 21 years in the IT industry (never once due to my performance) and frankly I'd had enough. Secondly I came here to get away from racism and stereotyping. Seems from your comment that I've only achieved ONE of my goals.

by hooobeee Mar 13, 2002

The H-1B program is a type of indentured labor.
Such a program should be abolished.

So should be capitalism and free market!!

by garion11 Mar 17, 2002

Free Market/Capitalism is why you are able to post on this site, dude. Why don't crawl back into your dark hole from which you came and lie there till someone beats some sense into you, cause your ideas and your opinions certainly don't belong in this country or post.

Yeah I know, I know, you have freedom of speech...we all do. Its just funny how others are supportive of something that helps them, while people such as yourself shoots their own support structure (get the analogy, or is ittoo much of an overload for your puny mind).
And I could go on and on, but what would be the point so thus we come back to my earlier statement, why don't you go back to the hole you crawled out of and wait for someone to beat you senseless, you SOCIALIST.

by packratt Mar 13, 2002

You aren't listening, as usual... That's why they don't care about the backgrounds of who they bring over and that's why they still lobby hard to get cheap IT labor imported with as few restrictions and checks as possible.

It's simply because they don't have to work with them and they are the one's who pocket the extra cash.

Same old Garion...

Same old Packratt. Still thinking he is more important than the people who gave him the job...

Same old Garion, thinking executives are special just because they are executives.

Really, I just believe in equality, I am no better or worse than any other. I just get frustrated when I see people who truely believe they are better than all others just because they manage or because they have more money. I get even more frustrated by the people who reinforce this belief by blindly worshipping these egomaniacs.

Who is more important, the person who relies on others to get a job done but refuses to acknowledge that or the person who gets the job done? Nothing would ever be accomplished if we were all managers and executives my friend, the world is built by those who do.

by nonamecharlie Mar 14, 2002

If you want to demonize corps about improper hiring practices be consistent. At least you get talent from India, our airport screeners and DMV workers aren't fit for McDonalds!

Felony convictions AND no high school diploma OK! Welcome aboard the newly "professionalized" airport security where you feel up female passengers to your content and confiscate dangerous items like eyelash curlers!

I changed my mind..let the H1-B visas roll in and take over the DMV and airport security.

First, before I start I would ask that you re-read my posts...

Ok, if you actually read all of them you might realize that I was refering to the fact that the only independent study of the H1b program, in an albeit limited study, indicated that 33% of accepted H1B applicants were fraudulent. This means that their work histories, references, even education were found to be false. So, if we take a leap of guesswork and make an assumption that a possible 33% of the 100,000 H1Bs per year are here fraudulently then I wonder how many of those are here with ill intent?

Aside from that, I agree with your other argument in that corporations are not concerned with the quality of their product so long as consumers keep consuming and that security firms are no exception to this rule. Whether they are in an airport or your office does not matter, so long as the employees are cheap and the consumers keep paying is all that matters in their world. So much for free markets with today's consumer, the combination just does not work.

by road-dog Mar 13, 2002

Let me explain.... One might come to the conclusion that many posters here are racist due to their opposition to H1-B. This I feel is not the case.

The human race has been broken down geographically and now sociologically people identify themselves as a member of the "people who reside "somewhere". This is the case with me, as I identify myself as the American "tribe" which includes all races as members. I believe that most Americans do also, although my term "tribe" might not be the best word for it. Suffice it to say, that I think that the American dream should be available to our "tribe" first,and then accessed by outsiders as available.

H1-B should be restricted to the point where American jobs are made available to any American qualified and willing to do so. H1-B should authorized only if the slot could not be filled by an American at industry standard wage (including RELO)in a specified period of time during which the position is publicly posted. If this were the means test to authorize H1-B hiring, the program would scale pack due to lack of interest.

I also think that H1-B positions should be reviewed annually and reposted, and go through the same procedure as a new position to give an American access to the opportunity first.

by road-dog Mar 14, 2002

previous employers, and I have never felt that my efforts were not acknowledged. Either you aren't performing as well as you believe, or you have worked for some sorry companies.

My crew pulled off an $8,000,000 deal on a major network design androllout for a bank. Several times we ran up a $1600 tab for a night's debauchery in an upscale topless place in Manhattan. The company owner got upset only because we didn't invite HIM! All limits on our perdiem were removed, and if we wanted our wives to fly up to NY for the weekend instead of us flying home they were OK with it.

You seem to be upset at corporate America. Exactly what would it take to "gruntle" you(I'm assuming thet you're disgruntled a lot)? Be specific, let's hear Pack-ratt's list of demands..

by garion11 Mar 14, 2002

To Roaddog:

Ah, at last. My efforts haven't been futile. Thanks Road-dog. Its great to hear your comments. And personally I can't wait till he posts his (Packratt) list of demands.

To Packratt:

I don't think executives are special or anything like that. As for people thinking they are better than others because they have money/or they manage, well, to put it frankly, They are better than others (in some ways and in other ways they may not be). You don't see every hump or lazy person getting rich do you? Their position/wealth (if earned) reflects that, they worked hard to get where they are in life. So I do look up to them, and I always will, someday I hope to be one of them. Its called success. I am not gonna kiss theirbutt, but I will respect them and try to learn from them.

I am trying to understand your arguments big guy, but Road-dog is right. Why are you so angry at corporate america? Would you still have a job, if it wasn't for these "egomaniacs"?

But my life is a portrait of futility anyways... So here is a list of so called "demands" that I would think make for a better workplace.

1. For everyone to stop rewarding boot licking as a qualification for promotion.

2. Honesty and integrityfrom all in the workplace, in other words, stop promoting those who are just good backstabbers, we waste too much thought on workplace politics to be efficient.

3. For everyone to realize that each person's contribution is equally important for acompany to survive. An office full of managers will never accomplish anything and an office full of workers will be much less efficient spending it's time mired in paperwork and meetings.

4. Acknowledge that each person has a role to play and that their viewpoint may yield valuable insight if listened to, especially when the matter is within their realm of expertice.

5. Reward people for what they do, not who they know.

6. Let people have a life outside of work, a fair work week that allows for 8 hours of work, 8 hours with family or friends, and 8 hours of rest. This is what our parents and grandparents gave up so much for in the union days, we should not throw it away.

7. Equitable compensation for all. When CEOs earn 500 times more than the people earning him and the shareholders money there is a problem. This is up from 100 times the average wage a little over a decade ago. Where does it end?

These are most of the basic things that I would like to see that I really haven't seen yet, personally.

Am I really that unreasonable? If enough people say that these things are unreasonable then I will never post on TR again, I swear.

These seem common sense to me, but I always overestimate others so I will include these as well.

8. Respect others as fellow humans, as equals, because that is what they are, not job titles, but people like you.

9. Stop calling people resources, assets, and other various terms that turn humans into objects and appliances. We are not something you use up and throw away.

10. Give something back to the community and consumer. These are just as important as your employees and should demandyour respect and honesty.

My offer still stands, prove to me that I am unreasonable and I will be gone for ever, much to all of your collective joys. Tell your friends too that this is their chance to be rid of that awfull Packratt for good.

by road-dog Mar 14, 2002

Packratt,
Here are my observations about your list of demands. I must say that you have an interesting take on the workplace. I refute them in their entirety, but I'd rather you not leave the board for two reasons:

A) You're entertaining... I read and I don't know whether to laugh or cry!
B) I still have a faint glimmer of hope that you will accept the world for what it is and be a better contributor to this forum.

Here we go....
1) One man's bootlicker is another man's industrious, compliant, and respectful employee.
2) Office politics are the norm. Someone who disagrees with you is not necessarily a backstabber. Ethical people are the norm, not the exception. Revise your standards.
3) All contributions are not equal. Even thebest burger flipper on the face of the earth is worth $5.75 per hour. Some employees are missed when they leave, others are not.
4) There is a time to TALK, and a time to DO. Not everything is done in committee.
5) If the boss has two equal employees, one has connections upstairs. Who gets the raise? The one with the contacts because he has the ability to help the boss and the department with his relationships.
6) So.... Only bootlickers work O.T.? Your parents and grandparents also got timeand a half for us.
7) Different jobs are worth different dollar amounts, deal with it. Define equitable, If your pizza shop pays every employee twice as much, your pizza is going to cost twice as much. Inflation is under "I" in Webster's. Where does THAT end?

by road-dog Mar 14, 2002

8) We are NOT equals. Titles (and lack of them) indicate rank in the organization. You respect those who pay you, those who work for you, and the person who brings in the doughnuts on Fridays.
9) Resource doesn't necessarily mean expendable. As long as your dog still think's you're god, who cares what H.R. calls you. If you're considered an asset, that's a good thing. If you are a resource to your company, does that mean that's all you are in life?
10) Charitable contributions by corporationsare at an all time high. Companies DO "give something back to the consumers". They're called stock dividends. If you don't think companies give something back, take a look at the confiscatory tax code and the bloated giveaways that it finances.

We may want to take this to a different discussion... But anyways, as a counter to your arguments:

1. One man's bootlicker is another man's spineless yes-person who has no original thought and is thus of limited worth. Respect is one thing, bootlicking is another.
2. Even if something is the norm at some point in time does not make it right. Hitler's ideology was the norm at one time, was it right? I disagree that ethical people in the workplace are the norm, at least by my experience.
3. Perhaps, but I don't see any executive that is worth millions.
4. What's your point with this one?
5. Then the employees are unequal in your eyes, I'm talking about a situation where the better employee loses to the one with political clout.
6. OTis fine, when it's compensated somehow, now we all do it for free and smile about it.
7. Inflation still exists even though employees have earned an average of 5% increases in 10 years while executives have given themselves WAY more than that.
8. I say that all people are created equal and have equal worth to society... I'm sorry you don't agree.
9. I care that people see others as not people but things to use, it upsets me, sorry it does not bother you. We are more than job titles and numbers.
10. Charitable contributions are tax shelters and often are made to organizations that lobby government on the contributer's behalf. Companies do not pay their share of taxes, Some don't pay any at all. We pay for the bloat, not the companies.
But, I am a person of my word, if someone impartial states that your arguments prove me unreasonable I will leave whether that is your intent or not.

by nonamecharlie Mar 14, 2002

If you read mine (as I did yours)you will see that I am all for tighter scrutiny on H1-B visa program, on all visa programs as a matter of fact.

You are wrong about my position on corporations though. I am not worried about them and cheap labor. Rather the reverse where we have incompetent yet expensive labor in government. Corporations do not have the corner market on fraudulency, the government does. If there was any finger pointing to be done, it is with government inadequencies that you and I pay for. It goes beyond the INS and into the local, state, and other federal government agencies (FAA comes to mind). Unfortunately with government, you don't have the choice but to pay for it.

At least with corporations, they actually do have to hire skilled workers or their business will fail plus you can fire people. Ever heard of anyone in FBI, CIA, INS getting fired for gross negligence?

Free market (albeit, not perfect) works better than socialism or government.

The last part was just tongue and cheek.

Really, I do agree with you...

Except for the free market, at least at this point in time. Everything needs balance to succeed, unfortunately there is nothing to balance out a free market right now. If consumers were made capable of making informed and intelligent choices and had the motivation to do so then I would say the time was right for a completely free market economy.

The problem is that today's common consumer is both lazy and ill informed and that swings the balance out of whack, giving too much power to the corporation.

This is an unfortunate reality since I also agree that the perfect system would likely have a free market economy base. I don't like government, it's a wastefull thing and is problematic no matter which form it takes. But, I've gradually realised over time that most people just are not ready or willing to govern themselves.

But really, I do agree with you for the most part.

by generalist Mar 15, 2002

I'd say that Packratt's list reflects a set of behaviors that, for the most part, would make the world a lot better place to live in.

At the same time, road-dog's reality comments do indeed reflect reality. Some of that reality is good and some of that reality makes me sick.

Let's take the bootlicker example.

I wholly agree that we should stop rewarding bootlicking as a qualification for promotion. Promotions should be based on competence, not charisma. (Yes I know this is idealistic...)

At the same time I know that the definition of bootlicker varies and that industrious, compliant and respectful employees are sometimes considered bootlickers by others. This 'label' is often false when the person doing the labeling is incompetent or overly cynical. It pains me to see others trying to bring people down to their level with heavily biased accusations.

There ARE, however, true bootlickers who use charisma in place of competence. These are the people who ‘deserve’ the title and who need to be watched carefully because their lack of competence can be deadly to the health of an organization. In many instances they can destroy an organization by alienating the people who know how to get the job done.It is an interesting problem. How would we encourage competent, industrious, compliant and respectful employees without rewarding the true bootlickers?

And to further complicate things, how do we deal with the fact that we’re dealing with a spectrum of competence and charisma? It is possible to be extremely competent in an area but be impossible to get along with. At the same time, a person could be more competent than the average and be very charismatic. Then you have the extremely charismatic person who is a lot less competent than the average.

Who would you promote, given the above choices?

by binaryvision Mar 16, 2002

Its harder to get a job because of immigrants. My forefathers helped create this prosperity, but many younger IT people like me who have the same skills have trouble competing with H1-B Visa workers.

I know it is hard for a young hothead like you to understand this but if you knew enough about global economy boy you would know that the it is much more easier to shift jobs (programming,administration) to overseas than ever before.

by generalist Apr 10, 2002

If you want to attempt to slow the outmigration of jobs, consider doing corporate cleanups and kicking out the CEOs and CFOs that are outsourcing to other countries.

I suspect that there would be a one or two quarter improvement in local hiring.Then, when the corporate profits drop, outsourcing will restart, perhaps with am aim to moving most of the company overseas.

Of course, if too many jobs get outsourced and too many people in the US are out of work, politics will start to be influenced and programs like H1B will be curtailed. Furthermore, unless other economies can take up the slack, globalization could run into a problem of not having enough of a market to support the cost savings.

It promises to be interesting. Unfortunately, if you have been directly impacted by globalization, 'interesting' doesn't pay the mortgage or other bills.

IT industry now more than ever is spread all over the world. If you stop legal immigrants to coma and work here corporations will only be too glad to shift the development centres to offshore locations , because all said and done it is just demand and supply and what matters is profitibality not popular opinion.Moreover once the job base shifts from USA to elsewhere do you think you will get a new job? No sir because there will be no job for you. If you need a prosperous USA you need to keep both the consumers and the suppliers here as it has been.Just look at how the call centres are being moved away to other nations and here they are replacing people in call centres with CRM software. I am very agonised to see some of the very low level replies bordering on near insanity from supposedly educated people in this industry.

That said I agree that maybe foreign nationals should not be allowed in sensitive defence projects and I am sure the Government must have procedures to take care of it allready.

But if on the other hand you blame your joblessness on h1b's that just reflects how stupid and arrogant you are and probably one of the reasons why you are finding it hard to get a new one.

Indians , Chinese (majority of h1b visa holders) were not on that attack..they if you remember are allies of US in the fight against terrorism. If security is the focus here then think of how to deal with the arabs and the islamic millitants. If youjob security is the issue then we have moved far away from the initial reason the article was posted.

Moreover the pie chart that accompanied the original article didn't show a large number of h1b's. If the stats are correct I dont think joblessness is a effect of h1b's incoming.

by generalist Mar 19, 2002

The source of the data for the pie chart is a typical TechRepublic member survey whose accuracy is suspect. It reflects those people who noticed the survey and responded to it. I wouldn't trust it to reflect reality because of the survey method used.

What I would prefer to see is a scientific survey of businesses of all sizes reporting on how many people they have in IT and how many of those people are H1Bs. It would also be nice to break out the skill sets needed for the jobs and the amount of money paid for those skill sets.

What I think I might see is that smaller businesses may lack H1Bs while larger ones have a higher than usual percentage. This would reflect a balance of extra H1B costs versus getting the people needed to fill the jobs.

Hopefully we would also see that H1Bs are paid a fair market value for their services. This would show that they are not taking jobs from Americans.

Has anyone done such a survey? The results would be interesting to see...