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Forgotten why we have a job?

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by zulj

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Everyday I see and hear IT Pros complaining about viruses, hackers, Microsoft bugs, etc. We are calling for the blood of the creators of viruses. The Windows server crashes and we swear at Microsoft for their buggy OS.

Have we forgotten why we have a job in IT admin/support?

It is because of these problems that exist in IT that we have a job. I certainly wouldn't have a job if Microsoft produced an unhackable, bug free OS. Fortunately these things aren't going to disappear. Hackers are getting smarter, viruses more elusive, and software bug will always exist. I say this is a good thing. It keeps us on top of our profession. We have to get smarter to keep our network secure with as little downtime as possible. Which means we get to keep our jobs.

Another issue I have is with educating the user. I've heard this subject discussed countless times, but I'm yet to hear someone say how careful you should be when doing this. I have no problem with teaching your users what to do and what not to do so they can do their job. But, I don't believe you should explain to a user how you solved a specific problem on their pc. My lecturer at Technikon told me once "Don't share the knowledge you learn here with people not in IT. You've spent alot of time, money and hard work to earn that knowledge." I think he was right. Don't go into an indepth explanation with a user or non-IT person even with the simplest of problems. Think of how you learnt how to solve that problem. It may be real simple and easy to explain for you now because you had a similar experience before, but you had to work to get that knowledge. You've earnt that knowledge and thats why you were called in to fix it.

Now don't get me wrong here. I do believe its an absolute necessity to share knowledge within the IT community. The IT industry is possibly the harshest industry in the world right now and we do need to work together to get it back on track. And this is exactly how we get better at our profession. However, my Doctor doesn't tell me exactly how to diagnose myself so that I don't need to go to him anymore. Get my drift?

47 replies

by voldar

I agree with you to a certain point: we don't have to explain all what we did to solve a specific problem on a user computer. But, there is also a but, it depends on how frequently one/more problems appear to users. This is the time when I think we have to explain to users to "never do that or that" and to "do this and this" because if we don't, we are the one that become crazy after several calls : "I can't log in the network" (when the UTP cable is not plugged to the NIC :)). Don't laugh - this happend one or two times.
I do understand your point of view about how we have to keep an AS hidden (hope you know what I mean) and this is why I don't argue on this direction.
At last, it's something that belongs to each of us -> how to manage such a situation. I do like to help people - as much/little as I can - I am not a guru - but also, all I know now is after 2 years of studying/testing/falls&ups and it is not easy to maintain a W2K environment with 160 users in two locations by yourself. In fact I may say that now it's easy - because all is working properly (I ruther install all by myself from scratch than to ask someone else to do it for me)and users know what they have to know so that they don't mess-up their computers (also policies are involved :)).

by zulj

I will admit that there are definately cases where a good explanation is needed. I should have added that in. Believe me I'm not laughing at the constant UTP cable not plugged in part.
This is where users should be taught what to do and what not to do. But if I solve a BSoD on a users pc, I don't feel I should explain to him/her how I went about solving it. If it was due to the users mistake I'll let them know that what they did caused the problem.

by oldefar

You are wrong about educating users. A willingness to share what you know with your customers has the opposite effect - it increases their likelyhood of calling on you.

The reason becomes clear when you consider the actual currencies we all deal in - time, money, security, prestige, and knowledge. Most of your work is based on time and money. Calling you saves the customer time but costs money. When you share your knowledge, you also provide the customer with a positive gain in knowledge plus security and prestige.

Security, because they feel you are not trying to take advantage of them. Prestige, because you are not holding your superior knowledge over them but rather giving them peer status.

The next time they have an issue, they will call you because the previous exchange was an overall positive one for them.

Those who will not call because of money will not call regardless of their knowledge. Money is rarely the issue, but when it is the issue it is the only issue. This leaves those who will call, and providing the positive experience for them increases your perceived value.

by zulj

Your point is well taken and noted. :)

I probably didn't say it right, but I don't sit and fix a problem with my mouth shut and when its done stand up and say "ok its fixed, Goodbye".

Just wondering though, how in depth do you explain to the user. Is it necessary to explain the details of what you did, or shouldn't you rather give a basic explanation? Like "Your printer drivers were corrupt so I downloaded the latest version and installed them for you." type of thing.

by oldefar

I try to read how much detail the client wants, and to stop before their eyes glaze over. :)

by rangerchick

i agree with giving a short explanation to what was wrong and how you fixed. in my IT dept we work at a college and deal with faculty and staff so most times i find we have to give them a detailed explanation on how we did it why we did it and how to stop it from happening again. which is a headache. but if we don't the users are liable to go in messing around trying to see what we did and cause a bigger headache. but with any way you choose to explain to the user the whole goal is to not try and make them look stupid......even if you really want to :)

by jkaras

I get your points due to most people are not familiar with computers and it can get difficult to explain in layman terms to the user at times. You could wind up talking for many minutes on opening an icon ect... Respect is a two way street that can be paved in gold with the right temperment when dealing with a client.
As for the virus thing it's a catch 22 yes I'm glad that they are around to give us a need and hate having to deal with it. Just curious, why is it that they never find these people who unleash the virus? You go to the antivirus sites and whammo (just like batman)they already got all the info and counter tools for removal within hours of the outbreak? Who reported it if their email is hosed? Has anyone ever reported a virus? I always like a good conspiracy and sometimes I ponder whether or not these viruses are created and spread from the antivirus companies? It sure gives them business cause if there wasnt a virus happening all the time they would be out of business. Just something to think about.

by zulj

Yep. Have thought about it. Ever seen the "virus list" that these antivirus companies claim to stop. Man, there are alot of viruses in those lists. I haven't heard of 99% of those.

by jimhm

I work to feed, cloth and house my family and to enjoy life. I don't care if another virus is released - or they create an OS and hardware that never crashes..

If your education and skills are adaptable it doesn't matter what changes in the Market place - you will always find employment. (as long as the economy doesn't tank)

If you bank on repairing and fixing MS your going to be like the TV repairman of the 1950-70's - replacing tubes...

The costs are justifing research into other OS's - such as Linux soon others may come. They will come out with solid hardware (I have a Sun system that hasn't gone down in years - except maintenance) - the day is coming - Plan for that Day ... No more Viruses - No More Worms - solid hardware - Non-hackable systems and software....

Hope your ready - and I would bet it will be within 5 years... This field is a changing world that you have to jump - change - educate - change - switch - step - go from programmer to repair to network to architecture to systems - very few have done what they started just 5 years ago..

by oz_media

"Don't share the knowledge you learn here with people not in IT. You've spent alot of time, money and hard work to earn that knowledge."

I just said the same thing in a discussion regardnig user training.

In brief, it cost me nearly $60,000 to complete my automotive apprenticeship and get my IP (Inter provincial)Licence, then some yahoo wants me to talk him through a clutch adjustment on the phone, sure.

Same for IT, you spend time and money, you sacrifice nights out etc. while everyone else is at the bar. When done, you get a CERT and your friends, who were sitting in the bar the whole time, want free advice? NOT. I help all my friends with their PC's anyhow (and their cars) but i shouldn't, however, I find it hard to charge a friend for anything. Sometimes I have to cut a deal though, even if just bartering thier help with my boat or painting the house or...something.

by generalist

Long before Microsoft and computer viruses were known to the common folk, people had jobs in IT. They dealt with buggy applications, hardware crashes, OS problems, hardware compatibility, end users, occasional hackers and the rare virus.

Of course, when dealing with midrange and mainframe computers, the problem mix was a lot different. And the names you grumbled about were names like IBM and the guy who was in charge of the AR system before he left for another company.

Furthermore, you didn't have to deal with huge numbers of computers that are being affected by buggy applications, flaky operating systems, hackers and multiple viruses. You had a much smaller number of CPUs and a large number of dumb terminals.

Personally I wouldn't mind if the OS and applications were a lot more robust. Having to fix things caused by products that have flaws in them is not a good thing. There are enough problems just keeping up with new technology and new ways of using said technology.

If we had more robust software, then we could put more effort into securing systems as hackers and viruses proliferate. We could also work at training end users on how to get the most out of the hardware and software they have.

Ideally the 'maintenance and repair' type of IT person should be like the Maytag repairman. They will have a job, but it would be a lonely one unless they have other duties.

by generalist

For some reason the words of the lecturer at Technikon go against the grain. The selfishness of the comment seems more than a little cynical and contributes to the overall problem that IT faces.

Of course, given the complexity of the current IT world, you could give all your end users detailed explanations of what you did to fix the problem and still have lots of work left. Some end users will never understand your explanation and always call on you. Others will understand part of it and end up causing more problems when they try to fix something.

And the power users that understand will remember you and, most of the time, will call on you for help when they need it and will remember your name when they encounter a problem you helped them learn how to solve.

We're all in this together folks. Share your knowledge with non-IT people, keeping in mind that they have different levels of understanding. It can make your life easier in some instances.

by jimhm

I agree 100% you need to share what you have learned in life with anything including technology I just wonder if this guy or guy or gal keeps the things they learned in life from their kids - family - friends?? Sounds like they may have Ti'tee Knowledge (very little) to share anyway.

They sound like it was in the Nam (hate to go back to that again) ... but newbee's - green's - FNG's - no one told them anything about what to watch out for - what not to do - Ah shit they can learn the same way we did... the hardway.. why should I tell them anything ...

That got more FNG's killed or wounded than anything. I just wonder how some of those guys feel today - knowing that not sharing information with a brother cost that brother his life..

Not sharing in IT field - could cost your coworker their job - a friend his job - or someone you don't know their job .. How would you feel - I know the answer - you ask - I don't give and the next day your dismissed...

by zulj

Ummm, what do you mean "not sharing in the IT field?" I wouldn't be member of TechRepublic if I thought like that. I've learnt more by sharing knowledge within the IT field than any book, or training course I've been on put together. I pretty sure I did make that clear though.

I didn't mean for my comments to come out like I was selffish about what I've learnt or experienced. Its more like how much should you let non-it staff know about how solved a problem.

Btw I have trained 4 new-to-IT people for IT support in my previous job. I know thats not alot, but they're still in IT and doing well. They even help me out sometimes.

by jardinier

I absolutely and definitely take satisfaction in passing on any knowledge in any area of life which I have learned the hard way (through mistakes and pain).

In the limited area of IT in which I work (home users) more often than not the customer can't understand the explanation anyway, or doesn't want to. But I prefer to leave the job knowing that the customer is a little more computer literate than before my visit.

by voldar

I am 100% your oppinion, but let me tell what happend. As network admin to a company (the single person in fact - with 170 comps, because of the lack of knowledge of the users (read nothing special - just at least to know how to share a folder in the LAN), I start writting some kind of manual for users named "AFTER checking that and not solving CALL ME" specifying how to solve a problem/what to check if ... based on the most common things the user is supposed to know when working with a computer (i.e. check your UTP cable to see if it is plagged in, how to browse a network by using \\computer_name\share, etc. - not things that need more than 0.1% ussage of their common sens). You know what I get from them? Thank you for writting this down, but I want you to come solve my problem.
Here is what I want to say - to help and share your knowledge is something I am 100% sustaining, but do it to whom has at least a clue about what are you talking. I am not that convinced that if a firm ask and pay for your services to solve a specific problem as IT, is also realy interested in what have you done to solve that problem. Most of them want to know what to do so that the problem never comes up again - and THIS is where you have to be very good at.
So, share your knowledge - but not with everyone, ask and you'll be answered, help and you'll get help - and this forum is the best example of how much we wish to help eachothers.

by zulj

Thank you for your comments. You've helped me understand my opinion alot better now. I think you've nailed it there. Sharing your knowledge is fine but you must just know who to share it with. I can go with that. :)

by dbertsche

You have restored my faith Generalist. I have read some of the answers in this discussion and there appear to be a lot of selfish and arrogant people out there when it comes to sharing information.

A lot of these people don't seem to understand that end users (customers) pay the bills and their is an obligation to pass information on to them.

As far as people not understanding the information that is passed on, did it ever dawn on these "superior" IT folks that they're the ones doing the explaining, the fact that someone may not "get it" reflects back on them as teachers.

I have noticed during my time in this field there are a lot of people who are just absolutely terrible at explaining things and then there are others who give mountains of detail in a short time frame and expect you to grasp the information all at once. They need to understand people learn at different rates and by different means.

I have learned, being a trainer for sw applications, to share my knowledge and be patient with people trying to learn it. It's obvious that others don't share that sentiment.

Once again thanks for your viewpoint.

by jkaras

Yes you have a valid point however not all people are comfortable with learning and have a defeatus attitude like a parent learning to program the VCR. The parent might be very bright and capable but gets embarrassed or nervous when being taught. When I did tech support for Gateway and a dial up provider it was hard to get people to follow direction like right clicking the mouse and not clicking the right side of the icon. You can spend all day explaining to the best of your knowledge and courtesy and still not make a dent. It's not being arrogant anymore than a doctor explaining how, what and why your sick only these are the facts and what to expect. If he doesnt explain it well is he too then arrogant?

by jimhm

It may not be teaching a non-tech how to fix something - it would be more of explaining what and why something happened. (must users don't have Admin rights on their machines to do a fix).

But knowledge is power - if the end-user knows that X caused Y to happen, or if they did Z then W will happen what is the harm in sharing that knowledge.

Yes - some users are dumb as a bag of rocks - don't know if they have a mouse and look around the floor and say "I don't see any mice." ... but those are the ones that are so happy you took the time to teach them something about that scary machine they are using.. Once that happens - your call volume will increase..

by zulj

I'm right there with you on that. One thing I do at work is send out a "Tip of the day" email. Stuff like Windows + E will open up explorer and Virus Alerts ie Don't open attachments from Senders you don't recognise. Nothing complicated. No problems there for me. This type of thing certainly gets rid of many headaches.

When a user asks me "how can I solve a problem I'm having with my pc" I rather ask them to let me take a look at it. This is the main reason why I posted this cos I recently got asked this question. I'm sure we all know what usually happens when a non-it who thinks he/she knows everything about IT trys to fix something in IT.
Exactly the same thing as when I attempt to fix my car. I end up spending alot more money than I should have.

Slightly off topic here, but as far as I'm concerned anyone who thinks they know "everything" about computers actually knows close to nothing. The more I learn and experience in IT the less I seem to know.

by generalist

There are many sage comments that cover the idea that "The more you know, the less you seem to know." Many of these comments were made when the state of the art computer was, at best, a slate and a piece of chalk. So don't feel bad about feeling that way when dealing with IT.

Getting back to the off-topic topic, I have also found that the person who thinks they know "everything" about computers often knows very little. In rare instances, I find that they know more about them then I do. But most of the time it is obvious that what they know is limited and they aren't aware that they know very little.

If said people get annoying, I'll either ask for proof of their more outrageous statements or pull out a book and show that they are wrong. It tends to shut them up, especially when I state that I don't know "everything" about computers.

by voldar

This is way I love doing my job: helping people who really need help (and also I need a lot of help). I am not computer science degree - in fact I am civil engineer, but after 6 years of designing, I change my carrier to what I loved from since the computers appeared on the market in my country - not USA nor Western Europe - Romania. And lets be fair - it's a challenge we take every day at work: how to solve problems that are not as usual as someone would think they are. And I like that. As someone else said in a post before: don't you feel great when you solve a tricky situation by yourself? I DO!

by zulj

Oh yah! Nothing better than that! One thing I need to ask. Ever have those strange problems, you've never seen it before and for some reason you decide the first thing you going to try is something you've never tried before and it works?

For example last week one of the guys pcs was freezing a short while after it booted up. For some reason I just had a gut feel that it was the mouse. I replaced the mouse and it worked. And I have no idea why I even thought that.

This type of thing seems to happens to me far too regularly to be coincedence.

by voldar

Sure, it happened to me lots of time. In fact to tell you something - when users ask for my help because they have problems lets say with printing a doc, I go to them, try the same thing as them and it works everytime almost (99%). And I don't do anything special than they do. They are starting to say about me the same way we say about dentists: when I get to the dentist, any pain is allready gone :)

by tomsal

...you make a good point stating why we have a job in IT, however doing a little cursing and moaning (mind you to yourself or your peers IT who relate to what you are saying -- not to your clients or your boss) is part of us as human beings and its actually healthy -- in small doses.

I feel no shame, guilt or whatever label you want to smack on it because I slander the latest virus that took me off a more critical project and now I have to devote hours repairing systems across the entire company. That doesn't mean I hate my job or I don't agree that I should be the one fixing such problems -- it just means I have blood flowing through my veins. Face it everyone has their own stress levels -- but we all do suffer from stress at some point or another, its natural.

That said -- at my company, I can't speak for yours, but my value is more than just fixing computers, networks and installing/configuring systems and software. The model of our business means I also help sell our products, indirectly because our sales team call on my technical knowledge to explain services, what can and can't be done, when its reasonable to be delivered, costs estimations, planning time frames and the like. I also have manager functions that aren't just IT related either. All comes with the territory I guess when your company isn't 1000 employees large. (rumor has it they are actually going to hire me someone for my assistant soon..after 7 years..lol)

As for the education of the end user, to be Frank your original post struck me as someone with a self-confidence problem. I have no worries about me devaluing myself by sharing my knowledge. I actually think like Old said, it adds value to myself.

Finally...just because you tell someone how to do something doesn't really mean they can do it (or won't screw it up). Go ahead attend a lecture by your doctor and see if you can successfully perform an operation on just by what he told you. ;)

by aaron

If I am hired to fix a problem I certainly tell the customer how to avoid it next time.

Any my Doctor does tell me to exercise, eat right, and even occations does 'preventative' maintenance.

Even if a person knows how to do something, they may not WANT to try it.

Half of the time I am sitting in front of a broken PC I will suggest Apple or Linux as a replacement. Its a shame that Microsoft has built an industry around shoreing up poor quality work.

Can you imagine if your car needed service monthly? Or you had to stop by the gas station EVERY MORNING for a quick update?

Ludicrous

Make your money, but be honest about it. Your post definately has the sound of a broker or middle-man that knows thier only value is that they know something that the customer does not.

You will be surprised at how many people will still hire you because that is how a service economy works.

With your outlook how could any tax prep company possibly make a living. Not only are all of the instructions printed, but they actually GIVE AWAY books at the library each season.

I would much rather build new solutions then keep patching garbage that I know will break.

And to be fair I did recently charge someone over $800 to reformat and reinstall windows AFTER I told them very clearly that the software I was installing had known issues and would crash in use.

But its a shame that thier particular person bought a $3000 laptop and then had to pay even more money just to get it to a usable state. It only crashed every few days and Dell's solution was to reformat and reinstall.

What a pathetic industry we are in.

I should have been a plumber like my dad. He never had a toilet crash while someone was using it. And even though he has told people how to use a plunger on occation he still has work.

by tomsal

you charged $800 for formatting and re-installing Windows and a moron, oops I mean a "customer" actually agreed to that charge and paid you?!

Amazing.... Well at least I'm never let down by hearing how outrageous companies charge to do simple repairs or installations -- purely preying on the customer's lack of knowledge. THAT's what's ugly about the IT industry.

I'm glad I continue to tell friends, family, even work associates -- DO NOT PAY A CONSULTANT to fix your personal computer, do not pay Best Buy to install software for you, etc. I tell them I'll check it out and fix it for free or for more complex problems I just bill them parts/materials (at wholesale cost btw and they get a selection of parts to chose from with varying price ranges) and I'll ask for $25 - 50 ---if its not much trouble for them to afford.

Granted I thank god, I don't need that side money because I'm doing ok with my day job supporting me AND I am selective of who I offer these "services" too -- because its done on my time.

Point being, its disgusting knowing how much some people gouge in this industry (and the other industries too actually).

I can see making profiting, saying you are working to put food on the table, extra -- but when you charge more for a new system to install software -- somethings just not right with that picture. Its not just your company, there are many who are exorbinant...go to Best Buy and look at what they charge used to be like $20-25 to install a RAM chip...PATHETIC...its a 10 second job, and 8 seconds are used to open the case on the computer. My 8 year old niece knows how to change a RAM chip.

by oz_media

So I have to paste it;
"And to be fair I did recently charge someone over $800 to reformat and reinstall windows AFTER I told them very clearly that the software I was installing had known issues and would crash in use."

ECO: ARE YOU INSANE !!!!

Man, people say I'm an A-Hole, you've got to take the cake on this one! Was she a little old lady who wanted to email her cookie recipe to her nephew? What a bastard! It's people like yourself, in this industry and others (specifically Automotive) that I run into all the time trying to gouge people for their hard earned money and putting IT into the gutter.

The MOST I chave ever charged to rebuild a PC was $100.00, and even that was after I asked for $40.00 and was told I was worth more than that, the guy was running his own company and had the coin so I reluctantly accepted. MOST of my service (off hours) is free, you get a lot mroe out of things that way. I no longer pay for my morning Mochas, I have an unimited drinks on the house at my local watering hole (they've even asked if I want to throw an open bar party for my freinds, on the house of course), I have three hotels (1-eastern Canada, 1 Germany and 1 southern England) that I stay st for free, all because I don't mind helping out or doing a favour for someone. The barter system works great, favors done turn into favors received.

by voldar

Hi there, the one that charged 800 USD for a format, don't feel offended by the title - it is the reality! And who knows,(;)) maybe (for sure) you are the main part of it.
You say in your "post" that half of the time you are sitting in front of a broken PC - I suggest you to change it with the couch and stop doing what you are doing now. It would be much better for all of us if people like you just dissapear in the ... whatever.
You sound like a guru of linux that really don't know a thing about windows. It is true that windows was not a stable system - but now it is - W2K is a good example. I agree that you don't repair much on a linux machine - but you know why? Because if it crashes, it's for good! You can't do anything like restoring data's from a broken HDD, you can't even undelete files if, by mistake you did so. I have enough hearing that the linux is the best and windows sucks! Viruses are not needed for linux - all it's needed is just to know a little more than the person you want to attack!
The truth is, as allways, at the middle. Each of the systems has it's good and poor parts. The choice is up to us - the users.
You say that you have a Dell laptop that you to reformat every 2 days or something like that. This is what gives me the very good impression about your knowledge on computers. You know why? Because if something brokes ones, maybe the user did something wrong, if it brokes again, you start thinking of hardware faults, if it does this again - third time in a row in less than a week - you go change the it because it's useless! That way you save money to the customer and you do your job somewhere else. Or you don't do that just because you are well-payed when formating?
You don't have to replay to my message - take it or leave it. And yes .. I agree with you - stop doing computers -> become a plumber, it's much more interesting to do that! And you can charge people with 1000 USD!(dream on).

by oz_media

Very well said vladolar, even though English isn't your first language, I think you made less spelling and grammar mistakes than I usually do and your point is quite clear.

May I add, if this guy is suc a clever tech, why has he got a Dell to begin with?

Plumbers are well known for showing their crack, I think this guy won't be a plumber because he smokes too much crack.

????? ???????????! ( I think that's right )

OM

by lordinfidel

Why?

No linux junkie in his right mind would suggest an apple computer. Unless it was to run OS X. And even then, we remove the MAC OS and install BSD on it.

I agree, he should take up plumbing.

by lordinfidel

That's insane, even for someone like me.

And I charge upwards to $125/hr (80 is currently my avg for contracted clients)

$800??? That's almost half the price for me to go in and set up someones router, firewall and vpn.
And that's 2 day's worth of work doing advanced computing.

A typical install of 2K takes 45 minutes, add another hour for misc programs, SP and hotfixes.

And you charged $800. I don't even charge that much to even my most haneous client who has to run 10 different tax programs. Which adds another 2 hours to the install time.

Don't bash MS for their software. While I may not like M$. When installed by a competent person who knows what they are doing, a MS OS can be stable.

To suggest an MAC to a client? Even Linux (which I love but it is not appropiate for an end user yet). That and if you can't get a OS such as MS to behave, how the hell can you reccomend MAC or Linux?

by don_c

Guy?s I have to. For the JERK that charge a client $800 to reformat a dell. With A restoration disk. How could you? I have been repairing computers for over ten years and I have never charge over $60 for a reboot even if they don?t have their driver?s disks. Hell man I couldn?t sleep at night if I done that. I bet you still live with you dad. Cause you can?t have many client?s at those prices

On the subject of MS$. Yes I agree that stability is not one of its strong points and that?s its open season to virus and hackers But would we be plumbers or mechanics or something worst if MS$ wasn?t so terrible. Just a thought.

For teaching the end-user? Knowing the stablility MS$ a little won?t hurt. Because if you do your job right then the problem should not come or by time it does they have forgotten the solution (Quote!!!) (Been there Done that).

by oz_media

When telling someone how to log in, explain TCP/IP and DHCP, you'll not be asked again.

or

Ask someone for a basic diagram and then supply them with Camera Ready artwork requirements, sizing in picas, color depth and that you will only accept 20% black tones on a 30% gradient.

Nothing better for keeping the sheep in their pens.

by jimhm

OK - Oz, your going to go off on me ... but ..

Hey - figure you charge out at $75.00 an hour - it takes 4 hours to do that job ... that's $250. Say you charge out at $100.00 an hour - hey if they are willing to pay it and he / she was up front about it ... then "Buyer Be Ware"...

What would you do - "No that is too much hear is $750 back..." Ha..

We have IBM contracts that charge out at $275 an hour - they maybe worth $35.00 - but the company pays it - but thats another story in the big city.

Just like your plumber - you pay by the hour - if it takes 3 hours to clear a drain - you get charge for the 3 hours labor... if it take 3 hours to fix your car - you get charged for the labor and parts ... Figure $75.00 to travel - $75 an hour - adds up quick..

by oz_media

Unless you are also aron@metrony who said:

"And to be fair I did recently charge someone over $800 to reformat and reinstall windows AFTER I told them very clearly that the software I was installing had known issues and would crash in use."

So that's 8 hours at $100.00 hr. 8 hours to reformat a computer and install Windoze?!

Excellent to see people aren't following the 'shady mechanic' and overcharging for their time.

"if it take 3 hours to fix your car - you get charged for the labor and parts ..." Costs me about $20 for a case of beer and I fix it myself.

I see your point though.

When working for Ford, our service writer had a
big book with time and charges in it. If it said 3.5 hrs to RE&RE a transmission and I did it in two, they still charged the 3.5 hrs. All shops do.

I also understand that it costs a lot of money to have IBM, Compaq or ? techs to turn up (if not warantied or under a service agreement.).

Even Microsoft wouldn't charge $800.00 to reformat and install Windows on a PC. That's just insane, you can buy a newer pc, probably faster than the old one for less than that, WITH a warranty.

Sorry Jim, I'm not going to freak out on you, you have a point, having been in the service industry I've seen it first hand, but this just doesn't add up. Either a useless tech (8 hrs to install Windows) or just too much money charged.

by tomsal

Well said Oz.

I don't care what anyone on the planet says $800 is outrageous to charge for formating a system and then re-installing Windows. If I got paid daily along those rates then I'd be richer than half the celebrities in Hollywood.

Actually I would turn down $800 from MOST people just to format and re-install windows -- its called having a conscience and a sense of honor. The "most" comes in -- if I didn't like the person, lol.

Btw, I'm curious if the logic is charging $100 a an hour to get the $800...how good of a tech person is someone if it takes them 8 HOURS to reinstall windows?

What method of installation is that guy using? LOL

Finally, the rates have to justify the complexity or expertise required for the job at hand. I'm not a mechanic -- so I don't half mind paying a little bit to have my tranny re-built, because I'm clueless on how to do that AND there's no easy way for me to just learn that process quickly.. anyone with the ability to read can install windows and format a PC, it is an easy and simple task to figure out and learn. At the most someone may need some notes made for them or some light teaching.

I just don't see the logic in charging high amounts for SIMPLE tasks.

period.

I'm done.

by jkaras

but the only thing that makes any sense without assuming he went overboard is price gauging is if the customer didnt want the OS restored from the recovery cd. He might have sold him on the premise of a legitimate licensed copy of whatever OS by Microsoft. Lets face it a new in the box OS is over 3 bills!!! I admit it sounds like he gauged the poor fellow but what all did he install (all programs)and how much time? There will be still over 5 bills unaccounted for. Never forget about ole karma what comes around goes around and that money he cheated will only wind up with bad things or situations that will cost him more.

by voldar

and I hope you'll excuse my english. In fact, after reading the post I saw all my mistakes, but it was too damn late to correct them.

To answer your question, we have a saying (in my region) for when someone is celebrating his birthday: "I wish you good health, because luck, every stupid people has!" I think this is the most accurate answer that fits your question about the DELL :)

by oz_media

Your comments are interesting and funny. I look forward to seeing your posts here more often.

OM

by oz_media

How many people get reinstallation help here for free!

Sure you can't access the net when your PC is down, but perhapse a friend or even the library could get you here.

Yup, 8hrs to reformat and reinstall Windows. How could you possibly show your face there again!?

Maybe he installed Windows from floppy disks one file at a time...no....still wouldn't take 8 hours.

by hal 9000

While Ms is a little worse than perfect we would all be saying the same thing if something like RedHat was the OS that dominated the market. Microsoft is only so bad because there are so many different OS's and every year or so it seems there is something new. But the main problem with Microsoft and all its products is its market penertration not that it is a bad OS and software it is just that it is used so much that it is the logical place to start for those types who likw to cause as much damage as possible or "Hack" a system.

Currently it is MS dominance in the market that is its greatest problem as everyone wants to attack it for whatever reason, but if there was another OS that had the same market penertration it would have the same problems. Although they just might have some better business prstices than MS but even then they would fare no better than what MS does today. Now don't get me wrong I'm no MS lover but I do understand the fact that there is no perfect OS and never will be and the bigger that something gets the more likely it is to come under attack by someone with nothing better to do with their time.

Remember it was Unix systems which where first "hacked" way back when everything was a main frame with dumb terminals. We have got more effecent equiptment but at the same time the hackers and others with the same ideas have got better as well so we will always be fighting a rear guard action attempting to keep our systems patched and as secure as possible while at the same time being "User Friendly."

While I personally think that $800 is a bit much I suspose it all depends on what was required and in what time frame as I've had to perform total data recovery and reloads overnight so that the particular computer will be ready by the start of business the next day but even then I've never charged anything like $800 in labour. I could only justify a price like that if there was hardware involved and while DATA recovery can take a lot of time it is something that you never fully charge for, if only to keep your clients, but I avoid "Quotes" and give "Guestimations" as you can never actually tell what will be required until the job is finished, but if it is just a straight reload with noi data recovery involved then it is a simple job that takes very little time and even with the most used server you should not be spending more than a few hours to do the job. Perhaps it would be a good idea to instill the need for data backup's to be performed regurally to keep the costs to a rreasonable level.

But on the other side of the coin I've seen outside repair agents in an attempt to keep their charges down actually sell data off a business computer that they have in for repair and to me this is far more serious than even the most expensive repair job that I've ever seen.

I don't know how these people sleep at night as this is something that I would never consider doing but unfortantly I've seen it often enough to realise that it isn't an uncommon pratice with the larger repair agents and the small business. There was one case where a small Insurance agent had his entire client list sold to an opposition form who contacted all of his clients and undercut him on premiums needless to say he wasn't in business long but then again he skimped on the hardware originally and took no precautions to protect his data. When I gave a Guesstimation on repairs to a 3 month old computer that really needed some major work just to make it usable I did suggest that he instigate some "Data Protection Policy" to which I was told that I not only wanted to supply unnecessary hardware but I was paronid about the data on the computer as it was of no interest to anyone else. Well I guess that I can say I had the last laugh but honestly that is somethingthat I hope to never see again.

by don_c

You are right he could have had to do data back and recovery and i might have jump the gun a litle but still $800 to make a brand new laptop to be usable Hmmmm!!!

by hal 9000

But what is exactly a "new" LT as I've seen people who bring in their 3 year old LT and insist that's it's new. Then again I'm old enough to remember some person bringing in a computer complaining that it didn't work because when it was started it only came up with C:> and that couldn't be right {that was back in the days of DOS [where that meant Disk Operating System and not Dinial of Service].} I ended up having to install quite a bit of software just so this person could use his "New" computer which was sold without any software.

Without knowing the full story I'll hold my coments for the time being because I've seen too many so called Computer Specalists who only advertise the Hardware and no Software in their advertised prices. After all you just might want some form of Linux instaled on your new computer so why bother including and MS product in the price?

by jimhm

I agree - with $800 to reformat a drive - can purchase a new system for that price ... but if the dummy is stupid enough to pay it ...

I think he riped off the person -

But - Buyer Beware ...

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