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Gartner: Old Geezers can't handle IT

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Oct 9th article in Computerworld outlines Gartner's attitude to old people in IT: we don't know s**t about IT and apparently we need twenty-something whippersnappers to tell us about new technologies, while we drive our old fuddy 'sedans' and see to our 'mid life crises' or our companies will go belly up.

Wow! I'm sure those whippersnappers will be doing us all a favor by replacing our mainframes with a trillion records with windows systems where individual files have a 2 gig size limit. Who cares about SSN records or the corporate data store when you can IM each other all day?

Seems they have 'culture' which will save us all! Balding baby-hating Jean Luc needs to be replaced with alien-womanizing Captn Kirk (or the 20 year old equivalent :)

With twenty seconds left, I guess we all WILL die.

http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9004001

267 replies

by too old for it

I knew I was too old for IT back in the 90's when I was 40-something, and kept getting bypassed for IT gigs by 20-something hot shots with spikey hair and an all-black wardrobe.

Should have gone on to law school then, so I could have laughed in thier face when the dot-com era ended and t hey were looking for someone to sue instead of in the mirror.

Or a coffee shop, I dunno which aoule have been more fun.

by why me worry?

who shot up the school and then killed themselves

if I was the hiring manager, I would think twice about hiring anyone with spikey hair and a black suit

by johnnysacks

Kind of like a parent telling them to clean their room...

I'm trying to get a handle on what two immigrant martyrs have produced over the course of a couple years while they gained the experience to get themselves new jobs. Every mini-application is an undocumented brittle mess containing hardly any coding standards and a patchwork collection of classes with related functionality and hardcoded configuration parameters scattered throughout. RDBMS functionality was a new concept so there is no connection management or transactional control whatsoever.
First screen of a windows forms app grabs 4 connections for one user immediately.
Transactions? Forget about it:
1. Insert table 1
2. Insert table 2, if fails, delete table 1
3. Insert table 3, if fails, delete table 2 then delete table 1... and so on

The database designs are just as bad.

Documentation is almost funny: 'After synchorize data aplication show you new records' Word's grammer and spellchecking green and red underscores make it look like a Christmas decoration.

It would be ignorant to assume this scenario is related to an entire age group and management gets the brunt of my blame for allowing them to sit by themselves over in the corner while only reviewing the user interface. I can say that there definitely is value in having senior people available who have spent enough time in hell to provide insight to the consequences of bad decisions. I can also remember the senior people I have worked with in the past who spent the time to show me how something should/could be done and the benefits of doing it that way. It would have taken me under an hour to show these junior developers simple ways to use a single configuration file to store application settings, manage a client/server database connection, and wrap a series of database actions in a transaction.

by metilley9

Seems like every time I go outside for a break, these youngin's take my walker. Sure, they think it's funny, but how am I supposed to get back upstairs and write that COBOL code? Speaking of which, ever heard the one about a prerequisite of a frontal lobotomy in order to write COBOL? It's true. Now I kant wallk to thype nomore.!

All kidding aside, IT folk should be home in their own offices where they can code all day and night. Where's the need to burn gas and drive to an office? And to all you "Young Whipper-Snappers", there would be no such thing as computers and laptops or an IT industry if it were not for us! So there!

Dang gone it, I wrote this on my Blackberry outside and it's raining again. Where's my walker???

Anyone know who still uses APL on mainframes? I will relocate anywhere (except NYC), at my expense.

curlergirl, is that the Wicked Witch of the West as your picture? Faaaaarrrr Out! ;-)

Peace Everyone. God knows we need it!

by curlergirl

In that case, they can go to technodamnation. Guess I'll just hop into my vintage Corvette Stingray with my Windows Mobile Smartphone and my Creative Vision MP3/video player and zoom off into the sunset. I'm sure I can find a nice beach somewhere....

by techexec2

When we Boomers were in our 20s, many of us had similar thoughts about the management in their 40s, 50s, and 60s. Now its our turn to be on the receiving end.

Damn whippersnappers!

:^0

by jdmercha

This is typical Gartner drivel. They seem to have a way of looking at the symtoms and finding a solution (or a direction) without ever hitting on the root casue.

They are correct in describing older people having more difficulty with technology, but age has nothing to do with it. Lack of managements understanding of technology is a much bigger problem.

by cs

I've always thought of Gartner research as being lightweight and inconsequential. This latest news merely confirms it. It must be a corporate ethos that inflates their analysts ego's in logarithmic inversion of their ability.

by why me worry?

to realize that the old geezers invented things like TCP/IP, or have they all of a sudden forgotten how the internet works?

what a bunch of ungrateful jackasses!

by jkameleon

For the time being, IT profession still wants me to stick around, not the other way around.

But, then again... I always was a "versatilitst".

by stress junkie

I tinink that Gartner's report is trying to favor the people who have a high opinion of Windows. These tend to be the younger and less experienced people.

by codebubba

>> ... these tend to be the younger and less experienced people. <<

Could be - however I think that's a little bit overly general. In my case I followed the Windows development trend mainly because that's where the business was. I don't knock Linux or any of the other platforms available - however when it came right down to it, I found a much wider audience for my software development skills under the Windows platform. Simple economics.

Aside from that the Windows platform has become very competent.

-CB :)

by stress junkie

What I meant was that since the report came from Gartner the report said that the people who are most likely to favor Windows are the important ones.

by danlm

Even though Im contracting, with my retirement. I can work at Walmart and survive. He can have his wipper snappers that will go out and spend 40,000 for some application that inhouse could have wrote and had working for under 500. Lol, and be what the employee's/management wants too.

Yup, go for it.

Dan

by zlitocook

Started borrowing software from XEROX and other companies like Apple it seems that almost all of the other companies had old guys working on the software. I have been a contractor for a long time and I found out that the younger people have great ides it will not apply to the work place that hires them.
Most companies look to new hires to be able to learn in place polices and to be able to add their new knowledge to them.
But it has not worked out that way, the new people need contact with others ether by IM or other means to contact and interact with each other.
Older people just need to see what is going on and respond to it.

by shifty78

are you one of the older or younger folk?
Just wondered if your grammar was so bad because of old age or the terrible education system these days?

by av .

I can't believe Gartner would describe us oldies but goodies as a bunch of fuddy-duddy, sedan driving, pot bellied, has-beens. Thats just not true. How truly disrespectful and shortsighted on their part. Every age group has something different of value to offer to make IT successful.

Fresh new talent doesn't always equal success. Young whippersnappers have to "cut their teeth" in IT before they should have the keys to the city. That takes years.

Mark Raskino is sadly misinformed about us old geezers. We might have wrinkles and more girth than we'd like, but we have IT wisdom and I've yet to see a young'un have that quality. We should be working together with young whippersnappers, not forced to retire because we're older.

Boo Gartner.

by why me worry?

the hell with Gartner and their B.S. articles

they have done nothing but done a great disservice to peopel in the I.T. field and are pro outsourcing to 3rd world countries, which I am strongly opposed to

by why me worry?

there is a mutual learning experience that is gained from working with older IT folks. They know a lot more about data structurs and the inner workings of computing than they are given credit for. On the flipside, the older IT folks learn from us 30 and 20 something year olds about current and upcoming technology. As my parents and grandparents always say, "there is a lot to learn from the older generation, so stop being stubborn, shut up, and listen to a piece of history as you may just learn something." Simply because people are old does not render them useles or obsolete. Like fine wine, we get better with age, not worst.

by jamesrl

I am a middle aged guy - 45 - and I don't need a young whipper snapper to keep me current on technology, thank you very much.

Good example is that I've been browsing YouTube for a year, and mentioned it to some of my younger collegues, who all shrugged. 1.65 Billion later, they all wonder what the fuss is about.

James

by stuoutlaw1

I'm in my 40's and had a chance at learning all of this IT stuff when I was young but thought I'd let the geeks have at it so I got a degree in machine shop technology(notice the T) that didn't work out so at 38 I went back to school and now work with "old Timers" that are at least 10-15 years my junior no matter the age group we all have something to contribute even if it's just a"new pair of eyes"

by av .

I think it all boils down to money. Old geezers are more expensive, and heck, we're falling apart to boot so healthcare costs go up.

We're still worth it because we have IT wisdom. You can't read it in a book.

Young minds are precious. Their enthusiasm for a job and their fresh eye to the future can move a company forward. Us old geezers can do it too, but it isn't perceived to be fresh.

Maybe the bottom line is that companies should decide which person would best suit their needs. Maybe if they're lucky, they can find some oldie but goodie that can do it all.

by why me worry?

Gartner is very pro Microsoft and biased against anything else. I am not surprised they made such a bullcrap statement about "old geezers". Those old geezers can teach us young whipper snappers a few things about data structures and computing in general.

F**K YOU GARTNER..YOUR OPINIONS ARE CRAP AND SO IS YOUR ORGANIZATION AND ANY IT EXECUTIVE WHO READS YOUR DAMN REVIEWS IS A BUTTHEAD

by rlambertsc

And I quote "F**K YOU GARTNER..YOUR OPINIONS ARE CRAP AND SO IS YOUR ORGANIZATION AND ANY IT EXECUTIVE WHO READS YOUR DAMN REVIEWS IS A BUTTHEAD"

DO IT TODAY. I can't remember when I have read an article that so immdediately ticked me off.

"The best way to understand what's going to happen, Bittman said, is to look at what your children and grandchildren are doing."

This reminds of the Gates comment on how to learn to use email when he said to ask your kids. Everybody laughed then too. Idiots!!

"Senior IT baby boomers need Web-savvy twentysomethings, analysts say" That's right and they need us too.

What ever happened to the stability we provide. I guess I won't be able to get a job with Gartner, or maybe I should apply. Can anybody say discrimination?

by nicknielsen

[i]Many CEOs believe that their CIO is cost-focused and not capable of contributing to growth -- and they need IT to contribute to growth."[/i]

This comment begs a question or two:

*How many of these CEOs hired their CIO [u]because[/u] he was cost-focused?
*Isn't this the same Gartner that told us the world economy would essentially collapse because it would cost so much to mitigate the effects of Y2K?
*What's the average age of a Gartner analyst? 23?

I've been a "versatilist" for years, often writing code one day and repairing equipment the next. Since I've concentrated on hardware recently, I'm not as proficient at scripting/coding as I used to be, but I doubt it would take long to get back up to snuff.

Gartner has never impressed me with their insight. It seems to typify the younger generation's expectation that you can get paid just for showing up.

by jlrobins

...and some places, it is an issue that is being taken up. Next week, the IT department here is having a session on working with the 'new techie types'. Could be useful in a 'real world' company, not just academe.

by jneilson

I read an engineering forum from time to time. A lot of young engineers, fresh out of school post there and one of their main complains is they are required to do things that aren't engineer related or worst yet, perform physical shop labor. Poor guys (or girls). Do colleges tell their students their going to get $100k management position and a corner office right off the bat now?

by locolobo

I took an Exchange Server course at a local community college recently. The professor told us that consultants in Exchange made $150/hr. He even showed us consulting firm prices from somewhere to back it up. He did not explain that those were the retail prices not what the "man in the trench" took home.
Most of the kids ate it up. It's a beautiful dream. Take a few courses, get a MCSE make $$$! LOL

Paul

by nicknielsen

Every time I'm around somebody complaining that "this isn't what I went to school for and why do I have to do this, don't they have custodians to move equipment" I get a Janis Joplin earwig: "Cryyyyy Bay-beeee, Cryy Bay-beee"

I usually start humming along...

by rknrlkid

When he left the Navy as an electronics technician in the late 60s, he went to work for Digital Equipment Corporation. He was the "old man" surrounded by MIT grads. (He was a high school drop out, btw, who got his GED and some college while in the military.) He was far from clueless, however, because as a hardware guy he understood digital electronics down to the inner workings of the chip. I remember watching him pour over electronic blueprints that covered the kitchen table (and they were the inner workings of a new chip!).

He later retired from DEC. Before he retired, he would often laughingly talk about how he had guys with PhD's working for him, when he was a high school dropout. He credited his success to two things:

1. Experience with technology.

2. Experience in managing people.

Two things the younger, more highly educated people did not have! I think many of the complaints that we often hear on these boards about management is less about management in general, but more about a younger, inexperienced management that consistently makes the same mistakes. As far as the technical side, we are always hearing about how someone screws something up ;)

by hal 9000

To reinvent the wheel. They are mostly incapable of accepting that things work this way and then get on with the job as allocated instead they are constantly trying to completely redesign the entire system for some reason best know to them.

Col

by ole man

I have kids that take care of anything I can't handle.
You mess with me, they'll handle you too.

by mike

Years ago I worked for Shell Oil Offshore Exploration. One year there was a big...big push to offer retirement packages...that bottom line bean counter logic... let's retire all the big wage earners and get some young bucks in here so we can pay them less. Well a bunch of old timers took the package and the young guns came on board.... then the problems started, units had to be replace for no other reason than they did not understand them...Shell was famous for modifying purchased equipment, geez didn't anyone else see that coming? So tons of money went into changing "obsolete" equipment (that worked perfectly fine) with higher tech.... problem was when you reinvent the wheel you hit all the bumps fresh too, even more if you are not an experienced driver!!!. The inexperience costs in other ways also...the young guns bought up all kinds of stuff that simple did not suit the needs of the project or did not function together like the old modified stuff did...(Geez I guess those old coots jacked around with everything just cause they were bored or senile and not because they had a PLAN with a PURPOSE). Some of these young studs were given Carte Blanc and was that a mistake?expensive dinners, luxury car rentals?one young fella wound up having to have his parents mortgage their home to bail him out of American Express charges when Shell finally decided not to pay.

The point of all this being is that when you have some asinine notion that you are smarter than evolution and do not need the value of history and you decimate your sources of knowledge, you have restricted your potential in a dangerous gamble that usually yields a handful of worthless cards. I personally believe that if you watch a baby you can potentially learn new things to apply to your life?..young or old, we are all unique individuals with unique perspectives on life and life?s experiences, to limit the potential for knowledge and growth by age discrimination or anything other type of discrimination is a fools game.

by nicknielsen

"Hegel was right when he said that we learn from history that man can never learn anything from history."

by drace

I work in a company that has an amazing pedigree, from the invention of the transistor through development of Unix and the C programming language. All achived by having the experience and knowledge of age combined with the energy and drive of youth. These days you are lucky if you meet an IT grad who can speak English properly. All of the major achievemnts in our technology were achieved by MY generation. People try to put us down.....

by terry.courtney

I am young myself (22), and I currently work as an engineer in a small team with two other members of staff.

I work very closely with an older member of staff than myself, and I dont see what the problem is with older IT workers... he is a wealth of knowledge and is very maticulous in the work that he does. I have a lot of respect for his experience with older computer systems right up to present day!

Together we work very well as a team, there is not one person that can know everything, and to have a powerful pool of knowledge of different sectors of IT like we do, is very effective and jobs get done cleanly and to a high standard. We teach each other new things everyday (He often tends to teach me more than I teach him tho lol)

I dont see why older members of staff should have a problem, much like this rubbish about women not being as capable, ANYONE is capable of anything, no-one should be shoe boxed and under-estimated age,sex,race etc

So I believe the index finger is in need of raising to this Gartner guy :)

If anything us young*uns have much to learn from you more experienced veterans!!

Cheers

by johnc

and it's great to be a 60 year old IT guy.
As IT manager I love working with them. We all have great respect for each other and this makes the days so much fun. They teach me a hell of a lot and I teach them about older equipment we still use. When they have problems and I solve it, I am often told by my guys "thats why you are the boss". To hell with this Gartner guy

by rhomp20029

I just retired from managing a project with a bunch of young guys. We really worked well together. They had the technical knowledge better than I did but I had the business sense and enough of the technical to be able to link the two together.

When it came to doing the new projects I would work with them figuring out the best way to do the business work and then they would work with me at analyzing the best technical methodology. Win/Win situation for both of us as I kept them on the straight and narrow on what the business required and they kept the technology focused.

When it comes to figuring out the problems and how to fix the data errors the best and most efficient way, that is when I come into my glory. The user can tell me what they did and I can then tell my guys exactly where to look for the problem area and how to change it so the problem gets trapped and fixed right away before it causes other problems.

My big complaint with the current generation of techies is that they are indeed techies. They are taught all the latest and greatest. What they are not taught is the business sense behind it and that is where we old timers come into our glory. I remember when my company was adding a special client with huge billings and special needs. We needed to feed the data from the regular system to this new system and every time they had a glitch I was the one they came to to find it, explain it and tell them how to get around it. There are some things that experience teaches and you need us oldsters to keep you going and tell you why things were done the way they were. You may need to change them but unless you understand what you are changing you will truly screw it up and end up costing the companies a lot more money fixing the mess than if you listened to us tell you why it was a mess in the first place. Experience can beat talent every time.

I was lucky in that I had a team that understood my best uses and listened and learned from me. I got very sick and was out for a month. Because I had worked with them and kept them in the picture of exactly what was going on and what we were going to do about it, they were able to function without me and not lose a step. I also knew that when I devised a solution to a problem, all I had to do was explain my solution and they would find the best tech way to implement it. Like I said, it can be a true win/win situation if you have the right people who understand each other and the values each brings to the table.

by tweakerxp

Just remember one thing folks....

Old age and trechery will always over-come youth and skill.

ROCK ON...

by sprinkl3s

Last year when I was 21, I interviewed for a Network Admin position. I ended up getting a job there out of that interview, not for the Network Admin, but as a pc/network specialist. the guy that got hired for the network admin was close to his 50's and had about 20 years experience. at first I wasn't really sure about him and what he knew but as we got used to eachother we made a great team. his experience with my "new eyes" worked out great and we both learned a great deal from eachother. i learned AS400 he learned Exchange, along with a lot of other things, between the two of us there was no stopping us, if it had been only one of us there would of been a lot of problems.

so I have to agree from my experience that the IT field needs the "old geezers" just as much as it needs the "whipper-snappers"

by rwright142

I'm 47 and have learned from the young'uns as well as having mentored them. With our field always changing, they sometimes explore areas that I do not have the time to. We banter back and forth but also share our knowledge and experiences. That helps us all.
I do get the occasional kick out of telling one of them to replace the flux capacitor in the server.... hehehe

by mumpsguy

I was up for a position, and the only concerns the development team had about me was my age. I was 48 at the time. The problem wasn't that I was too old, the problem was I would be the youngest on the team. Seems all those engineers had concerns about the new kid. Who can figure?

by madtechgirl

Gartner analysts are becoming continually irresponsible and they are showing that they are NOT the objective third party they are supposed to be. For a Gartner analyst to stand up in a conference and promote an attitude that old people can't be handle the latest and greatest shows their lack of professionalism to say the least. I was incensed by the article and I'm glad this discussion is speaking out against that attitude. By the way these same "objective, no political bounds, etc." people are trying coin a new word Biggle, combining BI with Google. If that isn't promoting a particular vendor what is?

by drace

Over here in the UK the law has recently changed and if a prospective employer infers that you are too old for a particular job which you are qualified for may find him or herself in a very vulnerable position.

by dr_zinj

Or so I surmise from their 'report'.

How about slapping them with a class-action suit for age discrimination on behalf of all the IT workers over 40 in America?

You put baby boomers out of work now and you'll destroy our already fragile social security, medicare, medicaid, unemployment, and a dozen other government programs, and probably precipitate a depression worse than the 1930s.

The key to keeping older IT workers productive is to keep them in training on new tech and ideas. Send them to training classes on new software and hardware. More importantly, expand their viewpoints. Put them in seminars on business, not just IT. When you expose people to problems of WHAT needs to be done, they'll start thinking of ways on HOW to do it with what they have down in the basement.

by exoduz87

in my old IT gig, i recieved a new manager in the final stages of my working there. he was early 20's in charge of a small 3 man dept with quite a largish infrastructure. he did have quite a bit of techno knowledge but knew nothing about management in terms of projects and personel. needless to say, things went to hell and he ended up wasting a lot of money on needless items.

the manager i had before him, was about 40 but performed very well in the management position. sure he wasen't the most up to date on technology, but i have come to see now that his job was to manage. mine was to be the young techno geek up to date with the latest and greatest.

by cs

I had a young "Star" manager who was good UNIX, but he was hopeless with negotiation. He negotiated a "great" deal for "Data Storage" where our bank paid a monthly service fee per Gigabyte that was the same as purchasing a Gigabyte of hard disk. The additional monthly cost to the bank was more than the value of the Lamborghini he used to drive.
I'd told him it was a bad deal, but I had grey hair so was ignored.

by old_it_crone

We all know who and what Gartner is. {shrugging}

But I have to laugh when I think of complaints about the guys in the castle while we were sneaking pc parts through the loading dock to update the 8088's to boot from hard drives and power color monitors.

Was it the "white" castle? I can't remember. My age is showing LOL

They were the "old guys" back then.

But I will tell you what burns my butt -- interviewing an intern with "comupter experience and web savvy" only to find out that s/he can not only IM with the best of them - but build a great My Space page.

Off to hunt my Geritol.

by vtassone

Wasn't there a quote.... Can't remember who said it or the exact quote but it went something like, "I got here by standing on the shoulders of......" I'm having one of my "past 50" moments.

To old to IT, to young to die. I think some one wrote a song about that.;-)

by rknrlkid

"You're not to o-o-old, for CO-BO-OL-OL-OL, but to young to die."

hehe ;)

(Shameless parody of Jethro Tull's "Too Old for Rock and Roll, Too Young To Die." Of course simply knowing who Jethro Tull is identifies me as being old!)

by pj8089

When I started.... (many years ago)... My company would have NEVER started as early has we did.. if I hadn't bought that IBM Computer that sat on a desk ! 64k of memory, NO harddisk, a flippy and that black screen with amber letters ! We went from that "1" to over 400 "pc's" from DOS to WINDOWS ! And who taught them to use them ? Back then there was No one to ask for help ! No "old timers" ! lol

by jlrobins

This guy that is 'too old' fought to bring in the first PCs, spent years as the PC advocate, brought in Oracle (version 2!!!), set up the first networked PCs, managed the networks, left a job when a younger but incompetent person was given powers that kept screwing up the network, worked on a web 'presentation and pay' site before 2000 (w/ an Oracle DB backend), etc. Now, my task is to organize things to avoid code clobbering by the 'creative' young folk. Or to be sharp enough to take what the 20-somethings say sounds 'phat' (or whatever the latest buzz word is for 'cool') and help them turn it into something real, and really useful.

by bharris09

IT isn't their business on a daily basis.

They write about it and talk about it but in my 30+ years experience, they haven't convinced me that they know squat about it.

"Researching IT" doesn't make you an expert, living it on a daily basis over a period of years, might....

As far as saying us old folks can't handle it, BS ! That proves my point, that they don't know squat. Those young bucks come to us when they hit the wall with their "unsolvable" problems. Most likely, we have already been there, done that.

by rclark2

This is especially true when all computers are at the root of it all, collections of light switches. Hardware and software are two sides of the same coin.

My first computer was a TI58C (102 programmable steps), and my first language was GMAP. I have programmed on Sperry Univacs 1050-II's using nothing but hardware.

I have programmed in DotNet (VB & C#) and program ASP with Notepad.

I'm 48 (I think), and while the memory is going, it looks like it will outlast the rest of me.

So Gartner, and any other 20 somethings, hear this: "History is there because it worked. Otherwise, we would be talking about something else. So next time remember that while you know what is out there today, so do we, and we remember how we got here if we need to rebuild it or switch horses." By the way, I know which side of the horse to get on too.

by susieq1967

I'm an Old Broad, 58, and I just gratuated from College with 5, that is FIVE computer science degrees and I had no trouble set up and get my business running. So don't sell us old geezers down and out!! We still have a lot of life left and a lot to teach the younger folks, if they would just shut up and listen.

by hal 9000

We to have much more to learn so that we can keep up with that is happening in IT or at the very least that part of IT that we work in.

I got a good laugh out of that article when they said look to your kids to see what is happening.

When one of my kids breaks something they come running to me and my much younger nephews insist on screaming out [i]Call Uncle Col[/i] every time that anything breaks. According to them I can fix anything and am especially good at repairing light bulbs.

OH the innocents of youth. :^0

Col

by don.haldeman

I have been in the military for over 20 years now and I get the new guys coming up to me about the newest tech that they come across. Generally, they want my opinion about the tech and if I don't know I can easily find out and pass along my opinion.

Don

by vtassone

I thought it was a Newton but all I could think of was "fig" LOL, another "over 50" moment.......

to old to IT, to young to die

by sr10

Gartner is just telling its audience they have justification for what they already want to believe. The crowd wants to hire a bunch of energetic kids with visions of glory and without the political experience to push back.

Make no mistake; I am not bashing people in their twenties. You are energetic and you are in touch with the latest technologies. But you will get used and thrown away, just like your predecessors were.

by rtss

I was going to reply and stick up for us older IT types but dammit I can't find my glasses. Because I only hunt and peck 45 wpm I have to have those glasses or all the technology will change before I can correct the spelling and submit my 2.25 cents (it's Canadian so I have to make up for exchange rates).

This is nothing new, of course. The older the experience gets the more the enthusiasm of youth speaks up to try to get experience's job.

It's laughable, of course. There is apparently no such thing as an objective 3rd party opinion....just 3rd parties that can discern between what attitudes will pay them well enough to keep them a 3rd party.

That's all I can type for now, I'm late for my geritol.

by ashby

If you've had dealings with Gartner, you will know exactly why they don't like "old timers". It's because the have the experience to recognise that the so called analyses that Gartner provide are not worth the King's ransom they charge for them!

by longwayoff

According to wikipedia at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand_on_the_shoulders_of_giants
The metaphor of dwarves standing on the shoulders of giants is first recorded in the twelfth century and attributed to Bernard of Chartres. It is often mistakenly attributed to the seventeenth-century scientist Isaac Newton..., as he famously remarked in a letter to his rival Robert Hooke dated February 5, 1676 that:
"If I have seen a little further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants."

Please to note that Newton was 44 when he wrote/published the Principia, and 61 when he wrote/published Opticks, so Gartner blew it there too - according to him, Newton was too old to do any of the things he actually did!

At the end of the Wikipedia article cited above, there is also a note about On the Shoulders of Giants is a collection of works by the major scientists Nicolaus Copernicus, Galileo Galilei, Johannes Kepler, Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein, all compiled by Stephen Hawking. In his introduction, Hawking addresses Newton's famous version of the quote above. which may be where the Einstein impression came from. As to Einstein, the famous 1935 Einstein, Podolsky, Rosen (EPR paradox) paper was published when he was 56.
Gartner, Bah!

by sboverie

I read the article and it starts off reasonably and starts bashing us geezers. I see what they are trying to say, they just say it badly and arrogantly. What the article seems to say is that IT is being held back by some old geezers who are not up to speed on the state of the art. This is true in part but it is a stretch to blame the problems on oldsters.

I am 50, I have no trouble keeping up with technology. The computer industry has really changed in the past 30 years, the youngsters get to skip the early techniques we had to learn.

This goes back to the time before personal computers, my boss from that time said he works on computers all day and why would he want to work on one when he got home. Computers at that time did fairly limited functions.

To get into the industry 30 years ago, I had to know electronics thoroughly, because we had to chase the problem down to component level (transisters, capacitors and resistors), know Boolean algebra, be able to produce truth tables from a circuit and be able to read schematics.

Does this mean that I am carrying baggage of outdated knowledge? I do not think so, mostly because some of the exciting changes are just another version of what we used to do years ago. I find that I have a better understanding about what is going on in the box than the kids who are coming out of college. I am actually coasting along, I do not have any problems keeping up with changes.

by tonysr

just remember one of these days you will be an old geezer and a 20 something will tell you you're to old.
Been there and done that, now I'm getting it back.

by techexec2

All I can say is...GO BOOMERS GO!!!

That's what I like about TR. There are a lot of my age peers here.

:^0

by codebubba

LOL!

I guess I'm fortunate. I'm becoming one of those old "geezers" (at 48) - but I still like what I'm doing. Yeah, these 20-year-old hot-shots know all the buzzwords and all the new stuff - but I still find that (as always) I can still get more done than they can with some good old-fashioned DESIGN and front-end THINKING.

The new tools are all very slick - but I still just keep things simple and get the results - that's why they keep my old rotting bones around I guess!

-CB :)

by 3xp3rt

The real reason of appearance of ?old IT guys don?t know new technology? is all IT profs have a good knowledge in one technology (and experience) what become at years past old technology. The younger IT profs come with new technology but they have no experience and not even good knowledge. The reason is very simple. Is no person in IT who know everything in one technology, this is impossible. So if someone working in one technology over 10 years, he accumulates a lot of experience and a good knowledge. So he can handle almost every problem in this technology quickly and most efficient like in one new technology. A younger colleague what say seeing this? His answer: This old guy doesn?t know the new technologies and he is very inefficient. So what?s your opinion about this scenario?

by wieczor8

pips, anyone, took 2 yrs he's in jail
now.
http://cigars.bravepages.com/pipsrpt.html
Still doin cutting edge CI
http://cigars.bravepages.com/head/Internet%20Surveillance.ppt#256,1,Internet%20Surveillance
Tracking Terrorists
http://sunbeltblog.blogspot.com/2006/10/terrorism-toolbar.html

And alot of corporate work I can't talk about

tech republic even carries my CI toolbar.

Hell the 20's don't even know where to start.
Let alone keep up.
Still working till 3 or 4 am daily.

Gerald

by trtjj

I'm 40yr old IT director. I think there are few issues. Does the old geezer:
-love to learn and use new technology?
-love to get thier hands dirty?
-keep a young mind, think about what would a 15-20 year old use all day? Remember this is what pushes new technology and fuels the business Culture for the new future employee.

by tony hopkinson

yes and he's been in IT since his twenties, then the answer to all tehse questions is yes.

The real qualification for IT is the beinginterested in answering technology questions starting with the word 'How'

Without that you're going to be crap at it.

At your age you should know that.

by tig2

I'm a geezer (I turn 44 this week). A couple of points.

Those of us who are in this profession becasue of a genuine love of technology and a sincere desire to see the new points of integration DO posess the qualities you list.

Better than that, we came up at a time when there were few who (a) understood how it worked and (b) had the patience to MAKE it work when it broke.

Moreover, we bring a work ethic to the table that is rare today. We have a very different agenda- we know that we are there to deliver results and that results don't always happen between 8a and 5p.

I think that generalising has little value. We all bring something to the table. Us fogies remember how to hold a network together with bailing wire and duct tape. The younger kids bring a new vision. Between us we can build great things.

It comes down to valuing ALL the people available as opposed to prejudging them.

by susieq1967

I just graduated from college with 5 computer science degrees and started my own web design and computer repair business. By the way I'm 58 years old and doing quite well. So the younger kids don't always have an advantage over us older folks. I had the resources or managerial experience to do what I am doing now. I worked in Food and Beverage for 30 years as a Manager and just got sick of the 80 hour weeks and crappy pay. Now I'm my own boss and just loving every minute of it. Technology Rocks!!!

by rhomp20029

What good is pushing all the newsest technology unless the systems using them are validly thought through and actually have a business basis for their design. I can design you a great system using all the latest technology and it will have all the bells and whistles available but if it doesn't meet the needs of the company what good is it. That is where the geezers are useful. They can bring to the table the reasons things are done as they are and the logic behind business practices. Then once these are discussed and the approach is taken that will handle the problem, then you can use all you new technology and business culture. Without a sound basis of usefulness all else is nothing but sound and fury signifying nothing. The young people need the seasoning of business practices before they are useful and if you get rid of the geezers you will have to suffer through their playing the game until they realize that they need to produce something useful. Right out of the box very few of them are capable of that.

by fredeppy

Not all of us old geezers could not handle the job, even when IT was not our job. But now we sit happily on our mountain top out here in the Ozarks, and still doing ITs job. But now we do it for fun and only for friends. I worked at a Gov't Manufacturing Plant and as with most gov't jobs out IT Dept was understaffed and overloaded. There were 2 of us amatuer geeks in the Manufacturing Dept that IT would call in when they were overloaded with service tickets and we would check the situation out and either make a quick correction or tell IT what they needed to come out and handle. Both of us geezers were well over 50.
Fred

by kj7gs

I don't know how old you have to be in order to be a "geezer", but it frustrates me to no end to be in my mid-40s and having to work for half an hour to get someone in my own age group up to speed on collaboration software that has about the simplest learning curve I've ever seen. Culture? Yes, I'm not a teenager with teenage likes and dislikes. I'm a mature person that exploits technology who tries to learn everything I can about it. Sometimes I can see how the younger set would be frustrated with us geezers, we do it to ourselves by refusing to learn about new things. With apologies to Napoleon Dynamite, Gosh! Gosh! Gosh!

by jlrobins

Next week, we are going to have a hour or two of training on 'generational differences and how it impacts the workplace'. The 20-somethings may pick up technology like a magnet does iron fillings... But many are about as organized as... I will just say, less organized than most of us 40(almost 50)-somethings were at that age. And that is the REAL issue. Gartner missed this one, big time. They are around because they usually have some accuracy/value to what they say. No one is perfect, though.... Not even us old folks...

by tig2

I not only know who Jethro Tull is, somewhere I OWN a copy of "Thick as a Brick" on vinyl.

And a few others- completely missed by this generation.

Gartner... bah, humbug!

by nicknielsen

almost seven feet wide and still play a good bit of it when I get in the mood...everything from Albinoni to Zappa.

COBOL? THAT brings back memories, some of them good, like the first IT joke I ever heard:

Q: How are your sister and COBOL alike?

A: If either one misses a period, all hell breaks loose.

by tink!

Youth does not guarantee an open door into the current trends or consumerisms. There are many who are young, but who are also clueless as to what's hot and what's not. So I don't think any smart business should automatically categorize their thinking to young'uns being the only way to go to keep up with the times.

The "old" guys/gals of IT are just as likely to know, hear, or be involved in the latest trends as a fresh face out of college, because of the fact that they will usually have connections with today's youth through children, grandchildren, nieces, nephews and even friends or friends' children.

Plus the TV is a great way to find out what hot consumerisms are being pushed to the youth these days. (Parents know - kids want everything they see on TV that looks cool in a commercial)

And of course, there's always the "old" people who are really kids at heart and are buying into new trendy things...for themselves.

As for myself, I'm somewhere in the middle, don't think I'm "old" yet but I'm not really "young" either (I'm 30). But I have 3 personal connections to the youth world who will be living with me for at least another 10-13 years.

Tink :)

by terry.fitzgerald

I just implemented Documnetum at our company - rated as industry leader by Gartner - they obviously know nothing about document management systems so maybe their a little short of knowledge about us crinklies (I'm 62 - I work with mostly younger IT people - many of them are idiots - most of them cannot manage) Maybe gartner should do a study on that!

by jneilson

Six weeks after I started my current job the plant manager wheels a mop bucket over to me. Yep, it was my turn to mop the bathroom floor.

by nicknielsen

I can't begin to count the number of jobs I've had where the description included "and other duties as assigned."

Surprised them a couple of times, too! At one job, the boss told me the toilet in the ladies room was leaking and needed to be fixed. I went and took a look, came back and told them it needed a flapper valve, a complete new fill valve assembly, and a new wax seal and I couldn't fix it without those. Everybody laughed. Three weeks later we had a minor flood and the boss broke down and called a plumber. He installed a new flapper valve, a fill valve assembly, and a new wax seal. After that, the boss bought the parts and let me do the plumbing repairs. :D

by tig2

And here's to us and all like us! In the words of Maecuff- we are all young and incredibly hot!

You prove my point- life ends only when we let it. I plan to be learning new things until the day they plant whatever is left of me.

by gsquared

Yes! The perfect corporate solution is replace all experienced IT personnel, everyone who has learned the hard way to write good code, everyone who has ever been through a server crash and knows why you don't turn off the AC in the data center, etc., with young college graduates who have degrees that say they know computing!

Pefect!

If what you're trying to do is increase content submission to TheDailyWTF.com, it's perfect anyway.

I know! Let's set a mandatory retirement age for IT at 25 years. Then we can certainly live in this guy's delusional world where lack of experience is a good thing.

by hal 9000

As we live in an ageing population we are at some point in time going to run out of enough 20 + youngsters to go around so what will happen them?

More importantly in the interim those 20 + are going to have to contribute far more of their income to pay us Unemployable Oldies who are not worth employing because we are so far over the hill that it's not funny.

I say bring it on with a mandatory Income for the over 30's that will allow them to live a comfortable life style with all the [b]Fringe Benefits[/b] being paid for by those youngsters who know it all. :^0

I honestly could do with a break from all the hard work that I have to do and I would really like to have a Holiday once in my working life that doesn't involve a Hospital stay. :D

Col ]:)

by susieq1967

I am returning to school inj January to get my BS. Can't wait. I'll always try to stay one step ahead.

by oz_media

You scoff at the stereotype of old fuddy duddies in IT.
I agree it's a stupid comment to begin with.

But yuo trun around and show yourself to be absolutely NO different with oyur own reply.

You INSTANTLY stereotype younger IT staff.

"Wow! I'm sure those whippersnappers will be doing us all a favor by replacing our mainframes with a trillion records with windows systems where individual files have a 2 gig size limit."

Now you are callign then WHIPPERSNAPPERS, just as they see you as an old geezer.

Yuo also insist that theri Windows knowledge is limited and that your own is far superior.

So tell me, DJ, what was the point of your post? hypocrisy? A 'me too' kinda thing?

Or are you just a grumpy old geezer?

by hal 9000

I've seen way too many so called Small Business Specialists who live & Breath Windows and will not consider anything else no matter what is involved.

I got a good laugh at one place that specialises in CG with an IBM 2K CPU Blade where the New Boy had tried to install Windows 2003 Enterprise Server over SUSE that was quite happily running the system.

Not as a VM but as the OS and to hell with the version of SUSE that was running on that unit and it didn't matter that all the specialised Image Processing was done on Nix based applications Windows was the only way to go.

When the Graphic people complained I was called in to get the unit working again and was wondering just how many of the 2,000 CPU's that they where paying for where actually running as there is no possibility of any form of Windows that is currently available to drive that beast let alone allow work to be done in a timely manner.

I pulled the backup drive and swapped out the existing drive and had everyone happy in a few minutes except for the Young Guy who was insisting that they had to have Windows on that Blade as there was no other OS that was capable of working. After all they've only had that particular system in place for about 2 years now with very few problems. Every problem that I've had to fix has involved some [b]New Young Guy[/b] messing up the system by installing some form of windows on it. Pity that they have never been taught just how little any form of Windows gets when it comes to the [/b] Scalability Stakes.[/b]

I left suggesting that if he really must run Windows on that thing he try creating a Virtual Machine and run 2003 ES from there but to leave the base OS alone so that work could be done. I naturally re-imaged the boot drive that he had mucked up originally and put it into safe storage so that a complete reload wouldn't be required when he messes it up again.

Their Down Time is measured in the Millions of $ per Hour and this young fool had to take out the system for 2 days for no good reason other than the fact that it wasn't running Windows.

I mainly blame the management for employing people like this but then again when I look at what is on offering I suppose that they have very little choice.

Col

by hal 9000

I know that they are out there but far more often that I care to think about it,it's the younger ones who are not prepared to put in the necessary hours to do the job right.

I've trained many youngsters when I was working Big Business and very few of them found it necessary to work the actual hours required after all if it couldn't be done in [b]Normal Business Hours[/b] it was impossible to do. I've lost count of the number of times that I've had to put in several days to fix a problem and during that time with a lot of money being lost per hour I've watched many of the youngsters walk out the door at Knock Off time because they want a Life outside of work. I don't blame them completely but I also don't see much of a [b]Work Ethic[/b] either. Many seem far more interested in the pay check at the end of the week rather than the actual work.

I know if I worked that way all my life I would have been working for several companies that went broke because their systems where down and they couldn't do any work. Of course in a place like Banks it would have engendered quite a lot of confidence in the customers if for several days they where told [b]The Computers Are Down so We Can Not Hand out any of Your Money Today. [/b] :D

Col

by hal 9000

But not in the way that they are implying in the article.

[i]And the message coming from Gartner Inc. analysts today is that youth matters more than ever in IT, especially as the Web becomes more interactive and collaborative and heads in directions that Baby Boomer-aged IT managers may be ill equipped to lead.[/i]

This is perfectly correct but it doesn't apply to the techs who hold things together but to the people named in the introduction who are responsible for holding Technology back Bill Gates Particularly & Partially Steve Jobs.

After all just how long have there been perfectly good 64 Bit hardware systems around with no software to run on them?

[i]Gartner analysts told the 6,000-plus attendees that companies poised for future growth will be clued into the so-called consumerization of IT, a catch-all term covering the mobile, customizable and heavily interactive technologies those in their 20s now seem to expect.[/i]

Read correctly as [b]Open Source[/b] none of this Propriety junk that is holding back Technological advancement.

[i]Contrast that to senior IT managers, who are likely a "middle aged, sedan-driving, middle income, middle class, middle-of-the-road, midlife-crisis, mid-sized managers from the Midwest, who carry a little bit too much weight around their middles,"[/i]

Which reads as [b]Responsible[/b] and unlikely to kill themselves at the first opportunity given them.

[i]And if being called overweight so soon after breakfast wasn't bad enough, Raskino urged the boomers on hand to plan for their exit. "Plan for succession -- what you need to find, what you need to nurture is fresh talent -- and that talent will be multiskilled, multidisciplined ... and it will take on new roles."[/i]

Which reads as Promote the people who Know and not the Brown Noses who constantly agree with your ideas.

[i]Raskino said Gartner is dubbing this next generation of IT professionals "versatilists."[/i]

This means nothing more that it says they have to do a bit of everything sound familiar?

[i]Terry Epp, senior development manager at the Bank of Montreal, agreed with Gartner analysts about the consumerization of IT and said it's prevalent in financial services with online banking and trading.[/i]

Reads as we are not responsible for the problems it's your fault! We quite often loose your money but it's not our fault. Look at all the young Rouge Traders that there places put out and wonder how these places stay afloat. They are Banks and who's heard of a Bank going broke recently when they are all making obscene profits and still loosing money hand over fist and paying their Senior members of their Boards outlandish Bonuses that would keep most small third world countries in food for a year.

[i]"This is not just about technology, first and foremost, it's about culture -- it's about cultural change," said Bittman, adding that "although this is probably discriminatory, there is a different attitude, at different ages, based on what technology can provide."[/i]

Dam right it's not just about technology what it's really about is how to integrate Technology into Business in a cost effect manner that will work out best for the company. Nothing else matters here.

Unfortunately the new crowd are not taught what's good for business but only the technology so they all lack the knowledge on how to achieve this without spending years of being supervised and taught how to do things that are in the companies best interests.

Over all I have to say [b]An Excellent Article[/b] that has drawn the wrong outcomes from the existing available evidence. To put it simply [b]They messed up the Output and Haven't as yet realised.[/b] :D

Col

by thedavestretch

Maybe he can't handle people. Don't bother getting worked up about this. it's onl worth it if you value his opinion. and I don't.

by bjdtis

and guess what? I'm a "geezer," and at least twice as savvy as the article writer. It isn't an official Gartner position. It's an official idiot position!

by phd_oz

O.K. so i don't pull allnighters sucking "enegery drinks" on the obsession of the moment creating bloated swiss cheese code from hell! yup I is OLD (47).
Perhaps it would be more productive to blend a mix of age groups and backgrounds as I still can teach a young pup a thing or two and be taught by that pup also! Hey perhaps as a team we can avoid reinventing the wheel and git 'r done faster, better mo harder.

ps I was a young pup once and was of the opinio that the old f@#$ should retire - thank god they did not untill I learned from their experience.

by derekshields

Aren't those youngsters sweet? The only problem is that they believe that everything is so simple and monopolar. Everything is either good or bad. We oldsters get by with massive ability to cope with ambiguity and the unfamiliar and have been doing so for years (26 years IT experience in my case). Still that's what growing up's about.