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H-1B: Patriotic or treasonous?

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Infoworld had an interesting article today about the H-1B visa debate and the future of IT in America.

Check it out at http://www.infoworld.com/article/05/05/06/19NNh1b_1.html?source=NLC-TB2005-05-06

Topic

Thank you for shopping at Kwiki-Mart..Please come again

In reply to H-1B: Patriotic or treasonous?

H1-Bs’ are better suited at running Kwiki Marts and 7-11s’ than doing IT work from the quality of the work I’ve seen from them.

They come here for jobs, but as a U.S. citizen, try going to India and applying for a job there. They will laugh in your face and tell you that they only hire their own. So if they hire their own, why the hell must we hire any of theirs?

Either become a citizen of the U.S.A. or get your curry stinking ass the hell out of this country!

I’m sorry to sound harsh, but why are we pandering to foreigners when it is obvious they don’t give a crap about us?

There was an article a few months

In reply to Thank you for shopping at Kwiki-Mart..Please come again

ago that showed others going to India to work. In fact they preferred it because of many benefits. I don’t remember where I found the article or read it, but it was interesting.

Apparently, these people from France, England, Germany, and many other places found that all of their living expenses were covered and other benefits. They got to travel in Europe as well. Yet, they all worked in India for companies duing IT work.

So, to say that you can’t get hired in India if you got there, I don’t believe that statement. I was offered a job when I worked managing an offshore project. I chose to stay in the US.

If I can find that article, I will post a link

In reply to There was an article a few months

but the truth that they want us to hire them but don’t want to hire us is indeed truth, and they will blatantly tell you so in your face “We only hire Indians”

As I said. . .

In reply to If I can find that article, I will post a link

I was offered a position in India. Here are some of the Articles:
http://www.ramdhanyk.com/movabletype/archives/thoughtprocess/000776.html
http://www.business2.com/b2/web/articles/0,17863,1019047,00.html

I’m not doubting you..but your case is rare

In reply to As I said. . .

as I doubt that if 1000 of our IT guys were to go to India seeking work, they would be laughed right out of the country.

I understand your doubts . . .

In reply to I’m not doubting you..but your case is rare

Read the articles. I found them interesting. They were real eye openers for me. Another interesting aspect, if memory serves, the reason they are hiring outside India is in answer to the language issues that have come up. English speaking employees for English speaking countries, etc.

Ahhh..the language barrier..gets me all the time

In reply to I understand your doubts . . .

I recall having to call Computer Associates, which has their call center in India, only to get some Indian tech who I could barely understand. I wasted more time trying to understand the jibberish coming out of his mouth than actually troubleshooting the technical problem we were having with ArcServe at the time. What’s even more funny is when you call up and they state their names as “John Smith” or “Mary Joe” yet sound more like Apoo from the Simpsons and try their hardest to hide their Hindi accents, which they do in vain. Yeah, if their name is “Billy Bob Joe”, then my name is “Rajindra Patel Ramalamadingdong”.

I sometimes goof on them by sounding like an Indian myself

In reply to I understand your doubts . . .

I once called Dell tech support and pretended to be Indian myself, because I do a pretty good Apoo impersonation. My coworkers were rolling on the floor in laughter at how the tech could not understand my accent, yet I understood his and he kept asking me to repeat everything I was saying. I told him to excuse me because I was in the middle of having lunch and the curry and tandoori chicken was sticking to my teeth, impairing my speech a bit. This was a priceless moment in which we all got a good laugh out of.

J.Lupo, what are you doing?

In reply to I understand your doubts . . .

I’ve read a lot of your posts and you’re a pretty intelligent person, with a lot to contribute and a nice way of articulating your point of view.

Why are you wasting a nanosecond responding to moron face? You didn’t get enough of his nonsense in the other couple of threads he’s been polluting this week?

Does anyone out there have any connections at TR I could call so I can get him thrown off here permanently? After that happens I plan to have his membership card in the human race revoked. Considering he bought it on sale that shouldn’t be too hard.

Sorry amcol . . .

In reply to I understand your doubts . . .

I was just happy to see someone respond to a thread I started. I was so bored at work today, I decided to participated at TR and do some research.

I am begging for appologies. Please. . .

Enough is enough

In reply to I understand your doubts . . .

Do you think when moron face changed his alias this weekend he knew it would propagate throughout all his stupid postings?

As thick a skin as I have he’s now gone over the edge. This latest pathetic attempt at I don’t know what is personally offensive to me on a variety of levels, and I suspect to others as well. TR will be hearing from me…this is supposed to be a forum for professionals, and while I have no problem whatever with having a variety of threads that have nothing to do with professional topics his behavior is clearly way outside the bounds. TR will have to make a decision as to how serious they are about the type of participants they want here, or we’ll all take our business elsewhere. There’s certainly plenty of other choices.

And, for good reason.

In reply to There was an article a few months

Despite its gains in the world market, India still has an illiteracy rate of 50%.

Misdirected anger

In reply to Thank you for shopping at Kwiki-Mart..Please come again

The H1-B problem is caused by big corporations like IBM and HP who want to hire technical people cheap. It is the fault of the corporations and the Congress that the situation exists.

People coming to the U.S. on H1-B visas is in come ways comparable to citizens taking advantage of tax breaks that I don’t think should exist. I don’t get angry when my neighbor benefits from a tax break. I DO get angry at the Congress for creating the tax break.

The same thing applies to people coming to the U.S. for jobs when our own citizens are out of work. It’s not the fault of the immigrants. It’s the fault of the corporations and of the Congress who create these programs to benefit big business at the expense of the citizens.

Thanks stress junkie

In reply to Misdirected anger

That is sort of how I feel, but I think the issue goes much deeper. As a somewhat “Capatilist” society, we are following the path our forefathers set for us. If we are truly a government of the people by the people, then we the people need to make our voices heard on this and many other topics.

It is scary to think how we neglect our own, but are busy stepping in around the world. It is even worse when our government that we elected and represents the majority makes us look like world bullies by forcing our values on other cultures.

Sometimes I just want to scream “Why can’t we all just get along?”. “Why can’t we all respect each other’s way of life?” I know that is not reality, but I want it all the same.

I once read a book where the society that was built was built on one basic law – “There is no one true way”. In the book so long as one group did not cause harm/interference with another group, then their way of life was just as correct as the others. Dream, fantasy, whatever you want to call it.

You know

In reply to H-1B: Patriotic or treasonous?

I really dont know which way to turn on this. WE are the land of opprotunity and economy is supposed to be based off the best person for the job, competition improves quality. I want more opprotunity in this field since I am just starting out. So far I am being turned down because of lack of experience, not foreign competition. That sucks. I imagine that established people are in for the fight of their lives when it comes to higher IT jobs. I do feel that we as Americans want special preference, then others can have our left overs. Am I guilty too of this notion? Yeah I want my opprotunity for successful life to be easier. MAybe if we increase our quality we could be more competitive, such as training eachother rather than hording knowledge from one another to protect our own placement in companies and invest in America not just wait for others to do it. Right now I see to much “ME” and not “WE”. I dont begrudge others, but I do acknowledge that our economy is getting worst and an abolishment of middle class with a rediculous cost of living that is exponentially out of control. I think our leaders need to do what’s best for American, not themselves. Just look at the China trade deficet debocle that we are experiencing today.

You make some important points

In reply to You know

Here is my concern about this and it isn’t that we give jobs to H-1B.

1. If we want more quality in our workers, then we need to sponser them and provide the opportunities for them to learn.

2. If we can’t find them here, then by god hire someone with a little less experience and TRAIN them. Talk about missed opportunity. You pay less if they don’t have XYZ experience and you get to mold them to your way of doing buisness.

3. If you do business internationally, they by all means diversity is essential so that there is someone who can communicate effectively throughout the business.

While I worked for an international software company – all project teams comprised a diverse group from around the world to work with the project client. We always made sure that the clients culture and language was represented. We cross-trained and mentored. I actually got to learn limited Japanese, Spanish, Swedish, French, and other languages.

I don’t think we shouldn’t sponsor, but I think we shouldn’t accept it as the answer to our internal problems here in the US. I posted the article, because I am still on the fence and wanted to get other opinions about it. If you noted in the other responses I posted some alternative articles about how India (for one) is also bringing people in because they don’t have all the necessary skills either.

So, is it a 2 way street? Are we truly becoming a global community? Or are we still blinding ourselves to everything.

Don’t think its a 2 way street

In reply to You make some important points

I read an article a couple of months ago that stated CEO’s that outsurced there work had rasies over 100%. where as CEO’s that kept work here seen only a modest increase in pay of about 10 20%. As long as the CEO’s are making more money outsourcing it will continue. As far as the global community, to do that everybody has to trade evenly and that doesn’t happen with the US. Our goods are more expensive due to the outragous enconomy and inflation here. That right there puts the US in a very bad place. Also some countries have strict limits as to how much can come in to there country. Yet when the US starts to limit what comes in, the world cries foul. I have a very hard time listening to Congress and Corps complain there are not enough trained people to staff IT and we need to increase the H-1B visas. They come over here at a cheaper labor rate and get the jobs. Also there schooling cost them almost nothing. How is that fair when I as a US citizen have to pay full price for education. If there are not enough people to fill these postions then train our own people. There are millions out of work. And PLEASE some do not tell me these people are coming over here to do the work US citizens will not do that is a flat out LIE.

The CEO

In reply to Don’t think its a 2 way street

got the raise, because he cut costs and increased shareholder value.

I’m going to convert you all to socialism yet !

Yes – I have stated something similar

In reply to Don’t think its a 2 way street

In other H1-B discussion threads, I stated something similar when told that they were doing the work because 1. we wouldn’t, 2. we didn’t have the skills, and 3. IT matured beyond US desire to do maintenance on it.

Not in the US

In reply to H-1B: Patriotic or treasonous?

But I did 18 months in Holland basically addressing their skills deficit. Essentially they had a rule where a foreigner could qualify for a tax rebate (20% ! Hoohah) by taking a job at the same salary as a native would. The key point being the government(read tax payer) paid for bringing the outside talent in, and they would only do that if the native company could prove that there was no one with the required skillset available within their own country.
Not exactly applicable to your own situation I know.
Essentially the visa situation is being run on a short term economic strategy. They cost less, will work for less and at least to HR are qualified. Unless they choose to become citizens (and therefore become more expensive), the resultant brain drain and skills gap will cripple you, but that’s well after period end, so no problem.
Ther are only two real options either native labour has to compete cost wise, or the goverment has to regulate to make them more expensive.
Neither a particularly palatable option. One suspects it will have to go badly wrong before it comes right again.

Amcol, what the f**k is your problem?

In reply to Not in the US

You remind me of the a**hole neighbor that has a complaint about everything and everyone and needs to sue the entire neighborhood to feel good about himself. If you have issues with what I post, then don’t read my postings, but do not resort to arrogant censorship or as you say “taking this issue up with TR”. TR will most likely tell you that the discussion threads are open to all viewpoints and arguments, and if you don’t like it, take your crap elsewhere. I see that living down in VA has turned you into a self righteous right wing zealot who feels it is his job to dicate to others how they must behave and speak. If you like censorship, move to North Korea or some other communist 3rd world dump. Do not come on TR and attempt to “discipline” others, because frankly, we don’t give a crap. Discipline your own rugrats, not us.

Here’s my problem

In reply to Amcol, what the f**k is your problem?

Say whatever you want, however you want. I couldn’t care less. You want to come across like an obnoxious idiot…knock yourself out. You feel the need to spout ridiculous drivel…be as pathetic as you like. You feel compelled to say incredibly stupid things using foul and vulgar language…enjoy yourself.

I have two problems with you. One is that you’re a complete coward. There is no way on God’s green Earth that you’ll ever convince me you talk to people face to face the way you do here, hiding behind an alias and a remote connection. There’s no way you could because if you did someone would have killed you a long time ago. If you don’t talk this way to other people to their face, why do it here? Because you’re a coward, and I hate cowards.

The fact that the things you say and the way you say them is inappropriate for this forum goes without saying. If we wanted this kind of communication we’d be doing so on Yahoo, or some other place where the trolls congregate. Not here on TR.

The other problem I have with you is that you’re giving a lot of people the wrong impression. Those of us who’ve been around a while, either in life or in IT, know that you don’t represent IT in any way. Your communication style, your constant railing against management, your incessant whining, your attitude of total entitlement…you say you’re in your early thirties but you sound like a spoiled little brat. It worries me that people new to this business, or those just getting out of (or into) college), are reading your nonsense and getting the idea that this is what the IT industry is like, and that is of course untrue.

IT is a profession. It’s populated by professionals. People who act professionally. TR is a professional forum, just like any industry gathering. Do you act this way when you attend any of those? If you do, you get thrown out. Why shouldn’t you be thrown out of TR?

Amcol, Why are you bothering?

In reply to Here’s my problem

I’m sure you, and Maxwell Edison, and others realize that this moron is just spouting off for the attention. My kids cried when they were 4 for the same reason, so someone would pay attention to them. Your posts show that you’re a reasonable and thoughtful person. Don’t let this idiot get under your skin. I don’t think anyone believes that this guy represents IT professionals. Ignore him and he’ll go away.

You’re right, of course

In reply to Amcol, Why are you bothering?

About the moron just looking for attention. But don’t mistake my motives. My skin’s far too thick to penetrate after all these years. Like I said in my previous post, it does worry me a bit that there are some who are not as equipped as you and I, or Max and all the other seasoned professionals who come here, to separate the moron’s nonsense from actual fact.

I’ve managed many, many young people over the years. I was an adjunct professor in an Executive MBA program (part time) for several years, and got to teach a lot of younger people who were changing careers into IT. You probably have the same experience I do that some folks like that can be a bit impressionable, and I’d hate for them to get the wrong idea about this great profession we call IT.

BTW…I really did contact TR about the moron. It’ll be interesting to see what they have to say about it. I’ll report back.

Have you smoked some weed lately?

In reply to Here’s my problem

I take it you could use some to relax your hyperactive self. You claim you are a professor and you worry about the impression I leave on others starting off in IT? Let me ask you a question..why are you so concerned about the opinions of others? Are you on TRs’ payroll or are you a just another self righteous “yenta” that feels it it his obligation to dictate to others what is right or wrong? Do you have at least one funny bone in your body, or did mommy never subject you to humor or story books in which you laughed? Yes, I could be sarcastic and offensive at time, but if you can’t laugh a little, you should start taking Prozac like the workaholic schmuck who annoys me at work. He barely laughs and cannot find humor or pleasure in anything, and I take it you and him may be related or come from the same breed of antisocial nitwits who are on some power trip to control others. I wonder how many people actually respect you that work for you. They may pretend to respect you because you are their boss, but I bet they are all flipping you off behind your back when you are not looking.

Help my post has been hijacked

In reply to Not in the US

Do you fellas want to start your own thread or something. I thought I’d got a response on my UK centric point of view on the visa thing.

They need some quiet time alone …

In reply to Help my post has been hijacked

… to work out their problems. Maybe a relationship counselor as well. I’m hoping that they can find those qualities in each other that once brought them together. It’s a beautiful thing. I think I’m going to cry.

I’ll pay to get Amcol a hooker to shut him up

In reply to They need some quiet time alone …

It seems he isn’t getting enough poontang lately, so he takes his anger and frustration out on me.

Dude, go get laid and shut the hell up!

I like a lot of the European

In reply to Not in the US

work philosophy. It seems to be more focued on life/wrok balance. Whenever I get to work on international accounts, my ears pick up and I listen extra carefully. Then I attempt to implement things I learn – if I can sneak them in. 🙂

Not everything works everywhere, but I think by merging the best strategies on a situational basis, we could all benefit.

I’ve worked for US

In reply to I like a lot of the European

companies in europe and theres some alarming differences between the way they treat their employees. We used to call the US management the Hire ’em and fire’em crew. Everytime we broke one of our transatlantic cousins in they were gone, no continuity at all.

We have the same problem when

In reply to I’ve worked for US

European managers come here. I think it has more to do with not understanding how to run a business across borders and deal with the cultural diffences.

I worked for the US operations of a Swedish company. The Swede management always told me the US didn’t know how to do business. Now in the time the European BU’s got the product to the client (3 clients) we had successfully gone live with 22 clients (same product). And some of our client sites were not in the US.

When Swedish management came in and got rid of US management (which was very successful in the US) because we weren’t working the way they wanted, the clients went elsewhere, sued the company, and they went out of business.

You cannot run a business on your own countries terms. At least this is what I have learned. The successful situations have always been those that adapted to the culture where they set up a BU. Maybe I am wrong, but that is what I have seen and read.

Age, Education and Wages

In reply to H-1B: Patriotic or treasonous?

India has an advantage over us North Americans because their (huge) population is generally young, well-educated and willing to work at lower rates. The government has been forward-looking enough to fund education, and the graduates are just entering a relatively new, burgeoning middle-class. It’s just like our grandparents – willing to sacrifice now in the interest of building a better life for later generations. While our forebears worked with their hands and their backs, this Indian generation is working with their minds.

I think you’ll see fewer H1’s as more Indian, Malaysians, etc stay there. A hundred years ago, when the US and Canada were growing fast, not too many left. They got in on the ground floor. I also think that given the growth of outsourcing, we’d do better to limit H1’s to keep what we’ve got. But, it won’t help in the long run. It’s all driven by costs.

Treason, based on lies, and where did the money go?

In reply to H-1B: Patriotic or treasonous?

The H1B program was sold as a solution to a nonexistent problem. There is no shortage of IT professionals.

Businesses who hired H1Bs gave money to a fund to educate Americans. Where did it go? You see any of it? Ask your congressman – you will get a blank look and silence.

The ever-more-desperate defenders of this boondoggle program like to say how Americans need to increase their technical training and somehow this helps. How? By lowering salaries? How does that encourage more Americans to apply themselves? More doubletalk. It is just another front on the economic war that is being waged against America, but that the powers that be don’t want to acknowledge because then they would have to answer for their inaction.

Exactly right.

In reply to Treason, based on lies, and where did the money go?

The real villains here are the Congress and big businesses that buy the support of members of Congress to act against the best interest of the United States and its citizens. The management of these big businesses and their Congressional meat puppets should have to face some kind of criminal charges. When you sell out your country you should have to suffer consequences.

Any wonder why nationalism is high in Europe and Asia?

In reply to Exactly right.

because they don’t sell out their countries and don’t bring in as many foreign workers as we do. I agree, Congress is indeed shafting its citizens by claiming that there are not enough “skilled” IT workers. I say “horesh*t”! as there are plenty of people out of worke with adequate skills to work in today’s market. Problem is that they are married, have kids, and hold down a mortgage, so they cannot work for some rinky dinky salary that some Rajindra or Kumar from New Delhi will settle for because they will not be able to make ends meet. Second of all, if Congress feels that our workers are “unskilled”, spend the money to train them instead of siphoning our tax dollars to foreigners who don’t give a crap about us.

Yep.

In reply to Any wonder why nationalism is high in Europe and Asia?

I’ve noticed the support of all the “Free Trade” ideas has become more like propaganda than the idealist notion it once was. It is pushed hard in economics departments. I found myself in a small group that included a girl who was still in college. The topic of trade came up and she was *certain* it was true that international trade was a good thing, but she couldn’t even fathom the answer to my questions about how the trade deficit hurts us or how sending money out of the country could be detrimental or if it is still good when OTHER countries are practicing a whole different, less “altruistic”, approach.

Strangely enough, evidence shows that immigration has little impact …

In reply to H-1B: Patriotic or treasonous?

on native-born workers!

Below appears a synopsis of a research paper, from the Philadelphia Federal Reserve, published in the most recent issue of its quarterly publication [i]Business Review.[/i]

Following that is a link to the full text of the article.

After reading it, I pondered the question of how to reconcile the economic data with the fact that unemployment among IT professionals remains disproportionately high. Several possibilities immediately come to mind:

1) IT pros are much less likely to migrate;
2) IT pros are very much less willing to adjust the wages that they demand in response to the marketplace;
3) The skills possessed by unemployed IT pros are no longer as marketable as they once were; and/or,
4) IT pros face a disproportionate amount of age discrimination.

==================================================

In recent years, more than 1 million people a year have immigrated to the U.S., a level not seen since before the Great Depression. This boom is most apparent in the urban areas where immigrants tend to cluster. Given their numbers, these newly arrived residents must have some effect on local labor markets. Yet economists have been puzzled by the evidence that immigration has little impact on the wages and employment of native-born workers. So how great is immigration’s impact on local labor markets? Is it limited to markets where immigrants settle, or is it spread across the country? In [i]”How Do Local Labor Markets in the U.S. Adjust to Immigration?,”[/i] Ethan Lewis sifts through the theory and evidence to answer these questions.

[v]http://www.philadelphiafed.org/files/br/brq105el.pdf[/v]

A good article regarding immagration

In reply to Strangely enough, evidence shows that immigration has little impact …

But what about the jobs being offshored or the H1-B sponsor ship to bring work talent in. The research is too general in that it looks at immigration to the country as a whole. Of the immigrants they were measuring how many were sponsored through H1-B visa’s?

I still can’t reconcile the variants. Yes there is a lot of economic research data out there. I just haven’t found it relevant to this issue directly. Perhaps research needs to segment the immigration based on the type of immigration????? Just a thought.

Interesting analysis

In reply to Strangely enough, evidence shows that immigration has little impact …

Part of the problem with trying to figure out the impact of H-1B is the fact that it’s a highly emotionally charged issue, as well it should be. After all, we’re talking about jobs…our own jobs and those in the future for our children. Yours is a thoughtful analysis factoring out the emotion…well done.

I would add two thoughts:

1. IT employment in the US has changed fairly dramatically in the last ten or so years, in terms of who’s doing the hiring. Reducing this to pure fundamentals, IT professionals who choose to work for corporations typically have two choices, either a product/service vendor or a product/service consumer. In the period prior to 1995 the bulk of hiring was on the consumption side, but in the second half it was on the vendor side. Since then it’s moved back to the middle, although more weighted to vendor. Most folks prefer one type of employer over the other, and a lot of people who lost their opportunity to continue working on one side chose to leave the profession rather than move to the other.

2. IT hiring on the whole is down over the last five years, both on the vendor and the consumer side. The second half of the 1990’s saw a tremendous amount of innovation and new product delivery, and technology consuming corporations brought on more and more people in an increasing attempt to wring every last ounce of value out of their technology investments. In the last five years, however, the level of product advancement has declined and corporations have taken a breather on spending as they try to figure out why they spent money on all this stuff in the first place. Don’t forget also that there was a LOT of employment especially in the period 1995 through 2001 revolving around the Y2K nonsense, which no longer exists.

You put together lower hiring rates (reduced demand) and an influx of H-1B’s (increased supply) and you have economics 101…higher unemployment among IT professionals.

Beware of strange conclusions and irrelevant “evidence”

In reply to Strangely enough, evidence shows that immigration has little impact …

Hello “deepsand”…

It is difficult to obtain hard evidence that enables one to make an intelligent comment on this subject.

H-1Bs create winners and losers. How you view them depends on whether you win or lose. The vast majority of people, even in IT, are not directly affected by H-1Bs. But one job is being affected very directly right now: Software engineers. That is why mere statistical analysis done from some cubicle cannot find a problem. It is also why most people do not see this as a significant issue.

THE IMMIGRATION PAPER YOU CITE IS IRRELEVANT TO H-1Bs
I appreciate that you have done some homework before posting on this topic. I’m sure you are a good guy. However, the paper you cite is irrelevant to the H-1B issue. It is fallacious to cite it. It is called the “H-1B non-immigrant visa”. These folks did not immigrate, become permanent residents, and compete for jobs in U.S. job markets. They are not immigrants.

H-1B VISA PROGRAM
H-1B is a temporary work visa for 3 years. It can be renewed once for a further 3 years. After that the worker must return home for at least 1 year. But, there is ample anecdotal evidence that it doesn’t work that way (7).

It’s about helping U.S. corporations to be globally competitive by using cheap but skilled overseas labor here at home. The law is called the “American Competitiveness in the Twenty-First Century Act of 2000”.

By the rules, to qualify for an H-1B, the worker must be “specially skilled”, have a master’s degree from a U.S. university, be paid a government-defined salary (*), and the U.S. corporation must claim that they cannot find a qualified worker in the U.S.

(*) The government-defined salary is a minimum $60K and the “prevailing wage”. Defining the “prevailing wage” is a problem, especially if there is government interference affecting it and the employer defining it! The claim about not being able to find a qualified worker is a problem too.

H-1B FRAUD
Even the Congress agrees there is a lot of H-1B fraud. In the Visa Reform Act of 2004 (November), there is a new requirement for a $500 fee per H-1B to pay for independent investigations (6). A full year of 65,000 H-1Bs means there will be a $32.5 million annual budget. That is a fair bit of investigating. The 2005 quota has been incresed to 80,000 visas.

H-1Bs ARE PREDOMINANTLY SOFTWARE ENGINEERS
The predominant use of H-1Bs today is for software engineers (3). $60K is a poor salary for a “specially skilled” U.S. software engineer who has a master’s degree. This is where the “cheap” part comes in. Such a “specially skilled” U.S. person would likely have 10-20+ years of experience, be near or in middle age, have a family and mortgage on a modest $400K home in the Silicon Valley and would go bankrupt on $60K. The “prevailing wage” for this type of U.S. worker is $80-$120K or more. I doubt H-1Bs are being paid like this.

I suggest that the typical H-1B software engineer is a bright, smart, young (<30), well-educated person from India with a mere few years of job experience and is not "specially skilled" at all.

By the way, this is no slight whatsoever on these bright young people from India. This is not their fault.

BY THE NUMBERS

1. 460,000 new H-1B guest workers entered the U.S. during the five years from 1988 to 2003. (1)

2. 57.8% of the H-1Bs were computer-related as of 2001. (2) I suspect this percentage is higher in 2005.

3. 266,000 new software engineer H-1Bs added to the U.S. during 1988 - 2003. (4)

4. 212,000 unemployed "computer and mathematical professionals" as of March 2003. (5) The actual number is higher as some are excluded from the count.

SUMMARY
There is no software engineer skill shortage in the U.S. How you view H-1B visas depends on whether you are winning or losing. By the way, the same arguments apply to L-1 visas and software engineer offshoring.

-----Steve

-------------------

Footnotes and References

(1) 461,333 new H-1B workers entered the U.S. during 1998-2003

The law specifies a quota of new H-1Bs that are permitted each year. The quota varies year to year.

Quotas
The quota of new H-1Bs for years 1998 thru 2003 were: 65K, 115K, 115K, 107.5K, 65K and 65K, respectively. Total: A maximum of 532.5K *NEW* H-1B workers

Scholarship Fee
From Dec 1998 to Oct 2003, each 3-year H-1B application or 3-year extension required a "Scholarship Fee" that was used to fund college scholarships for U.S. university students studying math and science. The fee was $500 from Dec 1998 to Dec 2000 and $1000 from Dec 2000 to Oct 2003. It has been $0 since then. Total revenues from the fee were $692 million dollars. (2)

How many H-1Bs?
Since the H-1B is valid for only 3 years, let's assume that this fee was paid twice for each H-1B worker in the U.S. during these 5 years, once at $500 and renewed once at $1000. $692 million / $1500 = 461,333 workers.

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(2) 57.8% of H-1Bs computer-related in 2001. $692 million in "Scholarship Fees".

Visas vs. Jobs
http://money.cnn.com/2003/09/11/news/economy/visa_impact/

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(3) The vast majority of "computer-related" H-1Bs are software engineers.

This is my own estimation. H-1Bs are issued for many types of workers. But, the percentage of "computer related" ones has been rising dramatically over the past 5 years or so. I suggest they are going primarily to software engineers.

Visas vs. Jobs
http://money.cnn.com/2003/09/11/news/economy/visa_impact/

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(4) 266,650 NEW SOFTWARE ENGINEER H-1Bs

266,650 = 57.8% x 461,333 From (1) and (2) above

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(5) 212,000 unemployed "computer and mathmatical professionals" in March 2003

From the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Exporting IT Jobs (Computerworld 4/28/2003)
http://www.computerworld.com/managementtopics/outsourcing/story/0,10801,80661,00.html

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(6) Visa Reform Act of 2004 (November)

H-1B fraud investigations expected to increase
http://www.computerworld.com/careertopics/careers/story/0,10801,100471,00.html?from=story_picks

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(7) References

The H-1B Equation
http://www.computerworld.com/governmenttopics/government/story/0,10801,100059,00.html?from=story_picks

Offshore Outsourcing Coverage
http://www.computerworld.com/news/special/pages/0,10911,2625,00.html?from=story%5Frules

Q&A: Author of Dude, Did I Steal Your Job? sounds off
http://www.computerworld.com/governmenttopics/government/story/0,10801,100056,00.html?from=story_package

Sidebar: H-1Bs Help U.S. Economy, Says Book Author
http://www.computerworld.com/governmenttopics/government/story/0,10801,100058,00.html?from=story_picks

Government to Add 20,000 H-1B Visas
http://www.computerworld.com/careertopics/careers/labor/story/0,10801,101603,00.html?from=story%5Fkc

Gates urges end to H-1B visa limits
http://www.computerworld.com/careertopics/careers/training/story/0,10801,101371,00.html?from=story%5Fkc

BI Vendor CEO Blasts Gates' Position on H-1B
http://www.computerworld.com/careertopics/careers/labor/story/0,10801,101601,00.html?from=story%5Fkc

Q&A: Information Builders CEO blasts Gates' H-1B stand
http://www.computerworld.com/careertopics/careers/story/0,10801,101493,00.html?from=story%5Frules

H1B.info
http://www.h1b.info/

American Competitiveness and Workforce Improvement Act of 1998
http://www.doleta.gov/h-1b/pdf/acwia_a98.pdf

American Competitiveness in the Twenty-First Century Act of 2000
http://www.doleta.gov/h-1b/pdf/acwia_a00.pdf

Department of Labor H-1B Website
http://www.doleta.gov/h-1b/

Thanks for the deep analysis

In reply to Beware of strange conclusions and irrelevant “evidence”

This is the type of information I was hoping to generate as discussion of the issue. H-1B right now hits my area of the IT market very strongly (software engineering) so I am very concerned. There are many qualified US software engineers who cannot get work for many of the reasons you elaborated on.

Recently, I was offered a salary of 59K for a software engineer position. Can we say reduction in salary? I have negotiated the position to a W2 and would still end up cutting my salary if I take the position should it be offered. The company hasn’t been able to fill it for what they want to pay. They are now looking at H1-B’s to fill it.

Your case is exactly what I suspected

In reply to Thanks for the deep analysis

Labor statistics cannot show what is really going on. Your case is exactly what I suspected.

THE MECHANISM FOR CAREER DESTRUCTION
Because the U.S. Congress has made H-1Bs available, all a company has to do is lower the offered wage. Then, they can legitimately say they cannot find a qualified U.S. worker. The “prevailing wage” _IS_ affected by the presence of H-1Bs because there is no usual competition that drives it up.

Veteran U.S. software engineers are not more greedy than anyone else. They have huge mortgages, families, and bills, just like everyone else. Bringing in large quantities of bright, young, single Indian workers at government-influenced wages wipes out the software engineering profession for Americans.

Nobody, especially Mr. Gates, should be surprised that computer science and math majors in U.S. universities are way down. After all, these ARE some of the “smart people” in America.

—–Steve

So the next logical question

In reply to Your case is exactly what I suspected

What if anything can be done? How can we convince companies they can compete if they sponsor US workers. Am I really suppose to lower my standard of living so I can remain employed in a profession I love and am good at? Do I and others like me HAVE to move to something we less like doing just to make ends meat?

I am trying to remain objective and look for solutions. However, I think we have to understand the problem/challenge before we can propose or suggest solutions. Am I off base on that?

U.S. software engineers are doomed

In reply to So the next logical question

Q: What if anything can be done?
A: Nothing I can think of that will be successful.

Q: How can we convince companies they can compete if they sponsor US workers.
A: The competition is going offshore and/or hiring cheap foreign onshore workers. Companies must match what their competition is doing in order to compete.

Q: Am I really suppose to lower my standard of living so I can remain employed in a profession I love and am good at?
A: Yes. (sorry)

Q: Do I and others like me HAVE to move to something we less like doing just to make ends meat?
A: Yes. (sorry)

Q: I am trying to remain objective and look for solutions. However, I think we have to understand the problem/challenge before we can propose or suggest solutions. Am I off base on that?
A: Not off base at all. But, when all the signals are that the marriage is over and there is evidence of infidelity, it is foolish to keep trying to repair the marriage.

—————————

A TRAIN IS COMING
Unless we are suicidal, when a train is coming, we get out of the way. We don’t attempt to negotiate.

U.S. software engineers are doomed:

– There will still be jobs for U.S. software engineers. But…

– The rates will be much lower and will not rise. Cheap offshore and onshore foreign labor will ensure that.

– The software engineering career is never going to be the same. This is a permanent change.

Each software engineer has to make up his own mind. If you cannot accept these changes, you should get out.

One option: If you want to remain in software engineering, you might be able to specialize in something that is really difficult, or really rare, or really small. You cannot be a staff software engineer in some internal department and thrive anymore. Those days are gone forever.

THIS IS A BROAD POLITICAL ISSUE
If you look at this broadly, the same thing has happened to many categories of U.S. occupations over the years. Various factors have brought about these changes. Why didn’t American politics stop it? Because the people who benefitted from the changes greatly outnumbered those who were hurt. Now it is the software engineer’s turn.

– Medical Doctors: Used to be independent and self-employed. Now many are employees of HMOs at much lower pay. Or, they have been forced to accept much lower PPO rates and have remained “independent”.

– Manufacturing: Jobs and factories are rapidly leaving the U.S. to low-cost locations all over the globe.

– Textiles and garments: Do you know anyone who does this in the U.S. anymore? This used to be a big industry.

– WalMart, Costco, Home Depot: Small shops and stores are in big trouble.

BRIDGES
When we build a bridge so we can get across a canyon, we must remember that people on the other side can then cross over the other way. That is why, during a war, bridges are some of the first targets taken out. What are the bridges that affect us in this case?

– “Free trade” agreements.

– The global high-speed Internet.

H-1Bs and “Sea-Code.com” (*) are inventions that attempt to help solve problems created by poorly-negotiated “free trade” agreements. If these trade agreements properly took into consideration the differences between the trading countries, the affected U.S. workers and industries would not suffer so much. What are the differences? Cost of living. Standard of living. Labor laws. Unions. Benefits. Courts and legal process. Etc. Etc. Etc. Many of these are the differences that make America and other countries a great place.

Option: Quit software engineering, become a politician, and try to change the world (just mentioning, not recommending).

—–Steve

———————–

(*) Sea-Code.com

Spell it correctly! It’s SweatSHIP, not SweatSHOP.
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=6&threadID=173653&start=0

Excellent post

In reply to Beware of strange conclusions and irrelevant “evidence”

Thanks for taking the time to research this subject and to organize that information into such an excellent report.

You’re welcome!

In reply to Excellent post

You are welcome sir/madam. It’s nice to be appreciated!

—–Steve

I think that you misunderstand both my position, and the problem.

In reply to Beware of strange conclusions and irrelevant “evidence”

Firstly, understand that I am here neither advocating nor defending the H1-B.

Secondly, know that I do believe that it is being abused by some, who see it as a means for obtaining labor a a reduced cost.

That being said, there still remains the question of how it is that a disproportionate number of IT pros. have [i]failed to adapt[/i] to current market forces.

To simply claim that they have been displaced from their recent employment in their then present location fails to explain how it is that so many have not, as those in other occupations have, succeeded in finding other gainful employment.

In pondering this question, it should be noted that this problem began well before the burgeoning use of H1-Bs. From my own personal observations, I can say that age discrimination, evidenced by many qualified older applicants being rejected as being “over qualified,” is at least part of the problem.

Please help me understand your position and the problem

In reply to I think that you misunderstand both my position, and the problem.

Hello deepsand…

In my post/response I addressed H-1Bs, the topic of this thread. I did not address the other points you made. But, I’m interested in talking about that if you want. I want to make an effort to understand you.

—

Regarding:

“…I think that you misunderstand both my position, and the problem…”

Reply:

Please help me understand your position and what you think the problem is. It sounds like you are saying there is a problem and H-1Bs are not it.

—

Regarding:

“…Firstly, understand that I am here neither advocating nor defending the H1-B. Secondly, know that I do believe that it is being abused by some, who see it as a means for obtaining labor a a reduced cost…”

Reply:

There was/is no misunderstanding on this.

—

Regarding:

“…That being said, there still remains the question of how it is that a disproportionate number of IT pros. have failed to adapt to current market forces…”

Reply:

What market forces are you referring to? You can’t mean H-1Bs because they are a government intervention, not a market force. Perhaps you mean current conditions? IT Pros don’t adapt well to current conditions?

Disproporationate compared to what? Please explain because I’m not getting what you’re saying. Citing some examples would help a lot. Thanks.

—

Regarding:

“…To simply claim that they have been displaced from their recent employment in their then present location fails to explain how it is that so many have not, as those in other occupations have, succeeded in finding other gainful employment…”

Reply:

Is it your observation that these people are not going out and finding something else to do? Just sitting on their hands? Is that what you’re saying?

I don’t want to put words in your mouth and I’m trying to understand you. But, it appears you’re saying these software engineers should suck it up and move on. Improvise. Stop whining. And, that you observe they’re not doing that. If so, and that’s what they’re doing, I agree 100%.

But, that doesn’t change the profound thing that has occurred. They were at or near the top of their profession, at a very high income likely with very high expenses. A government intervention took that away. 266,000 cheap software engineer H-1Bs! Extraordinary!

It took a long time for them to get to that place. How can they replace that quickly? It wasn’t just a job, it was a career.

—

Regarding:

“…it should be noted that this problem began well before the burgeoning use of H1-Bs…”

Reply:

We’re clearly off the H-1B topic here, but that’s OK for me.

What is “this problem”?

—

Regarding:

“…From my own personal observations, I can say that age discrimination, evidenced by many qualified older applicants being rejected as being “over qualified,” is at least part of the problem…”

Reply:

I agree that age discrimination is a big problem for middle-age IT pros. Employers seem to want young energetic software engineers that can work all night on Jolt Cola, multiple nights in a row. But, I can’t say for certain this is really more pervasive than in other professions. And, this is nothing new. It was here before H-1Bs became an issue. Is that what you are saying? If so, I agree with you.

Also…
I suggest that the presence of 266,000 new software engineer H-1Bs during that 5-year period, and more every year, increased some employer’s efforts to lay off expensive older software engineers. So, in that sense, H-1Bs increased the amount of age discrimination. But this is just conjecture. Only the principals know for sure.

—

Regards,

—–Steve

I am suggesting that H1-Bs may be but part of the problem.

In reply to Please help me understand your position and the problem

Firstly, with regards to the matter of disproportionality, in the context used I mean that the current measure of unemployment amoung IT pros, as presented in the [i]InfoWorld[/i] article are significantly above the average measure.

Secondly, that the H1-B visa is a public program, rather than a private one, has no bearing on its being a contributor to market forces.

Thirdly, the fact that the IT profession seems not to have adjusted in response to displacement forces as other occupations have in general done evidences the effects of factors other than the displacement alone.

Fianally, that those working under H1-B visas may not become permanent residents is irrelevant; the effects of their presence is no different than that of immigrants seeking permanent residence.

That being said, we are left with the question that I posed in my original post; why has our profession failed to adjust to circumstances not unlike those to which others have successfully adapted?

And, in said post I noted several possible contributing factors; I left it to others suggest additional possibilities. I also left open to discussion the extent to which any of such might contribute to the present circumstances re. unemployment among IT pros.

Absent empirical data, and therefore based solely on personal observations, I will currently opine that such is the results of several factors.

1) IT pros suffer from a disproportionate amount of age discrimination, some of it owing to their being generalists, rather than specialists.

As a result of the dot.com bubble, the demand for specialists rose dramatically, with a corresponding fall in the demand for generalists; this was evidenced by a quick reading of the job descriptions in the help-wanted ads.

Many of those already employed in the IT sectors were then generalists; as they lost their jobs, they found it increasingly difficult to secure new ones in their chosen line of work. The demand for generalists has only recently begun to show signs of increasing.

… in progress; not yet complete …

Steve, I am called away unexpectedly; I’ll finish this tomorrow, Fri., 13MAY.

Results of H-1B Research

In reply to H-1B: Patriotic or treasonous?

Hello j.lupo…

I had a strong “gut feel” about the H-1B issue but few solid facts when I first read your post last week. I decided to try to put some meat behind my “gut feel” and did some research. What I found was confirmational and shocking. I posted some of that elsewhere in this thread (1)

Today I found some spot-on detailed analysis by professor Norman Matloff of the Computer Science Dept. of the University of California at Davis (2).

Here’s a quote from Prof. Matloff:

“…In Spring 2000, a major supporter of pending legislation which would increase the H-1B quota, Rep. Tom Davis (R-Va.), had the gall to say, “This is not a popular bill with the public. It’s popular with the CEOs…This is a very important issue for the high-tech executives who give the money.” (National Journal, May 5, 2000 and New York Daily News, May 3, 2000.) Rep. Davis is chair of the Republican Congressional Campaign Committee…”

Prof. Matloff’s writings and congressional testimony will tell you just about everything you need to know about the problems for U.S. software engineers caused by the H-1B visa, L-1 visa, and offshoring. This information should help you make the best decision for yourself in both the short and long term.

This is not a battle that U.S. software engineers can win. But, the loss has absolutely nothing to do with skill, work ethic, or a “labor shortage”.

Good luck to you.

—–Steve

——————–

References:

(1)
Beware of strange conclusions and irrelevant “evidence”
http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=6&threadID=173217&messageID=1766246

(2) Writings by Norman Matloff, Professor of Computer Science, U.C. Davis

Professor Norm Matloff’s Debunking the Myth of a Desperate Software Labor Shortage
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.html

Supplementary Materials for Professor Matloff’s “Debunking the Myth of a Desperate Software Labor Shortage”
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.others.html

Needed Reform for the H-1B and L-1 Work Visas (and Relation to Offshoring) by Norman Matloff, Department of Computer Science, U.C. Davis, July 24, 2004
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/Summary.pdf

On the need for reform of the H-1B non-immigrant work visa in computer-related occupations, Norman Matloff, 12/12/2003
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/Mich.pdf

Globalization and the American IT Worker, Norman Matloff
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/CACM.pdf

Debunking the Myth of a Desperate Software Labor Shortage, Norman Matlfof
Testimony to the U.S. House Judiciary Committee Subcommitte on Immigration, presented 4/21/1998, Updated 12/9/2002
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.pdf
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html

Johnny can so program, by Norman Matloff
http://techrepublic.com.com/2100-3513-5702889.html

Biographical Sketch, Norman Matloff, Prof. of Computer Science, U.C. Davis
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/matloff.html

Steve – I thank you from the very bottom, middle, and top of my heart

In reply to Results of H-1B Research

I can’t thank you enough. I am actually familiar with Prof. Matloff. I am also familiar with the legislation. You only confirmed what I have suspected. It is a real shame because I think quality is going down due to this.

I am in the middle of some research right now, but that is the next project I am undertaking (Quality of project outcome between local employees and foreign employees). Well it is a working title right now.

At any rate, I hope that I and my academic colleagues can provide real value by showing what if any influence the outsourcing, offshoring, and visa’s are having on product quality and project outcomes. It is probably not a short term study, but it is the next one in line.

Thank you again for everything. I really appreciate it.

[Author]

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