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  • #2258616

    HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

    Locked

    by kmellentine ·

    OK, I am busting it all out here and asking for your help. Are you a hiring manager? Would you hire a UOP graduate? The reason I ask is that due to the UOPs misleading tactics, I was enrolled there and graduated with a BSIT, I have since graduation been employed as a Secretary…because no one hiring believes that UOP is anything more than a degree mill. Please tell me if your company would hire a UOP graduate. I want to get a start on some hard data so I can fight this legally….I want to prove they “sold” me a bogus degree.

    Also in your opinion what could someone in my shoes do to improve their chance of getting into the IT field??

    Thanks,

    KarenM.
    If you do not want your comments public, please email me at mintlatte@gmail.com

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    • #3283187

      Competition

      by jdmercha ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      Centennial, CO? Been there, Fun place.

      Anyway, I do believe that UOP is an accredited university and not just a diploma mill. Your prolem is that you are competeing against others with degrees from MIT, Cal Tech, CU. It’s not that your degree is worthless it’s just that their degree is worth more.

      Given the choice of one person from UOP and anther from Colordao State, (all other things being equal) the CS person would win out. On the opther hand; Given a choice between a person from UOP and a HS grad with an A+ (or other certs), I’d take the UOP person.

      You may be able to do what I did. I too have a worhtless BS, but I followed that up with an MS from a quality school. Try applying to grad school at the University of Colorado. Assuming you did well enough at UOP you should be able to get into UC. An MBA from UC will open many more doors.

      • #3283124

        Agreed! There is stiff competition in IT

        by jmgarvin ·

        In reply to Competition

        I’d suggest getting your foot in the door with help desk jobs. Eat dirt for a year or two because in the IT industry at this point you need three things to get started:
        1) A degree
        2) Certs
        3) Experience

        You have the degree. You may or may not have the certs (I highly suggest getting at least one or two of the CompTIA certs, just to get in…They’ll only set you back $150 each and will pay for themselves very quickly). However, without the experience, you aren’t getting into IT (at this point).

        So, find that crappy IT job…even if you have to move, and get the experience. Get some certs under you belt with the experience and in a couple of years you’ll see that degree pay off.

        On a side not UoP is not a degree mill, even Dr. John Bear agrees with that. However, if you are up against someone with a degree in CS, you’ll probably lose. Why? Number 2 and Number 3 are against you.

        After a little experience is on the resume, the degree is just a HR hurdle to jump to get you into the interview.

        • #3230683

          Best Fit

          by papanovember ·

          In reply to Agreed! There is stiff competition in IT

          I agree that there are at least 4 things that I use to select applicants:
          1. A 4 year Degree from an accredited college
          2. Recent Certifications
          3. Experience
          4. Best Fit

          When I say “Best Fit” I mean someone who will appear to be a team player. You can all the credentials in the world, but with the wrong attitude at interview time nothing will happen! Applicants that I hire have to fit with the team that I am hiring them for…as I am interested in what the applicant can do for my company and the team that I am hiring the applicant to supplement.

        • #3200306

          Competition, Generally

          by too old for it ·

          In reply to Agreed! There is stiff competition in IT

          Here in Ohio you can’t sneeze without hitting a college or university. UOP is here in Central Ohio too, and I’m not sure what they were thinking. I can think of a 2-year state college and 7 four-year university’s (eight if you count the Branch of OU in Lancaster) within easy driving distance.

          The problem is not so much that there are too many degreed people running around. The young ones left long ago for job markets that enjoy an economy. The old ones left IT for a career ont he business side.

          The real problem is that industry has left Central Ohio, and along with it some 250,000 jobs in the past 5 years that will never be replaced.

          The last straw for me was when the politicians cut school funding in order to attract new business to Ohio. To date that hasn’t worked. Go figure.

        • #3228373

          Returning to school

          by lorddragondan ·

          In reply to Competition, Generally

          Sounds like your from Springfield.
          Yes we have many Colleges here. People go online for other reasons though. Time, travel, convience, disabilities, family. I have young kids and a wife that works. Evening daycare is not an option. Problem is some online schools are a rip-off. This taints things for all the others since some employers don’t differentiate between good schools and bad. There are differences between brick and mortor campuses and some aren’t very good. But what is a good online school? I’m thinking of going back online but finding a good school is difficult. Be sure to check out the accreditation.

        • #3228709

          Military Training

          by wingedadmin ·

          In reply to Agreed! There is stiff competition in IT

          The military is not for everyone, but if you want experience this is the place to go. Just make sure you know what job you are getting.

        • #3228579

          Anti-Military Bias

          by too old for it ·

          In reply to Military Training

          A lot of employers have torupble hiring ex-military people.

          Seems they are too honest, tend to do the “right thing” rather than screw over the customer.

          That and they don’t play the office/corporate politics game very well.

          (USMC 1974-1978)

        • #3228511

          holy cow

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Anti-Military Bias

          You just described the basis for every conflict of personality I’ve ever had with corporate management.

          US Army, 1994-1998

        • #3228480

          Dead on

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to holy cow

          No wonder the corporate world and I don’t get along so well…

          US Army 1993-1997 (US Army NG 1997-2000)

          (I was a 31C Single Channel Commo (also reclased to a 31M and 31K “by the needs of the gov’t))

        • #3228340

          No Kidding

          by sarge62436 ·

          In reply to Anti-Military Bias

          Not only are veterans “too honest” and prone to “doing the right thing”, we also have a bad habit (according to corporate clone manager types) of GETTING THINGS DONE…….in spite of all the “roadblock” policies, procedures, and processes….

          US Army 1989-1994

        • #3228326

          Uh-huh

          by ljackson ·

          In reply to No Kidding

          You can say that again.

          US Navy 1963-1985

          Other negative stuff … I’m over 50. That doesn’t help at all.

        • #3228101

          Damn straight

          by navy moose ·

          In reply to Anti-Military Bias

          I thought it was just me not dealing with office politics very well.

          IT3 US Navy Reserve 2001-2003
          SrA US Air Force Reserve 2003 – Present

        • #3228899

          Corporate Politics

          by laconvis ·

          In reply to Anti-Military Bias

          The mitilary is full of “corporate politics”. I feel that to make it through you hitch you have to play the game, ie corporate politics.

          The problem that I see with some of the military experienced people is an issue of “best fit”. Because of the strigent rules and ideals it makes it difficult for them to interact with the general office staff. Tone down the “right thing” rhetoric and work on fitting in with the non-veterans lax view.

        • #2497373

          Corporate Politics

          by michael.w.mcdougal ·

          In reply to Corporate Politics

          This is absolutely the wrong attitude to have. Being at the executive level in the military you need to focus on the mission and bring processes that will indeed enhance the ability to complete each task at hand. Empower your employees to search and bring solutions to the table and do not be afraid to state why a certain course of action will not work. Be sure to offer an alternative solution as well. If you perceive something is not right then make your stand. Never settle for the norm and remember there is no “I” in Team.

        • #2835673

          Great Advice

          by aront2 ·

          In reply to Corporate Politics

          I think Michael has some great advice here. Don’t fall into the monotonous corporate laziness. Continue the set the example. Although I continue to work for the government, I deal with folks without a military background almost exclusively. They are usually impressed with my office’s work ethic and knowledge, as well as the candid honesty in the workplace and at the big wig conference table once a week. Our director has asked to find more military talent for his kingdom. And guess where he got that idea? Thats right from our office thats full of Marines, Soldiers and Airmen. Now is your time to shine, you are lightyears ahead of the competition.

        • #3025993

          Holy S**t

          by between states ·

          In reply to Anti-Military Bias

          I guess that explains things. I’ve been treated coldly by hiring managers and had a hard time re-entering the workforce due to my pro-teamwork tendencies, not to mention my disdain of politics. Go figure.

          USAF (1998-2001)

      • #3199906

        Competition is tough!

        by jimmie.kepler ·

        In reply to Competition

        We have Univ of Phoenix graduates and others doing bachelors and masters at U of P working in our IT department. It is a regionally accreditated school. Like so many schools, you get out what you put in. I have been in my current job doing computer support since 1999. I clearly recall back in 2002 when we had one opening we had 925 unsoliciated applicates and over 100 referals from company employees. We hired a young lady who had been referred two years earlier when we had a previous opening in the department. She had interviewed then and reinterviewed this time around. Competition is tough! My manager, who use to be a support analyst working with me, but now has made manager, then senior manager applied 8 times over six years just to get his foot in the door in IT. I know when I career transitioned to IT a decade ago, during a time of lots of IT jobs, I applied at over 100 companies, went to about 20 interviews and job fairs, before I got the first real IT job. I had many I went to school with when I retrained in community college and self studied for A+ who gave up or were not willing to take the lower level, entry level IT wages. My first IT position was about a 66% decrease from the last non IT position. I still am not making what I use to. But I am working in my dream job of computer support. I know many we hire are shocked they have to work so many hours, with so much stress, and with ungrateful customers. Many have trouble with basic things like getting to work on time, getting back from lunch on time, and following company policy. Too many just want to do their own thing. Competition is tough! If this is what you are to do never give up. I go to church with several that are self-employed doing support and work part time at places like Wal-Mart while they try to get their IT business of the ground. Never give up because – Competition is tough!

        • #3200814

          Remember it’s a status thing!

          by jeffusa ·

          In reply to Competition is tough!

          Most of the time with these degrees it is just a status thing. Higher society has been using tactics like this for centuries to keep people behind. Honestly, if they don’t want to talk to you because you have a UoP degree, I would move on. You would not want to work there anyways.

          For someone like myself who has made themself something from nothing, it can be very hard to get a degree. Financial aid will cover you to go to school but they may not pay for your housing. How are you suppose to do good in school if you also have to work a fulltime job? Plus, another nasty thing I have seen is people would hit the limit for financial aid in their last year or two. What a joke!

        • #3200437

          Online degree vs. 4-year college

          by jim.zhong ·

          In reply to Competition is tough!

          I interviewed some fresh graduates with online degree and 4-year university for some entry level programmer positions. I have to say students with 4-year degree have better understanding of CS, better logical, reasoning, and programming skills. The students with 4-year university degree have gone through much tougher fundamental CS and science courses, and have had countless sleepless nights for the most basic computer programming, assembly, OS, network programming, etc :). Yeah, if you all remember how terrible but fun those are. For those people going after “Cert” with no real life experience, the “Cert” is worthless. It gets even worse if they don’t have the solid education background.

        • #3200234

          Flawed reasoning perhaps?

          by swidup ·

          In reply to Online degree vs. 4-year college

          Contrary to popular opinion there actually are well known brick and mortar institutions that offer online education, including a robust CS undergrad and graduate program. I’ll cite Regis University in Colorado, a private Jesuit college as a prime example. Other well known institutions including Notre Dame, Tulane, Stanford, Villanova, Stevens Institute of Technology and others have been experimenting with online offerings as well. Would you discriminate against a degree from one of these institutions if it was completed online? Somehow I don’t think so.

          My point is that it isn’t whether or not the program is online that matters, but the quality of the education. If you elect to short change individuals based upon the fact that their degree is online rather than 4 yr physical attendance then I believe you’re short changing yourself and your organization.

          I personally have worked with several folks who have come from this background as well as some who have no formal degrees, yet years of experience. A traditional 4 yr degree is *not* proof of anything except someones ability to pay and complete a program. I’d rather have someone with intelligence, drive and a desire to do a good job with or without a standard 4 yr degree.

          I have worked in both IT and development for very large and well known software firms and have been involved in the hiring of new team members as both a team member and a team lead. I have found this viewpoint to be the same in both environs.

          As far as certs, all they prove is a base level of knowledge. They’re useful for a person attempting to enter a junior level position to prove that they at least understand some of the basics. Beyond that, they generally don’t have a lot of advantages, however there are firms that will pay you more for them. I should note there are some certification exceptions to this rule: CISSPs, CCIEs generally indicate a strong level of skill and a PMP cert can be helpful.

        • #3228592

          How do you know?

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Online degree vs. 4-year college

          Many “traditonal” colleges offer online degrees, how do you know if they physically went to the school?

          Online degrees have this strange love/hate relationship and people don’t seem to understand that “real” schools offer them.

        • #3228551

          Online courses no easier than traditional courses

          by vcox ·

          In reply to Online degree vs. 4-year college

          I disagree wiht the statement “The students with 4-year university degree have gone through much tougher fundamental CS and science courses, and have had countless sleepless nights for the most basic computer programming, assembly, OS, network programming, etc.” That’s a misnomer. I obtained my BSIS from an accredited college attending both online and traditional courses, and the online courses were by far much tougher than the traditional ones. The value of either is determined by things like class criteria; the professor teaching the course; the school offering the course; the system used to deliver the course; and, of course, the student’s ability to learn.

          In my area (Massachusetts) the best schools all offer online courses in the IS degree programs. As far as I can tell, comanies around here do not favor traditional degrees over online degrees as there is no basis for determining one from the other.

        • #2661639

          Online Student

          by bdist ·

          In reply to Online degree vs. 4-year college

          Dear Mr Zhong. I am glad to hear from someone in a position such as yourself. I am currently enrolled through the famous online university. no names for bias reasons. The question i have is when you went to a real university were your programm courses all lectures in a room of dozens of people? Did you have to learn all the material yourself? or was there plenty of help around all the time to help you? The online courses feel like you are being rushed through a meat market and not fullfilling. Plus there is no hands on. Main point of question. 2 poeople interviewed. 1 interviewed not so good with a real degree. The other interviewed great form an online school but lacks any hands on exp. who would you choose for the position?

          Brian

      • #3200223

        Not a chance

        by microb ·

        In reply to Competition

        I personally know of three individuals who have received MIS degrees from UOP. Without question I would say that they essentially “bought” their degree, as they do not even know much more than the basic essentials of programming or the tools and techniques necessary for IT projects. I know because they routinely come to me for guidance and information. In my eyes they have given all UOP graduates a very bad reputation. I have talked to others who share this belief. I also know a former UOP instructor of MCSE classes. He tells me he was not qualified to teach any of his classes, both in knowledge and certifications, and that he just taught from the book.

        • #3226763

          There is always a change with UOP.

          by xicxi ·

          In reply to Not a chance

          Honeslty;

          In this world you will run into just about eveything. The most important thing is to Get your foot in. Once you are in, it doesn;t really matter the school you graduated from. I manager graduated from the UOP..and i believed he is an excellent manager. He is not engineer, however, he leads a whole grp of engineers including me.

          I believed one is in you, it doesn;t matter the school you gradute from. Unfortunately we live in a world that does looks at that. It is your job to prove them wrong. If you are good at what you do, it doesnt matter you show that pride very up high, and fight for your degree.

          I manager has my respect, not because he is my manager but because he knows how to lead. There are many techs in my area who know their job very well. Do i cared where they graduated from? not one bit..because they have proven to me that they know their stuff very well.

          Concentrate on getting the first step into the door.

        • #3281965

          Your right….

          by crockejw ·

          In reply to There is always a change with UOP.

          A foot in the door is always a chance to prove yourself. Of course, I worked for a large defense contractor for about 8 years, and I saw a lot of more-than-qualified people passed over for promotions, and many total suck-ups promoted when they honestly were barely functionally literate. At that job, it wasn’t what you knew, it was who you knew, and how well you knew them! So, as with all things, it is a matter of finding the right job at the right time.

        • #3226641

          MIS is not technical, tho

          by suzitech ·

          In reply to Not a chance

          A masters of IS degree is not a technical degree, though, but more like a business-related degree. It gives you rounded-out knowledge in things like managerial communication and the like. You’re expected to already have somewhat of a technical background before you attempt an MIS at any school. Frankly, most of the MS-certified people I know only know the things when a book is placed in front of their nose. None of them are capable of working in a real-world environment.

        • #3138814

          You Hit a Home Run

          by markisaaca ·

          In reply to MIS is not technical, tho

          A degree from UOP or MCSE from Microsoft does not determine the worth or knowledge of the student. Many have stated a truth that is commonly overlooked, “Knowledge is gained when an effort is given”. The greatest minds, past and present, can make knowledge available to you. You the student are task with absorbing that knowledge.

          I am a manager who has worked in the Information System field for more than 11 years. I believe most managers, including myself, believe that a degree demonstrates motivation and paints a picture of a person that seeks to improve and reinvent. A degree will usually get you through the door to an interview. Your actions during the interview will determine success or failure.

          Please continue to seek knowledge in the classroom (Brick and Mortar or Online) by way of certification (CCIE, MSCE, Network+?..) or self study. Knowledge is a vital tool. Good luck to all and have learning. Have a good evening.

        • #3228548

          Don’t group us all in with the jerks

          by gralfus ·

          In reply to Not a chance

          I am a graduate of UOP, and the most frustrating part (outside of a couple of incompetent instructors) was the group grade. Just like back in high-school, there were people who work hard and others who coast in on the work of others. I only had a few such experiences, but they were frustrating. And the person who graduates with such behavior still has the same degree I have.

          So the degree is a starting point, but in any interview you should ask pertinent questions to see if the candidate knows his/her stuff, as opposed to just seeing UOP and deciding against the candidate.

        • #3204625

          Not a chance?????

          by vpomar ·

          In reply to Not a chance

          I am really sorry you had that experience with those graduates from UoP, but the fact is that you take out of any school, what you put into it. Are all UoP grads geniuses? NO, are all of them unqualified? No.
          As I posted in a previous note, I would hire any UoP grad who shows me he/she had plenty of experience within IT. UoP enhances your knowledge, but if you go to UoP expecting to learn about IT and had no previous experience in the field, then you are not going to benefit from it. I wish UoP would make that distinction very clear before they enroll students in their classes.
          Have experience in IT? have a degree from UoP? yes, I would hire you (if I had any openings that is 🙂 ), but I certainly would.

    • #3283158

      Not sure if we would hire a UOP grad…

      by fungus-among-us ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      but our agency did agree to “reimburse” a former co-worker if she received a degree and maintained a 3.25 (equivalent or higher) grade.

      I’m assuming that we would hire, since we did agree to reimburse… they must have some form of accredidation (sp). The only problem was… the person taking the online courses, never did her own work… she asked the techs here to “help” her. I refused, but others didn’t. Long story short, this person ended up being terminated for illegal/improper use of her work PC. I don’t think she ever finished her program from UOP, and the last I heard, she was living with a 3 time loser, and his 7 kids from 4 different mothers. Don’t know, but in her current situation, don’t think a degree from UOP would have mattered anyway.

      Good Luck in your pursuits.

      • #3200438

        Not sure if we would hire a UOP grad

        by rferrer61 ·

        In reply to Not sure if we would hire a UOP grad…

        The case scenario you described is sad. We are talking about a person who was trying to get hired because the financial reward and not because the love for the IT field. Yes, 99% of the time, a person like the one you described , cheating the system, ends on the unemployment line.
        I am an Assistant Manager and I have done some hiring for my team. I would hire a UOP graduate because I am just finishing a Master on IT/Management myself. The UOP course is very interactive and fills you with a lot of good information. The instructors keep you motivated and help you getting the latest information available in relation to the class you are taking. I learned a lot myself during the Master and I think is a good virtual environment. I was in class with people from abroad, from the Navy, from Lockheed Martin, from NASA, and met in class guys working on military missions. I respect the UOP graduates very much but of course, like everybody stated, previous experience and certifications also count.

        Regards,

        Roger

      • #3282178

        The Facts and Only The Facts

        by markisaaca ·

        In reply to Not sure if we would hire a UOP grad…

        What does a person?s human flaws have to do with UOP? Her character would have been the same whether she attended a high or low rated college. Please state the relevant fact.

    • #3283033

      ITT Grad going to UOP

      by nuskool ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      Hi,

      I realized I was in the same situation you describe about halfway through with my A.S. degree from ITT Tech. I got a crappy job, about a year ago @$13/hr. I did my best and I just got a raise and promoted to Network Administrator, making what an entry level college grad makes (according to our school).

      I am going to UOP for my BSIT because I believe there program is better than ITT Tech’s BSISS (Information System Security).

      I think getting into any CAREER is difficult at first and don’t forget, there are people that have degree’s from even crappier colleges with bad grades that will end up getting a job somewhere.

      The reason I am going to Phoenix is because they are regionally accredited which will make it easier to get into a regular university for my masters, (as is stated above) impossible from ITT Tech.

      You should be proud that you had the motivation to finish your degree and all you have to do now is get a job in the field suck it up for a year and market your experience. I will be happy to send you a copy of my resume if you’d like. I posted it on Monster and have gotten responses from Fandango and other big companies, but at this point I feel a loyalty to my boss.

      Well, I’m off to my first day of school at UOP. I wish I had gone to L.A. Trade Tech and Transferred to USC but, you have to make the best of your situation.

      P.S. I’m only 23 so excuse me if I’m ranting about myself but, I’m just trying to encourage you not to give up, the opportunities are out there, you just have to look.

      • #3230714

        check the Masters requirements

        by madtechgirl ·

        In reply to ITT Grad going to UOP

        I strongly suggest that you check the universities you’re interested in for a Masters degree to see if a degree from UOP would qualify you for their program. Unless you get an online Masters degree from another degree mill the UOP degree may not get you anywhere. There are online degrees and community colleges that are accredited and have a much better reputation. I personally would not waste my money and time on UOP. (I’m a 20 year veteran in IT and a hiring manager, when I see UOP the resume goes straight to the trash.)

        • #3201218

          That’s pretty narrow minded

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to check the Masters requirements

          I’ve had bad experiences from grads from all kinds of different schools. Hell, even the “name brand” schools graduates some real losers. I graduated from a state funded school and I ran circles around a guy from Stanford. Which school is “better?”

          School boils down to: You get out of it what you put into it.

        • #3200483

          just a way to winnow

          by madtechgirl ·

          In reply to That’s pretty narrow minded

          It’s not that I’m narrow minded, I’m open minded and have hired many people with NO degrees in their field. I don’t put resumes with Stanford, etc. at the top of my list either. It’s just that UofP has been bogus in the past and my experience in interviewing their graduates is that they don’t have the knowledge or the skills. When I get 2000 resumes for 1 job, looking at schools as a starting place for getting through them quickly is an option. It’s not great because I might miss someone incredible but we have to cut somewhere.

        • #3200299

          2000:1

          by too old for it ·

          In reply to just a way to winnow

          You have stated the problem in a nutshell. 2000 resumes for 1 position means that you are an employer of choice, and need to be creating more openings.

        • #3226918

          “closed minded” vs. “lazy”

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to just a way to winnow

          Why bother to sort by school, then? Why not just throw away every other resume? That would reduce your stack of resumes by 50%, and it would be no less rigorous and relevant a sorting method.

          It’d be a heckuva lot quicker, too.

        • #3228649

          A way to winnow?

          by asydoriak ·

          In reply to just a way to winnow

          I have over 10 years experience in the IT field and for that entire time I have had no degree.

          I am about to complete my BSIT degree from UoP.

          What you are telling me is you would “winnow” me right into the trash because I have the degree, but if I left it off you would give me a chance?

          Sorry, but eliminating someone based on any school but keeping them if they have none is… odd.

        • #3228459

          nope you’re out too

          by madtechgirl ·

          In reply to A way to winnow?

          When the posting says a 4 year degree you would be left out.

        • #3228129

          Nice.

          by asydoriak ·

          In reply to nope you’re out too

          So why don’t you post the job with something like “Four year degree required from a school I approve of. Experience level not applicable”?

          It’s nice that, in your capacity as an HR person, you know not only the quality of education from all colleges, but how that education has been used by each potential applicant.

        • #3228587

          Wow, just wow…

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to just a way to winnow

          No wonder IT is a mess, HR is killing us.

          By killing off UoP grads and probably other, you are limiting your canidate pool to those with the experience that might not be the best fit.

          What if you had a UoP canidate that had the EXACT experience that you needed, but a degree from UoP, would you still throw it out?

          What about the non-name brand schools that put out excellent quality (eg New Mexico Tech is the first place Sandia Labs and LANL look for scientist)? Would they get tossed in the trash too, just because you’d never heard of the school?

        • #3228500

          Hey, you saw what was said . . .

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Wow, just wow…

          It doesn’t matter how good the UoP candidate is: the resume gets thrown out. The reason is that the previous poster never notices anything on the resume on the first pass other than the school, and a UoP grad’s resume would end up in the trash before anyone really looked at it.

          Great plan. Yeah?

          Could you imagine throwing out a resume belonging to the next Turing, Kernighan, or Wozniak without ever realizing it? I guess the upside is that you don’t know what you’re missing.

          . . . unless you remember the name at the top of the resume years later, when the next Alonzo Church is making headlines. At that point, you just hope nobody else in the company remembers that you threw away his resume because he went to UoP, else you’ll end up flipping burgers.

        • #3228475

          Exactly!

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Hey, you saw what was said . . .

          I wonder how many other HR folks do this. I mean if it isn’t name brand or a school they “approve” of, then what does that mean for the canidate pool? Honestly, have you ever passed up someone that looked like a good fit with experience and skill set just because they graduate from [insert university here]

          It also drives me batty that I now have to put a keywords section on the resume just to make it past the filters. Insane. It seems like HR isn’t looking for the right canidate, but the easiest.

        • #3228415

          right

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Hey, you saw what was said . . .

          That’s exactly what they’re looking for: the easiest. HR departments are about efficient narrowing of the field to acceptable-on-paper candidates, and if they’re allowed to do interviews, those are geared toward covering the HR department’s collective ass.

        • #3228451

          HR uses tools

          by madtechgirl ·

          In reply to Wow, just wow…

          So where have you been in terms of job searching lately? Now HR uses tools that throw out resumes that don’t fit their criteria exactly before a human ever reads them. I don’t like it either but that’s what is happening unless you apply to a small company that doesn’t use an automated HR tool yet. It certainly is possible that hiring managers are missing out on some real talent.

          If a UoP graduate had EXACTLY everything I needed I would interview them but it has been my experience that none of them have. When I see a school I haven’t heard of I research it. As I said in my first post – I looked up UoP and realized it was a bullshit school.

        • #3228408

          You’re part of the problem.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to HR uses tools

          “[i]It certainly is possible that hiring managers are missing out on some real talent.[/i]”

          I can damned well [b]guarantee[/b] that hiring managers are missing out on some real talent because of HR procedures and tools. I’ve seen it happen with my own two eyes. I’ve been on both ends of HR departments (though, thankfully, never [b]in[/b] them), and their ability to sort for something meaningful has (if it ever existed) long ago atrophied.

          By the way, I’m absolutely stunned by your incredible diligence in “looking up” UoP and using that to judge graduates.

          The real world isn’t effectively represented by the crap you have spelled out on paper. Of all the corporate-employed professional fields, in fact, IT may well be the the profession least susceptible to accurate measurement by resume bullet points.

          Frankly, I could probably replace your average HR department with one webpage, one data entry operator, and two Perl scripts, for purposes of finding the next IT employment candidate — if I wanted the same results, that is. If I just wanted the same effectiveness without the exact same results, I’d just burn two out of every three resumes.

          This sort of broken-ass logic is the same sort of thing that sees Java chosen for jobs to which it is entirely unsuited, deadline deathmarches, and technical decisions made on the strength of vendor advertising copy.

        • #3228360

          HR is moronic

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to HR uses tools

          I just take the key words from the job posting and I’ll get an interview. As long as I match the key words and stupid filtering, I’m fine.

          Little hint, if you see a posting for a sys admin just put in these key words:
          Windows, Windows 2000, Windows 2003, Microsoft, Unix, Linux, Oracle, and Cisco

        • #3204496

          UT grad

          by pigpen702 ·

          In reply to HR uses tools

          So I graduated from UT with a BS in Aerospace Engineering. I guess that would be a big plus for your Austin based company!

          OOPS, this resume says “UT” but they are lying… they are from Tennessee. I guess the University of Tennessee would not suit your automated system while it does in fact have one of the best Aerospace Engineering programs in the world.

          So much for your bogus attitude, may you hire the candidates you disirve.

          Oh yea by the way, I did also graduate from UoP San Jose, CA. I guess that would count me out!

        • #3279586

          You All Have good Points

          by gerald80 ·

          In reply to Wow, just wow…

          But in the end many of the comments are part wrong in the sense that the degree no matter where it is from just gets you into the door. I live in San Diego and I have had neumerous interviews for high paying jobs. currently i am in the BSISS program and i currently work for NOKIA Mobile phones and mke well over $60k base salary. To those who care stick to your guns and understand the theory behind it and the rest will work out. In the end many will complain about the college attended but people opinions are like assess every one got’s one. P.S. my manager has a degree from MIT and I am not impressed at all just something to pump your chest and be in debt over your head.

          BR
          Gerald

        • #3226824

          Would you hire from Bryant and Stratton?

          by nuskool ·

          In reply to check the Masters requirements

        • #3228456

          for technicians

          by madtechgirl ·

          In reply to Would you hire from Bryant and Stratton?

          I would consider Bryant and Stratton technicians, computer ops, etc.

        • #3228859

          Good University is worth expense

          by laconvis ·

          In reply to check the Masters requirements

          As has been mentioned several times, it is important to check out the college or university you plan to attend. Find out about the ability to transfer credits, reputation of school, experience level of teachers, acceptance in career field. These are the same things that my friends children are being told as they are on their way to selecting schools. It is an investment of time and money and you want to make sure you get the dividends from this investment.

          There is no easy way through school. Take it from me I am working on my first degree after being gainfully employed in the IT field for 28 years. For my studies in my area I quickly ruled out both University of Phoenix and ITT Tech. One of the first clues that they were less than normal schools, when I asked for information all they did was hound me to enroll. If they were quality schools wouldn’t they have more than enough people waiting to attend their schools. After 30+ phone calls from each school I informed them they were to put me on their do-no-call list. These telemarketing tactics led me to believe they were less than credible.

          Many reputable schools offer online degrees. Personally I don’t think that you receive the broad knowledge base you would have received in a classroom lecture.

          Of course this is just my opinion.

        • #3228757

          online vs computer lab

          by jhogue1 ·

          In reply to Good University is worth expense

          Online education is the wave of the future but some things are more some suited to distance learning that others.

          Would you like to have heart surgery from a doctor who took the course online?

          Would you rather have a tech repairing your critical network who took network troubleshooting on line or a tech who walked in to class several times a week to find the lab network broken in a new and creative way?

          Of course, you would rather have someone who had spent 20+ years in the networking trenches but you are needing to fill a vacant position.

        • #3227330

          Schools and bad recruiting reps

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Good University is worth expense

          All schools have reps that are bad. You have to realize that schools hire recruiters (salesmen) and the tech folks aren’t on the front end. This goes for any school. I think you might have gotten a bad recruiter for ITT as they are supposed to help you and see if the school fits your needs.

          I can tell you that ITT in Albuquerque has a very good reputation.

          When we gratuate people with their AA, they are ready to go out and be entry level admins and they really know their stuff. They know Cisco, Windows, and Linux backwards and forwards. They know how to subnet (something I can say I didn’t know how to do out of college), setup DNS, DHCP, and a little bit of security knowledge (basic stuff).

          If they continue on to get their BS they’ll pick up stuff like snort, iptables, risk analysis, forensics, vlans, vwans, large network security, policy writing, etc.

          I’m not ITT is a good fit for all, but I know in Albuqueruque my fresh graduates will own any other fresh graduates in IT knowledge.

        • #2969250

          Narrow minded view

          by jerry8888 ·

          In reply to check the Masters requirements

          I guess I shouldn?t be surprised at this narrow minded view of UOP, and it seems that downplaying the value of this school has been a popular past time for many in the IT field. Regardless, short of name calling (degree mill), and vague comparisons (not as good as others), I have yet to hear any real valid arguments against attending an online university.

          Will some people graduate with poor skill? Sure, but this can be said of every university in the country; especially if this student happens to be good at sports.

          On the contrary, I have heard many valid points concerning the value of an online degree, such as flexible hours, instructors with ?real world experience?, and a much more demanding work ethic.

          Understandably, there are those of us who feel that online universities are a poor substitute for a more traditional university, but please try to at least prove some fact to back up your assumptions. Hint: Finger pointing and name calling just shows a lack of understands on the subject.

      • #3200331

        ITT

        by ahfs1 ·

        In reply to ITT Grad going to UOP

        Each of us have a different story, but my associates from ITT was worth every penny. I have worked for two different companies since getting my degree and these weren’t/aren’t ‘crappy’ jobs.

        Kent State will transfer ITT credits, but only tech, no requirements. I’m sure if you looked into it, you would find that there are college’s and universities out there which will transfer your credits.

        • #3226827

          I may have been a bit harsh on ITT

          by nuskool ·

          In reply to ITT

          I didn’t have a crappy job but more of a crappy boss who hired someone without a degree and expected the results of someone with a degree certs and 4 years experience.

          This lead to two things:
          1. I hated my job.
          2. It made me work harder to acquire the skills I needed for a better job.

          It turned out pretty good though because I was way ahead of everyone in my class knowledge wise when I graduated, I am now comfortable with my skill set and I learned how to tell my boss I don’t know how to do that, (sometimes I multiple times if I have to).

          ITT Tech was a good school in my opinion but it wasn’t well rounded enough for me. Not enough humanities, social science, etc. And like other people have said. You get what you put into it. If you’re doing it for a piece of paper you can frame, I don’t think you will succeed in this field (or any field for that matter).

      • #3200301

        You Hit The Nail On The Head RE: USC

        by too old for it ·

        In reply to ITT Grad going to UOP

        At the HR office, and after the personal interview: There is brick and mortar, covered in old ivy.

        Then there is everything else.

      • #2661638

        LA Tech?

        by bdist ·

        In reply to ITT Grad going to UOP

        Does all course work from LA tech trensfer to USC? Anywho i am enrolled at the BSIT/SE at UOP. i feel like i am not learning anything. I turned in a paper that a second grader would have laughed at and still got an A on it. DO you feel the same way about your courses?

    • #3200166

      Unethical Marketing

      by roger99a ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      The problem I see with UOP is their unethical use of spam email to market the company. And since this unethical behavior has been going on for years without end I would have to assume that there are serious ethical problems within the whole university.

      • #3230381

        Pay Raise for UOP BSIT Degree

        by tandchuck ·

        In reply to Unethical Marketing

        My company gave me a 10% pay raise each year that I was enrolled with UOP, paid 100% of my schooling, and gave me a $20,000 pay raise once I received my BSIT degree.
        I believe what you put into your education program is what you can get out of it. I preached to the students that were riding the coat tails of others for their team assignment grades, that a degree may get you a job nterview but knowledge will get you a job.

        • #3201211

          I thought that is how it would be….

          by kmellentine ·

          In reply to Pay Raise for UOP BSIT Degree

          I knew that at the time since I was working for a small manufacturing business that the degree would nto be important to them, and it was not.
          But it also didn’t help me get my feet in any doors. FOr the record, I was NOT the coattail rider, I was the leader of my team. Never, EVER was there an assignment that was not at least 85% my work. I put together all our presentations, my grade suffered because others in my group refused to speak or take part in some things, and I still graduated with an excellent GPA. I did say that I feel like the structure of UOP more fully supports people who ALREADY have jobs with companies where degrees stand between them and higher positions/salaries. I was not one of those people. I held the director of quality position in small company, and hoped to switch career fields as the industry we were in was already dead for the most part, and the company was set to just disappear as the owner was older and just wanted to retire.
          I have seriously tried to sell myself to the tech industry for years. It just has not worked in my favor to the degree that I think a traditional degree would have.
          Working one’s way up to a director position in a small technically dead field didn’t help me much either 🙂 but at least I loved it while it lasted.

        • #3228523

          Well a degree really isn’t worth much without experience…

          by nuskool ·

          In reply to I thought that is how it would be….

          You are right about UOP being structured for people already working looking for a better position. I am glad you are not the coattail type because that means that there is hope for you yet.

          Many people find it hard getting into their field and alot of people end up getting into a career not even related to what they study for. Not only in IT.

          I would keep applying, have you tried career development centers? Out here in Los Angeles, CA we have Worksource. They tell you to go to school, teach you math skills and how to create a resume (I’m positive you already know how to do this), but one other thing they do is help people with career changes. Staffing agencies such as AppleOne should also be able to get you a job that will get your foot in the door.

          Just some additional suggestions.

        • #2520173

          Totally agree with you !!!!

          by michael_yau_canada ·

          In reply to Pay Raise for UOP BSIT Degree

          I am currently working on my MIS/M at UoP and I think the online school is good for the people who have experience in the industry.
          To be honest with you, I did not do good in school when I was working on my Bachelor at University of Torornto. However, a person attended a brand name university does not reflect on his or her ability to work. In order to be a good worker, the worker might not need to be a smart guy but he or she must be accountable and responsible toward his or her job…

    • #3200159

      Knowlege is power

      by sdlnxgk ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      Did you actually learn anything while getting the degree??? Knowlege is power !!! I know plenty of techs who are self taught with no degree.. In the end it’s how you apply yourself to what you have learned that gets you the job!!!

      • #3200915

        but the resume gets you the interview

        by jhogue1 ·

        In reply to Knowlege is power

        If you don’t get the interview, you have no chance to sell your skills and knowledge.

        That is a prime reason that certifications and education are important. Degrees also show a potential employer that you can work within a rather rigid system and accomplish a long term goal.

    • #3284633

      Don’t read this

      by roger99a ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      You had to read it anyway. To satisfy your curiosity, this WAS a duplicate of my other post.

    • #3199205

      Disappointed UoP graduate

      by navy moose ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      I received my MBA from UoP in 2004, my difference is I did mine on ground instead of online. My fiancee is studying for her MSCIS from UoP, this program is only online.

      All things considered, we’re both dissatisfied with UoP. Among my beefs were unqualified instructors for a number of courses. Textbooks which were out of date. Assignments which were long on pages written and short on material learned. I had a finance instructor who had decent written English and non-existent spoken English. The law instructor handed out assignments which had nothing to do with business law and were graded as if we were in law school.

      Looking back, I should have gone to a local university, instead of UoP.

      Would I hire someone from UoP, that would depend on their experience and certs.

      If you’re thinking of attending UoP, look elsewhere. Plenty of “real” universities have an online program.

      Navu Moose

      • #3199086

        Great input!

        by secretgeekygirl ·

        In reply to Disappointed UoP graduate

        Thanks for your input Moose! It brings up some good points.

        Another thing that I have just started back to –
        the community college!

        Now, when I was going to “regular” college back in the Dark Ages, community colleges were only places to go to get basic skills that were lacking, and to bone up on them if you were not ready for college level work. I went to a regular university, and had to leave due to a family crisis. I went to work full time while my father recovered from heart bypass surgery.

        I will turn 48 this Sunday, and am currently attending my first semester taking courses at the local comm college! They have changed. I would not have even considered a comm college before, but when my daughter started going there last year after high school (no Univ near us, and she didn’t want to leave home yet), I was amazed at the variety of courses and training now available.

        Among them are associates degrees, various certifications, and preps for transfer to other univs for your bachelors.

        Did I mention that I was taking ALL my courses online this semester? They have a fully integrated website that allows adult learners to take courses. And, I might add, they are not for sissies! Ha! I expected a little fluffier stuff online. Not sure if it is because my brain cells are older and used now, or because they actually are hard. The work was harder than I expected, and the grading requirements are tough.

        The biggest complaint I have though is a faulty text in one class – the test answers (the tests are also online with immediate scoring results, and with two proctored tests per semester per class) are often “off”. For example, one question from a test I took just yesterday asked (paraphrased) about what the program was called that provided icons to software programs. THis was a type-in response. I answered “Graphic User Interface (GUI)”. I was counted wrong. Why? They wanted “GUI” or “graphicAL User Interface” or “graphical user interface or GUI”. So, even though I was technically right, and had included the GUI, it was in parenthesis, and I left the “al” off the first word, it was counted as wrong. ARGH!!! A similar strange question and requirement on the first test – the answer did not correspond to the textbook’s answer. (I even emailed the teacher, and quoted the text page, but did not get the test point credited for it. But, enough other people wrote to complain that she posted a note about how she would review the test results THIS time, but not on other tests! Geesh – just change the text!)

        Well, all that mess was to suggest you check out your local community college for courses that are in your line of interest before doing an online place like UoP, IMHO.

        • #3200911

          do the couses transfer

          by jhogue1 ·

          In reply to Great input!

          Community colleges can be wonderful places.

          You do need to be aware that if you intend to pursue a 4 year degree not all CC courses transfer. For example, my university will not accept accounting courses from the local CC because they do not include all the topics we teach in our accounting courses.

        • #3200574

          I had the same problem when I transferred to a 4 yr university

          by navy moose ·

          In reply to do the couses transfer

          I graduated with an AA in Business from a local community college. When I transferred to University of Massachusetts, they took credits for a lot of my courses but not the actual course itself. I had to re-take management, marketing, and an accounting course when I got to UMass.

          Navy Moose

        • #3200239

          Transfer credits

          by phranquelynne ·

          In reply to do the couses transfer

          The transferring of credits is at the sole discretion of the university/college to which you are attempting the transfer. It is not based on whether you are coming from a community college per se, but rather the type of accredidation they hold. If they are a regionally accredided(sp?) school you will have better luck, than one that is Nationally accredided(Sp again). There are some places that look beyond the type of accredidation and look to the substance of the classes as well. So always check with the school you are looking to transfer into, don’t assume they have the same standards as any other school.

        • #3228641

          accreditation is no guarantee

          by jhogue1 ·

          In reply to Transfer credits

          Even when transfering from an accredited school, credit is not automatic. We sometimes go so far as to request a course syllabus from the original school to see what was actually covered rather than what was in the course catalogue.

        • #3228585

          It’s also course description

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Transfer credits

          The problem with transfer credits is that it boils down to: if the Registrar wants to take them, they will, if they don’t, they won’t.

      • #3200913

        transcript does not show online courses

        by jhogue1 ·

        In reply to Disappointed UoP graduate

        Most regular colleges that offer on line courses or degrees do not indicate on a student transcript whether a course was face to face or on line so an employer would have no way of telling how you took a course.

        The university at which I work has the same faculty for face to face and on line courses so instructor quality is the same either way.

      • #3201143

        Had the same problem at Rutgers

        by suzitech ·

        In reply to Disappointed UoP graduate

        I graduated with a BS at Rutgers Univ. and experienced the same problems: instructors who couldn’t communicate with the students because of language, outdated books and assignments (who the heck uses PASCAL anymore???), etc. Heck, we had instructors who were supposed to teach us “programming”, yet had no idea how to do it in a UNIX-like environment, and the ENTIRE UNIVERSITY’S BACKBONE WAS UNIX BASED! I’ve walked out of a couple classes purely because the instructor introduced themselves on the very first day as “My name is so-and-so, I been in US for 2 month.”

        You’ll have these same problems no matter where you go!

        • #3200536

          Pascal? Who is Pascal?

          by falconeer ·

          In reply to Had the same problem at Rutgers

          You won?t believe this. But a major program I did for the medical industry wanted it to be translated into ?Pascal?. Not a big problem, ?cept for time. Pascal is a great teaching language. Made no mess about things ?cept structure. Which, I guess, is the whole thing ?bout programming. Also, try try some non-bloating approaches. Whoops, wrong people…

        • #3200295

          Theory vs. practice

          by suzitech ·

          In reply to Pascal? Who is Pascal?

          I should clarify that the issue was the main head instructor was teaching programming theory in terms of PASCAL, but the lesser student instructors required all of our assignments to be written in C++ or JAVA, without teaching us any of the C++ or JAVA syntax. Most of us had to scramble to teach ourselves these languages in the first few days of class, in between our already loaded coursework, without any help from the instructors. Made for an extraordinarily difficult freshman year in the College of Engineering!

        • #3226772

          Ouch! I feel your pain?

          by falconeer ·

          In reply to Theory vs. practice

          Let?s hope that people like that live in a SPECIAL place from now on.

          Let me know how you are doing in search of IT positions. The ‘best’ place, in my opinion is Atlanta.

          Know what I miss? Good old programs like, for instance, old GW Basic with all the go to?s, and the little routine that someone wrote that allowed one to renumber lines of code. ‘When you ran out of goto’s’

          Around here we have people from all walks of programming experience and all are blow away by the fact I can bring a beginning program to life using Foxpro 2.6 within a few hours. Woops, showing my age again.

          The problem is that the newer languages rapidly promote ?bloat?. They don?t really care that the routine isn?t being used they just put it in the compilation. ?just in case?.

          Take care…

        • #3226765

          No they don’t.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Ouch! I feel your pain?

          Compilers do that, not languages. What languages are you thinking of that allegedly compile unused routines rather than optimizing them out? I’m curious.

        • #3228720

          Jobs

          by suzitech ·

          In reply to Ouch! I feel your pain?

          I’ve been at the same company as an IT Specialist for 5 years now, with virtually no room for moving up. Hopefully this degree will either push certain useless people aside (or just get rid of them completely) so I can climb above “tech monkey”, though my plans are to bounce out of here, ASAP. I’d like to go back to NYC and get a little more experience in something like project management. My family is pressuring me to move to Georgia since we have some family members down there, but the humidity would kill me!

          As for BASIC, nothing like a million lines of spaghetti code to ensure job insurance!

        • #3228190

          I took a Pascal course back in High School

          by aldanatech ·

          In reply to Had the same problem at Rutgers

          Pascal in College?! These days?! That’s pretty darn outdated all right. I actually took a Pascal course in High School back in the early 90s. Even back then it was considered outdated, but still it did help me better understand how programming in general works. It seems that some Colleges today are really starting to slack off. My recommendation to everyone is to do your homework and study the schools you plan to attend in detail, no matter how popular or prestigious the institution might be. This would include examining their degree plans, course descriptions, and if possible, some feedback from current and former students. Don’t get me wrong, I know there are many really good universities out there, but since you’re going to spend all that time and money on a degree, you should at least know what you’re getting yourself in to.

      • #3200222

        I can understand your frustration, but…

        by jcitron ·

        In reply to Disappointed UoP graduate

        I’ve had the same kind of professors at NECCO and U-Mass Lowell, and not at UofP. These guys and gals were definitely not qualified to teach. This was on campus, by the way, and long before the idea of distance learning.

        In one of my computer science classes at Lowell, we never saw the professor. His assistant came in, administered the labs, and gave us the tests. The assistant did not speak a word of English, and rarely said anything at all.

        At NECCO, I had an electronics professor that gave us exams that had nothing to do with the course work. You could study for months prior to the exam, and never pass because the two were so disconnected. I think he felt bad afterwards when everyone failed because he would scale the tests. Funny… Everyone got 16 points for their name, and then the points were weird for the rest of the exam so you’d still barely pass a lot of the time. The first question would be worth 65 points, and even though it was an essay, you’d get something like 35 points off if there was some slight error. After that it was down hill so you’d fail anyway no matter what.

        I also had another teacher at NECCO evening class that treated the class as though she was teaching at Harvard full-time. We’re working folks meeting two days a week, not full-time students on a campus with multitudes of time to devote to school work! I passed this class with a decent grade, but I was completely exhausted beyond anything I felt before.

        So maybe I’ve been lucky so far. I’ve had better luck with my UofP instructors then with the ones I had at brick and desk colleges.

        John

    • #3199091

      I’ll be watching

      by secretgeekygirl ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      That will be interesting to see the responses, since so many places recommend UP. Even our local community college recommends them as an alternate way to obtain a BS/BA degree!

      Not much point, if they are considered fluff. Of course, I haven’t seen a whole lot of degrees that are worth very much! The last highly degreed goober my last company hired spent most of his time on the phone discussing his new puppy with anyone who would listen…

      • #3200294

        Fluff v. Pashi

        by too old for it ·

        In reply to I’ll be watching

        The school I’m looking to finish my degree (dual major: history & sociology) in has a stong percentage of people who actually have done what they profess to teach.

        This is a rarity, since at most brick-n-mortars the tenured professors refuse to teach a class.

        As far as the TA’s, they usually are just older students, fresh outta high school and wet behind the ears. Round that out with “I’ve been in US only two month”, and you have what you have.

        (Of course my daughter was bringing up subject matter and research in her HS history calss that the teacher didn’t have a clue about. Guess it runs in the family.)

    • #3201317

      Just get your foot in the door and then follow this advice….

      by tkagin ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      I don’t have a degree and I’ve been in IT for 10 years. I did go to college, but left early. Granted, I started in the glory days of IT. It seems harder now to get a good opportunity for people new to IT.

      I’ve worked for a 4 different companies throughout my career, and served the most senior level positions in every job I worked. I routinely interview people, and I’ll be honest, once you reach senior level positions (technical positions), a degree is rarely, if ever, noticed on a resume…once you get past an HR person. Management on the other hand is a different story.

      The best advice I can give is to just take a job where you can get your hands dirty with a lot of technology. Most of the successful college kids that are now in IT, were formerly summer interns. That’s the easiest way to get a real position out of college. Small tech companies are usually the best for more exposure, as big companies relegate more inexperienced workers to specific job functions, and let the more experienced people “play” with the interesting technology. Small companies are usually understaffed, and need cheap help. They won’t be scrutinizing your resume too much. They’d rather you have a sincere desire to learn and be self motivated. I was had my boss tell me before I interviewed someone, “If he doesn’t drool on himself, hire him”.

      Get certifications! From a technical interview perspective, these are more important than a degree.

      Network, Network, Network. IT is a small world, so keep in touch with the smarter, more successful people you meet. Eventually, you won’t have to go through a staffing company to get a new job. You’ll be able to bypass all of the other resumes, with a good recommendation.

      Always keep your resume updated and out there. Tailor it to the job your applying for. A resume is not a chronological list of what you’ve done. It’s a piece of paper used to market yourself.

      Don’t get too comfortable in a job that you put the blinders on. Solid skill sets are hard to find. If you keep up with the industry, read more than your co-workers (literally learn something new every day), you’ll be in demand. Always keep your head out there for other opportunities. You’ll make your biggest gains when switching jobs, not from annual reviews. At one point, you won’t even be worrying about money, but will be more focused on other aspects of a job to make you happy.

      After your first “get your feet wet” type of job, choose every other job by thinking about how it will affect your career. Will the position be leading a team through some large upgrade/migration process? Will you be meeting with senior management routinely for some high profile project? These are launching pads for other positions.

      Finally, don’t become specialized in a vendor or product. Become specialized in a technology and learn multiple vendors/products. Learn the other facets that interact with the technology you’ve specialized in. IT folks get religious over their technologies, however they usually can barely speak about the competing products. These people are not respected by management. An unbiased view, weighing the pros and cons and how it applies to the specific environment will always get you more respect.

      Before you know it, what college you went to, what degree you had, etc, will become irrelevant.

      • #3230690

        CERTIFICATIONS!!!!

        by geeksquad ·

        In reply to Just get your foot in the door and then follow this advice….

        A DEGREE DOES MATTER, BUT IF YOU HAVE CERTIFICATIONS IN MCSE, CCNA, CCNE, or A+, it makes a world of difference.These are the certs that matter more than any other degree. My advice is get into a company on the bottom floor, learn as much as you can, no book or training lab can replace real world experience.

        • #3230674

          It depends on the area

          by domiller0550 ·

          In reply to CERTIFICATIONS!!!!

          Certs are fine for some companies and others do not care about the cert as much as the formal education. As HR told us when hiring the last few help desk people “formal education means that someone can learn”.

        • #3228713

          Anyone can Learn!

          by wingedadmin ·

          In reply to It depends on the area

          I have taken lots of formal education classes. Including top Liberal Arts, Military Training, highly ranked CS schools, online, and ITT tech (not in that order), and I have a few certs and 5 years of experience.

          Anyone, within reason, can pass any class if they have the desire. When is the last time you actually had a discriminating professor that had the guts to say “I just don’t think you are smart enough to get by in the real world. Sure you finished all the assignments and got a 70 on the final, but rather than pass you with a C, I think I will fail you to prevent future hiring managers from giving you a shot”?

          Maybe this goes on at Stanford, MIT and others, but in all of my experience a below average learner will pass.

        • #3230556

          Phys Ed Major lost in the IT world

          by mblanton ·

          In reply to CERTIFICATIONS!!!!

          I, as well as many of you am one of these stories of experience. I just graduated college with a degree in Physical Education, teacher certification. However 2 days after graduating, my summer/seasonal employer brought me on full time as Tech Support/Help Desk analyst. This is simply because I have a legitimate 6 years worth of hands on experience in the field as well as people skills. And being that I’ve been with the company for a long time, I know everyone up through the corporate ladder and that is networking.

          Also, our Network Administrator just started a couple months before me and he graduated with a degree in Marketing and simply has Networking experience…again…a lot of it comes down to experience. Best of luck!

        • #3201147

          Certs aren’t everything

          by suzitech ·

          In reply to CERTIFICATIONS!!!!

          While I think you’re right that certs will get you into places, you won’t go too far without the extra “something”. Being able to talk geek-speak over everyone’s heads isn’t going to get to a cushy C-level job, it’s taking broader “business management” courses that will help with that. We’re talking topping out at maybe $90K as a technical person versus possibly going into 6 digits as a CTO or CIO.

          I’m currently doing the UOP online thing for an MIS degree (I’m a lowly tech monkey, though only 1 of 2 people in this company with a higher level degree), and I’ve been worried about the same exact thing. I got the same answers as were posted here, ranging from it’s a bad move to it’s fine. Ultimately, UOP IS a brick-and-mortar school in Phoenix, and online students are just taking their distance learning courses. Most “name brand” schools have the same kind of classes available, UOP just happens to have a larger variety of classes you can take.

        • #3200327

          Get Some Certs

          by jr_hearty ·

          In reply to CERTIFICATIONS!!!!

          I have an irrellevant degree from the University of Tennessee – Knoxville. When I decided to make a career out of IT, I started with getting a basic certification (A+) – I got a job at secretary rate pay because of that cert and with experience got an MCSE. I’ve been able to work my way into much better positions since then.

          In entry level IT positions, you’ll find that the certs tend to matter more than the degree. Some kcompanies, mine included, will only hire people with a degree, so that narrows down the competition a little bit.

          It would be really valuable if some colleges would include a few certification programs in with there curriculum. I’m not sure why UOP wouldn’t have already done this.

          That said, I would definitely hire UOP graduates. I don’t see any stigma attached.

      • #3226863

        Excellent advice!

        by eddie n ·

        In reply to Just get your foot in the door and then follow this advice….

        It also mirrors my own experience. Been in and around the tech field for more than 15 years, starting from high school, into university and after. The biggest stumbling block nowadays is the clueless HR department: they are the gatekeepers and unfortunately they do not really know what sort of person is really needed on the shop floor, so to speak. Give me a choice between someone with a degree from the finest school in the land with no experience, and someone who (like the uber-geek Bill Gates) for some reason or other did not finish a degree but has experience to spare, and I will take the experienced person in a flash — no matter how old s/he is.

        To add to tkagin’s advice, I would say that if possible, you should use your summers not only to intern at a smaller company (that helps your networking = meeting people, and you get more exposure to real-world problems = building up your real-world experience) but also do a cert or two during the summer as well. This way, when you graduate, you are the perfect storm: you have the degree (thus satisfying the paper chasers at HR), you have some real-world, hands-on experience (thanks to the internships), and you have an industry-sanctioned certification or two (which not only makes the HR people happy, it also makes the legal dept. happy too — a nice piece of paper that shows that you are “qualified” to touch the company’s precious hardware, thus saving the company from potential litigation).

        If there was one piece of advice I wish I had been given when I was a freshman, it would have been that. As it was, though, our dean of the faculty also gave us some spot-on advice: “Know that 80% of the stuff you learn in year one of your five year degree course will be rendered obsolete by graduation”. Moral of the story: your learning doesn’t stop once you get that sheepskin. Like the Carpenters sang, “It’s only just begun” 🙂

        Good luck!

      • #3226826

        That’s the path I took

        by nuskool ·

        In reply to Just get your foot in the door and then follow this advice….

        Well sort of,

        I started working for this small company when I had about 9 moths left for my A.S. I’ve done everything from google maps, to installing anti-virus, anti-spyware, setting up policies, putting the server in a rack whole bunch of other IT “stuff” that makes my job easier and of course helps the company. I couldn’t agree more that a small company is a good place to start for the maximum exposure to IT.

    • #3201266

      Certification

      by mr t-man ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      I earned my degree in Programming from one of the colleges that had the accelerated programs, I was working in just about every field except IT. 4 yrs ago I got a job at a company as benefits admin, a year later there were openings for helpdesk position and I jumped on it. Now I have been working in the desktop support, data analyst, and application support position for 3 yrs now,& come to think of it I am not even working in the field I went to school for(Programming). Most of the IT folks suggested that I work with, suggested I get one of Microsoft certification or certified in Programming.
      hope this helps

      • #2485013

        Certs, Degrees, Candidates and Hiring Practices

        by dspeacock ·

        In reply to Certification

        I have been in the industry for 16 years now, after returning to college and getting an Associates degree. Since then, I have advanced up the ladder in various facets of the IT world to a management position responsible for a large non-profit’s support organization. Along the way, I have kept up my continuing education (gaining another associate’s degree) as well as a couple of certifications pertinent to my career at the time.

        I’ve had prospective employers look at my AS degrees (even though they’ve specified a 4 year degree), experience and certs, and they’ve determined thatI meet or exceed the educational requirements for the position. A couple of them even considered my CISSP to be the equivalent of a Master’s.

        Nowadays, when I’m going through resumes looking for a candidate for a position, a BA/BS/AA/AS doesn’t really get your foot in the door. Neither do certs. Attitude, experience and a willingness to do what’s necessary will get you in my door.

        What gets you right OUT of the door is the failure to spell correctly or write a coherent sentence or paragraph. The number of resumes and cover letters I’ve read that contained egregious grammatical and spelling errors is mind boggling. If you can’t spell or write, I don’t care if you have a PhD, I won’t hire you.

        The order of things I look at are:
        1. Communications Skills
        2. Attitude
        3. Experience/Skills
        4. Certifications
        5. Degree or lack of one

        Just one man’s opinion.

    • #3230723

      no I wouldn’t

      by madtechgirl ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      Five years ago as a hiring manager the company I worked for then had an applicant with a PhD in Web Development from U of P! I had never heard of U of P at that time and I knew that no legitimate university had a PhD program in Web Development. I looked online to see what they were about and the classes listed were bullshit classes for the “degree” in question. We interviewed the applicant (because the recruiter was naive enough to be impressed) and needless to say she was no where near qualified for the position. She was a joke as far as the interview was concerned.
      I consider degrees from online universities and tech colleges only for positions like network admin. If you want to be a programmer you need a legitimate 4 year college degree and you need to be able to write code in specific languages. If you want to be a DBA you need certification in the particular database of choice. If you want to be a systems analyst or project manager you need a legitimate 4 year degree, certification and years of experience. If you get an online degree make sure that it is an extension of a legitimate accredidated bricks and mortar college. That’s my personal view, it does not reflect the policy of my current employer or any other employer I’ve worked with.

      • #3230645

        what is “legitimate”?

        by sr10 ·

        In reply to no I wouldn’t

        What is a “legitimate” degree? And why does a programmer or analyst need two years of core courses having nothing to do with the subject of study?

        • #3230603

          because they do that’s why

          by cajtech ·

          In reply to what is “legitimate”?

          When an IT professional finishes a task, he/she is often required to write a report on the work accomplished. He/she is also often required to quote services, understand DAQ enviroments, and report all of this to managers, engineers, quality assurance, purchasing, etc. This is why there are two years of “unrelated” education needed to be an IT PROFESSIONAL.

        • #3230591

          What you need to suceed

          by projmanager ·

          In reply to what is “legitimate”?

          I have 38 years in IT so I can speak with a little experience. While you may be satisfied to just “write code” all day, most people wish to move up the ladder, make more money, etc. Well, to do that, you have to have a sense of what your customers need. They’re not just looking for a tweak in the registry or the hotest .NET code around. They’re looking for solutions to real business questions and you need to be smart enough to discuss in their terms. Have that accounting background, learn about project planning, know what how to talk like a business person and you’ll be a success in IT. Oh, and brush up on those presentation skills, know how to use all the tools they use every day and it will make a difference.

        • #3200680

          Your missing the point

          by gibison ·

          In reply to What you need to suceed

          I completely agree that a well rounded education is necessary in a professional environment. Everyone seems to assume, however, that online degrees lack this. I have taken English, speech, business, literature all online. I have the unique perspective of having gone to 4 years of “brick and mortar” universities, as well as 3 years of online courses. I can tell you that I have received as good if not better education online then I did sitting in a class. It all comes down to the type of learner you are. Some people are auditory, while others are visual. An auditory learner would have difficulties with an online class. I think it’s also important to point out that of the three different “brick and mortar” universities I have attended, all of them offered their fair share of online courses. An online class forces a student to, well, be a better student. If you don’t read the material and do the homework you will not pass! At a traditional class the student sits in a room and listens to a teacher rehash the same information that is in the book. While the repetition may help some, in my experience this typically replaces having to read the book. Of course this is not always the case but it is the norm. In summation, don’t knock it until you’ve tried it. Knowledge is power and I don’t remember anyone ever saying “but only if it’s acquired at a four year university.”

        • #3200636

          You have proved my point

          by cajtech ·

          In reply to Your missing the point

          By using the word Your in your heading, you have proven that English, and other related courses are needed for a career. This includes, not only IT, engineering, mathmatics, etc, it in needed for a career in any feild. “Your” is a possessive form of you. “You’re” is the contraction of “You are” that you intended to use.

        • #3201231

          Interesting

          by gibison ·

          In reply to You have proved my point

          I find it disheartening that through my post all you could focus on is my misuse of a single word. Had I in fact been writing a dissertation or applying for a job, perhaps I would have taken greater care to check my grammar. I should point out that you misspelled field with “feild”. I would doubt that this has anything to do with a lack of intelligence on your part, but rather a hurried response. So maybe, just maybe I’m not ignorant because I didn’t write a rough draft and proof read my post more toughly. It?s possible both of us are unintelligent and should resign from our positions immediately. Hold the phone; before we go crazy why not give each other the benefit of the doubt and concentrate on the issue at hand. Flaming accomplishes very little. I welcome any comments directed towards the validity of my post. I also don’t mind being corrected, and you are correct I made an error and I feel foolish for making such a simple mistake. We are after all only human. Tell you what; I’ll forgive your attempt to belittle me if you’ll forgive my slight grammatical error. Deal? Moving on, my intention was to point out that I have yet to hear anything that suggests that an online school is inferior to the typical university. I was trying to give my own personal experience as a testament to the quality of an online education. While there exist varying strengths and weaknesses of both, I don’t believe an online education can be dismissed as being substandard. It is my belief that you get out of an education what you put into it. How many people do you know that went to a traditional school, partied every weekend, didn’t take it seriously, but managed to pass classes and get their degree? I’ve known far too many. Why must we place more value on where an education was received then we do on the knowledge of the individual? As far as any form of education is concerned, how often is book smarts a substitute for experience? College is learning about how it’s supposed to work, experience teaches you how it really works.

        • #3201188

          Before preaching

          by gpastorelli ·

          In reply to You have proved my point

          You should run your post through a spell check. You spelled not one but two words wrong, I believe you meant “mathematics”, not “mathmatics” and “field”, not “feild”. Before we go spitting proper forms and possessive words let’s concentrate on the “I before E except after C”.

          Sorry I don’t mean to go off topic but it pisses me off to no end when people get on their high horses because of grammer and try to invalidate someones intelligent reply to the original topic.

        • #3200297

          Lame

          by apape ·

          In reply to You have proved my point

          That’s completely uncalled for, tmeche. You are not better than everyone else here.

        • #3138730

          Of course you’re right… But…

          by falconeer ·

          In reply to You have proved my point

          ? it also helps to spell . I see you?re the same type of speller that I am.

          My spelling, in places, is ?appalling? (although I instantly recognize my, and others, mistakes) so I keep Word loaded and use it to keep mistakes to a minimum. (might be a little ?anal? but it definitely is a quirk of mine).

          Punctuation is a whole different matter though.

          ?Mathmatics? ≈ mathematics and ?feild? ≈ field, ??I? before ?e? except after ?c?? I never miss.

          See
          http://www.jimloy.com/language/ibeforee.htm
          for the ‘strangeness’.

          Isn?t English a ?strange? language?

          I?m sure there?s no need to emphasize to the originator of our ?ire? that, during more ?formal? written communications they need to make sure their spelling is im-peckable.

        • #3226773

          Well done

          by scat10 ·

          In reply to Your missing the point

          Very well said… Especially your last sentence!

        • #3201073

          Your missing the point

          by gibison ·

          In reply to What you need to suceed

          I completely agree that a well rounded education is necessary in a professional environment. Everyone seems to assume, however, that online degrees lack this. I have taken English, speech, business, literature all online. I have the unique perspective of having gone to 4 years of “brick and mortar” universities, as well as 3 years of online courses. I can tell you that I have received as good if not better education online then I did sitting in a class. It all comes down to the type of learner you are. Some people are auditory, while others are visual. An auditory learner would have difficulties with an online class. I think it’s also important to point out that of the three different “brick and mortar” universities I have attended, all of them offered their fair share of online courses. An online class forces a student to, well, be a better student. If you don’t read the material and do the homework you will not pass! At a traditional class the student sits in a room and listens to a teacher rehash the same information that is in the book. While the repetition may help some, in my experience this typically replaces having to read the book. Of course this is not always the case but it is the norm. In summation, don’t knock it until you’ve tried it. Knowledge is power and I don’t remember anyone ever saying “but only if it’s acquired at a four year university.”

        • #3200476

          online learning is fine

          by madtechgirl ·

          In reply to Your missing the point

          I didn’t say online learning was not acceptable. I said that online degrees, meaning something from UofP is not acceptable. There are plenty of “bricks and mortar” colleges that have online courses and you can in fact, get your degree by solely attending online classes.
          My point is you need a well rounded education and the skills for the job.

      • #3226774

        Your Candidate Was LYING & Why UOP is Great

        by scat10 ·

        In reply to no I wouldn’t

        I am just finishing up my UOP degree (BS/Business Magmt & Marketing) and I just scoured my student website for any information about a PhD in Web Development. I was extremely skeptical about such a degree, just as you were. Well, guess what? UOP doesn’t offer it.

        I find it highly annoying that you passed judgement on the school without doing your homework. Clearly, the idiot applicant was lying; had you done proper research, you would have discovered as much.

        By the way, UOP offers plently of brick and mortar programs and classes. Nearly all my courses were in classrooms with professors and other students present.

        In my case, I have 10 years of IT front line tech experience and wanted to take it to the next level. UOP fit perfectly within these goals. If not for what I learned at UOP, I would not have doubled my salray in the last year and a half. That’s right, DOUBLED.

        Additionally, the weekly group work (which seemed frustrating at the time), perfectly prepared me for my current position. I managed to make my mistakes in a school setting, not real life. Now I am very well equipped to work with group dynamics and varied personality types.

        The required weekly presentations have also proven to be hugely beneficial. Now, when called upon to speak in front of a group of my peers OR senior management, I feel perfectly comfortable. Thank you UOP.

        My career is making leaps and bounds because of my efforts at UOP. For that I will be forever grateful.

        ****

        Here is a list of UOP PhD programs, direct from the student website:

        Doctor of Business Administration v.001
        Doctor of Education v.001
        Doctor of Education in Educational Leadership with a Specialization in Curriculum and Instruction v.001
        Doctor of Management v.001
        Doctor of Management v.002
        Doctor of Management in Organizational Leadership with a Specialization in Information Systems and Technology v.001
        Doctor of Health Administration v.001

        • #3228450

          i did thanks

          by madtechgirl ·

          In reply to Your Candidate Was LYING & Why UOP is Great

          I did do my research as I stated in my post. At that time UoP did offer a PhD in Web Development. I also took it further and looked at the coursework.

        • #3228387

          Don’t think so

          by techmngr ·

          In reply to i did thanks

          I’m sorry to say that UOP has never offered a PhD in Web Development. You must have UOP confused with another school.

      • #3204447

        Irony – or maybe “Oh yes I would”

        by pigpen702 ·

        In reply to no I wouldn’t

        Your HR filtering system might be a database type thing, probably like PeopleSoft…

        In San Jose I attended UoP. My database courses we3re facilitated by a guy with a little background in database design… Briefly: He began with IBM, rose to the leadership within the DB2 creation team, and received a call to join a small start-up in California. This guy was employee number 16 of the little company to soon become “PeopleSoft”. So I guess my poorly qualified UoP instructor was the original database designer / developer of the very system that would kick out my resume! HUMMMMM… It must really STINK to be an HR type!

    • #3230713

      An Edge

      by geoffrey.gerlach ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      If you really want an edge, get certified in the area you want, cisco for networking, microsoft for developement, or database.

      • #3230697

        Can you do the work?

        by dmack58 ·

        In reply to An Edge

        I have one question, after receiving your degree from U of P do you believe you can do the work?

        If so, the degree doesn’t matter.
        Our very BEST tech was a music major who didn’t even bother to finish his degree.

        Whatever you decide your next step is going to be, be sure that you pick significance over security. If you have to, pick a lower paying tech job with potential then a higher paying deadend job – and don’t be afraid to job hop to build your skillset. You will find that if you REALLY love what you do the money will follow.

      • #3200688

        certification does not mean you can produce

        by jhogue1 ·

        In reply to An Edge

        Just being certified does not necesssarily prove that you can do the work. There are a lot of cram schools out there that spend a few days cramming you full of test answers. Certification only means that you can pass a test.

        A few years ago I applied for a DB manager job with the certs they wanted. They shut me into an office with a PC and a big data base. I had one hour to produce a professional looking report that explained the data to their managerial level people.

      • #3138621

        No Edge here

        by pigpen702 ·

        In reply to An Edge

        We are an Open Source house… We do have some Cisco equipment, but NOTHING Microsofty. Supercomputers and .NET don’t seem to be compatible. As successful as I am, I guess UoP was good to me.

        My years at GA Tech are still a blur, but UoP is quite clear. Adult education is not the same as K-16-18 but the student is not the same either.

        Brick and mortar vs. online: my UoP was in the classroom in San Jose with some very talented “facilitators”. I cannot express an opinion of the value of an online degree. I didn’t see any reference to “on-line” in the original post? UoP has some 60 brick and mortar campuses… The classroom is set up more like a conference room… Yup it sounds too much like business reality for the ?cert? carryin? folks.

        Business skills = significant advancement PERIOD.

    • #3230648

      Small steps..

      by nesdog1122 ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      I’m an instructor at UOP teaching in the IT track. I’m currently a network admin plus 25 years in IT.

      Many of my students think they’ll get the “big paying job” by completing this program. This is exactly what I heard when I was among the first wave of techies earning an MCSE in the 90’s. And what I heard when I earned an M.B.A. in the 80’s.

      It doesn’t work like that. As a hiring manager, I’m mainly interested in 1) how do you fit in with the culture of our organization? 2) what do you bring to the table IN EXPERIENCE?

      Every organization is willing to invest in its staff, if they are a decent company however we don’t have the time to spend months bringing you up to speed. Book learning is great but you need real hands-on background. That is what gets you hired. The degrees, certs, etc. are meaningless unless you can show some skills.

      My first job after earning an MCSE was Helpdesk, and paid nothing. But I paid my dues and worked my way up.

      Would I hire a UOP grad? Sure…provided you have more on the table than a piece of paper.

      Good luck and hang in there.

    • #3230602

      Acredited Program vs Acredited School

      by timofog ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      Hi,

      The short answer to your question of would my company hire you is probably no. We have a requirement that technical people have a degree from an acredited program. As near as I can tell UOP’s IT programs are not acredited, at least in CO. The school is acredited but that is not the same. We tend to use ABET as our criteria mainly because all the schools in our region have ABET acredited programs in Engineering and IT. One caveat is not all programs at a particular school may be acredited as it is by program not institution. One school’s mechanical engineering degree may be ABET acredited while it’s electrical engineering program may not be.

      On another subject, it looks like you have discovered one of the best kept secrets in education – the community college system. I, my wife and daughter are all graduates of the community college system. We all have diplomas that say University of Minnesota on them and have successful careers in the medical and technical fields. All of our lower division and quite a few upper division courses were taken at a community college. My wife, at age 43, decided to return to school after being in the workforce (secretarial type jobs) for 25 years. She was able to do three years of her undergrad work at the community college before transfering to the UofM to finish a degree in the medical field. It was a long road but she is much happier in her new career.

      Good luck on your journey!

      • #3230554

        comm college

        by secretgeekygirl ·

        In reply to Acredited Program vs Acredited School

        I was amazed at how much was really available at the community colleges these days! Ours is small, but also offers certification programs, in addition to continuing ed, associates degrees and transfer degree programs.

        I just started back last month for the first time in over 20 yrs. I am taking courses that are actually interesting to me and useful to me now. What I would have had a degree in way back when – when I atteneded college the first time, would have very little in common with my interests now.

        I’ve worked in the accounting field for almsot all of those 20 yrs, and I really don’t like it! LOL! So, taking courses in graphic design and desktop publishing, where my heart lies….

    • #3230599

      Experience Counts

      by alexander323 ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      A college degree means only one thing; you can learn. There has been for the last half century hype around a degree mostly due to marketing. Most of the greatest minds in history were not formally trained or were drop outs. There are some areas that need formal training such as physics and design, but there are however some that do not like IT. The experience sets you apart. I went to a big 12 school and did not find what I was looking for after two years so I started working. Next thing you know here I am. I have several certifications; MCSA, Net+, CITRIX, A+, iSeries, etc. That has always got me in the door. I am going to UoP currently and will finish with my masters at UCCS just for the season tickets (lol). UoP is accredited and fast, whats the big deal. You get what you put in. I see a lot of people that just get by. The bottom line is that when you get a UoP degree you can read, write a coherent sentence and speak to a group. You may not be the best candidate but it is a start. You have to under stand that every degree is not an “I know it all” wall paper but an “I can be taught, please give me experience” wall paper. Take heart in knowing that you have accomplished something, easy or hard, it is an accomplishment. I have worked with several people who have a BS or MS from traditional schools and all of them ended up asking me to help with something. Can you pick up a book, retain the information in it, and then apply the information from it? That is what a degree says you can do; you have the paper to prove it. Anyone who would say they based a hire on where they went to school and not on what the person can offer the company is either from the ACC or narrow-minded and it is probably not a good idea to work for them any way. Any one who hires should look at your experience and what your accomplishments are. That should be the focus of your resume not your degree. Go get the experience as the others have said and you will be fine.

    • #3230535

      From a newbie tech to you

      by islandittechie ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      Hi! I’m fairly new to IT (only been working IT for about 6 years now) and obtained my IT degree from UoP in 2004 while I was in the military. The degree itself did nothing to get me a job. What got me my first IT job is my past experience in the military and connections. As mentioned by a previous poster, I also agree that a BS/BA degree in the context of IT is simply an HR cutoff to slim down their list of candidates. Ultimately what gets you the job is the strength of your experience and the certifications you posess. I do want to add that there’s one big thing that I’ve seen many IT folks overlook and that is communication. I was so paranoid about my interview because I’m not the best speaker in the world so I took speech and communications classes before I left the military. Those classes paid off as my first job interview went smoother than glass (and I got the job to boot) Being that it was a help desk position, I used that job to further improve my communication skills while I was studying and earning certifications. After a year, I was able to move on to a Systems Administrator position and I was fortunate enough to work with the guy who interviewed me for the position. I asked him not too long ago what made him choose me over the other candidates and he told me that there were three other guys that had pretty much the same level of experience and mix of certifications that I had and what made me stand out was that I was the easiest to speak and relate to during the interview. So to answer your first question, a degree from UoP shouldn’t hurt your chances of getting a job more than it will help your chances as long as you don’t forget to back the degree up with certifications and hopefully experience (even if it’s just a simple help desk job; you’ll be surprised how much you learn working helpdesk if you really try to do your best) And to answer your second question, I suggest tapping your local community college for speech and communications classes to improve your communicative skills. It’s one thing to have the knowledge and another thing entirely to be able to communicate that knowledge to someone else.

    • #3230513

      THANKS ALL!!

      by kmellentine ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      Well, I do have hope, it would appear that my biggest problem is that I lack experience. I have learned that UOP is a wonderful program for people who are employed in their fields or have experience and need degrees to meet HR requirements. That however was not me. My experience is limited to tech support in small companies. BUT you all have given me a great deal of hope…I have checked into certifications, and ordered some self study books. I plan to rewrite my resume to capitilize on the experience I do have…(I have helped two companies chose entirely new database systems, helped them transfer information from the old to the new and get up and running including troublshooting and testing the new systems) although my title and main job responsibilities do not reflect this.
      So: the plan

      1. Get certified. (A+)
      2. Explain my experience better on my resume.
      3. Highlight how awesome it is that I can do both business AND IT, and that I LIKE working with end users.
      4. Look for help desk and entry level positions.

      Thanks all for your honesty. And your ideas. I had almost given up and decided to just head into high level secretarial 🙁
      Even though it would seem the obvious thing to do, I had avoided certs because I thought people would look at that the same way they look at my degree….I understand the cert program better now, and I do think it will be helpful.

      It was really nice to see so many helpful answers, and y’all totally helped me out of a bit of a personal slump.

      • #3230468

        From one UoP Grad to Another…

        by matt ·

        In reply to THANKS ALL!!

        Even with 5+ years of experience as a Systems Administrator, I found it very, very difficult to get a callback for interviews.

        When I got my BSIT from UoPhoenix, I was truly surprised at the amount of responses I got back. For me, getting a degree was one of the things that got me through the mechanical HR filter.

        The other thing that helped was my MCSE. Some folks will tell you that certifications mean nothing. They mean exactly the same as a college degree: I can study, I can take tests, and I can at least spell “IT.”

        I believe that you’re on the right track with chasing more certifications and looking for helpdesk positions (most of which *are* entry level). Almost every good Systems Engineer and Project Manager I’ve met has done time as a Helpdesk Technician or Support Analyst.

        Just keep your head and make sure you’re making decisions about education and job positions that make sense for your mid and long-term goals.

        Good luck, it’s a jungle out there.

        • #3230388

          Been through the same useless track at DeVry

          by julian.tang ·

          In reply to From one UoP Grad to Another…

          I know exactly how you feel. I went through the same experience at DeVry. I had classes where I knew more than our instructors and they were literally developing courses as we went through them. To me it was an expensive $20K piece of paper. As much as I am disappointed with my education from them, I did achieve what I wanted from them which was a BS in telecommunication.

          I started going there with 5 years in IT industry and already working as a sys admin at one of the worlds largest architecture firm. I saw more technology than many of the instructors had seen their whole entire career. My girlfriend on the other hand, was new to the entire field, besides using her computer at home, she had never seen a network before. While she knew at a bigger university like UCLA, etc, the education would be different, she learned a lot there because she didn’t have any knowledege of the field in the first place. I would rate Devry’s education as beginner to intermediate, but the technology you learn there is definately dated.

          As for Certifications, I agree they are just a peice of paper, I have several of them. What are they good for you ask? A few things, one is getting your foot in the door, ie through HR filtering, and showing your possibly qualified for the job. Two, if you don’t know that subject area it is a good way of learning about it and showing you understand the subject. And three, I think it helps when justifying your salary.

          My certs, degree and experience help justify why I should get paid a certain amount and its balanced by responsibilities on the job.

          At the end of the day, I find my greatest competition are people who can self-teach themselves and also have degrees and certifications.

          That’s just my 2 cents.

    • #3230498

      skill level

      by arthur.bonilla ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      It is about the skill that they bring to the job, yes!! a previous response said it is what they get and what they put into the class, absolutely yes!. A new hire must have some willingness to be humble and learn the new job. Lots of people that come in the door have their chests all pumped up that they can do this and that, but fall flat. It is a tough job trying to discern the overall skill level that a candidate brings. As a manager you have to be ready to ask the kind of questions that require a lot of research to properly identify a good candidate who will fit the particular position and run with the ball

    • #3230405

      Certificates, Experience and Performance Count.

      by newby7718 ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      As an IT Manager, I am more interested in accomplishments. Some college is essential, but certificates, experience and performance are the factors that make a difference in our shop.

    • #3230404

      Certificates, Experience and Performance Count.

      by newby7718 ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      As an IT Manager, I am more interested in accomplishments. Some college is essential, but certificates, experience and performance are the factors that make a difference in our shop.

    • #3200891

      any college, same difference

      by apotheon ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      These days, colleges in general are just degree mills (for the most part). I think college actually made me stupider.

      Stupider? Is that a word?

      • #3201241

        Only if you want it to be

        by tig2 ·

        In reply to any college, same difference

        Like funner.

        Agree completely with your point. All I got from education was how to think like the prof. What I didn’t get was how to think for myself.

        All in all, work has taught me the most and the best.

      • #3201213

        No, No, No, stupidered is the correct word

        by jmgarvin ·

        In reply to any college, same difference

        I tend to agree. Colleges, anymore, really put the onus on the student to put in a LOT more to actually walk away with a good eduction.

        It’s a sad commentary when schools like Stanford put out CS majors that have a hard time writing simple code.

    • #3200818

      Yes, From yet another UoP BSIT Grad

      by hiventur ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      I felt UoP was a mill when compared to Community College. Then I turned to the state University System for a MSIT. I had the same impression but the classes lasted longer. What really helped nail the new and better position was my persuit beyond the MSIT. Taking on Oracle and *nix honed skills not taught. Use of these skills in volunteer positions demonstates the ability. A good student does not make a good employee. A driven person will find and or make the opportunities open up. At job fairs no one seriously talked to me till I put PL SQL and that the MSIT was nearly completed on the resume.
      Advice, leverage your position into training opportunities and persue a path and keep looking for side doors.
      Keep Trying!

    • #3200810

      I probably wouldn’t, but…

      by mdhealy ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      I probably wouldn’t but then I’m in an R&D environment where everybody has at least a master’s degree or doctorate plus significant experience.

      But I think what you need to do is first determine what somebody who went to a top-notch program in your field would know, then learn whatever you need that you don’t have, then find a way to convince prospective employers you know it.

      I can’t help you much with the convincing part, but I do have a suggestion for determining how your knowledge compares with the level of knowledge the folks at a topnotch place would have: poke around the MIT website. MIT has put most of their course materials — syllabi, lecure notes, audio lectures, etc., etc. online freely available to anybody. From that you should be able to compare your background with what MIT students are expected to know.

      Good luck.

    • #3200774

      Odd…

      by dolcetta ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      I think it is odd that you wrote you were “enrolled there and graduated with a BSIT.” You don’t make it sound like getting the degree took much effort. I have had peers who worked their arses off to get a BS from UoP, so I know they are not a degree mill. While UoP has regional accreditation as an institution, they do not have programmtic accreditation. For example, their Information Technology degree is not accredited by the Computing Accreditation Commission of the Accreditation Board of Engineering and Technology. Such a lack may cause some people to question the rigor of the program. -Mike

      • #3201224

        Yess…odd…

        by kmellentine ·

        In reply to Odd…

        Well, I won’t say it was not work, because it WAS. (Not only that, but we worked in groups, and traditionally I carried my group….) In terms of the business side, I would think that any traditional university would be hard pressed to meet the level of that education.

        Here is where I struggle, while it is a BSIT, it is tech “lite”. As a newbie, I learned a lot about tech, but NOTHING compared to friends I know who did the traditional route. Our required programming class was limited to C++. The longest program I was required to write was a program for money conversion for travelers. I learned more in a single week long visual basic class in community college than I did at UOP.

        My largest problem with my degree is that I can see where I fit beautifully, I just can not make HR people and hiring managers see where I fit, and the most COMMON thing I hear is that they typically do not hire UOP grads for technical positions.

        Because I went to college later than most, unlike a lot of IT grads, I had experience as a USER on all types of systems, from cash registers all the way up to full scale manufacturing databases. I progressed in all my positions and I can see how the structure of the database can impact the company in all areas. I have experience in accounting, customer service, secretarial/admin, factory, and basically just about every other end user position where we have to deal with the database and its issues.
        Essentially, what I am saying is that I have skills, they are just more soft skills….but I think they are valuable. It is clear to me however from everyone I have talked to that to get into the soft skill positions, I have to start out in the hard skill ones, where I find myself lacking. Hopefully studying for certs and doing some more practice programming can beef up my confidence in this area.
        All I can say is that at least I excel over competition in the field I am in now. Not many secretaries can write little custom databases based on their bosses whim of the day.

        • #3201082

          They need to be reminded…

          by stan20 ·

          In reply to Yess…odd…

          Bill Gates never went to college at all, and he did better than the idiots who don’t base their hiring decisions on the INDIVIDUAL. All schools have some graduates who will excel, and some who aren’t worth bothering with.

          In this field, there are many stars who either never went to college at all or were in completely unrelated fields. The first president of US Robotics (and the best programmer in the company) was a high school drop-out. Only one of the other founders of USR had a degree in anything computer related. I know because I was one of the other original founders. And there are lots of other examples.

          These places that judge people simply by their impression of the school applicants went to would never have hired many of the best people in IT.

          I’d look at smaller companies that want someone who can perform and grow as the job grows.

          As I said before, the hardest part when you are first starting out is getting the attention of the person making the decision and selling them on your ability.

        • #3226843

          You can always…

          by dolcetta ·

          In reply to Yess…odd…

          You can always work the Help Desk for a while to prove your technical skills and mettle. The Help Desk is a great way to get your foot in the IT door. Get some great certifications while you’re there, maybe even with training and testing paid for by the company. Springboard from that to a tier 2 tech position, specialized topic of interest, or supervision/management (for which a BSIT should be of solid value). -Mike

    • #3200747

      I’ve hired programmers and engineers for a number of years

      by stan20 ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      Over the years I’ve held most every position, from Junior Electronic Technician to Chief Technical Officer and Vice President for R&D, and now I have the final say on all technical hires.

      Maybe its because of my own background (I went to the Univ. of Chicago, but dropped out after about 3 and a half years because I was learning so much more on my own), but I’ve never been impressed by either degrees or certifications.

      Some of the best people I ever hired had no degree, or a degree in an entirely different field.

      It?s very hard to tell which people will work out and which ones won’t, but there are some things that I’ve learned that seem to increase the chances of hiring a developer who will be a great asset to the company.

      The first thing I look for is a love of technology. I want people who get excited about new projects and hardly consider it work. People who can’t wait to get to work in the morning and have to be told to go home at night. These people always outperform people who just consider it a job. If people working for me aren’t happy, then they are less productive and I’m not doing my job.

      Next, I look for someone who enjoys learning new things. Technology is always changing and people who don’t enjoy learning will soon be obsolete.

      And of course problem solving ability is essential.

      Then I look at things like the ability to work with other people and communicate clearly, work experience, etc. I really don’t care what school you went to, or if you have a degree at all, if you have the qualities I’m looking for. If you do, the odds are very good that you will learn anything that you need to know (on current and future projects), and that you will be a valuable addition to the company. Then, I see my job as transmitting the company goals, making sure you have everything you need to be productive (before you know you need it), and making sure that valuable employees would rather work here than anywhere else.

      With my company degree from UOP wouldn?t hurt but it wouldn?t help either. But most other companies place more weight on a degree and I can?t say how much it might mean to them.

      The way I see it, the biggest problem you will have starting out in IT will be standing out from the crowd enough to get an interview with someone high enough up to make a decision. Its not unusual to get a hundred applications for every opening and without experience or something on your resume that will stand out its very hard to get past the HR department or whoever has the job of selecting a small number of qualified applicants who will actually be interviewed. About all I can say is don?t get discouraged. Think of it as a test of your problem solving skills! After you get some experience it does get easier.

    • #3200710

      Couldn’t agree less

      by mikebertie ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      Having had experience as a hiring manager for over 8 years, I can say emphatically that the college from which you obtained your degree doesn’t count for as much as some may indicate. I believe part of your issue may simply be that you need to sell it bit more in the resume.

      Sure, a degree from some other universities seems better on the surface, but there are other considerations. For example, you probably didn’t finish your degree on a free grant from mom and dad, but held down a full-time position while accomplishing that goal. Nothing to sneeze at.

      Also, I have some experience with that degree program itself….it is a lot of work. I don’t know about yourself, but I spent countless hours interacting with fellow students, leading small (and sometimes poorly motivated) teams to success (never received less than a 96% on an assignment in 20 classes), researching my ass off, and most importantly…proving that I know how to learn on my own….which is the way it is done in the field.

      I’ve hired more than a few software engineers over the years, and while it may not be obvious, the best, brightest, hardest working engineers didn’t even have degrees. Give me a guy or gal with heart and a mega-work ethic with a GED anytime over someone who skipped through a degree while that was all they had on their mind.

      It comes back to selling yourself better in my humble opinion. Key in on team leadership / collaboration skills, ability to quickly absorb new technologies and concepts (remember, we didn’t have 16 weeks to absorb the material….only 5, and having been through both kinds of courses, the material’s depth was pretty much the same), proven ability to successfully interact with remote team members to accomplish critical tasks (a growing need in our international world), and your personal drive to complete your degree.

      Trust me, if a potential employer can’t see the pluses in that…you don’t really want to work for them.

    • #3201170

      1994 grad of UOP

      by scifiman ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      Yes, I would hire you, Karen. That is if you were otherwise qualified. Your original post however makes it sound like you are just entering IT. That is what makes it hard. IT is just now recovering to the point where people can start job hopping again. So you’re up against some experienced people.

      I didn’t do the online courses as I happened to work at Motorola in Phoenix at the time and went to classes on campus. I was 15 years deep into IT by the time I went looking for another job. Since then I have never had anyone say UOP was a negative, and after graduation I went on to work for Billion dollar companies (Wickes Lumber, USR/3Com, etc.) as well as tiny companies.

      I will tell you though that breaking into IT can be tough in this market. Offer to intern or work for free for a month to prove your value.

    • #3201139

      Accredited school

      by suzitech ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      I’m currently pursuing an MIS degree at UOP and had the same concerns. According to the advisors I’ve spoken to, UOP is an accredited school that grades with the same grading criteria as Harvard. That means whatever grade you received at UOP should be the same grade you would have received at a corresponding class at Harvard. Whether that’s true or not, who can know, but I know that for me to get out of this low-level tech grunt position, I need business skills.

      UOP IS a brick-and-mortar school, and taking the online courses is part of their “distance learning” program. You’re supposed to learn exactly the same things as you would sitting in a room with 300 other students. The bias is because it’s an online course and that automatically constitutes the “slacker” idea in many people’s minds.

      You have the BS degree, but the IT field in general is so competitive that you need more just to get an entry level job. Get a few certifications (that seems to be the big ticket to get in the door, though everyone and their mothers now have MC-something or other), and keep pushing to up your education. The future of IT will require a Masters or MBA in addition to an IT related degree just for a basic entry level job, so just keep adding to your skill set. Not just the technical stuff, as every 12-year old now can program and troubleshoot, but the more intangible things, like project management skills, planning skills, etc. Trust me, you need a seriously well-rounded education in so many different areas to be able to progress.

      I’d eye up the companies that won’t hire you because you’ve attended UOP. That sounds like discrimination tactics to me, as you’re supposed to have the same knowledge as any other college student. How can they discriminate someone who worked just as hard as someone who went to a “real school”?

      • #3201109

        Online education studies

        by gibison ·

        In reply to Accredited school

        While some may see online learning as little more then a fad, there have been numerous studies conducted on the differences of a traditional education vs. online education. I encourage you to check out the links at the bottom of this post. Online learning is still in its infancy. Given the time to work out any kinks that may be present I believe most traditional schools will adopt online programs, if they haven’t already. Take a look at the colleges in your area. I am willing to bet most offers a number of online classes. IT more then any other profession should be the one that welcomes this trend with open arms. We are on the forefront of the digital revolution. Isn’t that why we got into this business in the first place?

        A CNET article on online education vs traditional.
        http://news.com.com/2100-1023-263035.html

        A summary of multiple studies conducted on online education.
        http://www.csbsju.edu/itservices/teaching/csic-summary.htm

        • #3200291

          Nice articles

          by suzitech ·

          In reply to Online education studies

          Great articles. I do have to admit the teaching process, while needed some getting used to, has been effective so far. I’ve JUST started pursuing my MIS degree and am 4 weeks into it, and the collaboration and working together with my “classmates” is definitely qualitatively better than what I had experienced as an undergrad. Everything is put in writing and the discussions range into so many different areas. I find that I retain information better BECAUSE we are having critical thinking sessions as a group. I certainly didn’t have as high a quality of discussion sessions living at school.

          It may not be traditional, but I think it works. Too a lesser degree and scope, but related in my opinion, a recent study showed small children learn better while watching tv shows that mimic conversation directly to the child (think: Mr. Rogers asking you questions and acting like he got a response). That back-and-forth reply and response system seems to work well in a learning environment for any age.

        • #3200276

          One more…

          by apape ·

          In reply to Online education studies

    • #3201066

      I have a UoP degree

      by hadg ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      I have a UoP degree and am working as an IT Director. The UoP is accredited just like other schools. Having said that, though, I know that some schools have more prestige than others. So, it is assumed that graduates from those schools have a pedigree. However, like any education, it’s what you put into it that counts. For example, I know someone who has an MIS degree from a ‘reputable’, traditional school. However, he could not turn on a computer if his life depended on it. On paper, a hiring manager would tkae them over me; but in an interview I would win out.

      If questioned about the UoP’s relevance I would use this argument:

      *It is not a traditional school where kids out of high school attend.

      *It is geared for working adults that are for the most part working in the field that they are studying.

      *The teachers work in the field they teach.

      *Typical UoP students don’t need to learn the traditional theories that the typical ‘college student’ learns.

      What the UoP attempts to do is get a degree to those people who did not have access to a traditional education when they were younger. Personally, I did not have ready access to a traditional university, so the UoP was my best option. But, it was not easy. I also did not want to attend one or two classes per week for 18 weeks. And no, I don’t work for the UoP, and no I was not fully satisfied with the whole program; but, which one is perfect? But like I said, you get what YOU put into it.

      What you can do to get into the IT field is make sure that you do have technical skills. The BSIT, like mot UoP classes, is focused on the business end. It is not really a Computer science degree. So make sure that you do have the technical skills for the job. No longer can you have broad knowledge of technology. You need to select a skill path: networking, development, security, etc. and work from there. I hope this helps, and good luck.

      • #3226866

        Bravo

        by pancho_dba ·

        In reply to I have a UoP degree

        Well said. Computer science grads still have to do a lot of OJT because their programs tilt toward the theoretical. Real life applications still have to be learned at the business site and few academic departments teach those.

      • #3228881

        getting to the interview

        by jhogue1 ·

        In reply to I have a UoP degree

        You may be right that with your UofP degree, you could win in an interivew situation but first you have to get past the HR director. Every HR person I have ever met, thinks they are overworked and too busy. They need to very quickly go thru 100 applications to pick a few to interview. On paper a traditional degree looks better than UofP to a lot of HR folks.

      • #2606717

        traditional degree

        by jasonkernan ·

        In reply to I have a UoP degree

        I have many years in the traditional colleges that we speak of. I had a scholarship to play baseball at a division 1 school. And I went there for a time . The scholarship was an academic one first and then sports… So I excelled at the college level in academics, I did not graduate from the school at the time.. Then I went on to pursue my degree at U of P. I can tell you this, I learned far more from my experience at U of P than any college or university I had been to. The curriulum that I had was right on with the curriculum that I had at the other universities. It was far more a better learning experience… Period. That may be age related, or not. But the education I got at U of P was far better than I got at state sponsored schools. I learned far more from them than I even did before. That may be from growing older but I did learn more. And I credit them to this day for my promotion in my field. I would have not got their if it was not for U of P….. Excellent education… you learn from what you put in. If you are not willing to put in much, well you might be dissapointed.

    • #3282960

      Hiring UoP BSIT Graduate

      by netposter ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      The best answer is that ?it depends? on many factors.

      I am required to interview potential candidates and to participate in the hiring decisions for applicants targeting technology roles at our firm. A degree is not a first consideration, since the most valuable experience is actual and relevant work experience in the field. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, a ?best fit? is for the company is sought since a candidate will have many responsibilities. A ?best fit? is a combination of being personable(we provide consulting services), a hunger for learning and keeping up with technology advancements, communication ability (written and oral), and the proverbial ?can do? attitude.

      What a degree confers to me is that the applicant accepted a huge responsibility and ran through it to completion whether the degree was from Harvard or the University of Phoenix Online. Other than that, I consider degrees to be more important for other types of professions such as medical or legal. Computer science information is relatively easy to obtain from the local bookstore, library, or the Internet, and most persons with sufficient initiative can become quality IT professionals through self-teaching activities.

      I am a 2005 UoP Online BSIT graduate, and I would like to provide an objective answer. In my personal experience with the university, about two-thirds of my fellow classmates were dedicated to the projects and to the program. In every class there were slackers and these slackers were discovered early on. Unfortunately, it is the slackers who tend to dilute the market value of a UoP degree. Since the university is for profit, there is incentive to reduce the admission standards to keep the enrollments up and the stockholders happy, and this allows a small percentage of students to receive a degree without contributing the same effort as more conscientious students. Should any of the slackers be hired and not work out, the university is blamed and could become a red flag for future applicants. I do not believe it is fair, but I do not blame employers either.

      The UoP Online degree is not a right fit for everyone. It was a perfect fit for me and I enjoyed going ?beyond? the course objectives, since I had roughly seven years of IT experience under my belt. Some of the real benefits are not even tangible from a high-level perspective. The BSIT degree is really a business oriented program in that it provides mostly theory on how to best utilize and align technology to meet business goals. The real emphasis in on group projects, team dynamics, understanding organizational behavior, communication, and various approaches to conflict resolution. The entire UoP process was extremely beneficial and had upped my professionalism quotient by leaps and bounds. The president of our company has commented many, many times on my growth and transformation. I owe it mainly to the constant writing of papers and applying critical thinking skills (strongly emphasized by UoP).

      As for hiring a UoP graduate, the answer is ?Yes,? based on what I had to go through to obtain my degree. However, the hiring decision is only one facet. Applicants will still need to prove themselves to ensure a good long term fit for the company.

    • #3200523

      “IT Field” is too broad–what do you want to do??

      by anniemae46 ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      First of all, anyone who does not value your efforts to actually getting an education, may not be the best prospective employer anyway. You need figure out, where to apply your BSIT; i.e., sector, trend, etc. That may require more research. “IT field” is too broad. You may have to start at an entry level, and then work yourself into other departments at a company. What else you have on your resume, can also make a difference, along with your own goals. I’ve been enrolled in their BSIT program for a few years now, hopefully finishing next year. I’ve been working the entire time, and my employer has supported me financially with an annual bonus/tuition. I don’t expect that new employers will run in my door next year– but hey, I have worked hard(!!) and gained tremendously in knowledge and resources, and this has also given me a lot of confidence. The instructors I’ve had at UOP were all very qualified, and it has not appeared to me that you can just collect a degree without making real efforts. I’d say the majority of instructors have an academic degree, many a Ph.D. or are with reputable organizations (e.g., one was an engineer from Microsoft).

    • #3200522

      “IT Field” is too broad–what do you want to do??

      by anniemae46 ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      First of all, anyone who does not value your efforts to actually getting an education, may not be the best prospective employer anyway. You need figure out, where to apply your BSIT; i.e., sector, trend, etc. That may require more research. “IT field” is too broad. You may have to start at an entry level, and then work yourself into other departments at a company. What else you have on your resume, can also make a difference, along with your own goals. I’ve been enrolled in their BSIT program for a few years now, hopefully finishing next year. I’ve been working the entire time, and my employer has supported me financially with an annual bonus/tuition. I don’t expect that new employers will run in my door next year– but hey, I have worked hard(!!) and gained tremendously in knowledge and resources, and this has also given me a lot of confidence. The instructors I’ve had at UOP were all very qualified, and it has not appeared to me that you can just collect a degree without making real efforts. I’d say the majority of instructors have an academic degree, many a Ph.D. or are with reputable organizations (e.g., one was an engineer from Microsoft).

    • #3200439

      UOP Degree

      by drb0533 ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      The degree itself is not worthless, however you may lack the hands-on experience that many hiring manager are looking for. You may need to get some certifications under your belt before they believe you know what you are doing. Additionally, try getting some experience by volunteering at your church or other non-profit organization. Good luck.

      • #3200341

        Worthless degree? No!

        by metilley9 ·

        In reply to UOP Degree

        I don’t think you have a worthless degree, but as others (here) have said, it is probably not up to par with others from better known universities, i.e. MIT, CalTech, Stanford, etc. Also as others have said, there is a LOT of competition. Are you willing to go outside the U.S., i.e. India or worse?

        What kind of work do you want to do? IT covers a broad range. Do you want to program, manage, do networking type work, help desk?

        I will assume you want to be a programmer. Have you ever heard of SAS? It is a data mining software that is widely used. You can get a decent amount of skills just by taking their software course (available from amazon.com for about $100). You can take other courses if you want to spend $2,000 per week or more.

        I would suggest going to work in a help desk position. It may not pay a lot but it will teach you valuable skills. Ten years ago, I worked for IBM as a consultant. When that position was dissolved I didn’t know what to do so I applied for a position with a 3rd party help desk company. This company supported Compaq and Hewlett-Packard PC’s via telephone. It didn’t pay much back then, but these companies pay a lot more now! I got valuable PC training that I still use today even though I am a programmer once again.

        I wouldn’t waste my time with certifications, although many companies require them or pay higher wages for them. I think they are a waste of time. I have worked with people that have a high school diploma (and nothing more) that could run circles around a Carnegie-Mellon grad with Java certifications. So it all depends on how much experience one has. Also, many companies are seeking mainframe experience. I don’t know how you would gain this other than actual experience.

        Good luck with whatever you do. As far as UOP being a “diploma mill”, I can’t answer that. I know I wrote to them several years ago asking for information and they hounded me for many months to make a decision to attend. I finally told them to leave me alone. That experience left a bad taste in my mouth. I would never attend a “school” like that! GOOD LUCK!

    • #3200302

      Don’t confuse the problem.

      by the admiral ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      If you had the BSIT degree as of last year as I have, then you know not to confuse the issues.

      Critical Thinking process would lead you to a heavy demand of off shored people and on shored people, where the off shored people win.

      The UOP degree has helped me immensly in that now I can control my course, not any one else.

      I think the problem here is the lack of feedback when you are sending out the resumes out the door. When you send out a resume and they determine that you are not a prospect, send them a survey and ask them why they believe that you are not a prospect. They and only they can tell you what is wrong – experience, education, fears, whatever – they are the best source to tell you, supposition is the enemy that rules all fears.

      • #3200281

        Survey

        by apape ·

        In reply to Don’t confuse the problem.

        I wish I had survey replies from every job I’ve been turned down for. Fact is, I have ZERO. Have YOU EVER had someone return a survey that asks why were you NOT hired? As a hiring manager, I don’t think I could fill out such a survey without putting the company in some kind of legal danger. I think getting results of the reasons you were NOT hired is a very, very tough job.

        • #3228446

          Weak arguement

          by the admiral ·

          In reply to Survey

          I think that is a weak arguement since you are telling me that you are more than likely to respond to a Manpower survey rather than answer three questions about a potential candidate.

          Since you are a hiring manager, and you have failed to provide that information, you are lacking in what your job duties are. It is your duty to let them know that you did not feel the skills/experience were a match.

          Unless you are a form feed hiring manager, then that would explain that attitude. The company is looking for A and you have A and you did not hire A, so not you have to tell A why you chose B. Plain and simple.

          It is OK. When I was doing the job search, unless it was a thick envelope, it went right into the trash.

    • #3200300

      Lot of preconceived notions and assumptions out there.

      by apape ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      I’m suprised to see a lot of folks spouting preconceived notions and posting unresearched assumptions as if they were gospel.

      Instead of posting more of my opinon, I will leave you with this link and a disclaimer: I attend UoP, and I do not work for them. I hold a neutral opinion, but I have a less-biased opinion after reading this:

      http://www.futuremagonline.com/archive/2006/Spring/1.html

      • #3226803

        Sperling also featured in FastCompany Magazine 03/2003

        by anniemae46 ·

        In reply to Lot of preconceived notions and assumptions out there.

        Sperling was also featured in FastCompany Magazine in March of 2003 — a magazine I regard highly (hope I remember the date correctly, but just look it up). The article also went behind the scene and explained the concept, such as the types of materials used, etc. UOP has been quite revolutionary with the idea of online teaching — now most are doing it.

    • #3200251

      I would hire a UofP graduate!

      by jcitron ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      Hi Karen,

      I would definitely hire a UofP grad over a lot of other people. As a current student there in the BSIT program, I see a lot of potential from the people attending.

      First of all, we have to learn to work and think independently and as a team.

      We have to deal with people from not only in the US, but from around the world, scheduling meetings around different time zones, dealing with a lot of different personalities, etc.

      Secondly, many of us have real work experience along with the degree. Geeze… There are so many little kiddies out there who just graduated, but have never worked a real job in their life. These kids are demanding too, and many of them want the benefits without the hard work that goes with them. They come to work with an attitude, and expect everything handed back to them on a silver platter.

      The course work is work-related. The last three courses I have taken have helped me in my current job. The Database Concepts class, for example, opened up many doors for me, after I mentioned this course to the IT manager. All of a sudden he had me running reports and performing data downloads off the SQL server!

      So I think, as probably a lot of others have said here, that your problem maybe experience more than anything else. If you had more work-time behind you, this may help a lot. I suggest that you look for a small company to work for, and try for a ground-up type position. I currently work for a company with around 16 employees. Yes I wear a lot of hats, but the work experience is worth its weight in gold because the different people have shown me different things that all relate back to the BSIT degree in one way or another.

      Therefore, when I graduate, for example, I will not only finally have my BSIT degree, but more than 26 years in high technology with about 15 years in IT. I am sure my skills will be a lot more marketable than many students just graduating from any school. After I receive my degree (God willing), I plan to go back for my certificates in CISCO, Microsoft, and others. After that, I plan to possibly go back to school again for teaching. I figure with my degree, the many years of work experience, and certificates, my skills will be worth more than the little kid that just graduated from college.

      So in summary, yes I would definitely hire a UofP person. We have a lot more to offer than a recent 20-something college graduate who has never set foot in a workplace in his or her life.

      John

    • #3200247

      IT depends

      by unhappyuser ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      I’d have to see if they were accredited, what was your course study and how well you did.

      Your cahnces to improve getting a job? Experience. Even if you have to volunteer somewhere or help seniors get connected, that will help.

    • #3226909

      Not Much Help

      by firstpeter ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      I don’t know that I’ll help your cause, but from my perspective that diploma is just a piece of paper. My experience has been that the diploma simply says “I was willing to spend the time to earn it” and really has no bearing on the success of someone.

      I have folks that work for me with no degrees, period, that I’d put in charge of a project long before folks that I know that DO have degrees. The attitude of the person is generally a better indicator than the diploma. All other things equal yeah – I’d take a UoP degree over nothing, I suppose, but between Cal Tech, UoP, and Duke…doesn’t matter.

    • #3226878

      Yes I’d hire a UOP Grad

      by pancho_dba ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      I am a proud graduate of their evening degree completion program. I would hire anyone who could meet the demands of that 2-year, year-round program. We did a semester’s work in 5 weeks, meeting one night a week in class and frequently on Saturday mornings in smaller study groups. My degree is a B.Sc. in Business Administration. It’s enabled me to land progressively better jobs in IT. As for their online division, I think it is valid and is appropriate for our times and technology. The average age of a UOP student is 31 so they are motivated to accomplish things, and the degree is evidence. If you’re concerned about credentialng, I suggest earning Microsoft or Cisco certification, or a cert. from other well-known technology companies. Security is a good one right now. Meanwhile, more inexpesively, check out brainbench.com. They have some free exams and vendor-specific exams, you can purchase a paper certificate for $25.00 and maintain an online transcript for free. Good luck and don’t despair. Take care, Pancho

    • #3226831

      UofP

      by jerseydave ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      I was actually talking about this and other ‘online’ schools with a professor tonight, and was told that he knows people at MAJOR employers said no, they absolutely would not. He said they don’t mnd online classes, but from a REAL university…. Real meaning they have a campus, you just happen to be taking online classes.

      • #3226790

        Interesting..

        by anniemae46 ·

        In reply to UofP

        Sometimes I think this country is insane and how fast some people will put down innovation just to defend the establishment in terms of learning.
        UOP is accredited by The Higher Learning Commission of the North Central Association of Colleges and Schools. They also have campuses all over the place. It’s just that when UOP offered a solid online program, not many others did–UOP had the process figured out early. I think that’s why enrolling with other, more established universities was not an option for many working adults. I’ve had class mates in the military working online from all around the world; something they could not do otherwise. Or, people who live in rural areas, or who were disabled, etc.
        I think anyone involved in screening prospective candidates should know more about accredited online-only learning and how it actually works. No slacking off partying some place.. In fact, it involves much discipline, collaboration and work. Perhaps many people get into these programs when they should not have if they are not fully committed. It would be a slap in the face of the faculty if the faculty would be seen as mediocre. I mean if there is a problem then it should be fixed and the process improved, but not abandon the entire idea.

      • #3228171

        HP paid for my UOP degree

        by gralfus ·

        In reply to UofP

        The whole reason I went to UOP was that HP made us get BS degrees just to keep our positions (and paid for the classes). This is a major employer (or used to be, now they are a major unemployer).

        UOP does have a real campus, they just offer complete degrees online for those who are unable to physically go to the campus.

    • #3226723

      PROMOTION MATERIAL

      by ljkinder ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      Sorry, Karen. But, some of the most prestigious companies pay TUITION REIMBURSEMENT for UOP, so I don’t think it’s because of UOP. Willingness to START AT THE BOTTOM, pay dues, work hard, work smarter, and provide solutions is how to get advancement: appreciating that advice, will tell you whether or not you are promotion material.

    • #3226654

      Parts Control Manager

      by amoore ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      I understand your dilemma. I am not in the IT field but I do expect my team members to be well established in their fields of skill. To answer your question, I would hire a person from UOP because it still takes someone with dedication to push through the hard work to graduation. However if they are applying with only the degree in their hopper and no experience, I would most likely hire the other applicant which has years of experience and no degree. My advise to you, if you really want the company to take you seriously, start taking on projects in your own time. Books you think your “boss” would want to see you reading to help you improve your chances for the promotion to IT, leave them out on your desk where he can see them. Not so much he would think you are making it obvious but enough where he might ask you about it. Then, you are smooth sailing for explaining how much you do know. Or read them at your desk at lunch time where everyone can see you. Employers want someone who is self-starting and takes initiative. Little tricks like this can make them think they made a wrong choice in your job position. They will add you to their metal list and start noticing what you do know. This is when you can start shining with your knowledge.

    • #3228372

      Absolutely

      by techmngr ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      If anyone would not hire you just because you went to UOP then you probably wouldn’t want to work for them anyway. The whole point of a completing a college degree is to get your foot in the door. You are now ‘qualified’ to enter the interview process for a given position. I am a hiring manager in a Fortune 500 company and to be honest I could care less where a person went to school. I only look to see if they have completed the prerequisites for the position. IMHO, where you went to school has zero impact on how you will perform on the job. I actually admire those who complete a degree online/part-time while working full time. It shows dedication and perseverance. I would definitely hire a UOP grad without hesitation if they met the requirements for the position.

    • #3228141

      UOP Degree

      by vpomar ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      A UOP degree is acceptable, but what you have to understand is that UOP IS NOT a technical school. I don’t know what your level of experience was before you enroll at UOP, but if you expected to go there and become an expert in IT…you went to the wrong place.
      Now, if you did have plenty of experience and got a degree at UOP, I would hire you in a second.

      • #3227632

        Business School – UOP

        by pigpen702 ·

        In reply to UOP Degree

        Two things….

        I received a BSBIS degree (BS Business Info Systems) degree from UOP 7 years ago. I did the majority of my degree in the classroom in San Jose, Phoenix, and Detroit. I was a trave3ling consultant from the Silicon Valley world and their program was fine by me. YOU get out what you put in. I was on a corporate plan so the cost was not MY issue. I did appreciate the one night / week classroom with the group study format. I worked very hard and graduated with a 3.98 GPA. I could have easily slid by with a 2.8 but that is not my nature.

        The second thing is that I already had 15 years of technical experience and was transitioning from Mechanical Engineering to IT. I became an analyst and then moved into Project Management. I will tell all of the doubting types on this post that the UOP IS instructors in San Jose were QUITE well qualified. They are facilitators, not professors. They come from industry, not full time teachers. Some could teach; some could not. They did all have knowledge, just had to adjust the method of extraction from one to the next.

        UOP is ONLY designed for working adults and for continuing education. It was not created for the first time student, but for the corporate worker attending night school for another degree. The only two online courses (Directed study) I attended were accounting and finance. They are difficult courses no matter where they are taught! Same is true off statistics. I would go on to relate that calculus us the same at the U of Tennessee and Georgia Tech the schools I attended for my BS Mechanical Engineering degree! A few of the courses were quite challenging, but I busted my rear and I learned plenty.

        UOP or not UOP? First time student – NOT; Professional trying to transition of move up – Maybe. It is completely up to the student what you get out of the school!

        • #3227918

          original question was employability

          by jhogue1 ·

          In reply to Business School – UOP

          “Professional trying to transition of move up – Maybe. It is completely up to the student what you get out of the school!”

          The original question here was about the employability of UofP grads not about how much was or was not learned.

          Since statistically most folks change employers several times, the fact that a particular employer will accept UofP is not a valid point. A great many hiring pros think that UofP is a diploma mill. If your degree is going to enhance your chances of getting the job you really want, you need a degree that is accepted by ALL the HR people not just some of them.

          Part of the problem is UofP’s agressive marketing but a great deal of the problem is students not doing their “homework” on schools before starting an expensive and time consuming program.

          There are a lot of “brick and mortar” universities that have online degree programs. It only costs some time and maybe a few phone calls to check them all out.

        • #3227738

          MIT or UoP

          by gyuris ·

          In reply to original question was employability

          Simple question with a simple answer about employability:
          Take two canddates for the same job, both equally experienced with the same certs, same age, same personality, and same geeky looks.
          One has an IT degree, say, from MIT. The other has an IT degree from UoP. Which one would you hire?
          Case closed

        • #3229036

          Seriously..

          by anniemae46 ·

          In reply to MIT or UoP

          I see your point but that’s not a realistic case example–other than suggesting that alumni is a heavy weight to take on. In that case, I could have a degree from all kinds of U’s and still face the same challenge. And anyway, I assume that many MIT guys go very different routes (alumni connections, self-employment, hired right out of MIT, etc.). In the end a lot is up to a person’s own desire and timing. One problem at UOP is that many don’t really get to network or establish close ties like some of the fellow alumns at other institutions.

        • #3228872

          doing the job vs getting hired

          by jhogue1 ·

          In reply to MIT or UoP

          I think we have a couple of issues here:

          1. Unfortunately many times the ability to do a job does not directly relate to getting hired for that job. Looking good on the resume is critical to getting interviewed. If you don’t get a chance to sell yourself and your abilities nothing else matters.

          2. The quality of UofP instruction is questionable. The actual quality of UofP is not really the issue. The perception of that quality by HR people is the issue. As long as that perception remains UofP grads will sometimes have difficulty – especailly in a very highly competative job market.

      • #3229020

        Precisely..

        by anniemae46 ·

        In reply to UOP Degree

        …right! Prospective students should carefully review the curriculum. I considered UOP’s BSIT curriculum diverse and a good fit for me because it also focuses on IT business requirements and management. It has a broad focus on design and development of systems in various business situations, following concepts such as systems development cycle, OSI model, contrast studies along with basic programming, networking, and much more. BUT, it does not at all make you, e.g., a systems administrator (unless you already are one..).

    • #3229014

      If you already have a job…

      by gyuris ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      IMHO, An UofP degree is fine if you already have an IT job and are looking to enhance your stature or maybe qualify for a promotion within the company.
      However, if you are trying to use the UoP degree to get that very first job, you will be at a disadvantage vs other candidates from traditional universities with accredited IT programs.
      Even though your studied hard and poured your heart and soul (and money) into that UoP degree, the perception outside is that the UoP degree is not as valuable. This perception maybe completely erroneous, but it is there. This is unfortunate, but most often “perception is reality” for the folks hiring.
      Even though UoP has been around for many years and there are many fine graduates from there, that general perception still has not changed.
      The UoP degree is controversial and this thread proves my point. You won’t find this kind of thread questioning the value of an IT degree from, say, MIT or Caltech or even USC.

    • #3227328

      I have both an online degree and traditional 4 year degree

      by jeffp ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      I thought maybe I could help with this topic a little on several points.

      First off, I’m a 10-year Navy veteran (92-02) who worked in electronic intelligence, I have a Master’s Certificate in Music Production and Technology from Berklee (online) and I’ve got a BS in Computer Science from a state university.

      I obviously had to work really hard to finish all that; I had knocked out most prerequisites for my degree by the time I got out so it was just a matter of doing all the Calculus and CS classes. I finished with my BS and my Berklee degree at the same time and had almost no problem finding a job in IT since I had worked part time on campus doing IT support.

      So now one of my many responsibilities is all the hiring and firing(oh joy!). We’ve had a few ITT grads come through as well as a UoP grad and we didn’t hire any of them. They couldn’t answer a simple question about data structures (i.e. “what is a linked list?”) and had no relevant experience with working as a team on a large software engineering project – something most CS graduates are intimately familiar with due to capstones.

      There is a feeling that potential hires with traditional degrees have common experiences with the rest of the staff. It was mentioned elsewhere that most CS students are familiar with all-nighters spent coding or debugging some insignificant program. It’s something we all have in common in our background. Like it or not, it gives them a leg-up on the competition.

      About the online degree…

      I once had a dream of working in a recording studio, hence I got my degree online from Berklee, a very respected school. On its own, it is worth almost nothing. But combined with another degree, it enabled me to get the job I have working in R&D for audio-processing applications.

      My military background was pretty much worthless and we do not really even take a person’s military experience into account when considering them for employment. They are usually too specialized in a field that has little in common with our own.

      • #3227260

        Yup you are absolutely correct….

        by nuskool ·

        In reply to I have both an online degree and traditional 4 year degree

        “They couldn’t answer a simple question about data structures (i.e. “what is a linked list?”) and had no relevant experience with working as a team on a large software engineering project”

        There are good teachers and there are good students at ITT but many students are lazy and they are allowed to get away with it which affects there employability and the schools reputation.

        I had to look up what a linked list was, probably because I received my associates in Computer Networks not Software Development but still I am disapointed I did not know what it was.

        Putting that aside I did take a VB course and I did spend sleepless nights debugging code but, most students just downloaded the answers from the books website and couldn’t understand why I would “waste” my time trying to figure out how to do something when I could just download it, turn it in, and get the full credit for the assignment.

        Like others have said you get what you put in and it’ll show in the interview.

        • #3227185

          My students don’t get away with it

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Yup you are absolutely correct….

          If they don’t know the material it will show on my quizzes, homework, and in class questions. It’s amazing how fast students learn the material when you ask them the tough question in front of all the others and wait for them to answer.

        • #3204960

          No disrespect but………

          by nuskool ·

          In reply to My students don’t get away with it

          Teachers like you were rare at the campus I went to. I could think of a handful of teachers that did actually challenge the students and they were thought of as @$$h0le$ among the student body.

      • #2497534

        “what is a linked list?”

        by mdhealy ·

        In reply to I have both an online degree and traditional 4 year degree

        > They couldn’t answer a simple question about
        > data structures (i.e. “what is a linked list?”)

        Now *that* is rather shocking: at places with which I am familiar, the SECOND programming course will include linked lists (when I was an undegraduate they taught FORTRAN, C, and PASCAL, now at most places it will be Java (except MIT where they emphasize LISP), the concepts are still the same but reference-based data structures are WAY easier in Java than in those older languages).

        • #2497478

          Even more shocking . . .

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to “what is a linked list?”

          The very name “linked lists” makes their nature obvious to anyone that knows what a “list” is, and has the ability to think through the implication of the term.

        • #2497452

          I thought MIT used Scheme

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to “what is a linked list?”

          LISP and Scheme are both friggin’ messes of languages that should only be used to torture the odd student that forgets to turn in their homework.

          You know what LISP stands for? Lost in Stupid Parentheses. 😉

        • #2509061

          LISP = LISt Processing

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to I thought MIT used Scheme

          Oh, come on. That family of languages known as LISP (including Common Lisp, Scheme, and even Logo) is actually quite clean, elegant, powerful, and flexible. The fact you don’t like ubiquitous parentheses and are more familiar with imperative programming in the C idiom doesn’t change that.

          LISP was, in fact, originally conceived of as using a syntax without all the parentheses. That syntax was known as an M-expression syntax. This syntax would be compiled to a parse tree, which would then be interpreted (executed) or further compiled to binary code before execution (depending on your platform). The M-expression syntax doesn’t use ubiquitous parentheses, but rather a simply functional, list processing oriented syntax.

          Initial implementations of the LISP platonic ideal used an S-expression syntax, essentially just parse trees in human-readable form — similarly to the manner in which assembly language was created as a human-readable form of programming in hexadecimal, but with a much higher-level syntax and a far more interesting semantic form. The S-expression syntax incorporated parentheses to provide functional grouping to ease the process of implementation.

          The idea was that the “fingernail clippings in oatmeal” S-expression syntax would be an intermediary step on the way to a usable M-expression syntax, but people found the S-expression syntax much easier to use effectively than was originally assumed. As a result, LISP caught on in popularity faster and more widely than expected. The S-expression syntax was incredibly easy to implement in an interpreter or compiler, and was quite easy enough for LISP programmers to use to produce excellent code.

          Because the S-expression syntax was “good enough”, further development of the syntactic representation kind of stopped in that respect. There were easier, and more interesting, problems to solve than an M-expression implementation of LISP. After a while, the further translation of LISP to an M-expression language might have occurred, except that there was already a strong code base and community using S-expression syntax, and it became “the standard” for LISP. In other words, “good enough” became the enemy of “perfect”, or of “just right”. M-expression syntax was never implemented for mainstream LISP (in the form of Common Lisp and Scheme, primarily).

          Eventually, however, someone actually did create an M-expression LISP. It’s called Logo. The reasons this did not sweep aside S-expression LISPs are mostly three-fold:

          1. A great many people are heavily invested in their S-expression LISPs. They don’t [i]want[/i] an M-expression LISP to take over.

          2. Logo’s early implementations were far more limited than LISP in terms of functionality. For instance, the infamous macros associated with Common Lisp are absent in most implementations of Logo, and in fact there’s nothing in the standard Logo specifications that suggests macros are a part of the language. Eventually, UCBLogo was created at UC Berkeley, complete with macro support, but by then it was much too late (for reasons outlined in point 3 of this list). Much of the reason for the decreased power of Logo in most implementations is tied up in the fact that when Logo was created, it was created and billed as an “educational” language, and not as a “real” programming language. Because of the educational intent, it was determined that (like BASIC) it did not need the more powerful characteristics of other general purpose languages. This leads nicely into the third point.

          3. Logo is a victim of its own success. Because Logo was so successful as the educational programming language of choice for many educators, and was so widely evangelized as the tool to use for teaching children to program, it has become widely regarded as a child’s programming language. People don’t think of it as a serious language, despite the fact that with a little more library and tool support UCBLogo could run circles around most of the “serious” programming languages in use today. It may, in fact, essentially be the most faithful implementation of the original LISP idea yet created — because it’s LISP with an M-expression syntax — and one of the most powerful languages available, in and of itself. The fact that it was billed as an educational language, however, and that nobody has made any serious attempt to use it for more “serious” purposes and to actually get the point across that it is a “serious” programming language rather than just a child’s toy (and that damnable “turtle” didn’t help in this regard) is the major problem with Logo’s lack of viability in “real world” programming.

          If you want a LISP implementation that won’t get you “lost in stupid parentheses”, perhaps you should give UCBLogo a look. There’s a trilogy of programming and computer science textbooks available online that use UCBLogo as the example language, too, so you can learn the language sufficiently for real-world use quite easily. These books are designed for college students, not children, so don’t worry that they won’t be up to snuff for adults trying to learn something useful.

    • #3226377

      How about WGU?

      by kjell_andorsen ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      I’ve been looking into some online colleges as they seem to be the most viable solution for me. I’m currently employed in IT and have a nice little collection of Certs. I have my resume up on Monster and get calls from recruiters on a fairly regular basis, but I lack a degree.

      I’ve been looking at Western Governor’s University, they’re quite a bit cheaper than UoP and include 9 different certifications as a part of their BSIT program which I found to be a big plus. It’s also a not for profit college and regionally accredited.

      Has anyone had any experience with this school and it’s competyency based model? I’d be curious to see how it could help me

      • #3226304

        Western Govern…WHAT?

        by gyuris ·

        In reply to How about WGU?

        Unfortunately most recruiters are going to say Western Govern…WHAT?
        If their perception is that it is little known school, or a cake walk school (even though it may not be), then they won’t think much the diploma mainly because the admmission requirements to it are not at all competitive.
        However if you already have a job and are looking to get a promotion within the company then it might be worth it.

      • #3204624

        WGU??

        by vpomar ·

        In reply to How about WGU?

        Is WGU a certified school? Ask to see their certification, without it, any degree from them is worth zip. UoP is certified

        • #3204618

          certified — so what???

          by jhogue1 ·

          In reply to WGU??

          The whole theme of this thread is that even though UofP is certified their reputation in many HR departments is still questionable.

          I would never attend an uncertified school but a wise person would also seek out a school with a reputation that is at the very least neutral and idealy positive.

        • #3204580

          Fairly new but…

          by kjell_andorsen ·

          In reply to WGU??

          It is an acreddited school. Regional accredidation through the Northwest Commission on Colleges and Universities and nationally accredited by Distance Education and Training Council. It was the brainchild of former Utah Governor Mike Leavitt in conjunction with 18 other Governors of the Western United states as a low-cost online alternative to for-profit schools such as UoP. They also have some pretty large tech companies comprising their National advisory board such as Microsoft, Sun, Dell and google.

          It’s kind of a new school, but their program seems interesting and very competency driven, I really like their focus on also obtaining certifications during the course of getting the degree.

      • #3204620

        brick & mortar U with online program

        by jhogue1 ·

        In reply to How about WGU?

        There are a lot of traditional brick and mortar Universities with online degree programs. You are not limited to a strictly online school with a shaky or unknown reputation. You are going to spend a lot of time and money on a degree. It might be wise to spend a little more of both at a more known and respected school.

        Are the engrance requirements tougher? Probably.
        Is the degree worth more in the market place? That is a question you will have to answer for yourself.

      • #3219886

        WGU Grad.

        by delmonte ·

        In reply to How about WGU?

        I’m a graduate of WGU. Credits are earned through testing and projects. In order to pass the competency you must perform at a level
        comparable to “B” level work in a B & M school.

        If you enroll, you will be assigned a mentor who will work closely with you to keep you on track. WGU is very affordable. You pay about $2700 every 6 mos. and can attempt as many competencies as you are able in that time frame.

        If you have any specific questions, I’ll be happy to try to answer them.

      • #2498742

        WGU

        by prichusa ·

        In reply to How about WGU?

        I attend WGU and I have been enrolled at UOP. WGU, is far a better school, however it is much more difficult as far as work. With your certs you have a good chance to waive a good portion of your classes.
        You will be assinged a Mentor that wil help you, very much.
        The great thing is you pay a flat rate for tuition and you can do as many credits you can handle for the same price.
        I hope this helps.

    • #3282117

      UOP???

      by jmaldonado5 ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      I too went to UOP for a while, until I realized they are thieves! I got smart and changed universities early enough to finally earn my degree from the American Intercontinental University Online.

      First thing you should do is get in some kind of entry level IT job if you can, after you gain some experience in the field, your degree will be a solid selling asset to getting a job more commesurate with your abilities. I started that way after graduation, now I am on my way to becoming the IT Project Manager for a major city.

      Be patient and concentrate on building yuor career to complement your degree, show hiring companies that, while UOP is perceived as a degree mill (nicely put by you), you really earned yours by working hard and they will be lucky to have you.

      Good Luck!

      JAM

    • #3282094

      how about this situation

      by mtolab ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      have been working for this company for 7 years, I got my MBA from Keller about 2 years ago. I am still in the same position for the last 5 years and didn’t move up. our main office is in Denver which where I applied for about 32 postings for last 1 1/2. no call back from any hiring managers. What do you guys think the problem is? is it where got my MBA from? Because it is not a well known school?

    • #3275247

      University of Phoenix Diploma Mill

      by 38droy ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      Hi Karen,
      Like you, I wonder about the degrees from UOP. I just started my first course a couple weeks ago and plan on quitting. I’ve been reading a lot of info on the web about this school and all of the lawsuits going on against them.
      Now, I’m also wondering about their degrees. Are they worth anything ??
      I’m gonna find out somehow but in the meantime, I’m just gonna quit this so-called flexnet course.
      Thanks for speaking your mind because it caught my eye and hope many other people will also agree.
      Dave

    • #2497362

      Karen your degree is valid

      by redleg_155 ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      Karen,
      The IT field is a different animal a degree does help but it needs backed by certifications. I feel your same pain. I have a Masters in IT but no certs. I suggest looking over and evaluated what part of IT do you want to specialize. Database, network, security are a few options then determine which cert supports that path. I have attended many online universities and 90% of my education is online. As long as the school is accreditted then the degree is valid. UoP has a valid credential and is not on probation like AIU.

      George in FL

      • #2497322

        marketability of degree vs validity of the degree

        by jhogue1 ·

        In reply to Karen your degree is valid

        You are missing the original point of this thread. UoP is acredited so the degree is valid.

        But how marketable and valuable is a UoP degree to those making the hiring and salary decisions? If the reputation of the school is as a diploma mill with HR people, your chances of getting hired are less than another applicant with a degree from another school.

        The critical question is not online vs face 2 face but the perceived reputation of the school to those making the hiring decisions. I sit on the hiring committee for all openings in our division. It will be interesting to hear the discussions the first time we get an applicant from UoP.

    • #2591954

      USCIS Accepts UOP For filing H1

      by arthy_0686 ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      Hai

      I’m planning to do my masters in UOP(MBA)
      i’m an international student and will that help me get H1.
      USCIS Accepts University of Phoenix for filing H1.

    • #2606695

      UOP = Thieves

      by jmaldonado5 ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      Start by getting a job as a tech. Unfortunately in the world of IT, many people have to start at the bottom, because experience counts more than a piece of paper, regardless of what University you attended.

      My 2 cents

    • #3003431

      UoP BSIT degree is a junk degree

      by uopchump ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      I don’t think the degree is bogus, but it’s not going to prepare somebody for an entry-level IT job. It’s only good for somebody who is already in IT and their employer wants them to have a “degree in IT” for a guaranteed promotion, to teach a class of kindergarten kids how to play math games (after getting a teaching certification), or to say that you have a college degree so you may beat out the high school kid for that last job opening at McDonald’s.

      I have one of these typically useless BSIT degrees from the UofP — do yourself a favor and either find a real school (ask IT companies) or spend the money on the sports car of your choice. I now have student loans to pay off and I curse writing the check every month. The “degree” is buried in the closet somewhere but I wouldn’t hang it up to even cover a hole in the wall.

    • #2824751

      Univ. of Phoenix Degree

      by carie1 ·

      In reply to HELP! University of Phoenix Degree.

      I am with you regarding this UOP degree. Every employer I worked for encouraged me to further my education and told me that UOP was a good degree to get. However I was laid off from my position as an IT Manager. Now I have 100K in student loan debt with no hope of ever being able to pay it off and cannot find a job to save my life. I too would like to prove that they sold me a bogus degree and they are responsible for all this loan debt that I incurred after their false promises.

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