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high school geography teacher goes nuts

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Overland High School teacher Jay Bennish, is a geography teacher in Co. He has a job in the PUBLIC school system teaching GEOGRAPHY. Instead, he is teaching that Bush, capitalism, and America in general are evil in nature.

http://cbs4denver.com/topstories/local_story_062081133.html
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2006/03/jay_bennish_plans_federal_lawsuit_to_get_job_back/
(transcript here)
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/004689.htm
(To hear the recording)
http://www.850koa.com/cc-common/podcast/single_podcast.html?podcast=news_worthy.xml

A student recorded this lecture, and AFTER providing a copy to the school system and giving them a chance to handle the issue, they went to the local radio and turned the tape over to them.

If you haven’t heard the recording, you don’t watch the news AT ALL. It is everywhere.

The teacher is placed on PAID leave while this is being investigated. The school district has a rule requiring instructors MUST provide ALL sides to a political, social, or religious topic.

I am sure some of you that are more on the “liberal” side of politics will try to say he has a “First Amendment RIGHT” to say anything he wants. Wrong. On his own time he can be as big a nut case as the rest of you guys. When working for a public school system, he is paid to teach a subject, not try to indoctrinate his distorted views on our kids.

The same people that will stand up to defend this nut, are the same that would be howling if a teacher in that same school were to use THEIR first amendment right to talk about God and ID?

But that is different, right?

Topic

Of course it’s different

In reply to high school geography teacher goes nuts

Bush and religion are both very evil things that children need to be warned about. And don’t forget…..he’s a college graduate so he must be much smarter than the rest of us. Why are you complaining about someone who’s just trying to make sure your kids are raised right?

😉

Liberal and He’s Wrong

In reply to high school geography teacher goes nuts

Teachers have a requirement to educate, even if they use a devil’s advocate viewpoint to make students think about the topic.

I heard part of this techer’s lecture and it wasn’t a discussion, it was a diatribe.

He was wrong and he deserves to be terminated.

ACLU to the rescue

In reply to Liberal and He’s Wrong

They have already decide to defend him to get his job back.

The ACLU defending brainwashing of our youth to hate America? Say it isn’t so!

Side note, from reading break downs of the diatribe, even the “facts” that he is spewing are wrong.

The value of the ACLU

In reply to ACLU to the rescue

This dork will have had the best representation available, then lose his case, making the Court’s decision more convincing to the public, IMO. The ACLU should serve as a model for constitutional democracies because there are people in every population who wish to push the boundaries. When those people’s case is well-articulated, the ludicrousness of it is most easily recognizable as such.

Sad use of paid leave

In reply to Liberal and He’s Wrong

another example: the doctor in the fertility clinic scandal at UCI in irvine, ca fled to south america when he was indicted for unethical and possibly illegal acts such as fertilzing many women’s implants with his own sperm, unauthorized use of eggs, etc.

problem: they were still paying him year or so after and far as I know still are paying him.

liberal side view

In reply to high school geography teacher goes nuts

I suspect you will be wrong that people “…on the “liberal” side of politics will try to say he has a “First Amendment RIGHT” to say anything he wants.”

Most people consider me fairly liberal (on certain topics) and I certainly don’t think a geography teacher should spend any time whatsoever on modern politics, save to suggest that some regimes might change boundaries of some countries. But that seems like a short lecture…

not a ‘liberal’ thing

In reply to liberal side view

I think this is not a ‘liberal’ thing but more of the teacher not sticking to the subject. I’m sure there are teachers who spout off on religion, creationism, etc and are just as bad.

liberal / conservative / devil worshiper, doesn’t matter. the school is not their own personal platform, is there to teach kids specific things.

libertarian, and he stole from those children

In reply to high school geography teacher goes nuts

He was being paid to teach [b]geography[/b], not geopolitics, which I’m confident he would be teaching at a university if he were properly credentialed to do so. His students are the legal owners of the money that the state has decided to invest in their education. He did not perform as required by his employer. He stole the money he was given for the service he failed to render as promised.

Good teachers keep them guessing

In reply to libertarian, and he stole from those children

In my high school, I was well known to be a member of the Conservative Party.

But my teachers were usually pretty cagey about any allegiances they might have.

One of my English teachers knew that I was Tory and a friend of mine in the class was a Liberal (big L=Liberal party of Canada). So she assigned us essays – me on John Stuart Mill (father of “liberalism) and he on Edmund Burke. Little did she realize that John Stuart Mill would be a Conservative/Libertarian in today’s society.

One of my history teachers openly mocked me in class for being a Tory. But when I went to Tory party functions, he would buy me a drink.

James

Politics in high school? I didn’t see it

In reply to Good teachers keep them guessing

The closest was Mr. Meeth, the world history teacher. He had been in Nam, and was not the most politically correct person in the world.

More than once he went off about walking through the rice pattys killing “gooks”. Yeah, he got pretty worked up, but not on politics.

Now COLLEGE, THAT is another story.

Took a 101 writing class, and the “teacher” turned it into liberal 101. He HATED having me in there because I would call him on it evertime he would make some wild claim. I once tried to CLAIM that a collections agency in NY had used the patriot act to take some poor ladies last $100 from her savings account, and she found this out when she went to the store to buy food. Oh, how AWFUL! Too bad it was all BS and I told him flat out it never happened, and to provide a reputable source before EVER trying to make such a stupid statement. Except for one other guy, everyone else just accepteded everything he said because he IS an instructor after all.

He even MADE us watch that BS by M. Moore, “Bowling for Columbine”. 😀 He had to run an errand while we watched it, so I gave everyone a running commentary on everything in the movie that was a lie or distortion (everything) and provided sources to back up everything I said. (he made the mistake of letting us know before hand we were going to watch it so I made a point to watch it and do my research.) B-)

The GOOD thing about him was when he had a project I didn’t want to do, I could easily direct the conversation away from the project onto politics and next thing you know class was over. darn, have to drop that project because he didn’t explain how to do it! :^O Liberals are so easy!

Best Teacher

In reply to Politics in high school? I didn’t see it

I had a high school teacher who taught us to have a BS detector. He wasn’t right or left that we could tell. He just taught us to examine the motives behind the message, look at the source material and see how things were being slanted.

Good university profs encouraged debate. I had a prof who was a leader in the world in an area called political economy – basically socialistic/communistic stuff about how capitalism oppresses the poor. But he was a decent guy who encouraged us to express ourselves and I really enjoyed the class. He even gave me pretty decent marks on my essays (barriers to women in the realm of politics).

My first year Poli Sci instructor left University to be an advisor to Ronald Reagan – tells you how old I am. http://www.isppan.waw.pl/Ksiegarnia/new_europe.htm – Teresa Rakoska Harmstone.

James

Good post

In reply to Best Teacher

I don’t know if it’s just in Canada, but I don’t see what’s wrong with a teacher who shares healthy thought and teaches people to look at both sides, question what is pushed upon them and express their own views at the same time.

In this case, the teacher sounds a little over zealous and upset at times, but he mellows and explains it’s JUST his opinion and he encourags the kids to think and consider all view points. I think the kids were the lame ones here, nobody had much to say at all, except one kid, who sounds close enough to be the recorder/rat himself.

it was

In reply to Good post

the kid that did the recording. He was also the only one that would stand up to the bullying of this alledged teacher.

You must not have listened to the tape very well or you would CLEARLY have seen that the instructor didn’t share “both sides” and didn’t want them to question anything. he wanted them to believe his lies.

There was NOTHING encouraging in that tape, about anything but his point.

Just because it is the same distorted view you believe in, doesn’t not make this an objective rant, nor showing ANYTHING but one distorted side with most facts incorrect.

I can listen but you can’t read it seems

In reply to it was

The instructor did not shre both sides but he did explain that was HIS view, no matter what the kids felt. He also said he didn’t know if he was correct or not, it ws opinion.

Opinion (especially alternative opinion)teaches people to consider alternatives to being force fed.

As for encouraging, if a person vehemently ranting about his opinion does NOT encourange a student to question his comments, then your students are as dead in the head as most adults in the US I suppose.

As for me agreeing with his views, I actually don’t, I think he was WAY off base on most of his srguments, your point is pure crap.

I would have WLECOMED a teacher who spewed his republican view in front of me while in school, I just hope he was up to the argument because I wouldn’t have quietly tried to screw him on the way out.

“quietly tried to screw him on the way out”

In reply to it was

Regardless of fairness or accuracy of the characterization that the student with the recorder “quietly tried to screw him (the “teacher”) on the way out”, the primary question is whether the paid employee of the state had the right to say what he did in the state-funded forum of a middle school classroom. I vote no on having debates in public schools [b]until after formal logic and rules of debate are taught in the same schools[/b] which would do much more for the intellects of the youth of America than arguing in the style of today’s politicians about the topics chosen by today’s politicians.

Who cares

In reply to it was

Seriously, the teacher cased no harm at all to anyone. The teacher too 20 minutes oiut of your precious taxpayers funding to have his say, the kids are able to do that any day during any subject, or at least I sure as heII hope they do.

But who really cares, it’s 20 harmless minutes out opf your poor children’s lives.

A nearly indeterminalble fraction of one penny of your precious tax dollar was spent for children to listen to an opinion of someone they are supposed to trust and respect the opinion of.

The money WASTED on the school board’s review must be of massive concern to you in that case.

It JUST SHOULDN’T MATTER, WHO CARES? My dad would have just said, “Shhh, I’m trying to read the paper.” If the teacher had ACTUALLY done womething wrong, he would have gone to school and knocked him out 🙂

You guys will make headlines and whine and bitch about ANYTHING. It’s almost like if you don’t have something out of nothing each day, you will all perish. The drama is just ridiculous know wonder tabloids and Jerry Springer do so well there.

You evidently care, Oz.

In reply to it was

I think I have slightly more posts on this thread than you, but you obviously have an opinion that you have judged worthy of publishing, so why shouldn’t we, who live in the United States, state our opinions, you Canadian you?

Taking 20 minutes for what?

In reply to it was

Well, the teacher says in the audio recording that he hoped he gace them something to think about.

It seemed to me that he was trying to get the students to see that their viewpoint wasn’t the same as others. That’s an important lesson, and one that you must grasp fully to understand geopolitical situations.

Before I listened to the recording, I was mostly against this teacher. Now, I’m not so sure.

Additionally, we don’t hear the entire class discussion.

Perhaps this teacher puts on the face he does and takes those stances so that he challenges the thoughts of the status quo. In which case, he forces the children to think contrarily to what HAS been indoctrinated, and he is then not trying to DO the indoctrinating.

Please feel free to discuss it from that perspective.

Addendum

In reply to it was

Clarifying the above post, if that’s what the teacher was trying to do, he wasn’t particulary GOOD at it, but I can see that as his defense.

Absolutely

In reply to it was

I obviously care? Yes, I obviously care about how much time and energy Americans waste on chastizing fellow Americans. Again just another example of ho wyou are trained (I am wondering genetic now) to look and point fingers but never loko inward. I don’t know if CARE is the right word, I am definitely amused or puzzled over it though.

Your entire existence seems to be based on judging those around you, other countries, other companies, other countries people and when you run out of people to condemn you start in on each other, democrats suck, republicans suck, when you run out of political sterotypes, you then turn to anything YOU feel would be immoral even though many of you would do the same thing.

It just blows my mind how much time and effort you put into condemning everyone for the most miniscule things, does it really make you feel any better though?

dpetrak

In reply to it was

Thanks, those are my feelings exactly. This COULD have actually been a very good excersise. I am just disappointed that only one student seemed to have a voice, and others sat and grazed like sheep.

Oz, and judging

In reply to it was

I see you in the posts about American politics and day to day life being VERY judgmental when you don’t even have a direct stake in many of the discussions. (like this one)

Yet anyone else that is judgmental, (which you just got done being) is wrong for doing such.

No one should agree with what the Americans think because they don’t know anything anyways because of their edited newscasts (accept the liberals of coures. THEY get it, huh?)

There are plenty of ways to engage kids, but this clown had no intention of doing it and obviously didn’t have the skills nor temperment to do so either.

He was there for one reason, to indoctrinate kids that don’t know better than to accept what this authority figure would tell them, and would face retrobution if they were to say something.

The kid that did the recording is looking for a new school because of threats of violence against him for standing up. He and his father DID give the school system a chance to handle this, but when they decided to do nothing, he took it to the next step.

Right now the teacher should NOT be on paid leave, but UNPAID leave until there is a review of the tape which is the only evidence that is needed to show that he clearly violated school policies.

Of course, none of that matters to you because you would have beat the teacher up if he hurt your feelings.

You call this being sheep, we call it respecting authority figures. We also call this individual case “abuse of power and trust”.

Respecting authority?

In reply to it was

Since when was questioning a tirade in a learning environment to be considered disrespecting authority? The teacher was clearly stating personal opinion and was ready to debate his views AND listen to why the kid was interjectinng with.

The fact that he is in danger for speaking out just reiterates my point, people are taught/expected to just follow like sheep, whether they deem it right or wrong. “Lemmings”, is a term a gentleman used yesterday when this came up in discussion during a meeting break.

As for not allowing people to be judgmental, that’s exactly what I expect the kids to do in the first place and it feel it shouldn’t be dragged beyond that point.

To even say that you EXPECT and actually understand why an entire class would sit like morons and idly listen to such a rant from someone they are SUPPOSED to respect and be able to relate to is hideous. It’s truly laughavle that such a thing is taken so seriously there, yet nobody bats an eye when given admittedly false information that leads to war. In fact, they even go along and support it, despite the realization.

I don’t think anybody in the world actually ‘get’s’ America(ns), it’s just a completly different/uncomprehensible train of thought than anywhere else. I don’t know why, is it school, is it media, is it genetic? Who knows, but it’s like vistign the zoo sometimes, you just gaze in the window in astonishment, except we feed you too.

correct me

In reply to it was

i’m not quite sure but seems to me the guidelines given for these sessions request we address issuses and NOT attact the other person. you have made a very good point regarding this teacher. that is the problem that needs to be addressed, that teacher and his twisted idea on how and what to teach. rock on guys opinions are very important for within them we find true knowledge.

Thank you for making my point

In reply to Politics in high school? I didn’t see it

All it needed in Jay Bennish’s class was one JD.

if you listen to the tape

In reply to Thank you for making my point

you will hear they DID. The kid that did the recording knew more about the real world than this wacko did.

The scary part

In reply to Politics in high school? I didn’t see it

While BFC was mainly ripe, so is mnost of what the right clams is true. Th etruth is, in most cases neither side is 100% correct and only airing what they deem suitable for their point.

To claim even for one split second that th eright is truthful and correct all the time is a pure heap of shite. If you were really aware of TRUTH and not just that which you choose to believe, you would find that both sides are full of it and either side can easily discount the other.

That’s why there is no end to political debates here, think about it for once instead of simply defending what you choose to believe and discounting what you don’t. You can contradict just about asny point or comment raised by either party, just because you choose to believe one set of contradictions, does not make it correct.

If people would only think…

In reply to The scary part

“When was the last time that affected my quality of life?” when they hear or read the words of a career politician, how different do you suppose the world would be?

things would be worse

In reply to If people would only think…

If no one worried about anything that doesn’t directly affect them, the world would be in a sad place.

The charities I work with, while cancer has affected my family so they would still be on the list, helping kids that are going without would fall right off my list. The Katrina donations? didn’t affect me one bit directly, so I shouldn’t care?

I think more people should look how their actions affect OTHERS. civil liberties and rights STOP as soon as someone else has the same rights to do the opposite. “You” can say what you want because of free speech, but I can say what I want about you FOR what you have said with your free speech and hold “you” accountable for anything “you” say.

NOTE: replace “you” with any person at any time that does anything, not aimed at anyone here directly.

Incorrect

In reply to things would be worse

You can hold me accountable for my actions. You may agree or disagree with my words, not ‘hold “you” accountable for anything “you” say.

NOTE: replace “you” with any person at any time that does anything, not aimed at anyone here directly.’

Unless my words are incitement to violence, defamatory, fraudulent, maybe a few other sorts governed by law (?), you have no right to in any way [b]hold[/b] me accountable.

You may repeat my words to me, if you wish, and I may require you to cite the place, time and circumstance in which I said them, in order to establish context. As you can already see, this gets much more complicated, very quickly, than if we each live and let live, and consider nothing criminal that does not interfere with our own pursuit of our own happiness.

You have provided a convenient example for me to illustrate the point I just made.

jdclyde: “If no one worried about anything that doesn’t directly affect them, the world would be in a sad place.”

Those were not my words, and your conclusion is not consistent with my view. I have never promoted turning a blind eye to others’ suffering. In fact, I expect that if people asked themselves “How does this affect me?” more often, they would give [b]more[/b] to relieve suffering because they would vote for [b]fewer[/b] regulations on activities that are harmful to nobody, but are currently illegal.

For example, drug peddlers [b]offer[/b] dope, they [b]never[/b] (to my knowledge) accost people and blow smoke in their faces or inject them with needles in order to create more addiction. They [b]peddle[/b], leaving each person free to accept or refuse their offer. Granted, the effects of addiction are ugly, but addicts basically choose their fates, and if the members of society sober enough to vote would ask themselves, “Does this ‘drug epidemic’ really [b]affect[/b] me?” I believe they would conclude, “No, it just frightens me when I hear or read about it.”

I slightly regret being such a stereotype of a “legalize it” libertarian, but honestly, it is obviously the right thing. One of [b]many[/b] worthwhile benefits of eliminating the extra laws that protect none, but give police too many statutes to ever enforce half of them effectively, is that more of the money that is still produced by efficacious people would be available for emergencies like Katrina.

interesting

In reply to The scary part

to hear this from you?

[i]”That’s why there is no end to political debates here, think about it for once instead of simply defending what you choose to believe and discounting what you don’t. You can contradict just about asny point or comment raised by either party, just because you choose to believe one set of contradictions, does not make it correct.”[/i]

I agree completely, even if it does counter YOUR approach to every post you make against American companies/governement? You are not the holder of the keys to truth, because you also hear what other people have chosen for you to hear.

This may have been a geopolitics class

In reply to libertarian, and he stole from those children

I saw an interview with the attorney that represents the attorney, and he described this class as a political geography class. If this is the case the teacher may not have been completely off base with some of his lecture.

I have read some of his lecture on-line, and it looks like this teacher has a lot of facts wrong, and he definitely did not give both sides of any argument in his lecture.

I’d really like to see the class curriculum to see if something like this lecture was in line with the subject.

You don’t need to see anything

In reply to This may have been a geopolitics class

All you have to do is believe the word of the superintendent of schools, Monte Moses, who said it appears “a breach of district policy” occurred.

Yes, he was completely off-base.

class outline

In reply to This may have been a geopolitics class

was on one of the original links I put up.

Like you pointed out though, in clear violation of school policy, he didn’t even try to be objective or show more than his distorted views. He also was not looking for a discussion to stimulate thought as a few misguideds here have claimed. He wanted them to sit down, shut up, and let him indoctrinate (brainwash).

The students learned an important lesson from the experience

In reply to high school geography teacher goes nuts

I saw Jay Bennish on the Today show, but I also saw some students protesting his suspension because of the incident. This experience taught them to stand up for what they believe and fight for it. He inadvertently taught them what first amendment rights are all about.

True, he is a geography teacher, but the kids in his class were interested in discussing the state of the union speech that Bush gave and thats what he did. The only reason that this is even an issue is because Jay Bennish compared Bush’s way of communicating to Hitler.

That’s how Jay Bennish feels about Bush probably, but he should have kept that out of the discussions in class. Sure, he should stick to geography, but if the students bring something up and they’re interested, I think it should be discussed even if it is off topic.

Still, these kids got to learn a valuable lesson first-hand.

You should really get the full story

In reply to The students learned an important lesson from the experience

I assure you, what you saw on the Today Show was anything but the full story.

Listen to the tape, all 21 minutes, in its entirety. Better yet, go to the home page of the radio station ( http://www.850koa.com ), go to the Shows link, go to the Mike Rosen home page (he’s the radio guy who was the first to air the tape — see note below), and listen to the full show tapes that he made available. You’ll hear the tape, in its entirety, AND he discussed it with the student who made it public. (And please don’t say that you don’t have time. If you want to comment on the story, you should at least comment on the story, the whole story, and the true story, not the condensed Today Show version of it.)

Note: The esteemed Professor Walter Williams was actually the first one to break this story in an article he wrote a couple of days before it gained national (or even local) media attention. You should read that article as well.

http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/walterwilliams/2006/02/22/187189.html

http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/walterwilliams/2006/03/01/188010.html

Some other observations:

You said, “…but (you) also saw some students protesting his suspension because of the incident.”

However, what you did not see were just as many, or possibly even more, students “protesting” his standard operating procedure, supporting the one student’s assertion that this was anything but an isolated case. Moreover, he wasn’t “suspended”, as you suggested, but rather put on leave (paid leave) while the school district investigates the matter.

You also said, “This experience taught them to stand up for what they believe and fight for it.”

Well, you can think that if you want, but for most of them, it was merely an excuse to get out of a couple of classes. In fact, the school even cancelled some classes to avoid disruptions that might have occurred. I know teenagers, and in this case, they saw more of an excuse to skip class than a cause.

You said this, “taught them what first amendment rights are all about.”

I’m not sure what you mean by that, but teachers in our public school system have no such absolute right to free speech. In fact, to the contrary, policy requires balanced viewpoints in the classroom. Teachers may not, under any circumstances, use the classroom as their personal soapbox.

You said, “…the kids in his class were interested in discussing the state of the union speech that Bush gave and that’s what he did.”

Not quite. No student asked him to discuss it, nor did any student indicate initial interest. Mr. Bennish took it upon himself to talk about it.

You said, “The only reason that this is even an issue is because Jay Bennish compared Bush’s way of communicating to Hitler.”

Oh no, that was neither all of it nor the gist of it. The comparison went on and on and on and on — much more than you saw and heard on the Today how. (Gee, why do people call them a biased news source?) Moreover, the policy of requiring a “balanced viewpoint” would dictate that a comparison to Hitler ALSO be balanced with a comparison to someone like Abraham Lincoln. He didn’t do that, nor has he ever done that, if you care to listen to most students who’ve attended his classes and have also spoken up.

You said, “…but if the students bring something up and they’re interested.”

Like I said, they did not bring it up; and most of them are interested only to the point of writing what he wanted them to write on a test so they could get their passing grade.

You should really consider educating yourself on an issue before you draw your conclusions.

I do agree with one thing you said, however. You said, “Still, these kids got to learn a valuable lesson first-hand.”

Indeed they did. They learned that one person, even a teenager, can make huge waves if he sees a wrong being committed. And if they were really paying attention, they learned that a liberal bias is indeed prevalent in our schools, and that we don’t have to take it.

Issue with “Today Show … biased news source”

In reply to You should really get the full story

Since when is the Today Show a news source?

Since when is the Today Show a news source?

In reply to Issue with “Today Show … biased news source”

The Today Show is a “news source” (see my disclaimer note) since they present themselves as one, and since so many people tune-in to them as a “news source” every morning as part of their usual morning routines getting ready for work.

Many of these same people then go about their entire day never hearing or listening to another “news source”, except, perhaps, the five minute news break every half-hour on their favorite rock and roll or country radio station, with the disc jockey’s editorializing, of course, and/or never picking up a newspaper (another issue in and of itself) or reputable news magazine, much less get balance in the newspapers and magazines, like reading both the New York Times AND the Washington Times, or reading both Newsweek AND the Weekly Standard. (Man, that sentence was a mouthful!) And heaven forbid they might read a book once in a while, or better yet a book written by a real expert on a subject.

The next “news source” they expose themselves to is their local fluff and puff nightly news (it comes on right after Desperate Housewives or CSI-Anywhere, you know), followed by Jay Leno or David Letterman.

Disclaimer Note: I never did use the word legitimate or accurate with “news source”. But people consider it being informed, so in their minds, they are. And then they go to the polls to make an informed vote, or they come into these threads to present their “informed” argument.

Wake me up when the nightmare’s over, will you?

BAH

In reply to Since when is the Today Show a news source?

Why do YOU get to sleep through the whole thing?!?! The nightmares of no common sense or relative intelligence in this world are keeping me awake.

Give me whatever you’re taking to get through it.

Pretty good racket

In reply to Since when is the Today Show a news source?

if you stop and think about it. Everybody rushing around to get ready for work and the kids off to school. Slip in a half-truth here and there whie they’re distracted, and they’ll think they thought of it, so it must be true. Almost like subliminal messages mixed in with the department store muzak.

I think the issue is cut and dry

In reply to You should really get the full story

What I saw on the Today show said that a student initiated the discussion. I can’t provide a transcript of the show, but that was what I heard on it and part of what I based my opinion on.

I didn’t read the entire transcript either because I already know that he is anti-Bush and extreme left-wing from one sentence. Bush and Hitler? That says it all to me. I don’t agree that its appropriate for him to push his political views in a geography class. He did, however, get a reaction from the students, good or bad.

Maybe the students wanted to get out of class, as you say, and I’m sure you’re right; but still, they all learned a valuable lesson that will serve them well in life. They learned what it means to take a stand, right or left, and how our world works.

Even though Jay Bennish is out of line with his content, I like his approach to education. It is provocative and not mediocre. Any good teacher I ever had, had the same approach to education, but not the same politics.

and if he was

In reply to I think the issue is cut and dry

this wild eyed about religion, would you still say he is doing just find? No, you would not.

I would say he’s a Bush hating liberal

In reply to and if he was

Theres nothing wrong with that JD, everyone is entitled to their opinion. He went too far with his politics in the classroom, but he did provoke his students to stand up for what they believed and made them think. Our education system needs more of this challenging kind of education. I’m not talking about one man’s politics, but a controversial, intense and passionate way of educating kids to get them involved.

We need more teachers like him to inspire students to get involved, stand up and be counted. Good or bad, its something they need to learn in life to survive in this world.

He didn’t inspire anyone

In reply to I would say he’s a Bush hating liberal

to do anything but complain.

If he were to express his opinion that religion is the key to our existince you would not be supporting him.

If he went on about how there isn’t a sucessful socialist or comunist country in the world and railed about the evils of that, were would we be now?

This man knows nothing about politics and world events or his facts would be straight before he presents them as facts to his students. Any person that doesn’t know or care enough to get his facts straight before presenting them to his class AS facts has NO place in modern society as an instructor.

Anyone that breaks the schools policies of presenting ideas objectively and from alternate views is ALSO not a teacher any of us should tolerate.

It is amusing that people that are also Bush Haters (you/OZ) would make excuses for him and give him a free pass to say whatever he wants and distort facts as much as he wants. He does NOT have freedom of speech while on the clock. He is paid to do a job. If he doesn’t like what that job is, he should be in another profession. He clearly is NOT a good educator.

Who says?

In reply to He didn’t inspire anyone

Please show how you can say he didnt inspire anyone. Have you interviewed teh children? Nope.

But I assume that since only one kid actually decided to complain, that nobody was inspired? You don’t have to stand and scream in order to be inspired.

As for the referece to defending th eteacher, I am nto defending him, and EVEN HE DOESN’T STATE IT IS FACT! Get over it, he said it was HIS opinion. But as these forums prove all too often, no matter how eloquently you explain that your comments are personal opinion, some Republican will always quote last nights news and say you are wrong.

I think a good brain wash is due for most Americans these days, you are all living in tunnels.

distort and distract

In reply to He didn’t inspire anyone

as you wish, but it does not change the FACT that he is not ENTITLED to express his opinion in this fashion and in this setting. His OPINION has no place in a classroom where he is suppose to be teaching facts.

Sounds like you have already HAD your brainwashing.

Yes I listened to the news, and yes, you are wrong.

I knew there would be at least one

In reply to The students learned an important lesson from the experience

Who would first of all, not even read all of my post, nor follow any of the links provided, or even BOTHER to research this before defending Bennish.

Until you BOTHER to listen to the entire tape or read the transcript (I provided both) you are not worthy discussions on your uninformed points.

Liberal does not have to mean uninformed, it just usually does.

Would you really support a public school teachers first amendment right to start teaching your kids about Intellegent design instead of math? How dishonest of you. Some lesson.

Hmmm

In reply to I knew there would be at least one

When I was in school we often got into lengthy discussions abotu “off subject” topics with teachers. We had a math teacher that was so easy to side track that we would go to class with the intent of gettin ghim talking about something else. He was a very interesting person with some really good opinions on many subjects we wanted to talk about.

Sure we did the rithmetik stuff too, but he was more interesting as a person.

It also helped us to gain respect for him and listen to him/relate to him as he taight us as well.

I don’t have any problem with my kids teachers strying from the lesson in order to share real, human thoughts. My kid knew to have his opinion and share it too, he also was a successful student and one whom had th erespect of most of his teachers. It’s a learning relationship, not a flippin ‘sit and ingest’ period.

I dunno, maybe it’s just that we breed people and not sheep here.

yeah

In reply to Hmmm

that must be it

It could be actually

In reply to yeah

We seriously do spend more time guiding children than TEACHING them. We are seemingly much more ‘three dimensional’ in our ways than Americans.

I mean that we are less reliant on a single set of values and history lessons, than we are in analyzing and openly regarding an issue before condemning it.

It seems in America everything is so cut and dry, very simply applied without further consideration, as many comments here illustrate (if A then B). In Canada, and especially Australia but a little less so in England, people are more laid back and relaxed about life. Sh1t mate, no matter whar you plan, think or do, it’s just gonna happen for an unknown number of years and then it’s all over, you’re dead, done. What’s the big deal about something so menial and trivial?

Get over it and stop wasting time with BS.

The most important lesson for them to learn

In reply to The students learned an important lesson from the experience

…is that the man’s [b]job[/b] is/was to teach geography.

“No slacking on the job, or you’re fired!” was a perfectly reasonable phrase to address to a slacker when the United States was commercially competitive in the world.

Yeah

In reply to The most important lesson for them to learn

We don’t want our childrens instructors to become people! God only knows, the next thing, our kids will have opinions, thoughts, questions and will not conform to the mold!

Too much Star Trek in America, you aren’t REALLY Borg.

“Too much Star Trek in America”

In reply to Yeah

Ceasing to use money is not an evolutionary step [b]forward[/b].

Ferengi

In reply to “Too much Star Trek in America”

That is why I like the Ferengi, they understand the value of hard currency (gold-plated latinum is their currency of choice). The Ferengi are also known for their “Rules of Acquisition”.

The Ferengi seem to be rather Libertarian in their political outlook. They do not like government regulations, and try to find ways to get around them. They do not like wars, because they disrupt trade, but will find ways to profit from a war by selling to both sides.

Thanks guys

In reply to Ferengi

YOu really enforced that point for me didn’t you?! LOL 🙂

You’re welcome.

In reply to Thanks guys

But which point do you mean? That we watch too much Star Trek?

It could be worse. I could be watching sports instead.

Absolutely

In reply to Thanks guys

Sports or Star Trek? Hmmm, I am sure I’ve seen SOME intelligent or thought provoking shows on US networks, actually maybe not.

But if you get cable there ar at least some decent shows to watch, other than BS news, sports or Star Trek.

Absolutely – sports

In reply to Thanks guys

Could be even worse. Could be watching hockey. 🙂

I hate Ferengi.

In reply to Ferengi

I hate that they are a parody of capitalism instead of a tribute to it. I hate that the use of money is portrayed as a weakness beyond which the “enlightened” Federation types have evolved. I hate that Ferengi lie, cheat and steal for profits, and that the communist Federation dopes are portrayed as “industrious”, when [b]the[/b] motivation for industrious behavior, in reality, is personal profit.

That is how you know it is Sci Fi

In reply to I hate Ferengi.

If it was real, the Ferengi, with their much stronger economic base and knowledge of free market capitalism, would have been able to take over the Federation (and the Klingons and Romulans and the Cardassians) bit by bit over time, developed their markets, and made the whole Alpha Sector prosperous.

Kind of like how the Free Market NATO countries triumphed over the economically bankrupt Warsaw Pact. And now Ukraine (former member of the USSR) wants to join NATO.

Teachers like Jay Bennish. . . . .

In reply to high school geography teacher goes nuts

…are the reason I choose private schools, even though I am forced to pay the salaries of people like him and support the schools that allow it.

The school did absolutely nothing until it was made public. In fact, it was taken public because the complaints fell on the deaf ears of school administrators.

Max That is why we homeschool

In reply to Teachers like Jay Bennish. . . . .

I ran into the same stuff at a private grade school that I was paying 9000 per kid. It was Liberal claptrap all the way…

My wife does English, grammar and Most of the music.
I do French,Math (beyond Algebra, and Sciences).
I lost her salary, but with 4 kids in private school, it was no cheeper for her to homeschool.

Tim

school admistrators are AFRAID

In reply to Teachers like Jay Bennish. . . . .

of the teachers’ union. School BOARDS, however, are not.

Absolutely hilarious

In reply to high school geography teacher goes nuts

Haven’t we all had teachers like this guy? I know I have and on both sides of the political spectrum, too. Maybe we just used to ignore them in my day, pick out anything useful that they had to say and move on. I used to find them – teachers with an agenda – much more stimulating than those who stuck boringly to the syllabus.

The amount of fuss over what this guy had to say is ridiculous.

Lighten up.

Neil 😀

p.s. Yes, I would be howling if someone taught my kids ID and creationism. The difference being that there’s not a single grain of truth in either of those… :p

one mans facts

In reply to Absolutely hilarious

is anothers fiction?

Even the stats he gave out were wrong.

Bad enough to be a liberal weenie, but to be a WRONG liberal weenie is just too much to tolerate! ;\

Also, before listening to the whole tape, if he compared Bush to Hitler…

In reply to Absolutely hilarious

unfavorably to Bush, well, “them’s fightin’ words,” and giving kids the impression that free speech includes the right to incite or advocate treason is not within a teacher’s privileges. Whether or not he did advocate treason, I’ll decide for myself after listening to the recording, and seeing whether he compared styles of presentation intelligently and accurately, or just declared “He’s just like Hitler” without also supporting that statement with relevant facts.

Neil,

In reply to Absolutely hilarious

when someone makes a statement as you did, ?p.s. Yes, I would be howling if someone taught my kids ID and creationism. The difference being that there’s not a single grain of truth in either of those? then, as far as I?m concerned, it discredits anything else they might have to say. I realize that you like to incite and stir the pot, particularly about Christianity, but quite frankly statements like this totally detract any type of respect I might have for your opinions. Statements like this is bogus, obnoxious, and totally closed-minded (close-mind?ed (kl s m n d d, kl z -) or closed-mind?ed (kl zd -)
adj. Intolerant of the beliefs and opinions of others; stubbornly unreceptive to new ideas. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=closed-minded ) Particularly when you state that you are so Free-thinking. It would be hard to see a single grain of truth in Christianity with such a totally closed mind.

Sorry, Neil but I expect better. Prejudice kills respect.

intelligent

In reply to Neil,

stubbornly unreceptive to bad ideas

Alas, too subtle

In reply to Neil,

Investigate the concept of irony

Didn’t get by everyone

In reply to Alas, too subtle

the only thing you forgot was “thanks god that….” 😀

Keeping the pot stired is what keeps it interesting!

Maybe I should have borrowed Maxs title to discribe Jay Bennish. “But your honor, he IS an idiot!” B-)

(I think I owe Max a nickle for copyleft infringement….)

I thought the tongue-out icon

In reply to Didn’t get by everyone

singnifying that I wasn’t [b]quite[/b] serious would avoid the flames I’ve been getting on this one.

Max has beaten the crap out of me a little further down…

[sniff]

I would remind everyone of the saying “Those who can, do. Those who can’t, teach.” but I’m not sure that it’s not a British saying. Anyway, although it’s a gross simplification and a slur on the teaching profession, there is a grain of truth in it.

government work in general

In reply to I thought the tongue-out icon

is performed a lot by people that just can’t compete in a competative work enviornment. I have even read reports that it is the less competative work environment that attracts the higher ratio of female than does the corporate world, but have not decided if that is all bull or not.

Besides, you needed a good beating for a while now! 😛 I tell the boys I need to give them a spanking for all the things they do that I don’t CATCH them doing! (they know I am joking because I don’t spank them anymore…..)

So, this beating? You up for it?

In reply to government work in general

The traditional place is on the Close behind the school. This is where you precious football was first played and where I tried to meet you last time you promised me a whuppin’.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Rugby_School_850.jpg

When you’ve administered the beating – yeah? – we can go for tea at my Mum’s.

Neil & Irony,

In reply to Alas, too subtle

I didn’t consider my response an actual flame (maybe a spark but not a full flame). I know you use a lot of irony. In fact, I even stated in my post I know you like to stir the pot. I guess everything can be over done. After awhile irony gets tiresome. I do think there is enough crap that everyone has to go through every day of their lives that sometimes extra stuff just goes too far sometimes.

Everyone gets a turn at being cranky or in a bad mood, as long as it doesn’t stay that way. Right now it’s my turn. Tomorrow it may be yours or someone else’s.

“I do think there is enough crap” – Absolutely agree

In reply to Neil & Irony,

Among that crap is religious fools who expect their irrational beliefs to be taken seriously.

intelligent => stubbornly unreceptive to bad ideas

In Virginia

In reply to high school geography teacher goes nuts

A teacher said that the school, in having her remove religious posters from her classroom, was violating her right to free speech. The courts disagreed.

I agree. When you’re on the employer’s time, you have two rights: Either do the job you were hired to do, or not work there anymore.

Indoctrination of our youth

In reply to high school geography teacher goes nuts

Indoctrination of our youth

by Walter E. Williams

http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/walterwilliams/2006/02/22/187189.html

Williams Right as Usual

In reply to Indoctrination of our youth

Walter Williams is one of my favorite political commentators. He also knows a lot about free market economics. If he ran for president, he would have my vote.

Dr. Walter E. Williams- My hero

In reply to Indoctrination of our youth

I have been led from the PC darkness by listening to him on Rush Limbaugh.

I was much more PC until I learned that I, too an the idol of women. I don’t smoke, drink, married one time and have the adulation of many. I am happy to say he helped me return to my masculine roots.

Alan Alda

Incorrect

In reply to high school geography teacher goes nuts

If it had been my child I would have punched him out without a second thought.

Not because I think right wing christian capitalist america is the champion of world freedom though, but because I know he would have been misinforming my child, attempting to impose his dogmatic stupidity on my child for his own benefit. That’s inexcusable no matter what you are teaching.

So while being a socialist tree hugging nutball and unamerican being irrelevant in my case, I want all children to be taught why I think along those lines why others of differing points of view think their way. Then I want them to reason what’s best for them. Anything else you are no better those twats who ‘taught’ the Hitler Jugend.

I would definitely sack this guy though, mainly because he’s dumber than the hole in a cow’s arse, therefore unqualified to teach in my opinion.

Excellent point Tony

In reply to Incorrect

Teach how you came to a conclusion, don’t ram your wild eyed claims down a bunch of kids throughts.

This really DOES happen more than most realize. My bud has this happen to his 14 year old step-son, and the 14 year old gets in trouble if he speaks up because he is being disruptive.

Oz must be way too old to remember that NO, kids do NOT talk in class unless a class discussion is going on. This was NOT a class discussion, and honest imput was not wanted and was actually attacked.

Freedom of speech is for your personal views on your personal time. When you are paid to do a specific job, you have NO rights to deviate if you wish to keep that job.

Let the ACLU step up and show the world again how intentionally deceptive and corrupt they have become. They will fight this, making it a bigger story yet so even MORE parents will be warned and can start arming their kids with recording devices. I will be giving my 13 year olds each one.

Correcting a teacher

In reply to Excellent point Tony

One of my “worst” teachers, same high school as the best one ironically, was an english teacher.

He was trying to teach a class one day and tried to invoke the various periods of “classical” music; Baroque, Classical, Romantic and Modern. He then tried to compare the evolution of english literature. But he messed up his descriptions of the classical music eras badly and as someone who was playing two intruments, singing since 5 and studied music theory since 9, I tried to gently correct him.

His ego was clearly in the way. He was embarassed and got red in the face and raged at me during and after class.

I think he did his students a grave misservice in how he handled the matter. It was a childish way to respond.

The same teacher did have one interesting teaching trick. He forced us to write essays without using the word “it”. The task did help us expand our writing skills. Try it sometime 🙂

James

Last time an instructor got miffed with me

In reply to Correcting a teacher

was in college in a networking class. We were on linux servers and on a quiz he asked where the passwords were kept. of course /etc/passwd.

I got the quiz back and it was marked wrong. (it was a fill in the blank quiz)

I went to him and let him know he accidentally marked one of mine wrong. He said “no, that is the wrong answer. it is /etc/password.”

I had to go over to a system to pull it up before he would grudgingly change it. He never did go back and mark it WRONG for the people that put password. @#$^@#$^!@#^%$!!!

Even had an instructor refuse to correct mistakes that he intentionally marked wrong on mine because I was throwing off the curve. That is the class we had to do research and do a presentation, so I did a presentation on WHY YOU SHOULD DRINK. The other students were in shock that I would do it on something that wasn’t a “serious” topic, but I got my “A”.

I save that report, and have rehashed it and given it in three classes now. 😀

Let me know who the instructor was.

In reply to Last time an instructor got miffed with me

I need a laugh. He may have been my brother…

If he hadn’t been a football player he’d have never finished high school…

Never did politics at school

In reply to Excellent point Tony

History I did was 1918 – 1960 ish.

However I must have picked up a political point of view somewhere, I think I became a radical socialist at the prompting of Thatcher.

Having had a bit of experience with the real world now I’m much more pragmatic and I’ve dropped the radical bit.

Course that is for a brit, you and Mr Edison, would n’t want me teaching your kids modern politics or history any more than you would Mr Bennish, or Oz.
LOL

I can well understand why you don’t want this halfwit in your classrooms, but be careful, before you know it, the pc mob will be following the current political line and before you can finish the last syllable of the sentence “My kid is f’dUp”, your kids will be f’d up.

Paint GWB as a saint or republicans as the only right thinking americans, christianity as the only true religion, americans as the fairest kindest greatest nation on earth, for long enough and they’ll believe you. Right up to the point where they discover that this may not be exactly true.

Then everything you’ve said is potential bollocks, GWB is the devil, republicans are stupid, christianity is evil, and americans are imperialist dictators with no respect for human rights.
There’s ‘evidence’ for all those points of view, all it requires is someone to accept it unthinkingly.

So don’t teach kids to accept everything they are told, get them to question everything they are told, otherwise you’ll wish you had been more careful about what you wished for.

If you find a teacher who can’t meet the challenge posed by a wet behind the ears’ adolescent, sack them, they are a waste of space.

I still think the whole affair is hilarious

In reply to high school geography teacher goes nuts

in the way that everyone has over-reacted. He was teaching a bunch of 16-year olds for chrissakes! Any half-bright collection of kids that age should have been able to respond the guy’s arguments.

Everyone is wittering on about “indictrination”, “captive audience” and – of course – “my tax dollars” ad nauseam. Crap.

I’ve read the transcript and the teacher is a lightweight twit who could easily have been reined in by the class. Some of the teachers comments were true, a good number were not but most of them at least warranted spirited responses from the class. What do we get? One sneaky little sh:t records him and grasses him up to the media.

Hey guys! Get a sense of proportion! The whole thing should have been dealt with by a slap from the Principal. This will now have an effect on all teachers, good and bad, as every sentence will now be recorded and subjected to scrutiny.

Wait with bated breath. . . .

In reply to I still think the whole affair is hilarious

…for my reply.

Sorry, Max

In reply to Wait with bated breath. . . .

I simply dropped my comment in the pool and went out for a couple of beers and some noodles. I had the much more important task of helping my friends kids with their homework – all good non-contentious subjects like simultaneous equations and microorganisms in wine.

“What you have to do is first add the equations and then subtract them…”

“A little fungus called “yeast” turns sugar into alcohol and a gas called carbon dioxide – that’s what makes beer fizzy. Alcohol – well, that’s the stuff that makes Daddy and Uncle Neil act stupid when they drink the beer”.

GWB was not mentioned. America was not mentioned. Jay Bennish was not mentioned so I didn’t have to explain McCarthyism to them.

Phew! That’s a relief.

You say McCarthyism as though it was a bad thing.

In reply to Sorry, Max

Joe McCarthy wasn’t as far wrong as the supporters of the FISA court are…

The FISA court was a soviet intelligence triumph via the IPS.

Joe wasn’t a bad guy, but he did believe in America First!

Well sure

In reply to You say McCarthyism as though it was a bad thing.

if you like government by innuendo, smearing, inform to get ahead manouvres. Very strange as that was a system the soviets who weren’t under your bed were making much use of as well. Personally I think he was a complete tosser, but I would I’m one of the people he would have persecuted for holding differing political beliefs.

I’ve got to admit the soviets did put plenty of moves on you though, mainly because you kept seriously underestimating the stupid commies.

I assume you got the ‘but’ or ‘n’t’ in the wrong place in the last sentence ?

McCarthy wasn’t all wrong.

In reply to Well sure

The 5th Amendment to the US Constitution protects against self-incriminations. It was never intended to prevent anyone testifying about anyone else?s illegal activity.

That is why Omerta was successful keeping the Mafia from being prosecuted…

The media and Hollywood prevented the truth from coming out by focussing on the demonization of Joe McCarthy. They destroyed the messenger rather than examine things that they didn?t want to be known.
Charles Lindbergh was destroyed by FDR and refused to allow him to return to active duty because they disagreed on some political issues. Lindbergh was a singular talent of that time.

The Truman administration illegally had surveillance on many of these pro – communist groups. Funny thing, When there is a Democratic President and Congress, criminal acts are not a big deal. Together the Democrats and the media made Joe McCarthy into a political scapegoat. Even today as the paperwork is processed from government vaults, there are more repeats of history than are normally recognized.

A different perspective

In reply to McCarthy wasn’t all wrong.

Lindbergh was flirting with Hitler. At one point in 1938 he was looking to buy a house in Berlin. Hitler had given him a medal, Goring had taken him out to dinner.

He did accept a position as Colonel in the air force in 1939.

When the war began in 1939, Lindbergh had urged the US to stay out of the war. He joined America First and was their most active speaker. He argued in Congress against Lend Lease. Roosevelt called him a “Copperhead” and Lindbergh resigned.

In a speech in 1941 Lindbergh said ; Their greatest danger lies in [the Jews?] large ownership and influence in our motion pictures, our press, our radio, and our Government. We cannot blame them for looking out for what they believe to be their interests, but we also must look out for ours.

Even after the war, after he had toured Nazi death camps, he refused to return or destroy the medal Hitler gave him. Point here – I am not accusing him of being a Nazi, but he was certainly poltically naive.

Its not McCarthy’s view that there were communists in the government that is in question – there were. Its the method, the slimy insinuations, and in some cases outright lies that he (and Nixon btw) used to try and uncover communists. Its a case of the cure being worse than the disease.

Television, the telivised hearings which McCarthy lead is what demonized him. Murrow and others had tried, but McCarthy killed himself as a political force when he and his tactics were broadcast to the nation.

James

Not arguing with his intent

In reply to McCarthy wasn’t all wrong.

I can even live with the idea that he at least in some cases was justified. But if his goal was so laudable, why did he have to lie his ass off about it. Locking up, outing and persecuting dangers to your country/society, no problem. Abuse the system of justice that ‘they are the enemy of’, to do so, is just f’ing dumb. Truth and justice don’t need enemies with friends like that.

The problem was that the truth was being manipulated by all sides.

In reply to McCarthy wasn’t all wrong.

When you dance with pigs you get dirty…

Okay, Neil

In reply to I still think the whole affair is hilarious

This may not mean a lot to you, but it’s of the utmost importance to a lot of people. Why? Because it involves not only their kids, but what it might mean to their kids’ future. Moreover, your condescending dismissal of an issue of such importance to so many people might compel me to resurrect my initial impression of you as a “Pompous Englishman”. And neither of us wants that, at least I don’t think we do. You suggest that people are making a mountain out of the preverbal molehill; but I suggest that it is you who is making a molehill out of a mountain.

If you think this is an isolated case, you are sadly mistaken. This type of thing permeates our educational system, especially at the college level. And for a high school teacher to do it with an audience who is not there by choice is unconscionable. What my kids learn is what they will become. I’m certainly all in favor of helping a kid learn to become a critical thinker, but these are very impressionable people. They have not had the experience to know when they are being fed a dish of crap. And not too many of them go home every night and talk about it with their parents. Moreover, see my previous messages about such parents getting their “news” from Katie Couric on the Today Show.

I’m one of the people, Neil, who believes that President Bush will later be more accurately compared to Abraham Lincoln, not Adolph Hitler. Adolph Hitler was one of the most evil men ever to walk the earth. Compared to President Lincoln, the contrast is obvious. Teachers like Jay Bennish are the reason I spend upwards of $10,000 a year to keep my son away from such nonsense. It’s a big deal, Neil. It’s a big fucking deal. (I wonder if that will be edited out?)

I’m one of the people, Neil, who believes that capitalism is the best system under which to live. Mr. Bennish, on the other hand, is teaching (in a geography class, no less) that capitalism is destructive. He teaches that capitalism is at odds with humanity. I disagree. He teaches that capitalism is at odds with caring and compassion. Again, I disagree. He teaches that capitalism is at odds with human rights. Go tell that to the North Koreans. And then try to show me his balanced presentation.

You know, Neil. No less than three hours ago, a guy emailed me about some people around here he didn’t exactly care for. He mentioned you as one of those people. I defended you, and I even said some very nice things about you. I’m considering recanting my comments. It’s a big deal, Neil. It’s a really, really big deal.

It’s the kind of deal that’s costing me ten thousand dollars a year!

One more thing, Neil, before you spout off again on a subject about which you know absolutely nothing. You recently asked for some reading suggestions. Well, how about putting down the fiction for a couple of days, and instead read something real and informative? How about picking up a copy of Inside American Education, by Thomas Sowell? And then get back to us about how we parents are taking our kid’s education too seriously.

And all your other comments, Neil, about what the kid did and how it was handled by the school, you have no idea what you’re talking about.

By the way, this is happening right in my own backyard, Colorado. And I don’t like it.

Parents

In reply to Okay, Neil

“And not too many of them go home every night and talk about it with their parents.”

Is this not a mroe important issue than what some ranting teacher professes?

As I mentioned before, in school, if MY teacher was preaching, I would call him to task or tell him to FO and leave the room. I was responsibe for my actions and if I didn’t like what I was taught, I had teh wherewithal to remove myself from the environment.

If I was preached to at school, I would have gone home and discussed it with my parents over dinner. The fact that parents don’t address issues with their children is the fault of the parent, are parents actually supposed to play a role in their child’s lives these days or are they supposed ot sit back and let their tax dollars raise their kids?

I think most of what the teacher said was overzealous BS, but he did raise some valid questions kids should be asking themselves when they watch the BS news and propaganda they are fed. Why is some force-fed propaganda aceptable and yet to have an alternate opinion is not?

I know, it’s not what YOU believe to be true, but why should MY kids sit there and listen to how righteous it all is?

Point is, it’s too bad the teacher was so adamant in his comments, he should have providede more speculation and let the kids question these issues themselves, it would have been very productive and resulted in a positive train of thought.

He DID actually said he appreciated the kids questions and he DID say that he didn’t even know if HIS comments were accurate, or did everyone give up before that point? He admitted to this being his OWN opinion and how he was just trying to get the kids to raise questions and actually analyze motives behind the movements. Again, in a more productuve manner, even if he had opened with his disclaimer, it COULD have been extremely productive and a good lesson for them to learn how to analyze and question both sides.

But I am sure you feel that it wasn’t what YOU would have said so it must be incorrect and wrong in every way.

I agree with your comments about parents

In reply to Parents

But I’d bet that we’d disagree on the conclusion. Too many people have become complacent with depending on government; or, as you asked, “…are they supposed to sit back and let their tax dollars raise their kids?”

Substitute just about anything else with “raise their kids”, and that’s the overall problem, in a nutshell, with what’s wrong in America — lack of taking personal responsibility.

My conclusion is to stop doing it, and to do something else, even if it means forcing a person (a parent) to take self responsibility for _________ (fill in the blank with “raise their kids”, or anything else.)

You’ve been on your soapbox over the last few years espousing a continuance of doing the same thing, but only more of it. More government involvement and control over health care is just one example. I say no, but you say yes. How about more government involvement and control over schools? I say no, let’s have less of that — much less. Do you say more? Health care and schools are just two examples. I say no with just about any issue — less government, but you say more. The difference might be that I say no to any and all government take-over of personal responsibility, whereas you might pick and choose. If so, I’m sonsistent, while you’re not. Or do you have no solutions at all? You articulated a problem, with which I agreed, but I offered a solution. What’s yours?

Disclaimer: Not all parents fit the picture I’ve been painting. In fact, most of the parents I see and personally know, or otherwise come into contact with, do indeed take their kids’ education seriously. They are involved in not only education, but everything else. Of course, I choose (and pay for) the schools for my son; and I choose the people with whom I associate. Quite frankly, I wouldn’t want to be around those who don’t, so I’m not. I do see them, however, in the stores and the malls, and by kids running amok in the neighborhoods, and in the news stories, and evidenced by the graffiti all around our cities, and especially in the outcome produced by seeing so many loser adults who cry in their beer about everything under the sun, never taking personal responsibility, and so on.

You just don’t understand consideration

In reply to I agree with your comments about parents

If it is black, then everything must be black, to remain based on a core value.

I believe that the government has its place, it allows us to not be ripped off by private doctors, it allows us to regulate development of drugs and ensure such research is controlled and regulated, as are our doctors, patient care etc. This retains a standard for ALL, young or old, rich or poor.

When it come sto PERSONAL respnsibility, I feel the same as you in many ways. WE need to be responsible also, but we cannot e expected to be personally responsible for the quality of our medical system, drugs and patient care. The only way to do that is to have the most money to ENSURE the best results.

So the government has it’s place, btu it’s place is not to hold our children’s hands whil ecrossing the street and cover their eyes when they see something they shouldn’t.

Please substantiate that assertion.

In reply to You just don’t understand consideration

“I believe that the government has its place, [b]it allows us to not be ripped off by private doctors[/b], it allows us to regulate development of drugs and ensure such research is controlled and regulated, as are our doctors, patient care etc.”

What government regulation put an end to private doctors ripping off their patients?

Why do people who can afford it come to the USA for treatment.?

In reply to Please substantiate that assertion.

There aren’t the waiting lines in the USA like there are in either Canada or the UK. I am not saying that there may not be a place for Socialized medicine, but everywhere it has been tried it is more expensive to the government per capita.

I think that the people who need help should get the help they need. Oh wait there are laws that guarantee that. The problem is not health care but competency. I am a General Surgeon that hasn’t held a scalpal since the 1970’s. I think that the problems are Medical Schools allowing less qualified foreign people in, and not following up on sending them home, as they have agreed to when they came into this country on their student Visa.

Then we need to open up those who qualify. Not make it so that even quality people can’t get in. By limiting the people who can get in, the high price of health care is assured by the cost of Medical School and the scarcity of quality coverage.

When someone with power gets sick, if they can get there they come to the Cleveland Clinic or the Mayo… There is a bigger difference in the quality of care if the patient is educated and not educated… Even in when they will persue care…

tjsanko: Health services

In reply to Please substantiate that assertion.

“Socialized medicine, but everywhere it has been tried it is more expensive to the government per capita”. That’s not at all true. I’m not pushing the NHS here, either, (despite working in the “trade” for 15 years), as we just don’t spend enough. And I also think you’ll find that everywhere is cheaper per capita in true spending terms than the US. Unfortunately, the model that seems to be the most efficient and cost-effective is the French – check ’em out. The one thing about their health service is that, by paying some of the cost of treatment up front, the consumers know what the cost of healthcare is. The lack of that direct involvement is, I believe what skews both of our health provision schemes away from common sense in opposite directions.

Should you disagree then please let me know and I’ll try and reproduce the figures. I’ve done the comparison before but I can’t remember where I put the stuff.

Neil

Healthcare costs in US and Canada

In reply to Please substantiate that assertion.

From Wikipedia:

Cost of health care
Health care is one of the most expensive items of both nations? budgets. In 2001, in Canada, about 16.2% of government money was spent on health care, while in the United States this number was 17.6%. When exchange rates are included it can be seen that government in the United States spends more per capita on health care than the government does in Canada. In 2001, the government of Canada spent $1533 (in US dollars) per person on health care, while the United States government spent $2168.

Despite the American government paying more per capita, private sources also pay far more for health care in the United States. In Canada an average of $630 dollars is spent annually by individuals or private insurance companies for health care, including dental, eye care, and drugs. In the United States this number is $2719. In 2001 the United States spent in total 13.6% of its annual GDP on health care. In Canada only 9.5% of the GDP was spent on health care. This difference is a relatively recent development. In 1971 the nations were much closer with Canada spending 7.1% of GDP on health while the U.S. spent 7.6%. Most observers take these numbers to mean that the Canadian health care system is substantially more cost effective than the American.

Some analysts do not feel the straight GDP numbers give a wholly accurate picture. The difference in cost might have more to do with societal differences than approaches to health care. Drug abuse, obesity, and violence are all more common in the United States than in Canada, and all place a burden on the health care system. Recent history has meant that the United States has far more veterans and war wounded, also somewhat increasing cost. Accounting practices also differ and in Canada fewer capital investments are included in health care costs. Another important caveat is that research and development spending in Canada is lower, but Canada still benefits from the research done in the United States. This leads some scholars, such as David Gratzer, to argue the actual cost difference, while still real, is much smaller than the straight GDP numbers would indicate.

In some areas the private system in the United States allows for greater reduction in costs. In recent decades managed care has become common in the United States, with some 70% of privately insured Americans belonging to managed care plans. Managed care is when the insurance company controls patients’ health care to reduce costs, for instance by demanding a second opinion prior to any expensive treatment. Proponents assert that managed care reduces health care costs by up to 30% with no appreciable decrease in the quality of this care.

Waiting lists in canada, and Canadians going to US for care

In reply to Please substantiate that assertion.

http://www.amsa.org/studytours/WaitingTimes_primer.pdf

The study by the way was written by an American medical student.

Summary:
There are waiting lists in Canada for certain elective procdures. Whats isn’t clear is the magnitude of the problem. Wait times vary from province to province, hospital to hosspital and procedure to procedure. The US doesn’t have wait time issues to the extent Canada has. The idea that hordes of Canadians cross the border to avoid waiting lists is a myth. A small minority of Canadians specifically cross the border to receive care.

I will add, in recent times, my province has paid for certain patients to go south rather than face long waits. The most common – drug and alcohol addicts – there are too few beds here for that and many free ones in the states.

James

Are you for real?

In reply to Please substantiate that assertion.

Canada’s medical system and teh doctors in it are tightly regulated. They are only ALLOWED to charge $X for their time. Private doctors? That would be south of where I live, in fact it’s anothre country altogether.

tjsanko

In reply to Please substantiate that assertion.

I was waiting fo rsomeone to bring up the age old and ridiculous comment about patients going to the states for treatment.

This is WAY over reported and blown WAY out of proportion. Americans come here for drugs, but that doesn’t mean our medical system is better or worse, or more or less effective. It doesnt mean you can’t buy drugs in the states, God only knows its like an expensive 7-11 there for anythign you can think of.

Why do people go to the US for surgery? Well it isn’t because there is a waiting list here, you can forget that right away. I have had some pretty intense surgery in a VERY short time, you can get MRI’s and CAT’s the same day, but peopl ecomplain about 6 month waits. Why?

In Canada, our government wont cover unneccessary surgery, or non immergent surgery if someone else is about to die. When 80 year old Bob Wakersfield complains about not getting his new hip within two weeks, it”s because someone else is in dire need of a new hip and his was just a suggestion from a doctor, not really needed, or is not needed at all or a doctor has deemed it wouldn’t help in any way. So while Timmy get’s a new hip, as his existing one is shattered in a car accoident at 14 years of age, old Bob has to wait, and rightly so.

If this was privatized, little Timmy may be laid up in bed for a year while he sends his family to teh poor house, or may have to wait until his INsurance is paid up, while old fart Bob get’s some fancy new robotic hip that he really didn’t need.

People don’t wait endlessly for help here, that’s complete BS that the lefty papers just feed on with isolated issues that are rarely as claimed.

4 real, Oz

In reply to Please substantiate that assertion.

You have more regulations, except in one crucial area of medicine: tort law. Punitive damages can be 100s of times the “victim’s” lifetime earning potential because this crazy country [b]pays[/b] people to endure “pain & suffering”. That is insane. Nobody’s pain & suffering ever translated to a bit of value rendered to me, or to anybody else. Malpractice suits should stop at damages for loss of income, but they don’t.

I think the regulations that you do have in Canada are more intelligent, and may even be more numerous. But we have the one big, stupid government intrusion into the free market that jacks up everybody’s price.

OZ the Cleveland Clinic is loaded with Canadians.

In reply to Please substantiate that assertion.

Just a sad thought you live too far from here to get this kind of health care. Actually I find that a good thing…

tsjanko think again

In reply to Please substantiate that assertion.

One big issue Canadians are actively fighting against now is a split medical system, one where private medical is an option to provincial medical.

The fact that one clinic in the US is filled with who you deem are Canadians gone awol, not to be confused with Canadians injured while in the US, Canadians living in the US while still holding Canadian citizenshio, does NOT by any stretch f the imagination represent a problem with Canadian medicine at all. To take such a miniature sample and reach such conclusions is exactly why most Americans are said to be clueless, polls and samples do not count.

Just as all similar reports from the US falsely show, they are generally based on inaccurate figures anyway.

Was it you who interviewd all tehse Canadians? And more importantly, WHY woul dthey choose to go all the way to Chicago for treatment and not some other over priced US medical facility that will feed them any drugs the doctor makes th emost money on? Comission for doctors, now THERE’s something to run screaming from! It’s not very comforting to know that the pills you have been given haven’t really been tested beyond pigs and cows, that the side effects are usually worse than the symptoms they claim to resolve, and that the only reason you are taking them for the rest of your life is because some doctor wanted another free entry for a trip to Vegas that the pharmacuetical company was offering.
Yeah, sign me up.

I have NEVER waited for ANY medical attention, and I have been admitted in more than my fair share of hospitals.

We don’t make elective surgery a priority over some poor sick kid who actually needs help, now THAT’S something I would be embarrassed to admit as an American.

As has already been pointed out by James RL, the FACTS and REAL numbers prove otherwise. Try reading the other posts too.

One day OUTPATIENT vascular surgery.

In reply to Please substantiate that assertion.

No reason to go to Chicago. Cleveland Clinic is in OHIO. OZ you idiot. At the outpatient center, where I take my wife for vascular surgery, there are ~500 car slots. There are by count 17 cars in one row of 50 that are from Canada. My wife assures me that there are no Canadians in her department.

If 17/50 = ~1/3 with 500 cars in the lot there should be 150 Canadians getting vascular surgery or examinations…

I know there are several foreign leaders here when the SS closes the entrances and my wife has to walk in from the street…

Gee, so I missed Dew Carey last night

In reply to Please substantiate that assertion.

A simple slip but its not that I didn’t actually know where Cleveland is, unlike yourself who thinks French Canadians come from BC and that all of your resources come from south of from the middle east.

Yoru speculative numbers also don’t prove anything either. So out of 50 cars, 17 are Canadians who you have decided fled to teh US for help because of Canada’s poor health care system. I suppose they were also French Canadians from BC too.

If you had any credibility or even a remote clue of what you were talking about, I would give you SOME credit, as you have already proven you don’t, then I won’t.

OZ, been to Vancouver and know where BC is.

In reply to Please substantiate that assertion.

OZ, I said Canadians. Not Quebecois, as I didn’t specify which ones. What I can tell you is that many people from Ontario come to the clinic. This is especially true for heart care and for vascular surgery.

What I didn’t know was that you have different health care from Province to Province.

If you watch Drew Carey to make your decisions about Cleveland, you think we are all retail shop clerks, janitors and bumbling idiots. The only place in the show that is even slightly similar to any place I know is that the Warsaw tavern may be somewhat like Sokolowski’s, but they have eliminated the best buffet of ethnic food in the world… Their Kielbasa, pierogi etc. is to die for…

What I don’t understand is that why would Ontario have so different a socialized medicine plan, or Quebec from BC. If there was a good one, (I am not ceeding the point) why didn’t it get rolled out across the country? If you understand my surprise at the weaker Canadian federal government.

Spout off

In reply to Okay, Neil

Actually, Max, I didn’t “spout off”. I deliberately took a position in total opposition to most, if not all of the other positions here to invite (incite?) comment. I suppose that I was successful.

It’s a common debating tactic and one I use quite often when a debate is going nowhere. As everyone – including me – is debating here by choice I think it’s a perfectly reasonable potion for [b]me[/b] to take.

Do I think [b]Bennish[/b] was doing the same? Well, I think he was trying to but not doing it very well and letting his own emotion get the better of him. He wasn’t coming over as a good teacher and he’ll almost certainly be sacked now and I wonder what sort of teacher will replace him. I’ll guarentee that it will be someone who will feed the kids the bare facts according to the “Book of Rules” and I think that the kids will be the worse for it.

Given the fact that Bennish’s politics appear to be in total opposition to your own position, is that your major objection to him? Would you feel any happier if his replacement uses the same geography class to compare Bush to Lincoln and extol the virtue of capitalism? I’ll compliment you and say that I think not. I think we both reckon that good teachers get the balance right and draw kids out and make them think.

I do, however, think your reaction to this in this thread is coloured by the fact that Bennish’s politics are in opposition to yours.

I don’t usually do any real anti-Bush stuff but I must admit that I backed off a couple of feet from your “President Bush will later be more accurately compared to Abraham Lincoln” comment. Time will tell as to what history – US history in particular – records on GWB. UK hisatory will not record him as Lincoln, of that I am sure. That;s another thread, though.

True because Lincold freed 16 Million Blacks

In reply to Spout off

Bush has freed more than 50 million Arabs from oppressive regimes. That is even against the international will. When The UN members question if the Mid-East is ready for Democracy, they are supporting despotism, and looking toward one world government to solve these problems.

What I don’t see is what The USA has gotten out of the UN since Truman helped to institute it.

The UN is anti-American and it is not helping the world toward Democracy. The French, Germans, and the Russians who support true imperialism only resent that we see things from a right and wrong, Black and white type of viewpoint. The gray of international politics shouldn?t be considered. The absolute of right and wrong should be balanced with our country’s interest.

The current resident of 1600 Pensylvania Avenue and I are not in lock step. But, I believe he will be revered with Reagan, and Washington. I disagree with his current positions on spending and many other things…

I think that the US has freed millons from tyrany. Bush may have gone with his feelings rather than evidence, but nobody thinks Saddam was benevolent. Tony, the people who appease tyrants enable the true Adolph Hitlers and the Saddam Husseins of this world.

All Evil men need to succeed is for good men to do

NOTHING!!!

Shot yourself in the foot there

In reply to True because Lincold freed 16 Million Blacks

Saddam’s biggest backers for years were the US and europe, first against the red menace and then against Khomeini. He was always a nasty b’stard, we kept him in power, we effectively enslaved the iraqi people by turning a blind eye to his actions for years because he was the enemy of our enemy.
You may be right maybe histoy will mark GWB as Lincoln, but if it does it will be afghan and Iraqi historians who make that call, they are the only ones with the right.

I agree with Tony

In reply to True because Lincold freed 16 Million Blacks

that, in this case, the judgement of the Iraqi and Afghan people is the one that counts in judging Bush’s actions.

I’d like to add a couple of points. Firstly, neither Afghanistan nor Iraq are yet free by any criteria, yours or theirs – which I suspect are also quite different.

It’s also worth noting that Afghanistan and Iraq were exactly the same countries with exactly the same undemocratic governments in August 2001 as they were October 2001 yet there was no indication of any pending invasion of Afghanistan nor much of interest in the US’s attitude towards Iraq other than your usual disinterested impatience with the UN weapons inspectors. I don’t remember any evidence of George W Bush’s Unselfish Desire to Free the Opressed People of the World in the Inaugural Address at the start of his presidency. I don’t actually remember Bush saying anything about anywhere outside the US in his first six months in office.

Other than dumping Kyoto, of course…

The survivors always write history

In reply to True because Lincold freed 16 Million Blacks

The side on the short end of the stick of a war has their own history, but they don’t usually have it considered by mainstream…

To the Victor goes the spoils…

Problem is Tony, Neil, there is dung on the other half of the stick…

That wasn’t our point

In reply to The survivors always write history

Tony’s point – and my agreement with it – is that only the Afghani and Iraqi people have the [b]right[/b] to define the success or failure or GWB’s efforts.

You have invaded both countries – without the sanction of International Law in the case of Iraq – and are attempting to replace the governmental and political structures of both countries with ones defined by the US in your own image.

Good luck.

If you know people are watching

In reply to I still think the whole affair is hilarious

your MORE likely to try to do a good job, huh?

I have applied at the local school and will start teaching them that evolution is the great evil lie set out to make you think you are a monkey! Doesn’t have to be true because I have a right to free speech. Obviously it doesn’t have to be TRUE speech or even intellegent speech.

In MANY high schools, if you WERE to voice opposition to the instructor you are just setting yourself up for a hard time. Maybe a trip to the principle, maybe just having everything you turn in being graded harshly. Teachers have all the power, and because we place way too much importance on a good grand instead of actually learning anything, there isn’t a lot that can be done.

“…out to make you think you are a monkey”?

In reply to If you know people are watching

Actually, religion is “the great evil lie set out to make you think you are a monkey” by insisting that morality can only be based on myth.

Evolution is a product of the great process logic, subset science, that asserts that man’s mind is capable of understanding his environment. Evolution concludes that men are the [b]descendants[/b] of monkeys. Religion turns them [b]into[/b] monkeys.

does it matter

In reply to “…out to make you think you are a monkey”?

if we don’t hold people to the facts and allow them to push their personal agendas, I can say whatever I want and it is just ducky!

If we descended from monkeys, why are their still monkeys? 😀 (monkey boy)

surely you understood the idea behind my post, taken to an extreme to show how dangerous and stupid it would be to allow such things?

I don’t know what you aren’t telling me.

In reply to does it matter

jdclyde: “surely you understood the idea behind my post…”

Absolutely: Maybe not. Did the words you chose literally express the idea behind your post?

And don’t call me “surely”, the name is Absolutely!

I know, lets all get upset about it, it COULD have been a good debate.

In reply to high school geography teacher goes nuts

Rather than say anything about it, like the kids who sat there and listened to this prat , prattle on about his personal beliefs.

If MY teacher had started to preach his personal gospel when I was in school, I would have called him to task, or at least tol dhim to FO and prove his point.

The guy actually had some good points, he also had some pure rants. But nobody did anything about it? Why not? Are kids in US schools taught to just sit and listen without interaction? A few kids mumble replies to his questions, but nobody actually stands up and has a view to share. BAAAAAAA< sounds like a herd of sheep again, a new flock rising through the ranks of the US propaganda filled educational system. Either way, no matter what happens to the teacher, the kids still listened to it, if you say it's all crap, will they then forget it? One or two kids actually did raise some counterviews, this COULD have been a VERY healthy and productive discussion for the class if the teacher wasn't so agressively vocal of his personal beliefs. I think the same lecture is a good idea, at least in a far mroe constructive way and not just as an anti-Bush rant. He has some valid views or at least creates questions that kids should be asking themselves, but not in a manner that is productive at all. It's healthy to actually scrutinize your system of government, it's healthy to question the political moves and motives of your leaders, but it has to be done in a more creatve format. Teh teacher really makes some good points and raises some valid questions though, no matter how much you wave your flag.

“nobody did anything about it?” Oz?

In reply to I know, lets all get upset about it, it COULD have been a good debate.

Do you remember how this got into the news in the first place? One of the kids [b]did something about it![/b] He recorded the teacher’s tirade, and reported behavior he thought inappropriate, possibly illegal, to the correct authorities. Whay else do you think the students should have done instead?

Missed that point didn’t you

In reply to “nobody did anything about it?” Oz?

My whole argument is that the kids sat there and took it. ONE, young man started to speak up and ask VERY good questions, everyone else just mumbled answers to the teachers questions.

Would you not expect YOUR son or daughter to stand up and offer THEIR personal opinion if a teachers was so vocal about his own opinion? What has happened to kids? When I went to school, we didn’t just sit like sheep and inhale a stream of knowledge. Classes with such lectures were opportunities for the class to debate, discuss and share personal opinion. We questioned what we were being told, we asked questions in order to view different angles of a given topic.

In this case, the teacher was very adamant and personal in his comments, after his “rant” he even explained to teh class that he may be completely wrong in HIS opinion and that it was ONLY HIS opinion.
This could have been an EXCELLENT excercise for the kids if it was tamed down a bit and if mro of the kids stood up and retoreted with their own questions and concerns, as just one rather interested and defensive student did; instead, it is a secret recording taken to authorities who have acted about as well as most here have.

Instead of encouraging the same thought provoking discussion, except with a more creatively focused and controlled opinion, they are simply knee-jerk reacting to someone who has seemingly strayed from the government authorized propaganda feeding plan.

The fact that ONE kid quietly recorded and submitted the tape is probably the saddest part. Why didn’t he speak up instead? Why didn’t others start to raise questions or stand for their own opinions or what they have been led to believe?

Oz, I’m about to listen to the recording.

In reply to Missed that point didn’t you

From what I have read, what I suspect to hear is something so inane that intelligent youth knew it would be a waste of breath to “debate” or in any way engage this “teacher”. I won’t say more until I have listened.

Nice one!

In reply to Oz, I’m about to listen to the recording.

“Something so inane that intelligent youth…”

Priceless save!

We all know that the kids sat there in thier oversize ski jackets, slack jawed, listening to i-Pods, thinking whether to buy Jack Daniels or Bacardi to take to Toby’s party and merely mumbling responses when questioned.

Intelligent youth…ONE kid had his say, in an INTELLIGENT classroom, that would have made the other kids speak up and defende their INTELLIGENT opinions themselves. Passive sheep is all I heard.

How long has it beensince YOU saw a high school classroom? There are no school marms these days.

It’s been about 10 years I guess.

In reply to Nice one!

I would have been the one kid arguing with the blowhard at the front of the room. With the added wisdom of experience, I’d probably just listen to my Walkman.

So

In reply to It’s been about 10 years I guess.

there woul dbe no issue to debate or contest. You woul didly sit by and just snmugly think that you knew better and were right.

Wouldn’t th ebetter exerise, as a student, be to contradict and debate the issue? if not, why are you here?

Good question, Oz. I think I’ll leave.

In reply to It’s been about 10 years I guess.

Just kidding. Maybe it’s just because even if I read some SHOUTING I am still free to play it in my head at a reasonable volume in a calm tone, or maybe it’s because IT pros really do think more clearly, or at least a few say interesting things, thoughtfully, here on TR. Bottom line, I have more respect for most of the threads (that I choose to enter) than for the shrill likes of Jay Bennish. I think that believing that one’s views are valid should motivate a person to try to be calm, in order to be taken seriously by people who don’t yet agree, but do have the ability to think.

So, no, I don’t mean that I won’t ever argue when I hear something stupid being said, but if the speaker is clearly too irate & stupid to ever think, I just don’t bother. My impression is that the student with the recorder reached essentially the same conclusion.

Question: was the one student voice that was loudest & clearest the one recording, or another student near the recorder? It sounds like that student, whoever he was, was trying to point out the logical flaws in the most ridiculous parts of the “teacher’s” rant, and I have the impression that the student had tried challenging Bennish’s assumptions before, and even invalidated them before, but the lies kept coming, day after day, week after week. I’d say the student learned the lesson of democratic citizen activism very well. It’s much easier to get a teacher fired for lying, but it’s the same principle as impeaching an elected official: any employee of the state is responsible to serve the people, not their personal agenda, and the recording shows that Bennish did not meet that obligation.

NOT one kid quietly recorded

In reply to Missed that point didn’t you

the kid that asked the questions WAS the kid doing the recordings.

It was THEN turned over to the school that did NOTHING.

It wasn’t until after the school blew it off that it was then turned over to the press.

sounds like he DID do something about it, and he followed a logical order.

For a pansy

In reply to NOT one kid quietly recorded

I’d have had it out with the teacher, if he was so firm in his convictions. Why even BOTHER with reporting, or recording it. Get the others to speak up and turn the class into a forum for an hour, now THAT’S productive. A lot more productive than listening to how America is the only country on the flat planet we live on and anyone NOT in America is floating in limbo trying to get in the country.

You daffodil!

In reply to For a pansy

There was one student voice on the recording that was more audible than all the other students’ voices. I assume that was the student who owned the recorder, and will continue with that assumption until told otherwise.

That student [b]did[/b] confront the teacher, repeatedly, and was answered with lame excuses and no admission of being undeniably wrong, although the Bennish definitely was, repeatedly. I think the student did his diligence and correctly identified a corrupt ideologue who didn’t submit to reason and fact, but stuck to a false premise, even in spite of the student’s corrections.

Fire the whacko, and give him none of the normal severance benefits. Let him look for work at a tabloid or Crossfire.

being told otherwise

In reply to You daffodil!

I have heard the interviews with the kid, and it WAS him on the tape.

This was not the first time this “teacher” went off like this, and past students have stepped up saying he has been like this few YEARS and allowed to use his position of authority over kids to distort reality.

Well done

In reply to You daffodil!

No wwe all have proof of just how narrow your thought process is. Unfortunately you are also lumping yourself in with those ‘unmentionables’ you contest with so often.

Lets assume they havea class of 22 students. Out of 22 student, ONE, 1, UNO, actually stood up and questioned a teacher on a rant.

That would be less than 5% of America able to actually speak for themselves. that’s just too typical. BAAAAAA.

And while I also agre ethat the teacher was over the top in his comments, he DID liste tp the kid and he did rebut, with little or no reply form teh student. Let’s at least credit teh teacher with a nobel try, even if YOU feel he was wrong. It does show that no matter how hard you try, sheep will always follow each other without contest.

why report it?

In reply to For a pansy

If YOU are paid by an employer to do a job, but you decide you want to spend your time doing something else, you deserve to be fired.

This person is a waste of tax payers money and air.

There is NOTHING good or productive that comes from his ranting and raving at a bunch of kids, as he was not even attempting to engage them.

Again, also a complete violation of stated school policys, making every favorable argument FOR him invalid.

Oh yeah, not the only country, just the best! B-) Enjoy limbo.

The problem is that that is what the Liberals believe.

In reply to NOT one kid quietly recorded

They believe they have the freedom to say what they want.

They believe that you as a conservative do not have the same right. If you identify a problem it may be hate speech…

The problem Hate speech should be just as protected as the anti war protester… I may disagree with what you say but I have already fought for your right to say it…

We have seen that here

In reply to The problem is that that is what the Liberals believe.

with the ones that stepped up trying to make this as no big deal or say he was within his RIGHTS.

To make the claim that his RANT and then slamming of anyone that tries to make counter points is in ANYWAY productive show just how dishonest liberals are more than willing to be if it fits with what they believe.

They completely forget that you don’t have ANY “free speach” rights when your on the clock. This nut was on the clock and HAS to abide by the rules and regulations of his employer.

Teacher’s Unions back this slime bucket.

In reply to “nobody did anything about it?” Oz?

The problem is that liberals thaink that you can say anything, but they don’t realize that they will be held responsible to the words they say…

responsible? yeah right

In reply to Teacher’s Unions back this slime bucket.

your one funny dude.

They think that their “freedom” allows them the RIGHT to say ANYTHING they want, ANYWHERE they want with no accountability to accuracy.

They also feel that you are infringing on their rights if you TRY to hold them accountable.

ITLobo, anyone?

You CAN say what you want. But others have that SAME right to say what they want and they WILL tell you exactly what they think of your speech.

The double edged sword bites them more than not, but they are too dishonest to see or accept it. Must be someone elses fault, huh?

wave what flag?

In reply to I know, lets all get upset about it, it COULD have been a good debate.

this “teacher” was not doing his job, period.

And no, kids generally at 14/15 years old are not taught to stand up in the middle of a “lecture” and tell an instructor that he is full of it.

The teaching was not trying to discuss anything, and simply got hostile when any counter points were brought up.

As for “some valid questions”, too bad much of the information was inaccurate.

As for flag waving, you just shot any hope of a credible thought, as no one said anything about flag waving, or brought up the fact that America is better than everywhere else. Guess that part is a given, huh? 😀

He begins with a VERY good question:

In reply to high school geography teacher goes nuts

Why DOES the United States drop poison on the crops of farmers who are growing coca to supply a demand FROM THE UNITED STATES?

LEGALIZE IT.

Edit: and Bennish goes on…Yes, he’s too strident, he sounds like he’s opening for Angela Davis at a radical leftist rally, not teaching a high school class. But, why DON’T we let other countries dump poison on North Carolina’s tobacco? Tobacco DOES kill more people than the drugs on which the United States drops poison in other countries?

because

In reply to He begins with a VERY good question:

we import more from africa than they grow in NC.

That isn’t why and you know it.

In reply to because

It’s the farm lobby, the fattest of all the swine at the mother pig’s teat.

no, that is not why

In reply to That isn’t why and you know it.

the farm lobby is NOT why we stop people from poisoning our tobacco crops…….

We don’t let people into the US to poison other peoples private property. Heck, we don’t even allow US citizens the “right” to vandalize!

address both parts of the question or concede

In reply to no, that is not why

Why does the United States poison other countries lethal drug crops [b]but[/b] not permit any foreign nations to poison our own crops that are [b]even more[/b] lethal?

The answers – and more

In reply to address both parts of the question or concede

You asked, [i]”Why DOES the United States drop poison on the crops of farmers who are growing coca to supply a demand FROM THE UNITED STATES?”[/i]

Because it’s illegal in the United States, and it finds its way into the country anyway; and it’s also illegal in the country upon which the authorities are dropping poison to kill the plants, but it still finds its way out nonetheless; and because the United States is doing it with both the blessings and the support of the legitimate government of the countries in question.

To compare it to tobacco, and to put it in the same classification of tobacco is ludicrous. Tobacco is legal in both countries, and the U.S. government has given no other country permission to spray poison over North Carolina.

Find a substance that’s illegal in both the United States and the country into which massive amounts of that substance is illegally smuggled into, and then make your argument.

[i]You said, “It’s the farm lobby, the fattest of all the swine at the mother pig’s teat.”[/i]

No, it’s the reason I stated.

Besides, the largest and most influential lobby in Washington is the NEA (the teachers union), not the farmers. The trial-lawyers probably are bigger than the farmers as well. I would even throw in the government employees lobby being bigger and wielding more influence than the farmers. Why not do some research and list the ten thousand plus lobby groups in the order of money and favorable legislation gained, or at least the top ten? (No, I won’t do it because I didn’t make the claim that the farmers are the biggest, you did.)

Disclaimer: I am in favor of legalizing most recreational drugs in the United States. But I try not to let my emotions run away with my sense of being reasonable, realistic, and accurate.

The taxpayers own your soapbox, Bennish.

In reply to high school geography teacher goes nuts

I agree with a lot that Jay Bennish has said in the first 4:30 (I’ve paused playback) but the bottom line is that he is a paid employee. I have to sneak in a couple of posts to TR during my state-mandated morning and afternoon breaks, when I want to rant, and make my serious points in the evening, because the rest of my hours at work belong to my employer. That’s all there is to it. Fire him without benefits.

4:52 wrong on democracy – “blind, naive faith in democracy”

In reply to high school geography teacher goes nuts

If he had the credentials to teach the topics he’s discussing, Jay Bennish would know that the neo-cons are exactly right about democracy. Statistics deals with tendencies, not absolutes, but the tendency of more democratic nations to not be aggressors in war is dramatic compared to tyrannies. I can hardly stand to listen to any more.

Jay Bennish: “Who is probably the single most violent nation on Planet Earth?”

One kid: (unenthusiastically) “We are.”

Another kid: (even less enthusiastic) “Us.”

Jay Bennish: “Blah, blah, blah…DO YOU SEE THE DANGEROUS PRECEDENT??? Blah, blah, blah…Oh, sorry, I think I spit on you a little bit.”

Bennish’s criticism of the role of the United States’ and the western nations in the creation of Israel depended crucially on the assumption that having some self-interest in Israel inherently diminishes our moral stature. I contend that Bennish’s lack of self-interest in the topics he discusses contributes to his careless inaccuracy.

OK class, say it with me…

In reply to high school geography teacher goes nuts

What have we all learned here now?

“Extremists, from any side, are bad.”

“Extremists, from any side, are bad.” ???

In reply to OK class, say it with me…

Really?

So, Saint Nick, who is extremely generous, is “bad”?

Or is the use of “extremism” as pejorative just a sign that those who use it thus have no values strong enough to identify with a [b]strong[/b] belief in anything?

Being generous can be bad

In reply to “Extremists, from any side, are bad.” ???

See my bank balance for proof.

Exremism to me isn’t having a strong belief it’s being unable to contemplate examining it to see if it still holds true.

But that isn’t really “extremism” is it?

In reply to Being generous can be bad

“Exremism to me isn’t having a strong belief it’s being unable to contemplate examining it to see if it still holds true.”

I think the phrase “wearing blinders” fits that description better. Mohandas Gandhi was extremely peaceful. Stephen Hawking is extremely smart. Come on, dpetrak, what’s wrong with extremism, really?

With a boot on the other foot

In reply to But that isn’t really “extremism” is it?

Taking an extreme position generous, pacifist, mathematical, whatever. As in one not held by the majority.

Does this make you extremist, or does the desire to impose your belief system on others, as opposed to proselytising or not giving one.

Would you say your position on objectivism was extreme, or mine on socialism?

If Bennish had been instilling the virtues of objectivism, which is definitley a minority mindset, would you have considered him an extremist, or a sensible chap?

So are we talking extremist as in the dictionary definition or the pejorative label used by politicians.

both

In reply to With a boot on the other foot

“So are we talking extremist as in the dictionary definition or the pejorative label used by politicians.”

Words have literal meanings (dictionary definitions). If politicians (or anybody) uses one or more words differently than their dictionary definitions, it may be interesting to define the difference between the real meaning(s) of the word(s) and the meaning in their deviant usage.

“If Bennish had been instilling the virtues of objectivism, which is definitley a minority mindset, would you have considered him an extremist, or a sensible chap?”

Ayn Rand once wrote, and I agree absolutely, that reality gives man just one “commandment”: think. Whatever name you give to a philosophy that demands active exercise of the intellect as its first step, it is incompatible with the tone and carelessness with fact that Bennish exhibited on tape. So the premise of your question, Bennish instilling the virtues of objectivism, contains a crucial logical contradiction.

“Taking an extreme position generous, pacifist, mathematical, whatever. As in one not held by the majority.

Does this make you extremist, or does the desire to impose your belief system on others, as opposed to proselytising or not giving one.”

The imposition of a belief system, however popular or unpopular, is tyranny, not extremism, although more extreme points of view tend to be ignored by populaces or imposed on them, never adopted voluntarily by many people. The difference between popularity and morality is the reason that charters of successful democratic governments include guarantees of individual freedom that serve as prohibitions of tyranny by the majority.

“Would you say your position on objectivism was extreme, or mine on socialism?”

I’d say my position on Objectivism is inconsistent: I have a tendency to be excessively emotional.

I have no idea how I would characterize your position on socialism in general. I’ll agree or disagree with individual statements, but I don’t remember enough of your posts to characterize you.

Don’t know enough to characterise

In reply to both

There’s always a nugget somewhere.
That’s where the label extremist comes from the assumption that anyone who holds such apposite views one subject must of course hold equally contentious views about everything else.

Tony is a socaialist, therefore he wants you to give up all your income, your religion your independance and grow food badly.

Must admit that’s close though.
LOL

Show me yours…

In reply to But that isn’t really “extremism” is it?

What’s your definition of extremism?

Now, what’s your definition of extremism in a casual, but politically connected, discussion?

extremism

In reply to Show me yours…

a code word used to dismiss, without consideration, any point of view substantially different than the one held by the speaker. The accused “extremist” is as often more moral than the accuser as less moral. Being called “extremist” could mean that I’m principled or that I’m a terrorist. In politically connected discussions, the word is so badly defined that it is irrelevant & meaningless.

Indeed labelling someone as an extremist

In reply to extremism

is as much to do with your own position as theirs.

Marxism ———–Socialist ———–Capitalist

Anyone is extremely far away from the other.

Labels /categorisations can be an excuse not to think.
Which is why the media and politicians encourage their use.

Oh, Tony, don’t you think that’s a bit cynical?

In reply to extremism

Tony Hopkinson: “Labels /categorisations can be an excuse not to think.
Which is why the media and politicians encourage their use.”

It’s terribly unfair to say that labels are “an excuse not to think”. And some labels are very helpful. “Hand me that pint of beer” is much more convenient than the gestural languages probably employed by pre-historic man! Overuse of labels doesn’t enable modern men “not to think” altogether, just not to think anything that might disrupt their faith in whatever premise(s) they stupidly refuse to ever check.

Yes but was it a beer ?

In reply to extremism

could have been a lager, or a stout.
You could be sat at the bar with your brain turned off and someone gives you a glass of budweiser !

After the first sip, you’d be cursing yourself fo not paying attention. A little less alert and they could have stuck you with a glass of Miller Lite, and wouldn’t you be sorry then.

Are you serious

In reply to “Extremists, from any side, are bad.” ???

You’re really just trolling, aren’t you?

Are you saying you couldn’t understand my point of view above?

I gave some links to definitions below, perhaps you could see if your understanding of them is the same.

I disagree wholeheartedly

In reply to OK class, say it with me…

Idiots who are willing to resort to violence without a clue or without understanding the consequences are the problem. Not just the extremist.

I am an extremist, but you can wave you hand in front of my face and call me names. Your right to wave your hand ends at my nose. If you hit me you’ll be sorry… The Islamic extremists never understood that they can burn my flag and call my country names, but when they touch me or my property or my contrymen’s property, they are getting the accumulated anger right back at them…

I fail to see where you disagree

In reply to I disagree wholeheartedly

When you say “Not just the extremist” you are wholely encompassing and including my statement, but saying you disagree?

You continue to saying something else which seems fascinating on a different level:

“Your right to wave your hand ends at my nose.”

So, I can wind up, and throw the punch – if I miss that’s OK. If I hit, that’s not OK, but you intend to do nothing to prevent me from actually hitting your nose?

Perhaps I meant to FAKE hitting you in the nose and stop JUST short of it – where you say I’m perfectly still within my rights. Do you honestly believe you would allow that to happen?

If you didn’t allow it to happen, would I then be right to challenge your right to “pre-emptive” defense if it involved you hitting me before I could hit you?

I’m not taking either side, mind you, just trying to drag your true definition out of you…

As a 2nd Degree Black Belt

In reply to I fail to see where you disagree

I suggest that you fake from farther away than you can hit…

I am a Nidan and understand that the attempt of intimidation means that you will escalate until you “get your way”. I refuse to play that game.

The threat indicates your willingness to use force.

I will stop aggression, occasionally by stopping the threatened action before actual violence. (My smile used to scare people when I was on active duty…) I am not a pushover, but I have no desire to take damage.

Just say that you pay your money, and you take your chances… My pre-empive kick to your balls might get people mad at me, but your high voice will indicate that there is only so far that you can go.

Yeah

In reply to As a 2nd Degree Black Belt

Whenever you feel like actually discussing the actual point of the thread, you jsut let us all know.

Very interesting responses

In reply to OK class, say it with me…

I do wish there had been more, though.

Definitions

In reply to OK class, say it with me…

Since you all have access to it, I’ll start by using http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=extremist

This is a base as to what has been commonly used in US discussions recently. But that definition isn’t exactly the same as what is typically meant. It’s not as extreme.

So let’s move one to http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=extremism

“n : any political theory favoring immoderate uncompromising policies”

Since extremists practice extremism, this seems to get close to the general understanding of the word in current discussions.

Immoderate and uncompromising are very good words for what was intended when I stated the root post above.

Now, let’s consider someone who is extremely generous. Is that person an extremist? Well, that’s not the common understanding of the word, is it? In fact, I submit that the typical use of the word extreme is bastardized from it’s true definition, too. It is overused and applied, well, too generously.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=extreme

In general, the word extreme has a negative connotation in social contexts.

So, I think those above understood my point, but chose to be contrarians. C’est la vie, no?

Jay Bennish will be back in the classroom on Monday

In reply to high school geography teacher goes nuts

And although I disagree with what he did, I agree with the decision of the school district. This has been an overall learning experience for students, for teachers, and especially this very young teacher, and for the public at large. I hope it leads to providing more balance in presentations, and illustrates the problems with such things in our schools. But I won’t hold my breath.

I agree

In reply to Jay Bennish will be back in the classroom on Monday

I also agree with you. As a side note, the student who made this recording also feels that Jay Bennish should not be fired but allowed to continue his teaching career.

I am truly amazed with your opinion

In reply to Jay Bennish will be back in the classroom on Monday

I agree with everything you said. I think it is a learning experience for everyone. I hope that the event has brought emphasis to the challenges of our world today and how they are conveyed to young students in the education system. Maybe it will lead to an improvement in the quality of our education, something we need badly.

And if nothing else

In reply to I am truly amazed with your opinion

it has been a wake-up call for parents to watch out for teachers in our public education. They are there for their own political agenda, not to educate kids.

Teach your kids what is right and wrong.
Teach them to stand up for themselves and not let nutcases like this push crap on you as if it were a fact.
Talk to your kids about WHAT they are being “taught”.
Talk to the school to find out where they stand on cases like this and avoid wingnut teachers if the system is too corrupt to remove them.

If they were to fire him. . . . .

In reply to I am truly amazed with your opinion

….then to be fair, they’d have to fire every teacher in the district (or the state) who’s done the same kind of thing.

Like that teacher who recently had her elementary school kids write letters of protest to President Bush about a proposed sale of public lands. Like another school teacher who took the kids to a protest rally. Like another teacher who gives lower grades to kids who argue against the man-made global warming myth in a paper. Like another teacher…….

I could go on and on. But they’d have to fire a large percentage of teachers! And then we have “tenure” entering into the equation. According to the rules negotiated by the teachers union, most school districts couldn’t fire an incompetent teacher if they wanted to.

The government run school systems in America are pitiful. Jay Bennish isn’t the problem, per se, but rather a symptom of a much larger one.

Look at the schools in this teacher’s school district

In reply to I am truly amazed with your opinion

.
http://denverpostbloghouse.com/csap/index.php?action=FindSchool&school=&district=130&optSenior=1

CHERRY CREEK HIGH SCHOOL – Performance This Year: Excellent

CHEROKEE TRAIL HIGH SCHOOL – Performance This Year: High

SMOKY HILL HIGH SCHOOL – Performance This Year: High

GRANDVIEW HIGH SCHOOL – Performance This Year: High

EAGLECREST HIGH SCHOOL – Performance This Year: Average

OVERLAND HIGH SCHOOL – Performance This Year: Average

Overland High School, Jay Bennish’s school, ranked at the bottom of all schools in that district. I wonder why? And I wonder why you, and others, consider him a good teacher?

presentation

In reply to high school geography teacher goes nuts

He’s just presenting facts with a slightly twisted viewpoint.

they aren’t “facts”

In reply to presentation

if they are all wrong.

Besides sharing the rabid Bush hate that is very popular in liberal circles, what he was saying should have made even the most loonie of you step back.

Did me

In reply to they aren’t “facts”

Not sure whether I’m the MOST loonie though.

and everyone else

In reply to Did me

that has even a little bit of intellectual honesty.

Tony, I said EVEN, to show how EXTREME and completely out of touch with reality you would HAVE to be to NOT think this man is a nutcase and should not be around children.

Has anyone seen pictures lately? I heard he cut his hair and suited up to TRY to look less loonie while he fights this.

You “heard”, jdclyde?

In reply to and everyone else

“Has anyone seen pictures lately? I heard he cut his hair and suited up to TRY to look less loonie while he fights this.”

The best way to prevent distortion of what’s presented as fact is to cite your sources, and demand the same from others.

yes, heard

In reply to You “heard”, jdclyde?

from a person I have known and trusted for over 25 years that follows current events and politics.

This was NOT watercooler talk.

I have just been too preoccupied with my house to turn on the news or anything. Not even out in TR land as much…… 🙁

Can’t wait for this house to sell……

a person YOU have known & trusted for over 25 years

In reply to yes, heard

I don’t care if you were standing next to a water cooler, a beer keg, or a pot field. I don’t know your source, therefore I don’t trust your information. Jay Bennish did not cite his sources, therefore the students had good reason not to trust his. See the link?

your honesty?

In reply to yes, heard

of comparing my request if anyone can confirm something I had heard, with a loon passing off his crap as facts.

Kind of like comparing Bush to Hitler? 🙂

comparing.

In reply to yes, heard

Your “Kind of like comparing Bush to Hitler? :)” is a tricky one.
[i]Hitler was elected in a democracy, as Bush is
Hitler started a war, as Bush did
Hitler checked on citizens, as Bush does[/i]
Won’t like the conclusion that can be drawn from here. [b]I sure won’t like that! [/b] (although I don’t like the Bush administration very much)

I know you didn’t mean so but you left the door open to do so. Be careful with what you can imply.

And yes I know I’m stepping on your toes, on purpose but not to hurt you. It is just to make you aware of what can be done with the words you typed.

To the comparison that Absolutely made regarding to your friend and you versus Jay Bennish not reveling his sources to the class, I think that; it is more that he doesn’t trust you or your ability to know whether or not to trust your friend is the issue, then that he dis-agrees with you. Though I do find it strange that he scrambles up your figure of speech on the ?This is NOT watercooler talk?, as if he doesn’t understand it as being the equivalent of a ?Not a ?chit-chat? talk?. Special as he agrees upon you that the students were right too not to trust their teacher. (As I make up out of your critics about this teacher and he does state about the students)

Rob

comparing – try again

In reply to yes, heard

they are both male.
they both have/had a dog.
they both had a mother and a father.

sure, any simpleton can make basic “comparisons” that mean nothing.

Look at how Hitler got into power. He had a gang of thugs that beat anybody up that apposed him.
Bush was elected and re-elected by following the existing rules in place for elections. The first time he won by the electoral collage which the simplitons of the nations can’t seem to understand. The second time he won by both the electoral AND majority vote, and was STILL not accepted by the simpletons. He recieved more votes than any president has ever recieved in our history.

When Hitler went into a country, it was HIS. He was not above killing any and everyone in the way.
When Bush went into a country, it was given to the people of that country. Bush does what can be done to avoid civilian casualties and respect the people that are there. He even allowed the stupidity of allowing Iraqie soldiers to defile shrines by fighting from them, and not leveling the shrines or in many cases even firing back.

yeah, I can see the similarities already.

Hitler tried to wipe out an entire race.
Bush tried to give an race self rule.

Yeah, more and more I can see your point.

Hitler gave firey speaches, screaming at the top of his lungs, inciting people with hate.
Bush gives quiet speechs that to not advocate hate for other people. He has gone out of his way to make it clear this in not an assult on Islam or Muslims.

pretty dishonest comparison if you are trying to say they are similar.

Thanks, rob.mekel

In reply to yes, heard

I didn’t have a major disagreement with jdclyde’s statement, this time, I just found it ironic, and chose to use the “teachable moment” to emphasize that if citation of source had been emphasized in Bennish’s class, or [b]in any before his[/b], the students would have been much better able to take his arguments apart.

One or more of Bennish’s students made admirable efforts to point out the “teacher’s” illogic and deviation from fact, but in the world of my ideals, more of them would have been able to say with absolute certainty that a particular statement was absolutely false, because of something they read recently, citing the publication by name. Accountability is much more easilty achieved with well-organized, quality data.

missing the point comparing

In reply to yes, heard

And you are right it is a pretty dishonest comparison, even one I don’t want to make (as I did state) merely pointing out that it can be done IF YOU ASK FOR IT.

And, by the way, Hitler didn’t win the presidential elections (in fact he did lose them to Von Hindenburg) in 1932 but the parliamental* elections. He became president (f?hrer – leader) after the death of President Von Hindenburg in 1934 (self declared president, that is) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler

How “clean” were those elections in the USA in 2000? Wasn’t there a problem with Florida, was there an inquiry how it did happen, were there measures taken to prevent this in future, did they work (the measures) with the 2004 elections? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_43 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_election_recount

I know it is easy to question afterwards and I do think that there are faire elections in the USA but if we don’t stay critical to those who govern us y’ll never know what can happen.

Rob

* the real power lies with parliament in Germany

Semi-Brief thought….

In reply to high school geography teacher goes nuts

First the teacher is SUPPOSED to be teaching Geography and not lecturing on politics as he sees it. If he wants to do that then I would say he should have formed a club or something along those lines outside of the classroom.

Second I hate to say it but it sounds like he is pushing his thoughts on the kids and not giving them the chance to respond. But that is just one of his “lectures” that was aired.

Third…no wonder kids nowadays can’t find a country outside of the US…or another state!

I am all for your 1st amendment rights but he was way outside of them.

If that was his first offense, then you slap his wrist hard and you tell him do not do it ever again and you do unannounced monitoring of his class to make sure for a certain period of time he understands the ramifications. If he does it again….you either fire him/her or suspend them without pay (depends on the policy).

Those are just my thoughts on the matter.

JAY BENNISH GETS A MAKEOVER

In reply to high school geography teacher goes nuts

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/004715.htm

As I had said before, (Absolutely) that I had heard about this but hadn’t taken the time to confirm.

I HAD asked if anyone else could confirm or deny but it seems no one else was privy to this information, so it is with great pride that I step forward and enlighten the lot of your! 😀

LOL!

In reply to JAY BENNISH GETS A MAKEOVER

I just said it above, but it bears repeating: I didn’t mean to dispute your claim, but to emphasize the importance of citing sources [b]because[/b] of the context & origin of this discussion. Then, I got distracted and forgot to make my point for several days, maybe a week or more.

About Jay’s “makeover”: he looked better with long hair atop his head than that bristly mess all over his face. A full beard can look dignified, especially on 50+ men, but a half inch of stubble just makes Jay look foolish.

Can’t say I blame him

In reply to JAY BENNISH GETS A MAKEOVER

Judging by the comments on this site, I would reckon that he’s running scared that one of you gun-toting neo-cons is gonna blow his Democrat brains out for forcing your young folk into Communism and Satanism.

Hell. Some of you frighten me and I’ve got an ocean betwen us.

:p

That’s impossible, Neil.

In reply to Can’t say I blame him

It’s impossible for “gun-toting neo-cons” to blow out what doesn’t exist – “Democrat brains” do not exist!

how dare you

In reply to That’s impossible, Neil.

beat me to saying that! X-(

You were tardy.

In reply to how dare you

If you want to be first to deliver the punch line, you need to be prompt. Don’t blame me, it isn’t my fault that you’re slow!

😉

Hey, c’mon guys

In reply to That’s impossible, Neil.

don’t fight over it. It was an easy feed line and there’s plenty more where that came from.

Good example

In reply to Hey, c’mon guys

Easy feed lines are the single purpose of leftist types, and unfortunately, I know very well that there are [b]tonnes[/b] of those.

Can’t say I blame him (2)

In reply to JAY BENNISH GETS A MAKEOVER

Maybe he’s seen the errors of his ways and wants to become a clean-cut ex-marine all-American right-wing boy and this is his first step along the road to redemption…

Though I still think that he’s just running scared.

Shave my beard, cut my hair, and Call me normal?

In reply to Can’t say I blame him (2)

He still looks too wild eyed! Grab the 12 guage pump Martha, I’m gonna get me some squirrel!!!

Neil, the greatest danger you have from the legal gun toters is that the legal ones would still protect you while a skin head tries to mug you on the tube while carrying some kind of 9MM fully auto machine pistol…

adding to that point

In reply to Shave my beard, cut my hair, and Call me normal?

that it is indeed the “gun-toting neo-cons” (whatever that means) that ARE the legal gun owners.

If you want violent criminals, look for a democrat…… A fair bet that 90% of violent crime is commited by them!

(that is why the Dems want to allow fellons to vote!)

why

In reply to adding to that point

“(that is why the Dems want to allow fellons to vote!)”

It’s a counter to the fact that Republicans want the dead to be allowed to vote 🙂

You must mean Democrats.

In reply to why

There were enough dead people voting in 1960 to give Kennedy the state of Illinois. Otherwise we would have had a President Nixon in 1960…

That is the real why that he was paranoid about the Democrats and their plans. If not for Daly and his crew, Kennedy might be alive and Nixon might have been in Dallas, any takers if that would have made Democrats happier?

we both know that, but

In reply to You must mean Democrats.

I didn’t want to get picky with him because he DID have his 🙂 showing that he didn’t really believe it either!

Smokes for votes anyone? Crack for registrations anyone?

We don’t need to bring up Democrats trying repeatedly to block the military vote either…..

smokes for votes, jdclyde?

In reply to You must mean Democrats.

Don’t forget about the tobacco lobby.

maybe so, but

In reply to why

the dead won’t be coming after you with a gun! 😀

Amen brother

In reply to adding to that point

97% of the prison vote is Democratic of those waiting on Felony charges…

That info was taken from Florida 2000 exit polls. The whining that all felons should be allowed to vote is coming from Democrats.

Isn’t it amazing that the democrats who have stuffed the ballot boxes for years complained about voter fraud… Having worked for Diebold, I believe the problem with voting machines, for Democrats is that there won’t be voter fraud…

What ever it takes

In reply to Amen brother

when your cause in more nobel, you are justified to do whatever it takes to push your political agenda?

Then quick accuse the other “side” of doing it because the masses are so stupid and lazy, they will believe anything that they hear in a sound bite.

the right to tote a gun was ranked #2

In reply to Amen brother

by the Founders of the United States. If felons do not retain that right, what perversion of logic allows them a say in how the government uses its weapons, or any of its other resources?

that is why

In reply to the right to tote a gun was ranked #2

fellons are NOT legally allowed to vote if I recall correctly? Or is that a state law?

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