high school geography teacher goes nuts

The closest was Mr. Meeth, the world history teacher. He had been in Nam, and was not the most politically correct person in the world.

More than once he went off about walking through the rice pattys killing "gooks". Yeah, he got pretty worked up, but not on politics.

Now COLLEGE, THAT is another story.

Took a 101 writing class, and the "teacher" turned it into liberal 101. He HATED having me in there because I would call him on it evertime he would make some wild claim. I once tried to CLAIM that a collections agency in NY had used the patriot act to take some poor ladies last $100 from her savings account, and she found this out when she went to the store to buy food. Oh, how AWFUL! Too bad it was all BS and I told him flat out it never happened, and to provide a reputable source before EVER trying to make such a stupid statement. Except for one other guy, everyone else just accepteded everything he said because he IS an instructor after all.

He even MADE us watch that BS by M. Moore, "Bowling for Columbine". :D He had to run an errand while we watched it, so I gave everyone a running commentary on everything in the movie that was a lie or distortion (everything) and provided sources to back up everything I said. (he made the mistake of letting us know before hand we were going to watch it so I made a point to watch it and do my research.) B-)

The GOOD thing about him was when he had a project I didn't want to do, I could easily direct the conversation away from the project onto politics and next thing you know class was over. darn, have to drop that project because he didn't explain how to do it! :^O Liberals are so easy!

by bbaltas Mar 8, 2006

I saw an interview with the attorney that represents the attorney, and he described this class as a political geography class. If this is the case the teacher may not have been completely off base with some of his lecture.

I have read some of his lecture on-line, and it looks like this teacher has a lot of facts wrong, and he definitely did not give both sides of any argument in his lecture.

I'd really like to see the class curriculum to see if something like this lecture was in line with the subject.

All you have to do is believe the word of the superintendent of schools, Monte Moses, who said it appears "a breach of district policy" occurred.

Yes, he was completely off-base.

http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/walterwilliams/2006/02/22/187189.html

was on one of the original links I put up.

Like you pointed out though, in clear violation of school policy, he didn't even try to be objective or show more than his distorted views. He also was not looking for a discussion to stimulate thought as a few misguideds here have claimed. He wanted them to sit down, shut up, and let him indoctrinate (brainwash).

by av . Mar 7, 2006

I saw Jay Bennish on the Today show, but I also saw some students protesting his suspension because of the incident. This experience taught them to stand up for what they believe and fight for it. He inadvertently taught them what first amendment rights are all about.

True, he is a geography teacher, but the kids in his class were interested in discussing the state of the union speech that Bush gave and thats what he did. The only reason that this is even an issue is because Jay Bennish compared Bush's way of communicating to Hitler.

That's how Jay Bennish feels about Bush probably, but he should have kept that out of the discussions in class. Sure, he should stick to geography, but if the students bring something up and they're interested, I think it should be discussed even if it is off topic.

Still, these kids got to learn a valuable lesson first-hand.

by maxwell edison Mar 7, 2006

I assure you, what you saw on the Today Show was anything but the full story.

Listen to the tape, all 21 minutes, in its entirety. Better yet, go to the home page of the radio station ( www.850koa.com ), go to the Shows link, go to the Mike Rosen home page (he's the radio guy who was the first to air the tape -- see note below), and listen to the full show tapes that he made available. You'll hear the tape, in its entirety, AND he discussed it with the student who made it public. (And please don't say that you don't have time. If you want to comment on the story, you should at least comment on the story, the whole story, and the true story, not the condensed Today Show version of it.)

Note: The esteemed Professor Walter Williams was actually the first one to break this story in an article he wrote a couple of days before it gained national (or even local) media attention. You should read that article as well.

http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/walterwilliams/2006/03/01/188010.html

Some other observations:

You said, "...but (you) also saw some students protesting his suspension because of the incident."

However, what you did not see were just as many, or possibly even more, students "protesting" his standard operating procedure, supporting the one student's assertion that this was anything but an isolated case. Moreover, he wasn't "suspended", as you suggested, but rather put on leave (paid leave) while the school district investigates the matter.

You also said, "This experience taught them to stand up for what they believe and fight for it."

Well, you can think that if you want, but for most of them, it was merely an excuse to get out of a couple of classes. In fact, the school even cancelled some classes to avoid disruptions that might have occurred. I know teenagers, and in this case, they saw more of an excuse to skip class than a cause.

You said this, "taught them what first amendment rights are all about."

I'm not sure what you mean by that, but teachers in our public school system have no such absolute right to free speech. In fact, to the contrary, policy requires balanced viewpoints in the classroom. Teachers may not, under any circumstances, use the classroom as their personal soapbox.

You said, "...the kids in his class were interested in discussing the state of the union speech that Bush gave and that's what he did."

Not quite. No student asked him to discuss it, nor did any student indicate initial interest. Mr. Bennish took it upon himself to talk about it.

You said, "The only reason that this is even an issue is because Jay Bennish compared Bush's way of communicating to Hitler."

Oh no, that was neither all of it nor the gist of it. The comparison went on and on and on and on -- much more than you saw and heard on the Today how. (Gee, why do people call them a biased news source?) Moreover, the policy of requiring a "balanced viewpoint" would dictate that a comparison to Hitler ALSO be balanced with a comparison to someone like Abraham Lincoln. He didn't do that, nor has he ever done that, if you care to listen to most students who've attended his classes and have also spoken up.

You said, "...but if the students bring something up and they're interested."

Like I said, they did not bring it up; and most of them are interested only to the point of writing what he wanted them to write on a test so they could get their passing grade.

You should really consider educating yourself on an issue before you draw your conclusions.

I do agree with one thing you said, however. You said, "Still, these kids got to learn a valuable lesson first-hand."

Indeed they did. They learned that one person, even a teenager, can make huge waves if he sees a wrong being committed. And if they were really paying attention, they learned that a liberal bias is indeed prevalent in our schools, and that we don't have to take it.

by cactus pete Mar 8, 2006

Since when is the Today Show a news source?

by av . Mar 8, 2006

What I saw on the Today show said that a student initiated the discussion. I can't provide a transcript of the show, but that was what I heard on it and part of what I based my opinion on.

I didn't read the entire transcript either because I already know that he is anti-Bush and extreme left-wing from one sentence. Bush and Hitler? That says it all to me. I don't agree that its appropriate for him to push his political views in a geography class. He did, however, get a reaction from the students, good or bad.

Maybe the students wanted to get out of class, as you say, and I'm sure you're right; but still, they all learned a valuable lesson that will serve them well in life. They learned what it means to take a stand, right or left, and how our world works.

Even though Jay Bennish is out of line with his content, I like his approach to education. It is provocative and not mediocre. Any good teacher I ever had, had the same approach to education, but not the same politics.

Who would first of all, not even read all of my post, nor follow any of the links provided, or even BOTHER to research this before defending Bennish.

Until you BOTHER to listen to the entire tape or read the transcript (I provided both) you are not worthy discussions on your uninformed points.

Liberal does not have to mean uninformed, it just usually does.

Would you really support a public school teachers first amendment right to start teaching your kids about Intellegent design instead of math? How dishonest of you. Some lesson.

When I was in school we often got into lengthy discussions abotu "off subject" topics with teachers. We had a math teacher that was so easy to side track that we would go to class with the intent of gettin ghim talking about something else. He was a very interesting person with some really good opinions on many subjects we wanted to talk about.

Sure we did the rithmetik stuff too, but he was more interesting as a person.

It also helped us to gain respect for him and listen to him/relate to him as he taight us as well.

I don't have any problem with my kids teachers strying from the lesson in order to share real, human thoughts. My kid knew to have his opinion and share it too, he also was a successful student and one whom had th erespect of most of his teachers. It's a learning relationship, not a flippin 'sit and ingest' period.

I dunno, maybe it's just that we breed people and not sheep here.

...is that the man's [b]job[/b] is/was to teach geography.

"No slacking on the job, or you're fired!" was a perfectly reasonable phrase to address to a slacker when the United States was commercially competitive in the world.

We don't want our childrens instructors to become people! God only knows, the next thing, our kids will have opinions, thoughts, questions and will not conform to the mold!

Too much Star Trek in America, you aren't REALLY Borg.

...are the reason I choose private schools, even though I am forced to pay the salaries of people like him and support the schools that allow it.

The school did absolutely nothing until it was made public. In fact, it was taken public because the complaints fell on the deaf ears of school administrators.

by x-marcap Mar 8, 2006

I ran into the same stuff at a private grade school that I was paying 9000 per kid. It was Liberal claptrap all the way...

My wife does English, grammar and Most of the music.
I do French,Math (beyond Algebra, and Sciences).
I lost her salary, but with 4 kids in private school, it was no cheeper for her to homeschool.

Tim

by tonythetiger Mar 8, 2006

of the teachers' union. School BOARDS, however, are not.

The Today Show is a "news source" (see my disclaimer note) since they present themselves as one, and since so many people tune-in to them as a "news source" every morning as part of their usual morning routines getting ready for work.

Many of these same people then go about their entire day never hearing or listening to another "news source", except, perhaps, the five minute news break every half-hour on their favorite rock and roll or country radio station, with the disc jockey's editorializing, of course, and/or never picking up a newspaper (another issue in and of itself) or reputable news magazine, much less get balance in the newspapers and magazines, like reading both the New York Times AND the Washington Times, or reading both Newsweek AND the Weekly Standard. (Man, that sentence was a mouthful!) And heaven forbid they might read a book once in a while, or better yet a book written by a real expert on a subject.

The next "news source" they expose themselves to is their local fluff and puff nightly news (it comes on right after Desperate Housewives or CSI-Anywhere, you know), followed by Jay Leno or David Letterman.

Disclaimer Note: I never did use the word legitimate or accurate with "news source". But people consider it being informed, so in their minds, they are. And then they go to the polls to make an informed vote, or they come into these threads to present their "informed" argument.

Wake me up when the nightmare's over, will you?

by cactus pete Mar 8, 2006

Why do YOU get to sleep through the whole thing?!?! The nightmares of no common sense or relative intelligence in this world are keeping me awake.

Give me whatever you're taking to get through it.

by tonythetiger Mar 8, 2006

if you stop and think about it. Everybody rushing around to get ready for work and the kids off to school. Slip in a half-truth here and there whie they're distracted, and they'll think they thought of it, so it must be true. Almost like subliminal messages mixed in with the department store muzak.

by Member 25348569 Mar 8, 2006

Haven't we all had teachers like this guy? I know I have and on both sides of the political spectrum, too. Maybe we just used to ignore them in my day, pick out anything useful that they had to say and move on. I used to find them - teachers with an agenda - much more stimulating than those who stuck boringly to the syllabus.

The amount of fuss over what this guy had to say is ridiculous.

Lighten up.

Neil :D

p.s. Yes, I would be howling if someone taught my kids ID and creationism. The difference being that there's not a single grain of truth in either of those... :p

is anothers fiction?

Even the stats he gave out were wrong.

Bad enough to be a liberal weenie, but to be a WRONG liberal weenie is just too much to tolerate! ;\

unfavorably to Bush, well, "them's fightin' words," and giving kids the impression that free speech includes the right to incite or advocate treason is not within a teacher's privileges. Whether or not he did advocate treason, I'll decide for myself after listening to the recording, and seeing whether he compared styles of presentation intelligently and accurately, or just declared "He's just like Hitler" without also supporting that statement with relevant facts.

by old guy Mar 8, 2006

when someone makes a statement as you did, ?p.s. Yes, I would be howling if someone taught my kids ID and creationism. The difference being that there's not a single grain of truth in either of those? then, as far as I?m concerned, it discredits anything else they might have to say. I realize that you like to incite and stir the pot, particularly about Christianity, but quite frankly statements like this totally detract any type of respect I might have for your opinions. Statements like this is bogus, obnoxious, and totally closed-minded (close-mind?ed (kl s m n d d, kl z -) or closed-mind?ed (kl zd -)
adj. Intolerant of the beliefs and opinions of others; stubbornly unreceptive to new ideas. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=closed-minded ) Particularly when you state that you are so Free-thinking. It would be hard to see a single grain of truth in Christianity with such a totally closed mind.

Sorry, Neil but I expect better. Prejudice kills respect.

stubbornly unreceptive to bad ideas

Investigate the concept of irony

by jamesrl Mar 8, 2006

I had a high school teacher who taught us to have a BS detector. He wasn't right or left that we could tell. He just taught us to examine the motives behind the message, look at the source material and see how things were being slanted.

Good university profs encouraged debate. I had a prof who was a leader in the world in an area called political economy - basically socialistic/communistic stuff about how capitalism oppresses the poor. But he was a decent guy who encouraged us to express ourselves and I really enjoyed the class. He even gave me pretty decent marks on my essays (barriers to women in the realm of politics).

My first year Poli Sci instructor left University to be an advisor to Ronald Reagan - tells you how old I am. http://www.isppan.waw.pl/Ksiegarnia/new_europe.htm - Teresa Rakoska Harmstone.

James

I don't know if it's just in Canada, but I don't see what's wrong with a teacher who shares healthy thought and teaches people to look at both sides, question what is pushed upon them and express their own views at the same time.

In this case, the teacher sounds a little over zealous and upset at times, but he mellows and explains it's JUST his opinion and he encourags the kids to think and consider all view points. I think the kids were the lame ones here, nobody had much to say at all, except one kid, who sounds close enough to be the recorder/rat himself.

the kid that did the recording. He was also the only one that would stand up to the bullying of this alledged teacher.

You must not have listened to the tape very well or you would CLEARLY have seen that the instructor didn't share "both sides" and didn't want them to question anything. he wanted them to believe his lies.

There was NOTHING encouraging in that tape, about anything but his point.

Just because it is the same distorted view you believe in, doesn't not make this an objective rant, nor showing ANYTHING but one distorted side with most facts incorrect.

by tonythetiger Mar 8, 2006

A teacher said that the school, in having her remove religious posters from her classroom, was violating her right to free speech. The courts disagreed.

I agree. When you're on the employer's time, you have two rights: Either do the job you were hired to do, or not work there anymore.

http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/walterwilliams/2006/02/22/187189.html

Indoctrination of our youth

by Walter E. Williams

by montgomery gator Mar 9, 2006

Walter Williams is one of my favorite political commentators. He also knows a lot about free market economics. If he ran for president, he would have my vote.

by tony hopkinson Mar 8, 2006

If it had been my child I would have punched him out without a second thought.

Not because I think right wing christian capitalist america is the champion of world freedom though, but because I know he would have been misinforming my child, attempting to impose his dogmatic stupidity on my child for his own benefit. That's inexcusable no matter what you are teaching.

So while being a socialist tree hugging nutball and unamerican being irrelevant in my case, I want all children to be taught why I think along those lines why others of differing points of view think their way. Then I want them to reason what's best for them. Anything else you are no better those twats who 'taught' the Hitler Jugend.

I would definitely sack this guy though, mainly because he's dumber than the hole in a cow's arse, therefore unqualified to teach in my opinion.

Teach how you came to a conclusion, don't ram your wild eyed claims down a bunch of kids throughts.

This really DOES happen more than most realize. My bud has this happen to his 14 year old step-son, and the 14 year old gets in trouble if he speaks up because he is being disruptive.

Oz must be way too old to remember that NO, kids do NOT talk in class unless a class discussion is going on. This was NOT a class discussion, and honest imput was not wanted and was actually attacked.

Freedom of speech is for your personal views on your personal time. When you are paid to do a specific job, you have NO rights to deviate if you wish to keep that job.

Let the ACLU step up and show the world again how intentionally deceptive and corrupt they have become. They will fight this, making it a bigger story yet so even MORE parents will be warned and can start arming their kids with recording devices. I will be giving my 13 year olds each one.

by jamesrl Mar 9, 2006

One of my "worst" teachers, same high school as the best one ironically, was an english teacher.

He was trying to teach a class one day and tried to invoke the various periods of "classical" music; Baroque, Classical, Romantic and Modern. He then tried to compare the evolution of english literature. But he messed up his descriptions of the classical music eras badly and as someone who was playing two intruments, singing since 5 and studied music theory since 9, I tried to gently correct him.

His ego was clearly in the way. He was embarassed and got red in the face and raged at me during and after class.

I think he did his students a grave misservice in how he handled the matter. It was a childish way to respond.

The same teacher did have one interesting teaching trick. He forced us to write essays without using the word "it". The task did help us expand our writing skills. Try it sometime :)

James

by tony hopkinson Mar 9, 2006

History I did was 1918 - 1960 ish.

However I must have picked up a political point of view somewhere, I think I became a radical socialist at the prompting of Thatcher.

Having had a bit of experience with the real world now I'm much more pragmatic and I've dropped the radical bit.

Course that is for a brit, you and Mr Edison, would n't want me teaching your kids modern politics or history any more than you would Mr Bennish, or Oz.
LOL

I can well understand why you don't want this halfwit in your classrooms, but be careful, before you know it, the pc mob will be following the current political line and before you can finish the last syllable of the sentence "My kid is f'dUp", your kids will be f'd up.

Paint GWB as a saint or republicans as the only right thinking americans, christianity as the only true religion, americans as the fairest kindest greatest nation on earth, for long enough and they'll believe you. Right up to the point where they discover that this may not be exactly true.

Then everything you've said is potential bollocks, GWB is the devil, republicans are stupid, christianity is evil, and americans are imperialist dictators with no respect for human rights.
There's 'evidence' for all those points of view, all it requires is someone to accept it unthinkingly.

So don't teach kids to accept everything they are told, get them to question everything they are told, otherwise you'll wish you had been more careful about what you wished for.

If you find a teacher who can't meet the challenge posed by a wet behind the ears' adolescent, sack them, they are a waste of space.

by Member 25348569 Mar 8, 2006

in the way that everyone has over-reacted. He was teaching a bunch of 16-year olds for chrissakes! Any half-bright collection of kids that age should have been able to respond the guy's arguments.

Everyone is wittering on about "indictrination", "captive audience" and - of course - "my tax dollars" ad nauseam. Crap.

I've read the transcript and the teacher is a lightweight twit who could easily have been reined in by the class. Some of the teachers comments were true, a good number were not but most of them at least warranted spirited responses from the class. What do we get? One sneaky little sh:t records him and grasses him up to the media.

Hey guys! Get a sense of proportion! The whole thing should have been dealt with by a slap from the Principal. This will now have an effect on all teachers, good and bad, as every sentence will now be recorded and subjected to scrutiny.

...for my reply.

I simply dropped my comment in the pool and went out for a couple of beers and some noodles. I had the much more important task of helping my friends kids with their homework - all good non-contentious subjects like simultaneous equations and microorganisms in wine.

"What you have to do is first add the equations and then subtract them..."

"A little fungus called "yeast" turns sugar into alcohol and a gas called carbon dioxide - that's what makes beer fizzy. Alcohol - well, that's the stuff that makes Daddy and Uncle Neil act stupid when they drink the beer".

GWB was not mentioned. America was not mentioned. Jay Bennish was not mentioned so I didn't have to explain McCarthyism to them.

Phew! That's a relief.

This may not mean a lot to you, but it's of the utmost importance to a lot of people. Why? Because it involves not only their kids, but what it might mean to their kids' future. Moreover, your condescending dismissal of an issue of such importance to so many people might compel me to resurrect my initial impression of you as a "Pompous Englishman". And neither of us wants that, at least I don't think we do. You suggest that people are making a mountain out of the preverbal molehill; but I suggest that it is you who is making a molehill out of a mountain.

If you think this is an isolated case, you are sadly mistaken. This type of thing permeates our educational system, especially at the college level. And for a high school teacher to do it with an audience who is not there by choice is unconscionable. What my kids learn is what they will become. I'm certainly all in favor of helping a kid learn to become a critical thinker, but these are very impressionable people. They have not had the experience to know when they are being fed a dish of crap. And not too many of them go home every night and talk about it with their parents. Moreover, see my previous messages about such parents getting their "news" from Katie Couric on the Today Show.

I'm one of the people, Neil, who believes that President Bush will later be more accurately compared to Abraham Lincoln, not Adolph Hitler. Adolph Hitler was one of the most evil men ever to walk the earth. Compared to President Lincoln, the contrast is obvious. Teachers like Jay Bennish are the reason I spend upwards of $10,000 a year to keep my son away from such nonsense. It's a big deal, Neil. It's a big fucking deal. (I wonder if that will be edited out?)

I'm one of the people, Neil, who believes that capitalism is the best system under which to live. Mr. Bennish, on the other hand, is teaching (in a geography class, no less) that capitalism is destructive. He teaches that capitalism is at odds with humanity. I disagree. He teaches that capitalism is at odds with caring and compassion. Again, I disagree. He teaches that capitalism is at odds with human rights. Go tell that to the North Koreans. And then try to show me his balanced presentation.

You know, Neil. No less than three hours ago, a guy emailed me about some people around here he didn't exactly care for. He mentioned you as one of those people. I defended you, and I even said some very nice things about you. I'm considering recanting my comments. It's a big deal, Neil. It's a really, really big deal.

It's the kind of deal that's costing me ten thousand dollars a year!

One more thing, Neil, before you spout off again on a subject about which you know absolutely nothing. You recently asked for some reading suggestions. Well, how about putting down the fiction for a couple of days, and instead read something real and informative? How about picking up a copy of Inside American Education, by Thomas Sowell? And then get back to us about how we parents are taking our kid's education too seriously.

And all your other comments, Neil, about what the kid did and how it was handled by the school, you have no idea what you're talking about.

By the way, this is happening right in my own backyard, Colorado. And I don't like it.

"And not too many of them go home every night and talk about it with their parents."

Is this not a mroe important issue than what some ranting teacher professes?

As I mentioned before, in school, if MY teacher was preaching, I would call him to task or tell him to FO and leave the room. I was responsibe for my actions and if I didn't like what I was taught, I had teh wherewithal to remove myself from the environment.

If I was preached to at school, I would have gone home and discussed it with my parents over dinner. The fact that parents don't address issues with their children is the fault of the parent, are parents actually supposed to play a role in their child's lives these days or are they supposed ot sit back and let their tax dollars raise their kids?

I think most of what the teacher said was overzealous BS, but he did raise some valid questions kids should be asking themselves when they watch the BS news and propaganda they are fed. Why is some force-fed propaganda aceptable and yet to have an alternate opinion is not?

I know, it's not what YOU believe to be true, but why should MY kids sit there and listen to how righteous it all is?

Point is, it's too bad the teacher was so adamant in his comments, he should have providede more speculation and let the kids question these issues themselves, it would have been very productive and resulted in a positive train of thought.

He DID actually said he appreciated the kids questions and he DID say that he didn't even know if HIS comments were accurate, or did everyone give up before that point? He admitted to this being his OWN opinion and how he was just trying to get the kids to raise questions and actually analyze motives behind the movements. Again, in a more productuve manner, even if he had opened with his disclaimer, it COULD have been extremely productive and a good lesson for them to learn how to analyze and question both sides.

But I am sure you feel that it wasn't what YOU would have said so it must be incorrect and wrong in every way.

Actually, Max, I didn't "spout off". I deliberately took a position in total opposition to most, if not all of the other positions here to invite (incite?) comment. I suppose that I was successful.

It's a common debating tactic and one I use quite often when a debate is going nowhere. As everyone - including me - is debating here by choice I think it's a perfectly reasonable potion for [b]me[/b] to take.

Do I think [b]Bennish[/b] was doing the same? Well, I think he was trying to but not doing it very well and letting his own emotion get the better of him. He wasn't coming over as a good teacher and he'll almost certainly be sacked now and I wonder what sort of teacher will replace him. I'll guarentee that it will be someone who will feed the kids the bare facts according to the "Book of Rules" and I think that the kids will be the worse for it.

Given the fact that Bennish's politics appear to be in total opposition to your own position, is that your major objection to him? Would you feel any happier if his replacement uses the same geography class to compare Bush to Lincoln and extol the virtue of capitalism? I'll compliment you and say that I think not. I think we both reckon that good teachers get the balance right and draw kids out and make them think.

I do, however, think your reaction to this in this thread is coloured by the fact that Bennish's politics are in opposition to yours.

I don't usually do any real anti-Bush stuff but I must admit that I backed off a couple of feet from your "President Bush will later be more accurately compared to Abraham Lincoln" comment. Time will tell as to what history - US history in particular - records on GWB. UK hisatory will not record him as Lincoln, of that I am sure. That;s another thread, though.

your MORE likely to try to do a good job, huh?

I have applied at the local school and will start teaching them that evolution is the great evil lie set out to make you think you are a monkey! Doesn't have to be true because I have a right to free speech. Obviously it doesn't have to be TRUE speech or even intellegent speech.

In MANY high schools, if you WERE to voice opposition to the instructor you are just setting yourself up for a hard time. Maybe a trip to the principle, maybe just having everything you turn in being graded harshly. Teachers have all the power, and because we place way too much importance on a good grand instead of actually learning anything, there isn't a lot that can be done.

Actually, religion is "the great evil lie set out to make you think you are a monkey" by insisting that morality can only be based on myth.

Evolution is a product of the great process logic, subset science, that asserts that man's mind is capable of understanding his environment. Evolution concludes that men are the [b]descendants[/b] of monkeys. Religion turns them [b]into[/b] monkeys.

Rather than say anything about it, like the kids who sat there and listened to this prat , prattle on about his personal beliefs.

If MY teacher had started to preach his personal gospel when I was in school, I would have called him to task, or at least tol dhim to FO and prove his point.

The guy actually had some good points, he also had some pure rants. But nobody did anything about it? Why not? Are kids in US schools taught to just sit and listen without interaction? A few kids mumble replies to his questions, but nobody actually stands up and has a view to share. BAAAAAAA< sounds like a herd of sheep again, a new flock rising through the ranks of the US propaganda filled educational system.

Either way, no matter what happens to the teacher, the kids still listened to it, if you say it's all crap, will they then forget it?

One or two kids actually did raise some counterviews, this COULD have been a VERY healthy and productive discussion for the class if the teacher wasn't so agressively vocal of his personal beliefs.

I think the same lecture is a good idea, at least in a far mroe constructive way and not just as an anti-Bush rant. He has some valid views or at least creates questions that kids should be asking themselves, but not in a manner that is productive at all. It's healthy to actually scrutinize your system of government, it's healthy to question the political moves and motives of your leaders, but it has to be done in a more creatve format.

Teh teacher really makes some good points and raises some valid questions though, no matter how much you wave your flag.

Do you remember how this got into the news in the first place? One of the kids [b]did something about it![/b] He recorded the teacher's tirade, and reported behavior he thought inappropriate, possibly illegal, to the correct authorities. Whay else do you think the students should have done instead?

My whole argument is that the kids sat there and took it. ONE, young man started to speak up and ask VERY good questions, everyone else just mumbled answers to the teachers questions.

Would you not expect YOUR son or daughter to stand up and offer THEIR personal opinion if a teachers was so vocal about his own opinion? What has happened to kids? When I went to school, we didn't just sit like sheep and inhale a stream of knowledge. Classes with such lectures were opportunities for the class to debate, discuss and share personal opinion. We questioned what we were being told, we asked questions in order to view different angles of a given topic.

In this case, the teacher was very adamant and personal in his comments, after his "rant" he even explained to teh class that he may be completely wrong in HIS opinion and that it was ONLY HIS opinion.
This could have been an EXCELLENT excercise for the kids if it was tamed down a bit and if mro of the kids stood up and retoreted with their own questions and concerns, as just one rather interested and defensive student did; instead, it is a secret recording taken to authorities who have acted about as well as most here have.

Instead of encouraging the same thought provoking discussion, except with a more creatively focused and controlled opinion, they are simply knee-jerk reacting to someone who has seemingly strayed from the government authorized propaganda feeding plan.

The fact that ONE kid quietly recorded and submitted the tape is probably the saddest part. Why didn't he speak up instead? Why didn't others start to raise questions or stand for their own opinions or what they have been led to believe?

this "teacher" was not doing his job, period.

And no, kids generally at 14/15 years old are not taught to stand up in the middle of a "lecture" and tell an instructor that he is full of it.

The teaching was not trying to discuss anything, and simply got hostile when any counter points were brought up.

As for "some valid questions", too bad much of the information was inaccurate.

As for flag waving, you just shot any hope of a credible thought, as no one said anything about flag waving, or brought up the fact that America is better than everywhere else. Guess that part is a given, huh? :D

From what I have read, what I suspect to hear is something so inane that intelligent youth knew it would be a waste of breath to "debate" or in any way engage this "teacher". I won't say more until I have listened.

"Something so inane that intelligent youth..."

Priceless save!

We all know that the kids sat there in thier oversize ski jackets, slack jawed, listening to i-Pods, thinking whether to buy Jack Daniels or Bacardi to take to Toby's party and merely mumbling responses when questioned.

Intelligent youth...ONE kid had his say, in an INTELLIGENT classroom, that would have made the other kids speak up and defende their INTELLIGENT opinions themselves. Passive sheep is all I heard.

How long has it beensince YOU saw a high school classroom? There are no school marms these days.

I would have been the one kid arguing with the blowhard at the front of the room. With the added wisdom of experience, I'd probably just listen to my Walkman.

Why DOES the United States drop poison on the crops of farmers who are growing coca to supply a demand FROM THE UNITED STATES?

LEGALIZE IT.

Edit: and Bennish goes on...Yes, he's too strident, he sounds like he's opening for Angela Davis at a radical leftist rally, not teaching a high school class. But, why DON'T we let other countries dump poison on North Carolina's tobacco? Tobacco DOES kill more people than the drugs on which the United States drops poison in other countries?

we import more from africa than they grow in NC.

It's the farm lobby, the fattest of all the swine at the mother pig's teat.

I agree with a lot that Jay Bennish has said in the first 4:30 (I've paused playback) but the bottom line is that he is a paid employee. I have to sneak in a couple of posts to TR during my state-mandated morning and afternoon breaks, when I want to rant, and make my serious points in the evening, because the rest of my hours at work belong to my employer. That's all there is to it. Fire him without benefits.

If he had the credentials to teach the topics he's discussing, Jay Bennish would know that the neo-cons are exactly right about democracy. Statistics deals with tendencies, not absolutes, but the tendency of more democratic nations to not be aggressors in war is dramatic compared to tyrannies. I can hardly stand to listen to any more.

Jay Bennish: "Who is probably the single most violent nation on Planet Earth?"

One kid: (unenthusiastically) "We are."

Another kid: (even less enthusiastic) "Us."

Jay Bennish: "Blah, blah, blah...DO YOU SEE THE DANGEROUS PRECEDENT??? Blah, blah, blah...Oh, sorry, I think I spit on you a little bit."

Bennish's criticism of the role of the United States' and the western nations in the creation of Israel depended crucially on the assumption that having some self-interest in Israel inherently diminishes our moral stature. I contend that Bennish's lack of self-interest in the topics he discusses contributes to his careless inaccuracy.

Ceasing to use money is not an evolutionary step [b]forward[/b].

by montgomery gator Mar 9, 2006

That is why I like the Ferengi, they understand the value of hard currency (gold-plated latinum is their currency of choice). The Ferengi are also known for their "Rules of Acquisition".

The Ferengi seem to be rather Libertarian in their political outlook. They do not like government regulations, and try to find ways to get around them. They do not like wars, because they disrupt trade, but will find ways to profit from a war by selling to both sides.

YOu really enforced that point for me didn't you?! LOL :)

I hate that they are a parody of capitalism instead of a tribute to it. I hate that the use of money is portrayed as a weakness beyond which the "enlightened" Federation types have evolved. I hate that Ferengi lie, cheat and steal for profits, and that the communist Federation dopes are portrayed as "industrious", when [b]the[/b] motivation for industrious behavior, in reality, is personal profit.

this wild eyed about religion, would you still say he is doing just find? No, you would not.

by av . Mar 9, 2006

Theres nothing wrong with that JD, everyone is entitled to their opinion. He went too far with his politics in the classroom, but he did provoke his students to stand up for what they believed and made them think. Our education system needs more of this challenging kind of education. I'm not talking about one man's politics, but a controversial, intense and passionate way of educating kids to get them involved.

We need more teachers like him to inspire students to get involved, stand up and be counted. Good or bad, its something they need to learn in life to survive in this world.

that must be it

We seriously do spend more time guiding children than TEACHING them. We are seemingly much more 'three dimensional' in our ways than Americans.

I mean that we are less reliant on a single set of values and history lessons, than we are in analyzing and openly regarding an issue before condemning it.

It seems in America everything is so cut and dry, very simply applied without further consideration, as many comments here illustrate (if A then B). In Canada, and especially Australia but a little less so in England, people are more laid back and relaxed about life. Sh1t mate, no matter whar you plan, think or do, it's just gonna happen for an unknown number of years and then it's all over, you're dead, done. What's the big deal about something so menial and trivial?

Get over it and stop wasting time with BS.

All it needed in Jay Bennish's class was one JD.

you will hear they DID. The kid that did the recording knew more about the real world than this wacko did.

the only thing you forgot was "thanks god that...." :D

Keeping the pot stired is what keeps it interesting!

Maybe I should have borrowed Maxs title to discribe Jay Bennish. "But your honor, he IS an idiot!" B-)

(I think I owe Max a nickle for copyleft infringement....)

singnifying that I wasn't [b]quite[/b] serious would avoid the flames I've been getting on this one.

Max has beaten the crap out of me a little further down...

[sniff]

I would remind everyone of the saying "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach." but I'm not sure that it's not a British saying. Anyway, although it's a gross simplification and a slur on the teaching profession, there is a grain of truth in it.

is performed a lot by people that just can't compete in a competative work enviornment. I have even read reports that it is the less competative work environment that attracts the higher ratio of female than does the corporate world, but have not decided if that is all bull or not.

Besides, you needed a good beating for a while now! :P I tell the boys I need to give them a spanking for all the things they do that I don't CATCH them doing! (they know I am joking because I don't spank them anymore.....)

by old guy Mar 9, 2006

I didn't consider my response an actual flame (maybe a spark but not a full flame). I know you use a lot of irony. In fact, I even stated in my post I know you like to stir the pot. I guess everything can be over done. After awhile irony gets tiresome. I do think there is enough crap that everyone has to go through every day of their lives that sometimes extra stuff just goes too far sometimes.

Everyone gets a turn at being cranky or in a bad mood, as long as it doesn't stay that way. Right now it's my turn. Tomorrow it may be yours or someone else's.

Among that crap is religious fools who expect their irrational beliefs to be taken seriously.

intelligent => stubbornly unreceptive to bad ideas

the kid that asked the questions WAS the kid doing the recordings.

It was THEN turned over to the school that did NOTHING.

It wasn't until after the school blew it off that it was then turned over to the press.

sounds like he DID do something about it, and he followed a logical order.

I'd have had it out with the teacher, if he was so firm in his convictions. Why even BOTHER with reporting, or recording it. Get the others to speak up and turn the class into a forum for an hour, now THAT'S productive. A lot more productive than listening to how America is the only country on the flat planet we live on and anyone NOT in America is floating in limbo trying to get in the country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Rugby_School_850.jpg

The traditional place is on the Close behind the school. This is where you precious football was first played and where I tried to meet you last time you promised me a whuppin'.

When you've administered the beating - yeah? - we can go for tea at my Mum's.

by maxwell edison Mar 9, 2006

But I'd bet that we'd disagree on the conclusion. Too many people have become complacent with depending on government; or, as you asked, "...are they supposed to sit back and let their tax dollars raise their kids?"

Substitute just about anything else with "raise their kids", and that's the overall problem, in a nutshell, with what's wrong in America -- lack of taking personal responsibility.

My conclusion is to stop doing it, and to do something else, even if it means forcing a person (a parent) to take self responsibility for _________ (fill in the blank with "raise their kids", or anything else.)

You've been on your soapbox over the last few years espousing a continuance of doing the same thing, but only more of it. More government involvement and control over health care is just one example. I say no, but you say yes. How about more government involvement and control over schools? I say no, let's have less of that -- much less. Do you say more? Health care and schools are just two examples. I say no with just about any issue -- less government, but you say more. The difference might be that I say no to any and all government take-over of personal responsibility, whereas you might pick and choose. If so, I'm sonsistent, while you're not. Or do you have no solutions at all? You articulated a problem, with which I agreed, but I offered a solution. What's yours?

Disclaimer: Not all parents fit the picture I've been painting. In fact, most of the parents I see and personally know, or otherwise come into contact with, do indeed take their kids' education seriously. They are involved in not only education, but everything else. Of course, I choose (and pay for) the schools for my son; and I choose the people with whom I associate. Quite frankly, I wouldn't want to be around those who don't, so I'm not. I do see them, however, in the stores and the malls, and by kids running amok in the neighborhoods, and in the news stories, and evidenced by the graffiti all around our cities, and especially in the outcome produced by seeing so many loser adults who cry in their beer about everything under the sun, never taking personal responsibility, and so on.

If it is black, then everything must be black, to remain based on a core value.

I believe that the government has its place, it allows us to not be ripped off by private doctors, it allows us to regulate development of drugs and ensure such research is controlled and regulated, as are our doctors, patient care etc. This retains a standard for ALL, young or old, rich or poor.

When it come sto PERSONAL respnsibility, I feel the same as you in many ways. WE need to be responsible also, but we cannot e expected to be personally responsible for the quality of our medical system, drugs and patient care. The only way to do that is to have the most money to ENSURE the best results.

So the government has it's place, btu it's place is not to hold our children's hands whil ecrossing the street and cover their eyes when they see something they shouldn't.

was in college in a networking class. We were on linux servers and on a quiz he asked where the passwords were kept. of course /etc/passwd.

I got the quiz back and it was marked wrong. (it was a fill in the blank quiz)

I went to him and let him know he accidentally marked one of mine wrong. He said "no, that is the wrong answer. it is /etc/password."

I had to go over to a system to pull it up before he would grudgingly change it. He never did go back and mark it WRONG for the people that put password. @#$^@#$^!@#^%$!!!

Even had an instructor refuse to correct mistakes that he intentionally marked wrong on mine because I was throwing off the curve. That is the class we had to do research and do a presentation, so I did a presentation on WHY YOU SHOULD DRINK. The other students were in shock that I would do it on something that wasn't a "serious" topic, but I got my "A".

I save that report, and have rehashed it and given it in three classes now. :D

by x-marcap Mar 9, 2006

I need a laugh. He may have been my brother...

If he hadn't been a football player he'd have never finished high school...

by x-marcap Mar 9, 2006

Joe McCarthy wasn't as far wrong as the supporters of the FISA court are...

The FISA court was a soviet intelligence triumph via the IPS.

Joe wasn't a bad guy, but he did believe in America First!

by tony hopkinson Mar 9, 2006

if you like government by innuendo, smearing, inform to get ahead manouvres. Very strange as that was a system the soviets who weren't under your bed were making much use of as well. Personally I think he was a complete tosser, but I would I'm one of the people he would have persecuted for holding differing political beliefs.

I've got to admit the soviets did put plenty of moves on you though, mainly because you kept seriously underestimating the stupid commies.

I assume you got the 'but' or 'n't' in the wrong place in the last sentence ?

the farm lobby is NOT why we stop people from poisoning our tobacco crops.......

We don't let people into the US to poison other peoples private property. Heck, we don't even allow US citizens the "right" to vandalize!

if we don't hold people to the facts and allow them to push their personal agendas, I can say whatever I want and it is just ducky!

If we descended from monkeys, why are their still monkeys? :D (monkey boy)

surely you understood the idea behind my post, taken to an extreme to show how dangerous and stupid it would be to allow such things?

jdclyde: "surely you understood the idea behind my post..."

Absolutely: Maybe not. Did the words you chose literally express the idea behind your post?

And don't call me "surely", the name is Absolutely!

by cactus pete Mar 9, 2006

What have we all learned here now?

"Extremists, from any side, are bad."

Really?

So, Saint Nick, who is extremely generous, is "bad"?

Or is the use of "extremism" as pejorative just a sign that those who use it thus have no values strong enough to identify with a [b]strong[/b] belief in anything?

by tony hopkinson Mar 9, 2006

See my bank balance for proof.

Exremism to me isn't having a strong belief it's being unable to contemplate examining it to see if it still holds true.

The instructor did not shre both sides but he did explain that was HIS view, no matter what the kids felt. He also said he didn't know if he was correct or not, it ws opinion.

Opinion (especially alternative opinion)teaches people to consider alternatives to being force fed.

As for encouraging, if a person vehemently ranting about his opinion does NOT encourange a student to question his comments, then your students are as dead in the head as most adults in the US I suppose.

As for me agreeing with his views, I actually don't, I think he was WAY off base on most of his srguments, your point is pure crap.

I would have WLECOMED a teacher who spewed his republican view in front of me while in school, I just hope he was up to the argument because I wouldn't have quietly tried to screw him on the way out.

But which point do you mean? That we watch too much Star Trek?

It could be worse. I could be watching sports instead.

there woul dbe no issue to debate or contest. You woul didly sit by and just snmugly think that you knew better and were right.

Wouldn't th ebetter exerise, as a student, be to contradict and debate the issue? if not, why are you here?

Sports or Star Trek? Hmmm, I am sure I've seen SOME intelligent or thought provoking shows on US networks, actually maybe not.

But if you get cable there ar at least some decent shows to watch, other than BS news, sports or Star Trek.

Regardless of fairness or accuracy of the characterization that the student with the recorder "quietly tried to screw him (the "teacher") on the way out", the primary question is whether the paid employee of the state had the right to say what he did in the state-funded forum of a middle school classroom. I vote no on having debates in public schools [b]until after formal logic and rules of debate are taught in the same schools[/b] which would do much more for the intellects of the youth of America than arguing in the style of today's politicians about the topics chosen by today's politicians.

Just kidding. Maybe it's just because even if I read some SHOUTING I am still free to play it in my head at a reasonable volume in a calm tone, or maybe it's because IT pros really do think more clearly, or at least a few say interesting things, thoughtfully, here on TR. Bottom line, I have more respect for most of the threads (that I choose to enter) than for the shrill likes of Jay Bennish. I think that believing that one's views are valid should motivate a person to try to be calm, in order to be taken seriously by people who don't yet agree, but do have the ability to think.

So, no, I don't mean that I won't ever argue when I hear something stupid being said, but if the speaker is clearly too irate & stupid to ever think, I just don't bother. My impression is that the student with the recorder reached essentially the same conclusion.

Question: was the one student voice that was loudest & clearest the one recording, or another student near the recorder? It sounds like that student, whoever he was, was trying to point out the logical flaws in the most ridiculous parts of the "teacher's" rant, and I have the impression that the student had tried challenging Bennish's assumptions before, and even invalidated them before, but the lies kept coming, day after day, week after week. I'd say the student learned the lesson of democratic citizen activism very well. It's much easier to get a teacher fired for lying, but it's the same principle as impeaching an elected official: any employee of the state is responsible to serve the people, not their personal agenda, and the recording shows that Bennish did not meet that obligation.