How do you locate software?

The PDFMarkup product looks worth investigating. But how did you locate this in the first place?

by jaqui Mar 3, 2008

I open the package manager and read the list for the area I'm looking to fill.
if nothing there suits, I hit freshmeat and search their database. Then pick the apps to download and test after reading the decriptions.

It would have been nice to know freshmeat only lists *nix software. I spent half an hour reading the "How to use" and other FAQs before I learned they don't list Windows software. They do mention why they don't, and that there are plenty of sites listing Windows software. I wish they would have included links to some of them.

Source Forge [ http://sourceforge.net/index.php ] there you'll find stuff for all OS's. -d

http://www.semanticmetadata.net/

since I don't have windows.

freshmeat is focussed on unix / unix-like operating systems, but java is cross platform.
and any web app is also.

I searched for image markup on it and that is where I found the link to the java based app.
[ while I don't enable java myself, I know it's cross platform and would be minimal effort to implement in your windows based environment. ]

when anyone mentions software management tools, they are talking one of the open source operating systems, it's only windows and Mac that lack such tools.

by jaqui Mar 3, 2008

but freshmeat.net gave me the link to this java based image annotation tool that works to the mpeg7 spec:

note: it has a demo via java web start on the site.

I've torn that site apart but can't find any reference to the OS requirements for this app. Any idea what it runs on? No sense running a demo if I can't deploy it.

I'm beginning to think I don't have even the most basic tools or skills necessary for this (or any other) software search.

It would / should be OS independent. It runs on Java, which means you'd probably need a JRE installed to actually use it. You most likely already do anyway. As for the Demo it runs server side useing the program "Java Web Start" as Jaqui said. -d

by apotheon Mar 3, 2008

Like Jaqui, my first step toward locating software for a particular task involves using my software management system's search tools.

How many people do you need to outfit with this software? Depending on how many users you have, it may actually be cheaper to pay someone to hack together the glue code needed to create a GUI image composition and editing application to suit your needs by combining the functionality of smaller, single-purpose tools. In fact, it occurs to me that one extremely cheap solution in particular may be to pay someone to write a set of macros for the GIMP, using its script-fu macro system, since the GIMP has all the functionality you seem to need -- all it lacks is automation of certain common tasks.

Thanks. Lacking software management search tools, that's not an easy option. I could probably boot a box from a Linux CD, learn how to use whatever management tool is in the distro I use, look for apps, see if they are available in Windows versions, and determine if the developer or vendor offers support. The big stumbling block to this is learning specify what I need so I get relevant results from the software search. I'm afraid such an adventure would be like being up to my butt in alligators while forgetting my original mission to drain the swamp.

Right now I've got about 40 people using the outgoing eCopy Desktop app, but that number may change. At the end of the current process we use eCopy's integration with our existing document management system to make the approved ECO accessible to all users. We're also replacing that document management system, and integration of the drawing markup software may not be an required feature. In addition to my users, we have an unknown number at our other facility (less than 50; probably much less).

I'll take a look at the GIMP and see if it will do what we need. I've always thought of it as a photo editing app, and since no one here does that I've never looked at it. I looked at IrfanView but it completely lacks mark-up tools.

I'm not sure about obtaining corporate approval for having an application developed outside. My primary reluctance to propose this is rooted in the same basic problem as buying a package: how do I locate a programmer?

by captbilly1eye Mar 4, 2008

So, even with the Paint PlugIn, IrfanView won't work?

I'll keep looking.

I use OmniPage for similar situations. But I don't think it's much cheaper than eCopy.

I didn't expect you'd be in a position to make any use of my "software management system search tools" idea. I just literally answered your question about how we, the respondents, search for software.

Custom software or custom GIMP macros would probably be a difficult proposition to sell -- not as difficult as switching OSes so you can use the software management system on something like FreeBSD, of course, but probably still a difficult sell. I rather strongly suspect the people you answer to are looking for a ready-made, drop-in retail software solution, not an ROI and cost comparison analysis for software development. On the other hand, I thought it might be worth considering anyway, just on the off-chance it's something that would work out for you. With 40+ users, you're talking about $8k or more to upgrade everyone -- which should be *much* more than enough to get a set of appropriate GIMP macros written.

My understanding of your needs is that all you need is image composition and markup capabilities. Am I wrong? You need to be able to "paste" different document formats together into a single image and apply small, standardized edits to them. A professional image editing application like the GIMP or Photoshop can do that sort of thing easily, and with the superior macro capabilities of the GIMP's Script-Fu, a lot of automation can be added to the application to provide easy standardized markup capabilities so you don't have to free-hand those edits all the time. The problem, then, is getting someone to write the macros for you.

Don't take my word for it, though. Get in touch with members of the GIMP community (maybe in #gimp on irc.freenode.net or #gimp-users on irc.gimp.org) if you want to investigate the GIMP option. They may be able to help you figure out how to choose someone to do the work for you, as well as helping you figure out how well it would suit your needs. Of course, some of them will want everyone they meet to think the GIMP is suitable for everything under the sun (as would some customer service reps at companies selling commercial solutions, but for different reasons), so you'll sometimes have to take what's said with a grain of salt.

So this means a web server is required as a host for the application? Sorry for continuing the idiocy, but I've never set up a web server and don't know how Java apps are installed or made available to users.

I'm used to thinking in terms of client-installed applications. A web-based app means I'd have to coordinate with the webmaster at our other site. No big deal, just something I'll have to keep in mind as I look at software.

the sun jre is the only environment needed, and is available for every os.

So how do I get such an application to work, put the application file on a drive and then open it in a browser?

EDITED - The question above now applies to Java apps in general and not to the suggested application. The suggested apps from Semantic Metadata appear to be geared toward photo management. Perhaps some confusion has been caused by my original use of the word 'annotation' as interchangeable with 'mark up'. I'm going to replace 'annotation' with 'mark up' in all previous posts. Sorry for any confusion I may have caused.

I'll root around there for a while. I'm not sure how to express exactly what I'm looking for, so that's complicating any sort of research. I know what I want the app to do, but I don't know how to express it in terms that generate useful search results.

http://www.techsmith.com/screen-capture.asp

Sorry, my version 4.00 doesn't say anything about a Paint plugin. I didn't know there was one. I'll see what I can find; are we talking about integrating MS Paint?

This might solve the markup problem, but not the need to merge multiple formats (.doc, .pdf, SAP screen prints) into a single 'markup-able' document.

by captbilly1eye Mar 4, 2008

Here's where you can get the scoop.
The plug-ins are listed alphabetically here:
http://www.irfanview.net/plugins.htm . I used the 'Paint' plug-in (and the Insert Text tool) on the JPG below.

You can install all the PlugIns at once.
(dat's what I do). Tell my buddy, Irfan, I said 'Hello' !
.

[b]SAMPLE:[/b]

by captbilly1eye Mar 4, 2008

I use SnagIt from TechSmith to easily and quickly create screen captures as TIFFs.

It has TONS of marking tools available including clipart type inserts.
It's not free but it is affordable.

"My understanding of your needs is that all you need is image composition and markup capabilities. Am I wrong? You need to be able to "paste" different document formats together into a single image and apply small, standardized edits to them."

I don't know what you mean by 'image composition'. Boiled down to the simplest terms, I'm looking for a way to create an Engineering Change Order and move it through an approval process. Currently this uses an application with a 'Print to .TIF' driver, markup tools for the resulting multi-page .TIF, and integration with our e-mail and document management systems. That doesn't mean this is the only way to handle the process.

Incidentally, I get nothing if I enter irc.freenode.net as a URL, and a blank page with only one line of text for irc.gimp.org. I assume this means I'm not doing what I should with these terms. I know less about IRC than I do about locating software. I'm not sure what macros would need to be developed since I'm not doing anything with macros in the current process.

EDITED - And yes, I too suspect my PTBs would prefer a turn-key retail solution. However, I believe they'll consider any viable solution I recommend regardless of the origin. It's the support system that's more critical than the development model.

it's an Internet Relay Chat [ irc ] channel that is specific to the oldest live chat system online.

http://www.mirc.com/ is the best known windows client for irc.

I hope this won't be necessary for this particular project. I'm already having to pick up more new skills in the course of this search than I anticipated.

mIRC is indeed probably the best known IRC client for MS Windows, but it's far from the best. I'd recommend [url=http://www.silverex.org/news/]X-Chat 2[/url] instead.

I keep seeing more and more info comeing out here. (as in SAP, above B-) ) Now you mention an "Engineering" program. (we'll get to the bottom of this mystry yet :D ) What Engineering Program? That alone can make a big difference. (They don't all like each other. :( ) There are programs designed for Engineering programs to talk to each other, with the capabilities to "review / approve". (normal business) -d

Not an Engineering program, an 'Engineering Change Order'. It's the documentation to support changing a manufacturing process. The documentations is submitted by an Engineer, to support a Change, eventually Ordered by upper management; hence the name.

Say we make railroad crossing signals (which we do). Say an assembly line employee see a way we can improve the manufacturing process (which they do all the time, being great employees). By hand the employee fills out a paper form suggesting the improvement. The form goes to the engineer assigned to that product. The engineer:

-Scans the paper form, resulting in a .TIF file. This .TIF becomes the destination file for all documentation required to support the change.
-Completes a Word form that describes the changes necessary to implement the employees suggestion.
-Using a "Print to .TIF" printer driver, adds the Word form to the previous .TIF.
-Using the .TIF driver, adds the bill of materials and routing from SAP to the .TIF. (A 'bill of materials' is basically engineerese for 'parts list'; a 'routing' is the assembly instructions.)
-Uses the .TIF driver to add the CAD drawings of the product to the .TIF. These can be from our drawing library (.PDFs) or directly from the CAD app (too many to name).
-Adds any other required scanned or electronic documents.
-Using mark up tools (arrows, boxes, circles, text boxes, blackout / whiteout markers, etc.), makes changes to the drawings, bills, routings, etc. to indicate what needs to change to implement the suggestion.
-Forwards the marked up .TIF via e-mail to the senior engineer for approval. This is indicated by the Sr. Eng. using the same application and mark up tools to insert an "Approved" .TIf along with a scanned .TIF of a handwritten signature.
-The Sr. Eng. forwards it to the Sr. Eng. of an any other affected product for approval. Eventually the QA Eng. for the product line receives the file, approves it, and sends it to an engineering clerk and the originating engineer.
-All approvals in place, the engineer makes the changes to the bills, routings, etc. He gives it to a drafting technician to change the drawings. The Eng. clerk e-mails the ECO to affected departments, turns the ECO into a .PDF, and puts in our document management system. From there the change is accessible from the factory floor. Manufacturing employees are required to check for new ECOs before they begin each assembly job.

The "Print to .TIF" printer driver and mark-up tools are all in the same application. This is the app I've been asked to replace / eliminate.

a little bit, sort of.

The little bit part: those (too many to mention) CAD programs are the key to the whole process. There are programs that work with /through them that do just what you want. That's a normal manufacturing process. (here anyway, but then here, almost everything is automated that way) What CAD programs are used, and what roles they play is very important.

Now the sort of part: It sounds like what you now have is a Rube Goldberg type of set-up cobbled together over time. And as such you will never find a 'direct' replacement. (If someone where to offer one, run.!.)

It sounds like it time to join the 21st century and do a little up grading. I'll do some more digging and try to find examples (manufacturing models) that might give you some ideas. -d

When we took this process from paper to electronic format, we did it all at one time using a single application. The only pre-existing part was the final destination, the document management library. We used to scan 'dead tree' ECOs and documentation in at the end of the process. Now we scan as little as possible at the beginning of the process and use as much electronically sourced content as possible.

The majority of the engineers who write ECOs do not have CAD software. Looking back I see I misworded the previous post; I've fixed it. The drawing changes are made by a drafting technician, not the originating engineer. The CAD app used is determined by the product depicted in the drawing. Solid Edge is the predominate app, but AutoCAD, Microstation, PCAD, and at least two others are in use.

As regards a direct replacement, I know of at least one: the upgrade to the existing app. The point of this discussion is for me to learn how to find applications when I need to, not to have y'all crawling all over the web doing my work for me. Googling " 'engineering change order' software create approve" yields 17,000 results, many of which don't apply, but it's the only tool in my box. Locating alternatives to this app is only the example at hand. I'm not as interested in what you're finding as how you're finding it.

Thanks.

Nope, I didn't think you asking us to do that at all. I was a little confused by what you were asking however. Which is what you've been trying to say was the problem all along. If I got that right. ?:| The candle light did help that BTW. :D -d

(if you don't mind though, I'll PM you with the what / why of the "cobble together" part)

Like Mozilla did, and Seamonkey does? Makes it easy to use that way. -d

You generally start a Java app the same way you start any other application. The difference is that it needs the Java runtime installed on the machine in order to run, the same way something written in a more traditional interpreted language requires the interpreter to run. When you start the app, part of the process of it starting involves the JRE automatically starting.

Firefox doesn't have a built-in IRC client, unless things have changed while I wasn't looking. You can install [url=http://www.mozilla.org/projects/rt-messaging/chatzilla/][b]Chatzilla[/b][/url], though, which works with Firefox.