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IS EDUCATION WORTH IT?

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by fluxit

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I have heard many people become disgruntled about the effort and money committed to education and having careers with little return to show for the education they got.

Our forefathers felt education was necessary for democracy to take hold and sustain itself. George Washington University was founded for the purpose of promoting democracy and intellectual studies.

However, it seems over the years education was used for a variety political purposes. During the 60's and 70's education was a means to get out of going to war. As a result a large number of degreed workers flourished and the value of education diminished.

In the 80's higher education attempted to restore its value by reducing undergrads and adding the MBA. Yet they flooded the market with MBA's instead. Today the MBA is near worthless. How many people have corporate careers, if their corporation is around or employing them?

Beginning in the 60's to now primary educators have been promoting political agendas and attempting to influence future voters.

Today we see many people who are unhappy with thier work or cannot find jobs. The education they got is not serving them in thier lives and careers. Yet we hear more is needed.

Employers use certs as a toy.If you got one you are over qual'd and they cannot pay you what you are worth. If you don't have the cert, that same employer states they cannot pay you more until you get a cert. Yet the money they offer both candidates is the same? Of course you don't know that because salaries are kept quiet.

Financially speaking, $10,000.00 into education should have a rate of return at a minimum of 18% in 1 year or $11,800.00 recouped in terms of additional pay. Everything after that is benefit. How employers have given that kind of pay raise?

How can education, careers, and returns on education be balanced? More of one is not always better.

28 replies

by uofm

This may sound proverbial... But you stated that folks are dissatisfied with the "little return to show for the education they got". I think thats exactly why they are dissatifsfied. They are looking for/expecting that return (and I'm going to assume you mean $$$ when you say return). I think education is worth it when your doing it to improve your skills/knowledge in something you have a passion for... Thus, how much money you make afterwards is (or should be) irrelevant.

Of course, the irony of all this is that if you have passion in what your doing, you tend to be better at it...thus the financial rewards will come to you regardless of your education.

by vwalton

You are arguing for the benefit of education as an end rather than a means to an end, which I wholeheartedly agree with. But then you mis-use "your" twice (you meant "you're") and mis-spell "that's" (as "thats").

I won't worry about "dissatifsfied" as that's obviously just a typo...

Guess English isn't your particular passion, eh? ;)

by fluxit

Educators often cite to prospective students that an education is an investment in the future. In the educational system, thier own financial classes they teach returns on investments.

I believe the thought process is call Cost Benefit Analysis and goes something like this: If I spend $X on a project such as 'education' then a should expect the return of the monies I invested and then some more. Benefit/cost is greater than one.

I am glad you brought up the phrase 'a passion for'. I have a passion for knowledge and would like to make money on it. However, what school cirriculum lets me pursue my passions? I'll tell you NONE! They make people take certain courses because otherwise no one would. Grade point is really meaningless. And when I took courses because I had a thirst for the knowledge they were not counted toward my cirriculum grade point. Although they did calculate towards my overall.

Currently, society is changing. Most people cycle through 2 or three career fields by time they are 40. I believe its is because Corporate CPA's trim the books at the expense of human capital.

Passion for knowledge is one thing - feeding your family is another.

by uofm

"I have a passion for knowledge and would like to make money on it. However, what school cirriculum lets me pursue my passions? I'll tell you NONE!"

Um.. I would disagree with you there. Unless you went to a school where they "planned" all your classes for you, and told you what your major will be. Now, we all obviously had to take the "core" classes that will make us more "well rounded". But even there, you had some freedom on which classes to take.

I can certainly respect the folks that need to put food on the table. But the bottom line is that it's not the title/credentials that you hold...but the skills and knowledge that those titles/credential represent in you.

and uh..VWalton, feel free to rip this one for grammer and spelling... I don't proofread my IM/message board posts, so I'm sure there's more :-).

by fluxit

we can dimensionalize it anyway we want. In fact, we can even develop non-dimensionalized coefficients of performance for each educational option then compare them.

But when its all said and done, its the school that ask for money. And its the school that publishes and tracks graduates earning potentials. If I recall correctly in the early 80's a study was published that found 9 out of 10 business drivers had a 4 year college degree. That certainly was a shock to the schools who responded decisively at that time to "PUT THE VALUE BACK INTO A DEGREE"

So money is a metric that we have to consider. Certainly, I can pursue knowledge on an emotional basis and the cost of that emotional fulfillment usually is quantified in terms of $$$$.

by lordinfidel

Education is the cornerstone to advancement.

But everyone's path will be different. There are good path's and bad path's.

Having a generalized college degree in by itself will not get you a 6 figure job.

But I bet if you received a phd in nuclear physics from MIT you will not have any problems finding a job.

The more niche and specialized your degree, the better your education was and hence the more prepared you probably are.

But if you go thru one of the meat grinder boot camps/IT Schools, expect not to be worth much.

In essence the harder the road you travel for knowledge the greater the reward.

by fluxit

Think again. I had a PHD in information technology approach me for work. He was willing to work for $42k. I wanted to hire him but my superiors went nuts. They would not even hear of it.

The truth is very few hire anyone smarter than themselves?I find that most people think more of themselves than they are worth and hire people even dumber. This is experience speaking and not bitterness.

Coincidently my Uncle is a Nuclear Engineer and during the Carter Administration the nuclear industry was destroyed. He has not worked in nuclear power since the late 70's.

One of my old bosses has a PHD in Aerospace Engineering and a masters in Physics. It takes him years to find work.

Another boss has been umemployed for over a year. He is 6 sigma certified. He also has his PMI and APICS certs. He has an MBA too.

Education does not mean money or ability.

Look at here in South Florida - John Henry a high School dropout/self made millionaire. Wayne Hyzienga high school educationand started Blockbuster, Alamo, Waste management, Auto Nation ect...

by lordinfidel

Yes that's right, I have a Good Enough Diploma and went to community college for a semester and a half.

I don't know, I am sure that the market is tough and all. But I would think that they smarter you are, with a little marketing the easier of a time you would have finding a job.

I get job offers all of the time, same with my counterpart. We don't go looking for them.

But I also know people who can't find a job in IT to save their life.

I guess when I think of a graduate from MIT, I think of the guy who is going to be picked up by the gov or the pvt sectors equivalent. This is assuming that while getting their phd that they were working on some project.

It also has to do with marketing and where you live. I don't see a big need for astro or nuclear physisyts in bumm fu**, egypt. But let's say near high tech ville or gov/military research center, there is probably a need.

by vwalton

Education is just the starting point. I'm in tech, I have a BA in Economics. Do I use that BA at work? Bah! But I'm glad I have it nonetheless. I'm also glad that I read, and have paid attention in English class, so that I can write an email (or post to a newsgroup) without embarrassing myself with my grammar and spelling.

But more to the point, your economic analysis breaks down because you're only using monetary return to measure the worth of an education. There are intangibles to beconsidered: primarily, do you love what you do, and did education make it possible for you to do it? Or even less tangible: how much do you value being an educated, well-rounded, thinking, informed person?

by fluxit

You can account for emotional and intangibles such as whether or not you like your job and if you education is even applicable. You do this by non-dimensionalizing and/or adding bias by weighting the characteristic. Then averaging across several characterics that have been non-dimensionalized.

I would not say education is bad - I'll leave that to Pink Floyd music "Another Brick in the Wall" which is actually a social comment on the quality of education.

The point is how can one get the biggest bang for his buck?

by when in doubt

What is it with you and spell check/grammar? Everyone is trying to make a point regarding the topic, not rip on each other's grammar. You're like the guy who would rather nit-pick then have sex.

by fluxit

We all have limited financial resources in life. Most people have just enough to get by. So when investing in knowledge, we have to be frugal.

Certainly, there is a shift today from labor of the hands to labors of the mind. Like building a strong back we need to develop strong minds and educate ourselves. We need to become multi-dimensional thinkers sort of like rubbing our tummies and patting the top of our head simultaneously.

Running out and getting certifications and education untilour cirriculum vitaes are 10 pages long is not wise.

How should we balance careers, education, family, etc...?

by fluxit

Many people become successful for many different reasons. Did you know that Federal Express was a college paper first. The instructor gave it a failing grade and remarked that it would never work. Many other companies started the same way.

I believe ambition is a key ingredient for success. Learning how to communicate and manage your EQ are just as important.

Read the following:
1. The Millionaire Mind, Thomas Stanley.
2. The Art of Profitability, Adrian Slywotsky
3. The Richest Man InBabylon, George Clason
4. Working With Emotional Intelligence, Daniel Goleman.

There are many more. I encourage many of you who are unhappy or cannot find work to use your time studying audio books for 1 hour a day. Let someone talk to you aboutvarious things.

Try:

1. Don't Send a Resume, Jeffery Fox.
2. How to become a Rainmaker, Jeffery Fox.

by kmartin

It seems that the books you speak of is for entrepreneurship, not necessarily formal training such as degrees and certs.
It also seems you desire to focus on the "invention of the wheel" instead of find out how to make cash the conventional way...find a job with a generous salary cap. Are you trying to persuade others to be business makers or are you looking for a way to make your career (IT) work for you? I am meaning no disrespect, I am just confused as to what you want out of this discussion.

by wplatt

It seems to me that after about ten years after college graduation, the value of the degree has decayed to near zero. In other words, your skills and experience learned on the job become vastly more important than the particulars of your education.
This is certainly true in my case. My college education is in two fields that are distincly different from my earning field). But I am paid the same, and as capable, as my compatriots who went to a college and graduated with the specific degree in our field.

I have also noticed that the only really valuable (monetarily) undergraduate education is IVY or IVY alternative--you get all sorts of old boy network opportunities this way. But again, it fades to zero with time. My high school classmates that went IVY all got these really dumb, sweetheart jobs through contacts. But the jobs were BORING! (Well, some of them were cool--I'm just a bit jealos...) I know more than one Harvard Law type that is washed up at 55.

But god, college was GREAT! It was an amazing experience--regardless of the specialization, I doubt I ever would have gained the vastness of intellectual exposure without it. Four or more years at college is truly a remarkable and valuable thing--for one's own intellectual development.

Money and obtaining it has more to do with Single-Mindedness of Purpose. Those dropouts that make it big are like that (including Bill Gates). The rest of us tend to like too many different things, and enjoy relaxing at home too much, to make any profit.

Or you need to be lucky and or visionary. And that is cool, but it's not like you can work at it--you have to BE there, be IN it.

Or get close to the money. The accountants always seem to get paid handsomely.So do the sales execs (that actually sell). And teh lawers do even better--because they structure DEALS. The rest of the troops get paid for their time, and that's it.

by fluxit

I believe we are in a time of change. Many experts believe we are approaching a turning point in the Earth?s long term economic trends as soon as 2009 and the United States may be leading. This long term economic event cycles every 80 years and is usually characterized by difficult economic times followed a substantive 40 year boom cycle then a 40 year refinement cycle. Much of the turbulence we may be seeing today is the onset of this cycle.

On the other side, after 2009, a new business architecture will emerge enabled by the logistics infrastructure and electronic interconnectivity. Corporate America will be forced into a major decline and the all too familiar cubical farm will die. I believe there will be a shift in demographics. Much of the population will become self employed facilitated by the new business architecture.

Education will become even more important. However, it will have to adjust as well.

by fluxit

I don't think the debate is against knowledge but rather prudent application of training.

Ignorance will always be a problem.

by maxwell edison

Where in my post did I mention knowledge or training? Moreover, where in your initial question did you mention knowledge or training? I don’t consider education synonymous with either (At best, they are distant cousins), especially in the context that I intended. And, in my short post, I was using the term education in the broader sense.

Genius without education is like silver in the mine.
- Benjamin Franklin

(Benjamin Franklin, by the way, considered a very educated person by most, and whose achievements and contributions would take volumes to outline and illustrate, had only a couple of years of formal education, and was, for the most part, self-educated.)

You can have knowledge and can be trained without being an educated person. And, I don’t intend to imply that just because a person is not educated, does that mean he or she is ignorant person (and visa versa).

Having a well- rounded education will serve one well throughout all aspects life. Being monetarily compensated for that education is immaterial. And, if one focuses only on that aspect, then that person is missing the proverbial boat.

You imply in your initial question that you are looking for a pay-back for the cost of education, while the real pay-back can’t be measured. Moreover, you seem to be focusing on what’s wrong or the problems encountered while seeking that pay-back. If you look for that which is wrong, you’ll find it. If you look for that what is right, you’ll find that as well. If you look for problems to hold you back, you’ll find plenty of them. But if you look instead for the opportunities, you’ll most likely find all that you wish to pursue.

Don’t focus on what you don’t want. Instead, focus on what you do want. After all, regardless of what is you seek, that’s exactly what you’ll find.

Seek and ye shall find

- Matthew (r

by thechas

Education in the US has devolved over the last 40 years.

Our Primary school system (K-12) has become a warehouse for mis-behaving, underdisiplined juvenile delinquints.

The college system is forced to teach far too many students remedial skills that they should have learned in Junior High.

On the flip side, it is nearly impossible to get any job that pays a living wage without some kind of post high school education or training.

One thing has not changed, you still get out of the education system what you put into it.

Degrees have not lost there worth because of an excess of graduates, they have lost there value because of an excess of clueless graduates that choose not to learn anything in school.

You do not need to lookvery hard to find evidence of the problem:
The teacher who was forced to raise the grades of students she flunked for cheating on tests.

The schools being sued because student X got a B when student Y got an A

We need to force society to value the education and knowledge of the individual, and not the letter grade.

Chas

by fluxit

I embarked on a thorough study of the brain and how it works when attempting to solve a information technology issues. What I discovered was fascinating. Anyone is capable of achieving anything.

However, it is true that people have corrupted the education system. Meanwhile, many people simply do not have ambition and hence they do not pursue knowledge.

This is particularly true in countries with fledgling democracies. The collective culture has never place an emphasis on knowledge and therefore it is difficult to to establish democracy simply because the intellectual capital is missing to evaluate issues and knowledgeably vote.

Companies are struggling. On one hand they are attempting to inventory knowledge and on the other hand financial decisions release the knowledge to the market without regard to the cost. The decision makers still think in terms of the labor of the hand and not the head.

by fluxit

Our goal is to become wise. Wisdom is the ability to make quantum leaps in knowledge when only partial information is available. We do this based on the sage application of knowledge and experience.

How we acquire knowledge and experience is up to us and life circumstances.

Traditional education is not teaching us to be out-of-the-box thinkers. Instead, they seem to be gift wrapping a tiny box and handing us the bill. What a great gift!

This was one of my chief complaints about DaleCarnegie training. I went there with an ocean and was stuffed into a large fish tank of stale water. The phony pretentious pretty people were sickening. I abhorred each time I had to say; 'I made the choice', 'Dale Carnegie did so much for me', and that my life was important. I have no esteem issues and Dale Carnegie pissed me off. I am more attentive to principle centered life.

When curious one must evaluate the knowledge sourcing options and determine which avenue is best. Here are a few methods:

1. Self study
2. Online or Home Study courses
3. Certification (vendor, state, industry)
4. 2-3 yr School
5. 4-5 yr School
7. Post Graduate
8. Refresher
9. Corporate Schools

In the end one must ask, what benefit did I gain? And one should attempt to quantify the options. The most valuable tool I ever learned was how to compare options using a simple Excel Spreadsheet.

by jeftecknt

I currently attend an IT school, I have a 4.0 average and Ive never missed a day I will, I actively study hands on ) at least 3 hours a day, I read at least 3 hours a day. I am getting out of school what I am putting into it. When I complete the class I will have my MSCE and my MCDBA. My point is this, I know for a fact that I am putting considerably more effort into my day than the majority of my peers in the class. When they complete the class they will have earned the same certs as I do. I am not saying I am smarter than they are, more that I am exerting myself more to learn all that I can. When we go to get jobs, we will be equals. So the true value of education isnt "How much money can you make" its more "How much knowledge can you gain" You cant put a price on knowledge. A knowledged man is a rich man.

by fluxit

Sure you put a price on knowledge. It cost you money to obtain it, it cost you time, sleep, and compared to other opportunity there was the cost of lost opportunity. It was pretty pricy if you ask me.

by road-dog

Education as a combination of the formal, vocational, and experiential is the means for gathering knowledge, or marketable skills. Marketable skills decide your income in the IT field, subject to market factors.

As for the importance of these, that is largely a philosophical question. Cost of an education is strictly a bottom line issue for those who value the material as important to quality of life. For those who value education as a personal growth tool toward self satisfaction, educationis a path to quality of life.

Even though I am not degreed, I fall into the first category. Education is a means to a financial end, even though I enjoy my career immensely. It's kind of like poker, money is a good way of keeping score!

IT is going through a winnowing of sorts, those who are not tech junkies are finding other things to do that pay the bills because they can make more at something else. I know a couple personally, one selling homes, and the other is painting them.

As for me, I've diversified within the field, becaust I like it.

by admin

the hands. Education without money is not a blackspot but a triumph as the minions go through the meat grinder falling off the conveyor as we see Pink escape, through music, then drugs and finally in clarity. Can he be the next Wayne Hyzienga? We cannot wait for school to find our passion, they will always be playing catch up rather than leading the mind. Did anyone studied now first learn the thing taught at school? Of course not! The labors of the mind must necessarily lead the the hand and the labors by those that think outside the box must lead those that learn inside the box. Does this mean the box then is expanding? Not so! How can the box have size or form when there is an INFINITE universe outside the box? If the the Universe is infinite, then the box by definition exists within infinate space and can only be measured from within the box and not from the infinite space outside! This is ridiculous! It must mean then that the box is ALSO infinite and that school is also infinitein its teachings unless of course you are still inside the box, one of the misfortunate few that can see outside the box but are afraid themselves to jump out! Goodbye!

by fluxit

Stewards of knowledge employ thier mind and bodies to effect thy passions. Dost that be those whom hand over thee keep to something less durable? I suggest not. Those in Babylon whos riches are abundant do so with frugality. Hence ones box is but a small tiding of the entire cache and so to with knowledge.

"The needle and thread come together with such close precision that greater things made"

by vbhonda

I have programming training from some college courses, self-training and one year of professional experience. I have now been unemployed for a year now. I have had two potential employers clearly state that they would have hired me if I had a BS incomputer science.
I have also done three informational interviews in the last two weeks and that is the conclusion of the interviewers. One would have made an exception, if I took ALL of Novell's training and past their certification exams he would offer me a job when work started to pick up.

I do have a BS degree but it is in Psychology. I am now looking at doing a career change and I am encountering a lot of support and excitement from professionals in the field. I suspect I will be working in that field by Summer.

~Mark

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