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  • #2187625

    Is Microsoft at fault


    by jterry ·

    Why do I read about so many poeple who say they are not going to update windows to SP2 or install any Microsoft updates and than want to blame Microsoft when there PC gets corrupted? They are not only making their own PC vulnerable but opening themselves to be a Bot to infect others.

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    • #3257414

      cause their local geek told’em not too!

      by grbeckmeyer ·

      In reply to Is Microsoft at fault

      I’ve seen lots of this too, especially soon after it was released. Most of the time, someone they had talked to that they considered knowledgeable had advised them not to install it! Now I can understand in a business network environment where it could interfere with things like antivirus and remote management, but I’ve never understood the reasoning for delaying the install for a home user.

      • #3237374

        it’s simple

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to cause their local geek told’em not too!

        If installing SP2 will cause irreparable damage to the system, the end-user could lose important data and need a system reinstall. Often, for end-users, system reinstalls are simply not an option.

        In fact, I’d say that end-users are the ones with the really good reason for not installing SP2. A business can always back up data and reinstall the OS on a holiday if need be, in most cases. End-users often can’t.

        • #3256414
          Avatar photo

          And then again who wants to be

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to it’s simple

          A Beta Tester for M$?

          In every business that I deal with I have to first test the patches and Service Packs on similar hardware before even considering rolling it out as they have been known to break far more than they fix.

          My current bug bear with SP2 and all the Volume License stuff that I work with is that for some idiot reason after SP2 has been installed the copy of XP Pro is no longer recognized as a valid version of XP and you are instructed to report this to the M$ Anti Piracy Hotline. This particular copy of XP that I use is a pre SP1 and I’ve had to change the product keys when SP1 became available and again now it’s just driving me nuts.

          But in every business situation I’ve ever encountered there are numerous reasons not to implement things as big as SP2 until it has been fully tested and any updates have been done like Flashing the BIOS on every P4 computer. The number of times that I’ve been called out to get a computer working again after someone has installed SP2 is unbelievable. If they are an existing customer it’s easy as I already know the hardware involved and I can download the latest BIOS before I go out and look like a wizard by just flashing the BIOS and it works again. but one place that I went to recently had installed SP2 to every computer in the place and on the reboot all they got to see was the POST screen then blank. 😀

          Of course I wasn’t told this is what had been done I just got an Emergency phone call saying that none of the computers worked. When I finally worked out what had been done I then needed some way to connect to the Internet to get the BIOS updates so I could get the computers working again. Talk about a Catch 22 position. 😉

          Col ]:)

        • #3236472

          Laptops are a techs best friend!

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to And then again who wants to be

          That is why when I do support I ALWAYS have my laptop with me.

          I can carry drivers and utilities.

          Just about to upgrade from my pIII thinkpad to something newer. Many a time I really could have used a cd burner on the laptop for the drivers and such that get downloaded on-site.

          At least the M$ fixes keep us in business….

        • #3260379


          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Laptops are a techs best friend!

          Feel free to send that P3 Thinkpad to me when you no longer need it. I’m a huge fan of Thinkpads, and could use that one, I’m sure.

        • #3260245
          Avatar photo

          Well I’ve just gone through a “Forced Upgrade”

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Laptops are a techs best friend!

          My old Notebook got a bit squashed by an excavator so I now have a Dual Layer DVD Burner if only I could find Dual Layer DVD in numbers and at a reasonable price. 🙁

          But in the above case while I could use the modem in the Lt to get on line to download the required utilities or whatever I couldn’t use one of their phones for so long as they required them for business after all they had no computers so no e-mail. Eventually I reconfigured the LT to work on their network by spoofing one of the installed computers as it was locked down fairly well and that made things even worse as everyone was trying to steal it to collect their e-mail. But without a LT, USB Sticks and drives I couldn’t do the work I’m paid to do either.

          It is however a real pain when you have to reconfigure it every time you need to log onto a different network or in this case act as a server which it really wasn’t up to the task of doing. But I did get what I needed and then set about fixing up the mess. To me a LT is a tool just like a screwdriver but more important. 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3242678

          Tools or toys?

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Well I’ve just gone through a “Forced Upgrade”

          My bud is a mechanic and I love to compair “tool boxes”. A case of Cd’s and a laptop verses his huge cabenet of snap-on tools (NOT STRAP-ON!).

          Best part of my laptop is I TRADED for it! I am always picking up used equipment when people “upgrade” and want the old crap out or from burned out techs that just want the crap out. Got my hands on a $1200 APS UPS that I traded work for a laptop that had just been laying around. Got that UPS as part of a pile that I paid $100 for, and sold one of the other pieces for $100.

          Love trading up!

          One of these daze I will get brave enough to dump the win2k and load linux on the laptop as well. (after I have a new one! Need to still run the windoze apps I support for now!)

        • #3242659
          Avatar photo

          Well I cheat!

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Tools or toys?

          I carry around 3 LT HDD with me and one is loaded with XP, one with Unix and one with Debian and I just change drives as required it beats the hell out of caring several LT’s around.

          I can get away with a relativity cheap LT and a few other tools that all fit into a bag and the LT carry case less that a single handful there and not overly heavy either. But the screwdrivers that I do carry around with me are those cheap shoddy Snap On things. People try to steal them every chance that they get but so far I’ve managed to hold onto them and even worn the writing off the handles. They can’t be all that good as I’ve only had them for about 15 years it’s shocking. 😀

          Actually I’ve been using Snap On for ever now and my biggest problem with them is holding onto them as everyone tries to steal them I will not even allow my son to use them and I just do all my work with those tools they are really nice to use and will never cause you any problems with tearing skin off your hands like some of the cheap junk that is around. While they are not cheap over here they are certainly the best available now if only I could stop my wife complaining about the amount of money I spend on my tools. 🙁

          I don’t even know what the things I’ve got are actually worth only my accountant knows and I’m not looking a few months ago I needed a 36 mm slim Open end spanner for a job so I got the Snap On guy to come around and got the spanner and a number 2 posidrive screw driver and it only cost me somewhere around $98.00 AU which I thought was good unfortunately the wife was there and began complaining and started asking difficult questions about just what some of the tools cost I brought her a pair of the folding scissors and it kept her quite but I learned my lesson never allow the Snap On guy near my wife as just one socket costs more than a complete set of the cheap junk that she thinks will do the job. 😉

          She brought me a socket set a few years ago insisting on just how much money she had saved me within 6 months I had worn out all of the regular sockets and they needed replacing apparently they do not like being used on air tools so I’m replacing the worm out ones with Snap On ones and she’s none the wiser. 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3242617

          What she doesn’t know

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Tools or toys?

          won’t hurt you.

          I always had a free hand with my tools, computers, golf clubs and guns. As the EX didn’t know anything about them and didn’t know one from the other she never noticed if there was a new one. I would just forget to mention it and it was money I had saved out of my mad money. She spent her money on smokes and I spent mine on toys. I have cool toys now and she has black lungs. How fitting!

          Yeah, I love the snap ons. But as my bud has all the automotive I only have to buy what I use around the house and on computers.

          The right tool just makes all the difference!

          I am just bummed out. I had to spend the money I was saving to get a new Kimber 45 ACP for my competition shooting but that money went to the lawyer instead. Glad I had it on hand though! Soon as the divorce is final I can start saving big time! With the boys only around every other week and the EX not around at all I save a fortune in food alone! Should have my Kimber by next spring. That and my new Caloway driver.

        • #3239281

          or . . .

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Tools or toys?

          If you can’t give up Win2k completely, you could always just set up two system partitions and one FAT32 data partition, then use the two system partitions (probably one NTFS and the other ext3 or XFS or ReiserFS) to set up a dual-boot system.

        • #3239202

          can’t do that

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Tools or toys?

          a second OS would leave me with no room for MP3’s and nudies….

          Just need another laptop or two!

        • #3239157
          Avatar photo

          But it’s much cheaper

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Tools or toys?

          To have several USB Caddies with 2.5 inch drives in them and a lot lighter to carry around as well. 😉

          I’ll admit to being lazy and I know it but I do carry around 2 X 80 GIG HDD’s in caddies and then another 2 HDD’s with different OS’s loaded so it is just a few screws to undo and slip in another drive and I’m up and running with a different OS on the same platform. It really is much easier and a lot lighter to carry around. Personally unless I’m in a secure place I never leave LT’s in a parked car as I’ve had way to many stolen over the years and not to mention the damage that they do to the cars to steal the LT’s. Currently it’s got so bad that the 3 USB ports in the LT are not enough so I just added another 4 via a PCMCIA card. Keep it Simple Stupid as I like to say. 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3236489

          XPSP2 breaks programs

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to it’s simple

          If you look on the advisory on SP2 there is a LONG list of programs that will NOT work if you update.

          Many of them are even Micro$oft products!

          That is a good reason not to update.

          I started with a limited update and tested for a few weeks and only had issues with Symantec, who provided a patch that HAS to be put on if you update to sp2.

        • #3236315

          Am I correct?

          by jkaras ·

          In reply to XPSP2 breaks programs

          But wasnt there a thread not too long ago mentioning an automatic update for SP2 not too long from now. I swore I saw something state that anyone who hasnt updated their XP yet will get it forcably patched. I can only imgine the issues generated if that happens. Do you think this type of policy that Microsoft might implement will have a huge backlash from the professional sector if systems are hosed?

        • #3260410

          Force update was what I understood

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Am I correct?

          This will make some happy, this will drive some away. nothing new here.

          When business apps stop working, people for the first time will wake up and see that M$ may not be the only choice out there and look at the SUSE migration plan that helps ween users off of windoze.

          Some may go to macs, but as there is really less market for macs than for ANYTHING else out there it is usually only the people that are looking for a status symbol to validate themselves that get them.

        • #3242656

          Reply To: Is Microsoft at fault

          by adembo ·

          In reply to it’s simple

          hmmmm, I support over 350 users, and not one has sustained damage because of sp2??? Maybe it was the lack of support given to the computer before the upgrade was done??

        • #3239278

          What, again?

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Reply To: Is Microsoft at fault

          What’s up with all these “I support X users, and never had any problem, so [b]nobody else can have a problem either[/b]!” nonsense? Every time I turn around, every time someone says they had a problem with an SP2 install, some idiot comes up with a story like that.

          It’s asinine. The fact that you didn’t have a problem doesn’t mean the product is perfect. Get over yourself. Your anecdotal evidence doesn’t in any way invalidate anyone else’s anecdotal evidence. Crawl back under your butterfly-logo rock and leave the serious discussion to those of us that don’t ignore facts.

        • #3171121

          Its a priority issue..

          by hectoritnt ·

          In reply to Reply To: Is Microsoft at fault

          I guess you and I are that 1% not having a problem with SP2!. The best I can figure is that we are spending our time testing, preventing and fixing rather than posting. That way our users get the best support possible and nobody has to blame the OS.
          We always read the “anecdotal evidence” of the problems but seldom the solutions. Maybe because they related to the driver that shouldn’t have been there or the hardware that was listed as incompatible but no one knew. Those are not OS issues but people issues. The ones you and I try to avoid.

        • #3171048


          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Its a priority issue..

          I guess you haven’t actually been reading posts on the subject very closely.

        • #3171023

          You have made LARGE assumptions!

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Its a priority issue..

          You need to go back and reread the thread as what has been stated here is nothing like that.

          Also, the “anecdotal evidence” you claim that ther are never solutions. People have posted their problems, and when a solution exists they usually post that.

          You also assume that people with tons of experiance in the IT field that have been experiencing similar problems or strange issues must automatically be at fault…That is poor reasoning.

          Most of the people posting in this thread have TONS of IT experience and know what they are doing and know to RTFM (RTFW(eb)?).

          SP2 is the issue, not wetware….

        • #3171459
          Avatar photo

          Well the only real problem I’ve had with SP2

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Its a priority issue..

          Is the fact that now all my Volume Licenses come up as Pirate Copies of Windows XP Pro. Prior to installing SP2 they where considered as legal and even when SP1 was made available I had to change all the product keys over so I could install SP1. That was perfectly OK as MS told everyone what was happening and just how it could break the OS when applied.

          But with SP2 they didn’t even mention it and did it in the background which allowed SP2 to be installed but then will not comply with MS when you try to download a few items but I suppose eventually will be carried over to the WUS at which time I will again have to ring MS quote the numbers on the center of the CD and then wait a minimum of 10 days to be e-mailed a new product key which will then have to be changed again. All at my cost and at the same time I’m being given the third degree by the MS employees who seem to think that I’m somehow stealing from the company by having the gall to want what I paid for to work properly.

          This has not been a problem with the Volume License packs that I’ve brought from MS with SP1 included but is a very good reason never to consider upgrading until at the very least one SP has been released.

          At some point in time I’ll have to change the product keys over again and I’ll be the one paying for the privilege of using Windows XP and while it is no big deal here as they are under 50 units involved I suppose I’ll be doing another product key change on those 2,500 units as well this time again but unfortunately we do not have an Easter Long Weekend coming up so it will be a slow process.

          It is things like this that I find objectionable with MS and their business practices I paid for the Volume License and it is working out far more expensive than going with all OEM and no problems.

          Just why is it so?

          There is no one but MS to blame for this one as it can not be put down to a Hardware Fault the lack of testing of SP2 before installing a people problem of someone being lazy it is plain and simple nothing but a Software problem that MS has engineered into their product and what makes it worse in this case is that they already have a record of me needing a new product key and they have left it to me to again request a new product key again. I know how I was treated last time and it really is something that I’m not looking forward to going through again.

          Col ]:)

        • #3171856

          Lets try again

          by hectoritnt ·

          In reply to Its a priority issue..

          Ok! Everybody said their peace so let start again. Yes, I read the posting and the original question is “Why do people prefer not to install the SP2 of XP and rather keep their machines vulnerable? And then again Is this MS fault??
          I guess the answer is basically because many of us had been very diligent in telling the world in this and many other forums our horror stories when we tried to do the upgrade but had a problem.
          I have no love for any company. I use both Windows and Linux (Red Hat) and the decision on what tool to use is based on what the end result has to be.
          I found this gem on another forum “When I go to the Windows Update site, SP2 is not listed as an available update. I downloaded SP2 from Microsoft and installed it. When I rebooted my computer, it froze with the Windows XP logo.” This is a post from a user listed as an IT Professional. Are we really going to blame MS for that?
          We as IT Professionals are the only ones that could and should do something to keep our systems secure and updated.
          It wasn’t me who said “Your anecdotal evidence doesn’t in any way invalidate anyone else’s anecdotal evidence”. But I agree; the fact that some of us had issues, whatever the reason was, installing the SP2 doesn’t in any way diminished the fact that others had no issues and are supporting updated systems

        • #3191305

          anecdotal evidence

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Lets try again

          Actually, the quote about one person’s anecdotal evidence not invalidating another’s sounds a bit like something I’d say. The point, of course, would be that if some people had an easy time of it and others did not, it’s not perfect; far from it, it sounds like SP2 is deeply flawed. Having dealt with its problems myself in supporting clients, I know first-hand that it’s deeply flawed.

          Yes, it’s true that in many cases it was the actions of a lone idiot that hosed things up. In many other cases, however, it was the problems with the software that screwed the pooch. The fact that there are idiots in the world doesn’t absolve Microsoft of culpability for pushing a broken OS patch.

    • #3237370

      MS at fault

      by apotheon ·

      In reply to Is Microsoft at fault

      Maybe if SP2 didn’t do things like remove drivers for SATA hard drives and disable half the networking software on some systems when installed people would be more willing to install it. A virus-corrupted system is more useful than one that doesn’t work at all because XP SP2 has decided the drivers for the SATA controller are “uncertified”.

      • #3256452

        I haven’t seen the problem

        by jterry ·

        In reply to MS at fault

        I have installed SP2 on all 158 PC’s at work and on all 5 PC’s at home and I have not had a problem. Maybe the problem with SATA is SATA. Do you think?

        • #3249483

          No the problem is with MS

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to I haven’t seen the problem

          MS created a patch that borked apps, kludged up the registry, and ate drivers.

          I’m not going to be the beta tester for MS. I will not fight with their software to make it work.

          SP2 has a plethoria of issues and MS has already released a gaggle of fixes for it.

        • #3238588
          Avatar photo

          No they are not be right M$ is PERFECT!

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to No the problem is with MS

          I’ve just done a reload on an Acer LT and after installing SP2 I only had to download 145 MEG of patches and fixes now what is wrong with that?

          Col ]:)

        • #3235952

          My mistake!

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to No they are not be right M$ is PERFECT!

          Nothing at all wrong with that it SHOULD be that way 😉

        • #3249426

          I think. Do you?

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to I haven’t seen the problem

          You’ve been very lucky. Some others have not.

          Are you trying to say that SATA, as a technology, sucks? Funny, it seems to work just fine under several other OSes, and actually outperforms previous technologies. It does so on Windows systems, too, when it works.

          I’ve primarily noticed the problem with systems that have separate SATA adapters as riser cards rather than integrated SATA controllers on the motherboard. Perhaps, working solely with a corporate environment and your own computers at home, you have the luxury of not dealing with unpredictable hardware configurations on a regular basis and thus don’t notice when there are problems. If you were really unlucky, your place of work might have standardized on a particular approach to hardware upgrades that would have seen all 158 PCs at your place of business cease working when SP2 was installed, instead of escaping the SP2 guillotine entirely.

          Don’t assume nobody has problems just because you don’t. If you want to know how something like a major OS patch affects people in general, you’d be better off talking to someone like me (doing consulting work for a wide range of clients) rather than someone like you (working in the well-insulated world of orderly, standards-driven network management). I’m the guy that gets called in when someone like you discovers that 141 of the 158 PCs on his network have ceased functioning for some reason he can’t ascertain on his own.

        • #3260461

          SATA Controllers

          by jterry ·

          In reply to I think. Do you?

          Although you had me at a loss because I was unfamiliar with SATA, and therefore did not have an immediate answer, I checked around and found out from one of my co-workers that they just got a new PC with a SATA controller and it came with SP2 installed and he is not having a problem. No I am not familiar with every hardware or software configuration possible, are you? However when I do a little research I usually find out that the blame doesn’t lie with MS.

        • #3260374

          Are you even paying attention?

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to SATA Controllers

          Go back and read again what I said.

          Some configurations have problems. The most common problems with SATA involve SP2 deciding that an SATA controller riser card uses “uncertified” drivers, which basically means any drivers developed by a company prior to the release of SP2, doesn’t have an ongoing business relationship with Microsoft that gives them preferential treatment in hardware support, or hasn’t paid Microsoft some kind of consideration fees for having drivers “certified” by SP2. This is all part of the so-called “security enhancement” scheme in SP2 which, among other “security” measures, disables hardware that doesn’t proactively increase revenue generation for Microsoft in some way.

          This has nothing to do with technology problems, and everything to do with Microsoft marketplace leverage. There is no technical or security reason at all that an end-user shouldn’t be able to use a driver that hasn’t been “certified” by the SP2 developers. In this case, the blame lies with Microsoft.

          Maybe MS should get their money back from you. You’re doing a piss-poor job of defending Microsoft’s FUD. (Yes, that’s meant ironically: I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t pay you to spread FUD without training you better than this.)

        • #3260243
          Avatar photo

          There is a slight difference here

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to SATA Controllers

          That unit came with SP2 pre installed not added after the first install so the SATA controller would have worked as it was installed during the installation.

          But when you upgrade these things after the event it is a totally different story. So back to your research to find the real answers. 😀

          Col ]:)

      • #3249255

        if I remember right

        by jck ·

        In reply to MS at fault

        Microsoft came out with the first GUI-based virus on the market: Windows 95.

        I remember my friend had OS/2 Warp on a machine and went to put Windows 95 on it (2nd partition or something).

        He went to do it…and it automatically overwrote his OS/2 partition for some reason…and without warning.

        Talk about pissed. He almost bought the plane ticket to go shoot Gates.

      • #3181423

        MS is Heavy Handed

        by domerhp ·

        In reply to MS at fault

        To me the main problem lays in the assumption in the part of MS that it knows what is best for the user, thus making you take an all or nothing approach to SP updates. Some people have mosified their systems to run better than MS intended thus not missing most of the options you get with the SP. Additionally the SP “modifies” your fixed to extents you can not guge before instalation.

        • #3181324
          Avatar photo

          Well if you can not read the code

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to MS is Heavy Handed

          How can you expect to know how it will affect your system?

          That is one of my bug bears as I’ve had to fix a lot of problems that M$ has introduced with their patches and we really have no idea of what they are doing to the systems by applying these patches.

          Col ]:)

        • #3180402

          “heavy handed”

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to MS is Heavy Handed

          That’s like saying having all your skin peeled off might be uncomfortable.

        • #3180384


          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to “heavy handed”

          According to the marketing folks I LIKE to have my skin peeled off and it feels good!

        • #3180354

          of course

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Nah…

          Would you like some coarse-grain salt and lemon juice with that?

        • #3180336

          That causes a “version conflict”

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to of course


    • #3256427

      I say install it

      by antuck ·

      In reply to Is Microsoft at fault

      I tell all people to install sp2. There are a lot of security updates that come with it. Now I have seen where installing sp2 on home is worse then with pro. I will generally tell a person with home to make sure they do have a back up of all data. The biggest thing is to make sure the system is clean of virus and spy/ad/mal-ware. The bad thing is usually the home user is the one infected more. As far as there data goes, I always say there are two types of people using a computer, one that backs up and one that will because they have lost data. Bad thing is that it takes some people losing data to relize they have to back up.

      • #3249425

        I say a blanket answer is a bad answer.

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to I say install it

        If someone has an up to date backup and isn’t going to lose significant resources (time, money, whatever) in the process, I certainly won’t recommend just installing SP2 on an already-running system: rather, someone under those circumstances should wipe the system clean, install XP from scratch, then install SP2. Then and only then, the person should reinstall all software and make configuration changes as needed. Restart it a few times when you’re done and use it for a little while before restoring data from backup.

        Anything less risks an unstable system that might cause tremendous problems. I’ve seen SP2 installs on already-used systems screw up the system significantly often enough to never recommend an install of SP2 that doesn’t involve wiping the hard drive and starting over.

    • #3256403
      Avatar photo

      For exactly the same reason that

      by hal 9000 ·

      In reply to Is Microsoft at fault

      They do not want to be among the first to use a new M$ Windows. You currently know exactly what you have what problems you need to look out for and importantly what software will run on the system and how to control things.

      When you rush in to install the latest patch or Service Pack all of that goes out the window and you have to start from scratch again.

      While SP2 has some good new features they still come no where near what the better third party apps do and in business downtime has a measurable cost so unless you can afford the possible costs involved you don’t even consider it.

      For Home users things like Wireless and network printers are not likely to be a problem so if they have a solid backup they are welcome to play to their hearts content and if they are forced to reload what’s it to them after all the vast majority only use their computers as game consoles and they only stand to loose their highest scores on whatever game it is that they are currently playing.

      I’ve seen far too many people who blindly trust M$ get their fingers burnt and after experiencing a total systems failure from what should be a noncritical install I now tread very carefully.

      Col ]:)

      • #3249424

        too true

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to For exactly the same reason that

        Considering that SP2 rewrites a significant percentage of the OS, it’s a more significant change than going from XP Home with no service pack to XP Pro SP1. One simply cannot reasonably trust that, coming from Microsoft.

    • #3232440

      MS is not to blame!

      by comp1systems ·

      In reply to Is Microsoft at fault

      I’ve heard it so many times: “I installed SP2 and now my
      computer doesn’t work any more.” blah blah blah. It’s the
      same old story that Microsoft screwed up their computer.
      Rather than taking a look at compatibility issues that may
      have something to with other programs they are running
      (i.e., SBC Yahoo! DSL software), they find it easier to blame
      Microsoft. Now I do remember reading a long while back,
      an article that said something to the effect that some of MS
      security patches had to be recalled (or something like that)
      because they posed serious threats to PC’s. But they’ve
      long since straightened up their act in that area.

      They need to quit their whining and consider going to the
      source of the problem, not MS, of course. Rumor has it, if
      you don’t have SP1, you can’t do SP2. But I’m new at
      this…so what do I know. But I will still say it’s a
      compatibility issue that does not stem from MS SP2.

      • #3249423

        that’s just funny

        by apotheon ·

        In reply to MS is not to blame!

        With something that is not identified as a new operating system, or even a new operating system version, compatibility issues such as SP2 can raise should not in any way be a problem. The fact that they are says something about Microsoft’s way of doing business. To blame that on the end-user is irresponsible and unfair.

        What evidence do you have to support the notion that Microsoft has “straightened up [its] act” in the area of security patches that posed security threats? SP2 itself poses security threats, including by way of increased remote access to the system (primarily by Microsoft) and by way of inclusion with a firewall that actually increases certain types of vulnerability to malicious activity. Are you just making this up as you go along?

        How can you make claims about whether or not SP2 is a problem when you don’t even know what the requirements for installing it are?

      • #3238574
        Avatar photo

        Stop trying to make me laugh

        by hal 9000 ·

        In reply to MS is not to blame!

        If you really believe that try installing MS Java onto a high end workstation one of the Dual CPU types with inbuilt SCSI and LAN.

        I did and the machine booted up perfectly provided you didn’t want a LAN any SCSI drives or for that matter any external storage media IDE CD/DVD or floppy. But it worked great otherwise.

        Or better still try installing SP2 on a P4 that is over 12 months old as a clean install and see if you can even get past the POST screen without a BIOS Flash.

        Or like a problem that I have right now an ASUS A7S333 AMD 2100, M’Board 512 MEG of RAM and a Nvidia Geforce 440 chip-set video card it falls over about once a day for no reason that is discoverable and currently it only has Windblows on it and a LAN driver to do the patching.

        While I’ve put this on the T Q & A site you can quite obviously answer this just what the hell does this error message mean?

        Check hardware and software is installed properly. Do a windows update

        Tech specs: 0x0000000A (0xce42400, 0x00000002 x 0x00000000, 0x8056ae04).

        Now as it is fully updated and prior to SP2 being installed it worked perfectly just where would you go looking for the fix?

        Col ]:)

        • #3338873

          Go looking at…

          by michaelea ·

          In reply to Stop trying to make me laugh

          Personally, I’d be looking at the NVidia chipset and then the ASUS board.

          I learned long ago to use Intel chips on Intel boards. It might not be the fastest or most ‘tweakable’ but It’s shaved years off my stubble 🙂


        • #3236552
          Avatar photo

          Well what can I say?

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Go looking at…

          I didn’t make the thing I’m only trying to fix it and it is driving me nuts! 😉

          What’s even worse is I’m not getting paid for it either as it belongs to a young girl doing “Work Experience” for me and I did say no problem was toooooo big boy was I wrong! 🙁

          The only good thing is that it is a home computer so I’m not rushed off my feet to fix it and it isn’t as if money is being lost while it is down. But I really have to learn to keep my Big Mouth Shut in future. 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3236452

          Been there

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Well what can I say?

          DOING that.

          I have three systems backlogging at my house that I need to get to. Not getting paid for any of them.

          With the divorce and the following house makeover all the projects got thrown into the basement and told them I would get back on them by next week.

          no good deed goes unpunished after all.

        • #3260373

          ASUS vs. Intel

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Go looking at…

          Intel makes some very good chipsets. So does ASUS, and the nForce chipset from nVidia is a good one as well. On the other hand, Intel also makes some very [b]bad[/b] chipsets.

          Have you dealt with the Intel 815 chipset at all? I recommend you avoid it, if you want to keep your high opinion of Intel chipsets. Really.

          Were you complaining about the Geforce video chipset as well? That’s some of the best video available on the market. Are you saying that we should all just avoid high-end video and get onboad video instead so that we can have Intel chipset video? That’s insane.

        • #3260291

          Drop the Intel Chipset

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Go looking at…

          If you value your sanity never go with intel chipsets AGAIN. I like the ASUS boards and will NEVER use Inhell MOBOs again….arg…die 815 chipset die!

        • #3236419

          You made me laugh

          by jterry ·

          In reply to Stop trying to make me laugh

          If you can’t install Windows Xp and SP2 as a clean install on a P$ machine your problem is not Microsoft.

        • #3260371

          Clearly . . .

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to You made me laugh

          You don’t know jack. Did you even read Col’s post? Did you understand what was being said? I’m going to guess “no”.

        • #3170675

          I apologize

          by jterry ·

          In reply to Stop trying to make me laugh

          apotheon told me that I was disrespectable to you in this discussion. I had to read back through it to find it but I believe he was right. I don’t know what I was thinking at the time but I should have read your comments a little more carefully. I do respect you because in this whole discussion you have been one of the two inputs that I found very intelligent and interesting even if you don’t fully agree with me. Again I’m sorry.

        • #3171992
          Avatar photo

          Don’t worry about it

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to I apologize

          To me it is all water off a ducks back.

          We do not have to agree that is what makes discussions like this interesting and how we all learn. 😀

          Col ]:)

      • #3236116


        by jmgarvin ·

        In reply to MS is not to blame!

        “Rather than taking a look at compatibility issues that may have something to with other programs they are running (i.e., SBC Yahoo! DSL software), they find it easier to blame Microsoft.”

        WTF? Are you high? SP2 BREAKS apps! Why does it break apps? Hell it hosed my install of Office 2k and at my NIC driver…nice. It doesn’t like my laptops TFT-LCD displaying at its native resolution (1600×1200), it says that my “monitor” doesn’t support the resolution (it does).

        SP2 is a nightmare. Unless you have a VERY vanilla setup.

        I’m not going to stop whining until MS FIXES SP2 so that it doesn’t break everything.

        • #3236450

          And what is so wrong with vanilla?

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to HA!

          I like vanilla. I like the ice cream, and I like to cook with it and think it is great!

          why does everyone always give vanilla such a bad wrap? They must be M$ users and have decided to have a vanilla conspiricy! Where is Oliver Stone when you need him?

          Until then, leave my vanilla alone!

        • #3260368

          nobody’s slamming vanilla here

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to And what is so wrong with vanilla?

          Nobody said that SP2 is only easy with a CRAPPY vanilla setup. The reference was just to a “vanilla” setup. Nobody said there was anything wrong with that.

          The more pertinent question is this: What’s wrong with a non-vanilla setup? More to the point: Why is Microsoft’s definition of a vanilla setup so friggin’ limited?

          Of course, I have an answer to that: Microsoft’s definition of a vanilla setup is that which best serves a market dominance strategy for business growth. Considering that market dominance is bad for the end user, that doesn’t much recommend Microsoft’s business practices for me.

        • #3260250


          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to nobody’s slamming vanilla here

          I hate when I have to explain a joke.

          Wasn’t talking setups, I was talking FOOD! Your just WAY too serious.

          sigh, guess I’m not as funny as I think I am……

        • #3260241
          Avatar photo

          Or maybe it could be

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to DRAT!

          That since this is a serious topic and not one of the ones where we can just joke around nobody is looking for a laugh. 😉

          I got it but because a lot of people here are defending M$ to the hilt and others are not quite as nice they are just taking every chance to push their point. 😀

          Maybe a few funny faces would have helped. 🙂

          Col ]:)

        • #3260216

          Nah, that’s not it.

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Or maybe it could be

          He just wasn’t that funny.


        • #3242674

          I DON’T KNOW HOW!!

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Or maybe it could be

          Never took the time to see how to do them.

          Was always too busy being a smartass I guess.

          That is the problem, people are too serious all the time. If IT was supose to be that serious I wouldn’t do it! It is FUN people. We get PAID to play with all the cool toys! How can that be so serious?

          As for the not quite as nice crowd they can lick my sack!

        • #3242672


          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Or maybe it could be

          That hurt man, right to the quick…. (sniff sniff)

        • #3242637
          Avatar photo

          That’s part of the reason I do not do Domestic

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Or maybe it could be

          Computer work.

          After all I can walk into any business and ask who’s F##ked up my computers? and get a straight answer. They all know exactly what I mean but you do that to a domestic and you’ll cop hell for saying it’s your computer. 🙂

          The only domestic work that I do now is for people who work for the business that I work for so they know me and appreciate what I do for them. But domestic users are a different story as they seem to think that the world has stopped turning when they break their home computers with no valuable data on them and even worse no loss in downtime involved they just can not get on line and indulge in their favorite passions like Cyber Sex or Porn or whatever. 😉

          Business want their computers fixed ASAP and understand that it requires time to get them up and running again and are thankful when you bust a gut to get them out of a mess but the Domestic user seems to think that they are paying for the service so you should kill yourself fixing their computer at least a day before you get it. 🙁

          They really can not take a joke at all and I just do not like working for them as you never get the full story and you are always wrong no matter what they have done to the computer. 🙁

          The son of a woman at one of the companies that I work for boasts about his ability to break OS’s and is very vocal about the lousy techs that take so long to repair his computer when he breaks it. Thankfully he doesn’t get to play with the business computers so I’m safe there but people like that scare the hell out of me as they seem to think that they own you and are doing you a favor when they give you a heap of broken bits and expect you to fix it up. This particular person actually showed me a computer he had brought from a place that I’ll not mention and even boasted that it came with no driver CD’s or manuals so it would be an easy install as XP had everything required. Of course the next day he was on the phone to me asking where he could get the drivers from. I was of course expected to know exactly what hardware he had so I could point him in the right direction. 😀

          Needless to say a couple of days latter I got a phone call from his mother asking me to load it up. So I got him to bring it up to me {Why should I go out of my way to help this kid out?} And he eventually showed up and wanted to know when I would have it working as he had already wasted a week trying to load it. I had to pull the thing apart to find out who made what and then download the drivers and then a clean install as he had messed Windows up something terrible. I burnt the drivers to a CD and Ghosted the HDD to a DVD so he could recover the next time he broke the OS. I did get a call a few weeks latter asking me how to use the Ghosted copy to recover the HDD but I think he has now just settled for reloading it from the Windows CD and the driver CD that I gave him as he did mumble something about not realizing just how much work was involved in restoring the Ghosted copy. :p

          Col ]:)

        • #3260354

          Coconut is better

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to And what is so wrong with vanilla?

          Vanilla is fine, but a little limited. I’m bigger on coconut.

          If I want spicy, I move to green chile.

          I do like vanilla been ice cream though 😉

      • #3236460


        by jdclyde ·

        In reply to MS is not to blame!

        Why would anything that is currently being used on XP sp1 not be compatable with SP2?

        Go back to your room young man and think on the errors of your way.

        This is like me blaming you for using your crayons and now they are too short.

        If MS wrote the software and then later on provides you with an update for that software and it crashes your system, who else is to be to blame?

        • #3236406


          by jterry ·

          In reply to COMPATABILITY?

          All right I have to admit that I built all 158 PC’s over a period of time from scratch. Even when we received new PC’s I did not accept the factory install I reformatted and reinstalled from scratch with clean machines. I installed Windows XP and than SP2. I than installed all of the software used at our company. I always go to Windows update and download all updates after SP2 is installed before installing other softweare. I reboot after each installation. I have done the same thing with my home PC’s (5). In answer to one of the commenmts made here my home PC’s are on a wireless network and are networked to a single printer. Maybe I go the extra mile to install everything but it pays off in the long run. I can assure the rest of you that I won’t be the Bot that infects you.

        • #3260380

          If this is so straight forward

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Recap

          If this is so straight forward why is there so much information posted on the Microsoft web site?
          Do you still think this is a non-issue or that it is just the rest of us don’t know what we are doing? Re-evaluate your position. Things worked out for you. Cool. They didn’t for a lot of people. The following are just a FEW of the major problems people have/had with SP2.

          [i]Your computer stops responding when you restart[i/]

          [i]Some programs seem to stop working[/i]

          [i]Programs that are known to experience a loss of functionality[/i]

          [i]”The product key used to install Microsoft Windows may not be valid”[/i]

          [i]You receive an “Access is denied”[/i]

        • #3260264


          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to If this is so straight forward

          There are tons of tech forums FILLED with strange SP2 errors that seem either to be one or two boxes with specific hardware or some wonky app that just won’t run anymore.

          Thanks MS!

        • #3260248

          I was trying to keep it from the MS Alter

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Also…

          As that is the only thing some people here will accept.

          When people here with proven track records say it, it falls on deaf ears.

          If they see that MS has dedicated an entire section on their web site to addressing the many problems arising from SP2 then MAYBE the will accept that maybe Col and apotheon are two dudes that are on top of their game. If they said it, you can bet it is right. Garvin, your dead on, though I am not as formiliar with your postings and experience. Will be keeping an eye out. Like to know who to disregard and who to heed what they say.

        • #3260215


          by apotheon ·

          In reply to I was trying to keep it from the MS Alter

          Thanks for the vote of confidence. I cheat, though: I have the superpower of Being Right. The Internet even says that I’m right:

          . . . all thanks to my superpower.

          But seriously, it’s nice to know someone has noticed that I try to actually ensure I know what I’m talking about in this industry. Heh.

        • #3242673
          Avatar photo

          Well I would never claim to

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to I was trying to keep it from the MS Alter

          Be on top of my game. Maybe I just get all the nasty ones! 😉

          Yesterday it took me 6.5 hours to setup a network connection and a dial up connection on a LT that I reloaded over the week end. 🙁

          Of course the fact that the user had no idea of what their user name or password was didn’t help one little bit so I did have to wait around for their ISP to change the password but the main problem was that the LT had a whole swag a spy ware on it and when I loaded some AV and spy ware removal tools it stopped working well at least slowed down dramatically to slower than a crawl. I of course knew exactly what the problem was and how to achieve a quick fix all I needed to do was insert more RAM which the owner didn’t want to pay for so he got to pay me for 6.5 hours of my time instead of a 512 MEG RAM stick which would have worked out much cheaper. But a 1800 AMD mobile and 256 MEG of RAM with 64 MEG used for video is a recipe for problems which he got in handfuls. 😀

          I’m wondering just how long it will be before I get a phone call asking me to come out and install the RAM. 🙂

          Col ]:)

        • #3242547

          I’m not trying to put you down

          by jterry ·

          In reply to If this is so straight forward

          When I got my first computer it was an Apple II. They decided to drop that line and I got an Apple IIGS. A lot of the programs I had with the Apple II would not work. Than when Apple dropped the IIGS line I decided to go to a PC. My first PC had DOS. I remember standing in line at a computer store when DOS 6.2 came out, thought it was great. When Windows 95 came out a lot of my DOS programs wouldn’t work. The same thing happened with Windows 98 & SE, Windows 2000, and now Windows XP. It’s called progress. The only problem is with technology progress moves pretty quickly. Either you stay in the stone age or you move with the flow.

        • #3239276

          Funny . . .

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to I’m not trying to put you down

          There are other OSes that don’t have that sort of problem.

        • #3239155
          Avatar photo

          It’s a pity you only played with

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to I’m not trying to put you down

          M$ DOS DR DOS was just so much better. You had a lot more switches available and could even XCOPY between different size floppies like you could XCOPY a 720 K disk to a 1.44 MEG when they became more common and then eventually the standard.

          DR DOS just had so much more than M$ DOS could ever hope to have, the best that M$ could come out with was about 5 versions behind DR DOS offerings and they where a similar price as well. The number of times that I typed in command line strings only to see them fail to run was amazing I never fully understood just why so many people liked M$ DOS when there was something so much better available.

          Col ]:)

        • #3181757

          I have one word for you…

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to I’m not trying to put you down


        • #3181643

          I have rather more than a word:

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to I have one word for you…

          “If it ain’t broke, don’t break it.”

        • #3181184


          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to I have one word for you…

          I couldn’t have said it better myself!

        • #3260240
          Avatar photo

          And would you like to explain

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Recap

          How you got the time to do this in a business environment?

          I know if I take a LT away that isn’t being used they are calling me every 5 nanoseconds wanting to know when they’ll have it back and they don’t actually need it. To most people their LT are like a security blanket which they feel naked without. But to pull 158 desktops and reload like you claim is very time consuming and honestly I wish I had the time to waste doing that and more importantly the ability to get the machines for so long off the floor where they are doing the work that they where intended for.

          When SP1 came out we had to change the product keys on 2,500 computers in a building government of course and the only way that we could achieve this was to have 11 of us in over the Easter Break where we changed the product key and installed SP1. But it wasn’t M$ fault that they claimed that that particular copy was a pirate after all they only sold it.

          Yes I can appreciate why it was done and why it was necessary but it was still a pain in the butt to change every computer in the place and what made it even worse was we where called in to do it as we had nothing at all to do with the supply or anything at all with that LAN but we had the ability to do the work in a short time which the System Admin didn’t.

          But even with the place shut down we still could only change the product key and apply SP1 then install any required updates if we had of saved the data nd stripped them out and reinstalled we would most likely still be doing it.

          Col ]:)

        • #3242550

          It wasn’t done overnight

          by jterry ·

          In reply to And would you like to explain

          First of all when I started four years ago most of the PC’s were running Windows 95 with a few Windows 98. There was no schedule for replacement and no standard way to install patches. I implemented a three year replacement schedule by dividing the PC’s into thirds and starting with the oldest PC’s first. Originally I was updating the new ones to Windows 2000 but than switched to Windows XP. It took about 2 1/2 years but they all have Windows XP with SP2 installed. I also run a patch management program to keep all of them up to date. I do 1/4 of them each night Monday through Thursday and use Friday for Weekly reports. If you look at the task and see how big it is you probably won’t start. I come from a different generation, maybe that’s the problem.

        • #3239275

          sounds like a lot of work

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to It wasn’t done overnight

          Thank goodness for cron jobs and shell scripts. My life is somewhat easier than that.

        • #3235779

          In addition

          by jterry ·

          In reply to And would you like to explain

          I should have said also that the company purchased a new PC for each desktop over that period of time according to my three year schedule and I would build a new PC as a replacement before I pulled back the old one. I mapped a drive to their C:\drive and copied all their personal info (My Documents, Favorites, Desktop etc) So they never had to be without a PC.

        • #3235635
          Avatar photo

          That’s how I do things as well

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to In addition

          But I keep a standard Hardware configuration like M’Board and so forth for each year and modify as required for the individual users needs. I keep to the same chip sets on things like Video Cards and the like as well so I don’t have a lot of work to do or more than necessary and then I script updates and system maintenance to occur independent of the users but I’m lazy.

          About the only thing I need to do manually is Flash the BIOS as new ones become available. But even still I would never consider applying anything even different versions of software until they have been tested to make sure that they do not cause unexpected problems. While now days it is easier and there are fewer problems they can and do still happen and unless you are prepared for them I find it a real nightmare to deal with users who want their PC’s up and running again immediately. But no matter how heavily you test there will still be problems that arise with some users who do strange things on their workstations.

          However I took it from your posting that you stripped everything out loaded XP and then the required Service Packs before install the software that is what I couldn’t understand.

          Col ]:)

        • #3254830

          Yes I Did

          by jterry ·

          In reply to That’s how I do things as well

          Strip everything out and start clean. First I loaded Windows XP and than SP2. I also loaded Office XP. Than I went to Windows updates and MS office updates and installed all the patches. After that I installed all the software packages needed by the user. It was a lot of work but now I am enjoying the fruits of that labor. I just hope my company will allow me to keep to a 3 year schedule for replacing PC’s. When I started we had so many problems it wasn’t hard to convince them to spend the bucks. Now that we have everything running smooth I am not so sure they will see the need.

        • #3181493
          Avatar photo

          Well over here it is more like

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to That’s how I do things as well

          A 4 – 5 year plan as the Tax benefits decrease dramatical after this period of time as they get to write off 20% of the computers value on tax each year so after something like 4 -5 years the benefits become so low as to make it uneconomical to keep the things going. But didn’t you have an AV program installed before you downloaded the M$ updates. I made that mistake once and had a mass of infections direct from M$ update page.

          How did you justify doing that to as it must have taken almost forever to reinstall things after wiping the drives? It’s bad enough when you have to reload one computer but to do that to 158 and wanting to is a hell of a lot of work that even according to M$ is unnecessary.

          But at exactly the same time because of the explosion of PC’s there is now the beginnings of talk within the industry to recycle the hardware or risk Government intervention in the form of legislation forcing everyone to build in the cost of recycling at the initial purchase and making the vendor responsible for the recycling of the thing.

          Right at the moment this is a hard one as the only recycling that is being done is selling of the second hand bits for reuse by outside people like “Home Users.” But from a recent Industry Meeting that I attended they are aiming at 100% recycling by 2008 to prevent the bulk of the older PC’s ending up in land fill. Right at the moment they are projecting a $40.00 AU per unit cost to recycle the old things but I honestly can not see it being done so cheaply as they have to setup the infrastructure and plants to do the recycling yet as it is still all up in the air and currently those PC’s that are already out there will not be covered so when they die they will have to pay to dispose of them. Right at the moment its a real mess and I think it’s going to get a lot worse before it starts getting better.

          Col ]:)

        • #3235775

          Who should be Compatable?

          by jterry ·

          In reply to COMPATABILITY?

          I read a lot of complaints about Microsoft not fixing security holes and than complaints about them taking so long to put out a new update. Than when after two years they put out a more secure update the companies that knew what was coming and decided not to update their software to function under that new update are suddenly blameless. Explain that!

        • #3235633
          Avatar photo

          Could it be

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Who should be Compatable?

          That these places have had their fingers burnt previously and while not installing new patches immediately are still in the testing process?

          M$ accepts this as the norm well at least they did at the last Partners Meeting that I attended this year.

          Col ]:)

        • #3235622

          OMFG, you are serious…

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Who should be Compatable?

          1) The reason they come out with some many security updates is because their OS is swiss cheese.
          2) Very few software companies don’t provide security updates.
          3) MS is at fault for breaking their OS with their SPs! They are shooting their own foot. I am moving more and more to Linux because not only can I get my games (WoW, NWN, and CS) and all the apps I need (Dia, Open Office, Firefox, etc)…the only problem I have is with my wireless NIC and WEP.

        • #3254992


          by apotheon ·

          In reply to OMFG, you are serious…

          Are you using ndiswrapper for that? What’s the problem?

          Maybe I should post an introductory bit about setting up a wireless card using ndiswrapper in Linux somewhere. Feel free to hit me up for ideas of where to start looking for relevant information, in the meantime.

        • #3254894

          Just about to jump into linux desktop

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to wireless

          myself. Now that the game room is just about done, the new electronics room is next! Got several computers just waiting to get an OS loaded, and I can see debian and SuSE will both be going in.

          Don’t really have the time for a gentoo or any of the more advanced ones. Still in school and got five classes to go. Also studying up for the cisco exams. Of course there is fixing the rest of the house and lots of golf as it is summer time summer time summer time at last at last at last!

          And with no wife to annoy me, this should be the best summer in over a decade! woo woo!

        • #3181726

          FC3 is going to be better for gaming

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Just about to jump into linux desktop

          FC3 has a little more support in the gaming community. Also you don’t have to deal with NVidia drivers you can just go to and install them (IRRC that will work in Debian too).

          SuSE is kinda wonky (very European) and it is cranky with some hardware.

          Enjoy your summer 😉

        • #3181485


          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to wireless

          The problem lies with the hardware and not ndiswrapper (I’m pretty sure). It is a D-Link DWL-G520, so it has issues anyway 😉 Any ideas…I’m even open to dropping the card. I miss my Orinoco wireless NIC and would like to find something on par with its stability and usability. I only got the DWL-G520 because I wanted to upgrade to 802.11g, but it turned into a mess both in Windows and Linux (the drivers for Windows suck and its proprietary software has a memory leak…wooo).

          I’d like to see a short and sweet tutorial to ndiswrapper as it took me some time to get it (nidiswrapper) configured properly with a craptacular Wifi NIC.

          The frustrating part is that the most Wireless NIC companies won’t distribute drivers for Linux…WTF?

          Anyway, any thoughts?

        • #3181640

          It depends . . .

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Thanks…

          Is it the DWL-G520 or the DWL-G520+? The + reportedly works very well with Linux, but the DWL-G520 (without the plus) is apparently not supported reliably by ndiswrapper. From what I’ve read, this is a problem with the chipset, and not with ndiswrapper. The only references I can find are to a PCI card, though, so if that’s PCMCIA/CardBus, I’m not sure my information applies.

          I’ve never had to get a PCI wireless NIC to work with any Linux system, so I’m afraid I don’t know whether things work differently than they do for setting up for a PC card on a laptop. I do know, though, that a Motorola WN825G purchased at Wal-Mart for about $20 works beautifully with Debian using ndiswrapper and the drivers downloaded from the Motorola site. That’s what I’m using for my laptop right now. It’s 802.11g/b.

          I think that wireless NIC vendors don’t distribute binary drivers for Linux because they figure their binary drivers should work with ndiswrapper (if they bother to think at all), and don’t offer open source drivers or work with the Linux community to develop open source drivers because they’re idiots that don’t realize they’d net greater profits if they didn’t treat the source code for drivers on hardware as trade secrets. They don’t make any money off the drivers, and open source drivers would make their hardware usable by more people who would then be more likely to buy the things, but don’t expect the phobic executives at card vendor corporations to realize that.

          As for making ndiswrapper work with a wireless card, it’s rather easy, in my experience — as long as you’ve got Windows drivers that will work. It involves digging a couple files out of the drivers (an easy operation, generally), placing them somewhere convenient, loading the ndiswrapper, and running an ndiswrapper command to create the driver configuration automagically. Then you’re in business. Now that ndiswrapper binaries are available for installation via apt-get in Debian Testing, it’s absurdly easy to install ndiswrapper itself, too.

          If this spawns any further question, let me know.

        • #3181182

          I always seem to do things the hard way…

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Thanks…

          Thanks! I’m running FC3 and I don’t have the “+” version of the card (which is frustrating). My card has driver issues with the actual driver in Windos, so I tend to think ndiswrapper is doing its best, but I am cranky about it.

          I’ll check out the card you suggested, does it only come in PCMCIA or also PCI?

          I also think you are correct about the powers that be at the various vendors are paranoid (about what I don’t know). Why is open source such a threat?

          Boy that might make a good article on TR…

        • #3180398

          chipset and threats

          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Thanks…

          If I remember correctly, the card I have uses the Broadcom 4306 chipset. I’ll double-check that the next time I use it in the laptop, I guess. I can’t swear to it, but the same procedure should work for any Motorola card that uses that chipset, PCI or PCMCIA/PC Bus. As I’ve said, I haven’t really dealt with wireless cards in desktop systems, so I can’t swear to it.

          A link you might find useful is this one:

          You can probably get the chipset of a PCI wireless NIC at the command line with lspci. I know that at least most cards report their chipsets in lspci output.

          As for why closed source proprietary software vendors consider FLOSS such a threat: I think it’s pretty simple, actually. On one hand, open source development is a startlingly effective software development model which is likely to overtake closed source development models in pretty much every way, generating consistently (as contrasted with “universally”, of course) better software. On the other hand, if the software isn’t proprietary, the proprietary vendors lose their revenue streams based on software as a product.

          I’m of the opinion that, eventually, software as a service can be far more profitable for everyone involved, but people invested in the model of software as a product either don’t see that or are unwilling to take a chance that they’ll end up taking a paycut. Plus, y’know, there’s fear of change.

          In short, it’s very difficult to compete on quality when the competition is peddling better stuff, and it’s even more difficult to compete on price when the competition is free.

        • #3180341
          Avatar photo

          Actually I think it is a bit more Sinister

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Thanks…

          Than that prior to XP and Windows certified drivers most of the hardware makers used to provide drivers for multiple OS’s but the moment that MS Certified drivers started appearing these other OS drivers disappeared.

          Could it be that to maintain M$ certification they must only support the Windows OS? The hardware makers certainly pay M$ enough money for that certification and the smaller companies may be unable to afford to fight M$ on this one.

          Next time you get a XP Certified Device just look at how many OS’s it has drivers for all of the recent ones only come with Windows Drivers and then XP or 2003 being the predominate ones.

          Col ]:)

        • #3254898

          Have you even been paying attention?

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Who should be Compatable?

          When SP2 came out there was a multi-page list of programs that WOULD NOT WORK. Many of the programs were MICROSOFT programs.

          This major fix was just another in a long history of silver bullets that would fix all of the MS security problems. It wasn’t and it hasn’t.

          And as for compatability, if MS had a hard time getting all of their applications to work, how do you expect outside vendors to adapt to the “new” OS?

          Yet another reason for an open-source solution so that all the vendors would know what changes to make so the software will run.

        • #3181561

          I pay attention to what I know

          by jterry ·

          In reply to Have you even been paying attention?

          I have read the same horror stories that you have about SP2. I am only saying that I have not seen the problem first hand. Does that mean they don’t exist, No, but they haven’t affected me. I could jump on the bandwagon and curse out Microsoft. We do have a program that we use that is outdated. It will not work on Win XP, not even in compatability mode. The company that made it was bought up by Adobe. When I called Adobe they said they have no plans to upgrade it. I guess I should blame that on Microsoft, right?

        • #3181554

          software compatability

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to I pay attention to what I know

          If the software works on XP but not after you put SP2 in, then blame MicroSoft.

          If it only worked on 9X/NT then that is the vendor of that package.

          I think that is where some of the discord came from. I am not saying this old DOS program has to run on every OS that comes after it. But if I buy it to run on Windows XP based on advertising that XP was secure and then a year later MicroSoft makes a change that breaks this application then there is something wrong.

          Is this part in agreement?

        • #3181543

          I’ll agree to that

          by jterry ·

          In reply to software compatability

          I curse out Microsoft myself sometimes right along with other companies. I don’t like it though when it sounds like someone is just waiting for Microsoft to put out the next product or fix so they can find fault with it. I’m not saying your like that but maybe thats what i was hearing.

        • #3181341

          I expect ANY product I buy to WORK

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to software compatability

          The main purpose of this discussion was to get people from both camps to leave camp long enough to see what the other has to offer.

          I am running SP2 on all work systems. I should not have had to reformat three of the systems, but I did. It is still better to reformat the three now than to lose them all because of being unpatched. This whole issue is still a MicroSoft problem because it is a DEFECT in their software that has made me go through this process.

          I use MS products for home and work and will continue to use them. The products would be much better if the MS camp wasn’t just blindly following and DEMAND that MS package a quality package. Until the customer base does, why would MS?

          Also was to point out that *nix is a powerful tool that would help many organizations with mission critical applications.

          Use what you want and like what you want, I don’t care. I am not anti-MicroSoft, though I do lean more towards the *nix camp.

          It is just that much of the OS religion is like the natives worshiping the volcano. Hope your not there when it erupts.

        • #3181482

          Apples and Oranges

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to I pay attention to what I know

          If the app didn’t work in XP to begin with, than that is a vendor issue.

          HOWEVER…the problem is that SP2 broke tons of apps that worked in XP previously, that is all MS.

        • #3181464
          Avatar photo

          It wasn’t just apps either

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Apples and Oranges

          There was quite a lot of hardware that didn’t work properly after SP2 was installed as well. The ones that come to mind readily where the wireless cards and there where a lot of Network Printer problems as well.

          It gets very hard to live with something that breaks so many things when all you are supposedly doing is applying a security patch as SP2 was touted by M$. There was a very long discussion thread about SP2 here and while not even close to the longest thread that has been posted here it would have come close to being one of the longest Technical Threads that TR has ever seem. I think it was called something like “SP2 great but it can break things” and it was more a Q & A type thing where everyone was posting problems and others where posting fixes for the posted problems as we worked them out.

          Things like Flashing the BIOS on P4’s where easy but the wireless and network printing issues where a lot harder to cure if they ever did. Most of the problems listed about network printing was not so much that it stopped working but that it slowed things down to a crawl and made it virtually impossible to keep on the desktops for that reason alone.

          Col ]:)

        • #3181756

          Oh yes more than just apps

          by jmgarvin ·

          In reply to Apples and Oranges

          There were (are) problems with SATA, various video cards, NICs, and some cool issues with some mobo chipsets 😉

          WOO! Thanks MS!

        • #3181639


          by apotheon ·

          In reply to Apples and Oranges

          Yeah, the SATA problem I ran into was really interesting.

          XP SP2 removed the “uncertified” driver for the SATA controller [b]dynamically[/b], and the SATA drive was what had the OS on it, so the computer crashed. Restarting, obviously, did not fix this, as Windows would start to load from the drive, using the SATA driver, then got far enough along that the SP2-included functionality that checks for uncertified drivers found it, then it dynamically removed the driver from the OS again. The OS vanishes from under itself, and the system crashes. It’s shiny side down again. Whee.

          Using the Windows XP CD to do a recovery reinstall of the driver changed NOTHING, because (of course) the driver wasn’t actually gone: it was just being ignored by the OS as of partway through boot. The only way to make the driver work again would be to uninstall SP2.

          The OS couldn’t boot far enough to remove SP2 and as a result there was no way to remove SP2 short of overwriting part of the kernel. Since I’m not that insane, I wiped the hard drive and reinstalled from scratch, then cautioned against installing SP2 again. The client listened, this time (he’d installed SP2 on that machine after being advised that he shouldn’t).

          This entire situation was quite suboptimal, but amusing in retrospect. People wonder why I prefer Linux; that really boggles my mind.

        • #3181638


          by apotheon ·

          In reply to I pay attention to what I know

          It’s not progress that killed third-party apps when SP2 was released. It’s irresponsible practices on the part of Microsoft.

          Without any warning that such would happen, with a “mandatory” patch/upgrade, mission-critical applications were rendered entirely inoperable and unrecoverable. That’s like making a cargo van for a shipping company safer by removing the cargo compartment [b]without warning the shipping company in advance[/b]. This is not good business practice.

    • #3236411

      help gudiences

      by hi_santoshp ·

      In reply to Is Microsoft at fault

      hi i am antosh patil
      i want exchange 2003 audio & video prsentation
      how i get this pls my mail id

    • #3171531

      Microsoft is at fault!

      by sudekumd ·

      In reply to Is Microsoft at fault

      Microsoft is totally at fault.. Their product is faulty and poory tested. If a car were made the way Microsoft made Windows it would not sell. Oh wait the Yuego was made like Windows and it lasted what 2 years? Granted once installed it IS the customers responsiblity to keep the product up to date but at the same time Microsoft has a moral responsiblity to assist the user to keep their faulty product up to date as simply and easy for the user as can be done. Microsoft has the personell and the talent and the knowledge on how thier product is supposed to be functioning.. they should NOT be having problems like this.. new exploits are being found nearly daily in their products. Test…Test….and test some more then test again…break it fix it….alpha it … test some more then beta it … throughly tyesting and fixing what is broken BEFORE it is released is the win.

    • #3193194

      Tarred and Feathered

      by mrafrohead ·

      In reply to Is Microsoft at fault

      They should all be tarred and feathered huh???

      They’re the first group of people that will bitch and whine and attack the hacker that created the “mess” they are dealing with. Instead of looking in the mirror to see who the real culprit is.

      Those updates are there for a reason. If you aren’t going ot update those windoze, buy a freakin’ MAC or go to Linux.

      nuff said…


      • #3193180
        Avatar photo

        Actually I have no problem with patching

        by hal 9000 ·

        In reply to Tarred and Feathered

        But I refuse to even consider doing this without first testing the offerings. I would prefer to have my anti intrusion systems working a little harder than not having the computers working at all. 🙂

        Look at this months offerings 10 Patches from MS thankfully all are not for the main products that I use but there will still be a load of testing before deploying these.

        I’ve had my fingers burnt previously by something as simple as a Java plug in trashing an entire OS so I’ll never blindly accept MS promise that it’s the best that can produce at short notice, granted they have got a bit better now as they don’t seem to be recalling patches lately and releasing a new one to fix what the old broke but from my experience when the Patches broke things I had the systems fixed and left un patched by the offending patch long before the fix became available.

        Col ]:)

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