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  • #2249671

    Is Vista Doomed from the Start?


    by atroon ·

    I was discussing this with a friend the other day, and we noticed a pattern in Microsoft’s software. All of it was launched with great hype and fanfare and touted as a ‘good’ product, but the results have been mixed. Going all the way back to 1986:

    DOS 3.3: GOOD
    DOS 4.2: BAD
    DOS 5.0: GOOD
    DOS 6.0: BAD
    DOS 6.22: GOOD
    Windows 3.0: BAD
    Windows 3.1: GOOD
    Windows 95: BAD
    Windows NT/98: GOOD
    Windows ME: BAD
    Windows 2000/XP: GOOD
    Windows Vista: ?

    I have used all these OS’s with the exception of Vista, and these are my experiences. Anyone have similar experiences?

All Comments

  • Author
    • #3220102

      You missed out 2003

      by tony hopkinson ·

      In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

      so it’s got to be good hasn’t it.


      • #3276062

        agree, and more

        by kiltie ·

        In reply to You missed out 2003

        You missed out quite a few DOS versions, and many Windows versions.

        Additionally, what criteria did you use to determine “GOOD” from “BAD” and from what perspective?

        One may be good for games, but bad for office environment or vice versa
        or one may be good from a user point of view, but bad from a techie angle
        and so on….
        you get my point?

        EDIT: typoswe lure

        • #3275693

          Here Here!

          by unhappyuser ·

          In reply to agree, and more

          There were MANY versions of DOS that MS came out with besides what’s shown. Having worked with CP/M, Xenix, Unix, Linux, DOS/Windows and Mac I can say, in my humble opinion of course, that MS products still lag behind the others and are porrly designed (except maybe Exchange). MS has copied SO many features from other software vendors it’s unbelievable.

          Then why has Microsoft done so well you ask? Does anyone remember Beta and VHS? It’s all about marketing. If Bill Gates had not been so good at this (and a BSer too) he’d be a second rate programmer at Motorola.

        • #3274827

          Could not agree more!

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to Here Here!

          C/PM DEC/VAX were the best. Commodore Geos was slow, but reliable.

          Windoze is nearly ubiquitous, and we’re pretty much forced to use it for things like video, etc., but it’s wholly unreliable.

          It is most interesting to see the dismal results issuing from those who have decided to flip to Mac/iMac, and find, as we did, that the mouse acts like an Etch-A-Sketch and the lack of choices and type-able instructions is uselessly limiting on one’s productivity.

          Also, VHS began adopting ? problems, vis a vis: ? usually kept the tape wound around the spinning head “stretch” while rewinding – thus exposing it to stress and stretching itself. Early VHS placed the tape back into the cartridge before doing any FF or RW which saved the tape considerable tension; later versions deployed the “instant-play” “feature”, which ran the tape through all the chutes and ladders and subjected it to extended stress – all in the name of selling more, …

          The “wonderful” thing about these thugs is that they will use their money to gang up against those who produce quality goods so they can force the public to buy their detesable crap with no realy choices. M$ and Macrap do spin their B$ with more quality than their products deliver, … and will continue to do so, … much like the “Big-Three Automakers” of yesteryear, … until the Orient makes the necessary changes and drives them out of business with real choices. It’s just that I feel too old to wait for the next generation what’ll work.

        • #3275253

          Crack up

          by whocares78 ·

          In reply to Could not agree more!

          Whats this got to do with anything. we are in no way forced to use it, “and we’re pretty much forced to use it for things like video, etc., but it’s wholly unreliable” how in hell did you come up with tis bbrilliant piece of thinking. hello each OS has a video player of some sort that will play all formats. what has VHS and beta got to do with anything. so what high quality OS would you use and well why havent you bagged linux yet

        • #3275240

          Well, as to VHS<>?…

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to Crack up

          That was in response to the previous submission by:
          Job Role: Networking / LAN Administration
          Location: Graniteville, VT
          Member since: 01/26/2001

          As to force: I work at a business that uses computers and I’m forced to use Mac, iMac, and various M$ crap, so if I want to work nearby, yes, I’m forced to use it.

          At home, as you can see from my entries scattered throughout this discourse (it’s my only submissions in this forum since joining), I began with Apple, but bought an Osborn for my first personal/business use. Previous to that, I had employed two Frieden Just-O-Writers for word processing, paper tape and all. My first DOS was C/PM, although Apple had something they called DOS, but it was horrible, like a rack of dominos, if one bit got bumped, and entire disk could be corrupted.
          I traveled around the country writing research papers for clients on their machines as well as on my own, so I had the plethora of Operating Systems, Trash-DOS, Adam, Sinclair, TI, the gamut. Some of those clients had 8086’s and 8088’s, but their systems were so slow with M$ that I found it much easier to type in WordStar on the Osborn and modem it to the M$ in ASCII – even at 110 baud it was quicker than waiting for M$-DOS to boot and try to open WordPerfect and try to figure the different F-strokes for underline, bold, etc..
          Finally a friend(?) gave me a Sharp PC-7000, a “lunch-box” portable with a blue LCD pop-out display. This came with DOS 2.11, PC Tools 2.11, WordPerfect 3, so I used it on occasion, but preferred to program SuperCalc and dBASE II 2.3b in C/PM and null-modem it into other systems (using a piece of gum wrapper foil to jump the 2-3 pin connectors).

          Because M$ would not release a new version unless and until it interferred with Lotus and other “competitors”, I was negative about them ab initio – still am.

          I am forced to use their crap because when I was buying computers, they came with M$ bundle in the box. I wanted to use video production, and I already know Mac is not for me. The mouse is like an Etch-A-Sketch, with a sling-shot response; I know, I must use them at work still, so I am not going to use a painfully inferior system to do something Pinnacle and Premier say they can do on M$. It is ubuquitous, and it is in control. If you don’t like the term “force”, you must deliberately ignore history because force is what M$ produces more than anything else.
          I have ?-tested for Ashton-Tate/Borlund International, so I think I can claim some knowledge and experience with other “power-users”, and I know force when I encounter it – daily.
          As to “tis bbrilliant piece of thinking. hello each OS has a video player of some sort that will play all formats”, I, … oddly, don’t have a complaint; MediaPlayer is a very usefull piece for viewing MPG(1&2), AVI, MP3, and such. Version 10 is easy to use, but does not play in “all formats”; I know because I have it reject many things I try to open, even .avi, so I guess you just don’t have the experience to back up your statement.
          The reliability factor is what I have described – perhaps in too much detail already elsewhere, but I cannot use older devices in XP – I paid full price for them less than 5? years ago, and there is no excuse for M$ not to support them except that they want to be the be-all-and-end-all of everything, so they close out all perceived competition – again. Arrogant, bullyish behavior, but monopolists are like that – read history over and over.

          There is ample evidence brought forth in other comments on this very forum to show that O/S-2 was better than anything M$ has produced yet – or is realistically expected to produce. Their stuff is already described by others who have at least as much experience as I, as bloated with startup times which are ridiculous. They are fulfilling the definition of tyranny as described in that wonderful paper, The Declaration Of Independence, “but, when a long train of abuses evinces …” read it for yourself and consider WGA and all the other debacles.

          In short, M$ is not out to compete, they are out to destroy and conquer. They have broken laws and used thug tactics internationally to accomplish their goal. They are a joke among real programmers of the past, but those programmers realize that, for now, they are forced to deal with M$ until something, a real choice comes around. Many have switch to Unix<> for everything they can; some have seldom dealt with M$, but there aren’t that many quality professionals out there who are happy with M$. Too often they must “say the right things” to avoid offending clients who choose not to inform themselves about M$ and just want results (see the article about the Bureaucrats above – I didn’t write it), but they – down deep – resent the company and its tactics and crummy problems and persistance in continuing the legacy that has brought the power of computing to its knees in favor of bsods and maintainence. The old-timers know what quality and production were. It’s a shame the younger set may never know.
          This year I’m paying professionals to see if I can “migrate” to Suse for everything, photography, musical scoring, video, publications, but I’m going to be faced with a learning curve, because the programs I must use at work are not going to migrate with me.
          End Of Line (MCP)

          P.S. Sorry to the rest of you. I have appreciated all the old-timey comments – brought back wonderful memories.

        • #3274993

          You Just Don’t Get It

          by jrs_mcp ·

          In reply to Well, as to VHS<>?…

          This isn’t about you!
          This isn?t about the good old days when you used paper and pencils by candlelight.
          This is about the new world with electricity, and fiber optics, and mass communications.
          Quit harping about the past and grow up!

          Sure Microsoft has been accused of behaving badly; no one disagree with that point; but has anybody produced something better on such a scale? No.

          The reason there are vulnerabilities in Office and Windows OS is because of the hackers, not the programmers. There are problems with all Operating Systems and all applications. If the hackers spent as much time looking at Linux, Mac or whatever, the way they spend their time looking at Windows, they could find just a many problems and vulnerabilities.

          The issue is that the majority of the world uses Windows; and from a hacker?s standpoint – if you were trying to disrupt the world and trying to create chaos would you try to topple the king or the mayor.

          The real problem is that the hackers spend their time trying to break things instead of fix things ? that?s because they?re lazy. It?s much easier to destroy something that it is to make it better. What a waste of brain power.

          No one produces a product that was meant to be crap least of all Microsoft. ?You play to win.? ? Herman Edwards. The object of any business is to make money; and that is all MS is doing ? ethics aside. If you don?t like it don?t buy it. It?s easy to complain without having any answers ? do you have the answer? Until something better comes along guess what ? the world will keep buying it. If you don?t like it create your own app.

          Microsoft has dedicated a lot of capital and resources to produce products that will help the average user as well as businesses – not old farts like you. If the world wanted a command line interface everyone would look like you; but they don?t. You are a minority ? in fact you?re almost non existent when you look at the number. At some point you become divisible by infinity.

          I am not saying that MS has the answer; in fact in 10 years I don?t believe MS will be the dominant desktop OS; but they will still produce applications that help us in ways you can?t imagine ? they are forward thinking, are you?

          This is a new millennium – from this point forward. Try to make this a better place instead tearing down what someone better than you thought up.

        • #3274954

          jrs_mcp….just don’t get it?

          by maldain ·

          In reply to Well, as to VHS<>?…

          Hmmm, while the command line has it’s place…when you do start then run I bet cmd is the default so you’re not too far off the command line yourself. If you think that’s all the ‘NIX OS’s are is a command line interface it’s you that’s in the dark but not lighting candles. The first thing would be the X windows display manager has only been around since dos 3.3 and has improved steadly with each passing year. Additionally, there isn’t a program you can run under windows that doesn’t have counter part in the ‘NIX world that either works as well or is superior to the Microsoft offering and guess what the people that wrote those ‘NIX programs don’t feel the need to rummage through your personal property every thirtieth of a second to see if there’s not something else they can gouge you for. The fact is that Microsoft has behaved like a bully and put their resources into calling you and treating you like a criminal.

        • #3276400

          Forced ot Choice

          by cherokee_tribute ·

          In reply to Well, as to VHS<>?…

          Speaking of being forced to use a particular OS, I am attending University of Phoenix online. I’m taking IT Professional snd my homework has to be done in Microsoft Power Point, Microsoft Excel and Microsoft Word. My classes are downlaoed to Microsoft Outlook Express. I can go to class online, but their email system stinks, so my “choice” is OE. I don’t know UNIX as well as I would like, but for my purposes I think it is the way I will go after school.
          The unfortunate thing of all this is that Microsoft has made it so that web pages ALL seem to be compatible with MS, even though some can be viewed properly with Mozilla (which I like) and iRider (which I also like, but ALL sites can be viewed in IE.
          I don’t post very often, in fact rarely, but my idea is become familiar with all OS’s and be ready to use the ones you have no choice with, because sometimes there isn’t any good choice except quit your job or get everyone fired at Microsoft, including Bill and staring over as a competitor not a manipulator and dictator.

        • #3276393

          MS Vulnerabilities and Forced Use – web site compatibility

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Well, as to VHS<>?…

          1. The reason so many hackers attack MS, is because they KNOW how to write code, and they get upset about how the MS marketing liars say how secure and safe it is, when it isn’t. So they set out to prove it isn’t.

          Most MS software isn’t secure and has a lot of poor coding in it simply because MS puts too many features in it that should be separate applications. They could include these on the CD to be loaded after the OS, but they choose to install them direct into the OS. They also code in lots of special doorways to allow their other software easier access to the OS. These doorways are open to use by anyone else. The vast majority of hackers don’t do anything special in attacking Windows, they just use the same code that MS uses to access these doorways to allow them in and then send it other coded instructions.

          The majority of attacks that work on Windows don’t work on other systems as the other OSs don’t have these open doorways to give them free access.

          The real problem is poor coding, as a result of bad management decisions and directions, that leave the system vulnerable.

          MS have produced good OSs in the past, then they started adding all the crap features into the OS instead of as application.

          2. The reason so many web sites show better on Windows than other browsers is nothing to do with how MSIE is written, it’s because the web site designers create them using MS software or software designed specifically for Windows, and thus the web sites come out cultivated for Windows. In the past I’ve used MS FrontPage to create a web site that looked great in Netscape Navigator but crap in MSIE, simply because I used html code and colours that favoured Netscape over MSIE. For the last year or so, I’ve been using FireFox and every web page I look at in FF, shows the same way as in MSIE, with two exceptions.

          In both those cases I went to web sites that caused a client trouble, in MSIE accessing the web site resulted in trojans being automatically loaded to the system, in FF the browser detected the trojans and stopped loading the site, thus protecting the system.


          In the early days, MS offered good software that was well coded, for that time, and did it’s job as well, or better than, others. When they switched to Win 95 there was a change in management direction, and the way they coded software. Since then, things have gotten worse, the MS focus now is very predatory and marketing with no focus on coding quality.

        • #2486016

          There is help for you yet !

          by jackie40d1 ·

          In reply to Well, as to VHS<>?…

          Go to look for commercial distros link over on left hand side click on it
          There is a O/S called Xandros Desktop version 3.0 get it ! then to and get their software add it to your new O/S and your runining Windows stuff inside Linux and so much more stable and looks so much like Windows your customers will never know the difference . .
          All for under $150.00 and no more patch Tuesday or fixes for patches or patched fixes and on till when ever h-ll frezzes over !
          just me

        • #3274620

          Wow! I’ve never heard that before!

          by jgaskell ·

          In reply to Here Here!

          I think I’m in a time warp back to 1993.

        • #3276327

          well there you are …

          by helpusobiwan ·

          In reply to Wow! I’ve never heard that before!

          JG … time to get your head out of the sandbox, eh? Got that Windows 3.11 to Windows XP Pro rollout plan done yet? Well, scrap it. Vista’s here to screw up your day … but on the bright side all your users will be tickled pink with new 4GHZ 2GB computers and 21″ LCD screens (it takes to use Vista)! 😉

        • #3276603

          with new 4GHZ 2GB computers and 21″ LCD screens (it takes to use Vista)! ;-

          by dumbterminal ·

          In reply to well there you are …

          I don’t believe that is true

        • #3274124

          The Old Beta/VHS argument strikes again.

          by cayble ·

          In reply to Here Here!

          Its a crappy argument. At least Beta video tapes worked as easily as VHS tapes. Linux is still hobbled by its constant need to use command lines and inability to play games and seamlesly plug and play hardware as easily as Windows. Windows isnt perfect, but for the average user today it makes Linux look primative and for the nerds.

          P.S. I have used Linux Suse for some period of time in the past and I thought it was pretty good. I am not a Linux hater.

        • #3274099

          That must have been sometime ago. I’ve been trying Linux

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to The Old Beta/VHS argument strikes again.

          for over 18 months now, and not had to use a command line except to run things I need to run as a command line in Windows, like pings. You don’t need command lines for normal usage of Fedora Core 4, Fedora Core 5, Ubuntu, or SimplyMEPIS. You can use command lines if you want, but that’s the same with Windows.

          As for games. Want to run games specifically designed for windows, get Cedega, Crossover, or WINE. I’ve found Cedega will run many of my old Win 98 games that won’t run in Win XP.

          Several months back, I switched to SimplyMEPIS Linux as I was fed up of constantly rebuilding my system due to M$ Windows crashing it because WGA was screwing it up something bad.

          Linux is now easier and quicker to load than Windows, more stable, and just as easy to use – often easier to use.

          Most modern Linux installs will detect all your hardware and load proper drivers, something that doesn’t happen with Windows. I don’t have to get extra drivers for the video card, the sound card, the NIC, or the Modem – they’re all part of the Linux install, they’re found and work properly at once. With Windows they won’t work until after special drivers are loaded after the install – even then, I sometimes had to reload them after Windows had ‘fixed’ them – MS doesn’t like you using anything but USA based drivers.

        • #3274090
          Avatar photo

          Or possibly on a server

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to That must have been sometime ago. I’ve been trying Linux

          Without a GUI installed as that eats up too much performance that is better used elsewhere.

          I notice that this particular poster didn’t actually look at any of the applications that come included with every form of Linux that you pay extra for in Windows either and worse still take even longer to install after you have spent up to 60 minutes installing Windows. You can then start on the device drivers that are required and the software so that you can actually use the computer to do something more than collect E-Mail browse Porn Sites and get infected with Virus and Spy Ware.

          But I suppose Media Player consists of a real Medial Player that you can use to view all those WAV files that you’ve downloaded from your favourite Porn Site right? 😀

          And Notepad is a Real Word Processor without a spell checker. :p


        • #3274064

          Hey, HAL, if you’re writing HTML then Notepad is the best MS

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Or possibly on a server

          word processor to do it in, as MS Word will quadruple the size of the file with useless garbage, just like all the MS developed software. I think they must have stolen Notepad off someone, it’s just to well written.

        • #3274038
          Avatar photo

          Good point DE

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Or possibly on a server

          But on the other side I’ve seen a LAN sold to a company with only Windows XP Home loaded and they where told that they had a complete package with everything that was required.

          Seems that the sales person had decided that Notepad was a Word Processor and was selling it as such. I only realised this when I was asked to find out why the spell checker wasn’t working.

          They had also setup the LAN and pulled all the wire but not actually setup the LAN and had showed them how to send a file to a different workstation by E-Mail. It was at least making money for the ISP I suppose but it was hardly a secure or realistic setup. But then again with 25 computers I suppose that it didn’t matter as they couldn’t setup a proper Share or anything else the software was just so far below the standard required that it wasn’t funny.

          Actually I’m extremely lazy and don’t write any HTML as I have things like Dreamweaver to do it for me. What can I say it works and I didn’t pay for it so those are 2 very good reasons to use it. 😀


        • #2486020

          There is a real Good one called

          by jackie40d1 ·

          In reply to That must have been sometime ago. I’ve been trying Linux

          Need to go to linuxcentral dot com and get
          Xandros desktop OS version 3 and then use your Code Weavers program to run any of the aforementioned Windows stuff ( I call it Messy She hit ! ) and you off to the world and do not have the crashes and run all the windows junk anyway and its all for UNDER $150.00 and it will scream . . I got a 3.0 Intel P4 gigahertz
          with 2 gigs PC-3200 ram and 800 megahertz FSB
          256 DDR ram on video card runs like a screaming bear . .

        • #3274089
          Avatar photo

          I think that you are getting mixed up here

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to The Old Beta/VHS argument strikes again.

          It’s Linux which loads all the necessary Drivers the GUI of your choice and just about all the software that you’ll ever need with only a few exceptions for drivers for some hardware and now they are very few and far between.

          Where as Windows on the other hand requires the Base OS to be installed and then after several Reboots you can start to install all the Device Drivers all of which generally require a reboot after being installed. Then you can start to install your required software as Windows in any form comes with very little.

          Install time for a typical Linux is about 45 minutes and Windows XP on the same hardware several hours to get the OS, Device Drivers and a Base Software install present and then you can download several hundred Meg of Patches to try to make the Platform Secure.

          Sorry but unless a CLI is specifically wanted I haven’t seen one as the default Linux install for well over 10 years now the Default on most Nix Installs is Gnome or you can chose KDE. If you have actually used SUSE you would already know this though and you would already know that you don’t need to dig around for device drivers either unlike you have to do with Windows unless you are using a Slipstreamed Install DVD made by one of the Proprietary Computer Makers Like Dell, HP, Gateway or the like. These are not normal Windows Installs but are installs that only support the hardware originally supplied with the case and when something is replaced UG you’ll most times be told that you need the correct Install CD/DVD to reinstall the OS and software as the crippled installer will not allow the Install Process to proceed because it no longer recognises the internal hardware.

          Gateway are very good at doing things like this particularly when they replace a M’Board UG they don’t give you a new set of Install CD’s/DVD but leave you with your originals which refuse to install when it’s necessary. How you see this as good for the average End User defeats me totally. 😀


        • #3274622

          Picking and choosing to contrive a pattern

          by jgaskell ·

          In reply to agree, and more

          Agree regarding the missing versions. Also, how can you split Windows 3.0 and 3.1 and then combine Windows 2000 and XP? An amusing little idea, but it breaks down pretty quickly.

        • #3275236

          unfortunately jgaskells right: humor loses to facts.However…

          by jennyn ·

          In reply to Picking and choosing to contrive a pattern

          NT/98 are DEFINITELY 2 operating systems, ditto for 2000/XP.

          Also Windows 3.0 bad, Windows 3.1 bad, windows 3.11 good.

          But I do believe the downfall of Vista is predicted in Revalations… note the 6 versions of Vista correspond to the mark of the beast.

        • #3276456

          Lol — gave me a good laugh

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to unfortunately jgaskells right: humor loses to facts.However…

          Thank You

        • #3276602


          by dumbterminal ·

          In reply to Lol — gave me a good laugh

          When slamming MS, rarely is anyone original or funny
          That post was both 🙂

        • #3275065

          NT/98 where were you?

          by dmitchelli ·

          In reply to Picking and choosing to contrive a pattern

          Uh, not remotely close to the same OS, and of everything you listed, 98 was without question the worst OS ever released.
          Must agree that your list was simply created to put forth a poorly conceived pattern.

        • #3276512
          Avatar photo

          NO I have to disagree

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to NT/98 where were you?

          ME was much worse that 98 ever was as it fell over far more often did less and was considered by everyone concerned to be the Worst well known OS that MS ever put out.

          Actually MS Bob was even worse but as that never really reached the number of copies released and there are Laws against [b]Cruel & Inhumane Punishment no one with half a brain ever mentioners it.[/b]


        • #3276455

          98 yes bad, 98SE good

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to NT/98 where were you?

          at least my opinion, and I am still using it on one of my several swappable boot drives

        • #3276428


          by wizardb9 ·

          In reply to NT/98 where were you?

          The worst attempt at an OS by microsoft was ME there is not even a close second on this one and I remember them all very well.

        • #3276319

          I was surprised also (vis-a-vis NT/98).

          by helpusobiwan ·

          In reply to NT/98 where were you?

          I am sure by now someone has beat up ATROON since everyone knows that 98 was almost the last gasp for the 16-bit OS line; followed by the USB version (98SE) and ME (that was a real disgrace).

          I remember hearing about BOB but thought it was one of those Urban Legends so popular on the web.

          NT was M$’s first real effort at a real 32-bit OS … and frankly once they got to 4 it worked like a charm. I went from 3.11 to NT 4 and what a joy it was to leave the computer running for months on end without having to stop and restart all the time. Even XP can’t run untended as long as NT did. I know … my NT system power supply died one night and took the computer with it. The replacement was a brand-name XP system that has to be rebooted about once a week because something runs afoul and locks up.

        • #3276325

          not too difficult

          by helpusobiwan ·

          In reply to Picking and choosing to contrive a pattern

          There were significant changes between 3.0 and 3.1 (having suffered through all the versions from 1.0 to 3.11 on my Toshiba laptop) … but when we went from 2K to XP, the system hardly noticed anything different except on the server side everything got a lot more complicated … like none of my users could run Netscape anymore because the server would no longer authenticate logins through any browser except IckyExplorer which was a real pain to the power users who felt like someone had let the air out of their productive tires so to speak. The old M$ mantra: if you can’t beat’em, freeze’em out.

        • #3274621

          Picking and choosing to contrive a pattern

          by jgaskell ·

          In reply to agree, and more

          Agree regarding the missing versions. Also, how can you split Windows 3.0 and 3.1 and then combine Windows 2000 and XP? An amusing little idea, but it breaks down pretty quickly.

        • #3275252

          who else makes compatable operating systems?

          by bluezero2000 ·

          In reply to agree, and more

          If windows is the good bad and ugly why doesn’t someone come up with another operating system better?

        • #3275201

          There are several “better” ones

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to who else makes compatable operating systems?

          Better at what though ?

          VMS for instance was one of the best multi user application servers ever.
          You are not going to see it on the desktop any time soon though.

        • #3275109

          Compatable with what?

          by cweber ·

          In reply to who else makes compatable operating systems?

          Pick up a live cd some time. I’ve tried quite a few different distros and most have been compatable with any hardware that I had. (xp had to have drivers for onboard NIC downloaded from a different machine just to get online to download the rest) I can hot swap the drives that run xp and read data from the drive. Can I read any other format from an xp machine?
          So by compatable you must mean that I can’t install programs that are expressly written to install on a Microsoft operating system? I don’t see a problem there either.
          I do confess that there are a lot of games that will never be released for anything but microsoft operating systems, but I think that it is naive to think that compatable = M$.

        • #3275040

          ever heard of

          by phineas ·

          In reply to who else makes compatable operating systems?

          ever heard of…
          unix or OpenVMS

        • #3215967

          Linus Torvolds did

          by cewallace ·

          In reply to who else makes compatable operating systems?

          I have recently played with Ubuntu Linux and Vista and Ubuntu installs on more hardware and recognizes devices and loads drivers with NO USER Interaction than does Micro$oft Vista. And Ubuntu is FREE and has BETTER Support than vista.

        • #3218567

          Thank You

          by tagurrit1 ·

          In reply to Linus Torvolds did

          I’m Googling Ubuntu after I post this. ANYTHING to avoid M$!! Even an African OS sounds good to me… [;>)

        • #3218412

          If your not happy with Ubuntu, try Kubuntu or SimplyMEPIS

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Thank You

          Kubuntu is Ubuntu with a default KDE interface, and SimplyMEPIS uses Ubuntu heavily, but has a slightly more power user focus, a bit easier to get at some admin functions.

        • #2486153

          Have you ever heard of LINUX ?

          by jackie40d1 ·

          In reply to who else makes compatable operating systems?

          Go to linux central dot com and go to commercial distro’s get Xandros Desktop O/S Deluxe version 3 ($79.00 ). . Then go to Code Weavers Dot com ( $69.00 )and get their software for under $150.00 you have a system which can run the windows junk and do it better it makes connecting a network so simple its like falling off a log and SECURITY is so much better . . any more questions ?

      • #3138103

        Wasn’t that only a server issue OS – while the OP is dealing

        by deadly ernest ·

        In reply to You missed out 2003

        with desk top OS’s. I did notice he stuffed up a bit Win 2K and Win XP are two seperate issues, and he has the linked. tch, tch.

        But Vista is too expensive in the way of hardware, and incorporates too many counter productive items as core parts of the software. Who needs every employee able to watch videos at their desk, really. I think we’re about to see cases where people are going to lose corporate Internet access at the desk, and only outside contact will be via the mail server.

        • #3138065

          I simply spotted he’d missed a product

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Wasn’t that only a server issue OS – while the OP is dealing

          Personally based on my experience in software, there are releases that are basically a consolidation of the previous that solve existing shortcomings or there are ones which make extensive changes. The latter always go wrong in some respect. Especially when they are more business directed that technical or quality.
          I fully expect Vista to cause problems all over the place, not so much because MS have got it wrong, but because they have no way of satisfying the requirements of all their customer base. A mistake they’ve been making since their initial success.

          Just their pricing and product strategy is going to slap a lot of people in the face.

        • #3138014

          The best way of marketting MS Windows was done with W2K

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to I simply spotted he’d missed a product

          Pro as a desktop or stand alone machine,

          Server for use on a server,

          Advanced Server, for use on a server in a major server network.

          That’s all the versions they need. XP pro was a slightly updated, and eye candied version of W2K Pro.

          Vista is an over eye candied multimedia machine, not suitable for an office environment. And very resource heavy.

        • #3138003

          Not Suitable?

          by hatfira ·

          In reply to The best way of marketting MS Windows was done with W2K

          What makes you say that Vista is not suited for the office? You don’t think that 2000 GPO settings, the ability to lock out USB drives, and the “every user is a standard user” secuity model are not office-friendly? And those are three things I thought of just off the top of my head and not including things like bit locker encryption.

          As for resources, the needed requirements for Vista are well within today’s mainstream computer environment (512MB RAM, 1Ghz processor, and 1024×768 video). I have even been running Vista and Office12 in a VMWare environment that doesn’t meet these specs and Vista is still usable. People look at what Vista wants for all the eye candy and and think that’s what’s needed to even run it, and that simply not true.

          I will grant you however that there are just too many versions. It would make more sense to only have a version for home (without the domain), Pro for business, perhaps one that is stripped to sell to third-world countries, and maybe a Media-Center edition-type. That’s not counting two versions of the server world (Sandard and Eterprise). That should be plenty to cover all the bases for MS and stil not be TOO confusing to users.

        • #3137980

          Going to be a NIGHTMARE !!!!!!!

          by centaur11 ·

          In reply to Not Suitable?

          Users had a problem working out which version of XP they needed, it is going to be a nightmare trying to explain to customers which version they need now, or might need later on with VISTA. Then they will want the ultimate version, but at the home price. This is going to cause a lot of aggravation to vendors, and be very frustrating to users… I am not looking forward to it.

        • #3137954

          You do NOT need a media player machine in the office

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Not Suitable?

          all it does it encourage staff to play videos and movies. from a purely office productivity aspect, the best MS OS ever released was Windows for Workgroups in the Win 3.11 or Win NT versions. The only way you could improve on those would be to change them to handle full 32 bit or 64 bit processing, and 128 bit encryption. It is extremely rare for an office situation to need the media playing capability or to have video conferencing at the desk. So why build an OS around such capabilities, because you’re a fool trying to sell eye candy on the marketing hype again.

          It’s marketing pushing for the many versions of Vista – only need three Desktop (Pro) basic server (Server) heavy server (Advanced Server) end of story. Sell add on applications for the few who need multimedia hype.

        • #3137943

          I agree

          by kiltie ·

          In reply to You do NOT need a media player machine in the office

          [b]”only need three Desktop (Pro) basic server (Server) heavy server (Advanced Server) end of story. Sell add on applications for the few who need multimedia hype”[/b]

          and to add…. drop the price of the Base OS accordingly, if these MM apps are “extra”.

        • #3274881

          What is that is your business model, look more open minded

          by titssni ·

          In reply to You do NOT need a media player machine in the office

          Deadly Ernest,

          I have been looking at your arguments and they are lacking a broader vision. What if you business model requires you to have access to the medias needed for a Media Player system?

          Some companies do provide media and other such contents for their employees as a part of their business model.

          Quote “It is extremely rare for an office situation to need the media playing capability or to have video conferencing at the desk. So why build an OS around such capabilities, because you’re a fool trying to sell eye candy on the marketing hype again.”
          Are you for real?
          What era are you living in?
          With companies providing video conferencing at the desktop levels on PCs and communications devices you’re saying what?

          One thing I notice with most of the posts is, everyone has vast experiences in many OS but NOT in many work environments. Vista is providing a wider array of resources for EVERY business in one install and that may be a plus or minus for your business model.

          If it isn’t, then so be it, pick what is suitable for you and run with it. Microsoft needs to stop trying to please everyone and just stick to a version for consumers and 2 at most for businesses.

          We’re thinking too narrow minded on the issue. I have seen a few sensible posts who hit specific issues on the head. Those are the people who will move ahead and be successful in their adoption and deployments.

          The Suite

        • #3274878

          Re: You do NOT need a media player machine in the office

          by beowulf_cam ·

          In reply to You do NOT need a media player machine in the office

          I provide IT support for Regional Government – including Public Health and Social Services. A lot of information they receive is in video file format which is played with a Media Player. They also use Media Player to present information on laptops and projectors. This was also true when I worked in the private sector.

          You need to widen your horizons before you make blanket statements about what you need and do not need in an office environment. Even some sales tools need Media Players. Don’t go through your career wearing blinkers!

          There is a lot of interesting software out there and you limit your solutions and usefulness without considering all options – even those that may seem at first glance to be fatuous.

          We also try to avoid being IT cops. Either you trust your staff to do their jobs or you don’t. Banning certain products and software can demoralise staff and poison the work environment – which lowers productivity.

          We let them play games in breaks and on lunch. If the work isn’t done — it WILL come back on the staff. Hire the right people and try avoid an oppressive corporate culture. We found that staff are willing to work harder and go the extra mile when they feel trusted and not oppressed.

        • #3274860

          What about video based training

          by bastien1 ·

          In reply to You do NOT need a media player machine in the office

          Our company is one of the leaders in online video based training. We offer extensive course and training management thru our application.

          You really need to look well beyond what your world offers and see where things are going. With ubiquitous broadband the training of your employees is very likely to move to video, either CD based or integrated into a streaming scenario.

          We deal with major retailers and the training of their associates in a growing market for video based training.

          We also use video conferencing to interact between offices and for meetings.


        • #3274855
          Avatar photo

          [b]1 Install???[/b]

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to You do NOT need a media player machine in the office

          You have to be joking currently there are 14 different versions of Vista slated for release 7 32 Bit and 7 64 Bit versions + the server applications and there will have to be at least 1 64 Bit Server app as the new Exchange is going to be a 64 Bit application.

          So by my calculations there will have to be at least 16 flavours of Vista if they continue to call the server versions Vista and most likely more as I can not see MS releasing just 1 server version for 32 & 64 Bit most likely 2 or 3 of each type so that will range from 16 to 20 different versions of Vista.

          Hardly by any means a [b]Single Install[/b] MS product. It’s confusing with several having the same name but slated at different sections of the market it’s going to be a nightmare for resellers to say the least and I’m betting that there will be quite a few who will push the 64 Bit Versions long before they have sufficient drivers let alone Software Available for them to run. Try connecting any Lexmark Laser Printer to a MS 64 Bit OS and see what happens. 😀


        • #3274766

          Multimedia hype? You’re out of touch…

          by kirenl ·

          In reply to You do NOT need a media player machine in the office

          I affectionately call IT people with your mindset “network natzis”. Beowulf’s response was perfectly stated and well articulated. I’m not an IT employee, but my computer use goes back to the days of DOS, and I’ve built a few from scratch.

          My business? I work for a multimedia company that provides web based training. We build OTS courses and custom content for clients. The number of companies that are purchasing or building their own multimedia courses is increasing- drastically. It’s a perfect solution for reaching wide-spread audiences, and can also be localized to meet the needs of companies with employees in multiple countries.

          Training is provided via CD-ROM, streamed via a hosted LMS/LCMS environment, or hosted within corporate intranets. Virtual instructer-led training can also be provided online…I could go on. I won’t.

          In short- you’re out of touch.

          The bottom line: Multimedia is here, and it’s not going away. It’s not hype, it’s corporate culture in many Fortune 500 companies today. I need only refer to our client base for tha information. Bet you’re not working for any of them… 🙂

        • #3274760

          A response about media in the office

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to You do NOT need a media player machine in the office

          In the 25 odd years that I’ve been using micro / personal computers in the work environment, I’ve worked in a couple of dozen different organisations, as a permanent, on loan, or consultant. Big business, middle business, government, and defence.

          Only twice have I been in an environment where multimedia was needed. One was a training centre and multimedia programs were used as part of Computer Based Training packages, that organisation didn’t use multimedia outside of the training rooms. The other was an organisation that designed multimedia packages.

          Last time I checked, two years ago, both those organisations were still running Windows 98SE on P3s, and they were talking about updating to Win XP or switching to Linux.

          Most office environments need people to use word processors, spreadsheets, and accounting packages of various types. As a general rule, they don’t use or need multimedia for their daily work.

          I’ve seen many govt depts where they have multimedia training packages, and they are on a special computer, set aside for the training, it has all the packages etc on it. No other system in the section or branch has multimedia, they don’t need it.

          However, even if your work place is heavy in multimedia training files, everyone that I’ve seen does not need a high end graphics card or huge amounts of RAM to run it, they run quite well on P3s, P4s running Win 2K, Win XP, and Linux, with basic video cards.

          You really only need the high end graphics for commercial movies, ie blockbusters etc, and games.

          Even so, I still don’t see why the OS has to be design as a major multimedia event from the get go. Makes more sense, technically and coding wise, to have a basic OS, and then a multimedia package available as an application to be added as, and when, required. But no, the MS approach is shove everything in to the OS and the kernel.

          Just imagine if you took the same approach to military helicopters, the damn thing would end up about four stories high, and as long as several semi-trailers.

        • #3275073

          Correction: Many office workers do need video . . .

          by sml ·

          In reply to You do NOT need a media player machine in the office

          We have deployed video communications throught our offices, globally as a means to bring our diverse and far reaching workforce messages from department heads, training about products, and many other small packages of information. Do we need Vista to do that? No, we have been encouraging video and audio (with slides and screens) for 4 years. All workers have access to this, not just the so-called road warriors, but all employees. And we encourage all uers to create presentations with video.

        • #3274980

          3.11 the Best or Pest?

          by cebtron ·

          In reply to You do NOT need a media player machine in the office

          Although I agree with much of your post I should object to your praise of 3.11. The English version I liked and used for quite some time. However you would quickly change your views on 3.11 when you encounter Arabic versions of the same. Utter crap would be your likely conclusions I am bold to predict. Arabized OS’s released in follow-up Windows always were a total screw-up for MS. 98SE saw some improvements in later releases but one had to wait until XP finally got Arabic to work. Hence if someone wants to show alternating succeses in OS one should include other language versions too, which likely shifts many positives back into the negatives, your beloved 3.11 included.

        • #3274950

          They could have fixed the problems in the Arabic version

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to You do NOT need a media player machine in the office

          without have to develop a whole new OS, and have done it a lot quicker. If they’d spent the time fixing the problems, such as the Arabic version issue, in Win 3.11 instead of everything else they did to create new, poor OSs, they could have given you a decent experience back in 1995 or 1996, not 2001.

          80% of what’s in Vista is the sort of stuff you would expect to get separately as applications, not the Operating System.

        • #3274859
          Avatar photo

          [b]I have to disagree here DE[/b]

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to The best way of marketting MS Windows was done with W2K

          The best marketing ploy by M$ was the release of 95!

          After all just how many times since have Jo & Jo-Ann Public lined up after hours outside shops to but a copy and [b]Pay Retail Prices At That[/b] for a copy of Windows?That was the best marketing ploy that MS ever developed selling something that wasn’t needed to people who wanted to believe that they [b]Absolutely Had to Have It.[/b]

          It hasn’t happened since and is unlikely to either as by now the masses have become jaded with the offering of of MS. As for the Server Products they only have 1 and that is the Light Duty Server no matter how they badge it anything more than 4 CPU’s and it just fails to make full use of the available processing power. Even 2003 ES when it was first released could only drive a Quad CPU setup to 20% capacity. It took several SP’s to fix that mess up and even still we are limited to a max of 4 CPU’s to get the best performance out of Windows.

          MS has yet to produce a scalable Server Application and with their existing Kernel they are unlikely to ever be able to develop one.


        • #3274759

          Col, that may have been their best marketing project, but I

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to [b]I have to disagree here DE[/b]

          was referring to the best way to package and market the OS. The desktop one should be different to the server one, different needs etc. So you split them. If you have poor coders, you may need a 32 bit and a 64 bit version – so you get four types based on use and hardware.

          The last three sets of Linux disc that I got to try, had the 32 bit and 64 bit systems on them. The install program detected what type of hardware you had, then loaded the correct version, and the correct drivers. This capability seems a bit beyond MS coders. But then, so does the concept of keeping the kernel tight and secure.

        • #3274720
          Avatar photo

          The very concept of Windows is Ease of Use

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Col, that may have been their best marketing project, but I

          Security comes at the bottom of a very long list of [b]Nice To Haves![/b]

          Yes I agree that one install should be able to load the correct drivers for the platform that you are working on but Windows has singularly failed to do this from the very beginning so why should they change things now.

          I just love the people who insist that to properly install Windows all you need is the CD which works great on a Slipstreamed CD but they get lost very quickly when faced with an OEM or Retail install without the necessary Video. Sound and all the other drivers/software for the hardware that they have. 😀

          I’ve lost count of the number of questions that I’ve answered here attempting to explain to people that their computer really isn’t in [b]Safe Mode[/b] but you just don’t have the proper Video Drivers Loaded. They seem to not believe that and if it’s not on the Windows CD there must be something wrong and that is one of the very basic things with any Windows OS. 😀

          Of course with any of the Nix’s you don’t have that problem for some strange reason and you also have built in security. Even MS’s attempt to make you log in as Admin to change something has backfired as it’s overused so most people are just going to [b]Turn It Off[/b] which will only make their systems that much easier to break without trying. 😀


        • #3274715

          Hey Col, MS keep telling us it’s secure, you say it’s to be user friendly

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Col, that may have been their best marketing project, but I

          it’s a pity Windows missed both targets so badly. Oh well. But Bill is still laughing.

          He ‘borrows’ software ideas from everyone else, ‘borrows’ marketing ideas from Thomas Edison, and becomes a millionaire by being the meanest shark in the market. he got market share by being cheap, then started over charging, when he could afford to pay for all the advertising.

        • #3274800

          Intel – Micro$oft

          by tagurrit1 ·

          In reply to The best way of marketting MS Windows was done with W2K

          I have an old 286 laptop with 4 MB’s of RAM that will boot into my menu program (using DOS 6.22), I can select Word Perfect 5.1, type a short letter and send it to a printer and turn the computer off before my brand new X86-3 GHZ Intel duo using WIN2K with 2 Gigs of 533 ram even finishes POST!! And it isn’t even close. Now THAT’S progress!!!

        • #3274793

          In the Words of Boris Badenoff…

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to Intel – Micro$oft

          Hugh Sairit, baby! I’ve already boasted of plugging in my Osborne, turning it on, pressing the two-key “start” and typing in my opened document in 17 seconds (WordStar).

          It took a “gift” from a DOS user (Sharp PC-7000) to even force me to use DOS 2.2 in my home. Trash-80 was better and I hated it.

          Commodore GEOS, had it been allowed to flourish, would have beaten the socks off of M$; the Lisa would have ripped its head off. In fact, they still work and we’re talking of Vista from a crappy ne’er do well to replace yet another in a seemingly endless stream of dysfunctional OS’es from Redmond.

          What really gauls me is that the old addage: “Those who never learn from history end up repeating it”, can never work here because I don’t see a repeat of the quality or functionality of C/PM or DEC/VAX in any future. If it could happen, I’d wait in line to be the first to get it, how about you?

        • #3274771

          Reminds me …

          by tagurrit1 ·

          In reply to In the Words of Boris Badenoff…

          When I was a corporate hack we had a Unix server that ran all of our corporate printing jobs, and this is a fortune 500 company, that had not been rebooted in 6 (six) years! WIN2K server (this was 2001)? Every week at least once. I’ve bought several versions of Linux, including Suns, but none one of them will install on my computers or I’d be using that instead of M$. Someone on a blog I belong to said that all the B$ with M$ was worth it because Gates gave away all his money. Talk about a crock. But then none of them are in IT. So yes I’d jump at ANY alternative that worked better than M$. I hope we move APPS to the web like Ajaxwrite. I can’t wait for M$ to get what’s coming to them.

        • #3275230

          A Celt of ancient Gaul

          by grindy ·

          In reply to In the Words of Boris Badenoff…

          Have you been “gaul’d” by a Celtic person?
          Or did you perhaps mean GALLED?

        • #3274763

          Now if you could get drivers to allow DOS 6.22

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Intel – Micro$oft

          to run the new hardware – gee talk about light speed computing.

        • #3274734


          by tagurrit1 ·

          In reply to Now if you could get drivers to allow DOS 6.22

          What a great idea!! I hope someone reads this and thinks so too, of course someone who could write a driver [;>)

        • #3274604

          I’ve heard

          by dawgit ·

          In reply to Now if you could get drivers to allow DOS 6.22

          it done, someone took some from Win98 Also DOS and back-engineered them to Plain DOS. Actually Free-DOS is quite up-to-date on modern drivers, (so I’ve heard) It’s being packaged with new PCs & NBs (It doesn’t break the Mfgrs ‘deal’ with MS, eventhough they ‘Know’ Linix will be installed) There is possiblities, but… oh-my, no media-player :0

        • #3276591

          I can agree, but…

          by rknrlkid ·

          In reply to Now if you could get drivers to allow DOS 6.22

          I think this is the fault of the new hardware, not the old software.

          I read an article once about a guy who ran Win 3.1/DOS on a 1 ghz machine. He said something to the effect that this was the way that the software was originally envisioned to run. I can agree with that, I think. When the old stuff runs FAST, its pretty amazing.

          But rather than re-invent the software (which did work fine, for the most part), just use the original software in the first place. Other than MultiMate (which has some kind of strange timing issues with CPUs higher than a 386) most DOS software works on modern machines. I have very successfully used DOS 6.2, Lotus 1-2-3 (Ver 2.1!) and WordPerfect 5.1 on Pentium class machines. Fortunately, the printer I use is legacy enough to support both (Lexmark 2930).

          The real problem to me is that the manufacturers are making their hardware to conform to Windows, instead of the other way around.

        • #3274684

          the only reason

          by wizardb9 ·

          In reply to Intel – Micro$oft

          that microsoft is releasing vista at all is so they can build the genuine advantage crap right in.After their first genuine crap designated 2 of my legit computers as pirated I immediately started looking at various flavors of Linux to run my and my customers desktops on.I will never pay for or sell a microsoft product again

        • #3275251

          Registering M$

          by tagurrit1 ·

          In reply to the only reason

          I have a friend who switched his video cards, he has two, from one slot to another and he was required to re-register XP! Hopeless…

        • #3275087

          …I used to walk to school up hill both ways barefooted!

          by kcmplex ·

          In reply to Intel – Micro$oft

          Oh, the good ole days when it was quicker to use Turbo-C to create a utility than to use batch files or basic.

          When an OS was an OS, and not a glorified application.

          When productivity was not measured by how many e-mails were in your in-box and out-box.

          When you did not have to spend half a day to learn a new time saving feature in the spreadsheet app that you thought would save you time in the long run. (I’d love to see real statistics on this one!)

          But, it’s a fun ride regardless!

        • #3276380


          by tagurrit1 ·

          In reply to …I used to walk to school up hill both ways barefooted!

          It was always snowing and at least a six mile walk…right? Let’s revolt and somehow get drivers for the APPS we want for DOS 6.22!!! [;>)

        • #2500517

          you forgot to add

          by jackie40d1 ·

          In reply to …I used to walk to school up hill both ways barefooted!

          In the winter when the snow was over my knees and I had to make my own lunch . . lets see what else was there oh yeah and in the summer it was the aligators bitting at my heels walking to school in waist deep water . .
          hehe sitting here giggling making up stuff

        • #2500495

          Hey Jacquie40d re “sitting here giggling making up stuff”

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to …I used to walk to school up hill both ways barefooted!

          only three things differentiate you from the MS marketing people and executives:

          1. You’re giggling as you realise it’s a joke – they think they’re serious.

          2. You have some basis in reality – they don’t.

          3. What you say has some factual basis – their’s doesn’t.

        • #3276546

          But what else can you do

          by dumbterminal ·

          In reply to Intel – Micro$oft

          with that dinosaur? Not much else, I’m sure

        • #3216052


          by tagurrit1 ·

          In reply to But what else can you do

          Yes and that’s the point. I can’t do a whole lot with it. In its day it was a great machine and in fact is still running unlike every laptop I’ve had since, which have all bit the dust. When I’m out and about I use it to type letters and other word processing stuff. Almost 100% of what I do mobile is write letters so for me it works just Jim Dandy. What I said in the beginning was it’s too bad that’s all I can do with it BECAUSE it works, as a computer, so well.

        • #3215977

          How I can relate to this!

          by rknrlkid ·

          In reply to Intel – Micro$oft

          My “usual” laptop is a Compaq Contura 4/25. It runs DOS 5.0 and Win 3.1. When I want to be PRODUCTIVE, I use that. Few frills, very few whistles (no sound!), no internet to distract me.

          I realized what you said when I was given an old Macintosh Classic. I had never used one before, so I thought I would goof around with it. I was shocked to see how much more productive I was with this 8 mhz system than I was with my 1.8 ghz XP system! Instead of having to figure out what DIDN’T work, it turned on and worked right the first time. I just got right to work.

          Truthfully, I don’t think we have progressed much at all.

        • #3216885

          Do$ 5 & 6.22???

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to How I can relate to this!

          I have read the above articles re: DO$ 6.22, and wonder what the advantage of that is over DO$ 5.

          I agree, when all I was doing was writing letters, I was most content with 8088 and 286 with WordStar or WP 5 & 6. They did boot mighty fast compared to many newer systems, but much MUCH slower compared to C/PM on an Osborn, and the features – as far as typing, printing, and non-wysiwyg – were equal; so little overhead, so much production.

        • #3137982

          What is missing

          by lorenfoster ·

          In reply to I simply spotted he’d missed a product

          Is that he stated that those were the ones that he used, not a collection of all the MS released versions..

        • #3137931

          I stand corrected

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to What is missing

          that it makes it much more scientific 😀

        • #3137940

          Corporate internet access

          by stevef611 ·

          In reply to Wasn’t that only a server issue OS – while the OP is dealing

          What do you mean going? 60 percent of our staff only have E-mail. Other can only go to certain sites. In defense of my boss however, it is a work computer and the user doesn’t own it and etc etc etc.

          > I think we’re about to see cases where
          > people are going to lose corporate
          > Internet access at the desk, and only
          > outside contact will be via the mail
          > server.

        • #3274879

          I’ve worked on systems on a number of business environments

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Corporate internet access

          and most have general Internet access available to their entire work force. Having it restricted to only a few is a rare practice now days. And the most common use by general staff I’ve seen, is for viewing video.

        • #3274690

          Not what i’ve seen

          by llamaking ·

          In reply to I’ve worked on systems on a number of business environments

          I did a breakdown last week in surfcontrol and found that most people are shopping, then reading news, then using web mail. Streaming medias are way down on the list at our plant.

        • #3274882

          2003 is a Server issue but he also lumped NT in there

          by garydunsworth ·

          In reply to Wasn’t that only a server issue OS – while the OP is dealing

          NT is a server OS as well.

        • #3274764

          NT also had a version for desktop use,

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to 2003 is a Server issue but he also lumped NT in there

          as well as the server version.

        • #3276453

          Who Needs Video?

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to Wasn’t that only a server issue OS – while the OP is dealing

          “Who needs every employee able to watch videos at their desk”

          I can say that I work in a company that has webcasts, video conferencing, etc. that require everyone to have at least 1 media player to view the meetings/content.

          While I agree that it is not neccisarily ‘needed’, I doubt that Internet access will be removed to stop people from watching video’s at most companies. Besides, if an employee does it too often, they will probably get fired.

      • #3138030


        by basscomp10 ·

        In reply to You missed out 2003

        Must have been talking about desktop operating systems.

      • #3138025

        No such animal as Windows 2003

        by ramnet9 ·

        In reply to You missed out 2003

        Surprised a programmer thinks there is/was a Windows 2003 .. glad you dont cut my code.

        Vista will be a dog because Microsoft does not GIVE what the IT community wants. Vista is oh so SLOW – requires a major re-investment in hardware and software for no obvious benefits , merely builds on what Microsoft does do well and that is hype something out of nothing. In fact that is what most Americans are expert at hype and bull very short on actual substance and real improvements .. call me a cynic but I wont be making Microsoft richer till they fix what is broke in XP and give me a fast , foolproof and mujch simpler to operate system. PC’s were about doing things easier and faster .. this HAS NOT EVENTUATED.


        • #3138008

          Sorry, Unless we in Australia got a strange product, there was

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to No such animal as Windows 2003

          it was for servers only, and sold as Windows 2003 for Servers, and Win 2003 for Advanced Servers. They released it as the server match for XP, but not at the exact same time.

        • #3137972

          There were FIVE 2003 versions

          by kiltie ·

          In reply to Sorry, Unless we in Australia got a strange product, there was

          See my post below

          EDIT: added link

        • #3137934

          Kiltie not to bright

          by blutiger ·

          In reply to There were FIVE 2003 versions

          You must think IT people are stupid enough to click on your URL when we probably already know it goes to a porn site. Lets get back to the real world dude, the real conversation thats going on in this thread.

        • #3137928


          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Kiltie not to bright

          Bloke wearing a skirt in thumbnail. Must be a cross dressing site. 😀

          Not too bright indeed !

        • #3137921

          With that attitude Tony

          by kiltie ·

          In reply to ROTFLMAO

          You had better not venture out on the Glaswegan streets late at night, unless your Ma’ can sew?

          *** Stitch that!!!”

          🙂 😉


        • #3274901

          Away to ***

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to ROTFLMAO

          Lots of scots, local pub had an england vs scotland new year’s eve rugby game once, total carnage.
          Still mates that evening, but during the game ]:)

        • #3137925

          But, on the other hand?

          by kiltie ·

          In reply to Kiltie not to bright

          I can see your almost blank profile, and learn that you only made one post 2 and a half years ago.

          But if you did likewise, you would soon see that I am an enthusiastic member of TR, with a lot to contribute, and quite active in trying to help other members with problems.

          However, if you were bright enough of a techie you can click a link, knowing you have full protection systems backing you, then find that the link goes to a post later in this thread.

          and if you were a sensitive kind of person, you may even blush for thinking what you just have.

          EDIT: To add that [b][u][i]TinyURL[/i][/u][/b] links have nothing to do with penis size, whatever you may think, they are an [u][i]often used resource in Tech Republic.[/i][/u]

          Go look ’em up, Go do something techie, and leave the rest of us in peace

        • #3274923

          Yeah!! You tell ’em, Kiltie!!

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to But, on the other hand?

          Good job, mate!


        • #3137922

          blutiger is the not too bright

          by stevef611 ·

          In reply to Kiltie not to bright

          The link is a direct link to the place on THIS site where the listing is. tinyurl is a method/resource to give url shortcuts instead of the 438 character urls that often exist. The fact that you obviously spent most of your time with porn is not our problem…

        • #3274875

          OMG, ROTFLMFAO

          by titssni ·

          In reply to blutiger is the not too bright

          /me sets access permissons for BluTiger to technical, no porn sites, pics, files or adult contents, also sets access to a wider array of technical resources and turns on Parental control for his profile/account.

          User is given permissions to access system 28hrs (yep, he needs more hours) a day to try and catch up to the techie world.

          There you go BluTiger, there’s still a chance to catch up.

          Steve, you’re bad man.

        • #3274832

          not quite 438 characters

          by kiltie ·

          In reply to blutiger is the not too bright

          but large enough.

          There were 85 characters in the full link, whereas the tinyurl link has 24.

          Fits on a page better, and you don’t get the “broken link” problem that many forums suffer from, although I understand TR has fixed this bug.

          Anways, that’s why us Techies get used to both using and seeing tinyurls about, they are shorter, neater and go to show that the poster has at least put a little bit of effort into his contribution to make it easier for others.

        • #3274816

          You must just have bad habits…

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to Kiltie not to bright

          …but, just to make sure I wasn’t left out, I went back and clicked on the tinyURL and it took me here:

          I’m sure I wasn’t as disappointed as you will be to see, … nothing but tech stuff, … well written, … with no porn watsoever. Your history must be so saturated that it just finds a porn site no matter what you click on. Bad OS, bad, bad OS.

        • #3274730

          Why thank you Ted

          by kiltie ·

          In reply to You must just have bad habits…

          and others.

          I did quite a bit of research, tracking down the resource links, and collating the bits. As I said, none of them were full timeline histories, although one came close.

          I also spent quite a while with many drafts, checking what facts I could, but didn’t go as far as checking the sources of the sources – too much work lol.

          Even so, it became a quite daunting task, so I cut off the start at QDOS, although there were very interesting histories concerning M$s “shady” history and alleged illegal business practices, but that is a whole ‘nother story in itself, and had no place in what I was trying to do.

          When I saw the sheer plethora of Windows releases from Win2k onwards, I gave up trying to do a complete list, instead just giving typical examples. Even so, I may have missed out some versions, and some versions may be debatable as to whether they should be included, but on the whole I tried my best to supply a more complete list of versions, as many of the previous posts didn’t seem to know about many of those releases.

          I was rather astonished at the sheer number of them, most I hadn’t heard of either, so the research I did, educated me as well.

          So it wasn’t a “complete” list, hence the word (not) in my title.

          I hope it helped some folk, maybe even distracted some from porn surfing for a while…..

          **** wink ****

          😀 😀 ;\ ;\ ]:)

        • #3137945

          Pardon ?

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to No such animal as Windows 2003

          You want a choice ditch windows, until you do MS won’t give you one.

          MS don’t seem to agree with you !

          So the question isn’t am I good enough to work for you but are you good enough to manage me?
          Resounding No, up to press isn’t it?

          If you insulted me simply because I missed “server” out, then your technical awareness is a moot point.

        • #3274819

          I understand completely…

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to No such animal as Windows 2003

          … But I’m hoping you’re not planning on holding your breath.

          I live here and try to work here, but it’s a negative culture on the fast-track to decline. Will we learn from these mistakes? I really doubt it. The general reliance is on the perception of intuitive superiority, and that, combined with exponential growth in willing ignorance, results in running into walls until something cracks, but not improvement.

        • #3274814

          That sounded great

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to I understand completely…

          What did it mean though? 😀

        • #3274811

          As Red Skelton would say, …

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to That sounded great

          I only read ’em, I don’t write ’em.

          Only basackwards.

          You may not like what I meant, but I was talking about the problems in the US with hype versus tangable quality; that I don’t see us making proper and necessary strides in the right directions – that is: making really better products instead of making crap which requires more crap to make it run as advertised.

          I recall hearing with shock and dismay a man who asked me – nearly 10 years ago – if I thought Cisco was a good investment. When I quizzed him as to what he considered “good”, he said he wanted to invest in something that required constant replacement so profits would be assured for each piece sold.

          The last thirty + years has seen the demise of the “American” auto “superiority” mixed with the exponential growth of hype. Now Ford, GM, and American Chrysler are not considered when discussing quality automobiles.

          We have M$, which never put out a purely native product worth using, but bullied their way to the top by buying out or forcing out anyone who did produce reliable products. Most of the best products used were PC-Tools, WordStar, WordPerfect, Aldus publications products, etc.. were either gobbled up or run out of business. M$ got its start by bullying IBM, for crying out loud.

          I work in a field where I daily see the product of our educational system, and it’s mostly hype and cover-up instead of real education. When I read someone who is dissatisfied with US hype, I can understand – as an insider.

          That’s what I was trying to say. I’m sorry it doesn’t come out so clear, but I’m trying to soft-peddle a bit so I don’t sound like a traitor, just as a realist.

          I recently viewed a great film, “Empty Cities”, by Moody Science. It predicted – in 1972 – what I am witnessing, up close and personal. I struggle to remain optomistic, but, as a user, I’m hopelessly frustrated by M$ and other hype-only products that I try to use to produce stuff – like videos.

          It’s simple, but it’s passionately out of whack.

          Sorry for my ramble/rant, but you wanted to know what I “said”, so I decided to put it another way. I would like to see real quality, but find – as with automobiles – it must come from somewhere else, and it usually has taken time historically, and I’m getting too old to wait.

        • #3274762

          Empty Cities?

          by connectr ·

          In reply to As Red Skelton would say, …

          Sounds like an interesting film, but there is no record of its existance at IMDB.
          Where is it available?
          Or is it?

        • #3274643

          Unfortunately, it’s no longer available!

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to Empty Cities?

          I simply had a VHS copy of it from the 1970’s on VHS which just popped up in my basement, so I attempted capturing it, but something like 3000? dropped frames and it looks like a Charlie Chaplin reject – colour washed out and all, but the theme and presentation is exquisite.

          I contacted Moody Science a few years ago and they said it’s no longer available. Don’t know what copyright would say about it or DRM, but stuff, … really good stuff from the ’70’s is extinct. Shame for sure!

          It was produced and narrated by Dr. George Sweeny. Hope that helps.

        • #3274716

          The emoticon :D

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to As Red Skelton would say, …

          indicated I wasn’t hassling you

          Hype is a big problem.
          They’ve got to do it, otherwise why would we spend our hard earned valuta on the next big thing. The next big thing being of course what they want us to buy so they can make money.

          Home PCs are now a fashion statement. I bought mine as a tool and an entertainment. I like playing with computers especially programming, but I’m a very small market.

          Go to be fair my first purchase of a real PC cost me a ?1000 (P200MMX 64M, 40 GB 15″ CRT), so the hype and marketing boys in their success reduced the price dramatically.

        • #3274641

          Hey, the button was there and active,…

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to The emoticon :D

          I sometimes do write too carefully, and from my writer’s standpoint it makes perfectly good sense, but when read from the reader’s standpoint, it’s like art-nuveau. You’re not the first to wonder what was jiggling around inside my head – probably not the last; it’s when I “pull my punches” and refrain from really saying what I mean that I become vague and nebulous. Gotta stop that – I’m almost 60, so it’ll soon be too late, n’est ?e pas?
          Besides, you complimented me before asking what I was saying, … that works for me!

          To be Germain: I can’t see pouring more money down M$’s clogged drain$ for yet another $O$ when I have already spent more for 98/98SE/ME/XP than they ever proved worth. To me, the East can, will, and should put out a truly “non-legacy” computer with an Operating System that simply makes the machine run so that 3rd party programs can do their jobs without eccentric adaptation and workarounds.

          I even would like to return to the heady daze when we plugged cartridges into ports in small units and those provided the OS compatable with the program on ROM – hard to pirate those little guys. Then we could have several computers, but only one or two cartridges for particular programs, and the question of EULA’s would no longer be valid; unplug it from this machine and put it on that one – complete program migration, no unauthorized copies; reduced incompatabilities; one copy works on one machine – change machines, OK, but only one copy left. If the cartridge fails, return it for a new one + upgrade (nominal fee) and you’re back on production. Next-day air would handle downtime. I can stand a 24-48 hour downtime when I’m not losing my production time to BSOD’s and “issues” and “fixes” ad nauseum; how about you???

        • #3275246

          surprised a IT Department Manager thinks 2003 doesn’t exist

          by whocares78 ·

          In reply to No such animal as Windows 2003

          Now i have no problem saying that a 2003 client does not exist, however the plain truth and facts are 2003 server is an OS created by MS, there is no doubting this. i run it on all 5 of my servers, you can’t say it doesn’t exist just because it suits you. I have no idea when you last used a computer but i know for a fact windows 2000 and subsequentally windows xp made my life as an admin a hell of a lot easier, not sure what you think is broke in XP either as i think it is extrememly stable, how often does it bluescreen on you???

          Obviously you are a great coder too, if you are going to cut code you need to paste it too. but most real programmers just code it up themselves.

        • #3275172

          XP was perfectly OK, until they did a major downgrade with

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to surprised a IT Department Manager thinks 2003 doesn’t exist

          the compulsory auto destruction system called WGA (Windows Garbage Attack) so that they could make more money by forcing people to pay for what they already have.

        • #3275140
          Avatar photo

          BSOD’s are the easy things with XP

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to surprised a IT Department Manager thinks 2003 doesn’t exist

          It’s when you are running several thousand XP Pro systems on a volume license and every time that a Service Pack becomes available you have to change the product keys over because the SP insists that the copy installed of XP isn’t genuine, that becomes slightly tiresome and [b]Very Time Consuming![/b]

          Then there is [b]WGA[/b] which when released required another product key change as the product key that MS had issued less than a month previously was no longer recognised as a genuine Product Key. Is known to cause problems in at least 20% of Genuine Product.

          I’ve even seen Action Pack Copies crippled by WGA but as they come direct from MS they are most likely Pirate Copies so they don’t count right?

          But try this out for fun turn off Automatic Updates on a fully patched XP SP2 box leave it turned off for 60 days and see what happens when you try to restart it.

          Then ring MS and get a solution from them to fix up the problem that has been created instead of spending about 1 hour doing an In Place Install you’ll be wasting close to 13 hours doing a repair install and then fixing what the repair broke but that will require another Job Number to be issued by MS because the Breakages are not caused by the WGA fault but by the Repair Install. I honestly spent at least 5 hours on the phone to MS over a 3 day period just to get these destructions. Now I know better but as this isn’t a [b]Normal[/b] repair as the actual owner is now dead and I’m just maintaining the system for the wife so that she has records for Tax Reasons just in case the estate is Audited I didn’t want this happening again.

          The end result is that next time I have to go there I’ll blow away the installation of XP reinstall the base OS apply SP1 and leave it at that with just a free AV product in place just in case they actually use the computer some time again this year again.


        • #3215944

          Wow. Who keeps E-Bay-ing your product keys? ;)

          by Anonymous ·

          In reply to BSOD’s are the easy things with XP

          Don’t worry. They are going to fix that one for you in Vista. Even corp. users will get to enjoy the magical thrill of product activation. I can hardly contain my excitement, personally.

        • #3215879
          Avatar photo

          Me Neither

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Wow. Who keeps E-Bay-ing your product keys? ;)

          That’s why I’m checking myself into Hospital to be cured from the newly discovered disease [b]Information Overload.[/b]

          It just doesn’t bear thinking about does it? 🙁


        • #3276618

          No such IT manager as ramnet@

          by now left tr ·

          In reply to No such animal as Windows 2003

          Surprised an IT Manager thinks there was not a Windows 2003 .. glad you don’t manage my enterprise.

        • #3216116

          I thought Australians spoke English

          by dumbterminal ·

          In reply to No such animal as Windows 2003

          . ‘Vista is oh so SLOW’
          How long have you been using it to make that assumption, and why do you have to slam Americans?

        • #3216109
          Avatar photo

          Well I have to agree

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to I thought Australians spoke English

          VISTA is so SLOW on the same hardware as other OS’s. But I don’t have much experience with it as I’ve only been playing with it since MS released it in Beta Form. In another 10 years I might be able to say something definitive about what I think about it. That is if I can remember Vista then as according to MS they are releasing a Major SP every 2 years and a new OS every 4 years so lets say Vista finally gets released in 2007 so sometime from 2009 to 2010 there will be a Major SP for Vista and then sometime from 2011 to 2012 there will be a new OS to replace Vista though MS may chose to call it Vista Ultimate [i]Insert the correct version here[/i] Version 2 so that people will continue to buy their product. Time will tell on this one depending on how well Vista is accepted by the market initially and how widely it is adopted.

          If it takes off like an express train they can justify using a new name for the next OS that they make and if sales are slow they will need to make out that they have just upgraded Vista to make it work better like Windows NT3 to 3.5 to 4 or 98 to 98SE.

          Personally I think that thee is too much built in that is not possible to remove for a business OS but as a Games Platform it looks great.


        • #3216064

          Vista is slow on the majority of systems currently in use

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to I thought Australians spoke English

          and the people being commented on are the MS management, marketing, and coders – the individuals who are responsible for this Application. Unlike past systems where you had an operating system with a few applications included, Vista is a whole swag of applications with a little bit of operating system included.

          The fact that the majority of people being bagged for their poor work, are from the USA is a minor point, and not that relevant to the discussions of their work.

        • #3274387

          Now, all of a sudden it’s not M$, but Amurakan ba$h???

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to I thought Australians spoke English

          What profound logic: M$ = America/America = M$???

          If it’s good, it’s good; conversely if it has a history of crappy behavior, and the company has a history of bullying and force and all that M$ is well-known for, … world wide; … so be it.

          Are you saying that America is the justification for, … Wait! I’ve got it: “America Uber Alles!!!” Gotcha. Doesn’t matter if the products are good, bad, or indifferent, if they come from America, they’re simply sacred (unquestionably right). I live here, was born here, have lived from coast to coast and in between. Listen up, world: I drive a used Toyota, and you know why? Because it still runs after 100,00 miles; I can still get parts for them, mechanics can fix what’s wrong with them. I prefer my used Toyota to my daughter’s new Ford (I got the Toyota from her).

          Why? Because I’m anti-American??? No. I do not have BG’s $ta$h, so I must buy carefully and I must be able to rely on something that lasts. I have bought Chrysler/Dodge products, but only because they run well and they last, and they have Mitsubishi to thank for that.

          When Americans persist in putting crap over quality; when they insist that making the customer buy more just to make the first purchase run as advertised; when they won’t invest in a company who does not demonstrate the dedication to breakdown, again forcing the customer (read victim) to buy more to make up for inefficient (and designedly so) parts and service; then Americans deserve slamming.

          When we produce and distribute quality, we will be heralded for that accomplishment; not unless and until. What you have demonstrated is not “Loyalty”, but “Vanity” (emptyness). It does not make you look very smart, and embarrasses the rest of us. Dedicate yourself to Truth, beauty, quality, and your only enemies will be those who oppose those things. Of course that will mean being one of us, and perhaps that’s too bitter for you just now, but – hopefully you will grow, learn, and change.

        • #3217041

          Wish I knew what you were talking about

          by dumbterminal ·

          In reply to Now, all of a sudden it’s not M$, but Amurakan ba$h???

          This is what I was talking about:
          ‘In fact that is what most Americans are expert at hype and bull very short on actual substance and real improvements .. ‘
          That would be no different than me saying ‘most black people do this, or most Jews do that’

          I drive foriegn cars for the same reason you do BTW

        • #3216910

          So do I…

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to Wish I knew what you were talking about

          I wish you knew what I was talking about.

          If people perceive (rightly, I think) that Americans are expert at hype and bull, and very short on actual substance and real improvements, it’s because that’s what they have experienced repeatedly. It’s what I have experienced repeatedly since the ’60’s. Even in the ’80’s, I was repairing appliances, including vacuum cleaners, but today the crap that’s sold – especially in the high priced bracked – is really worse than things made in the ’50’s. There’s some modest “improvement”, but the lost basic usability more than subtracts from the overall acceptability. Cars, same thing.

          Saying “most” do this or that is based upon one’s perspective, I’ll agree, but there simply is not enough going on to balance the equation enough that the general public is not justified in their assessments. Unless and until the US brings forth better products in great quantity, this perspective will continue and grow – as it has the past 20 years or so.

          You drive the same foreign cars for “the same reason”? What’s your complaint? What don’t you understand?

      • #3137966

        Also missed…

        by rsflea ·

        In reply to You missed out 2003

        Also missing is Windows 2.0 which was the first exposure I had to M$

        • #3274916

          Win2.0 wasn’t an OS

          by mtbandit ·

          In reply to Also missed…

          The first two versions of Windows were not positioned as operating systems. They were created as add-on environment to lure Mac developers into a GUI environment for the PC. Windows 2 wasn’t normmally sold separately — you usually got it bundled with Pagemaker or some other GUI intensive program. (Anyone out there remember Digital Research’s competing GUI, GEOS?)

          For that matter, the Windows 3.x versions weren’t marketed as an OS either. They were still sold as add-ons to MS DOS 6.x, though unlike the predecessors, Win3.x was the first sold on its own, unbundled. You still had to buy DOS 6.x, though.

          Win NT was the first Windows-as-OS product (Gates said in an interview that WinNT would have been OS/2 if they hadn’t split with IBM over the direction to take with it). Win95 was the first home version positioned as an OS, but underneath it was still basically Windows 4.0 over DOS 7. They made it so you couldn’t just boot to DOS directly.

        • #3274845
          Avatar photo


          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Win2.0 wasn’t an OS

          No haven’t seen that one since I last went looking for something on floppies. 😀

          I can guarantee that if I wanted to find my copy I wouldn’t be able to quickly though but if I’m looking for something else it always seems to be one of the first things that I run across. :^0


      • #3274728


        by techietim ·

        In reply to You missed out 2003

        umm there was no windows 2003. I dont know what your speaking of but XP was the last incarnation of windows my friend.

        P.S. I’m completely brainwashed by bill gates and I’ve been using Vista for months and have yet to be really impressed.

        • #3275200

          Well normally I’d bow to your definitive expertise

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to what?

          but you are wrong according to Microsoft.


        • #3276605

          2K3 – I think so!

          by now left tr ·

          In reply to what?

          TechieTim in Networking / LAN Administration – yeah right. 1000 lines “There is a Windows 2003 and it is a Server” then get back to class BOY!

          P.S Not so brainwashed as you thought then…

      • #3274714

        Couple of merges too

        by vectra-v6 ·

        In reply to You missed out 2003

        A couple of OS’s were merged aswell, Win 98 & NT (is that NT 3.1, 3.51 or 4???)NT also had a completely different kernel from 98.
        And since when did Win 2K release at the same time as XP? XP may have a selectable Classic interface that looks like 2K but it aint 2K.
        All this means the pattern is a bit .. shot to bits.
        Upto now I like the feel of Vista, but it does seem power hungary on the spec of PC needed to run it properly.

      • #3274711

        Early version of Windows

        by kactusjack ·

        In reply to You missed out 2003

        I remember the original Windows, just called Windows, then came Windows 286 and then Windows 386. That all came before Windows 3.0

      • #3275155

        missed 2003

        by zamruth_ahmed ·

        In reply to You missed out 2003

        Well, conveniently so as to give credbiblity to his theory.. n way. give the poor kid a break…

      • #3275061

        they also skipped 2000

        by cap0008 ·

        In reply to You missed out 2003

        So that makes it bad

      • #3275051

        2003 is a server based product. HELLO

        by tom.x.spencer ·

        In reply to You missed out 2003

        Dude he was only comparing the desktop OS’s not server class. 2003 is server class. Technically that would still fall under 2000/XP since 2003 is just Windows XP server.

      • #3275023

        2000 and XP not a single product

        by pottsd ·

        In reply to You missed out 2003

        Using the logic 2000 was good and XP bad would make Vista good.

      • #3274978


        by lawrence.ladouceur ·

        In reply to You missed out 2003

        2003 isn’t an operating system.

        • #3274938

          What exactly do you consider

          by dawgit ·

          In reply to 2003?

          a server OS? If it’s not an OS, then how do you explain what it is that a server platform runs on? -d

        • #3276502

          You are quite right

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to 2003?

          it’s a number isn’t it.

          Silly me.

      • #3215808

        I guess we are just discussing Client OS

        by haritswarup ·

        In reply to You missed out 2003

        i think he missed 2003, sinc eit is not the client OS. Aren’t we just discussing client Os and not Server OS

      • #3215807

        I guess we are just discussing Client OS

        by haritswarup ·

        In reply to You missed out 2003

        2003 is not a client OS. May be thats why he did not mention it.

    • #3275794


      by charles ·

      In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?


      • #3275773


        by beowulf_cam ·

        In reply to GO BACK FURTHER

        You can remember Dos 1.0? I have a visual image of old time techies in tweed jackets gathered around a small flickering screen in a darkened room…

        • #3138083

          Old timers

          by 0b1111 ·

          In reply to Wow!

          Plenty of us still out there that have been through all of DOS and Windows. And in my case early Apple operating systems..ahh the joys of ProDos and 5 Mb Profile hard disks the size of a loaf of bread.

          What I have learned is to do your risk assessment before anything else. ‘What ifs?’ can save your sanity, and maybe prevent early hair loss in the younger members, and Rogaine for the rest of us relics.

          But speaking as one who has been around for a while…. I LOVE IT! The challenge alone and pace of change keep the noodle ticking.

          And BTW I NEVER wore a tweed jacket. I much preferred a white dust coat and grimey pocket protector, coke bottle thick glasses, and slide rule in the back pocket. Tweed was for those english techs.

          Note also that there were no screens to gather around. Punch card terminals and toggle switches on front panels to load software did however give me a hunch 🙂


        • #3137949

          Old timer myself and Vista will wait…

          by high altitude ·

          In reply to Old timers

          I never wore a tweed jacket either but loved my white dust coat and very grimey pocket protector and enjoyed all the changes from DOS to Windows and the XP versions 1, 2 etc.

          However, in the past 5 years, with the explosion of internet users and viruses and gazillion Microsoft patches, switching to Vista will wait… I’m in no hurry to get into another round of patching and re-patching MS patches with Vista.

        • #3137932

          Shucks, Back In The 40’s

          by ole man ·

          In reply to Old timers

          We had only ONE choice…..BS 1.0, and the only screens we had to look at was the screens on the windows, not the Windows on the screens.
          We just shot pirates and locked up burglars, and if we got a virus we just went to the doctor, we didn’t have to pay a ransome.

        • #3138081

          we wore tshirts then, too

          by ancientmath ·

          In reply to Wow!

          The tweed jackets were the old stoagies that told us that computers would never be mainstream or that “windows is just a fad”.

        • #3138056

          old school

          by flh70 ·

          In reply to we wore tshirts then, too

          DEC Tape and paper tape. No option or module swaps. 16 K system were hot.

        • #3138052

          Edlin 1.0

          by ancientmath ·

          In reply to old school

          loaded from a cassette tape, took 15 minutes. no documentation.

        • #3137963

          Edlin in Minneapolis

          by jimtheengineer ·

          In reply to Edlin 1.0

          On the western edge of the city of Minneapolis here in Minnesota there is a street sign that says, “TO EDLIN PL.” Yes, there is a street (or “Place”) named Edlin – and yes, it is a dead end street. :o)

        • #3137958


          by ndynamics ·

          In reply to Edlin in Minneapolis

          What, you guys don’t use edlin anymore? 🙂

          I booted up my CP/M system the other day the try to retrieve some data and couldn’t remember how PIP worked. But I did accomplish my task, reading an almost 25 year old 8″ floppy with a dBase II database and eventually pulling the data into MS Access. I got most of it too!

          Anybody remember the first double-sided 8″ floppy disks – the ones you had to pull out and flip over to store data on the “double side”?

          Punch cards and paper tape, blah. The first PC’s were the real revolution.

        • #3138070


          by steve ·

          In reply to Wow!

          Hmm, DOS 2.0 – that was the 5 and a quarter disks with the sort of pink, label, wasn’t it?

          My first experience with DOS was when out lecturers excitedly announced that they’ve got a new IBM PC for the Computer Studies Dept, but could we please shut ourselves in with to the room with a manual and work out how to format a floppy disc so that they could start to use it.

          Ah, after changes, we are more or less the same, as Simon & Garfunkel once observed…

        • #3138035

          no ticket tape folks!

          by viveka ·

          In reply to Anecdotage

          Still miss programming flash memories, on z90 and 8086 processors, and for kicks, printing (aka punching holes)on ticker tapes to see what went wrong where… nothing like taking the time to debug one instruction at a time….

        • #3137995

          Remember this?!?

          by gm1cusnr ·

          In reply to Anecdotage

          I can dimly remember back in the mid 80’s,(I think)when the Winchester Salesman/Technician Installer arrived at our Facility, – which should remain nameless to protect the guilty, -but the initials are:(DOD/USN), everyone was soooo excited… He had brought along a !NEW! ‘Winchester’ Disk (20- inch metal O.D. ring covered with magnetic ‘magic pixie dust’), to install for a ‘HardDrive Upgrade’ on our old UNix (Fortan – my cheater notes binder weighed a whopping 8 pounds!)originally it used Data Punch Cards, w/ Reel to Reel Magnetic Tape. – “Yessir, THIS babys gonna bring ya’ll right up into the SPACE AGE! THIS HERE is called a Winchester Disk,… THAT big enclosure is the Harddrive for it to run in… Why, I GUARANTEE you’ll NEVER run out of hard drive space! – Man, THIS thing holds a whole MegaByte of Information! Never fill That up in a whole lifetime!” – our Federal Tax Dollars at work…

        • #3137952

          In the 1980’s I worked for 3rd party mainframe maintenance co

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Remember this?!?

          And spent many thousands on 300 MB disc pack, that used 12 inch platters, and stood as high as a bottle of milk. Bought hundreds for client. Also did huge memory ypgrades, putting chips in that were the size of most people’s thumbs, they had a whole 2 KB of ram each – the memory boards used about 50 each, ahd to replace all on the board at once.

          even had an early micro computer, used two, wow, two brand new 5.25 inch floppies, one for the program, and one for data. the previous years version used a 12 inch floppy.

        • #3274796

          Yeah, I remember…

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to In the 1980’s I worked for 3rd party mainframe maintenance co

          I had to ressurect an IBM System 26/32; 8″ Floppies w/120v Disc systems. The 13-26″ copper “Hard Drives” that could walk the entire system out the door if they got out of balance.

          What great daze, huh?

        • #3274911

          Ahhh, but!

          by mtbandit ·

          In reply to Remember this?!?

          Do you recall WHY it was called a Winchester disk?

          Actually, I’ve heard two stories, possibly related. One was that the first Winchester cabinet consisted of dual 30MB platters and the lead developer was a gun enthusiast (Winchester 30-30, of course).

          The other tale is that it was developed at IBM’s Winchester, England laboratory.

          Unfortunately I don’t recall which one’s true. Maybe both…

        • #3274873

          Ahhh, but! MayBe???

          by gm1cusnr ·

          In reply to Ahhh, but!

          I’d overheard(long ago…and far, far away…)That the Company name WAS ‘Winchesrter’ and were out of are you ready for this… – Hartford, Conn. USA – However, I never thought to check and see if that was correct. To busy trying to save the world – one Byte at a time.

        • #3274725

          Two slightly different reasons

          by kiltie ·

          In reply to Ahhh, but!

          But all seem to agree on it being named after the rifle.
          The differences are:
          One says it was because of the twin 30MB platters.
          The other because it was down to the 30MB storage and 30 ms access time.

          Here are some sample quotes, together with sources that I found on a brief search.


          Winchester disk
          An early type of hard disk.

          [After the Winchester, tradename for a .30-30 rifle, a rifle shooting a .30-caliber bullet with a powder grain size designation of 30 (from the disk’s storage capacity of 30 MB and its access time of 30 milliseconds).]


          Winchester disk drive Last modified: Friday, March 21, 2003

          Another term for hard disk drive. The term Winchester comes from an early type of disk drive developed by IBM that had 30MB of fixed storage and 30MB of removable storage; so its inventors called it a Winchester in honor of its 30/30 rifle. Although modern disk drives are faster and hold more data, the basic technology is the same, so Winchester has become synonymous with hard.


          [b][i][I like this next one ‘cos it also gives an explanation for why the famous rifle was itself called a 30/30)[/i][/b]

          The American Heritage? Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.

          Winchester disk

          NOUN: An early type of hard disk.
          ETYMOLOGY: After the Winchester, tradename for a .30-30 rifle, a rifle shooting a .30-caliber bullet with a powder grain size designation of 30 (from the disk’s storage capacity of 30 MB and its access time of 30 milliseconds).


          [b][i]This is my favourite, as it comes from IBM own online history and includes a quote[/i][/b]

          [ ……. ]

          [i]* Some observers have noted that the 3340 was known as “Winchester” because its development engineers called it a “30-30” (its two spindles each had a disk capacity of 30 megabytes), the common name of a rifle manufactured by the Winchester Company. Kenneth E. Haughton, who led the 3340 development effort, is reported to have said: [b]”If it’s a 30-30, then it must be a Winchester.”[/b][/i]

        • #3137938

          You’re all newbies

          by greytech ·

          In reply to Wow!

          I started with main memory of 8Kb, yes bits not 8KB nickel delay line memory, 250KB magnetic drum, paper tape input and all valve(tubes for US readers) electronics in ’63. My wife calls me a newbie as she started programming in ’59. Sold Intel 4004s in ’71, 8008 in ’72, 8080 in ’73 all with Intel development kits SIM401, SIM801 then into Intellec 80’s. First HD on an Intel development system for me was in ’78, a 5MB DRI (Data Recording Instruments) later to be absorbed into ICL.

          CP/M and DOS 1.0 had little to choose between them DOS 2.0 allowed for HDD with a few other enhancements the rest has been said.

          Yes I did wear Tweed but not ’til much later when I came out of management and went back to being a techie in the late ’80s, because it was more interesting and less political.

        • #3137924

          Oh, by the way

          by agent 77 ·

          In reply to You’re all newbies

          do you remember the first time you heard of a “mouse”….. hahahahahahaha

          before that we had to type uphill both ways to get there

        • #3137919


          by ole man ·

          In reply to Oh, by the way

          We used to set traps for them. Caught a few, too.

        • #3274865


          by titssni ·

          In reply to Mouse?

          Ole Man,

          Same here, Still do today just using more sophisticated solutions because they got smarters and started running on Windows and was multi-tasking – lol.

          What can I say, I miss DOS 🙁

          The Suite

        • #3274870


          by gm1cusnr ·

          In reply to You’re all newbies

          And I thought I was old! OK I admit: ‘I’m not worthy, I’m not worthy, I’m not worthy,…

        • #3276313


          by jtcat01 ·

          In reply to You’re all newbies

          Anyone recall writting Colbat and Fortran programs? A one megabtye hard drive was 6 12 inch disk on a machine the size of a gas pump? When tape and punch cards ruled the world?

        • #3216114
          Avatar photo

          Oh that was Newbie work

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to newbies

          I personally didn’t bother with that new fangled stuff as I didn’t think that it would last. 😀

          Then I saw Basic and got really scared. 🙁


        • #3274300

          I think a copy of “Desk Set” is a must for true training…

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to newbies

          Spencer Tracey / Kate Hepburn and Emerac (Emmy) are great to show the true “legacy” of the present day “wonders”.
          I use old textbooks of those old “dinosaurs” when I teach a class I lovingly (but not jokingly) call, “You gotta believe me when I tell you, ‘You don’t need to know what I’m about to teach you'”.

          I then go into the real history of punch cards and paper tapes and reel-to-reel tape systems and the blinking lights and show the umbelievable correlation between the punch card 256? bytes which is still the basis of todays high-speed computing. It’s a hoot, but it’s valuable to see why today’s glutted programs behave as badly as they do.

        • #3274910

          Don’t get us oldies started…

          by cs ·

          In reply to Wow!

          I remember when they invented 8 inch floppy disks that held 128K of data. A lot easier than paper tape so data input and storage …

        • #3274887

          Flintstone Computers?

          by beowulf_cam ·

          In reply to Don’t get us oldies started…

          Stone box with a little bird pecking out bits and bytes on a stone HDD…hampster or other rodent providing power. Mainframes with small chimps using an abacus in a large box… To upgrade your O/S you get a smarter chimp… my mind was warped by the Flintstones when I was a child.

        • #3274833
          Avatar photo

          And that is most likely where Vista will take the Business Masses

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Flintstone Computers?

          But instead of requiring floors of space for that Mainframes they will fit in a room the size of a [b]Broom Closet[/b] and instead of using [b]Dumb Terminals[/b] we will be using these new fangled [b]Thin Clients.[/b]

          I’m using more and more of these things as time goes by with a decent OS on some great Hardware be it Unix, Linux, BSD or whatever anything except Windows all packed into a small box in an even smaller AC room and lots of wires running out to the terminals.

          But this time some [b]Gun Typist[/b] will not be able to crash the entire system every time that she wants a coffee break.

          If anything MS is contributing to the demise of the desktop in a lot of business by their over priced under valued Licensing arrangements.

          I’ve been selling MS product since they started & I’m still not totally sure what the [b]Licensing Requirements[/b] are this week. Thankfully MS has a lovely young woman who I tell what is required and she does all the hard work I just pay for what I’m told that I need. 😀


        • #3274795

          … And do remember, … Paper Punches???

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to Don’t get us oldies started…

          They tried to tell us that paper punches + flipping floppies would damage our reading heads, but I never had to replace any 5.25 drives in any of my Osbornes, … did you?

      • #3274889

        Why not start at the beginning of Microsoft’s treacherous history?

        by helpusobiwan ·

        In reply to GO BACK FURTHER

        It isn’t surprising that DRI* CP/M-86 was better. It was DRI’s port of the popular CP/M series for the 8086/88 chip. But DRI wouldn’t sell all the rights for pennies so Microsoft contracted with a fella across town to port an older CP/M to the 8086/88 and Microsoft sold that to IBM instead. So IBM got beef instead of filet mignon. The whole sordid history is laid out here (

        I am glad to see that Microsoft was later forced to cough up a few bucks … probably a bittersweet victory of sorts for Gary Kildall … especially after Microsoft had all the hard evidence destroyed ( As Sir Walter Scott said, “Oh what tangled webs we weave …”

        * DRI = Digital Research Inc

        • #3274798

          C/PM, those who knew it, … Loved it.

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to Why not start at the beginning of Microsoft’s treacherous history?

          What the Osborn could do with C/PM and the OZROM (EPROM). “Boot” in 17 seconds and I was into my document and typing. It was a vast improvement over the paper tape reels I used with the Frieden Just-O-Writer, but I could still make spelling corrections by running the tape reader and punch system until I arrived at the correction needed, then move the reader ahead while I punched the proper string.

          WordStar! Wow! SuperCalc (Sorcim) with three files linked: 1. Formulae, 2. Values, 3. Programming. Then dBASE II2.3b; what a marvel! Nothing like ’em before, and nothing like ’em again (I hate SQL).

          M$ pirated the market, but those of us who knew and worked with quality will never forget, nor forgive. I could spend 90% of my time producing. Today 80% i$ lo$t to ma$$ive, intru$ive, maintainence ju$t to satisfy the collap$e of M$ O$.

          If I could have an Osborn with video/audio facilities, I’d never give M$ another look (and don’t tell me M$ made A/V possible; they stole that from the real brains).

        • #3276395

          You got that right, Ted!

          by helpusobiwan ·

          In reply to C/PM, those who knew it, … Loved it.

          I also remember when we spent 90% of our time working; the rest waiting for the hardware to catch up! 😉

          Now I have a new H-P Pentium D with 2GB RAM and Micro$oft XP Media Edition … and it still takes longer to boot up than it does to type a typical letter. And every week Micro$oft is downloading and installing more security updates and such; since they didn’t get it right the first time.

          And the time spent in the corner office (now that $400/hr managers have replaced $20/hr secretaries) arranging margins and paragraph formats just has to be seen to be believed. Even as a lowly technician it would never have ocurred to me to do all that formatting … isn’t that the secretary’s job anyhow?!?!

          Speaking of WordStar and SuperCalc (both head and shoulders above the crowd but unfortunately lacking the proper marketing folks) … another rock solid tool was Borland’s Reflex. What a gem. Still use it today (except on this XP Media Edition machine as Micro$oft has scrambled a character table somewhere and finally killed the DOS compatibility). As if their Acce$$ could ever touch it for usability.

    • #3275792


      by aditya_mrt ·

      In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

      I am fully agree with you. I checked all the MicroSoft OS in different Hardware.

      Aditya Kumar
      785/2, Shastri Nagar,
      Meerut (India)

    • #3275781

      Slight modification

      by mgp2 ·

      In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

      I would just modify (slightly) your description on the Windows ME line (a.k.a. Windows Miserable Edition or Major Embarrassment).

      Windows ME: Incredibly, horribly BAD

    • #3275777

      Vista Doomed?

      by researcher75 ·

      In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

      Your proposal leaves out too many other versions:-

      Windows 98: BAD
      Windows 908SE: GOOD
      Windows NT: GOOD
      Windows 2000: GOOD
      Wiondows XPSP1:BAD
      Windows XPSP2: GOOD
      Windows Vista: GOOD?
      Windows ?????: GOOD

      My experience of VISTA now that I have installed Candidate 1 is quite good, their are certain features I don’t like and one hopes that manufactures will be able keep up with the new regime, but with Office 2007 and IE7, VISTA runs sweet.

      Really depends on the system one sets it up on, but cheapy stuff and you get a cheapy result!

      • #3275727

        Your proposal ALSO leaves out some variables…

        by justinsvalois ·

        In reply to Vista Doomed?

        Just my two cents, feel free to disagree… as much of this was when I was still in elem – mid school I was NOT in the field… but for home use, these are my ratings.

        DOS as far as I can remember DOS was great, but then all I did was destroy my computer teaching myself about how HEX editors worked and such worked. Damn kids, break stuff too much. 🙂

        Windows 1 (anybody remember that? No windows, just menus) *this was before my time but I did download it once.
        Windows 3.x (ALL SUCKED)
        Windows 95 SUCKED
        Windows 98 SUCKED
        Windows 98se Better, but SUCKED
        Windows NT Decent
        Windows ME COMPLETELY BLEW
        Windows 2000 OK, but not great
        Windows XP SUCKED
        Windows XP sp1 SUCKED
        Windows XP sp2 almost getting better….
        Windows Vista ???? can we say prolly SUX!
        Windows Vista sp1 ???? See above
        Windows Vista sp2 ???? Lets give them the benefit of the doubt… Should be Decent. ??

        • #3275648

          My 2 Cents

          by kirkdavis666 ·

          In reply to Your proposal ALSO leaves out some variables…

          I go back to to OSs with no name that ran on tape. I’ve run just about every DOS/Windows, including HDOS. Best of all time was NT. Would run 24/7 forever without crashing. XP SP2 is second, assuming it’s properly tuned.

        • #3218712

          NT was great, but…

          by kcmplex ·

          In reply to My 2 Cents

          I found NT to be very good OS as long as you did not install anything that was not on the original install disks. Once you installed, for example, MS Office, then it became instantly unreliable. Win2k was what win98 was promised to be, and XP…well I still have to reformat the HD and reinstall everything from scatch every 1.5 to 2 years. If this was my only judgment criteria, then any MS OS other than DOS “suck”.

        • #3138069

          Windows 1?

          by steve ·

          In reply to Your proposal ALSO leaves out some variables…

          I don’t recall there being a Windows 1 or Windows 2. IIRC, Windows/286 was the first, followed by Windows 386 (when things started to come alive – compared to what we had before then!). Windows 3.0 was the first version of Windows as we know it, and it was numbered 3 because of the previous 286 and 386 versions.

          I do disagree with your rating of 98, especially 98SE. Lots of BSODs as I recall, but far, far better than 95. Similarly, I’ve a slightly softer memory of all XP versions.

          I think, thought, we also have to factor in the hardware base we were running these things on. Single floppy 4.77 Mhz PCs, anyone? Even going to a twin floppy was a quantum leap, and what excitement we had when out IT department all got shiny new IBM ATs with a 16MHz chip. It’s not really fair to compare operating systems (and early Windows versions weren’t really OSs because they ran under DOS) because our machines are a lifetime away from the old steam powered crocks we had in the mid-80s. My PDA has more processing power than the whole college had when I was learning the profession!

          Says he, only 42 on Monday and sounding like a dinosaur himself…


        • #3138026

          I’m a dinosaur?

          by justanopinion ·

          In reply to Windows 1?

          LOL I remember 286 and 386. I still have my manual and floppys for 3.3, and back in my college days, my computer programming classmate gave me his 5.0 disks so I could upgrade to the “rest of the world”! (I think he liked me 😉 hehe, and today, they have locked software so we can’t do that). It doesn’t seem that long ago that I laid to rest, that beautiful black with green letters monitor.
          I have two boxes of floppies with information that I need to transfer to the new age and even better, I have programs on the big 5.25’s in a box in my closet!
          What I’m having a hard time remembering, is when the internet first appeared. I don’t know if I got it when it first came out or if I had to wait, but I remember my big, bright blue eyes, excitement and hunger when I first hooked up and saw information I’d never have known existed and real moving pictures on my screen! lol It took forever to get that stuff to load compared to the cable I have now, but I didn’t notice that then. lol
          So to all you dinosaurs out there, a big wink and a grin!

        • #3137979

          Windows 2

          by dwight-watt9 ·

          In reply to Windows 1?

          I do not recall Windows 1 but I actually still have a copy of Windows 2 in the box on 5.25 diskettes. It was not a very friendly system.

        • #3137971

          Happy Birthday!

          by jerryfr ·

          In reply to Windows 1?

          Coincidence, I’ll tack one on next Monday 10/30 as well. A bit older though. I was 23 when you arrived and had been in IT (or whatever it was called back then) for 7 years by then.

          I recall all of the PC history you mentioned. I agree with your assessment of Win98, that was bad news. Never even bothered with it nor with ME either. I don’t know how Win2k and WinXP are couples together as one release. Both are ‘good’ releases.
          I don’t think this ‘alternative releases’ theory is being forceed a bit.

        • #3274843

          Guess I must be pre-dinosaur then

          by michael l hereid sr ·

          In reply to Windows 1?

          As your only 4 yrs older than my daughter and I was 26 when she was born.
          By the way Windows 95/98/98SE/Me all ran on dos. Also Windows 2k/XP was on NT kernal just later editions.
          Vista is based on Server 2003 kernal.

        • #3138063

          And your “proposal” just simply sucks

          by ancientmath ·

          In reply to Your proposal ALSO leaves out some variables…

          I mean seriously, if they all sucked so damn bad as you say, why do you even bother? When Vista does release, why don’t you just skip it and stay in your probably (not “prolly”) stagnated hole and wallow in self pity?

          As for the versions themselves and all of this ranting…from who’s perspective are we really looking at here? the users? the admins? This “Doomed from the start?” scenario started actually with the service packs (NTSP1 worked, SP2 broke things, SP3 fixed them again, SP4 broke more things, SP5 fixed them again, etc) that went along NT server versions and the OP has lumped several versions together for the sake of convenience to rant some more. No content.

          As for one that really did grow up through the Windows versions (and launched Win95), I have at least a little more content and input to my own opinion…and it’s just that, an OPINION. I will lump it together as such:

          User Perspective —
          Dos 1.0 — we were all going to be rich
          Dos 2.0 — nobody became rich
          Dos 3.0 — now we realized who was going to be rich and it wasn’t us
          Dos 3.1 — at least it worked
          Dos 4.x — damn, it used to work
          Dos 5.0 — hey, new features!
          Dos 5.1 — hey, the new features actually work cool now!
          Dos 6.0 — no improvements
          Dos 6.1 — damn, they broke it
          Dos 6.22 — finally!
          Windows 1 & 2 (i missed these somehow, so I have no opinion)
          Windows 3.0 — sucked, yes, but it was better than BBS doors
          Windows 3.1 — improvement from the user perspective
          Windows 3.11 — networking? wow!
          Windows 95 — Finally!!!
          Windows 95a/b/c/d — wtf?!
          Windows 98 — win95e?
          Windows 98SE — ok
          Windows ME — yes, I skipped this too; the bounce was so hard it was easy to say “i won’t support this version, move up or down”
          Windows 2000 Pro — NTFS, finally some security for the user!
          Windows XP — finally some security for the home user!
          Windows XPSP1 — ok, at least they’re trying
          Windows XPSP2 — finally some real security…but alas, thanks to advanced genuinity, the pirates are still infecting the others thru email and Home Edition users are frustrated with home networking
          Vista — the viruses are still in email

          From the Admin Perspective —
          Windows NT 3.0 — at least there’s a GUI
          Windows NT 3.5 — GUI still sucks but at least it’s more stable and secure
          Windows NT4 — wtf?
          Windows NT4SP1 — fixes, good
          Windows NT4SP2 — dammit
          Windows NT4SP3 — fixes
          Windows NT4SP4 — dammit AND wtf?!
          Windows NT4SP5 — whew! finally some functionality and fixes
          Windows NT4SP6 — skipped, we’re learning
          Windows NT4SP6.1 — told ya
          Windows 2000 Server — at least I can control the user workstations better
          Windows 2000 Server SP1 thru SP4 — there’s a pattern here
          Windows 2003 Server — continue the pattern, SP1 fixes, SP2 breaks
          Longhorn (Ultimate) — well, at least it has everything despite being quirky
          Longhorn SP2 — this is the time to jump in

        • #3137923


          by sir_cheats_alot ·

          In reply to And your “proposal” just simply sucks

          …mostly…with a very small exception.

          i missed windows 1,2,3, win95 a,c,and d, as well as every DOS before 6 so i can’t really offer a opinion on them. i do have dos 6.22 somewhere around here. haven’t played with the other DOSs. windows 3.1 was ok.. not great but still ok
          Win95 hey, a taskbar..
          win95b cool, USB support( at this point it still ran pretty good.)
          Windos XP SP2 – great ATTEMPT at security. as far as actually achieving it.. they fell short…I find myself wondering; “when are they releasing sp3?” Lesson here? the only secure PC is one NOT connected to any network that happens to have internet access.
          they kinda shot themselves in the foot when they tried passing off WGA as a security update. many costumers left for linux because of it *raises his hand* Kubuntu and ubuntu are great for beginners by the way. WGA kinda stepped on my last nerve.

        • #3274788

          DOS 2.11 & 6.x

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to And your “proposal” just simply sucks

          2.11 was where I started at home. It was on a dual floppy disc PC-7000. It worked, … sometimes. Sun spots destroyed most of my documents – good thing I had backups. (Sun spots affected the CPU/DOS so it would write noise to the FAT.)
          I tried the 3.x series, but until I was using a HDD, it was totally unnecessary.
          I wrote in dBASE II 2.3b; 3; 3+; and ?-tested IV (the infamous summer of ’88). I produced bookkeeppiinngg programs and a few accounting programs (although Champion did a great job out of the box).
          When DOS 6.0 was released, I advised clients in several states to upgrade from 20mb HDD’s to 80mb, and switch from DOS 3.3 to 5. I cautioned them to back up all their data, and I strongly warned them not to use DOS 6.0.
          Without exception, their resellers installed DOS 6.0 and did not backup. In less than one week, all my programs and all their usable data was lo$t, truncated by DO$ malfunctions.

          I quit then and there, deciding I could not compete with Gates and his hordes. I have never regretted that day, nor do I ever intend to return to programming/consulting again.

          Those who think they like(d) anything from Redmond really never lived with real working DOS like C/PM or DEC/VAX. It’s good to read today’s posts from those who knew life back when one could think and produce – knowing that a well-written program would work reliably; not now when OS’es rampage through anything near them wreaking havoc and caring le$$, promi$ing a better product later. It’$ been too long to tru$t M$ ever again.
          To me Vi$ta i$ doomed becau$e those of us who knew and worked with quality will avoid M$, but those who are still ignorant – or $tupid will look forward to the next fia$co with great eagerne$$ and anticipation.

          …Been there, done better before.

        • #3218703

          I’ll drink to that!

          by kcmplex ·

          In reply to And your “proposal” just simply sucks

          Hey, not a bad list! I make a motion that this becomes the new list for discussion. Any posts regarding the original list be deleted by the MPU, and we start over.

    • #3275774

      You missed one Microsoft would like to forget..

      by beowulf_cam ·

      In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

      Remember Microsoft Bob (1995)? Bob was so bad that not only did it totally flop, Microsoft has erased all historical references to it… There are probably still people traumatised by it..

      • #3275768

        Bob ???

        by gfhavewala ·

        In reply to You missed one Microsoft would like to forget..

        Microsoft Bob???

        Now that’s news! Could you please enlighten?

        • #3275754

          Wow! Forgot about that one.

          by artistechnic ·

          In reply to Bob ???

          Hearing that name dredged up faint memory, and I did some looking. I did a quick search and found information on Microsoft BOB on Wikipedia

        • #3275751


          by edamlowe ·

          In reply to Wow! Forgot about that one.

          Yea i found that too, i also found a download, Im downloading just out of pure curiosity, was 98 really THAT bad?

          an erm, interesting website, on the “old” windows systems

        • #3275730

          Not NEARLY as bad as ME…

          by justinsvalois ·

          In reply to downloading

          What a money grubbing ploy to steal our money……

        • #3138049

          Sad, But true

          by claymann39 ·

          In reply to Wow! Forgot about that one.

          I have beta tested this product from when it was dubbed ‘Longhorn’. Yess, it truly sucks. The product bottomed out halfway thru the process, and was renamed ‘Vista’. The early builds were so bad they would not install correctly. Microsoft had to remove many promised features they could not deliver. I will never, ever buy this piece of Ka ka.

        • #3137984

          Gavarit pa russki?

          by pkrdk ·

          In reply to Sad, But true

          You know what “kaka” is in russian ?

        • #3274884

          Re: Gavarit pa russki

          by beowulf_cam ·

          In reply to Gavarit pa russki?

          Probably the same as ‘caca’ means in english…

        • #3274755


          by connectr ·

          In reply to Wow! Forgot about that one.

          Remeber there was one winner from Bob – does anyone remember who headed the project? The future Mrs. Gates.

          Gee I wonder if totally screwing up at M$ gets you noticed by the boss?

        • #3138180

          Link to MS BOB Info 8-)

          by beowulf_cam ·

          In reply to Bob ???

          Here is a link:

          A neighbour had BOB — a first I thought it was a joke. Well…it was, but not in way I initially thought!

        • #3137978

          Save yourself

          by g_bigham ·

          In reply to Bob ???

          Microsoft Bob, It was a great idea (somewhere way back in the early concept phase). It treated all users as children (very young children).
          Forget it!
          Let me put it this way; I have a pirated copy (on a CD somewhere, I think) , I could send it to you and cc Microsoft and MS would ignore us.

        • #3137929


          by tweten ·

          In reply to Save yourself

          “I have a pirated copy (on a CD somewhere, I think) , I could send it to you and cc Microsoft and MS would ignore us.”

          Thats Got to be the best line I’ve heard in a while
          thanks for the laugh

        • #3274928


          by kiltie ·

          In reply to Save yourself

          They certainly wouldn’t want the Press to be reminded of that OS, just prior to the release of Vista tee hee

          Hey! They might even pay you to destroy the copy???

          …. now there’s a thought, M$ paying us…..

          Nay…. never happen in a million years, the bean counters might even devise a way to put WGA on it, to raise revenue. (which they will be short of, after Vista’s launch)

        • #3274924


          by agent 77 ·

          In reply to LOL

          I’m quite sure that they will eventually get to the point they put WGA on every peice of code that ever came out of their people.

      • #3275722

        Did anyone else notice…

        by rknrlkid ·

        In reply to You missed one Microsoft would like to forget..

        that the dog that comes up in search on XPis the same dog that is in BOB?!

      • #3138234

        Thank you

        by lorddragondan ·

        In reply to You missed one Microsoft would like to forget..

        from my theropist for renewing our relationship. BOB kill BOB kill BOB…

      • #3138028

        animated help screen characters

        by andyilm ·

        In reply to You missed one Microsoft would like to forget..

        Thanks for the hilarious post.I think Bill’s wife is still influencing really helpful things in their OSs. Like the Merlin and Rover characters in XP.
        Vista is like Windows Me on steroids.

      • #3137986

        Another one down the drain

        by pkrdk ·

        In reply to You missed one Microsoft would like to forget..

        Remember ‘digital dashboard’ from late 90’ies? A place where you could create links to all kinds of information. At he time a homepage (which is was) was very common, and Digital Dashboard was yet another try of re-inventing the wheel.

        Not to mantion alle the vapourware annonced with W/2000, XP and Vista. Somebody ready with a list ?

      • #3137944

        You missed another one!

        by mreimers ·

        In reply to You missed one Microsoft would like to forget..

        Where is the venerable OS/2 in this line-up.

        This has been a stroll down memory lane for me! You young whippersnappers missed out on understanding the roots of coding and how the structure of the programs were created through trial and user feedback/error.

        But wow am I impressed with the talent out there now.

        • #3274809

          OS/2 was IBM not Microsoft

          by beowulf_cam ·

          In reply to You missed another one!

          We’re discussing the perfidity of Microsoft… OS/2 was an IBM product. We’ll have to discuss the perfidity of IBM and how they gave away the PC market to Microsoft another day!

        • #3274723

          Not really, it was both

          by kiltie ·

          In reply to OS/2 was IBM not Microsoft

          OS/2 developed as an offshoot from Windows 1.03 1986, released April 2nd 1987 as MS OS/2 1.0 (aka CP/DOS)
          Which then, itself, split up into the parallel development lines of NT and OS/2



          Then again, there was this announcement made:

          [b][i]”April 1987:
          Microsoft announces MicroSoft Operating System/2 (MS OS/2) a new personal computer operating system. It has been designed and developed specifically to harness the capabilities of personal computers based upon the Intel 80286 and 80386 microprocessors. This is the first product to be announced as a result of the Joint Development Agreement between IBM and Microsoft announced in August 1985. – Intended Replacement for MS-DOS”[/b][/i]


          EDIT: typo

        • #3274657


          by dwight-watt9 ·

          In reply to OS/2 was IBM not Microsoft

          OS/2 was developed as a joint project of IBM and Microsoft until they split on it and Microsoft took their part and came out with NT and IBM used their part and came out with OS/2.

        • #3274612

          Stolen not Given

          by neil.hewitt6 ·

          In reply to OS/2 was IBM not Microsoft

          My understanding was that the ‘divorce of Microsoft and IBM’ was based on we will take this one you can have this one, from an IBM perspective, given their relative positions at that time. I suspect Microsoft were economical with the truth regarding the relative merits of both op systems.
          Microsoft were also in the driving seat on both products, technologically software wise. Anyone knows that picking up someone elses code is a nightmare.
          Big Blue got the ‘short straw’, I am sure it still galls them.

      • #3274605

        VISTA RC2 Looks a LOT Better

        by johnugotmail ·

        In reply to You missed one Microsoft would like to forget..

        I think Redmond heard us Beta gripers and did some real work. RC2 works pretty good, including solving a lot of driver and network problems. I called Vista, Microsoft’s Edsel . . . actually I liked the Ford Edsel, but was too young to buy it. I think I will buy Vista in February.

        John Kansas

      • #3275060

        Bob’s NOT an OS, but thanks :)

        by mr l ·

        In reply to You missed one Microsoft would like to forget..

        It was a hilarious product launch and a hilarious overlay an OS. Thanks for bringing it up 🙂

        • #3274982


          by majikten ·

          In reply to Bob’s NOT an OS, but thanks :)

          I have a copy of BOB.
          As a laugh I dug it out and found out it will run perfectly on XPSP2
          Huge waste of my time, but it was cute.


        • #3276495
          Avatar photo

          [b]Insanity Alert![/b] :)

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to re:BOB

          You did What? Now I have this lovely long sleeved jacket for you to wear and a nice padded room for you to lie down in and relax till you feel much better and I’ll tell you when that is. 😀

          Actually MS Bob is the only thing that my local Black Hole has spat out and constantly refused to accept no matter how much I attempt to get rid of it it keeps turning up like a bad penny. 🙁


        • #3274298

          Time to start the queue

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to re:BOB

          Get your “Bob, the Pirated Edition” from this guy – c’mon, you know you want to give it to us!

          I wanna see WGA call Bob illegitimate, the little bastards.

          I can see history books and wikipedia now: “The day Bob took Bill down.”

          Can’t you just imagine it? All these little Bobs bunched together waiting in the P2P holding pattern – like the little squeezies in the rocket in “Toy Story”. The whole crowd raising their pathetic little morphed hands and crying out, “Daddy??? Don’t you know us, Daddy???” Brings a tear to the eye, like in Shirley Temple, “The Little Colonel”, “Daddy! Don’t you see me? Daddy???”

          … gotta go and get a change of clothes.

        • #3217169

          Oh you’re so demented – I like it :p the saddest thing about this

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Time to start the queue

          is that I didn’t think to say it.

        • #3276407

          Not an O/S

          by beowulf_cam ·

          In reply to Bob’s NOT an OS, but thanks :)

          Well… they were mentioning Windows 1, 2 and 3 which were not actual O/S either!

        • #3276386
          Avatar photo

          Well just to be picking Nits

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Not an O/S

          Windows 95 in all it’s forms wasn’t really an OS either it was just a shell loaded on top of DOS. For that matter even 98 was the same thing but at least with 98 they tried to hide the DOS underpinning it.

          I’ve still got one old 200 MMX here that boots to DOS and I can then chose 3.11 or 95 along with several other pure DOS applications.

          Actually when you really look at it Windows 3 whatever was just a pretty shell for DOS and it worked so much better if you didn’t actually use MS DOS. 🙂

          I was using DR DOS up until 98 hit the streets as it was just better than anything that MS could come up with and along with a Menu system that allowed 10 layers for 10 front end applications you had to make up things to use some of those available Layers for things like the good old XCOPY A: B: where A was a 5.25 and B was a 3.5 inch floppy wasn’t possible with MS DOS but was just an XCOPY command in DR DOS.

          With everything that is available now I still doubt if you could have used the entirety of a well designed Menu System running on DOS.

          And then those shareware Programs that where available all those years ago sure they where cheap and crappy but they worked without many problems, now I’m forced to use Access to print up address labels and every so often it will just spit out a blank label page for no better reason that it feels like it. I also love the way that modern printers will still not print the bottom label row on these new applications with much better paper handling and print speed.

          What was acceptable with a cheap Dot Matrix way back when still happens on a $40.000.00 + photocopier with a RJ45 interface that can double as a network printer/scanner but it still looks the same as that $150.00 Dot Matrix did all those years ago. Running that $15.00 share ware program that still works better than the MS offering that about 10 times the cost today.


    • #3275740

      This brought back memories

      by joy64 ·

      In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

      I can’t speak for all these systems because there were years I would skip due to so much bad news about the “new” OS system. I so clearly remember Windows 3.0 being touted as the new best system, installing it, formatting the disk and going back to DOS 5.0. It took me a while after that to trust Microsoft again.

    • #3275739

      In Total Agreement

      by johnny bee ·

      In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

      The only real improvement I’ve been able to glean from Vista is the Glass interface – which, quite frankly, I find annoying once I got passed the “isn’t that nice” phase. Dressing up Windows XP could have been done using service or plus paks. Unless I’ve missed something, there really hasn’t been much improvement to the security features or stability of the OS. So, unless some earth-shattering revelation comes from the release of Vista – I’ll be leaving it alone for a while.

      • #3275726

        I’m with you….

        by mgp2 ·

        In reply to In Total Agreement

        With all the problems they’re having with delayed release, along with not allowing the security software vendors access to the kernel (like all of a sudden Microsloth is synonymoun with security), and all the other little problems that won’t be fixed (or even addressed) prior to RTM, I’m content to wait until Service Pack 1 comes about. On a brighter note, even with their new “Upgrade from XP to Vista” coupon program for PCs purchased between yesterday and March 15, OEMs are probably going to cut their prices considerably to convince people to buy a PC before Xmas instead of waiting for the release. And I’ll be taking advantage of that to pick up a new system on the cheap.

    • #3275698

      my opinion

      by norehca ·

      In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

      Vista is nothing but a beautiful interface and several dozen processes gaurenteed to rape your computer. The interface is beautiful, ill give you that much. I have run several demos on vista, most of which have crashed on me (im running an AMD athlon 64 3700+ 1GB RAM radeon 9600 XT overclocked) and the others with decent framerates…if you want to play long enough for vista to “get used” to the game. it simply starts out almost crashing, and eventually smooths out. Not my idea of a good gaming experience. as far as compatibilty goes, vista x64 still has the same problems as windows XP x64. No drivers for some hardware. Bottom line, performace sucks, looks neat, aweful new networking setup, dont count on it.

    • #3275688

      I like your thinking.

      by jgmsys9 ·

      In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

      Interesting line of thought. I’d never thought to look to see if a pattern of behavior was emerging in Windows releases. I have played around with Vista Beta 2 and RC1, and I can tell you that in my experience, Vista is little more than eye candy with annoyances. In Vista, the IP protocol stack has been rewritten, and in my opinion is causing major problems in getting to certain web sites via the browser in RC1. I can trace the route to those sites, but for some reason IE7 has issues with them and will just time out. The worst case of this is that the very site through which to report bugs appears inaccessible for some reason. Conspiracy?

      I’m sticking with XP and Linux. In fact, I can hardly wait to download and install Fedora Core 6.

      • #3138078

        RC1 is a “Candidate”

        by ancientmath ·

        In reply to I like your thinking.

        Not a “release”…don’t compare released products with beta copies.

    • #3138257

      Vista Doom

      by gsquared ·

      In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

      I’ve used Vista Beta 2, RC1 and RC2, and I like the interface and the OS.

      Use-wise, it’s not the huge change MS would like it to be. I still use it the same way, still put my most common programs on the Quick Start bar, etc. But it does have some convenience factors I like. The ability to type in the names of control panel apps in the search bar on the start menu is convenient. The built in search is fast and useful. I like the way the new start menu works.

      Security-wise, I’m happier with Vista than with prior versions of Windows. IE 7 on Vista is more secure than IE 6/7 on XP. It’s still not completely secure, but nothing is. I’ve tested a few things (gone to pages that download spyware, etc.) and the default settings have worked to secure the computer. So long as I don’t do really stupid stuff (like allow pages to install code on the computer by typing in an admin password), it should be okay.

      Truly, I see it as an incremental improvement over XP. But I do see it as a worthwhile improvement.

      As for the new graphics, they’re nice, but I don’t buy an OS for the glossy graphics.

    • #3138212

      Vista Doomed From The Start?

      by brotherjim019 ·

      In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

      Having used all those operating systems, I must admit I will not be using Vista immediately, for an absolute certainty! That which is being touted reasons for buying/upgrading to Vista, has mostly to do with “aesthetics,” which I am not adverse to per se, for I do love beautiful things, but that is found mostly in nature! I can go out for a weekend with a couple of camera bodies, and THERE find my beauty, not have to pay for beauty in an OS, but rather pay for truly needful changes and additions that make the OS worth all our dollars.

      As well, MS has usually done their best testing from those who buy at the start, and I feel few will want to be among those who purchase only to be testers for things missing, to find flaws, being of help in improving those things. If I go to Vista, it will be a few years after I have seen the patching process isn’t needed anymore, and the OS is absolutely rock solid.

      • #3274704

        Too much being talked abour Vista

        by sdatta ·

        In reply to Vista Doomed From The Start?

        If you read these reports, one has to agree that at least in the beginning Vista is not a must buy. I will prefer wait and watch and carry on with my older version of Windows.
        An user out side US

    • #3138186

      Vista doomed? I don’t think so

      by michael l hereid sr ·

      In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

      I’m using Vista X64 Ultimate RC2-it is working with no problems-highly stable in fact it has not stopped working at all. My computer runs 24/7.
      I prefer VISTA over XP.
      Michael L Hereid Sr

      • #3137993


        by rsrusa ·

        In reply to Vista doomed? I don’t think so

        What does vista really have that isn’t already in xp, outside of alot of overhead?

        • #3274830

          Why? Well running 32 bit Ultimate/Premium Home

          by michael l hereid sr ·

          In reply to Why?

          It actually uses less memory than XP plus it uses it more efficently. What else is new-better security(esp for people who don’nt or don’t want to know better)when directx 10 cards become availible(even more realistic game play)-better user experiance.
          Sure there will be a period of when people will have to learn the OS, but it has been that way for years every time there isa new OS.

      • #3274921

        My Vista Experience

        by cbrown ·

        In reply to Vista doomed? I don’t think so

        Running 32bit Vista Ultimate RC2. Besides lack of driver support from 3rd party hardware, no problems. Preferred to XP.

        • #3274661

          Running Build 5744

          by wolf13 ·

          In reply to My Vista Experience

          I have had a few problems with the RC2 Build but prefer it to XP.

          I find that as with all other OS there are some bugs involved, but for me, that’s great.

          I am the child that tore apart the household appliances and electronics to see what makes them tick.

          If they ever make the perfect OS that is self maintaining that will heal itself of any critical error I will truly be saddened, for would not our jobs then be threatened, The perfect OS would doom us to become like the dinosaurs.

          I like to tinker and if it is not perfect so much the better.

          The word for today is “Job Security”

        • #3274625

          So what I gather from this is…

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to Running Build 5744

          Vista is a boon to those who intend to tinker, but a bust for those of us who want to use a computer as a tool and not a toy.

          I’m sure iMac will always have something for tinker-ers, but in a work environment, … say construction, the guy who makes money by driving nails into pieces of wood is not going to be satisfied with a hammer that falls off every xth time, or splits for no reason, or moves up and down the handle with little or no control (like mouse movements on Macs) or must be replaced after the “life/support” for it has been adjusted to expire, or all of a sudden flashes an LED indicating that the manufacturer no longer considers it to be genuine.

          Sound familiar? To non-tinker-ers, it’s frustrating. The PC is meant to be a tool, not a toy.

          Perhaps the manufacturers should concentrate on splitting into two distinct camps: toys/games and tools/computers. The only reason I can arrive at for M$ making the combinations is to blur the applications/quality so as to dodge complaints from all those who are dissatisfied.

          The worse M$ grows, the happier you may be, but the more damage is done to business and productivity.

          Not putting you down, but acknowledging the only “happy campers” out there with M$.

        • #3275268
          Avatar photo

          Well since you like to tinker

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Running Build 5744

          And consider this as [b]Job Security[/b] do I have some customers for you!

          They buy Million $ + piece of Plant and [b]Expect it to WORK[/b] they expect the same thing from the computers that they have now found that they simply must have to stay in business to work first time every time no matter what. It doesn’t matter that they left it turned on and packed it away and the battery has gone flat it’s just got to work when they pull their NB out of the bag and God help you if it doesn’t!

          You have 2 chances with them but educmation isn’t one of them you can either throw yourself on the ground begging for mercy or stand up and take the beating [b]Like a Man![/b] That will of course not help the entire situation but at least they will respect you and ask you to supply them with another machine after a 40 tom excavator has terminated the other one after crushing it into the ground with it’s tracks and then pounding the bucket into the remains just to vent their frustration after they have hospitalised their tech. And that is only because they where out of Transmission range in a Black Spot for their Broadband WiFi connection.

          It’s fun working in an air conditioned office where people bow down to you nd you think that you have [b]Job Security[/b] but in the real world it’s better if it works first time every time and then you can schedule Routine maintenance as required at a higher rate and earn far more money with less frustration involved when you fix something today that you know you’ll be fixing next week for no better reason that it’s going to break again without explanation.

          If you are like me and [b]Take Pride in your Work[/b] Windows is the [b]Pits[/b] to work with as there is no way known that you can offer any form of guarantee on the working of the system unless it’s not turned on and the power lead is thrown out even then it will probably be broken but the end user will not know about it. 😀


        • #3275238

          Way to go, Col!

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to Well since you like to tinker

          That’s why, in 1993, when DOS 6.0 truncated all my work and all my clients’ data coast to coast – – – in one week, I quit. I knew I could never live in the same universe as M$, so I picked up a pair of scissors and began cutting chickens for TV dinners.
          Now I work as an editor; my superiors feared me, thinking I wanted their jobs. Ha! I work 8 months a year; I get slightly more than minimum wage, but I can go home and forget the work, I have 3-4 months of reliable “lay-off” time to live the life I honestly have, now that I have ceased programming.

          Fool that I am, I bought yet another HP in 2001 and fooled with ME – – – got it to work, … soso.
          Now I have that, an old Toshiba Satellite Pro 410CDT (printer hub), another Toshiba laptop (98SE), a Sony E-machine (XP) and this Acer Aspire 3000. Guess I didn’t learn my lesson yet, huh? Now I’m here bellyaching because I want to produce videos for a hobby and must fight M$ for every frame. What a life!

        • #3275122
          Avatar photo

          Well it could be worse

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Way to go, Col!

          I gave up punching code when I ran into one of the first CS graduates from Uni here who insisted on writing a fairly small subroutine in basic when we where using Boolean for everything. He came back with a piece of code and a very small piece that was supposed to integrate with the entire thing and fit onto a 64K EPROM. [i]Thank God Big Blue had me in Purgatory for fixing their mainframes which is what they employed me to do or I would honestly have killed the guy.[/i] When I pointed out the obvious I was told that the system needed redesigning and it wasn’t his problem.

          That was back in the days when you had to be an Electronic Engineer to work with computers and because I repaired some power boards I was punished. Apparently it wasn’t considered as a Good Thing to have the State Service Manager doing such things when they could send the boards away for about 6 months and leave the customers with massively reduced computing power. So as punishment they gave me the crummiest job available at one of the subsidiaries programing EPROM’S for race cars. The stupid Accountant didn’t realise that I was a Mechanical Engineer first and for most who had originally built race cars so it wasn’t any real punishment to me and I even got treated as a Special guest at any of the Race Teams on the weekend meetings. It’s a Hard Life But Some One Has to do it. 😀

          They figured that I could maybe stick it out for 3 months but after 6 months they sent my boss up to see just what it was that I was doing. [b]Enjoying Myself way too much for his liking.[/b] :^0

          I finally relented after a few days and asked him what my qualifications where and he went pale and realised that there was no way known that I was ever willingly going back to being the State Service Manager of the Mainframe section. Even when they sent me all the deadbeats it didn’t faze me in the slightest as I just ignored them totally and gave them all useless work to do. Naturally none of them wanted to come out to race meetings and even when they had to attend during working hours they beat a hasty retreat from the track come 5.00 pm. The parties where just starting by then so they never actually got to meet any of the important people and more importantly I wasn’t paying for drinks. 😀

          I could only keep the punishment detail going for about 2 years and then when I was read the Riot Act I quit and took a job with one of the race teams, boy did that go down well with the competition and more importantly my old boss who had to answer why I wouldn’t return to the Main Business activity. I actually think that the accountant in question got demoted for his actions but if that happened it will have been the only time that I got one over on the Bean Counters. 🙁

          I set up this business to be semiretired spend a couple of days a week working on small business computers and then have time to spend with my play toys. It was a nice idea and did last 12 hours till I was approached by most of my previous staff asking for a job and bringing along a list of customers way too long to be able to say no to.

          And then there are the customers who are an interesting bunch one in particular after abusing me to hell and back insists that everywhere that he moves I do all their work I can’t even bring in one of the staff to help me when required as I’m the only one who can be trusted. At the last place he moved to the very first day that I was there within the first 2 hours he had parked a [b]Bloody Great Big Excavator[/b] on top of the existing computer and he just walked into the bosses office and asked could I fix his computer as it was no longer working. I used the standard answer of [b]Yes Certainly[/b] and when I got into his office there was no computer in sight just the keyboard with a cup of coffee upside down on it and some excuse that it had peeved him off so much that he had thrown it out the window. So I went looking and he was hanging out the window saying warmer/colder as I looked for the computer. I naturally didn’t think to look under the tracks of any of the plant that was up for sale in the yard but when I saw some of the remains hanging out from under the left hand track of the biggest excavator in the yard I just burst out laughing and I had to leave the place as I couldn’t keep a straight face after that incident. Hardly a good way to impress a new customer rolling round in fits of laughter because one of their computers has been murdered by a crazy salesperson. :^0

          When I got home from there I had an order for a replacement computer to deliver back there the next day which just cracked my up all over again. It’s probably not a good idea laughing when you see things like that particularly with a new customer but I couldn’t help myself after all I had watched the same guy demolish a brand new Range Rover for far less of a reason and it had to be taken away on 3 tow trucks. I’m not quite sure of what the cop who pulled him up for the tail lights not working thought about the whole thing but as there where no light bulbs or wiring to those lights he accidentally destroyed it with another excavator in front of a Political Party who had shown up for the ground breaking and the cop who had pulled him up for the nonworking tail lights. As the Cop had insisted that the car was Unroadworthy he made it that way in no uncertain terms but originally he made it look so accidental that there where people driving for cover and then after pounding the remains into the ground he asked the Cop in question was it Roadworthy Now?.

          At the beginning he didn’t even touch the excavator he just parked the car where he was told to and the excavator operator had the unit slewed with the bucket just off the ground. Stopped it for some display purposes and wasn’t allowed to bury the bucket in the ground so after about 30 minutes it slowly straightened up but the Range Rover was in the way and after the bucket & Boom had torn it into 3 pieces he just had to demonstrate just how effective the unit actually was by pounding the remains into the ground. I couldn’t watch and had to turn away as I would have chocked from laughing so hard but the look on the Politicians faces and the Overseas Suppliers of this equipment was priceless.

          When he got out he had the teeth buried in the ground with the bottom of the bucket facing the audience and his only words where Didn’t even take any paint off did I? Though to be fair there where streaks of dark green Range Rover paint on the bottom of the bucket. 😀

          Now that he’s moved overseas I have a much quieter life and I can normally not burst out laughing at some of his actions. :p


        • #3274967

          … And I thought I had stories!

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to Well it could be worse

          I stand amazed! You are the GrandDaddy of yarnspinners!

          But, as the plaque read in my neighbor’s patio: “He who can boast without lying; Let Him Boast”. I find nothing unbelievable in your tales. Fortunately, however, it sends my darker memories deeper into hiding, so I have nothing to offer in responose, … except praise – couldn’t top that one anyway!

        • #3276472
          Avatar photo

          OH come on now that isn’t even an old one.

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Well it could be worse

          That one only happened a few years ago if you want something really funny, Remember the Halon Fire Suppression Systems?

          Well here at the local Uni I had to sign off on an installation for the Mainframe building and everything looked perfect except that they had no outside O2 supply for anyone trapped inside if there was a fire. Apparently they had run over budget and couldn’t afford the O2 bottles on the outside but they did place some O2 Hand Held units inside the building that where good for about 10 minutes max. The only trouble was that the fire Station was 15 minutes away and the only way to unlock the only escape to the outside world was quite rightly on the outside. I naturally enough refused to sign off on the safety of the place as if anything had of happened I would have been the one responsible for the deaths and while Halon is excellent for putting out fires it’s not overly good for the humans inside the building for some strange reason. They had everything run but just no O2 Bottles outside feeding the inside to keep any poor SOD’s inside alive till they could be released.

          Well the Government Officers where not overly happy when I refused to sign the Safety Certificate and went straight to my Boss who passed the buck back to me so they finally gave in and placed about 15 O2 bottles in the rack outside and I didn’t have a problem with singing off on the complete installation.

          However a few months latter when I returned for some routine maintenance work I noticed that all the O2 bottles had disappeared and I saw red over the entire thing as knowing my luck I would be one of the ones stuck inside and die because of some stupid penny pinching. So with my master key I turned off the Halon went inside and with the majority of the bureaucrats in attendance triggered the fire alarm. The place locked down exactly as it should have and there was panic in the room by the bureaucrats who where running around taking all the portable O2 units off the workers in a vain attempt to save their lives.

          I just sat on a bench and lit a cigarette and when they finally realised that they had a problem and this lunatic Tech was smoking in the room they asked what was going to happen? My answer was easy [b]We Are Gong to Die[/b] as there is no External O2 supply in here for the people working here and the fire brigade is at least 10 minutes away now and you have already exhausted 50% of what little O2 you have left before the Halon has even started. Well you should have seen the look of total panic involved then and they insisted that there must be a way out so they could stay alive and much more importantly why was I smoking in there? Of course me holding up the master key and telling them that the lock was outside didn’t help much. 😀

          I just said well I accept that I’m about to die so I’m going to at least enjoy myself instead of running around like the fools who created this mess.

          As the Fire Brigade knew it was a test they didn’t bother to rush there and I just had to love the horrified looks on their faces and the constant scanning for the Halon to start descending from the ceiling. Anyway 20 minutes latter the Fire Brigade opened the building and let us out & I signed a Certificate that the building was unsafe and no work could be performed till it was up to spec.

          I’ve never seen a bunch of Government Employees move so fast they had new O2 bottles in place within 30 minutes and they where even regularly checked and replaced as necessary. Thinking back I should have had the Halon turned on just a little bit as I’m sure that the People concerned would have wet themselves in an attempt to get out.

          I could never understand that one though it’s not as if there was no plumbing for the O2 in the place but to skimp on a couple of O2 Bottles to save some money at the expense of the lives of the people inside the building was beyond belief. I actually found piratical demonstrations like that to be very effective in getting the right things done. But I had already warned the staff working in there and it was only the Bureaucrats who had made the decisions to remove the O2 that went into a panic. :^0

          Needless to say I no longer do any Government work except for 1 section that I’m trying to dump at the first opportunity. With a bit of luck that will be when they adopt Vista just after it’s released. 😀

          Col ]:)

        • #3276385

          Hey Col, I give a guarantee on all the Windows work I do

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Well since you like to tinker

          I guarantee that it’ll work for exactly 20 nanoseconds after I lift my hands from the keyboard. I make the client check, and confirm it’s working to spec before I leave the room, and that’s it. I fixed the problem, anything now is their problem, or new work.

        • #3276382
          Avatar photo

          But to be honest it’s hardly for fulling work is it?

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Hey Col, I give a guarantee on all the Windows work I do

          Sure you can be sure that you have a guaranteed income every week because you just know that it’s going to break for no reason and you’ll spend hours fixing up the mess. But honestly it’s can not be called satisfying work can it.

          I know when I walk into a movie place here running SUSE and doing all their CG on it that when I fix something it’s going to stay fixed I will not get to the car and be called back to fix what I’ve just wasted several hours to do 20 nanoseconds ago.

          My current favourite is one with IE6 at one domestic client place on just 1 Web Page they have some how managed to make the entire page letters about 3 inches high. I’m dammed if I know what they have done to get the display like this on just 1 Web Site and to be quite honest I really can not be bothered looking or at least trying to understand what or how they managed to perform this. Originally on the phone about 6 months ago I just told him to load FF and he’s never used IE since except for Windows Updates. I suppose I really should try to find out what they have done but honestly it’s not worth the time & effort wasted to fix a minor problem that is no longer being used.


    • #3138173

      Chocolate and Vanilla

      by bookkeeper ·

      In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

      First all I’am not sure if it is doomed from the start or not but that is a pretty good theory about MS,s software. One thing i know for sure it’s just a matter of preference more then anything else, as to which one we choose. I say try them all it’s fun somtimes. 😉

    • #3138115

      Will Vista Improve Productivity in the Work Place?

      by zczc23119 ·

      In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

      We all know that the recommended amount of RAM for VISTA is 1 GB and to appreciate the new graphics we will all need new video card PCIE.

      After a company spends big dollars on upgrading their hardware comes the big dollars of paying for the software.

      The justification for spending all this money to upgrade to VISTA must come with a big advantage and that comes down to increasing productivity in the work place.

      Don’t you just love the flood of PC vendors offering PC’s at a small cost that wont run VISTA either being short of RAM or now having enough power being not built with PCIE graphics cards.

      With every version of O/S M$ has produced there is a total disregard for how much the Hardware will cost to run the new version.

      This don’t care attitude is reflected in meeting where M$ basically tells Hardware Manufacturers what they need to build to support the new O/S

      In my life time I have seen Windows happy to run on 16MB of RAM with a 1MB video card and a hard disk with no more than an outrageous
      1 GB of RAM.

      Certainly the trade off in upgrading hardware means that we can run products like Windows 2000 with speed and increase efficiency in the workplace.

      The question is for most companies of medium to large is

      What productivity will the outlay cost increase our business efficiency?

      If you are purchasing a O/S just for the eye Kandy rather than functionality, you are probably a home user who can indulge in 1 or 2 PC with a new O/S

      If you CEO asks you administrators to cost the new hardware and software cost and justify it against productivity gains – which any IT manager must explore then good luck to you.

      Just a few thoughts

      1. It there a limit less amount of RAM you are prepared to install in each PC
      2. Is there a limit less amount of hard disk you are prepared to install.
      3. Is there a limit less amount of PCIE video cards you are prepared to upgrade to and what amount of RAM on those cards are you prepared to install.

      I do realise that you don’t get new functionality for nothing, however there must come a time where business draws the line.

      I would love to see a new O/S released that improves productivity without needing to upgrade all your hardware. A new O/S that is safer, faster and manages memory far better and guarantees Disk writes and reads to the HDD are always verified and are fault tolerant the way a Main Frame and servers guarantee this buy the use of Hotfix, Turbo FAT tables and limited use of the disk for virtual RAM so the HDD is free just to read and write to supply files for the O/S and applications.

      • #3138042

        Long Way Round but Excellent Point. . .

        by nobby57 ·

        In reply to Will Vista Improve Productivity in the Work Place?


        Agree 200% with your last paragraph — real progress for an OS might better be measured in terms of security, speed, and better use of the hardware. Get the idea, Redmond?

        Or is it really a conspiracy to spur hardware sales, after all. . .


      • #3138016

        There is such a thing….

        by darksunmoon ·

        In reply to Will Vista Improve Productivity in the Work Place?

        Have you tried Linux? LOL

        Sure, it’s not from Microsoft, but it’s a decent OS, not to expensive and it doesn’t take an expensive hard core gaming machine to run it…

        • #3274797

          Sure Have

          by zczc23119 ·

          In reply to There is such a thing….

          I run SUSE Linux 10.1 and soon 10.2 right now!

        • #3215815


          by dumbterminal ·

          In reply to There is such a thing….

          What is this Linux you speak of? I’ve never heard of it, and the subject of it never comes up billions of times during a MS discussion.
          Sarcasm – 1
          Originallity – 0

        • #3218196
          Avatar photo

          Back in the old days of Main Frames

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Linux?

          We used to run Dumb Terminals on Unix but with all the improvements that have been brought about by Linux in the Server field and the Business Model like SUSE we now run all those same [b]Dumb Terminals[/b] or as they are now known Thin Clients on Linux because it works and is far more scalable that any Windows product could hope to ever be.

          Lets face facts with the medium sized Blades of say 2,000 CPU’s there currently isn’t a single Windows OS capable of running one of those things and use more than 4 of the CPU’s is there?


        • #3139560

          God! Your as old as I am

          by zczc23119 ·

          In reply to Back in the old days of Main Frames

          I started out being one of the technical shift staff maintaining a number of Collins DCP Front End – we had a few more users – around 5,000 all over the world – all Dumb terminals and about 2000 printers of different types all running at a comms rate of a whopping 9600bps.

          And if the response time got greater than 50 milliseconds on priority 1 sets – heads rolled and you were asked to explain.

          And if after testing your new changes to the application software and you put it on-line and you got 1 error dump there was a big please explain to have to offer.

          Dumps off-line were expected, but on-line – you could feel the tension in the air.

          Your as old as me I think. but I don’t think I will be here in 2038? I think from memory.

        • #3139521
          Avatar photo

          May Be as I will be in my mid 80’s by then. :p

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to God! Your as old as I am

          Hopefully I will not be working IT though. 🙂

          However when I setup this business it was supposed to be semiretired for me 15 odd years ago and I got that for the first 12 hours or so and then every one of my previous staff approached me for a job which I really didn’t want to do. 🙁

          I was really looking forward to working maybe 2 days a week with a bit of remote work thrown in for good measure and then having time for my [b]Play toys[/b] Unfortunately that didn’t happen and if my father is anything to go by he eventually retired at 86 so things don’t look that great for me do they? :_|

          But then of course when he was 65 his last child was born so hopefully I’ll not suffer the same fate. Actually I know that I can’t suffer the same fate as I’ve had the local Vet in and had the wife Spaded on the kitchen table and then we got drunk together. :^0

          Col ]:)

        • #3139438

          tat’s bad :0

          by dawgit ·

          In reply to May Be as I will be in my mid 80’s by then. :p

          That ones real bad. (but funny B-) )
          You’re probably going to get a penenty kick for that one. :_|
          (actually just the opposit happened to me. But, it serves the same. I wouldn’t want any of my young ones to have to play with my Grand kids)

        • #3139402
          Avatar photo

          Well what can I say

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to May Be as I will be in my mid 80’s by then. :p

          My little sister went down to visit her Big Brother in Cantberra and was taken out by one of his sons to be shown around the town. All of his mates where asking him who the Hot New Chick that he was dragging around was. Of course none of them believed him when he insisted that it was his Auntie who was 3 years younger than him. 😀

          Actually thinking about it Dad was 52 years old when I was born so I suppose his age wasn’t such a big deal. He used to be driven nuts with the way that I handled Uni with a total disregard for the courses and he was horrified when I got such high marks at the exams. He could never understand how I could do it without appearing to do any work. 🙂

          Just don’t mention the bit about the Vet to the wife or I’ll be in real trouble. :^0

          Col ]:)

        • #3202439

          Not a peep…

          by dawgit ·

          In reply to May Be as I will be in my mid 80’s by then. :p

          Not from me.
          I saw nothing B-)

      • #3137973

        Business driven contra supplier driven

        by pkrdk ·

        In reply to Will Vista Improve Productivity in the Work Place?

        IT is no different from shop floor equipment. Will the new lathe, welding automat, cutting machine, whatever improve the bottonline ? Will the new IT system improve the bottom line ?

        Time to get business-like on the PC’s. Maybe even drop them in favour of thin clients ?

        • #3216046

          20 years ago I put together my first network and…

          by zczc23119 ·

          In reply to Business driven contra supplier driven

          25 years ago I setup my first Business Network. There were 60 odd PC’s without HDD or Floppy drives and each had 1 MB of RAM and 512K on Video Card. The PC’s were aa new batch of 80386 systems.

          We had 2 Novell NetWare File Servers 2.15 revC. 1 That ran the accounting department of 6 PC’s and the rest were all run totally from a 80486 NetWare File Server ? and that was all it did ? serve files to every PC on the Network and the Workstations did all the processing.

          We ran Word Perfect Office comprising of Word Perfect 5.1, Data Perfect (a mirror of Lotus 123) and Dataflex as the data base and WordPefect’s email client that evolved into Groupwise. – We had a MHS gateway and were able to email all our branch offices and connect to various clients. We had another SNA gateway to access our Main Frame site in the UK/USA/Asia and have the workstations run a 3270 Terminal emulator.

          The topology was Ethernet 10mbps thin/thick coax.

          Despite the lack of resources the PC’s ran faster than a current Windows XP with a P4 HT and 512MB of RAM.

          The File Server did as it was suppose to do ? serve all the files quickly.
          The Workstations did what they were suppose to do ? Process the files.

          As I said the whole system was faster than most of today’s Network running windows. It was fast effective and productive.

          What you could NOT do was have a GUI interface to run on top.

          We all knew how to use the software and as functionality was concerned there is little we did not have then as we have now.

          What we did not have the ability to do

          1.Spend the day doing no work and marvel at the eye Kandy
          2.Do our personal banking
          3.Email all our friends
          4.Access to the internet
          5.Have high powered graphics on our screens
          6.Limited to the amount of Postscript fonts loaded on the system.
          7.We did not worry about security as we ran secure comms like SNA and no one can hack secure comms like of SNA/SDLC/ALC.

          How far have we come and at what cost. IF we all did not take up a GUI and all still had text and developed multi tasking just using different text views on our PC’s we could still have the internet, run secure comms and forget hacking/security issues.

          It would just not look pretty ? How much has looking pretty cost us. Perhaps we would have developed graphics without the need for a total GUI to run every keystroke we made.

    • #3138088


      by .. kash .. ·

      In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

      i wouldnt call XP that good.. 2000 was no doubt pretty good but in my opinion, XP could’ve been better.. so in that case, Vista should be better.. and u’ve grouped NT n 98 together as well.. keep em seperate n u’r pattern goes out the window 😛

    • #3138087

      Pattern? I think not. Doomed? Maybe.

      by philthee ·

      In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

      For a start, how on earth can you put NT and 98 together as “NT/98” – they’re based on totally different kernels and one (NT) was infinitely more stable than the other.
      As for Windows Me, I actually found it the most stable of the MS “consumer” OS’s until XP came along.
      If anything, Vista is doomed because of the restrictions (think licensing, DRM, and so on) it’s going to place on the end user.
      Sorry Microsoft, I’ll keep my XP. You haven’t given me a good enough reason to upgrade.

      • #3138082

        i agree..

        by .. kash .. ·

        In reply to Pattern? I think not. Doomed? Maybe.

        Microsoft’s thinking that its pretty smart by inserting these restrictions into Vista. Most of the people I’ve talked to dont want to upgrade just because of these licensing issues.
        Personally, I’d rather not pay so much for cutting my arms n legs off with Vista. XP is a far better choice.

        • #3274782

          Lesser of the two evils???

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to i agree..

          I’m in the minority. I prefer ME over 9.x. I upgraded to XP only for NTFS to use my larger HDD’s, but have decided to drop back to 120/160gb instead of super large – harder to back up.
          What gets me is that XP is so bad that Vi$ta wa$ con$idered the nece$$ary $tep to fix XP.
          Most people I know are $o di$$ati$fied with XP, and, con$idering the failure rate of all M$ pa$t performance, there are few intere$ted in any more from M$.

          I just find it difficult to $ay: “XP i$ a better choice”.

        • #3276384

          MS use a well know marketing strategy

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Lesser of the two evils???

          it was made famous by the Nazi Gestapo – they used to torture people and say ‘Tell us what we want to know, and you won’t have to watch us do this to your wife and children.’ People take the lesser of two evils. MS keep offering them the lesser of two evil, rubbish or rubbish that looks nice.

          OK, as far as stability and doing what it was designed to do, Win 98SE was the best thing I’ve seen MS put out as a full Windows OS. However, they never gave it the capability to handle full 32 bit, any 64 bit, and no drivers for the modern hardware. Thus you’re limited to older equipment if you use Win 98.

          With XP, fairly stable until SP2 and WGA, you can sue the modern hardware, and high encryption, and larger storage medium. That’s why a lot of people see it as better.

        • #3215810

          DE, Your unadulterated hatred for MS

          by dumbterminal ·

          In reply to MS use a well know marketing strategy

          is just wearing a bit thin. Older HW for 98?
          You’ve never downloaded a driver?
          SP2 less stable than SP1?
          Nazi Gestapo?

          Did Bill Gates personally beat your ass in high school? I mean, really, some people seem to get physically riled up when discussing Windows. I have trouble hating someone with such fervor that I have never met.

          All OSs have thier good and bad.
          MS never killed anyones family.
          Please people, it is just an OS

          Ernest, sorry that I singled you out, but this post relates to several others also.
          Hope you’re not offended, because I do respect you as a member and your posts(other than anything MS related 😉 )

        • #3218814

          Over the years I’ve downloaded heaps of drivers, try getting

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to DE, Your unadulterated hatred for MS

          a Win 98 driver for a new HP printer, or the any of the other latest peripherals. Most companies don’t make them. Try finding Win 98 drivers for the built in 64 bit hardware on a motherboard.

          I’ve been using MS software for nearly 20 years, and a lot of where the industry is today is due to the changes that Bill Gates caused in the late 1980s and early 1990s – but something changed with Win 95, and they’ve been going downhill since.

          For the last 10 years I’ve had exposure to Linux. Unix and Mac – had to use them in the work place – no serious secure gateway uses Windows for their critical protection hardware.

          I’ve used Win 98SE extensively at home, and went to Win 2K, then Win XP. But this year, I’ve had it with MS and their ‘fook the client’ attitude. Three legal copies of XP 32 bit version, and a legal 64 bit version – bought direct from MS; all totally screwed over because I made the mistake of trusting MS and loading SP2 with WGA.

          WGA works great if you have broadband and leave auto updates on. Turn auto updates off, don’t run any updates for several weeks, and the system is declared a pirate by MS. Do they fix their database when you ring up and get a new code. Nope. After losing many hours of work and spending many days rebuilding systems because of WGA – unpaid work, my own gear. I gave it the toss and seriously tried various Linux installs, settling on SimplyMEPIS 6. Easier to use than XP, better security, and I have more control of MY computer.

          As to MS having killed people, I wonder. I used to work in the Dept of Defence and a lot of the equipment software used to run on MS Windows, some years back, they started moving off MS for mission critical apps.

          I don’t know if it’s true, but one story I heard was that the fault in the tracking system in the Patriot missiles was due to a calculation error in the MS OS that the system ran on. I’d be surprised if that was the case, I’d expected that system to be all special built from scratch.

          SP2 causes more problems than SP1 because it insists on loading WGA, a most intrusive piece of rubbish that can trash your system.

          Vista is NOT an Operating System, but a major Application with a minimal operating System built in. This approach is what makes it bad, and has the need for all the extra hardware.

          I used to be a strong MS supporter, but WGA has costs me time and work, because it trashed my system when I needed it, I lost out on some contracts. I can’t afford that sort of behaviour, no one can. But the MS attitude is, direct from their senior staff in the help room “Sorry sir, but that’s your problem, you should have broadband and leave auto updates on, so it can do its job. If you’re to cheap to pay for broadband, you have to live with the consequences.” I’d love to have broadband, it’s just not available in this area yet, but MS don’t care. XP worked perfectly for some years, no issues, WGA and it’s destroyed – MS insists that you need WGA for updates now, so who is at fault for trashing the system – WGA, ie MS for putting out rubbish software and insisting you use it. Vista has it as a core item, any bets it’s improved, I doubt it.

          MS created this problem and then blame the client for it. Well, that’s not customer service, that’s abuse of position. I feed them to the sharks, except I’m not that cruel to animals – poisoning sharks, I’m not that low. But they just lost a customer of many years, one who has input to many other clients. All of whom are now looking very closely at Linux and Unix for their business software.

          edited to correct typo

        • #3218529

          Sorry, I have ADD

          by dumbterminal ·

          In reply to Over the years I’ve downloaded heaps of drivers, try getting

          So I only skimmed that post. Maybe I’ll thourouly read it later.
          Just a couple of things
          98 drivers for 64 bit hardware? Um, Why?

          SP2 has nothing to do with WGA

          It seems we are getting to the bottom of your anger though.
          Seems you had a bad experience with WGA. I have never met anyone else that has. Read about it, but never actually met a one.
          Are your WGA problems at home or work?
          I can’t imagine a business still being on dial up.
          Could this be end user related?
          And really I doubt MS support told you basically to go f yourself.
          I just think alot (maybe all) MS bashers exagerate. Quite a bit in fact

        • #3218397

          Yeah 64 bit drivers – WGA & SP2

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Over the years I’ve downloaded heaps of drivers, try getting

          you want the best performance out of a 64 bit system, you need 64 bit drivers – I know, they don’t make them. However, it’s almost impossible to buy a new system that isn’t 64 bit.


          regarding Spew Pack 2. I didn’t have WGA on my system, I downloaded and installed SP2, and suddenly had WGA. Try as I might, i couldn’t get SP2 without WGA came with it. It may well have been something to do with the way that MS was running the updates system at the time, but that was how it was. I even tried to select specific updates and download just those, the MS site would not allow me access to the updates after SP2 unless I had WGA installed.

          I think it’s a telling comment that only two companies have tried being so intrusive, and anti-client friendly, in their anti-piracy treatment – MS and Sony. Sony used a root kit, MS used WGA, and I think both are just as harmful in the way they work.

        • #3218365

          maybe I wasn’t clear

          by dumbterminal ·

          In reply to Over the years I’ve downloaded heaps of drivers, try getting

          “Try finding Win 98 drivers for the built in 64 bit hardware on a motherboard.”

          Of course you cant get 64 bit drivers for Windows 98!!!

          “you want the best performance out of a 64 bit system, you need 64 bit drivers – I know, they don’t make them.”

          And you need a 64 bit OS. Windows 98 is not one

          “However, it’s almost impossible to buy a new system that isn’t 64 bit.”

          Wha? I just bought a brand new 32 bit system.
          Earnest, please just stop it now. 😉

        • #3218277

          You obviously missed the point about my location

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Over the years I’ve downloaded heaps of drivers, try getting

          I live in Australia, we don’t have the range of hardware here as you do in the USA. Having only 20 million people spread out over 7,617,930 sq kms of land, with 25,760 km of coast line, while the USA has 300 million over 9,161,923 sq km of land, with 19,924 km coast line, the UK has 61 million people over 241,590 sq km of land, with 12, 429 km of coast line. We’re a bit thin on the ground and a much smaller market area.

          Thus companies don’t import huge quantities of stock, and are frequently turnover their stock with newer items. If you wanted to buy a 32 bit system you would have to look at buying from Dell or HP or similar organisations you stock by the warehouse full. But those interested in buying value for money buy vanilla and the several stores that I deal with no longer have 32 bit CPUs or motherboards available, they’d have to order them in for you. And that’s the case with the majority of the computer stores here.

          As to the 64 bit drivers. Interesting that I can find a 64 bit driver for hardware in Linux, install it on an older version of Linux and it’ll work – if it’s installed on a 64 bit system. And modern 32 bit Linux drivers will work with older versions of Linux of the same distro. Yet Windows need totally different drivers for their different versions, usually.

          Anyway, not an issue for me anymore I’ve defenestrated my MS software, and moved to Linux full time.

          edited to fix typo in title

        • #3218264
          Avatar photo

          You bought a 32 Bit system really?

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Over the years I’ve downloaded heaps of drivers, try getting

          What type of CPU does it have in it? It has to be a Celeron and they are complete garbage not worth the money spent to build them let alone place them into a system.

          The current versions of all the other CPU’s are 64 Bit and can support 32 Bit Applications but just because they can run 32 Bit Applications doesn’t mean that they are 32 Bit pieces of hardware. AMD has only been making 64 Bit CPU’s for a very long time now and Intel has adapted the EMT technology which allows 64 Bit processing on the standard CPU’s that they sell from the P4 up. At any Intel Chanel Partners Meeting the Intel people refuse to speak about the Celeron’s and treat them as a dirty word that they try to avoid. When the P4 came out with HTT someone asked at an Intel Meeting about the Celeron and was told by the presenter [b]We Don’t Talk About Those Things. [/b]

          So what exactly is the hardware Specifications of this 32 Bit system and how old is it?


        • #3274457

          M$ Ba$her$ come in camps

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to Over the years I’ve downloaded heaps of drivers, try getting

          1. Apple fans, who just love Apple/Mac/iMacs and feel the rest of the world is nuts, because they’re sooooooo happy.
          Also, many Apple users have tried using non-Apple machines and were immediately faced with a mouse that moves like lightening, buttons which required knowledge of what button does what, and numerous choices and methods of doing the same things – – – just too much to learn and too much opportunity for problems with all those unknowns.

          2. M$ U$ers who are deeply un$ati$fied with compound and redundant failures and changes. This list now includes the WGA debacle. The saga continues.
          $ome of u$ have been complaining from the beginning, from DO$ 2.11 on because we had used far better for some time and were not interested in the new kid on the block, especially when he starts out with a shady thumbnail.

          3. Other: including Distro users, but most of them are so contented with what they use that they have no time for bashing; others view themselves as evangelists for Open Source, so they visit posts like this one in the hope that they can save some from further destruction and frustration.
          Still others have migrated from M$ because they had enough of Gate$ crapware and chose to try something else or quit.

          4. The silent ones: those who could not find satisfaction in Mac or the Distros, and took up woodshop or cooking or watching cable, … anything but M$; but, since they aren’t using computers any more, they’re not likely to post, are they?

        • #3217026

          Quick response

          by dumbterminal ·

          In reply to Over the years I’ve downloaded heaps of drivers, try getting

          Hal 9000
          I’m not a hardware type in the least, so ok, mine’s a PD 840 (and I haven’t had a chance to do a thing with Vista on it yet, too busy at work) But the point was I’m not running any 64 bit software, nor do I need any 64 bit drivers.

          Good post, but you left out a camp that is actually more prelevant than you may know(and I am not singling anyone out, but I’m sure there are several on TR just as there are on any forum)
          5.The Kool-aid drinkers: Those that jump on the hating MS bandwagon merely because that is the IN thing to do. These include the people who whine because something went over thier level of comprehension, so it must be M$’s fault, not theirs
          What happens when someone bashes Linux because something goes over the users comprehension level. They get torn a new one, and rightfully so.

          I think your peers think I am attacking you, and are coming to your defense. I think you defend yourself quite well. As far as how things are in Australia, I don’t know. But it’s still not MS’s fault. Can you order hardware online (thats what I do) or is that a big, expensive pain in the rear? One thing I do agree with you on is M$’s lack of support to phase out older software. I don’t disagree for one second that they aren’t a money hungry organization, but most organizations are. Oil and Tobacco come to mind.
          Anyway, sorry if I offendeed anyone.

        • #3216893

          Hey DT, I’m a big boy and usually ignore any personal

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Over the years I’ve downloaded heaps of drivers, try getting

          attacks, but some don’t like anyone flaming anyone. Anyone can say something and have it taken the wrong way, even me.

          re the subject – I don’t mind a company making money. I object to them lying through their teeth to do so. I also object to them abusing their client base.

          I do most of my purchasing on line. But it’s not worthwhile going outside Australia for anything less than a dozen or so units – freight and customs costs are a horror (I used to do IT importations on a commercial level). the majority of the Australian on-line stores on carry the latest gear – for example, the three main sites I go to only have 64 bit CPUs, they sold all their 32 bit ones some months back and aren’t buying any, except on special orders.

        • #3216879

          5. Kool-Aid group…

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to Over the years I’ve downloaded heaps of drivers, try getting

          You may have a weak point there, but I’m one of those “industrial strength” M$ bashers. The group to which I belong must have wall-bash marks on our foreheads and pitted hands where we make a big fist and bang it on the desk, the VDT, … anything that’s near.

          The #5. Kool-aid bunch don’t have years and years of calouses from experience built upon constant study to find a way to make the @$&*^$#% things work. For that same reason, they can’t complain about Linux because they don’t know when, or if, it’s running on the machine next to them. At least the iMacs next door are cute to look at – and some of them were so well designed, they had a hook/handle built right in to run my cable to the boat anchor, and that made them useful.

          Finally, the be$t ba$her$ are tho$e who have used older, reeeeeeeaaaaaaaallllllyyyy reliable products and software in the past and have something to which to compare it so unfavorably. It’s OK, though, a couple more decades and we’ll be dead, or forget what we knew, and life can go on as though we, and better performance never existed.

        • #3218804

          Since you didn’t single Ernest out …

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to DE, Your unadulterated hatred for MS

          I’m encouraged to read many of the posts on this particular issue because it demonstrates that many of us (as one put it where I could not respond) “old-farts” are writing from experience in what is now considered ancient history; but it is history and good history at that, so many of those who are relatively new to this field could really benefit from our knowledge, integrity, and experience.

          The core issue(s) are that M$ has repeatedly demonstrated that they are focusing on a program which is hurting users in two ways: 1. They are defeating our ability to produce on machines with their OS by installing malware which is giving false positives requiring users to stop production and deal with the Mother$hip before proceeding, and;
          2. They are beginning from a “the customer is a pirate unless we allow him/her to be a passenger” premise. We are guilty because we buy a machine with bundled ware.

          All this and increased risk from the outside world and decreased reliability from the programs we bought and paid for.

          Additionally, those of us who worked with much superior systems in the past (C/PM and DEC/VAX) can remember a time when things were provably better. That should not be discounted just because we’re considered old geekzers. We know whereof we speak and the tech world would improve their lot in life if they began to consider and understand that there was once a much more reliable standard.

          You may have trouble hating, but we have more trouble than you trying to respect those who scorn proper quality, and find that digital bling is more important than usability and reliability. The forced changes being hurled at us from Redmond are not respecting those who use the products, rather they are mean, cruel, tricks to force more $$$ out of everyone. This deserves being hated from those who are better than the goons of M$. One day you will also join our ranks – after you have been shut down unjustly, and you must lose necessary time to do your job.
          Only those who have no concern for the user, but prefer the idea of guaranteed profits from guaranteed breakdowns will find M$ to their liking.

          I see M$ $upporter$ coming from only two camps today:
          1. Tinkerers who prefer malware to productivity (see earlier articles), and;
          2. Those who profit from others’ suffering without concern that there are no reliable solutions to the problem.

          Neither of those two is going to find a friend in real business before the next decade. As it stands, IT will be known as being just one caste below lawyers and harlots. The heady days of IT being an elite group of problem-solvers are in their late sunset. We have only M$ undying propensity to destroy and lazy profiteering “techs” to thank for that.

        • #3218681
          Avatar photo

          I would have to go one step further

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Since you didn’t single Ernest out …

          95 was the beginning of the end for everything MS. That was the first MS produced OS that didn’t require an educated End User to use so all the highly qualified staff where let go to be replaced by minimum wage youngsters who don’t know any better than to Point & Click.

          As recently as last year I was told that a [b]Mail Merge[/b] is not taught in advanced Office Classes as it’s too advanced and seldom used today. Back in the MS DOS Days if you couldn’t perform a Mail Merge in Word Perfect 5 or lower you didn’t stand a chance of getting that Data Entry Job let alone anything more important.

          Over the years I’ve seen the position go from [b]Thank god your Here now all our Problems will be fixed[/b] to [b]God what the hell are you doing here and how much is it going to cost us this time you thieving Bastard?[/b]

          Now my workmanship has not altered but what’s on the desktop has and that is what I constantly get hit with we paid for this and it should be working! One place that I went to to even asked me to see why the spell checker wasn’t working on every one of their new machines and all that they had installed was XP Home on a 25 station Peer to Peer network. The sales person had told them that was all that was required so that’s all that was sold to them and what tore it was one computer was sold with 2 monitors especially for this purpose and they didn’t provide any method to connect the other monitor. When I spoke to them they came up with some lame excuse that they didn’t realise that they wanted to use both monitors at the same time. Why in Gods name would you bother wasting your money if you didn’t want to use both together?

          Personally as I now can do what I want and should have retired 16 years ago I’m not quite so bad off as most but the times are a changing and it will not be long till the Politicians and Used Car Salespersons are thought more highly of than an IT Pro as the first will be considered to be far more honest and not attempt to charge you more than the original purchase price to repair something that has broken just to save the stored data.

          Even now with a lot of the off the shelf systems when they get a problem their first option is a wipe and install and to hell with the owners data it’s not important as it’s not part of the system. Then they will replace the faulty bit but only after blowing away every bit of the users data.


        • #3218535

          You all just sound like conspiracy nuts to me

          by dumbterminal ·

          In reply to Since you didn’t single Ernest out …

          I’ve had troubles with Windows and Linux systems. You learn how to make your systems work. Thats the bottom line.Thats I.T.

          I couldn’t get malware if I tried.

          Once again, no disrespect intended, but most MS bashers just sound like they are talking out of thier @$$es. I’m not so hot on MS business practices either, but if people are having all the problems they claim to be having with Windows machines, maybe it’s time to find a new profession.
          MS may or may not always be the DeFacto.If and when that ceases to be, I personally won’t whine or cry about it, I will simply move on.
          I just can’t get over how people act like they know BG personally, and that he PERSONALLY did THEM some kind of wrong.

          If OS/2, H2O, C3PO, and OU812 are such wonderful OSes, then go ahead and see if your employers want to switch to those.
          Let me know what they say

        • #3218262
          Avatar photo

          OK I’ll bite

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Since you didn’t single Ernest out …

          Just exactly where in the above did I mention anything about Billy Boy let alone making any indication that I know him?

          All I’ve said in the above is that with the introduction of Windows 95 the highly educated end users have on the most part disappeared to be replaced by untrained people who know next to nothing and are expected to do the same job as the highly trained people where doing. I also said that basic things like how to do a Mail Merge are no longer being taught to the people who are paying good money to learn and get a job as some form of End User.

          Now just how is this some form of Conspiracy?

          It’s nothing more than [b]Pure Laziness[/b] on the part of the Business who use these systems and the schools who teach this stuff. Once if you couldn’t write a Macro you didn’t get a job as a Data Entry person now they call for a Programmer to write that same Macro that the end users of 10 odd years ago where doing without a second thought and generally speaking did a better job of it as well because they knew what it was that was required and didn’t write something and then say [b]Make It Work.[/b]

          Sorry but as an IT Tech it’s not my job to run around writing Macros for some end user or to drop tools at the end of every Financial Year and change the Accounting Programs over to the Next Financial Year. This should be standard End User work and not the job of someone getting paid like I do for something so far below my skill set that it’s not funny.

          I also don’t see just how MS fits into any form of Conspiracy about the Cowboy Sales People who sell anything to make a quick Buck at the expense of the customers needs.

          But as you obviously have far more experience than little old me I’ll bow to your superior knowledge. Now perhaps you would like to come and face some of my customers the first time that I attend these places and see that they have paid 5 times too much for half the software and hardware that they need.

          You say it’s all MS’s fault but I see it as a general dumbing down of the entire IT community and even worse inept sales people selling what they are told to sell as apposed to what the customer needs. MS is only involved as far as they make it easier for complete computer Illiterate people to think that they are capable of using a computer as well as some highly trained person but I personally don’t see how they contribute to the rubbish being sold to business by less than satisfactory Sales Staff.

          At one place that I go to their new P4 took 30 minutes to boot of a morning and that was considered as good by the people who sold it to the business. The one that I replaced it with last financial year boots with the same program load in about 3 minutes and just does everything better. Incidentally it has XP pro and Office 2003 loaded on it as well as some proprietary programs specially written for a Doctors Surgery. I didn’t consider it a piece of [b]Good Business[/b] to load it with XP Home and Works like the previous one was provided.

          I don’t have the slightest problem in using Windows where it makes sense or because of the required programs there is no option I however just don’t believe that it’s the only solution available in every situation.


    • #3138080

      You have a problem counting !!

      by brummy21 ·

      In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

      Windows 2000 and Windows XP are distinct and different versions. Therefore, according to your progression Windows XP (2002) should be considered as BAD, which is of course not correct. That would then make Vista GOOD. By the way, in no way was Windows 95 bad either – it remains one of the most stable versions of Windows if you stop third party software from overwriting its system files with broken updates, and keep away from rubbish third party device drivers and rubbish memory modules.

      • #3274922

        Win 95 good?

        by stevef611 ·

        In reply to You have a problem counting !!

        Are you NUTS? Stupid? Criminally insane? The biggest beta release in computer history (through that date)? After 2 couple of dozen service releases it was fine. We stayed WFWG3.11 until well into 1996 before anything but test/demo machines were using 95. 98SE twice as stable. They are getting better. We should see a good stable OS directly out of the box the 2012ish.

    • #3138079

      What is Windows NT/98?

      by iaston ·

      In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

      Umm I could have sworn these were 2 completely different Operating Sytems with massively different underlying technologies but then again I may be wrong…

      Also, you and your pal can’t lump Windows 2000 and XP in together for the sake of your pattern!

      Nice idea but come on!!

    • #3138077

      Hopeful for Vista

      by cloudohana ·

      In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

      DOS 3.3: GOOD
      DOS 4.2: BAD
      DOS 5.0: GOOD
      DOS 6.0: OKAY
      DOS 6.22: GOOD
      Windows 2.0: AWEFUL (quickly uninstalled)
      Windows 3.0: OKAY
      Windows 3.1/3.11 for WG: GOOD
      Windows NT 3.0/95a: BAD
      Windows 95b: GOOD
      Windows NT 4.0/98: OKAY
      Windows 98SE: GOOD
      Windows ME: ABSOLUTELY AWEFUL!! Don’t do like this again!!
      Windows 2000/XP: GREAT!!
      Windows Vista: Hopeful!!

    • #3138076

      You are correct, especially on ME

      by frank semuju ·

      In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

      I think Microsoft has learned a lot from the experience of XP SP2, that I hope Vista should be a much more better OS.

      • #3138031

        Windows Multiple Errors

        by cs ·

        In reply to You are correct, especially on ME

        That was the name my 13 year old (at the time) used to describe Windows ME. There certainly is congruence with my experience as an IT Manager as to the adage of don’t buy an even numbered version of Microsoft. My theory is that Microsoft lose their good people through promotion or departure following a successful release. The new people in the MS team then have to develop, endure & fix a poor release before they get it right with the next one.

        • #3138004

          Closer to the truth

          by w.j.eichler ·

          In reply to Windows Multiple Errors

          You may be closer to the truth than anyone else in this post.
          In sports, now that there is free agency, championship teams fall apart, when the stars depart.
          People write software not companys. In companys there are stars and duds. In companys, coming off of recent success, self promoting duds can convince management they are stars. You can polish up a dud, but it remains a dud. Stars working for duds soon learn the truth and find somewhere else to go.
          When the duds make the company go through a bad period, they start to weed out the duds and look for stars.
          Problem is that this cyclic bussines pattern starts to let the duds slip through the cracks and after a while you get dud build up, that is when the CEO retires with his fortune and leaves the duds to fend for themselves. Just a thought!!

        • #3274893

          WinME was a rush job

          by mtbandit ·

          In reply to Windows Multiple Errors

          Remember, Windows ME was put out for one reason only: appeasement.

          Win98 was touted as the last DOS-based Windows; Windows 2000, running on the NT kernel, was going to be the ONLY version of Windows released for use by home and business. I remember predicting at the time that they would back off that claim and release a home version if only to keep from losing the home market. the hue and cry was loud and insistent enough that Me was released somewhat quietly and without any fanfare a few months after Win2k. In fact, I recall that I didn’t even hear about it until after it was released. It was a quick and dirty (REALLY dirty) “update” of Win98 in which, among other things, they remove some networking support in order to discourage businesses from using that instead of Win2k. It worked for us. We held onto Win98 until XP was released.

          XP was the first version of Windows I felt totally comfortable and content with. I disliked NT and 2000 because it was hard to find things, and I didn’t like 9x because they were too unstable. XP was the first time MS got the useability of the 9x series blended well with the workhorse nature and stability of NT/2000. My co-workers were AMAZED to hear me say “I like this…” (being a Netware engineer, it’s been pretty much my schtick that nothing Redmond produced was any good).

        • #3215803

          Good, unbiased post

          by dumbterminal ·

          In reply to WinME was a rush job

          Most people that insult ME do it on the pretense of hearsay, and have no clue what they are talking about. You summed up ME’s problem nicely.

        • #3217329

          ME did work

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to Good, unbiased post

          I was forced (I know, nobody forced me, …) to have ME because it came bundled with the computer in the box. I live in a rural area, so my choices are further limited.

          I had problems with ME, but not nearly as many or as bad as I experienced with 95 and 98/98SE at work. It allowed me to have thumbnails of photos and a slide show that XP fans all think is new. It hung and it crashed, but it had far fewer BSOD’s It also allowed me to save things from the internet by having a shortcut to the temp files; in XP you must go through several chutes and ladders and hope to get what you want – mostly not.

          In an earlier response, you flamed me by telling me that those who, unlike I, are not speaking out their @$ find ways to MAKE IT WORK. Well, I made ME work, and – apart from upgrading to XP in order to install a 250gb HDD, I find that ME was far easier to use than XP – – – Home or Office. It also had fewer menacing “features”; I could use a Dazzle external (USB) card to capture video (like 98), but I could not send it out to a VHS machine, so my work was all for nothing if I wanted to produce a wedding. That’s why I hate M$. As soon as they see that someone has a new feature, they produce a schlepp version of that “feature” and make sure the “outsider” can’t be used any more. That same Dazzle card – although it will work on 98 and ME, is not allowed to be recognized by XP. That’s M$B$ and there have been laws to stop that crap, but M$ operates above and away from the laws.

          So, I put it to you: Prove your superior position. Buy a Dazzle card (you can have mine) and Make It Work in XP, OK? Thought so.

        • #3216995

          Hi Teddy. Need a hug?

          by dumbterminal ·

          In reply to ME did work

          When did I say ME didn’t work?

          I was agreeing with his opinions.
          ‘ME was released somewhat quietly and without any fanfare ‘
          ‘…”update” of Win98 in which, among other things, they remove some networking support in order to discourage businesses from using that instead of Win2k.’

          As far as a functioning OS, the few times I came into contact with it, it seemed to work just fine.

          What does a Dazzle card in XP have to do with anything? Um, I guess I could try it,( Don’t know why anyone would want to, or why you’d want me to) but I’m scared to death to give you my address. 🙂

        • #3216875

          Wow! That’s a lot for me to respond to, but here goes…

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to Hi Teddy. Need a hug?

          This particular forum has really gone off on ME, and I was being the odd man out, I guess. I really hated ME, but find that it was much better than 95, 98, 98SE and XP. Had to use them all 50 hours a week for years, so I know whereof I speak there – except there was no ME at work.

          I bought a Dazzle card some years ago. I want to capture video. Dazzle worked in and out in 98; capture only in ME, and nada in XP. I still have the card and it still could be useful for .avi, except M$ has given it the “last rites” and Dazzle is part of Pinnacle and they have their own external USB device – which doesn’t work, the audio lags exponentially, so after 45 minutes or so, it looks like an original “Godzilla” flick or worse.

          Now you could claim that it’s not M$ fault, but I contend that M$ deliberately locked it out in favor of their own hyper-limited movie maker, and Dazzle/Pinnacle/Aver just threw in the towel and tried a new design which doesn’t work, so I blame M$ for planned obsolesence and Dazzle/Pinnacle/Aver for selling crap at premium prices. Both should fix the problem and I should be able to use any USB device I own, … which worked on previous systems. Can you not understand that?

          … And, no, I don’t need a hug – at least not from you. I have a wonderful wife who gives me State-Of-The-Art hugs, but she threw in the towel on computers when Honeywell/Bull closed down their main frame division, so she’s no help there.

          All I want is a machine and OS that works, that doesn’t constantly require maintainence and updates and time spent with the Mother$hip before I can produce the stuff I bought these machines to do.

        • #3216839

          Hey MT, have you tried Linux for your Dazzler – I’ve got a box

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Hi Teddy. Need a hug?

          full of old Win 98 based games I love, that won’t run, no matter what you do, in XP. I’d given up on them, until I tried Linux with Cedega, they run great. You could try a Linux install with WINE, or Crossover and install your original Windows based software from way back when, and see how that goes.

        • #3219172

          So ME is better than XP because of the Dazzler card?

          by dumbterminal ·

          In reply to Hi Teddy. Need a hug?

          I never knocked ME in the first place, and you act like I did, which was my point.
          I tire of this

        • #3219013

          ME is not Better; XP is worse.

          by media-ted9 ·

          In reply to Hi Teddy. Need a hug?

          I’m trying – repeatedly – to show that M$ has a “long train of abuses” dedicated to cutting off things (hardware and software) that worked on their earlier versions, and this by design and purpose.

          There is nothing about the Dazzle card that makes it inferior to anything out there today, just that it was there before others. True, newer ones facilitate “instant” compression (MPEG-2) for faster turnaround, and some offer HDTV, but the total case for usable .avi files from analogue is still valid.

          Ernest: we gotta get together, … soon! I’m really looking into some Distro, had thought SuSe until M$ changed it to $u$e (sorry, DT, I just can’t help my$elf any more…)

          What program(s) are you u$ing to capture, edit, and, … hopefully burn to DVD?

    • #3138075

      Your pattern is flawed.

      by necrothug ·

      In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

      For this pattern to be true, it would have to look like this:

      DOS 3.3: GOOD
      DOS 4.2: BAD
      DOS 5.0: GOOD
      DOS 6.0: BAD
      DOS 6.22: GOOD
      Windows 3.0: BAD
      Windows 3.1: GOOD
      Windows 95: BAD
      Windows NT: GOOD
      Windows 98: BAD
      Windows ME: GOOD
      Windows 2000: BAD
      Windows XP: GOOD
      Windows Vista: ?

      This is obviously flawed.
      You can’t lump together totally different technology like you did for the sake of a clever little pattern.

    • #3138074

      You have left out some versions and the fact that Vista has several version

      by onclejon ·

      In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

      After Windows 98 my experience was:
      20000 Good
      Me Bad
      XPHome Bad
      XP Pro Good
      XP SP1 Good
      XP SP2 Bad
      Vista which version to compare?

    • #3138072

      Windows Vista : GOOD

      by mercenaryali9 ·

      In reply to Is Vista Doomed from the Start?

      That stops the trend dead in it’s shoes!
      VISTA works just fine and I have only the RC1 version as issued to testers directely from Microcost. So far so good.

      • #3138062

        So it’s good for you, fine

        by tony hopkinson ·

        In reply to Windows Vista : GOOD

        One happy customer, many billions to go.
        I dare say if you go off as home user by vista capable hardware and you only use applications designed for it, it will be OK. Especially after a service pack or two.

        A place where I worked, where they still have a large win95 base (1000s) and some very old in house and 3rd applications that work with their ibm and vax kit which are absolutely critical to their business aren’t going to greet it with any fervour.

        Don’t say oh they should have upgraded ages ago etc. What they have runs their business effectively, they see no need for change nor is there much in Vista that offers them any increase in effectiveness compared to the cost of doing an upgrade. So quite rightly they won’t.

        Personally I think MS have just given them the incentive for a switch to linux, which is something they’ve been looking at for a while. Training and infrastructure changes have put them off up to press, but they are were starting to look less of a problem against XP never mind Vista.

        • #3274907

          I concur, Linux looks a better option now.

          by kiltie ·

          In reply to So it’s good for you, fine

          Most of those looking at Linux instead of Vista, are us techies.

          M$ pooh-poohs that, think we are a just a few geeks.

          But they are wrong, we also happen to be IT consultants, IT managers and the like. What we have is influence.
          We will be recommending various Linux options to our customers, be they in the consumer marker, or in business. we’ll even demo a few good free ones.
          Once they see what Linux can do nowadays, and then start looking at REAL COLD HARD facts, such as [i]MONEY[/i], against what performance improvements there are(nt), they will be voting with their wallets.

          and that is just the beginning, ‘cos word will spread……

        • #3274787

          Linux can’t touch the client server environment

          by big george ·

          In reply to I concur, Linux looks a better option now.

          and everything is not Web server in enterprise solutions.

        • #3274710

          Anybody at home ?

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Linux can’t touch the client server environment

          Which sort of servers can’t you run on linux?
          Not products, types.

          Bear in mind my last job was adding five more databases servers under linux to the twenty-eight the company already had.

          You need to get out more.

        • #3275266
          Avatar photo

          Easy answer Tony

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Anybody at home ?

          They are unable to run the Windows 2003 Servers on Linux because he can’t get it to install into Windows. 😀


        • #3275198

          There’s no such thing as windows 2003 :D

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Easy answer Tony

          now linux only does web servers and windows is the only compatible operating system.

          I despair, I truly do. The Gartner IT education program has been far more effective than I thought.

        • #3275111
          Avatar photo

          Tony you have to forgive them

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Anybody at home ?

          Because they know not what they talk about. But your right that edumication system leaves a lot to be desired doesn’t it?

          I had a guy here try to install 2003 ES on a 2,000 CPU Blade because it had to run Windows. It didn’t matter that the Graphic Rendering program used by the Graphic Artists was a Nix only application and there is nothing capable of doing the job on a Windows Platform. This new guy had to strip out SuSe9 overnight and install 2003 and try to make it work.

          Luckily he didn’t know about the spare Boot Drive that I have for it locked away in a safe so I just swapped out the boot drive got the system up & running again and then cloned the boot drive back over the Windows install. I really don’t think that he even thought about just how many of those CPU’s that they where paying for would actually run he just had to have Windows on the system.

          After I fixed it I believe that the guy in charge of the CG unit surrounded that blade with razor wire to keep him away from it. I didn’t have the heart to tell him that it could be accessed remotely but as I didn’t give the Tech the password that I had changed I wasn’t too worried. 😀

          Anyway if he had of messed with it again he would have been killed immediately and hung on the surrounding building as a lesson to anyone else who tried to mess with that unit. Crude but extremely effective. :^0


        • #3275058

          The I only know windows so that must be the

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Tony you have to forgive them

          way to do it manouvre.

          I too have seen that.

        • #3218819

          Linux can’t touch the client server environment….

          by beowulf_cam ·

          In reply to Linux can’t touch the client server environment

          Maybe not, but you can run a Unix box.

        • #3218663


          by kcmplex ·

          In reply to Linux can’t touch the client server environment….

          If all you know how to use is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail! (Or something like that)

      • #3138015

        yeah, Vista works fine, if you can afford new top range hardware

        by deadly ernest ·

        In reply to Windows Vista : GOOD

        and want a machine primarily for multimedia use. For the average office environment it’s expensive rubbish, all eye candy.

        You can spend less than half of the money and get a box running XP, or for about a tenth of Vista, you can get Linspire.

        • #3274919

          Lets be honest

          by cbrown ·

          In reply to yeah, Vista works fine, if you can afford new top range hardware

          The business world is not exactly ready to spend some money… but they should. There way behind the times. Everyone working IT knows we get the short end of the money stick, but businesses could benefit from better systems.

          The reqs to run Vista are in line with current computer trends. At least Apple has it right with their method–they just dont sell anything older than a year or two. If businesses would keep up with current hardware then they wouldn’t have to spend so much to keep up. Besides, if your company has a few hundred machines, a smart IT manager would have a contract with Dell or HP anyway, and you’ll be rolling in new pc’s each quarter.

          It’s funny, because corporate America will complain about lack of security, then complain when they have to purchase a new product to get it. Thats business.

        • #3274903

          Lets be really honest

          by tony hopkinson ·

          In reply to Lets be honest

          In business security on individual workstations is not a priority, on the boundaries it’s extremely important and usually hardware.
          If you’ve got a good perimeter then running 95/98 inside it doesn’t matter does it.
          No to mention most of the script kiddie stuff doesn’t work on it any more.
          Most of the added features on workstations where a w/p, worksheet may be access, email etc in 95 and 98 are perfectly adequate for general business needs.

        • #3274752

          Yeah lets be honest – business should not need to replace

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Lets be honest

          any equipment until after it has ended its usefulness, or a replacement will improve productivity enough to justify the expense of early replacement. I’m leaving out replacements required for changed legislative needs, as that is not a business decision, but a legal one.

          So, in business terms, the hardware and software should not need replacing until it falls apart, or no longer performs adequately. I know many small businesses that are still running old pentiums with Win 98 and corporate software quite OK, many are doing the same with NT, and Win 2K.

          Now lets look at Vista – to use it, you have to get new hardware, and only the newest hardware. MS and hardware manufacturers don’t make drivers for their new hardware that suits the older OSs. Very few Windows based applications work well on any version of Windows, except the one it was designed for. Trying running Win 98 software in XP, and you’ll see what I mean.

          If you are a MS Windows based environment, any significant upgrade of hardware and / or software, means a full replacement of all, soon after, to keep them compatible.

          I know of two businesses in Sydney, both are in the same industry, in different suburbs, both are small businesses and their total revenue over the last 10 years are within 2% of each other. They both work off the same profit margins, yet one has made a lot more profit than the other. The difference has been the overhead costs, not the direct operational costs.

          When they set up, one went with Linux based computer systems for their office staff, 4 people. They initially installed Red Hat and Star Office. Office staff has increased to 10, and new systems easily integrated. The original corporate software still runs on the latest hardware – they replaced all systems in Aug 2005. They’re still running the same accounting software, had a a few minor changes for legislative needs, and two other corporate packages are unchanged. Their total IT costs over the ten years are only 5% of the other business.

          The second business, run by the first guy’s cousin, set up with Windows, as that was what the office manager, the guy’s wife, was used to. Since then they’ve had to pay to replace hardware twice as often and also buy accounting package upgrades when they changed from Win 95 to Win NT 4, and Win XP. On top of buying upgrades for two legislative changes. They also have more tech call outs than the guy with the Linux set up. Both started with 4 office staff and have increased since, the Windows guy works longer hours as he can only afford 8 staff.

          Having worked on a high security gateway, I agree with the other person who said that once you have a good perimeter you don’t need to worry about security at the desktop. Mind you a good perimeter also includes good, up to date, virus scanning of all mail and other incoming traffic. This is where many businesses fail to do their job properly and need desktop security.

        • #3274696

          Well my Vista PC is not top of the line

          by michael l hereid sr ·

          In reply to yeah, Vista works fine, if you can afford new top range hardware

          This is my system that I built in 2004(for Windows XP)
          MSI K8N NEO Platinum
          AMD Sempron X64 3300+
          2 512meg DDR Kingston PC3200
          WD1200JB SE 120 gig
          Maxtor Diamond10 S ATA 80gig
          WD 800JB (2)
          MicroAdvantage DVD +- RW Dual-L
          Nvidia FX6200 256meg memory
          AverMedia Ultra TV 1500 MCE(added June 2006)
          Ultra V-series 500watt PSU
          Ultra Media Reader
          Dual-Boot Vista Ultimate X64/Vista Ultimate
          MS Optical Mouse(USB)
          Hitachi 19″ CRT
          Acer AL1717BBM LCD 17″monitor(added this year)
          I built this pc before I was even invited to beta test Vista. As can be seen it is not top of the line.
          At this time I run Vista Ultimate X64 99.9% of the time. Vista runs with no problems.

        • #3274639

          With what we get down here, that’s so close to the top

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to Well my Vista PC is not top of the line

          for then it ain’t funny. 1 GB RAM, SATA drive, 256 MB Video. At that time, most average price systems in Australia were selling with 512 MB RAM and 128 MB graphics. Many motherboards for sale still didn’t have SATA.

          The info I’ve seen on Vista says your wasting your time if your system doesn’t have SATA or PCI Ex – so the majority of existing systems won’t run it, thus forcing hardware upgrades.

          The system above is very up market for someone who just wants to do basic web surfing, word processing and the like. You could get a system for half the price and still do that, but forget Vista, it won’t run.

        • #3215924

          Ok one of the pc’s I test Vista on

          by michael l hereid sr ·

          In reply to With what we get down here, that’s so close to the top

          uses a AMD Athlon XP 1700+/512meg memory/64 meg video card/NO sata drive. Runs Vista Home Premium very nicely.

        • #3215866
          Avatar photo

          Well I’m going to ask anyway

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Ok one of the pc’s I test Vista on

          Has anyone seen the new [b]RSOD[/b] on Vista yet?

          With every build that I’ve used I have yet to see it even though the system has fallen over many times and performed a warm boot particularly with the Beta2 and not so much with the latter releases but I just haven’t seen Vista [b]RSOD[/b] out yet.


        • #3215798


          by dumbterminal ·

          In reply to Well I’m going to ask anyway

          RED Screen O’ Death??

        • #3218677
          Avatar photo

          Yes that right

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Well I’m going to ask anyway

          MS promised that the BSOD would be a thing of the past with Vista so instead of having a Blue SOD they have changed it to Red.

          Apparently you’ll only see the Blue one when some thing really goes wrong with the system but you should see a Red Screen of Death when you get Fatal Errors.


        • #3218571

          They’re waiting

          by dawgit ·

          In reply to Well I’m going to ask anyway

          Until the people pay. You don’t expect all the ‘Bells & Whistles’ to come in the Beta do you? Na, just wait, I think we’ll see the RSOD soon enough. (Then we’ll be seeing plenty red. 🙁 )

          edited, damn big fingers on these little keys.

        • #3218261
          Avatar photo

          Well in that case

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Well I’m going to ask anyway

          I’ll just have to hope that it’s a nice Red Colour so you can read the error message. 😀


        • #3216999

          Holy crap, how funny

          by dumbterminal ·

          In reply to Well I’m going to ask anyway

          Is that really true? I thought you were kidding. 😉
          Kind of like with XP saying no more BSODs, when all they did was hide them. Which incedently, made troubleshooting all the more difficult.
          Is there still the option to hide/unhide the R/BSOD’s?


        • #3216860
          Avatar photo

          Well I can only repeat what the MS People have said at Partner Meetings

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Well I’m going to ask anyway

          Apparently the BSOD will be a thing of the past with Vista in all but the most severe problems.

          Apparently if you get a [b]Fatal Exception Error Occurs[/b] you are supposed to see a RSOD and if it’s really bad you’ll see the good old reliable BSOD.

          What’s got me wondering is what is worse than a Fatal Exception Error and when you see a BSOD on Vista do you get the MI message that this will self destruct in 5 seconds? 😀


        • #3215799

          More hearsay

          by dumbterminal ·

          In reply to With what we get down here, that’s so close to the top

          Minimum requirements for basic Vista include an 800 MHz or faster CPU and 512 Mbytes of RAM. Your graphics subsystem only needs to support Direct X9.

          PCs under that should be thrown in a trash heap anyway. EPC has boxes with those specs for about $200.00

          Everyone is knocking something they know nothing about. The Aeroglass $h1t is what takes all the hardware requirements.

          I’m loading RC1 as a dual boot now. It is on a good machine though. We will be loading it on a laptop tomorrow.
          If it sucks, I will be the first to knock it (I knocked XP over 2000 until I actually USED it)
          But at least I WILL TRY IT FIRST.

        • #3218813

          Prices in Australia are higher than the USA,

          by deadly ernest ·

          In reply to More hearsay

          double them as a rough estimate. However, late last year I got the stated requirements for Vista from the MS website, costed the components, and compared them with the iMac of the same standard, available at that time. Once you added in the cost of the software to make them compatible in capability – the iMac was much cheaper. I posted the figures on a thread here at TR at the time.

          Build the same machine as a Linux box and it is cheaper again.

          I tried Vista last year, didn’t like. The first thing I had to do, was go out and buy a new hard drive. I have several IDE drives of various sizes, but Vista wouldn’t even look at the system without a SATA drive in it. Then i t had a hernia because I wanted it to use the IDE drive as well, it refused. P4 3 ghz system and Vista performed worse than XP did on it. I gave up on it.

          You could be right in that the current version of Vista, it’s the Aeroglass that needs the hardware, but that’s the core aspects of what MS are selling in Vista, the eye candy.

        • #3218669
          Avatar photo

          Just a suggestion here

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to More hearsay

          When you load Vista remember to load the Beta of Office 2007.

          You’ll get a real kick out of the new user interface that presents what you need when you need it.

          It’s just like IE7 lots of pretty Eye Candy and just about impossible to find what you really want.

          BTW Aero is supposed to work with a 64 MEG Video Card according to the Boys & Girls at MS. I’ve tried in on a Pentium Extreme with 4 GIG of RAM and a 512 MEG Video Card. It’s much slower than XP to load and even slower than XP and Office 2003 to use the Office Application on and that is when you can find what you need. Try performing a Mail Merge in 2007 you’ll find it interesting but don’t cheat and look up the help files as MS has already promised that with the New Interactive Interface in Office you get the tools that you need when you need them and you don’t need to go hunting around looking for hidden things like you had to previously.


        • #3274695

          Well my Vista PC is not top of the line

          by michael l hereid sr ·

          In reply to yeah, Vista works fine, if you can afford new top range hardware

          This is my system that I built in 2004(for Windows XP)
          MSI K8N NEO Platinum
          AMD Sempron X64 3300+
          2 512meg DDR Kingston PC3200
          WD1200JB SE 120 gig
          Maxtor Diamond10 S ATA 80gig
          WD 800JB (2)
          MicroAdvantage DVD +- RW Dual-L
          Nvidia FX6200 256meg memory
          AverMedia Ultra TV 1500 MCE(added June 2006)
          Ultra V-series 500watt PSU
          Ultra Media Reader
          Dual-Boot Vista Ultimate X64/Vista Ultimate
          MS Optical Mouse(USB)
          Hitachi 19″ CRT
          Acer AL1717BBM LCD 17″monitor(added this year)
          I built this pc before I was even invited to beta test Vista. As can be seen it is not top of the line.
          At this time I run Vista Ultimate X64 99.9% of the time. Vista runs with no problems.

        • #3274679

          Top of the line-I don’t think so

          by michael l hereid sr ·

          In reply to yeah, Vista works fine, if you can afford new top range hardware

          I built this pc in December of 2004 for Windows XP Pro(I built this before I was invited to beta test Vista)-as can be seen this is not a
          top of the line PC.
          MSI K8N NEO Platinum
          AMD Sempron X64 3300+
          2 512meg DDR Kingston PC3200
          WD1200JB SE 120 gig
          Maxtor Diamond10 S ATA 80gig
          WD 800JB (2)
          MicroAdvantage DVD +- RW Dual-L
          Nvidia FX6200 256meg memory
          AverMedia Ultra TV 1500 MCE(added in July)
          Ultra V-series 500watt PSU
          Ultra Media Reader
          Dual-Boot Vista Ultimate X64/Vista Ultimate
          MS Optical Mouse(USB)
          Hitachi 19″ CRT
          Acer AL1717BBM LCD 17″monitor(bought this year)
          I was dual-booting Xp with Vista till RC1-with the stability and ease of use plus the speed of video processing.
          I use Vista X64 Ultimate 99% of the time.

        • #3274671

          I looks a super machine Mike

          by kiltie ·

          In reply to Top of the line-I don’t think so

          No wonder you have no problems with Vista 😉

          I say this from the perspective of my small home network of Pentium class Is, and IIs, headed by a magnificent PIII, all dual booting off ~10GB main hard drives 256MB RAM (multi booting [u][i]more[/i][/u] than that if you count the Linux distros I am testing out)


          Wish I was rich too….

        • #3274656

          Super pc I wish but next one I’m building will be or close anyway

          by michael l hereid sr ·

          In reply to I looks a super machine Mike

          AMD X2 4200+
          MSI K9N F Nvidia chipset
          Ultra DDR2 Dual Channel 1 gig memory
          Evga Geforce 7300 GS PCI Express video card
          2 160 gig hd Sata Raid 0+1
          Floppy drive
          DVD +- RW DL
          AverMedia PCTV Ultra 1500
          Total cost not counting S&H $703
          Now this I call a near Super PC

          PS This will take me about 3 to 6 months to buy all the parts being on limited income.

        • #3275265
          Avatar photo

          But what you’ve forgotten Michael

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Super pc I wish but next one I’m building will be or close anyway

          Is that the cost of the OEM MS Software even if you just install Vista & Office 2007 is going to be as much as the hardware again.

          I get a lot of phone calls from domestic buyers who are willing to spend around $700.00 AU on a complete system and to be honest I can not buy the OEM MS Product for that let alone the hardware that they seem to think that they should have. Of maybe it’s just MS Legal Department attempting to get me to sell them Pirate Software as I’ve been reported at least 3 times now by one Government Department who’s Volume License comes up as Not Genuine every time that a Service Pack or something becomes available. What’s even funner is that I didn’t supply anything at all it was all brought directly by some Faceless Bureaucrat directly off MS but because those Bureaucrats can never make a mistake they push the blame onto the people who keep the system running. You really know that you have a problem when even the Governments own IT section will not deal with this department. 😀

          But when I’m told that these people can buy a complete system with XP Pro & Office I suggest that they ring a phone number that I give then to check it out. I just pass them directly back onto MS Anti Piracy Hotline or the last time after they got one really good potential buyer I suggested to install Open Office instead of MS Office and make it affordable under their upper price restrictions and even then it came to $24.00 more than they wanted to pay so I didn’t get a sale. :^0