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It couldn't possibly work in the USA, right?

By AnsuGisalas ·
Tags: Off Topic
Not focusing on measurements of results
No merit pay for teachers
100% public funding

So yeah, I predict at least one response of "That could never work here". But is it really so hard to believe that the usual school systems have it bass ackwards?

For Maxwell: Nobody is specifically saying that the public funding is why it works, if it was that easy, the Finns wouldn't hands down beat out Denmark and Norway.

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Really easy to believe

by Slayer_ In reply to It couldn't possibly work ...

People have been saying that about US schools for years.

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No, "that could never work here"

by maxwell edison In reply to It couldn't possibly work ...

Because any significant changes in our education system that would weed out bad teachers (as compared to Finland's top 10 percent criteria) would be blocked by the influence of the powerful teacher's union lobby.

I'm actually in favor of public funding for education, but not federal government control over that funding. I'm in favor of state funding and state control, which yields to local control to some degree, which yields to parental control to a further degree.

I think a problem we have in the USA is the notion that one size fits all. It might be more practical in a nation like Finland, with a population of only 5 million, but we have cities with populations that exceed that whole country. To think the same kinds of social structure would work in a more diverse, and much larger country with a population of over 300 million is naive.

While the problems and issues throughout a country like Finland might be similar, it's not that way at all in the United States. New York and Wyoming are as different as night and day. Nebraska, Iowa, Utah, the Dakotas, et al, spend much less money per student, and have much higher success rates than states like New York and New Jersey, or cities like Washington D.C. and Chicago.

Each of the 50 states should run their own education systems, and the federal government should just butt out. And if any of those 50 states (or even local school districts within the state) wants to try to follow what appears to be a very fine educational model in Finland, then so be it.

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But you overlook one thing...

by AnsuGisalas In reply to No, "that could never wor ...

Norway does it like you do, more or less. Performance based.
And they're probably even more homogenic than the Finns are.
Yet they achieve comparable results to the USA.

So, this is less likely to be about how great the Finnish system is, as to be about how plumb useless the system that everybody else uses is.

In a nutshell, you don't have to copy the Finnish system, just realize that there's room for improvement and start experimenting.

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As a taxpaying non-parent, I don't get the advantages of local control

by CharlieSpencer In reply to No, "that could never wor ...

"To think the same kinds of social structure would work in a more diverse, and much larger country with a population of over 300 million is naive."

Don't all students need the same core knowledge whether they live in WA or FL? Sure, there's no need for ME to teach TX history, but aren't math and Spanish and biology the same across state lines? Does chemistry work differently in WV than in NM, and is the need to teach it any more or less? Wouldn't it make hiring easier if a high school diploma represented the same skills and knowledge regardless of what state issued it?

I don't have kids, so I've never pursued this in detail. As a taxpayer, I've always wondered what made having 50 different state policies or even thousands of different local ones preferable to one set of standards nationwide.

Nothing in the above questions is intended to indicate I support or oppose any or all CURRENT federal education polices.

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Local control is great

by AnsuGisalas In reply to As a taxpaying non-parent ...

for when you want your child to learn Creationism instead of critical thinking...

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critical thinking?

by john.a.wills In reply to Local control is great

With good instruction in the relevant biological facts that will certainly lead you to evolution of most species rather than their special creation, but I fear that most children are taught evolution with as little critical thinking as some are taught special creation. Logically, after all, those are not the only two options, but few seem to see that. Furthermore, the word "creation" has a theological meaning distinct from the biological meaning, but some people (some evolutionists and some special-creationists) **** up when you point that out. How do Finnish children do on these matters?

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More importantly what happens when

by HAL 9000 Moderator In reply to critical thinking?

Some Bright Spark in the Southern States decides that the Civil War wasn't actually fought along the lines in Established History but was nothing more than the Poor North Suppressing the then Rich South and that they still are. They can push for a 2 State Solution where the South is another Country and they can return to their Tried & True Ways.

When you allow any Local Person/s to make decisions on the Education Syllabus you run the risk of their Pet Projects being pushed to the detriment of everything.

Even now there are many people who proudly boast that they distrust all Science but at the same time insist on using the products of that same science. What they are actually saying is that Science is great when it agrees with me and totally unacceptable and should be derided when I don't like what it's telling me. That is hardly rational or sustainable.

But it is Local Control.


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I'm pretty sure

by boxfiddler Moderator In reply to critical thinking?

Philosophy, Logic, and Critical Thought need to be returned to the curriculum. They seem to be in short supply.

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If you read the language used in "Science 4 for christian schools"

by AnsuGisalas In reply to critical thinking?

you can't help but notice that, at every turn, asking questions and applying critical thinking is both explicitly and implicitly discouraged.
So, no, children in normal schools are not instructed with as little critical thinking as are pupils in pro-"controversy" schools.

Why they need to dumb down their children if their beliefs are so worthwhile, I cannot understand.
But it is clear that they devote a lot of energy to killing off the naturally inquisitive curiosity of their children.

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What does that have to do

by boxfiddler Moderator In reply to If you read the language ...

with what I said? Believe, having taught at a local community college, the lack of Critical Thinking, Logic, Philosophy, in earlier years, whether Christian schools or Public, is sorely lacking. Outside the totally shit pay, it was the bane of my teaching existence.

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