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  • #2274021

    MCDST is Microsoft for real?

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    by rr-travis ·

    I was looking at the Microsoft site today and came across the requirements for the Microsoft certified desktop support Tech. I see that they replicated the information needed for your client operating system exams (70-210 ect) and add another test for basic support of MS office.

    Who would hire someone with this cert and why? Really is Microsoft so desparate to increase profits that they will create such a worthless cert? The A+ exam covers support of windows O/S and most home users can install and configure Office isnt this just overkill? And how will this effect those of us with higher level certs from Microsoft. Will these exams count for your MSCA/MCSE and therefore devaluate the cert?

    Maybe I’m going overboard and dont fully understand the market’s needs but I think this cert is a real joke.

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    • #2726899

      $$$$$$$$$

      by djent ·

      In reply to MCDST is Microsoft for real?

      Certs are a cash cow. Any other questions?

      • #2700018

        CERTS NOT WORTH A CENT WITHOUT A COMPANY TO HIRE YOU

        by kphillips ·

        In reply to $$$$$$$$$

        THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I MEAN, I SEE ALOT OF PEOPLE WITH CERTS WITHOUT A JOB. I HAVE SEARCHED ON COMPUTER JOB ONLINE, AND THEY ARE FULL OF CERTIFIED PEOPLE THAT CANNOT FIND JOBS…MY OPINION IS THAT MAINLY COMPANIES THAT NEED IT PERSONNEL DONT PAY CRAP AND NO ONE WANTS TO WORK FOR PENNIES INSTEAD OF DOLLARS! I REALLY DONT NEED CERTS. I NEED A PSYCHOLOGIST TO HELP ME GET MY MANAGEMENT TO REALIZE HOW STUPID THEY ARE FOR NOT REALIZING THE POTENTIAL THEY HAVE WITH ME AS AN EMPLOYEE…AND NOT COMPENSATING ME FOR MY ABILTIES. SAME OLD STORY, AS LONG AS THE SYSTEM IS UP AND RUNNING, THEY DONT SEE WHAT IT TAKES TO KEEP IT THAT WAY, THEY THINK IT JUST RUNS BY ITSELF!
        K.PHILLIPS

        • #2701742

          Help in Job Market and with Current Employer

          by grover99 ·

          In reply to CERTS NOT WORTH A CENT WITHOUT A COMPANY TO HIRE YOU

          What would also help you is to fully develop other skills, such as learning to use proper sentences, capital letters and punctuation. Your communication skills are what makes the impression at the interview, what gets your r?sum? past HR and on to the next level of review, and what sets you apart from the other propellor-heads on a day-to-day basis once you have the job.

        • #2717768

          All about selling yourself

          by zackp ·

          In reply to Help in Job Market and with Current Employer

          I totaly agree with most of your post. Certifications do not mean you know any more then someone with out certs. It just means that you have drive and are willing to go the extra step. All certs do I believe is get you an interview. The rest is on you and how you sell yourself.

        • #3347501

          totally Agree

          by rob.lay ·

          In reply to All about selling yourself

          I totally agree, i think certs are very valuable if your at the start of your career, I think they play a part in giving you some background konwledge and allow you to make better decisions as you get more experience but it takes a long time to get enough experience for people to look at employing you on experience alone, till that point certs play an important part in getting you onto the short lists for jobs, once thats done then I agree, its down to the individual to sell themselves

        • #2701134

          Without a cert you’re going nowhere

          by kirk, really! ·

          In reply to CERTS NOT WORTH A CENT WITHOUT A COMPANY TO HIRE YOU

          I put off getting certified for years, then one day I found myself laid off. I have sent over 300 resumes out to company looking for Systems or Network Engineers, but without a Microsoft, Cisco or other certification most of the time you won’t even get a reply. Location means a lot also. Some areas of the U.S. can’t get enough certified engineers, but they are not budging from their ‘must be certified’ position.

          I finally decided on a change of career and got out of the computer business altogether. I havn’t worked late nights or weekend since I changed. I love it.

        • #2699404

          Not really….

          by timbo zimbabwe ·

          In reply to Without a cert you’re going nowhere

          I haven’t certified for ANYTHING and am able to get plenty of IT work. Of course, having 15 years of stable, verifiable work experience/history haven’t hurt me, either…. 😉

        • #3238143

          he said…

          by xalorous ·

          In reply to Not really….

          beginning of career. I am mid career. Four and a half years supporting NT4 domains, servers and workstations of almost all versions of Windows.

          I’ve been laid off for 11 months now (2 months getting reaclimated to being in the States, 3 months helping my wife get over medical problem, 6 months looking for junior windows administrator position.)

          It is a predictable pattern. I send the resume. 90% of the time I never hear anything about it unless I call them back, then usually ‘sorry position filled’ or ‘your qualifications did not meet our requirements, we’ll file your resume’. If I do hear from them, the recruiter or HR person calls/emails me and we discuss my experience. Being truthful, I say, “No, I do not have paid experience with Active Directory.” Or, “No I do not have my MCSE.”

          So what do I do? After 5 months looking for that mythical junior sysadmin position (which I can do, no problem, no doubt in my mind), I have given up, changing to desktop support, which I am overqualified for, but I can’t eat my computers and neither can my family.

          Now I am considering getting an MCSE and heading back to the SysAdmin jobs, because even senior desktop support analysts do not make enough money to keep a family happy.

          I have one problem that keeps me from getting a job. I am not good at selling myself. I hate it.

        • #3083113

          Just curious what did you change your career to?

          by lsmith1989 ·

          In reply to Without a cert you’re going nowhere

          Just curious what did you change your career to? I’m in the middle of an early mid-life crisis and am not sure if I want to stay in IT or not. It just isn’t satisfying to me anymore and I dont have any passion left in me. Yet I have a wife and 2 kids. The wife does not make a whole lot and I feel it is my duty to stay at this decent paying job even though I hate it.

          Should I self-sacrifice and bear and grin it for my family’s sake or does it seem selfish of me to take a huge paycut and look for something that I enjoy doing?

        • #3238146

          rude post

          by xalorous ·

          In reply to CERTS NOT WORTH A CENT WITHOUT A COMPANY TO HIRE YOU

          Take the caps lock off, I didn’t even read the post. I refuse to try to decipher it. Not so bad with fixed font, but that’s atrocious.

      • #2701219

        Reply To: MCDST is Microsoft for real?

        by the admiral ·

        In reply to $$$$$$$$$

        Not any more. Companies have had their fill with paper techs of no substance. So now they are requiring satisfactory job history with the cert in order to get the big money.

        • #2712232

          Who’s Driving The Ship

          by dmwoodcock ·

          In reply to Reply To: MCDST is Microsoft for real?

          It is not the “Paper Techs” fault that the recruiters are unable to decide between substance and no substance. You could apply that logic to the new MBA’s or any Degree. A degree or certification means hopefully you spent the required time and passed the tests. Most certs and degrees I have seen had a date on them. Now if this is new technolgy and only a few hold that degree or cert then if you want them then you would pay the price or you just keep walking. Maybe some of the decision makers should go back to college themselves and see what has changed in the last decade or so.

        • #3309649

          Hmm..

          by jwalker ·

          In reply to Reply To: MCDST is Microsoft for real?

          Thing is though, if they dont cost you anything.. and they can benefit you.. whats the biggie? I mean you dont need you school qualifications for everything over here in the UK, but its good to have them and they dont cost a penny! something for nothing is better than nothing, for.. erm.. nothing?

    • #2726768

      MS has inundated its own market

      by oz_media ·

      In reply to MCDST is Microsoft for real?

      By pumping out MCSE’s and having such low costs for training that Welfare covers MCSE certs, there are just too many MCSE’s already and the cert as already been degraded. THere are so many MCSE’s who really don’t even have a clue that it hurts those that actually do and lowers their income levels.

      I think this is just another cash grab by MS, as well as a way to make it easier to generate more Microsoft junkies. MCSE MASS training by Microsoft has heavily flooded the market with MS servers. This has raised hardware and software investments for companies, lowered security and increased software sales.

      When a company is building it’s network, it looks for affordable IT support. Novell and Linux techs still have a higher salary range and therefore a young company is going to be mroe apt to hire an MCSE. You hire the MCSE and ask for network recommendations, what will you get? Microsoft servers, desktop OS’s, print servers, Exchange etc. Three times the hardware, three times the licence costs, three times the staff needed to maintain it etc. BUT, it was recommended by a professional.

      So IMHO, I think that MS is using easy certification as a way to market it’s products without spending marketing dollars. Why advertise more when everyone and their uncle is certified and recommending your product?

      MS wants EVERYONE in the world to support and recommend MS products, this will eventually be the death if MS IT careers unless you are focused on security which is already a HUGE part of any MS IT team.

      It’s only a matter of time before MS certs are completely worthless (MCSE is getting there fast) and everyone will wither know better than to use MS or will be presold on MS solutions through inundated training.

      Training or promoting your product? It’s a fine line in Redmond.

      • #2726683

        without a clue

        by secure_lockdown9 ·

        In reply to MS has inundated its own market

        f.y.i. there are also:…..
        many CCIE’s with out a clue.
        many CISSP’s without a clue
        many MBA’s without a clue
        many BSC’s without a clue
        many politicians without a clue.

        and your point is?

        there is always going to be the ones that are good at what they are doing. and the ones that are useless at what they are doing.

        • #2724492

          My point is

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to without a clue

          MCSE’s are a dime a dozen,it is such a cheap cert even wlefare is paying for it and many people are just skiping through to get a good paycheck with absolutely no intent on becoming serious about IT.

          The other degrees you have mentioned are not cheap (here anyway)they are not a lure to make a better living, they are for those that are quite serious about IT.

          Certainly all fields have good and bad techs, I know first hand from almost being killed by apprentices in shops that have no idea of safety.

          The MCSE will soon be available in a box of cocopuffs, as soon as they get rid of all those Rollercoaster Tycoon CD’s.

          I have met CNE’s that will work for less than $120.00 but they usually don’t hold jobs long as the price doesn’t mean work for less, it means work longer and end up costing the client more.

          This is just another cert from Microsoft to ctreate more Microsoft prroduct salesmen, perhaps because the MCSE’s are too many and people are starting to doubt the effectiveness of the cert itself. Havin a different cert sounds fresh and untapped.

        • #2726592

          scour & lurk

          by secure_lockdown9 ·

          In reply to My point is

          you should scour and lurk around some closed security sites/forums. there are a dime a dozem CISSP’s and wanna be CISSP’s all without and clue and just getting the cert. in the high hopes of making a quick big buck. has nothing to do with being an industry professional.

          ignorant, greedy & stupid people are not just reserved for the MCSE. 🙂

        • #2701795

          I want one of those

          by bigdee ·

          In reply to scour & lurk

          After 10 years in IT (and now being made redundant) I finally convinced my company to send me on MCP training. I don’t know how cheap it is in the US but over the pond is costs ?1500 for a one week course. I have been applying for jobs but because I have no qualification I can’t get an interview. It doesn’t matter about my 10 years in various WinOS flavours, and MS Office to match. Companies over here just want to see an MCP. If they do start giving them away over there, can someone send me a few?

        • #2701092

          To the loo with em

          by kbarry ·

          In reply to I want one of those

          If companies will not hire you because of an image associated with titles, make your own.
          Start your own support company.
          Become a president or partner of this company.
          Business owners and human resource people will look at you differently and will often talk to you as a peer or move you up the food chain to sell your services.
          Become a Microsoft Partner.
          This alone will do two things for you.
          1. Stop the questions about certifications from the people who dont really understand what they mean and simple ask because it is a buzzword.
          2. Cause the people who do understand to ask you questions about your services and skills rather than XYZ cert.
          You know what you can do.
          You can identify the people who can do what you can’t.
          That in itself is a valuable service to the businesses that need technical support or consulting.
          You can do it.

        • #2701672

          The answer is simple my friend

          by reddawg ·

          In reply to scour & lurk

          If you want someone that knows what they are doing; insist they have a CCSE. If you want your staff to look impressive with a bunch of meaningless letters insist on MS Certs.

          I maintain my CCSE and refuse to work for less than $185 an hour. I do not accept 9 to 5; I consult only. I find I often have to subcontract to have someone on standby. My employee?s must have CCNE as well as MCSE.

        • #2701771

          That maybe so But!

          by dfritzke ·

          In reply to My point is

          I feel that my MCSE is not worthless. and I encourage all of my stff to go for the extra certs. I believe it shows that the individual is commited enough to go an extra step and make an investment, even if it is a small one. I find out very quickly in the interview process which MCSE is worth their weight.

        • #2701659

          Interview is key…

          by blarman ·

          In reply to That maybe so But!

          The biggest problem is that most companies hire based on keyword scans in the resume or CV, not in honest-to-goodness skill-based interviews. Or they use the non-technical HR people to hire for a technical position. As long as this practice continues, there will always be paper-certs who get the jobs which should go to experienced people.
          The problem is that many companies don’t have a good hiring process – they rely on computers to do more than they should. While computers can do some objective screening, it is the HR policies regarding interviews which are the most to blame. Employees should be treated as an investment, not as a commodity or renewable resource.

        • #2701212

          Reply To: MCDST is Microsoft for real?

          by the admiral ·

          In reply to That maybe so But!

          Your opinion is in the minority. I can tell you stories of a person who was a MSCE who did not know what RAID was or how to set it up, but that is irrelevent.

          You think that going the extra mile is to spit out book knowledge is not a good enough answer. If a person is qualified enough to do the job, then let them do their job. Encourage them to diversify, but to downgrade them to a MS Cert, then you are causing their own death when they move on.

        • #2716354

          I have to agree with the Admiral Again

          by seanc ·

          In reply to Reply To: MCDST is Microsoft for real?

          I was made redundant 2 years ago. I only had NT4 OS Certs but decided to complete the Win2k MCSE.
          When I had completed it was my phone ringing off the hook ?. Certainly not… This did not change my situation in the slightest. I was still jobless. This made me feel that my MCSE should only be used to start barbecues !!. Anyway, I have seen the light and 12 months later enjoying my role as a Cisco/Security Engineer with meaningful certifications and expertise to boot. I will however keep my MS Certs current as they do not require much effort.

        • #2708101

          MCSE can’t set up RAID?

          by vic ·

          In reply to Reply To: MCDST is Microsoft for real?

          MCSE who can’t set up RAID? Well, that’s somewhat shocking. That’s really a matter of relativity and probably more minority than majority. I know tons of guys who are older than me and have worked in IT for 20 years or more. They can configure RAID with their eyes closed, and do all kinds of PC troubleshooting and setup with their eyes closed. But ask em to troubleshoot DNS (and i don’t mean looking to see if the pc is pointing to the right dns server either). I mean troubleshooting replication, query performance, etc. Ask em to do something like that and they have no clue where to even start. I’d like to challenge all of the people who so boldly claim that “certs are worthless” and make other comments like that to take exam 70-216 or take some of the free practice tests. When you do that, then come back and tell me if it seemed like a push over to ya.

        • #3310298

          How about this?

          by johnsmith ·

          In reply to MCSE can’t set up RAID?

          I got my MCSE without taking a single class or practice test. If you truly know your stuff, the exams are not hard. The reason the certs are basically worthless is that all it takes to pass a test is going to a braindump site or an MCSE “bootcamp” that teaches you how to pass the tests but doesn’t really teach you anything useful.

          You only think certs are useful because you have one. I take it from your comments that you passed 70-216? Since you imply it was a hard test, there is zero chance I would ever turn you loose on my network.

        • #2701210

          CCIE’s without a clue, how you figure?

          by tomsal ·

          In reply to without a clue

          Unless they changed the standards for the CCIE cert…how does one pass that without a clue?

          Isn’t it still like a few DAYS of hands on testing with simulated network problems that you need to pass?

          You can’t really fake passing a LIVE simulated network test that is hands on and you have no clue what problems the simulation will throw at you (because its random).

          There’s quite a lot of studying and other hands on labs, if I remember correctly from my cisco seminar, that are involved on the road to CCIE.

          As far as I know its still to this day one of the most difficult certifications to earn in the industry.

          You can’t “braindump” your way to a CCIE is my main point.

        • #2701137

          Correct – CCIE is the toughest cert around

          by worldbfree ·

          In reply to CCIE’s without a clue, how you figure?

          ” Interested in CCIE certification? You should know that:

          CCIE is the most respected high-level certification, recognized worldwide as the “doctorate” of networking. (See Awards & Recognitions).

          Certified CCIEs are a highly-select group. Less than 3% of Cisco certified professionals become CCIEs. (You can also find out about Cisco’s entry-level Career Certifications, CCNA and CCNP).

          Passing the exams is not easy. Hands-on experience is the best preparation.”

          http://www.cisco.com/en/US/learning/le3/ccie/index.html

      • #3174295

        Sorry but your story just doesn’t jibe with reality

        by philbert66 ·

        In reply to MS has inundated its own market

        I got my MCSE back in ’99. I left my dead-end state job and went right to work in IT, and am making a WHOLE lot more than I was then.

        A couple years ago, I started takng an interest in Linux…installng and implenting open source solutions, a little here, a little there. After a couple of false starts as well as some successful solutions, some of which are still in use, overall, I would *not* take my company down the open source road in any of our major systems. We used a linux mail server for years. Now we use exchange, and everyone is a LOT happier.

        I can support Linux well enough, I know how to back it up, connect it, get users using it (as a server, not a desktop OS – that’ll never happen with users using office and autocad) but face it, because you KNOW it’s true: the small business world is – and should be – a microsoft world.

        So, if I kept on with my enthusiasm for linux, who would support those systems when I’m gone? Who are they going to hire if I leave? Probably another MCSE, that’s who.

        He (or she) would quickly switch them *back* to windows. He’ll retool and migrate and otherwise disassemble until the windows logo reappears on every server. All the while, saying things like, “boy, that last guy sure didn’t do you any favors, we’re going to need to drop some serious cash right away on Microsoft products and CALS.”

        There are two points:
        I’m not doing my employer any favors if I forsee this scenario and do not prevent it. Better and *safer* to set them up with a solid microsoft solution now.

        And secondly, I’ve worked with windows, and more recently with linux and all manner of open-source solutions, all in a small-business setting, and I conclude that Microsoft’s got a great server product, far more manageable, and far more likely to survive an IT turn-over; I’m far more willing to put Windows into service than linux.

        So what’s that say about MCSE being a marketing method? I think that opinion is a simplistic and cynical point of view. The MCSEs I know are fully engaged in keeping their employers’ interests up and running. They were hired into a Microsoft-run shop, and they make it hum.

        If linux takes over the world and you can’t look in any direction without seeing little red hats all over everything, the RHCPs will rule.

        But for now, at least for small businesses, MCSEs rule. As an MCSE who is making a decent living because Microsoft makes good stuff, I say thank goodness for Microsoft. Seriously.

        Phil Lewis, MCSE

    • #2701775

      MS Certs – are not needed

      by unhappyuser ·

      In reply to MCDST is Microsoft for real?

      I’ve said it before and will say it again. Microsoft Certifications are, in most part, worthless and a joke. I’ve seen countless people memorize, but not know, the information to pass the tests. They get out in the real world and can’t perform simple tasks such as setting up a group policy for an OU. There are those that learn by doing, not reading. Unless you have A LOT of money to take all of the courses and set up a full lab at home it’s impossible to learn by doing. The tests are designed for the “big corporation”. What about the little guy? Some organizations have no need for TS or CS (and never will) yet the techs are required to know this inside and out. It’s a waste of time and money and in a world where most techs’ time is stretched, time is precious.

      Microsoft is also coming out with software so fast that by the time most techs get done their training and pass the tests for their Certs, it’s time to start all over!

      Save some money by buying the key resources and doing it yourself. Most IT can but are being misled by MS that they need to be MS Certified. MS is wrong and doing it to keep Bill Gates happy.

      • #2701772

        What you say may be true..

        by shippauf ·

        In reply to MS Certs – are not needed

        However.. I’m not sure about the area where you live and work, but where I’m from, every ad for an IT job opening concludes with an MCSA/MCSE either being recommended or in most cases it is required. And most of these jobs aren’t even for an admin but more for a technician position. I am currently an Asst. Network Admin with no certs. My company (NT shop at the time) had an extensive test I had to pass to even be considered and I was the only one that did pass it, so here I am. But I’m not all that positive I’d even be considered at a company w/o some sort of certification. So I’m starting an MCP/MCSA/MCSE track later this year.

      • #2701661

        You are a bit a clueless I’m afraid…

        by tomsal ·

        In reply to MS Certs – are not needed

        First, yes I am MCSE certified, and I actually agree with you that MS certs are basically a joke.

        HOWEVER the rest of the points in your post are not true.

        You give the one that Microsoft is the one who is a joke for thinking people need their certs. The fact of the matter is, Microsoft is a business. All businesses have one common basic goal — turn a profit. MS is offering products, a cert program to them is a product. Blame the CIO’s, the HR Managers, etc. for requiring folks to have certs before they hire them.

        If the cert gets you a job its worth something. If it doesn’t, its just paper.

        That’s what people miss the whole point of.

        later.

        • #2701209

          Reply To: MCDST is Microsoft for real?

          by the admiral ·

          In reply to You are a bit a clueless I’m afraid…

          Not nessacarily. I look at the experience of a person before I hit any certifications. If they don’t have the experience to match the certs, then they get a Thank you letter, if they do have the experience then they get the interview.

        • #2701153

          Well that’s what I meant! lol.

          by tomsal ·

          In reply to Reply To: MCDST is Microsoft for real?

          What you stated is exactly how I feel and I think its how it should be — experience first THEN look at certs.

          However my post was relating to the sad reality that some companies actively look for and require you to have such and such a cert. Hard to believe I know, even for myself I find it ridiculous.

          But my base point of the original post is no matter how much you or me or anyone likes or dislikes a cert, think it does or does not have value — we really don’t set the true value of a cert for any individual…the prospective employer does.

          If some crack pot of an CIO has this notion “No I will only hire someone with the paper!” then there you go in that case certs carry great value.

          At another company where the manager goes “No I want experience, certs are just extra fluff”…then the cert has no value.

          Sooo..its all about getting the job which in turn is all about getting PAID!

          All that considered — why do I pursue certs when I truly don’t believe in them myself? Because it increases my chances of better pay or even just getting hired over someone who doesn’t have certs.

          (granted I have experience too — 10 years professionally and twice that long hacking, learning and tearing things apart and putting them back together again).

      • #2701637

        I have to disagree with you completely

        by tfenner ·

        In reply to MS Certs – are not needed

        Although I agree that some pass the test with retaining little, I have gone through the majority of the MSCE training courses and have taken away many new tips, tricks and procedures to use at my company.

        Also, I was once a non-certified employee as well. When I attempted to get a raise, it was shot down, more or less because I did not have any credentials. After passing one test, becoming an MCP, I recieved a substantial 18% raise. After getting my MCSA, I got another 15% raise and now am making the midrange salary for my position.

        To say that microsoft certs are useless is a major overstatement. At the very least, they show you have the desire to at least pretend your know something. At the most, it can get you a ton of cash and respect from a company that uses HR analyst reports to determine your value.

        My recommendation, get the cert if it directly applies to your position and the company you work for or want to work for, values that cert.

      • #3308083

        My take on certs

        by mf77777 ·

        In reply to MS Certs – are not needed

        I started in IT at the end of the bubble. Guys with and without certs were already losing their jobs. I had about 1 year of hardware experience working on returned lease equipment. The only relevant education that I had was from instructor led courses that I was taking towards an MCSE. I managed to get my foot in the door with the MCP cert that I had. They gave me a 90-day evaluation period. The job was desktop support. I am still there today and am the Senior Admin.
        Since then I have taken other certification tests, but mostly spent time on my own reading tech books and working in my home lab.
        I have worked with degreed professionals, MCSE’s, and guys that just learned it on their own. Taken individually, none of these things mean anything. Cert, degree, or Captain Crunch IT badge, it comes down to this:

        There are 3 types of people in this business

        1. The 8-5 Admin. This person does their job and generally makes everything work, even if they didn’t do it in the best way. They go home and watch their big TV.
        2. The paper Admin. This person crammed to get the cert, is “buzzword compliant”, and useless in the data center. These people weed themselves out.
        3. The Network Admin. This person spends time reading technical articles and books. They keep up on industry trends. They strive to do it the best way possible. They understand that a person in IT must change as IT changes. They evaluate countless software programs, looking for something that can do it better. Their day does not end at 5:00. They are never satisfied with what they know. Their passion for the industry creates opportunities for their employers.

        A cert by itself does not define a person?s ability. Certs (and the knowledge gained while going for them) coupled with experience enhances our abilities.

        One more thing, if it weren?t for my worthless MCP cert, I would have never gotten into the industry. I would have never been able to manage servers such as Exchange and SQL. I would not have had the opportunity to learn Solaris and Linux. When you look at it that way, that worthless cert was priceless.

        The next time you’re interviewing a candidate, ask yourself what kind of admin are they.

    • #2701773

      Experience

      by wisdomrocks ·

      In reply to MCDST is Microsoft for real?

      As someone who hires PC Techs I can say that I give more weight to experience than to certs. We had a network admin who had his CNE, MCSE and CCNA. He did not know how to add a user to the domain. He was not able to set up a printer on Netware 4.0. He was a lame duck who collected a fat paycheck for 2 years and his only claim to fame was keeping virus updates loaded on the exchange server. He is just an example of the lack of experience I have seen after my manager has hired certified network admins. His best network admins have no certs at all. They have tons of common sense and the ability to figure things out on the fly. They also have excellent customer service skills. Those are the things that are important. There is not certification for those things.

      • #2701762

        You need the interview

        by leeg ·

        In reply to Experience

        I agree completely about experience. IMHO [as I only have very few certs 😉 ] Experience is key, however can only be truly demonstrated in an interview. The only reason I even went through the process of the certs route was to ‘get my foot in the door’. The number of advertised vacancies that require the cert just for an interview is astounding. I remember going to 1 interview (a couple of years ago)and all the employer was interested in was the certs I had. I believe that was why I got the 3 month contract just because of the certs and not my actual 10+ years experience at the time.

      • #2701750

        Listen to Queengeek

        by paulyc64 ·

        In reply to Experience

        Her post is very well said and it is indicative of technical hiring managers around the world.

      • #2699570

        This is what I don’t get about the whole thing..

        by tomsal ·

        In reply to Experience

        “We had a network admin who had his CNE, MCSE and CCNA. He did not know how to add a user to the domain.” …. I’m sorry but I can’t believe this for a minute, how can you possibly not know how to add a user to a domain after going through the study process. Even someone who cheats with braindumps would at least gleam that much knowledge in the research process.

        I think there is some exaggeration going on here.

        If I’m wrong than the only explaination is that this person was a retard.

        And in either case what tweaks me with hiring managers who complain about “I had this guy who had all these certs and blah blah blah” — who is really the fool here, the stunod who can’t spell MCSE after he cheated his way through earning one or the manager who realises how he performs on the job and doesn’t call his bluff ON THE SPOT and fire his arse?

        Another thing on experience…you can’t just go by experience you know why? There are different qualities of experience. If you want to get anal — if someone’s experience is trial and error on everything they do 50 times before they fix each problem…that’s not something that impresses me all that much.

        The experience you want is the kind you get from learning from your mistakes and constantly improving the quality and efficiency of solving the problem.

        I guess I get bent out of shape because I was in the field , from doing grunt IT jobs to network admin duties for about 6 years before I even went for my first cert. So now I hear so much negative about them its like my work meant nothing.

      • #3082407

        Experience is the key

        by exnav29 ·

        In reply to Experience

        I would have to agree with the majority of the posts, in that experience is the key. I am currently studying for MCDST certification but only after having been in the IT field for over 15 years. In that time I have never been out of work and have been fortunate to receive excellent pay and benefits with each of my employers.

        This will be my very first certification. The one key I have always noted when working is that the employers placed more emphasis on experience. When the network is down or a user is having an issue I have never had an employer ask me what certifications I have. They have always asked the same question “Can you fix it?” Luckily I have been able to each time.

        I once worked a Network Admin who was very good at what he did. He was also an MCSE (One of the first I might add) and when I spoke with him about getting his certifications I asked him how did he study. He told me that he did not really study. He had years of experience prior to even walking in to take the test, and he simply read up on a few books to refine himself for the test and he passed. Talking with him inspired me to be the same. I wanted to be able to walk into the test (as I do with my job) and just do it. That for me was the real test of whether or not I have what it takes and if I am as good as I think I am.

        The studying that I have been doing is basically a rehash of my experience from the past. But there have been a few points where I said “Oh, I did not know that” or “Gee, I wished I had known this little tidbit of information back when this issue cropped up in the past.”

        So, my advice for anyone who wants to gain certifications is to get in there and get your hands dirty and do the job. If you cannot find a job then work on your own. Us “old-timers” can tell you that our first experiences with computing was more of a hobby in the beginning. So, make your own network at home and administer it. If you don’t have loads of money to spend on equipment all the better because then you will have to cobble it together and make it run. Ahhh, true experience is not only the key but a lot of fun as well.

    • #2701759

      Nope!

      by gothicscott ·

      In reply to MCDST is Microsoft for real?

      Let’s face it this cert track is losing steam and everyone except Microshaft is willing to pronounce it dead. MCSE, MCP MCT, MCSA and now the MCDST ? Gimme a break! Microshaft is nothing but a cash hungry, marketing driven machine that cares little about quality,security and customer commitment like its MCSE and MCPs. Long gone are the days when like my fellow minions, I would best myself senseless with exam preparation so I could be a “certified expert” on their latest bloatware. No more ..this company has done everything to cause me to lose interest in cerrts while ailenating me nd lots of other MCSE’s.
      Wanna fix it ? Here’s a few things to get you started:
      1. Stop nickel and diming me. I am also an MCT I have to pay a fee to keep my cert.
      2. What ever happed to the free technet subscriptions for MCSEs?
      3. Create COMPLETE course content that address the exams. Read the disclaimer in the front of Microsoft Official Curriculum Textbooks. It tells the poor sap who just signed up for the course and bought the $200 book that together they are not enough to pass their OWN EXAMS! Does this make sense?
      4. Stop and think for a minute what the certification used to mean. Now, it’s a joke.
      Prestige needs to come back to the program..

      Long live Linux ..!

    • #2701754

      Please don’t waste time on this Cert

      by paulyc64 ·

      In reply to MCDST is Microsoft for real?

      As the Desktop Support Manager for a major financial firm, I can say that this cert has little to no value to me as a hiring manager.
      In general, as certs go, NOTHING can take the place of experience in the field. I would sooner hire a desktop support tech with 2 years of experience than one with little to no experience and an MCSE/MCSA. With that said, if an employed desktop support tech desired certification, I would steer them towards the MCSE or MCSA and not the MCDST.

    • #2701734

      Bosses?

      by madmac52 ·

      In reply to MCDST is Microsoft for real?

      Now in my 4th career, I have been working hands on in networking for over 8 years. Currently, my “boss” demands I get an updated MCSE because some outside consultant said the company needed a MCSE as system admin. Not withstanding I designed, built and configured the entire network, migrated it from NT to 2000, Exchange 5.5 to 2000, and have never had any downtime, I know nothing because I don’t have a MCSE?

      Certs are just expensive paper on the wall, but if it keeps me doing what I enjoy, so be it.

      • #2701729

        Get a degree

        by hig ·

        In reply to Bosses?

        Many accredited colleges offer degrees in IT these days. As a CNE, MCSE, CCNP, and BS with 16years experience I believe it is the BS and the experience that will carry me forward. I saw the value of certs degrade over time. My first cert was the CNE in ’93, at the time the only major cert out there (that and Vines, remember Vines?). Shortly thereafter MS offered the MCSE and it was slippery downhill slope for the relevance of certs after that. So you want to be an IT professional… get a degree from an accredited university and keep your axe sharp.

      • #2701722

        Reality

        by technogal ·

        In reply to Bosses?

        MadMac and Queengeek are right! Experience (even at home and volunteer/family work) and education are the best things you can do for yourself to advance. I’m sure people will disagree with me, as we all have our own individual experiences and feelings. I am a 38yr old women, who has had to work full time in office administration AND go to school full time to finally get into the IT field 3 years ago. My current boss wanted someone who had some education, but most importantly was hungry to learn and passionate about the job. I have beens steadily learning and getting certs the last 3 years ago. Currently working on my CNE5/6. I am NOT doing hours of self-study for a #$%# piece of paper. I am doing it to augment my experience and continue to show my employer I will be a profitable employee.

        I know everyone is up in arms about the value of the MCSE/MCSA/MCDST. Just do a google on MCSE certification and look at all the companies willing to sell “braindumps”. It’s the hottest one out there because MS salesman have done such a “wonderful” job of convincing the public that Microsoft is the best OS/NOS to have. No matter your feelings on MS, you have to admit that.

        As IT professionals, we know what it takes to be a good tech/admin/etc, just as Queengeek said. Please be a little kinder to people who are using “welfare” to get a certification. Everyone has to start somewhere. Weren’t you new and inexperienced at one time too?! Didn’t you want to learn everything you could to get where you are today?

        Thanks for reading this long post, just wanted to give a different opinion!

      • #2717771

        Value of certs?

        by billsuggs ·

        In reply to Bosses?

        I currently have no certification, but I am interested in them more for my personal information. I have no formal training in computing but have learned a bit on my own. My work (Community Hospital) is changing to a digital, filmless radiology system and I feel that I need to know more. Are the cert exam prep programs good for learning networking and support skills that will make me a better tech? There are no local (within 50 mile) training programs that I can attend, so I am looking at certification as a learning tool.

        • #3304529

          Comptia and Microsoft

          by brichardson ·

          In reply to Value of certs?

          The value of a cert is extrensic. You cannot buy anything with the piece of paper but, you can have your resume more carefully considered when you have credentials listed…despite what the nay-sayers claim. Your continuing experience coupled with A+, Network+, and/or any combination of MCP certs toward a MCSA or MCSA will look good.
          As far as being a better tech, never stop tinkering, toying with, and trying different things. That experience you get is invaluable.
          Striking that balance of experience with TESTED certification that you have worked to learn some skills is the most harmonious place to be.
          With all the experience, you can still get fired or layed off and what do you have? Your employer can take your job but, the experience and the paper(s) leave with you.

    • #2701728

      They do have a measure of value!

      by dmccaul ·

      In reply to MCDST is Microsoft for real?

      Look certs are the same as degrees. They show that you can jump through a predetermined set of hoops. They also verify that you have been exposed to and possibly have retained a portion of a given body of knowledge. They are not a replacement for real life experience. They are merely one aspect of a technician?s portfolio that shows they can be trained and have an understanding of a subject. Application of that knowledge is an entirely different thing. That is were experience at least demonstrates a practical application of knowledge.

      A cert alone will rarely get you a job, but a cert and 5 years experience is better than just 5 years experience.

      • #2701712

        I Agree

        by esummers ·

        In reply to They do have a measure of value!

        I have been in IT for only 4 years (at 41 y/o), and my boss has told me that I was hired more for my communication skills and customer service than my (very small) IT skills. That said, I’m working on an MCSA/CCNA track for the simple fact that I’ve got ALOT of catching up to do. What ever anyone else does to pass the exam, I know I want the certification to give me a base of knowledge to draw on. My boss knows this as well. I also happen to be working on learning Linux, so I won’t be just a one-trick Microsoft pony. It’s just like buying an antique — do you want it only as an “investment” or do you truly value what it is? For those of us who want a structure of knowledge to actually learn and put to use, certification of any kind holds great value.

        • #2701650

          hoops=money

          by ansonrah ·

          In reply to I Agree

          When i hire, i’ve always looked at some accrediation first- degree, cert, whatever. The hiring process is lengthy and expensive; i will use whatever screen is available to limit the applicant pool to likely hires. in the interview i focus on ability and experience.
          As a worker bee, i’ve often heard my peers complain about how meaningless, etc., the cert is, and how their experience is better. If that’s the case, why not just take the test and get the bucks?

      • #2699400

        Bull!

        by timbo zimbabwe ·

        In reply to They do have a measure of value!

        I’ve known too many certified engineers who were clueless when it came down to ACTUALLY doing the work. They busted their ass to pass the test, but had no real talent because they didn’t know how to think for themselves or apply what they learned.

        Microsoft certs are useless…..

    • #2701652

      Reply To: MCDST is Microsoft for real?

      by the admiral ·

      In reply to MCDST is Microsoft for real?

      I believe that most if not all certifications are worthless if you don’t have the experience to back it up.

      First, there is a poliferation of idiots out there walking around with no idea how hardware and software integrate, and believe that Microsoft’s drivers fit all. We had on here a MSCE who had a system that choked and blue screened because he didn’t install the motherboard drivers. That is a duh. You have to read the instructions from the HARDWARE MANUFACTURER.

      Second, if you do get certification you have to PROVE yourself. Because of all of the cookie-cutter MSCE/MSCA’s that are out there, the value of the Certifications have deminished greatly. So if you do get any certifications, make sure you have the experience not just the book knowledge or you will go nowhere.

      Third, A+ Certification is designed so an idiot can pass it. In the book itself, it specifically states that the test was created so any person who has 6 months of informal training can pass. You can make a 6 year old take the test and pass. My grandson who is 10 got his certification a year ago. So it is not a very high bar when it is thrown around as being important.

      Lastly, you have to understand. That when there is a no duh test out there that is used for certification, you know that someone failed it. That is the caliber of the people you fight for the $25,000 per year job.

      • #2716358

        Reply to Admiral

        by seanc ·

        In reply to Reply To: MCDST is Microsoft for real?

        You certainly are the Admiral.
        I believe the same. Certification with experience is paramount. I know that there are a few IT recruitment agencies that require that you take an online 70 + question test before being considered for an interview. This is a mixture of Microsoft/Cisco/Checkpoint etc.. If there were more of these, it will weed out those with just book knowledge from the REAL IT professionals with solid multi-vendor experience and certifications.

    • #2701647

      Certs hold plenty of Value

      by jeckles ·

      In reply to MCDST is Microsoft for real?

      It seems like a lot of you folks are very angry about this whole issue. Look, just because there are a lot of useless IT folks out there that are certified it doesn’t invalidate the Cert. I assure you there are plenty of uncertified boobs as well. I don’t think any is claiming (not even Microsoft) that the certs are a substitute for experience or a college degree. The value of the cert is too show the certified individual has been exposed to set of standards and a body of knowledge.
      I am a MCSE on WS2k3. Before I got the cert I had set up a Windows AD Domain and got it running. So why the Cert? To reinforce what I already knew and too fill in the gaps. I certainly improve my grasp of several concepts and I will apply this to my network over time.

      Sorry for being long winded but that cert was neither cheap nor easy to obtain. The value of any cert comes down to this. With out the cert I am a network administrator with 4 year of experience in a Microsoft Domain environment. With the cert I am a MSCE with 4 year of experience in a Microsoft Domain environment. What does that get me? I hope it give me a bump on the stack of resumes over the other 4 year experienced admins. It also show my company that I am dedicated to improving my skill set and finding new ways to work with evolving technologies.

      • #2712176

        HA!

        by wrap2tyt ·

        In reply to Certs hold plenty of Value

        Not putting you down for your achievments, but anyone who can read English can setup and “watch” an AD. Now, if you tell me that you setup an W2K AD with multiple domains and varied policies for different users and groups, then you have someone break it so that you can bring it back to life then maybe I can feel you, but they are teaching this stuff to high school kids now, and I don’t know anyone who is gonna let a 19 yearold with any cert anywhere near their network. As for the uncertified boobs that you mentioned, those are the ones running to get the certs. But I hear you and respect your veiw.

        • #2712029

          It’s easy…

          by jeckles ·

          In reply to HA!

          It’s easy to say anyone can set up a w2k AD domain. And if you mean by that… that anyone can install AD on server call a DC and set up some users you are right. But if you mean by that, like I did, that you set up an infrastructure using GPO’s to administer the entire domain not just control a server, that’s a little more difficult. Not only that, but we are running in a 24 hour a day manufacturing environment, where downtime cost us money, so there is no tolerance for it. If you disagree with me… cool I expect that. But please don’t imply that I’m some hack who installed dns and a server and called it a domain.

          My point remains the same … the cert can validate the experience. Not only that, but the process of getting the cert (if you don’t shortcut it) can add knowledge to your experience and give you some real depth.

          The cert by itself no good.
          The experience of the guy who is “watching” the domain. Also no good.

          If I were hiring, I’d be looking for someone who had taken on plenty of projects, implemented new technologies, and had the cert. Sure, the cert is the least valuable of three, but if I had applicants who were other wise equal, the cert would be the difference maker.

      • #3310296

        I think the reason people are angry…

        by johnsmith ·

        In reply to Certs hold plenty of Value

        is that so many hiring managers put way too much emphasis on the certs. And a cert is only as good as the people who hold it; paper MCSEs are the ones who have devalued the certs by showing that true knowledge is not a prerequisite for obtaining one.

      • #3310967

        I TOTALLY AGREE

        by figi4 ·

        In reply to Certs hold plenty of Value

        Look foks, im certified with MCAD.NET(spend a whole year looking for a job)
        but that does not mean this certs are totally useless
        it depends …..
        and the key is that we know as we go

      • #3347618

        Yes Sir, I agree 100%

        by sohohelpdesk ·

        In reply to Certs hold plenty of Value

        Jeckles, I agree with you 100%, I am working my butt off to get certed. I also realize the value of MCSE 2000 Certifications are going down. The 2003 Certification Exams are changing. I also do not want to be a Paper MCSE, sure anybody with enough time can search the Internet and find TestKings to memorize. But what about when you get on the job, you will look like a dummy if you can not do what the certification covers. For the Microsoft 2003 Certifications, they have had the exam writers try to do away with the multiple choice exams and make then drag and drop or some other type of click and place. Hey, I am all for this, I am in a second career and love it, but I also want my hard work to be noticed, and certifications will help me with that. I am not rushing at it, using my on the job experience and hard work to obtain my MCSE for 2000/2003 the proper way, one step at a time.

        Most of the screaming at times, is from people that can not pass the exams.

        Michael, MCP,MCDST,A+,Network+
        Network & Internet Support Specialist

        • #3347441

          Keep up the good work !!!!

          by seanc ·

          In reply to Yes Sir, I agree 100%

          Michael,

          It’s really refreshing to hear from people like yourself who want to get certified the right way. People often make the mistake of just studying to pass the exams. This will not get you through the real-life problems because not enough experience has been built up. This has a knock on effect to the cert as a whole. You on the other hand, wish to join the stable of TRUE professionals who have “broken and rebuilt” the stuff that they are working on.

          I was fortunate enough to speak to one of the Cisco press Authors who has 3 CCIE certifications. He says to practice, practice, practice. Read the books and practice again until it becomes automatic. When you get to the exams, you will surely pass !!!!!

          Go forth and make your mark !!!!

    • #2701149

      Hype

      by macumazahn ·

      In reply to MCDST is Microsoft for real?

      I ran several projects at a major corp as a contractor, and hired over 200 people over 4 years, at first the company was very interested in certs but soon found that although these people could pass tests they didn’t know squat about PCs, they then switched over to experience as a prerequisite, we teamed up with a local school they taught and certed them and we gave then OJT, the majority of these people while very smart had no fundamentals in PCs and lacked troubleshooting ability, to me the ability to troubleshoot is more important than certs.

    • #2701096

      Paper Tigers

      by kbarry ·

      In reply to MCDST is Microsoft for real?

      A simple answer is delegation.
      Senior IT staff may be short on the time needed to solve the user centric break/fix issues.

      Their empolyers may have hired Senior IT staff members based on “advanced” certifications and will allow senior IT staff to hire an individual with a “basic” certification without recourse.

      Since we are on the issue of certifications.
      And possible a long answer.

      I do agree that the certifications can help employers identify the people who can provide the needed minimum skill requirements and provides a level of confidence for the certified individual.

      Both good.

      However, development of troubleshooting skills are badly needed and to many people have MS Certs AND rigid thinking.

      Both bad.

      If you cannot teach yourself or learn on the fly, and you work in this ever-changing landscape, you are;
      a. in the wrong industry/sector
      b. a byte monkey, repeatedly performing the same menial tasks for banannas while trying not to slip on the peels.

      This question may be another topic in itself.

      What is the difference between the individual who has great success without certifications and the less then successful technically certified individual?

      We all know a few of both types and may have been both at certain points of our careers.

      Could the backlash of employers with a sour taste in thier mouths from employing “paper tigers” be the cause for a group of task specific certifications?

    • #2713135

      MS Office Support Issues

      by josephsjohnson ·

      In reply to MCDST is Microsoft for real?

      I have supported the Office Suite for years. There are a few things I would like to point out:
      1. Millions of users, all over the world, everyday, use these programs badly or fail completely.
      2. Training efforts largely fail because they are rarely linked to realistic projects.
      3. The best way to support and train these applications is to have an energetic and friendly support person who is also someone who has successfully used the products on mature projects. I made my living doing this type of support for about four years. On any given day, I could calculate my “profitability” by considering:
      how long it took me (at my salary rate plus the salary rate of the user) to show someone how to do something in Word, Excel, PowerPoint, whatever.
      how long the user would have struggled or even engaged other users in the struggle.
      how much time would be saved in the future because I had not only solved the problem, but also trained the user in a task that was obviously relevant.

      In short, I was a constant source of profit for that company and also a positive influence on morale.

      Neither the MOS certs, nor the MCDST certs really seem to address the strange error messages and problems that users have every day with these programs. The best resource, and also the best model for what a good cert should be, is the kind of knowledge you find on an MVP site and also the newsgroups for Office. I was once an Expert for MS Word on the “All Experts” site. Now THAT is what people need to be certified in. The questions I got (and answered) were CRAZY! 🙂

    • #2716437

      The problem is..

      by obiwaynekenobi ·

      In reply to MCDST is Microsoft for real?

      That a lot of companies (wrongly) want an MCSE for an entry-level helpdesk job! Almost all the support jobs I see say something like the following: “MCSE certification desired.”

      So people like myself who are just out of school with an IT degree are screwed because stupid HR people just know the word MCSE, and throw it into all their advertised jobs (and evidently throw out any resume that doesn’t have it) without understanding that it’s for a network ENGINEER, not a tech support person.

      So the certification ISN’T worthless when it seems impossible to even get a foot in the door of the IT world unless you have it. Having a 2-year degree with about a year helping out the school’s IT staff to get some experience doesn’t seem to equate to anything.

    • #2708100

      what?

      by vic ·

      In reply to MCDST is Microsoft for real?

      I’ve taken and passed the A+ 2003 objective exams and I must tell you that the os exam for A+ only covers “basic” very basic troubleshooting of windows. I’ve looked at the material for MCDST and it looks like a real good start for someone trying to get into the field in a desktop support technician role.

    • #3313114

      You ain’t kiddin’

      by woodfish ·

      In reply to MCDST is Microsoft for real?

      That’s the Microsoft way, create a useless certification.

      • #3293313

        The problem & solution is everybody

        by philospher ·

        In reply to You ain’t kiddin’

        The Professional Network Admin. This person spends time reading technical articles and books. They keep up on industry trends. They strive to do it the best way possible. They understand that a person in IT must change as IT changes. They evaluate countless software programs, looking for something that can do it better. Their day does not end at 5:00. They are never satisfied with what they know. Their passion for the industry creates opportunities for their employers.

        Having used this from a previous post it needs to said again and again. Contnuing to bash people for getting certified. The people who cheat sooner or later get caught, To blame companies for trying to educate people about thier products is also a cheap shot and very unprofessional. I challenge all these “experienced” and uncertified IT personel to document how they pass on thier experience and methods. How do they evaluate the quality of service they give. Just becuase you don’t want to continue your education and valadate what you know.It’s this attitude that keeps the IT community from moving forward. To all people who don’t wish to be certified, YOU are part of the problem not the solution.

    • #3298280

      One Possible Use For MCDST

      by ssummit ·

      In reply to MCDST is Microsoft for real?

      In my line of business, home and small office desktop support, this certification’s full title could be useful in ads and on business cards to help prospective customers differentiate you from your comptetion

    • #3323116

      Certs vs Experience

      by inxale ·

      In reply to MCDST is Microsoft for real?

      You need both. How can you trust the person who says he has the experience but has no cert. Also the person with the cert may have just studied long and hard on questions with no fundamental understanding of the question is he answering too. Though he knows he is right. He might not be too sure how this works in the ‘real’ world.

      For me , you must have a cert if you want to be entertained for the job. I will then decide whether you have the experience. But then again maybe the position on offer allows me to choose someone who has shown a keen interest to forward themselves by going for their certification.

      Rgds

      • #3323008

        You said a mouthful

        by philospher ·

        In reply to Certs vs Experience

        As I said in my earlier posting. Professional take the time to learn from experience and contiuing education. Once again I challenge all these IT people think you gain knowledge by some osmosis process and not working. And you know who you are. How come when confronted with a rational debate all you want to do is bash and discourage people.

        • #3343483

          My mouthfull

          by seanc ·

          In reply to You said a mouthful

          Before you challenge anyone, use a spellchecker or a dictionary or something before you decide to grace us with your philosophy.

          If all else fails, ask a paper MCSE to proof read it because that’s all they are good for !!!

        • #3341873

          You validate exactly what I’ve been saying

          by philospher ·

          In reply to My mouthfull

          I’m going to respond to your post seanc, with a professional attitude.Your mouthful is the exact kind of low-brow, below-the-belt debating i’ve seen in this thread, and these forums. The constant belittling of people who really want to learn what they know & what they don’t know. You must be a god with all-knowing and all-powerful ways. I’m glad you don’t remember that you were once a “paper” IT person. Or do you know your posistion so well you don’t need refressher training or updated training.I ask one more time, How do you measure skill validation and pass those skills along Consistently. Think about that before you stick your “proverbial” foot in your mouth.

          The TipsForSucces.org web site has this interesting analogy:

          “A professional learns every aspect of the job. An amateur skips the learning process whenever possible.

          A professional carefully discovers what is needed and wanted. An amateur assumes what others need and want.

          A professional looks, speaks and dresses like a professional. An amateur is sloppy in appearance and speech.

          A professional keeps his or her work area clean and orderly. An amateur has a messy, confused or dirty work area.

          A professional is focused and clear-headed. An amateur is confused and distracted.

          A professional does not let mistakes slide by. An amateur ignores or hides mistakes.

          A professional jumps into difficult assignments. An amateur tries to get out of difficult work.

          A professional completes projects as soon as possible. An amateur is surrounded by unfinished work piled on unfinished work.

          A professional remains level-headed and optimistic. An amateur gets upset and assumes the worst.

          A professional handles money and accounts very carefully. An amateur is sloppy with money or accounts.

          A professional faces up to other people?s upsets and problems. An amateur avoids others? problems.

          A professional uses higher emotional tones: Enthusiasm, cheerfulness, interest, contentment. An amateur uses lower emotional tones: anger,
          hostility, resentment, fear, and victim.

          A professional persists until the objective is achieved. An amateur gives up at the first opportunity.

          A professional produces more than expected. An amateur produces just enough to get by.

          A professional produces a high-quality product or service. An amateur produces medium-to-low quality product or service.

          A professional earns high pay. An amateur earns low pay and feels it?s unfair.

          A professional has a promising future. An amateur has an uncertain future.

          The first step to making yourself a professional is to decide you ARE a professional.

          Are you a professional?”

        • #3341710

          You don’t know what you’ve been saying !!!

          by seanc ·

          In reply to You validate exactly what I’ve been saying

          Dear Philosopher,

          I do believe that you are on a different chapter from me. My previous reply was just a wind-up concerning your spelling (believe me, it still needs work). It had nothing to do with others trying to learn/make it in IT. If you want to take a professional attitude, why not be a professional and stop quoting things from bullsh*t amateur websites written by idiots for idiots to read and quote from.

          A PROFESSIONAL will not even answer such a stupid question !!!!!!

          You seem to be very angry about a few things. Perhaps you were given a hard time when you started out or perhaps you are still struggling. Either way, I still feel you have demons to take care of.

          Finally, I don’t remember being a “paper” IT person because I have never been one. You see, I started working in IT in 1991. I gained years of experience in different finance/banking environments before I did my certs.

          I am currently working on the CCNP/CCSP and am
          due to start the MSc IT and Management in September. This is in addition to juggling my work/home responsibilities.

          A word of advice from a professional:

          1) THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU WRITE NEXT TIME.
          2) PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT IS WRITTEN.
          3) FORMULATE A PROPER ARGUMENT.
          4) LEAVE THE BULLSH*T WEBSITES ALONE
          5) NEVER UNDERESTIMATE YOUR OPPONENT
          6) GO IN PEACE

        • #3343810

          I didn’t shoot from the hip seanc

          by philospher ·

          In reply to You don’t know what you’ve been saying !!!

          My rebuttal to your points:
          1. I did think about what i write before I commit it to this thread.

          2.I do pay attention to what you wrote.

          3.There’s nothing wrong with the basis of my arguement.Calling people “paper MCSEs is unprofessional and callous. Just because you can’t remember what’s its like to start out and yes I’m struggling, and learning just like you.

          4.It’s not bullsh*t to have a professional code. This I beleive is one of the biggest issues of going to full professional status. Both Doctors and Lawyers have professional associations and continuing education. I’m currently invovled in the NITAS program.

          5. I don’t consider you an opponent, I use this forum as a learning tool to learn from other professionals. Also I have work/home responsibilties. I also have more experience than I do certifications. My certification path began in 1993. and I have on this path ever since. I currently hold A-plus from CompTIA and I sit on three commitees for CompTIA. You have to start somewhere and there aren’t enough seasoned old pros to guide younger or inexperienced IT personnel along. There’s no path for the up & comming generation. Between Microsoft, Dept of Labor and CompTIA I believe that the path will finally become clear. A blueprint to create qualified employable IT personnel. Please excuse the spelling.

          6. Go in peace yourself, and good luck in your studying and career.

        • #3343659

          You did !!!!!!!

          by seanc ·

          In reply to I didn’t shoot from the hip seanc

          You say that you started your certification path in 1993 but you currently hold an A+ from CompTIA.
          Alright, so you know how to turn a computer on and you can upgrade the RAM etc..

          Any idiot who uses a computer for a couple of months can pass the A+ exam. This includes non-IT people who use the computer at home.

          If it makes you feel any better, my best friend’s 15 year-old brother passed the A+ exam last year.

    • #3352323

      mcdst

      by ruairi ·

      In reply to MCDST is Microsoft for real?

      this cert is directed specifically at tier 1/2 telephone support. The OS component of A+ is miniscule compared to whats covered in 70-271. Not 100% sure but I think it counts as your elective towards MCSA/MCSE

      • #3245486

        Who’s Interviewing?

        by glenn ·

        In reply to mcdst

        I had an interview last week where the interviewer was asking questions about backing up and restoring Outlook files. He didn’t even know what a .pst file was…go figure!

    • #3340531

      MCDST is needed

      by bartware ·

      In reply to MCDST is Microsoft for real?

      Microsoft’s MCDST is needed to fill in gaps in the support field. Having an MCDST combined with A+ & Network + gives a level II / III tech valid credentials within their job roles, as well as the able to use these certs towards their MCSA / MCSE. Remember certifications are like degree’s they may open doors for interviews, but is is you who has to sell yourself.

      • #3176603

        Interesting posts

        by cbalness ·

        In reply to MCDST is needed

        I’ve waded through this discussion and there are many and varied valid thoughts.

        There are a jillion certs and some apparently have “more worth” than others. It’s up to the employee to decide which certs are relevant to the path he is choosing.

        I agree with many posters that a healthy combination of certs and experience can be a better way to go, than a basket of certs or years in the trenches but no attempt to stay current.

        And finally, does the employer have a hot clue which certs are needed to have a well rounded usefull tech ??

        At an interview I had a prospective employer ask me what I got an “A+” in …. needless to say they didn’t know what they wanted in a tech, they just wanted somebody with something that they could post on their wall for clients to see.

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