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Michael Moore is a Sicko

By maxwell edison ·
Okay, I changed the title of this discussion from Will the REAL idiot please stand up to what it is now. Why? Because I thought the new title would better reflect the subject matter, and it might even turn into a (somewhat) interesting discussion on the issue of health care.

I did leave the original links, however.


To Michael Michael: http://tinyurl.com/6wbv

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In a dozen incarnations you couldn't influence...

by OnTheRopes In reply to Michael Moore is a [i]Sic ...

... one-thousandth of the people that Mr. Moore has influenced. Give 'er the old college try though eh? It's great "fun" to pick on those much more successful than you isn't it?<br><br>
I think the real idiot has already stood up. Shoot... oh... man... guess it's me. Woohooo!

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Not the correct standard

by JackOfAllTech In reply to In a dozen incarnations y ...

The number of people you influence is not the correct standard of right and wrong to go by. The Inquisition influenced more people (directly) than Jesus did but that doesn't make the Jesuits right.
I won't make any personal comments about Mr. Moore but I disagree with his views on just about anything and dislke his double-standard regarding other's failings vs. his own.


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That's cool Ralph

by OnTheRopes In reply to Not the correct standard

I like Mike. Like you, I don't agree with everything he does but then I don't like everything <b>I</b> do either and I'm my own boss. I'm also a frustrated film-maker and frustrated artist in general. I like to see people succeed who aren't necessarily "glamorous" and/or "politically correct" by somebody else's definition. It gives me hope and I <b>need</b> hope.<br><br>

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Influence is a values neutral trait

by Locrian_Lyric In reply to In a dozen incarnations y ...

Joseph Goebels was quite influential.

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So, you're inferring what exactly?

by OnTheRopes In reply to Influence is a values neu ...

I used the word influence in a sentence. So? <br><br>
I have seen individuals with influence here drive individuals away from TR. I also seriously doubt that many here could fill a single theater or auditorium or cause significant media stir because of some influential/artistic work of theirs.<br><br> When is the last time one of TR's members did the US talk show circuit?

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D@mm, I was standing up at the time

by DadsPad In reply to Michael Moore is a [i]Sic ...

Michael Moore aside, what is your take on the HMO/Health care industry in the US?

I belong to an HMO, and in general the have been very good. But anything outside of normal is a fight. I have no horror stories, but feel they could be real.

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In general, some thoughts . . . .

by maxwell edison In reply to D@mm, I was standing up a ...

1. Health Care is a commodity, not a "right", and it should be purchased like any other commodity. The silly notion that health care is a "right" to which everyone is entitled is not only ludicrous, in principle, but it's the primary cause for many of the problems people run into, such as high cost, poor service, etc. A "right" is something that can be neither given or taken away -- and certainly not something that must be taken from another in order to have.

2. Health Care started getting expensive when other people were expected to pay for it, whether that be the government or insurance companies.

3. Health Insurance is abused and overused. It should be used ONLY for catastrophic cases. Using automobile insurance as an analogy, if people used it the same way as they do health insurance, they?d have to file an insurance claim and get preapproval in order to get a $200 oil change at Grease Monkey. Save the insurance claims for the big stuff, and pay as you go for the rest.

4. Doctors and hospitals should not comingle their services with the health insurance industry. The first question a ?customer? should be asked is, How may we help you, not, Who is your insurance provider? Health insurance and health care are separate commodities, and they should be treated separately. And insurance companies should NEVER dictate what care may or may not be provided -- or the cost thereof.

5. If some fat-*** or chain smoker wants to ruin his health by his destructive life style, that?s his problem, not yours or mine. And it?s certainly not anyone else?s responsibility to pay for his health care. It?s such sentiments that then segue into dictating to other people how they live ? for their own good, of course.

6. Medical malpractice insurance (and exorbitant claims) is probably doubling, tripling, or even quadrupling the cost of delivering health care. It needs to be massively reevaluated ? and not by the trial lawyers who control both the system and the oversight.

7. Government (in the USA) exists to govern, not to deliver health care. (Michael Moore, however, believes that government should be the medical broker who gets another citizen to pay for health care for his fat-***.)

(More as they come to mind.)

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The other side

by Oz_Media In reply to In general, some thoughts ...

While I see exactly what your point is, nice and clear there, perhaps the veiwpoint of someone on teh other side of the fence can be seen the same way.

1). Healthcare is not a right, BUT, I agree that everyone that lives in my country should be entitled to health care without question, whether employed or not, rich orpoor or anything else. Nobody in my country should be descriminated against for teh sake of medical insurance. I am sure that echos the feelings of MOST who live in countries with government (SUPPORTED) helth care. No it's not really free as many think.

2) The cost health care being part of our country's budget (even if quite exorbitant) is of no importance to me. I' drather they spent it on keeping my neighbour alive for a few more years than killing someone overseas.
Saving lives without killing people.

3)Health insurance is a HUGE rip off, we agree there. ANY insurance is a rip off, insurance is not supposed to be paid out but simply collected by the insurance company. In Canada, health care costs are minimal, about $35.00 month for single person, SLIGHTLY more for families.

4)I agree, and doctors provided by the government are paid well, offer patient care and don't focus on selling the local pharmaceuticals in order to get a free trip to Hawaii. With respect to insurance companies dictating teh quality of care, it's the samewith cars, they dictate where they spend YOUR investment. Sad really.

5) "some fat-*** or chain smoker wants to ruin his health..." I agree to a point. But just as I accept the losers who abuse welfare so that those in real need can get aupport, so goes teh medical system. NO matter what system is devised, someone will abuse it. We either accept it as a way of life or forget those who need our help. Sorry can't do that,

6) Not applicable, out tax dollars pay the losers, our medical premiums stay about the same.

7) Michael Moore, yup pretty left wing, rather strong but he needs to be extreme to make his point. That's the American way, left extreme vs right extreme, no middle ground and no harmony between the self mandated divisions within your country.
But, if you ask people who live in countries where the government spend your money on health and not war, it's acceptable to them and they are more tan happy with the way it works. Canadians wouldn't vote in a government who didn't support health care, neither would most Brits.

TO look at that same analogy you offered, how about YOUR government deciding to spend YOUR money to help someone in a third world country? You accept that(even though often grudgingly if you don't feel it's in YOUR personal best interest) but not if its your neighbour?!?!?

To top it all off, how do Americans with this form of thought towards NOT helping thier fellowman, claim to be the saviours of the world? How can you claim to be so open hearted and helping when you wish for anything BUT that? Your money should be in YOUR opcket, the government shouldn't get any unless you choose to give them some. They people of your country shouldn't get any of it unless YOU choose ot give them some.

That works for some like yourself, who may be willling to donate and help others ifnancially, well done. But what about the ohter 300+ million Americans? Would they continue to hand out and help others after the novelty wore off? Would YOU give up a chunk of your cheque for the betterment of your fellowman if you didn't have to?

I'd say probably not.

In short, Americans seem to feel it's okay to spend hundrds of billions to attack others on thier own soil, but refuse to see the importance of spending hundreds of billions supporting and helping thier own, it just doesn't make much sense.

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"Michael Moore, yup pretty left wing,"

by jdclyde In reply to The other side

It isn't the FACT that he is "left wing" that is the problem. It is that he will intentionally distort and misrepresent REAL facts with his crockumentaries.

With our current society, people believe something if they see it on TV or in a movie. I am sure you remember Neils reaction to people that thought Mel Gibsons "The Patriot" was accurate with the burning of the church full of people.

Another example of "artistic license" U-571

"The film attracted criticism for its portrayal of an Enigma capture by an American, as opposed to a British crew, early in the war.

The film caused irritation and anger in Britain. The film was raised at Prime Minister's Question Time where Tony Blair agreed with questioner Brian Jenkins MP that the film was "an affront" to British sailors. [1] In response to a letter from Paul Truswell, MP for the Pudsey constituency (which includes Horsforth, a town proud of its connection with the ship that captured U-110), US president Bill Clinton wrote assuring that the film's plot was only a work of fiction.[2]"

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You don't think HE knows that?

by Oz_Media In reply to [i]"Michael Moore, yup pr ...

He admits that his 'mockumentaries' are extreme and take one small issue and **** it as big as possible while focusing on only the negative.

YOU said: It isn't the FACT that he is "left wing" that is the problem. It is that he will intentionally distort and misrepresent REAL facts with his crockumentaries

But there's absoutely NO difference in even the smallest way to how the Republican party constantly pretends all is fine and is always working to squelch the truth from hitting the people of America. YOu can even to tell me that the left is any better or worse than the right, they are both a laughing stock.

Here's the problem though, the right wing is doing this while sending your sons and daughters, brothers and sisters to war. All of a sudden it's not such a fun game, and it's people's they are using like slaves to the machine.

Michael Moore makes people think, he doesn't claim to be dead on and I don't think people take him as being spot on either. What he does do is raise questions and that pushes people to learn more of the facts and stop listening to whatever the politicians are spewing at them.

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