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Microsoft drops the JVM

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XP will ship without the software needed to run Java-based applications. What does this mean for Sun and its software?

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XP and Java

In reply to Microsoft drops the JVM

This article discusses the situation.

http://www.zdnet.com/eweek/stories/general/0,11011,2792142,00.html

This could backfire for MS

In reply to XP and Java

This move has the possibility to backfire for MicroSoft. The corporate world does not want each user downloading files (and the JVM is a big one) onto their desktops, nor do IS departments want to have to preload the JVM onto each new machine.I think the fact that millions of web sites will fail without java hasn’t registered on most decision makers radar screens yet… but it will. The first time a senior executive finds he cannot get his/her news or stock ticker to run on his new XP machine, he/she will call IS.
What will IS do, maybe not purchase anymore XP machines for a while, preferring to stay with Win 2000.
At the very least we may hear significant protests from the same users and executives that have always been defending MS’s right to do as it wishes.
I seriously doubt that ticking off that group of influential decision makers is a smart business move.

Actually this could become a good thing

In reply to This could backfire for MS

because, JVM’s in IE, Netscape, Mac Versions, and other browsers all differ slightly, they cause headaches and frustrations among applet developers.
Sun has tried to address this problem, by creating a JVM pluggin (Available in any Servlet 2.2, JSP1.1 compliant Servlet Engine), that can be pushed to the browser as an

plugin disabled also

In reply to Actually this could become a good thing

MS has also killed plugins and quicktime as well.

Guy

There’s More Here Than This About XP

In reply to This could backfire for MS

“Early adapters” who have given Microsoft its revenue boosts in the past are not showing up in heat for the latest new thing. I’m content with the rig I’ve got networked both at home and corporate office. I’ve prevailed with staying on the last version and updates of Win98. At home, I’ve got a nice little network, a single internet connection with satellite (Direct Duo), and I see no reason to tear the whole thing up just because Mr.Gates wants to alter all of my processes to his advantage.We’re using the same reasoning at work. We’ve got over 35,000 owned seats world wide and the general consensus is about the same. We’re dependent on a JAVA enabled web site internal network of information gathering and sharing. . . anything that looks like it will disturb our business processes in any way strikes major fear in the hearts of the senior and upper mid-level management.

We simply don’t have the excess money or labor to replace bought systems with rented applications.

We do just fine with Office 97, but what about our server software. . . UNIX doesn’t seem to care what version of windows we run. . . AND benchmarks still show both UNIX and the BSD servers running faster.

We’ve not been pressed to upgrade many or our seats with new equipment, and layoffs enable us to sweep up the old equipment, and redistribute the equipment to new hires. A backlog of 6700 available seats to install, and we expect to not need new investment in this arena for at least 18 months.So ask me if I care whether or not Microsoft is issuing a new windows version with or without JAVA. . .

For MS YOU are the problem…

In reply to There’s More Here Than This About XP

You and your company are the new enemy for MS. They have to find a way to stop you from sticky with your current set up no matter how comfortable you are.

Why do you think they want to shift to rentals? Too many companies are trying to make theirsoftware/hardware purchases last more years.

I remember when a computer purchase was amortized over ten years… It would be the death of MS if people only made major purchases every ten years!

Stick to your guns, if you don’t need it don’t buy it. And don’t fall for the lack of support trap either. The longer a system is in place the less tech support you need anyway! And anyone that says otherwise is a fool or a lier.

.Net

In reply to XP and Java

I suggest that MS believes that their .Net strategy will clean the floor with Java. One has to wonder if they have miscalculated what the market can bear. There seems to be very slow market movement towards .Net, and even slower movement towards Office XP and even XP. As an IT professional, I feel burnt out with the continuing forcing of changes MS throws at the market place. Maybe its time we looked elsewhere.

How slow can we go

In reply to .Net

If Microsoft didn’t move forward we would be slowed down by commitees trying to publish new standards that the participant companies will only half support. If the merry-go-round is too fast then maybe some people should get off.

If you want fast try the roller coaster

In reply to How slow can we go

I’d be willing to bet that 90% of all business desktops would be perfectly functional and efficient with W98 and Office 97/2000. They simply don’t need more. When there are truely workable voice recognition and video on the desktop applications available THEN we can worry about upgrading to more horsepower.

I think all this focus on having the latest version is actually stealling energy that would be better spent on the core business activities of these companies.

Note that I am talking about desktops, not servers. The desktop is not the place for technology races. It’s the place for getting the daily business done–and that doesn’t require annual software upgrades.

So let the merry-go-round alone. If you want speed go climb on the roller coaster…

More. Most would be better off with less

In reply to If you want fast try the roller coaster

If Microsoft actually spent time and effort in getting a solid, clean, fast system together (both OS and apps) I’d certainly have more time for them. Lets face facts, most people could get everything they need in the way of a word processor from something mid way between Wordpad and Word 97, they don’t use all the other bells and whistles and if you only needed that level of functionality, you would only need at best a P200 running Windows 95. If we ever get to the point where the hardware hitsthe stops in terms of not being able to get more performance, then and only then, the Microsofts of this world will actually have to sit down and start to look at how to clean up their code.

PS anyone know just how much of the average Microsoft product is actually used, and just how much overhead they put in to stick the easter eggs in ?

Yes we ned standards…

In reply to How slow can we go

Java Standard Sun
Quicktime Apple
Plug ins Netscape
Databases Oracle

Oh yeah that little thing called Linux that is most certinally done by a slow committe. No I dont think the world needs Microsoft.

Run fast or fail…

In reply to .Net

Those that fail to embrace and assimilate fundamental shifts/realities in technology end up on the heaps of obsolescence that contain everything from the native civilizations of North and Central America (among others)to VAX developers. Passive aggressive I can appreciate, but Denial isn’t usually the best choice.

When does a fluctuation become a shift?

In reply to Run fast or fail…

Most companies need their employees to sell, design, stock, maintain, clean, etc., not spend 35-70 hours every year learning new software in order to do exactly the same thing they did last year with little or no appreciable improvement.

Sometimes the IT department (that’s where I am) forgets that the other employees in the company do not NEED to stay abreast of the constant changes in our field.

They depend on us to monitor all of the fluctuations in the field and sort it all. They expect that when a REAL fundamental shift comes along we will introduce it to them in a way that improves their life not just disrupt it for the sake of staying up to date.

Daily users rarely should be on the cutting edge of technology–and we should never put them on the BLEEDING edge!

This is not denial it’s just good sense. Wait until the dust settles and then go with the winner–but only as far as you need to.

Change and denial

In reply to Run fast or fail…

If you are comparing the technologies of things like typewriters, dedicated word processors and software based word processors, denial can be fatal. While you can still find typewriters and dedicated word processors, they tend to be for specializedsituations.

When you compare this year’s integrated office suite with the one from two or three years ago, the differences in technology are relatively trivial so you don’t really have fundamental shifts in technology. Only those who are on the bleeding edge of technology, the power users, can make cost effective use of the new features. The rest of us can safely be in a watchful state of denial because it doesn’t impact how we do things.

If anything, skipping a release or three means that we can improve our skills with what we have as opposed to having to relearn parts of a new package. Of course that means a more expensive upgrade later, when we absolutely have to replace software and hardware because things are breaking down. But by then we could afford it.

Chasing Mirages As Fast We Can

In reply to Run fast or fail…

Having watched the PC industry for 20 years I can say that most fundamental shifts/realities turn out to be illusions. Remember Power PCs? Pen Computing? Thin Client PCs? Most “next big things” which get hyped around for a year or two go nowhere. The better ones simply become niche markets.

Fundamental Shifts – OR – Marketing Hype

In reply to Chasing Mirages As Fast We Can

I agree that many fundemental shifts are only marketing hype… but many of them are real.. it is just the timeframe that is oversold.

Two of your examples; Pen Computing and Thin Client PCs; I will argue are real, but certainly not in the time frame originally envisioned. I would be lost without my Palm VII. But I also built systems based on Grid, GO, and Apple. In fact I bet my company on those technologies. It was a fun ride for awhile, but we were way too early.

As far as thin client… this is still in its infency. But very few people, especilly in the business world, will need anything but a browser in a few years. Oracle was early, but what the hell… Larry has a lot of money.

Thin clients

In reply to Fundamental Shifts – OR – Marketing Hype

the new name for the hardware formerly known as dumb terminals…….Yes that is most certinally in its infancy.

movement towards .NET?

In reply to .Net

nohting .NET is even available. The fact that there is so much talk about .NET in the developer and enterprise arenas when nothing is even to market that is a part of this strategy says a lot. Don’t doubt that .NET at least as a development platformwill be the future.

Consumers in the crossfire.

In reply to Microsoft drops the JVM

How long before consumers realize and take action against Microsoft for continually putting us all in their crossfire? Just to imporove their bottom line. I’m not a Microsoft basher but I am beginning to tire of the “Microsoft doesn’t play well withANYONE!” reality. At least if the consumers and developers concerned were “human shields” it would imply that there was someone out there trying to rescue us, for whatever reason.

Consumer is King

In reply to Consumers in the crossfire.

ya Greg, In customeric centric world MS strategy is of high risk. Trying to lock in the clients is not advisable in coming services oriented scenario. Disruptive tech. in business strategy wont be encouraged always. MS shoudnt join the disruptive class

MS invented the Disruptive Class

In reply to Consumer is King

>> MS shoudnt join the disruptive class

Microsoft invented the disruptive class! Play well with others, or you leave the playground.

A very long time

In reply to Consumers in the crossfire.

Microsoft is in the position they are now because, for years, consumers have been supporting them, even when there were better and less expensive alternatives available.

There are no customers anymore

In reply to Consumers in the crossfire.

MS doens’t like every other company has only one goal, to grow and extend their span of influence. Meanwhile they reached a size where they don’t have to care customers anymore.

Java is still a thread to MS. I know of big companies who see Java as a way to make their applications OS independend. And for many applications this works fine. These companies are tired of a OS migration every second year and fix the applications that broke due to new OS features.

However, these companies are too few to make MS reconsider and too many people and even so called experts are 100% MS followers and just do what MS says. Without questioning if they need it and what it gives them.

So in the long run either MS takes over everything or they go down as all big companies did in the past, just because leading such a big empire is very difficult and the resistance will grow…

Don’t give a crap.

In reply to There are no customers anymore

I could care less about this because I have not loaded a microsoft OS on my box in a long time. I still have a smallish win59 partition let over but it is really a storage depot for me on a different drive for recovery for FreeBSD and Linux.
As a UNIX/Linux consultant this will bring more work when all the corporations using Java technology on the Win platform realize that by XP service pack 3 you’ll not be able to cleanly run any Java app in Windows they’ll start to switch. MS has a policy offorcing Office upgrades this way. You have backwards compatibility until about the 3rd SP, then it’s so hard to exchange docs and mail with all features, that you are forced to upgrade to keep up with everyone else.

Chas2K

Upgrades no problem

In reply to Don’t give a crap.

Actually I have been using Windows since the begining and Linux for quite some time and I can say that I don’t have any problems with using even the oldest Office docs with even the newest release, XP. Companies may switch to Linux on the server side for SOME things but it will be a very long time before Linux is a viable alternative for anyone but techies on the desktop.

No big deal…

In reply to Microsoft drops the JVM

Sun and java developers are just going to have to distribute the VM with their apps. The means of VM distribution will have to adapt. We don’t need to cry to microsoft when they don’t do something. That only proves the computer industry’s dependenceon microsoft.

What does the further holds?

In reply to Microsoft drops the JVM

If MS is droping JVM what will be replace it is it C++ or C#. And what will happen to the standard java-based apps? Does C# has some kind of wrapper/support for JVM based code?

Not dead, just in the spotlight.

In reply to What does the further holds?

I don’t think this action by MS will hurt Java at all. I agree with a previous response in that Java developers will just have to distribute a JVM with their products. ( Third party JVM’s work better anyway!:) ) MS is painting a very ugly picture ofthemselves and in time it will bite them. The general populace will eventually begin to understand the type of negative actions MS is really taking.

Client and Server

In reply to Not dead, just in the spotlight.

I do make applications for Java. I have to admit that I rarely use the JVM 1.2 or even Swing with 1.1 since it is not present by default. I usualy program using Sun JDK and then go to try it using the Microsoft JVM that comes with Windows.

Now,if the OEM puts the JVM in there package, the Java community (and to a certain extent Sun) will have won that little war. Otherwize Java as an application will not be sean in homes or in there browser (most people do not like to download plugins).
Don’t forget that most Application Servers used for the internet sites and intranet sites by cooporations and businesses is VERY VERY popular and present.

It’s all falling into place now.

In reply to What does the further holds?

This is good for Linux and Solaris users, developers across the world will need alternatives and in the end “linux will get world domination over the OS”.
Bad move Microsoft!

Bad Move

In reply to It’s all falling into place now.

Microsoft is just shooting itself in the foot.

Sun is not a non profit organization

In reply to Microsoft drops the JVM

If sun was so concerned about making Java a universal language, why did they sue Microsoft? Money, that’s why. Sun is just as concerned about their bottom line as Microsoft is. BTW Microsoft has submitted the full specifications of .Net to the ECMA,has Sun done this with Java? No

Microsoft pulling standards their way!

In reply to Sun is not a non profit organization

It was not just about money, Microsoft is always trying to run ahead of standards, trying to force them later, arguing they are what the market wants!. I think, and that was my main concern with MS’s way of handling JAVA, taking a somewhat industry standard, I know SUN drives it, out of microsoft’s hands is a good move, and it will help JAVA grow the way community wants it to grow and not BILL GATES way. Now my question is, Is anybody, other than Microsoft, of course, going to develop JVM for Microsoft OS? Will they stick to the standards? I hope SUN or Netscape or some SERIOUS company takes the lead and provides us with a strong JVM for windows.

IBM’s New JVM is FASTER and Won’t Crash

In reply to Microsoft pulling standards their way!

You mentioned a serious company taking the lead in providing a strong JVM for Windows…. Enter IBM. Their latest server-side JVM (which is where the JVM needs to be placed) is the most robust to date, and runs more reliably than the latest from Sun Microsystems. MS removing a JVM from the OS is not such a big deal. Less of MS is what we need anyway. I am tired of the “everything including the kitchen sink” approach in the MS operating systems. Someone else will always make it better than MS can… this is proven by history over and over again. Less is better. It makes systems more efficient and provides for less frustration on my administrators.

Why should we care

In reply to Sun is not a non profit organization

I didn’t expect BG to take part in this discussion (or maybe I did). The reason for the lawsuit was not money; at the end of the day the money paid by Microsoft to Sun was insignificant. It was about Microsoft trying to hijack another technology ensuring only windows rules at the end of play. They tried to pollute Java so that it relied on Microsoft technologies; they then promoted this through illicit partner programs. They lost.

The fact that Microsoft believes code sharing is better thanopen source is currently a point of hot topical debate. I would rather go along with open source at the right time advocated by Sun, in defense of their JCP, than with Microsoft.

Lets get back to the missing JVM. The lack of a JVM in XP on end users should be made much clearer. I believe the answer to this is two fold.1) Desktop apps requiring a JVM can implement checks in the installers to see if a JVM is available. If not, the user gets the option to load it from the CD. 2) A lot of WEB sites today are Java enabled and. XP will have NO effect on them. As the content delivered to the browser is generally HTML etc. Only sites providing content in the form of Applets will experience problems. Firewalls in corporates can already ban applets and it will have no effect on these. However, users who do allow applets will be affected. and creators of these sites should consider supporting the Java Plug in technology. If users refuse to accept the download then the site may be unavailable.

The reality is that users will install software distributed on CDs by magazines for whatever reason and this could be a good point of distribution for JVM?s and corporate users should be able to install from their intranet. Personally I believe that Microsoft can do as they please, like they always have. After all, do we really want to give them the satisfaction of disrupting our lives because of their hang-ups?

Reply To: Microsoft drops the JVM

In reply to Microsoft drops the JVM

Wonderful Idea that Microsoft gets the Customer to understand that it?s Windows Software is incomplete, and that he has to have Netscape Navigator in Addition to be able to read Java Sides.
Computer Manufacturers shall deliver every Machine with Navigator installed, and let the Option to the Customer to either be added by Linux with StarOffice or WindowsXP with Microsoft Office. And then note the Price Difference!
So XP intead of Linux could become an additive-Price-Option, just to be orderedby “legacy Type” old, mentally-unflexible People.

Your Stupid

In reply to Reply To: Microsoft drops the JVM

Please don’t try to give a technical reply unless you have the facts straight.

Who’s Stupid?

In reply to Your Stupid

If you’re going to act like you’re smarter than someone else, maybe you should learn your grammar. (Note the use of you’re – meaning you are, versus your – possessive pronoun meaning belonging to you.) It doesn’t help your position. Plus, you don’t have any other argument that proves YOU have any technical expertise.

The correct answer is,

In reply to Who’s Stupid?

“My stupid what?”

No more intervention of MS

In reply to Microsoft drops the JVM

I think it is an opportunity when Java is no part of windows anymore, but can be installed separately. MS can’t interfere with Java-standards anymore, so compatibility on other platforms will be guaranteed. User’s will download the plug-in when they need the software, like they do with quick-time for instance.

A Lesson from the Linux community???

In reply to Microsoft drops the JVM

When I install Netscape or Mozilla on any Linux distro, the first website I visit which uses java (i.e. the first site) causes the downloading of the latest jvm from Sun. Guess M$ is just taking a clue from the linux world. However, the premise of Bill’s that the inner workings of the processes should be transparent to the idio…ehhhm, I mean end-user, seems to have fallen by the wayside.

Big Brother

In reply to Microsoft drops the JVM

Big Brother has a name. Big Gates!

Major opp. for Java apps.

In reply to Microsoft drops the JVM

Whilst Java has permeated through the web it has never really made it to the PC in applications. One reason is the issue of installed JVM’s and the correct level of same. It’s a tricky area where DOS skills are still required. If users get used to having the latest JVM like they so with Winzip, Cyberkit etc. then maybe more Java apps. will be written. This makes the write once, run anywhere paradigm a little closer whilst giving M$oft something else to worry about.

More Java apps. for Windows means more for Linux too which will improve the acceptability of Linux in mainstream environments.

Typical

In reply to Microsoft drops the JVM

This is not unexpected, and is consistent with Mr. Softee’s monopolistic approach to computing. They are no-one’s friend. Hardware vendors should by all means load a JVM to the machines they sell. Perhaps AOL can include a copy on its ubiquitous disks.

I think most are missing the picture

In reply to Microsoft drops the JVM

What do I see?
I have been a web developer for over 10 years. I have seen stuff come and go. Most all the morons posting about linux are mainly just newbies thinking they are making a difference. and Most do not remember when Microsoft took on Macromedia for dynamic pages. Microsoft Liquid Motion came out and they competed and lost. Face it you see Flash and Shockwave everywhere.

You see java everywhere too. However when a new version of Flash Comes out does microsoft give it to you, no youvisit a web page and it downloads the plugin for you. That is all that I see happening. You do not have it, it can be detected. So it gets installed for you. I mean what is the big deal. What this will do if anything is help make the web a better place. Web Developer like me that can program in all the languages and develop pages that work on all systems will be more valuable. Plus the Front page morons who call them selves Web Masters cause they run Front page or Dream Weaver might actually have to learn some of this stuff.

Exactly…..

In reply to I think most are missing the picture

The main use for Java right now is in the Client/Server area. Creating systems that can run on different servers, interact with each other, and access numerous data sources. For right now, Java’s strength is in the server applications not the client front end. Yes, Swing is very nice, but Java Applications are not very efficient right now (just look at Forte, StarOffice, Visual Age, and some of the other IDE and Java Applications). They are serious memory hogs. I mean, I know memory is cheap right now, but should everyone have 512MB to 1GB of memory on every user?s workstation just to run one or two Java Applications?

Whether or not M$ ships a JVM with the OS becomes irrelevant for the servers since you would probably upgrade it for whatever project you are working on anyway. If anything, this is a blessing in that you no longer have to worry about older JVM’s floating around on your servers.

Web clients don?t even have to know that they are accessing a Java Application. Which makes it easier to build cross-platform applications. And if you have to build an Applet with Swing, well the HTML code for embedding that applet can automatically download the JVM to run it, so the client may experience a longer download time the first time they access the Applet, but afterwards, they will have the correct JVM to run all your Java Application with minimal hassle for the end user.

So overall, this is not a major source of concern. In fact it?s a good thing M$ decided to get rid of that old JVM anyway.

Corporate arrogance?

In reply to Microsoft drops the JVM

This seems to me to be a case of big-company arrogance. They have a chance to get even with Sun (for a problem they (MS) caused in the first place)without regard to the effect on their users (customers). If anything, maybe it will raise the incentive for alternatives to Windows — trouble is Windows is like electricity – hard to find real alternatives.

Give me a break

In reply to Microsoft drops the JVM

I’m a Microsoft Windows 2000 user (and XP beta tester) who will upgrade to Windows XP as soon as its available. The lack of a JVM doesn’t concern me in the least.

If you remember back to Sun’s lawsuit, they charged that Microsoft was modifying Java. Microsoft’s response was that they were doing so to make it run better on Windows. (I know I’m simplifying a bit here)

Good for Microsoft! As an exclusively Microsoft OS user, I don’t care if the Java application runs equally well on Linux, Solaris, OS/2, whatever. I want the best performance on my machine.

The problem with “write once, run everywhere” is that you’re reduced to writing code for the least common demoninator. I want programs that take advantage of everything my platform has to offer, not something that sacrifices functionality for compatibility.

A break for you

In reply to Give me a break

It’s this the kind of thinking which is preventing true openess and compatability between different platforms in the computing world today.

Another break?

In reply to A break for you

I thought that was what XML was for? Go figure…

All this really means is the JVM will have to adapt to be MORE of a plugin, like Flash. Delivery will be the key. In the Internet world we are living in, this shouldn’t be a problem.

Problem with Java is, like another previous post describes, I want all of the functionality my platform has to offer, whether it’s Linux, Solaris, Mac, Windows or CP/M (anyone old enough out there may remember CP/M or any of the ‘other’ dozens of OSes and panguages that have been consumed in time..). AS posted before, Java has a serious problem with WORA, speed and native compatibility, as does any language in the same boat. I guess we will just make a faster machine to run Java apps or load up JSP sites. I personally like the idea of native Java compiling, at least to solve some of the speed concerns. Of course we could all go back to BASIC. You know, I have seen the same ancient BASIC programs (well, mostly gaimes…) on several different OS platforms from PC to mainframe and THEY ALL WORK ALIKE! Isn’t that AMAZING!

You cannot make blanket statements about a language, OS, server platform or anything else for that matter without sounding (and probably being) and idiot. All of these things are here for a reason – to fill a gap. They will continue to fill thier gap until something else comes along that fills it better and is cost effective to apply. Not much of technology today is really new. It’s old ideas and concepts with a spit-shine. My appologies again for anyone out there not old enough to remeber a spitshine… Remember boys and girls, it’s about money. Everything else is a hobby. 🙂

Wrong – Not it

In reply to Give me a break

The judgement was the microsoft could modify the code but could not change the base code – so that any Java program could utilize it …

MICROSOFT JUNK – Change the Base Code …

Get it – MS was attempting to create their own private – MS JAVAlanguage – which could not run anywhere except MS platform – which is not what the JAVA language was designed for. SUN authorized MS to modify the JVM – but the could not modify the base CODE…

And it doesn’t matter anyway – because you can download from http://www.javasoft.com the latest JVM for your platform.. any no longer have to rely on MicroJunk to support an international standard language…

Semantics

In reply to Wrong – Not it

Okay, base code, additional code, what do I care?

Again, my point is that I want an app to run on my machine and use all the features of the platform (hardware, OS, software) available to give me the best application. Period. I don’t care if it also runs on Linux or not.

Frankly, I don’t care if it was written in Java, C++, VB, or Cobol! I just want the app to run the best that it can.

Also, a bit of a nit to pick here, but Java is not an “international standard language”. It is a proprietary language designed by and controlled by Sun Microsystems which has been widely adopted.

I wonder if the Java faithful will be singing the same tune when Sun realizes that their bottom line isn’t looking as great as it could and maybe they should be getting some revenue out of all these Java utilities, VMs, etc.?

On that point I agree

In reply to Semantics

On your point of wanting a product to run at opt speed on the platform you are using… I can not agree more with. But the only way we can get that – is that Sun creates a compiler for the code – per platform – or add numerious calls and redefine other class’s for that environment. (both loads of work) – so I will accept the few slow downs… .

But what I was correcting was – why MS and Sun went to court. And Actually – Sun told MS that they are still permitted to have JAVA and can modify JAVA as long as they don’t modify the base code. But MS – said – Nope we will have our own that the world will beat a path to… call it C#.

So even today – MS is licensed for JAVA – but have chosen not to use it. And I for one am happy – now all you have to do is download that little – JVM from Javasoft (or any where) … and your up and running on the latest version..

Bill Gates does NOT walk on water!!

In reply to Give me a break

If Java applications would run equally well on all platforms, you would see many times more Java applications that ran better! Windows, with the M$ version of Java IS the ‘least common denominator.

M$ is NOT the be all, end all in OS’s!

Yes he does

In reply to Bill Gates does NOT walk on water!!

Walking on water simply means knowing where the rocks are. Or, perhaps, the submerged piles of skulls.

yes……but…

In reply to Give me a break

There is a point to your argument, but your logic is very narrow and seriously flawed. First. The windows platform was designed with the average user in mind. NOT corporate atmospheres. A windows platform simply cannot compete with, say an AS/400 in terms of stability, and security. A windows platform does not function well as a mission-critical server. For smaller, less critical uses, yes, it works fine, and programs should be written specifically to take advantage of what each platform has to offer.

The problem is that proprietary thinking is simply naive. There are too many systems out there in use, that take advantage of different aspects of computing in order to accomplish widely different tasks. The primary appeal of Microsoft is that it sits ‘in the middle’. It runs a lot of applications decently, but none of them are truly outstanding. What Java attempts to do, and actually has done is create a language that will interface with a variety of systems, thus bridging the compatability gap.

Bottom line, Windows is good at some things, UNIX/linux are good at others, AS/400’s are good at others, Macs do thers well, and so on and so on. Windows is a seperate platform, and for the average home user could be defined as the ‘default’ system for their commonplace use. But when you get into the neccessity to perform a specific task in an extraordinary fashion, Windows just doesn’t cut it.

So, as we consider what impact this will have on Java, consider this: How much money was invested by huge corporations to write and develop Java programs/servlets/applets/etc? And do the added benefits of XP significantly outweigh the cost of having to re-write/re-enineer/re-program their entire network or web site? Resoundingly, I think the answser is going to be no, and thus, major customers(read: major corporations) will not immediately, if ever make the switch to Windoze XP.

Windows doesn’t cut it…..

In reply to yes……but…

Windows doesn’t cut it? In the past sure MS was not in the same stratosphere as *nix OS’s in performance. If you look at the scalability and stability of win2k based solutions they at least equal in most cases, better if you look at cost and performace of SQL Server 2000/ Win2k based database solutions, which are outperforming all competitors.

Pricey

In reply to Windows doesn’t cut it…..

Anyone priced out a Solaris box running Oracle lately?

IT JUST DOESNT MATTER ANYMORE

In reply to Microsoft drops the JVM

Once again the old with MS dropping support of JVM will it die. Gartner get out of MS’s pocket.

First – The JVM can be downloaded from http://www.javasoft.com – for FREE (Let see Microsoft give stuff away all the time for free – like C# or DOT.NET). That will happen when people in Hell get Ice Water.

Second – Microsoft never support the true JVM base code. They modified it to fit their environment. Which was illegal – they were authorized to modify the code – but not change the base code.

Third – Microsoft tried by dropping support of a number of products – and they lived on. Microsoft is not the End All – Be All of the PC world. If MS were to go belly up – the world would continue –

Fourth – MS is just hurting themselves by not supporting a universal language .. and trying to force people to use dot.net and c#..

Microsoft = MicroJunk

So what?

In reply to Microsoft drops the JVM

Who used the Microsoft VM anyway? And who want’s to use it now ?
I downloaded the Sun VM before I started running Java apps on my own PC. And if I want applets, I’ll grab the Sun plug-in.
This is very similar to PDF files. If you want to read aPDF from the web you’ve got to download the Adobe plug-in.
We don’t see anyone arguing that Microsoft must ship the Adobe plug-in with their OS for consumers to have free choice.
So why do we need Microsoft to ship the JVM ?

OPERA 5.12 Browser

In reply to Microsoft drops the JVM

OPERA 5.12 Browser is a java based browser, beats both ie and netscape. I am trying to avoid MS products because of pop unders, pop ups, and propriartary screening of products that are not Microsoft. It is interesting that Outlook is unable to pull email from hotmail accounts because MS want to keep its hotmail system exclusive from all products that are not microsoft or licensed to or by Microsoft. Try to use a third party browser to get hotmail email like opera for instance. You will probablyget an error message like ” Microsoft doesn’t support this software” or somthing to this effect.
Sorry Microsoft but retaliation against Sun Microsystems by eliminating Java support in your new release of XP may turn out to bite you in the butt later.

What JVM?

In reply to Microsoft drops the JVM

I’d venture that the majority of the computing “public” has at least heard
of Java. Fewer know or should care that Java accomplishes its “Write
Once Run Anywhere” magic via the JVM. Sun’s been so successful
abstracting away the details of different operating systems for end users
most of whom, as mentioned before, don’t know how this is done that
Microsoft’s removal of the runtime from XP is damaging even if not fatal.
I don’t know that OEM’s will be willing to preinstall the JVMon machines
just because it’s easy to imagine that they don’t care. As far as the OEM’s
are concerned, most users know about and need an operating system. I
don’t know that OEM’s feel the same way about the JVM. Any end-user
who wishes touse Java services, be they applets or applications can still
download the latest runtime–especially if you’re a Windows user who
uses local Java services that rely on runtimes after 1.1. For better or
worse, where end-users were once ignorant of the JVM, they’ll now have
to learn where to get it. Personally, I think it’s better that XP dispenses
with the JVM because end-users will learn where to get the latest and
greatest one. Installation’s not an issue because installing theJVM is just
like installing any other software for their platform. Last, I don’t think
that end users will experience webpages that simply don’t work. I can tell
you, as a Java developer and former webmaster, that most of us are
reclaimingour hard-earned proprietary code and centralizing
deployment at the server using Servlets which offers superior OS
agnosticism than even the JVM. Nice try Micro

We tend to forget one thing

In reply to What JVM?

Just one little thing everyone tends to forget – For most users in the real world, who are still using modems, the JVM is a sizeable download. How many Joe Average users are really prepared to wait 20, 30, even 40 minutes for a JVM to download so they can view a page. I know it only has to be done once, but ignorant users either may not know that. And may not even willing to wait that long once. I believe this will unfortunately work to Micro$oft’s advantage.

Eric.

Sun Microsystems: Listen to this!

In reply to Microsoft drops the JVM

All the manufacturers that you hope would have enough sense to install the JVM on new XP systems have Javascript embedded on their sites. If the manufacturers do not install the JVM, their customers would not have a browser capable of using their sites!

I think this could be a blessing in disguise! Good riddance to MS proprietary code and let’s get back to an industry standardized Java!

JavaScript is not Java

In reply to Sun Microsystems: Listen to this!

JavaScript is not Java even if the names cause confusion to some and JavaScript is not supported or run by any part of a JVM.

Javascript has nothing to do with java

In reply to Sun Microsystems: Listen to this!

Umm javascript is a client-side interpreted scripting language that has absolutely nothing to do with Java.

M$ version didn’t work right anyway!

In reply to Microsoft drops the JVM

Maybe, now, the ‘pure Java’ sites will work right with IE, instead of just Netscape!

The average end user downloads, and installs everything else anyway, so why not a REAL JVM?

All the deveopers will need to do is include a link to a download site, and the can program to a REAL INDUSTRY standard, instead of an M$ non-standard!

Changing the meaning of Open systems

In reply to Microsoft drops the JVM

Microsoft has changed the meaning of a Open System by dropping JVM in XP.

Make up your minds

In reply to Microsoft drops the JVM

First all of you Java developers get mad at Microsoft for hijacking Java. Now you’re all mad because Microsoft has dropped Java. Which is it? Or is this just another excuse to bash Microsoft.

We are happy MS Dumped it …

In reply to Make up your minds

The worse JVM even written was the JVM Microjunk created – when the rest of the world was moving forward with JVM 1.2 and so on – MS-JVM was still back in the stone age. And you had to down load the JVM from Javasoft – which fix MS problem.

We have always said to MS – get standardized or get ride of it … Can tell you how many user help desk calls were made because they didn’t have the correct JVM on their Win NT workstation. After the Push – poof – all better…

MICROJUNK we don’t needan empty excuse to bash and mash MicroJunk… they create their own reasons to be bashed… in short they ask and beg for it…

Reason to bash

In reply to We are happy MS Dumped it …

So they got rid of it, and you’re mad anyhow.
I can’t tell you how tired I am of these religous wars. I don’t care what operation system I use, or what language the apps are written in, as long as they work.
You guys (or girls) sound like the old Betamax users, who swore that it was better than VHS. The only problem was that VHS was marketed better (and recored more on a tape) so it won the VCR wars.
Microsoft may not have the best OS out there, and it may not be the easiest to use, but they won the war.
If you want to beat them, you have to come up with something better than Windows, as DVD is better that tape for watching movies.
(And don’t tell me that Lynix is better. If you need a tech degree to install it, it will never become popular.)

Same point about

In reply to Reason to bash

If you were a techie you would of did the OS/2 – Vir – Win… OS/2 100% better OS but due to marketing and the difficulty of installation – it died.

Guess what – MS never learned from its past success’s – and they are now the IBM of the 21’st cent. And it will always be open season on the big turkey.

But – religon – Politics – and Software will always be debated – one is better than the other with no hard evidence to support either side….

Installation weaknesses

In reply to Reason to bash

If you didn’t need a tech degree to install Linux, then it could become popular according to your reasoning.

So all somebody has to do is create a user friendly installation suite and the “have to have a tech degree” argument goes away. That would make Linux a little better.

It wouldn’t take that much work when you get down to it. You would create installation templates for variations like Compact, Normal and Custom and let the installation software do the work. Tech types would use the Custom template. Everybody else would use either the Compact or Normal template.

Once one group does it, all groups could have the template available if the Open Source approach is taken. The weakness you mentioned would be eliminated.

Other Linux weaknesses could be eliminated in a similar manner. They would take more work though. Installations tend to be simpler than many applications.

No kidding..

In reply to We are happy MS Dumped it …

Apparently you lived under a rock for the last several years (or else you just popped out of college). MSFT was precluded from doing anything with the JVM because of the suit.

BTW it is a spec not a standard and you need to run spelling and grammar checks before you submit…

Microsoft drops the JVM — Possibilities

In reply to Microsoft drops the JVM

The statement: XP will ship without the software needed to run Java-based applications.

The question: What does this mean for Sun and its software?

All OS Manufacturer and article sponsor bashing aside, let’s take a moment to address the real question.

What does it mean for Sun and its software , now that MS is dropping its (bastardized) version of JVM?

It is a major shot in the arm (as in good medicine) for Sun as it opens the door for Sun to completely focus on developing the JVM and its associated software support.

It also means that the Solaris Ix86 initiative will get a major boost to its installed user/developer base (We have multi-boot capability for cross-platform tool testing and development which includesSun and Microsoft platforms).

It means that more businesses, (depending, of course, on how easy Sun can manage to make the installation process) will be more encouraged and inclined to migrate their entire network structure to one which is Sun Platform (Ix86 or otherwise) based.

Sun Lawsuit

In reply to Microsoft drops the JVM

From what I remember, there was a much underpublicized suit that Sun sued Microsoft for unlawfully modifying their JVM and re-distributing it bundled with their software. Microsoft never wanted to pay Sun so they simply made a business move and dropped the JVM to save money. It was not a decision, it was forced by Sun and the lawsuit.

Your close but

In reply to Sun Lawsuit

You are close – but went a little off –

Sun licensed MS (and it still is) to distribute JAVA. But could not modify the base code, they could enhance the code but not modify it. MS – modified the base code and it was JAVA 1.1.3 for it’s life.

The court ruled that MS violated the agreement – and had to put in JAVA 1.2 and remove theirs. Sun licensed MS to continue to distrube JAVA – but they declined.

Gee I wonder why – with C# (sharp) – and DOT.NET stuff… they are attempting to do.
Did you ever wonder why 90% of viruses out today attack MS software – Could it be that it is so buggy any 5 year old could Hack it.

Sounds like a good debate / discussion question… hum

Reason

In reply to Your close but

MS has the largest majority of the installed server base so naturally it’s going to be attacked more. Plus, everyone loves to hate the biggest, most powerful player on the block, all reason set aside.

server based installs.

In reply to Reason

Actully most heavy lifting servers are Unix and MVS. MS win machine are at about 25 % (give or take) of the SERVER market. Far from a majority.
the reason it is soo easy to attack is that IE pervades the OS. you find one bugs it in the reast of the OS. unlike kother compartmented apps.

i think you are blind

In reply to Your close but

The reason that MS is targeted by viruses is because they have 90% of the userbase. Nothing else. what are they gonna do attack the .5% of linux desktops? Do you really think these vulnerabilities don’t exist in bsd or linux? you’d be the last person i’d hire as a security consultant. think before you speak.

Bad solution

In reply to Microsoft drops the JVM

I think that removing of JVM support is a worst solution among the worstest. Why I think so? – Because Java really is a good and wise solution with many advantages in front of ActiveX, etc. Also .NET can’t be valuable substitution due cross-platforming of Java. Despite some restriction of used JVM versions the advanced developer can make a wide variety of useful things which will be applicable at different platforms.
As a conclusion I want say only that Microsoft’s solution can makes to returnof many users to Netscape and other counterparting products. I am personally declining to that.

Die Sun, Die…

In reply to Microsoft drops the JVM

J2EE is crap. There are absolutely ZERO benchmarks for this fat slow piece of dookie. Sun finally (begrudgingly) admitted at JavaOne that entity beans are stupid (No kidding so is the rest of it). Even IBM uses COM+ for the benchmarks they are posting these days.

McNealy is a dick and those of you who think otherwise are misguided fools who don’t understand what a transaction really looks like and how it should perform.

Call me a MSFT Nazi, but at least the new stuff is more performant and the OEMs now will guarantee 5 nines on the OS.

MSFT will spend almost $5 Billion on R&D this year (hold your snide comments..) and with the VS.NET multi language inheritance coolness, what’s the point of Java.

I say die Sun, die…

Blithering Idiot

In reply to Die Sun, Die…

I am making the assumption that Tim Wheatley is actually an alias for Bill Gates. If this assumption is wrong then you must be just another blithering MS idiot who would have the world chanting Microsoft as they sleep and dream of a world one day ruled by Adolf Gates.

It wouldn’t matter if MS spent $20 Billion on R&D this year, their OS will still be crap and it will still be released untested to the public with an already predetermined upgrade path to service pack 3 that suddenly destroys any backward compatibility forcing you to pay for office upgrades again you MSFT Nazi.

Lets all be thankful that Sun shat on MS from a great height for their infringement of the Java license and lets also be grateful that MS got pissed off about itand wont be shipping any more crap JVM’s

Microsoft may stand out of the line

In reply to Microsoft drops the JVM

Well may be microsoft stand last in the line if it ships there products without JVM. They definitely provide a boost to Sun’s and other third party system which uses jvm or java in any form…

Who needs Nazi’s when you have Microsoft

In reply to Microsoft drops the JVM

Yes we have the makings of the fourth reich here and it seems like everyone is rooting for it execpt for a few of us out here, but the day WILL come when someone will create something as good as if not BETTER than windows and anything that does not have Bill Gates slime all over it will be very good for everyone in the long run……

Will Mean More MS

In reply to Microsoft drops the JVM

Just gives this and other users another reason to hunt for MS alternatives as we tire of the evergrowing MS presence. I use Sun’s version of java already but it still is yet another reason my firm and customers won’t be using or support XP.

MS is making the smart choice

In reply to Microsoft drops the JVM

I can’t figure why anyone believes that MS should be responsible for distributing a competing product or facilitating the use of it. People only expect these things of MS. .NET is MS’s future not java. Do you expect Sun to include the Vb runtimes onSolaris?

VB

In reply to MS is making the smart choice

Awsome point! VB on Solaris. Wish I had thought of it.

MS Play’s Fair

In reply to MS is making the smart choice

You’re absolutely right. There is no reason why company X should support a technology from competitor Y. The only possible exception to this principle would be if company X was shown to have monopolistic control over a particular market and therefore was capable of restricting consumer choice.

XP and no JVM so what!

In reply to Microsoft drops the JVM

Microsofts JVM is outdated anyhow, I’d rather get the plugin and be worrie free! Cheap punch below the belt Microsoft, and why the hell do we need yet another OS??? Better get your act together and provide what customers expect from a so called professional organisation. I sincerely hope that manufactures will support Sun’s efforts to the OEM preinstalled JVM, and otherwise I’ll download the plugin. What will Microsofts answer be to that? A browser upgrade that doesn’t allow the plugin to work perhaps? HUM

Microsoft says for security

In reply to Microsoft drops the JVM

Microsoft claims that this is to make their new product line more secure. Bull?!@#. Microsoft has bigger security problems to deal with then JVM. This is simply another attempt to take command of the market.

An interesting article:
http://enterprise.cnet.com/enterprise/0-6119541-7-6962496.html?tag=sd

Bad Busines Decision

In reply to Microsoft drops the JVM

I can only hope the industry now helps Sun to help us, to help ourselves.

If the large companies in the industry play the corporate market like children, then is only the question how long will it take before the TCO is too high or the cost of development too high and then following happens:

A mountain is more or less only a bunch of rocks if you take away to much of the foundation you get a landslide. Goverments have tried to control markets in the past and have failed miserably.

Time is a bitter teacher, the only losers are the companies and the people that hit the wall when the bottom of the market falls out.

M’soft will shoot itself in the foot

In reply to Microsoft drops the JVM

Having just dropped IE V6 (which runs like a dog) and switched to Opera V6 (the latest) which doesn’t have Java runtime included, I don’t see it as being a problem for anyone. It is just SOOO easy to download the Java s’ware needed to provide scripting,applet etc functions from the Sun site. Opera V6 is also lightening fast compared to Internet Explorer in most of its iterations. One day M/S will start to write efficient code.
…Keith (A fairly cluey user *grin*)

[Author]

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