Microsoft's not decertifying NT4 MCSEs

All of the companies I've worked for this year use W2k. None of them had any plans to remain on NT4, so being certified in NT 4 only doesn't matter.

The issue of the "paper" tech is another one, but suffice it to say that those who have certs but no experience are less value than those who have no certs but quality experience. Someone who had NT 4 certs and quality experience is much more valuable than someone who had W2k certs and little or no experience.

The only constant in this business is that Microsoft is always changing the rules. It is great to see them adjust based on the needs of the people and companies that provide them with a living. Let's all remember that when it comes down to the XP decision. To buy or not to buy. Office or Windows for that case. If we're not happy with the way MS does things, close the wallet. That seems to get the message across. As far as I'm concerned XP should be a free upgrade to all users of the 9x platform.

The downside to all this is that retiring NT4.0 would have flushed most of the paper MCSE's out of the system. Something the program needed.

Great News! I've been busting my chops studying and upgrading to win2k for months...and my company isn't planning to migrate to win2k anytime soon. There is tremndous value in a NT 4.0 MCSE. It'a great product and will still be around for years!

I think part of Microsoft's decision is due to the fact that many companies haven't been hopping on the migration and 2000 certification bandwagon as soon as they hoped. The OS is a huge leap in an new direction, involves re-training, re-designing, and re-implmenting your whole network infastrucutre. Not to mention the incredable $$ involved. MS has turned off many companies with it's new licensing/cost structure. Another reason why my company is implmenting Novell 5.1 instead of MS 2000...at least for now.

I think that the NT 4.0 / 2000 MCSE designation is a great idea. NT 4.0 MCSE's should expire at some point but not now. It's way to early.

Don't get me wrong 2000 is a great product and it will do well, but it still has to prove itself - and microsoft has to stop pumping out os's and let us all catch our breath so we can decide which techno road our business needs follow.

Blair Kovacs 4.0 MCSE + Internet, 2000 MCP, CCNA, A+, i-Net+

The night before I passed my 1st nt exam, I heard the news of MS cancelling nt 4 certs.
The day before I pass my w2k pro exam I read this.
What's next, I am wondering alreading what will happen I go for xp ?

Leopold

I have to admit, I tend to be a Microsoft turncoat... Three years ago, I was a solid Microsoft supporter, and I was one of the ones chomping at the bit to get my hands on Win2K. I studied hard and got experience when/where I could, and earned my MCSE in NT4. However, with Microsoft's actions over the past few years, I have become disgusted with the way they do business. Since then, I have begun to research several non-Microsoft solutions, and have found solid solutions in Linux and Unix.However, I know the score... I must keep my skills current. I have strong feelings against Windows XP, primarily because of the Product Activation scam and the fact that Microsoft is creating the 'latest, greatest' operating systems every 18 months. For those reasons, the corporate world (or the average Joe Consumer) will not be embracing XP in the way that Microsoft is banking on. I do feel that Windows 2000 is better than its precedessors, and it has most of the tools that system administrators need to effectively administer Windows 2000 networks. Therefore, Windows 2000 skills will be valuable for years to come, and will be more in demand than skills in NT4 and XP.

Most companies have migrated from NT4 to Win2K and therefore I will continue with my plan to upgrade to Win2K MCSE before the end of the year. Unless the marketplace swings in the direction of XP (unlikely), I will not certify on any XP-based products.

I can feel a little better about upgrading, because I nowknow that I'm upgrading because I feel it's the best thing to do and not because I HAVE to.

I think microsoft should make up there mind.. Either you are going to raise the bar and force people like Cisco does to recertiy and keep good standards or just be like other companys like comptia and let everyone and their mothers and dogs get thecertification..
Very bad idea.. Losing creditability with the technicians and engineers.

One side you have the point of the hardcore test takers, oh I mean..."certification experts" (you know the ones who judge your skill by your alphabet soup). I kid of course...lighten up..geez (tough crowd)...but seriously... :) Some make a good point with keeping current. If you don't force cert holders to re-certify the cert looses its integrity and value.

I don't think so. Because its not the lack of enforcing re-certification that de-values something, its the cheating and making the certsso easy as that you only need book knowledge to pass them that makes them lose integrity and value.

The other spin, which I admit is the one that I endorse, is the practical side of the issue. Scenario : You are alrady employed and have been for years at a company you enjoy working for and as far as you can tell you don't have reason to believe you should be worried about layoffs (knock on wood) anytime soon...your company doesn't use the technology either at all or to a degree enough to warrant the cost, time and effort for certifying in said technology... So then...what's the logic of re-certification? Just so one doesn't "offend" those that believe in re-certification, no matter what?

What's our skills and education for anyway - to make a decent pay right? Well if you are getting paid and everything's fine as is with no plans (or justified need) for upgrading a technology - why certify for the sake of it? That's my point. Don't waste time, money and effort for stuff you don'tHAVE to have... save those resources for the technologies you really could benefit education/training/certification in.

later.

I gave up certification in 4.0 because MS said it would expire. I didn't (and won't) persue 2000 Cert for the same reason. MS and I both loose.
And if 4.0 is not going to expire then the tests should be made available for anyone that wants to continue take them. Why can't I be MCSE4?

Wouldn't you know it? I was certified on 3.51. I had until June to upgrade to NT 4.0.
I did not BECAUSE I knew it would expire in December. Now I find that I could have upgraded to 4.0 and W2K when I complete it next month...
Right after I certified to 3.51, my company moved up to 4.0. I know more about 4.0 than any of them but never certified because I knew they'd change again soon.

Can you imagine what kind of market there would have been for MCSE W2K (only 47,000 worldwide) had MS not recinded this? Boy that'll cost me a penny or two - but it sure helps Billy Boy. Thanks Bill.

Sometimes you're the windshield - sometimes you're the bug!

Hi,
Today when I suddenly read this message that MCSE's NT 4.0 certification's will continue at WWW.teshrepublic.com site I am feeling really very-2 happy.
Otherwise I was confused that should I continue with MS OS or start getting some other certifications which are not decertifying there certificates so soon.Because I was worrying if I clear MCSE 2000 certification & then when MS comes with a new upgraded os they are going to retire there MCSE 2000 ceertification also.
Now I am a bit relaxed.
Thanks to the decision makers at Microsoft who gave a thought to old MCSE's on NT 4.0 track also.
Once again thanks for continuing the MCSE 4.0 certification.

Even before MS did their best to devalue NT4 certs there were too many MCSE holders who had worse 'real' skills than those without any certs.

Certs are just another money-machine for ms and this is a climb-down of monumental porportions - maybe the lack of excitement about XP, worries over Product Activation key crap and licensing thumbscrews in the IT community has got them thinking.....(as soon as they get the feeling they have got their hooks into people/companies more deeply again they will probably decide to revoke NT4 MCSE again....how can we possible trust them ?)

MS has seen the writting on the wall - people were getting tired of being pushed around and rapped for more money. They took a stand - made their points known - when MS heard enough of a cry from the woods - it was in their financial best interest to pull back.

Just as they did with their crazy licensing for imaged PC's - What company would pay for two licenses for a single machine.

I guess MS is getting its head out of its ass and finally smelling what has been trying to shovel.... Nowif they are smarter - they will drope the licensing of XP from having to be certified over a web connection. "Oh that is to protect copyrights." Come on - MS - you know its for spyware - you are installing on the XP OS - to ensure that people aren'tusing other MS products illegally.

People talk about the government intrusion into your life... but they don't care about Big Bully Billy "the nerd" Gates.

Let's face it, it would be an insult to take away something that was earned. Other professions don't simply adopt this policy and IT shouldn't be any different. In my opinion, it wouldn't have made a difference either way. Microsoft will find other ways to make $$$.

I had just passed my final MCSE NT 4 exam on Tuesday (exchange 5.5). I sent them an e-mail early wednesday morning (the next day) asking what the requirements were to keep the MCSE, and later that evening they announced this :-).

All I can say is (to others here): "You're welcome", and (to microsoft) "Thank You."

-Rob
(The last hold-out to become an NT4 MCSE , and incidentally, no I have never failed a microsoft exam, I just took my time so that I was prepared when I sat for eachtest.)

http://www.robwilkens.com

So glad to hear Microsoft hasn't shut their ears and closed their minds to the ideas, if not demands, of their support system and customers.
I, for one, am "Upgrading" (and that is what it is, like it or not) from NT4 to W2K. But now I can reordermy priorities whithout suffering the wrath of MS.

So M$ changed their minds once again and decided to grace us NT MCSE's with their kindness,eh? I for one just don't care anymore what M$ says or what they tell me I **have** to do. I was planning to go right on being an MCSE as of January 1, 2002,so to hell with them and their nonsense.

I have become so burned out on M$ shinanigans that I have been pushing clients to Linux Mandrake whenever possible, and to free copies of....er, well....whatever. So M$, stick it where the sun don't shine, because after nearly 15 years of working with and supporting your products, I just don't give a s**t anymore!

As a MCSE/NT4 since '98, it was a deep lack of justice to rule out the cert as MS wanted to. Now things are getting correct. Why should upgrade if the title would be the same, and there would be no further benefits: no new logo, no new diploma, no new Technet for a year, just "hold" the certification status? Studying, burn-out many nights and weekends for that? It appeared to be dumb.

Now there's an incentive. Now it may be reasonable to get the NEW certification as MCSE in Windows 2000.

This is my own and personal view.

A typical Microsoft lcensing plan lasts about 2 - years.
The rate at which their NOSs change is getting shorter and shorter. Supposedly 'We' ask for a major change in the user interface with ever new OS.
A Decision by Mirosoft does not last very long. I do not expact this one to last either. Within a year, they will be looking to de-certify SOMEONE (they even admit they are 'looking' at the certification process.)
There is no money for Microsoft in keeping older certifications. Plus, what about all ther reasons they 'wanted' to retire the old certs. Did all the 'paper' MCSE's suddenly emigrate?

We all should have seen it coming. Was it not too obvious that Microsoft didn't have a leg to stand on with the decertification threats? Nevertheless, many of us have fallen to that well-executed sales-promoting trick and quickly upgraded their certification to the W2K track for fear of losing it. I wonder what the US DOJ might have to say about that...but then again, they've already lost one battle against the MS Giant and might not want to stir things up so soon. So, to summarize:
1. WindowsNT 4.0 will exist for quite a while. No rush.
2. The MS Active Directory will NEVER come close to Novell's NDS. Remember that.
3. LINUX. A tripple Hurray for the open-source boys (and girls...)
Have a nice day,
Mr Nanny.

Let's face it, MS will continue to strong-arm the PC/LAN user community and service industries into purchasing MS products and services as long as we blindly follow with open wallets -- purchasing anything they produce that promises a "trouble-free"future.

MS tries to make us beleive that a hard-earned certification will be worthless so that they can push technical people to certify in the latest system. Why? Because no support people = no sales.

Those of us who know better understand that MS network operating systems (NT and W2000) are very similar except for the latest "gadgets" (AD for one) that we'll need to understand.

So I say, keep your NT certification and take a course in AD. Take the test if you like. Add those toyour experience and you will be fine.

When I have issues with MS, I keep in mind the we are MS's customers. We customers should not let MS lead us blindly.

When Microsoft made the announcement it didn't make sense to me. The current scheme does.

After the intial announcement I had decided not to pursue any new Microsoft Certifications but rather go with Sun, Cisco, etc where the technology may expire but the certification does not. I believe others may have come to the same decision. Now I will again consider new Microsoft Certifications.

Mike Griffin

I am happy for all the MCSE's. I believe that Microsoft has too much power in deciding what to do with the future of IT professionals.

I am new in the field (Nov 1999) and I very much wanted it to obtain my MCSE certification. I decide that I didn't want to spend a lot of time and money to obtain an MCSE certification for a year and few months.

Now Microsoft changes its mind and reverses its decision. I could be an MCSE now. Right now I have my A+ Certification and I am studying for the NETWORK+ examn.

With WINDOWS XP in the horizons, I am not so sure if I should attain an MCSE 2000.

I very much want to be certified, but the dust doesn't seem to settle in yet. What do you think, should I try to attain my MCSE 2000 anyway or should I wait for Microsoft decision for WINDOWS 2000?

Ramon

There ws never a need to "retire" any certs, because the market takes care of that on its own. When no servers run on NT4.0, then we no longer need this cert. On the other hand, not everyone (busines enterprises, educational entities, government, non-profits, et al) needs to be on the bleeding edge of technology. Many survive, and even thrive, well removed from the edge.

I'm not talking complacency, I'm talking relevance.

I say let the certifications stand as the the testament to the skills and competencies acquired, honed and mastered, that they are. Planned obsolescense only works in certain situations. The market clearly has indicated that this is not one of those situations.

It's hard to motivate yourself or your company to upgrade your certification by a deadline when you KNOW your company isn't updating it's software! I can't imagine too many companies jumping at the prospect of spending thousands of dollars for a new OS when what they have works or when so much controversy is floating around about MS to begin with. MS needs to take a step back on a lot of their ideas and start considering "real world" customers if they want to maintain or grow their user base and customer approval. They aren't in the position to be bullying their customers right now because I haven't seen too many MS customers who are exactly thrilled with their latest business practices.

Microsoft: you are FINALLY making some sense, now follow through with your other business thoughts and you'll be a MUCH cooler company!!

I think its great for those that are already certified, but I think there are several people like myself who were hung out to dry.

I was three tests into my NT 4.0 certification when I read about the news. I had just spent 8,000 dollars for classes on NT. I had no choice but to finish the classes and start buying books to study for WIN2K. I have finished two of the WIN2K tests, but I always felt that Microsoft screwed over those that were halfway throught the NT 4.0 certification process. Especially since they went back on their promise that any certification would be good through the next two upgrades + six months. Now I hear that they are changing their minds. I think its good for those that already have their certification, butI think its lousy for those like me who were halfway through the tests.

MS changing their mind about making their test obsolete just tells me that the whole idea of certifications is bizarre to begin with. I have two minds about it.

Certification is good as a discriminator because it does take some effort to pass a certification test, and not everyone does it. (I got A+ Certified as self-defense. I got fed up with tech people who in all actuality knew less than me arguing about things they knew nothing about. Now *I* am the expert ;>) Certification should mean that the person with the certification actually has an understanding about the product.

The bad thing about certification, and it really is the question that no one asks, is why it exists at all. Why should anyone have to be certified to use a product that theoretically any human being is supposed to be able to use? Computer as appliance, right? No one gets certified to work on toasters.

Let's face it: Windows in any flavor is a *product*, and nothing more. If certification is required, then the whole premise on which we base the computer industry should be challenged and changed. (I do not ascribe to the "computer as appliance" idea. A modern computer is proving itself to be too complex to be user friendly.) Either MS makes their products more efficient and user friendly, so certification is not required, or we start to admit that computers are not for everybody, but only the chosen IT few who are certified.

I think it is great that MS has decided not to decertify MCSEs on NT4.

I think MS should have multiple MCSEs Titles.
MCSE-NT4, MCSE-2000, MCSE-XP, MCSE-2003?
Simply because the expertise required to even pass the ceritfication dosen't disappear. I'm sure the systems will be around for awhile also.

I was really glad that Microsoft pulled their heads out of their money piles and realized where it was coming from. I am a consultant AND full-time student, and the prospects for me upgrading to a full Win2K MCSE in the short amount of time and still finishing my Networking & Telecommunications BBA were virtually nil. It was much more important for me to get my degree than to upgrade to Windows 2000, especially since most of my customers still work with Windows NT. For them, (and for me) there was no positive Return On Investment for going to Windows 2000 so early.

I am also excited about the MCSA. Now, I can show people that I still know Windows NT, that I am working on Windows 2000, but it's not going to take me forever to get. Since I have to pay for my certifications, it's VERY important to me that they generate the work required to pay for the time and money required to get them.

This doesn't mean I won't try for Linux, though...

In many fields (medical, legal, teachers) it is required that individuals continually update their education in order to maintain their licenses or credentials. I notice that Cisco expires CCNAs after a couple of years.

Why then shouldn't MS require updates from the people they vouch for through certification, who support their products, and who benefit from MS allowing them to associate themselves with the MS name?

It took me one month and $500 to update my certification last fall. I have now no better chance to get a job because of my certification since their are percentagewise mostly inexperienced and paper mcses, many of whom would have disappeared in a few weeks.

Now because of a lot of whining current MCSEs MS has waffled. I realize that their are many experienced MCSEs out there but with the number of unqualified MCSEs, most of the benefit of having this certification is negated.

What I think they should have done all along is denote the certification by OS such as MCSE NT4 or MCSE 2000.

Just my vent...

As an MCSE who obtained his MCSE in 2000 and was oblivious to the possible decommissioning of the certification before signing up for the class in the fall of 1999, I am pleased that Microsoft has recinded their unpopular decision.

Seen by many that I spoke to as a way to force clients to purchase the WIN2K software, it was not only damaging to Microsoft, but to IT Professionals alike.

As the Network Administrator/IT Specialist of a modest-sized Domain in a large network, I am pleased that my upgrading will be by choice...not by fire.

Do I intend to upgrade still? You betcha!! An IT professional not upgrading his/her skills is a waste of time and money to any employer.